var json_comments = new Array("
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Ouze
March 4, 2010 11:25 AM
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Y'all forgot Brawndo.

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6 replies
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supergaijin
March 4, 2010 5:04 PM
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Mmmm. Just now I had a craving for a Gentlemen's Latte...

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robetler
March 4, 2010 4:41 PM
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Carl's Jr.: F*** You, I'm Eating!

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JoeDawson
March 4, 2010 1:17 PM
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Because electrolytes... *light bulb* are what plants crave!

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mythago
March 4, 2010 11:26 AM
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Well, it's probably not why most Consumerist posters are fat, but it is a big reason that poverty and obesity are strongly correlated in the US.

If you don't think so, try being extremely poor for a while (no, not \"I don't have enough to buy BioShock2 till next month\" poor). When you have $10 for groceries, you pick your calories based on what's going to fill you up for the least amount of money - you don't blow that $10 on a box of organic frisee salad.

That's especially true when the pinnacle of your local grocery choices is a crappy, out-of-date Safeway, and your most likely options are tiny, overpriced 'convenience' stores.

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RedwoodFlyer
March 8, 2010 10:32 PM
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Jw, how much do you pay each month for the internet?

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sarah81
March 5, 2010 1:14 PM
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I have 20 -50 dollars for two weeks of groceries. In my part of Canada food is taxed (high) so it can get tight depending on the season. I usually scour the interwebs for the cheapest deals locally. I can get fresh stuff from Farmers markets in the summer and fall but come winter everything is shipped in or hot house grown. Usually I get on sale pasta or bulk rice, frozen veggies, beans, spaghetti sauce and multi vitamins. As soon as I make more money I am never eating frozen veggies again and if I see one more noodle I may cry. I can't wait to buy crisp apples in SPRING (yah out of season baby) and chicken breast. I refuse to eat Mr. Noodles or any other side kick salt laden trash. The part that sucks? The generation of poor is growing because wages are not going up but cost of living is. I either move home and ruin my parents twilight years and my dignity or suck it up.

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veronykah
March 4, 2010 10:55 PM
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I find you idea strange.
I have always found meat to be expensive.
I rarely, if ever, eat it.
Looking at a package of pork chops vs beans or tofu its no contest.
Meat isn't cheap.
A pound of dried beans is less than $2.00 and makes way more than a pound of any meat.

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Whata_kBear
March 7, 2010 10:45 PM
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In the discount/clearance meat section of the local Safeway, I can find 1.5 pounds of ground sirloin for $1.50.

Then again, I also bought a 50 pound bag of rice for $20. I've been eating that same bag of rice for almost two years now.

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HogwartsProfessor
March 4, 2010 5:14 PM
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Yeah, and the only way to not be fat on a budget like that is if you can't afford carfare and have to walk everywhere.

But we can't do that here because of winter weather. Nuts!

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AnthonyC
March 4, 2010 11:39 AM
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With a Costco-sized bag of rice you can get as high as 5000 calories/dollar. That's the highest I've ever seen. After that, though, Top Ramen and pasta are next.

*Then* you get to some milk and cheese products, and some meats, then bread, still before any fruits and veggies.

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mythago
March 4, 2010 11:59 AM
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I don't think Costco has many stores in the projects.

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Emperor Norton I
March 4, 2010 3:13 PM
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Just #380, Lincoln Park in Chicago, which is right across the street from the projects!

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VRotundo
March 4, 2010 1:46 PM
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Most of America's poor don't live in the projects. People in the projects are luck if they even have a supermarket nearby.

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hotdogsunrise
March 4, 2010 2:11 PM
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It's so easy to forget the rural poor.

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NeverLetMeDown
March 4, 2010 12:09 PM
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They just opened one in Harlem a couple of months ago. 117th and the FDR

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ChemicallyInert
March 4, 2010 12:35 PM
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Not mathematics. One counterexample does not disprove the statement.

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Smashville
March 4, 2010 12:20 PM
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Oh good. That helps the people in Alabama.

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Etoiles
March 4, 2010 11:35 AM
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Yup. I went through a period of my life where it was a good week if I had $30 to spend for groceries (in NYC -- where your dollar doesn't go far at all), and about half of the 50 pounds I'd worked so hard to lose crept back on. 3/$1 pasta or big bags of rice keep you full, and peanut butter is cheap protein, but that's not exactly compatible with calorie-counting.

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LESSTHANKIND
March 4, 2010 12:15 PM
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I live in NYC and don't spend that much on food in a month. And no, I'm not kidding. I've just taught myself to live on homemade soup made with vegetable broth, spinach, corn, carrots, lentils, barley, beans and sometimes mushrooms (yay crockpot!), oatmeal, bags of rice and cheap pasta and veggies. All on sale and with coupons and store card.

Luckily I'm a vegetarian, and I also don't drink milk, use butter or eat eggs and cheese. (And I'm not a \"skeleton,\" either... I also happen to be the laziest person on Earth.)

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Cameraman
March 4, 2010 11:49 AM
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Thank goodness the unions help keep Costco out of NYC, or otherwise you could feed yourself for a month on $30!

Heaven help you with a 50 lb bag of rice on the L train, of course.

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Mecharine
March 4, 2010 12:58 PM
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What're you talking about? There's a Costco in Queens and in Harlem now.

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ArcanaJ
March 4, 2010 11:45 AM
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Thanks to you, I suddenly feel better about the times I have to shop at the dollar store. Compared to a bodega, the dollar store is a goddamn grocery palace.

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bluevideo
March 4, 2010 11:32 AM
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It's too bad they bunched meat and dairy together (though I understand the logistics probably behind it).

I'd bet that a huuuuuge chunk of that is dairy. Milk is almost as subsidized as public transit, it seems...

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Julia789
March 4, 2010 7:24 PM
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Meat and dairy must go together. Dairy cows have to get pregnant and give birth to produce the milk. The male calves are sold for meal or raised until \"beef\" age. Spent dairy cows are butchered for soup meat or pet food. Even dairy farmers are in the meat business.

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Cant_stop_the_rock
March 4, 2010 12:05 PM
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Yeah, I don't imagine there are substantial \"meat subsidies\"

Vegetables aren't subsidized because they're profitable without subsidies.

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bluevideo
March 4, 2010 1:12 PM
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Vegetables are still indirectly subsidized... I won't go full-on Lou Dobbs (no, really) -- but if you've ever lived in California veggie farmland, you know the (migrant) workers who harvest them get paid next to nothing, and thus are often on the receiving end of public benefits especially off-season. Your veggies still cost you less than if they bore their full societal cost.

Not making a racial argument... the same has been said of Wal-Mart workers...

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bluevideo
March 4, 2010 12:58 PM
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Vegetables are still indirectly subsidized... I won't go full-on Lou Dobbs (no, really) -- but if you've ever lived in California veggie farmland, you know the (migrant) workers who harvest them get paid next to nothing, and thus are often on the receiving end of public benefits especially off-season. Your veggies still cost you less than if they bore their full societal cost.

Not making a racial argument... the same has been said of Wal-Mart workers...

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bluevideo
March 4, 2010 1:18 PM
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Grr! That'll teach me for reloading after getting a 404.

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yasth
March 4, 2010 12:49 PM
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Three are rather substantial meat subsidies, most of them are indirect though.

Feed corn for example is massively subsidized to be grown (this is probably the biggest direct one, remember your chickens are pretty much corn, and beef past a certain age likewise). Other types of feed are quite subsidized as well (with the US also keeping substantial reserves to enforce a ceiling on the market) Livestock insurance is subsidized. Livestock uses of federal land have lower rent than other uses. Tax rates on land owned for livestock purposes are lower.

As a matter of fact cattle ranches are often used as tax shelters.

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chargernj
March 4, 2010 12:45 PM
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That's why we need to change how we subsidize agriculture. Fruits and vegetables are more nutritionally dense and should therefore be made more affordable to the masses.

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AustinTXProgrammer
March 4, 2010 12:49 PM
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Maybe get the subsidies out entirely, and let the market actually work?

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veg-o-matic
March 4, 2010 6:43 PM
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Ok, so then still only rich people will be able to afford healthy vegetables..

Also: \"the free market\" isn't real. There's no such thing. Even Adam Smith knew it.

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Nytmare
March 4, 2010 1:35 PM
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Simplistic, obvious, sounds fine in theory. But the model of how this idea will work in real life seems to be missing entirely.

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CheritaChen
March 4, 2010 1:10 PM
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Your thoughts are clear and logical. You must vacate the Internet immediately.

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pecan 3.14159265
March 4, 2010 11:34 AM
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What about meat salad? Does that cost more than a Big Mac?

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Trae
March 4, 2010 11:35 AM
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Mostly I'm just fat because I sit on my expanding ass all day and never move around, actually.

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1 replies
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DangerMouth
March 4, 2010 4:01 PM
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haha, but true. I put on weight when I went from on-my-feet-all-day retail/warehouse jobs to more office oriented jobs. I had to actively try to get the exercise I wasn't getting when I wasn't running around all day. Also, I discovered that it's really easy to nom with one hand and type or phone call with the other. I think the boredom factor really comes into play when you sit at a desk all day.

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clint07
March 4, 2010 11:39 AM
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To be fair, I don't agree with the Federal Nutrition Recommendations at all. That high of a percentage of grains to everything else is asking for diabetes without a very close eye on things like total calories.

A much better breakdown would be (IMO)
sugar
grains
proteins
veggies

It still wouldn't help though since a big mac or a box of spaghetti are both cheaper than some broccoli.

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7 replies
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Julia789
March 4, 2010 7:27 PM
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The grains are fine if they're not processed. Brown rice vs. white rice, whole wheat vs. white bread. Oatmeal vs. cream of rice for breakfast.

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ninjapoodles
March 4, 2010 1:56 PM
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Yup, that's exactly the sort of nutrition pyramid that would make sense to me, too, with grains right up there below sugar. Why the huge emphasis on grains? I don't get it. We don't need them to survive at all.

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Eyebrows McGee (now with double the baby!)
March 4, 2010 4:31 PM
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Most first worlders get substantially too much protein and not enough grain. Brown grains are chock full o' fiber.

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thisistobehelpful
March 4, 2010 5:07 PM
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But we don't need the grains anymore. They used to be great when you worked hard physical labor for 12 hours a day - calorie dense, filling, cheap and easy to store in large quantities for the winter. Now it doesn't make sense to eat grains like we used to. It makes more sense to fill up on veggies now.

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KeithIrwin
March 4, 2010 11:52 AM
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I don't know where you shop, but generally a bunch of broccoli is cheaper than a Big Mac. Bunches of broccoli and $2.99 at my supermarket and Big Macs are like $3.50 at McDonalds.

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Psipsina
March 7, 2010 8:25 PM
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But a bunch of broccoli doesn't have enough calories or protein to keep you going for the day. When you look at food costs and poverty, you have to look at cost per calorie, not cost per pound.

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RvLeshrac
March 4, 2010 1:02 PM
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Costs me $1 for a burger. Budget-wise, a Big Mac can be like a brick of gold compared to the tin-foil of a Hamburger or Double Cheeseburger.

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pecan 3.14159265
March 4, 2010 11:44 AM
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Unfortunately, a box of instant mac and cheese is cheaper than broccoli. Doesn't stop me from buying a ton of broccoli though. I love it. I usually chop it all up into pieces so I can steam it in the microwave and have it for lunch at work. Lately I've been forgetting though...that and I have no broccoli.

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ihollywould
March 4, 2010 11:41 AM
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I'm a vegan and it's expensive beyond belief. Granted, there are some cheap foods, but my bank account has much less meat in it now that my diet has none.

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9 replies
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atomic
March 5, 2010 1:17 PM
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Wow. I went vegan and my grocery bill was cut by 40%+. I actually did the math.

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Ben
March 5, 2010 9:31 AM
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Then I'd have to say you're a pretty shitty vegan. Are you only buying pre-packaged TV dinners or something? I'm a vegan, too, and it's no more expensive than when I wasn't.

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ihollywould
March 11, 2010 5:58 PM
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Gee THANK YOU for criticizing my lifestyle when you don't even know me. I'm very recently vegan and live in an area with a lack of niche marketing; it's not always easy to find new and different foods that fit into my new diet.

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subtlefrog
March 4, 2010 6:58 PM
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I'm vegan, and I spend money on it now because we have it. Before, when I was living on $14k/ year in Miami, I didn't. And I was fine. Pick and choose wisely. It's not that hard. If you're spending that much money on food and complaining about it, you're doing it wrong.

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veg-o-matic
March 4, 2010 7:18 PM
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Look at me, all agreeing with subtlefrog again.

It can be done, but like bargain shopping for a SAD, it takes a little looking. Our supermarkets and internets aren't set up to show us vegan-friendly deals. The system works against us, but that doesn't mean we can't still make it work.

One thing I stopped wasting money on was prepackaged vegan stuff. There's a niche market for us, and it's priced niche. I got all excited to see supercool vegan products and had no problem plunking down the cash for them like shiny new delicious toys... but after a while realized it just wasn't worth it.

I don't wanna go all \"make it myself\" up in here, but we do buy alot of dry storage stuff in bulk and make our own almond milk when time permits. A good bulk foods section and tightly lidded glass jars can be your best friends.

We manage to eat well (and deliciously: I just made roasted almond and chocolate chip cookies) on federal poverty income levels ... in Boston.

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ihollywould
March 11, 2010 6:05 PM
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See, this is my point exactly. I am newly vegan and am still learning about stuff. Much of my money has gone into buying new cooking supplies, cookbooks, and stuff that is technically vegan but still very similar to what I used to eat. What I was trying to say is that when you're being more conscious about your diet and not just dashing into a store and grabbing a bag of chips and frozen pizza rolls anymore, the money does start to add up - especially if you live in an area that doesn't cater to these niche markets. YES, I can go into a grocery store ad get veggies and fruits and grains, but I've found myself going to the grocery store EVERY DAY to buy things at their freshest. Gas money, anyone? Time? Effort? I'm not being a \"shitty vegan\" just because I'm not yet knowledgeable enough to know all the little secrets of teleportation and finding hidden foods in the store. Give me a break.

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blandname
March 4, 2010 4:22 PM
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You could save a fortune if you eased back a bit and became a regular vegetarian. I'd wager that things like gelatin and dairy contribute only negligibly to animal slaughter.

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veg-o-matic
March 4, 2010 6:59 PM
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Uh.. you're joking, right? 'Cause you'd lose that wager.

Do you know where veal comes from? Dairy cows' babies. It might be cheaper to go with the mass-produced over-hormoned dairy products, but I'd rather take that hit than have to put into my body all the sadness that is continual forced breeding on a dairy farm.

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searonson
March 4, 2010 1:25 PM
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Bean.

Learn to love them. And buy them dry.

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ihollywould
March 4, 2010 4:19 PM
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I do just that. But I wouldn't like to subsist SOLELY on beans.

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evilpete
March 4, 2010 11:42 AM
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I'm fat cause I sit around all day reading consumerist articles ( and hitting F5 a lot )

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ChemicallyInert
March 4, 2010 1:11 PM
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I run on a treadmill as I do it. Although admittedly with this method, I read consumerist and hit F5, F4, F6, E,R,4,5,6,Y, and T a lot.

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EnergyStarr
March 4, 2010 11:42 AM
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can you cite sources?

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1 replies
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Hoss
March 4, 2010 4:32 PM
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I know you're asking to give credit to the orginator -- but it you're interested in the subject, a good start is a documentary called \"Food Inc\".

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balilanai
March 4, 2010 11:43 AM
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You're fat not because of federal subsidies.
You're fat because of what you choose to eat.
Choice is the important word missing .

Eating a cow will make you the size of a pig.
Eating a pg will make you resemble a pig.

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poehitman
March 11, 2010 9:19 AM
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Actually, I'm not sure if I'm what you would consider \"fat\". I'm 6'0\", 196 lbs. But once I began taking two medications (Cymbalta and Lyrica - antidepressant and nerve pain medication, respectively), I gained 35lbs in like 6 months. I'd always been pretty stable between 140 and 160 lbs before I began taking them. I've leveled out now between 190 and 200 lbs. I don't eat very much and what I do eat, most people would consider \"healthy\" for the most part. I eat Subway a lot, but it's always from their healthy menu. Sometimes I indulge in potato chips, pizza, other stuff like that. Most days I don't even have meals. I just nibble throughout the day. My most frequent snack is the strawberry flavored Kelloggs Special K cereal bars. Supposed to be only 90 calories each.

One annoying side effect from my medication is that I am ALWAYS thirsty. I'm almost never without some kind of drink on me. So I'm guessing at least some of that 35 lbs is liquid retention.

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veg-o-matic
March 4, 2010 6:49 PM
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From a vegan to.. whatever the hell you are: SHUT THE HELL UP.

You make no sense. Stop it.

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pantheonoutcast
March 4, 2010 12:28 PM
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Eh, no. You're fat because you don't exercise. I eat 6000+ calories a day - full breakfast, lunch, dinner - sometimes two dinners. And yet, I'm 6', 185 pounds. Why? Because I don't spend my entire day sitting around playing video games or other sedentary endeavors.

A healthy diet includes exercise, regardless of how much or what type of food one puts in one's body.

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mythago
March 4, 2010 3:48 PM
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Being 6', 185# is part of the reason you can eat so many calories. Muscle mass is a virtuous cycle.

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ChemicallyInert
March 4, 2010 12:42 PM
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Jesus F. Christ, what do you run 8 miles a day at 8 min./mile? Either that or 6000+ calories is a gross overestimate of what you're actually eating. Walking is not sufficient to undo that and keep you where you are unless you're walking at a brisk pace pretty much all freakin' day.

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kalaratri
March 4, 2010 3:29 PM
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Many runners do at least 10 miles a day, and an 8 minute mile is just about average.

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hegemonyhog
March 7, 2010 3:41 PM
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Even doing 8-10 miles a day isn't going to burn 3-4,000 extra calories each day.

Unless you're training for a rigorous athletic event (i.e., marathon training on a very active schedule), there's simply no reason to eat that many calories a day and no way to do it without gaining weight.

Plus, 6,000 calories a day still costs a fair amount of money.

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Smashville
March 4, 2010 2:13 PM
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It's quite possible that he does run 8 miles a day at 8 miles a minute. Why would that be so far fetched?

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jerry101
March 6, 2010 12:43 AM
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wow...8 miles a minute?! So, its possible to run at a rate of 480 miles per hour?

Damn. Are you the Flash?

If so...can I borrow some of that juice?

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ChemicallyInert
March 4, 2010 3:53 PM
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It's not, but most people aren't runners- which gets to the root of the whole poverty-obesity thing. Poor people don't generally have as much leisure time and exercise is harder to fit into a schedule.

Asserting that everyone should be running eight & eight daily is asking a bit much-which was my point- not that that exercise level is unbelievable. (I run myself- I know that's generally acceptable for runners.)

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Loias says: Poor choices made by the OP do not excuse poor choices made by other parties.
March 4, 2010 12:24 PM
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Poor people buy what they can afford. Numerous studies show the relationship between poverty and obesity. You need to do research before you speak.

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ChemicallyInert
March 4, 2010 12:49 PM
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True, true. Whether or not we can agree on causation- the correlation is well established. Unfortunately comments like balilanai's seem to assert \"poor people are obese because they are stupid.\" Unlikely.

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Tasty Consumer
March 4, 2010 12:19 PM
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I bet that hot girl in your avatar eats meat. I also bet you're fatter than her.

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NarcolepticGirl
March 4, 2010 12:08 PM
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Almost all of the vegetarians I know are of average size or overweight. One is small-framed and skinny. She also had/has? anemia.

You are ridiculous.

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mandys08
March 4, 2010 12:58 PM
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haha. im super fat but still anemic

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kyle4
March 4, 2010 12:14 PM
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Lol, is it bad that after getting to the end of any meat related post I know this person will be waiting?

Just to feed the troll today, I eat a lot of meat products. Almost every single day. There are times where I will eat three double cheeseburgers at a time. I'm twenty, in good health and [according to family] look like I'm greatly underweight. I'm 5'9, 145 pounds and a size 32 waist. There goes your theory.

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jasonq
March 4, 2010 4:01 PM
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Yeah, dude, I ate like that when I was 20. I weighed more like 165, but I'm a bit taller, too. I could put away a greasy 16\" pizza with breakfast bacon and pepperoni with a couple Bud tallboys. (Still can, actually). Good times. High carbs+high fat=high calories=big gut.

Of course, that sort of eating and bad genetics led to an angioplasty w/stent at age 31, so what do I know? And I now weigh 205. Still don't look it, thanks to the build I was blessed with, but I look at my wedding photos from 1996 and go, \"Damn, I was skinny.\"

And balialanai needs some new material, stat.

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DangerMouth
March 4, 2010 3:48 PM
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Yeah, that was me at 20 too. Low cholesterol and under average BP. Ate meat all the time, healthy, fit, etc.

Just be aware that your metabolism will change with age, and some health issues are genetically inclined. At fifty, I have to work at keeping my BP and cholesteral in the high side of normal range. We have tons of heart disease in my family. On the bright side, not one of them has ever had cancer. YMMV.

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ChemicallyInert
March 4, 2010 1:02 PM
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You can be thin as a reed and still get severe hypertension and cholesterol cloggin' up your arteries. You're still young, but I would consider breaking some bad habits before it gets harder to. Especially if your family has any kind of history related to heart problems.

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balilanai
March 4, 2010 12:37 PM
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With that kind of diet I Hope you will be around in about 20 years to write such comments. The heart attack strikes 1 day but only after a ticking bomb which goes on for years.

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QuantumRiff
March 4, 2010 12:34 PM
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If pigs weren't supposed to be eaten, they wouldn't be made of delicious bacon!

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psm321
March 4, 2010 12:51 PM
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balilanai comments about the evils of eating meat in every thread even vaguely related to it. I'm a vegetarian myself and tired of it... this is not the place for a debate on the merits of vegetarianism (though out of all the articles he/she has posted in, this one probably comes closest to being relevant and I actually wouldn't mind if it was just this article)

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kyle4
March 4, 2010 1:01 PM
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Lol, apparently I have a \"ticking time bomb\" waiting to go off by eating cheeseburgers.

Maybe just mass flagging the comments will work (?) I'm starting to think they're left here for comedic value.

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Rectilinear Propagation
March 4, 2010 1:31 PM
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Maybe e-mailing the moderator about it? It's not the individual comments so much as the continuing redundancy of them. So that may be why flagging doesn't do anything. Like the constant complaints about buy.com that used to end up in the Morning Deals section except those were more visible because those threads tend to have few comments.

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DeepHurting
March 4, 2010 12:07 PM
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Huh, I always thought it had something to do with burning more calories than you intake, and I'm pretty sure lean beef and pork are healthy sources of protein.
But hey, what do I know? I don't even have any clever dietary wordplay.

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pecan 3.14159265
March 4, 2010 12:06 PM
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It may not have occurred to you since you're so busy spewing ridiculous notions, but plenty of meat-eaters aren't fat. Plenty of vegetable eaters are fat. Many people - and this is a shocker - eat BOTH and are not fat.

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NarcolepticGirl
March 4, 2010 11:57 AM
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Can you stop spamming every article with your self-righteous and usually incorrect 'facts'?

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kyle4
March 4, 2010 11:56 AM
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For a vegetarian, you sure like spam. I've reported this user twice now for spamming every post that involves meat with anti-cow/pig/animal text. Consumerist?

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crackers
March 4, 2010 11:51 AM
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Yes, and choice is the thing missing when you're poor and the government has decided to make it cheaper to buy less healthy foods.

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balilanai
March 4, 2010 12:04 PM
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1 apple and 1 banana with spinach costs much less than a combo
Its not the cost.
Its choice

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thisistobehelpful
March 4, 2010 5:11 PM
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And if you ate that 8 times you would just get to enough calories per day. Your hair would fall out from lack of protein and eating that many bananas will probably make your blood sugar spike BUT YOU'RE TOTALLY SKINNY RIGHT?

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Wolfbird
March 4, 2010 12:51 PM
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That's not even balanced! Did you fail your nutrition class at high school?

lrn2activist. People will take you much more seriously if you give ideas for solutions to a problem rather than just whining all the bloody time.

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Rectilinear Propagation
March 4, 2010 12:40 PM
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What choice? The choice to be anorexic?

Oh, and good luck finding fresh fruit when you don't even have a real grocery store anywhere near you.

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dolemite
March 4, 2010 12:30 PM
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You know why I eat? Because I am hungry. Your apple/banana/spinach would fill me up for about an hour and then I'd be ready to eat again.

The Big Mac might not be as good for me, but I'll stay full 5x longer than off some fiber/water (which is the bulk of the composition of fruits/veggies).

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DangerMouth
March 4, 2010 4:24 PM
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oh god, the last time I ate a big mac, I didn't want to eat for a day.

I'm happy to report, you can actually retrain your body to feel better on healthier foods, and as full on less food, but it does take some effort and time, and yes, it is more expensive.

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Loias says: Poor choices made by the OP do not excuse poor choices made by other parties.
March 4, 2010 12:30 PM
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Your healthy meal choice is under-calorified and therefore would not satiate a normal person, nor would it provide quite enough energy to function effectively. In addition, it's lacking in a host of vitamins and minerals necessary, nor protien. Vegetarians tend to forget that there are a few proteins necessary that can only be obtained from animal protein.

I'm not saying a McD's combo is the right choice, but yours is a simplistic and unrealistic choice. Everyone disagrees with you I've noticed as well. Stop, as they say, trolling and try examining an issue with an open mind.

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ChemicallyInert
March 4, 2010 1:27 PM
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Actually, there are no necessary proteins that can't be obtained from plants. (although I could be corrected- but this just seems plain old unlikely. E.g. A lot of those protein bars are vegetarian- intentionally or not.) Legumes and nuts (tippy-top of the pyramid) are usually a good source for that.

However, you are right that this example is crap, and being a vegetarian is VERY expensive. I tried it for a while (partly for health reasons, partly to try it out). I didn't have a car at the time, I'm a student with limited access to funds (I have money, but it's put away yadda-yadda), and public transportation was the only way to go. I found that I shopped more frequently, it took a great deal more time out of my day, I had to eat a little more often, and it was just a general pain in the butt. I switched back to meat after a few months. I'm a good cook too (if I do say so myself), so taste wasn't really a factor. Although I did discover it's nigh impossible to get tofu to really approximate meat, and after a while I stopped trying. In general, however- murder does taste pretty good.

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wallspray
March 4, 2010 12:15 PM
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that is such an un-well rounded meal.

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Puckstopperga
March 4, 2010 11:49 AM
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Except not everyone has the same ability to make good choices. Try planning a balanced menu on $30/wk food budget. Let's see how many fruits and veggies you can \"choose\" to buy then.

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costanza007
March 4, 2010 11:50 AM
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Nice stats. Except they are showing you a percentage of federal food subsidies, nothing about actual cost on that pyramid.

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ChemicallyInert
March 4, 2010 1:14 PM
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Well, if you use slave labor like the Egyptians, you can severely cut down on overhead. Feed them cheaply on onions and bread. Now's probably the best time with real estate values being where they are.

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ARP
March 4, 2010 12:02 PM
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But there is a direct correlation (causation, even?). Subsidies generally make a product cheaper. Hence, HFCS, and feeding all livestock with corn (plus it makes them fat, much faster).

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mizmoose
March 4, 2010 11:50 AM
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To echo what others have said, Yeah, eating healthy is for people who have money.

I feel lucky when I can get frozen vegetables on sale cheap (& I try to stock up) but fresh fruits and vegetables have become more rare. Meat, when I can get it, is cheap cuts and/or big chunks on sale. Fish is unlikely; maybe shrimp once or twice a year if it's frozen, on sale and I have a few dollars extra. Nuts are right outta the ball park, except for cheap peanut butter, which we all know is high fat & high sugar. Cheese is store brand. Milk is powdered, bought in bulk and used sparingly -- can't waste money on something that could go bad. Rice and pasta also bought in bulk, along with potatoes and onions.

On the one hand, having no money means I'm not eating in restaurants so I know what I'm eating. On the other hand, I ate far healthier when I could afford fresh vegetables, fish, low-fat cheeses and the like.

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BigHeadEd
March 4, 2010 11:51 AM
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Since our collective taxes and shared deficit spending pay the subsidies, it doesn't cost more, it's just priced higher.

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shibblegritz
March 4, 2010 12:43 PM
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Well, no, actually 47 percent of all individuals and families don't pay any income taxes, so it's those of us who do pay income taxes paying for the Big Macs and chocolate milk for those who don't

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Michael Belisle
March 4, 2010 11:54 AM
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The \"Meat, Dairy\" portion is approximately 90% of the volume of the pyramid. While 73.8% is still a huge number, this exaggerates how big it is.

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ChemicallyInert
March 4, 2010 1:08 PM
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Ooh, someone else read How to Lie with Statistics.

(Sure, I might have taken a class or two, but that book was my first lesson.)

Although ~3/4 of the total is still huge, as you said- so I'm not 100% ready to say that there's a big credibility gap. A histogram would have been about as \"shocking\" IMO.

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okcancel
March 4, 2010 12:57 PM
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The pyramid and volume are labeled correctly with 73.8%, it's just that it is deceptively packaged, sort of like Andes mints.

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wallspray
March 4, 2010 12:16 PM
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This really bothers me too... If you want to have credibility, you can't just estimate.

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Dre'
March 4, 2010 11:55 AM
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A fast food salad may cost more than a Big Mac, but making your own most certainly doesn't. Even using the pre-cut & packaged salad mixes are cheaper than a Big Mac since they will feed you at least 2 or 3 times..

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t-spoon
March 4, 2010 12:49 PM
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Yeah but how much does a salad really do for you?

I speak as one of those people who has to eat all the time, and a GIANT, HEARTY salad gives me maybe 2 hours of energy.

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morlo
March 4, 2010 12:02 PM
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It's a little paradoxical, but usually you pay for a tossed salad, while you are paid for receiving big mac. Quantity does cost more, but ladies never pay.

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katstermonster
March 4, 2010 1:22 PM
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LOL. It took me a minute to get this, but it was worth it. That totally made my day, thank you.

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YouDidWhatNow?
March 4, 2010 12:03 PM
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...and people think only India holds cows to be sacred...

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WordTipping
March 4, 2010 12:06 PM
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Why is it that people view a Big Mac as a cheap meal? Eating a \"Value Meal\" twice a day is incredibly expensive and twice the cost of buying food that I actually have to prepare and cook...not boxed stuff.

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Tiber
March 4, 2010 1:31 PM
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Because the burger itself is a loss leader, and they make up for it by massively marking up the fries and drink. You're comparing apples to apples + steak.

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Billy
March 5, 2010 1:09 AM
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I think that WT was saying that even if it's a loss leader or a value meal, it's still comparatively expensive.

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wallspray
March 4, 2010 12:11 PM
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it's not the value meals... it's the 2 McDoubles. $2 for a meals is damn cheap.

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YouDidWhatNow?
March 4, 2010 12:21 PM
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Yup. I almost never buy anything not on the dollar menu. I can't make a chicken sandwich, a double cheeseburger, and an order of fries for $3 on my own.

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pantheonoutcast
March 4, 2010 12:36 PM
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Can you make your own Lipitor, though?

:)

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thyme11
March 16, 2010 12:30 PM
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Youdidwhatnow? is exactly the reason why we have a problem, in addition to subsidies. People want it fast and cheap and don't care about health. Perhaps he/she was saying that tongue in cheek (no pun intended) but you can stir fry some vegetables and eat them over rice for $3. We eat way more than we need to. That a $3 sandwich, fries and drink is available isn't a good enough argument for buying it because you think you can't make the same thing at home. Why is that the measure of what a meal should be worth?

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WalkTheLine
March 4, 2010 12:29 PM
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Obesity = Calories Consumed > Calories Burned on a consistent basis.

A Big Mac is only 540 calories. As long as you stick to the sandwich and not get a soda or fries, you'll probably be fine as far as caloric content goes.

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HungryGal
March 4, 2010 7:11 PM
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Let's just ignore how eating a meat/soy-fat/corn-syruped-flour cocktail screws up your metabolism and causes diabetes and such....

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gafpromise
March 4, 2010 12:33 PM
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Source please? I could have drawn that...

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bfos7215
March 4, 2010 12:37 PM
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I think this is the source: http://www.pcrm.org/magazine/gm07autumn/health_pork.html

Not sure why Ben didn't include this.

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chrestme
March 5, 2010 2:01 PM
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Perhaps because the first paragraph from that article basically nullifies the argument he's trying to make. \"The bill provides billions of dollars in subsidies, much of which goes to huge agribusinesses producing feed crops, such as corn and soy, which are then fed to animals.\" So, it appears the majority of those \"Meat, Dairy\" subsidies are actually grain subsidies.

Not to say the subsidy system isn't broken, just that the problem is more complex than this graph would make it seem. And complexity and nuance are the enemies of sound byte-style arguments, like the ones this article is attempting to make. (the gov't is subsidizing meat/dairy AND meat/dairy is unhealthy AND fruits/veggies are healthy THEREFORE the gov't should be subsidizing fruits and veggies more AND subsidizing meat/dairy less) Their argument hinges on the premise that meat/dairy is unhealthy, and only stands up if you accept that premise as true.

The \"Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine,\" a vegetarian/vegan lobbying group, accepts that premise. I do not.

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madanthony
March 4, 2010 12:54 PM
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I like that there is an asterisk after \"Federal subsidies...\" but it doesn't actually refer to a source.

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YouDidWhatNow?
March 4, 2010 1:01 PM
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...another thing to point out, about \"why you're fat,\" is that personal characteristics make a vastly bigger difference than anything else.

Studies have shown this easily - take however many people you want, and tell them to eat a supersized Big Mac meal 3 times a day, every day, and oh yeah have a 6-pack of beer too.

A lot of them will gain a huge amount of weight. A lot of them won't.

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spidra
March 4, 2010 1:06 PM
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Not that I disbelieve it, but I'd like to see the graphic cite its sources.

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ckaught77
March 4, 2010 1:08 PM
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Don't most McDonalds salads have more calories than a big mac anyway when you include the dressing?

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reidnez
March 4, 2010 1:19 PM
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Actually, the nutrition pyramid is BS anyway. We were not designed by evolution to eat grains. Chimpanzees, our closest living relatives, do not eat grain. Early man did not walk out of his cave to find acres of wheat and soy in front of him. Like chimpanzees and other primates, he ate a variety of fruits most of the time and meat on occasion, when he could get it. Grain does not even enter the picture.

That's not to say that grains are automatically bad or that you should avoid them, just that they probably aren't the best basis for a healthy diet--and they certainly should not comprise more than half of your calories.

Do not harbor any illusions that the FDA is really out to protect your health--it's been staffed by food industry insiders for years and its regulatory power is a joke. Thus, it makes sense that its nutritional pyramid reflects a strong bias for profitable foods which are ARTIFICIALLY cheap to produce because of government subsidies. That means grain, folks.

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nbs2
March 5, 2010 2:20 PM
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Ignoring the fact that \"early man\" generally died within a few decades and chimps usually put in about 50 years before clocking out, presuming that our diets should mimic historic diets denies the effects of adaptation and micro-evolution. Just because we are the same species doesn't mean that we do things the same way.

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quail
March 4, 2010 9:02 PM
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Funny, but rice is a grain and it is the primary food in the diet of many cultures. And let's not forget other grains like wheat that made up the majority of the medieval peasant's diet. Grains are cheap to produce and as long as they're not processed provide a lot of nutrition. Yea, you still need veggies and meats. But don't knock the lowly grain. There's a reason why they call bread the staff of life.

Besides, you can't make beer without it... :)

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ninjapoodles
March 4, 2010 2:04 PM
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Wholeheartedly agreed. Without protein or fat in our diets, we'd die. Take away grains, and...well, that'd be fine, actually.

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thyme11
March 16, 2010 4:58 PM
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I think some people are missing the point. There are whole grains like quinoa, for example, that have loads and loads of protein. There are ways to get protein without the associated health risks of eating meat. There are grains and then there are grains. Some are high in sugars and carbs like corn, others not. To defend protein and fat needs is only funny in that that is not the reason people eat junk food. We do not need fats in the quantities most Americans eat them. You can get plenty of good fat from healthy oils like olive oil. Our protein needs in no way justify our cow and pig welfare system that incidentally benefits only the giant producers. The only \"benefit\" to us as consumers is the artificially low cost of meat (all the costs are hidden) and here we are dying off in great numbers from preventable diseases like heart disease and diabetes, all because of diet.

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Wolfbird
March 4, 2010 1:28 PM
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I spend less money on food now than ever, actually. I took up cooking, although it's true that not everyone really has the time for it. If you're poor because you're unemployed and not doing anything anyway, why not try? My apologies to those who just don't have nice grocery stores... that must really suck D:

I find that some good \"poor food\" (even I still have bad weeks) are pasta with homemade sauce (with or without meat), stirfry (bulk out with fettucini noodles and bean sprouts and/or small amounts of meat), soup (use bones left over from a previous meal + any vegetables in your fridge), or pretty much anything that's pork. Pork is really cheap here, especially pork shoulder (stew it with root vegetables and salt and it's pretty good, assuming you can deal with the smell of stinky boiling pork). Oh, and potatoes. You can do just about anything with potatoes.

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nbs2
March 5, 2010 2:06 PM
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MMMMmmmmm......Pork Butt. While he really has fallen far from his early successes, Robert Rodriguez has a very nice recipe for roast pork on the Once Upon a Time in Mexico DVD. The meat is the costliest element (if you skip the tequila), so this with rice could be an option - it even keeps well so you can make a large batch ahead of time.

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pecan 3.14159265
March 4, 2010 1:58 PM
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Potatoes are fantastic. Also, lentils and barley. Chicken broth, barley, vegetables, and herbs makes a really good and cheap meal. I make my own chicken broth as well. I don't make beef broth though. I don't use it enough to make it, but I keep a jar of boullion cubes.

Fennel seeds are my secret ingredient for spaghetti sauce. I can't imagine a sauce without fennel seeds. I love them. I added a tablespoon to my spaghetti sauce last night.

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Toffeemama - they just keep getting better
March 4, 2010 1:31 PM
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The \"federal subsidies\" graphic looks like a big candy corn.... That's pretty fitting, actually.

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TailsToo
March 4, 2010 1:52 PM
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Welcome to the free market... oh, wait...

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Intheknow
March 4, 2010 3:56 PM
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Moved to rice and bean meals for protein almost daily, along with multicolored vegetable salads and seasonal fruits - as well as a daily multivitamin. Red meat maybe once a week and chicken maybe twice a week. Cutting out the boxed and canned foods takes a lot off the grocery bill. Now on to the electric bill-Grrrrr

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lincolnparadox
March 4, 2010 5:04 PM
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Just FYI, only about 10% of corn and soybean is made for human consumption. The rest is for seed, feed and ethanol.

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HungryGal
March 4, 2010 7:15 PM
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Though the meat that eats the soy and corn isn't as healthy as the meat that eats what it is meant to eat. Unhealthy cows mean unhealthy burgers. Factory famed vegetables have the same issues- they're raised on a strict diet of potassium, phosphorus and nitrogen and don't get the other nutrients that are found in natural soil. The fruits and vegetables for sale today have LESS vitamins and minerals in them than they did 50 years ago. There are statistics for this in In Defense of Food.

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HungryGal
March 4, 2010 6:59 PM
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American's spend 5% less of their income on food than the French or Italians, and 10% less than the Spanish (9.9%, 14.9%, and 20% respectively). Cheap food is killing us.

(I'm in the midst of reading In Defense of Food. It's horrifying because it makes so much sense.)

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HIcycles
March 4, 2010 7:36 PM
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No, this is why you're fat:

http://thisiswhyyourefat.com/

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quail
March 4, 2010 8:55 PM
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Subsidies aside, think of the cost in food waste when it comes to fresh fruits and veggies. Supermarkets throw tons of produce away due to spoilage or the 'appearance' of spoilage. So do restaurants. Now, if only we have a food source that keeps fresh for a long time and that 100% will reach the consumer...hmm, now what could that be...? Yep, fatty and fried foods. Heavily processed foods. You get the idea...

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sarah81
March 5, 2010 1:14 PM
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I have 20 -50 dollars for two weeks of groceries. In my part of Canada food is taxed (high) so it can get tight depending on the season. I usually scour the interwebs for the cheapest deals locally. I can get fresh stuff from Farmers markets in the summer and fall but come winter everything is shipped in or hot house grown. Usually I get on sale pasta or bulk rice, frozen veggies, beans, spaghetti sauce and multi vitamins. As soon as I make more money I am never eating frozen veggies again and if I see one more noodle I may cry. I can't wait to buy crisp apples in SPRING (yah out of season baby) and chicken breast. I refuse to eat Mr. Noodles or any other side kick salt laden trash. The part that sucks? The generation of poor is growing because wages are not going up but cost of living is. I either move home and ruin my parents twilight years and my dignity or suck it up.

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backpackjeff
March 6, 2010 12:47 AM
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To those suggesting it'd be better if meat and dairy were in different catagories, I'd like to suggest that that is impossible. Without the meat industry we wouldn't have dairy.

They must keep cows pregnant and all times to keep producing milk and only female bovine produce milk, so what do you think they do with all the baby males? Veal. What happens to the \"spent\" dairy cows after their 3 - 5 year life? Hamburger.

By consuming dairy you support the meat industry. They are two in the same.

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thejesse
March 6, 2010 1:48 AM
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I am curious to know who made this chart and why they felt the need to lie. Here is a link to actual farm subsidy payments. http://farm.ewg.org/farm/region.php?fips=00000

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balilanai
March 6, 2010 10:15 PM
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Here's the full reason why.
http://www.now-movies.com/movies/Food_Inc/17302.html

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jonquilemm
March 7, 2010 7:14 PM
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I gotta say, I am always confused to hear people say that eating healthy is too expensive, or that it's \"for the rich.\" I make just under $9 an hour at a job in retail. I am not rich, by any stretch of the imagination. I am a vegan, I don't eat meat or dairy or eggs. I don't eat white rice, bread, or pasta. I do just fine! I trade a bit more time in the kitchen (not a lot of places to eat out in the Midwest if you're vegan) for a bit more money, and I never go hungry. What I don't have money for is organic produce, but I'm not losing any sleep over that. The things I eat every day may not be fancy or exciting, but in the five years I've been vegan I've gotten mildly sick ONCE, which in my book is an acceptable trade-off.

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Psipsina
March 7, 2010 8:21 PM
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I don't know why you're fat, or even if you're fat, but it isn't the meat subsidies. The meat in a Whopper value meal accounts for only 240 calories out of the 1220 total (and that's if you don't put ketchup on your fries). I think you might do better to blame the corn (HFCS) and soy (soybean oil) subsidies.

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raaven
March 9, 2010 1:41 AM
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I've been reading everyone's comments. I have to say... the debate between whether eating healthy is more or less expensive, or even just comparable to a SAD grocery list is interesting. I wonder if those who claim vegan or vegetarian diets are affordable could enlighten me on how to manage such a feat, as I can tell you, when you are in a crunch... even \"cheap\" healthy alternatives are nowhere near as cheap as the crap white bread or sandwich meat, hot dogs, american cheese, deep fried fish sticks, on sale for \"buy one get TWO FREE\" at a local Meijer store here in MI, which I see at LEAST once a month. Or how about the 20 for $5 ramen, or even the 2/$1.oo Kraft mac products. Granted, a bag of lentils is only a buck, but let's face it... the addictive ingredients and the variety that the evil affordable foods offer makes it much more appealing than buying the lentils, as well as all or any other ingredients needed to make something WITH the lentils.

Not to mention... it took me years of studying and educating myself on eating right and finding the truth about the foods we are given, the FDA, the poisons in every box, etc etc... but the TRUE information is just NOT readily available for most average American families.

And that's not even touching the GMO's vs. organics... corn products, soy products, hormone ridden EVERYTHING... I do my best to do my part, but sometimes we have to survive.

You would not catch me on my worst day buying a Big Mac instead of a salad... but over all, honestly. Cost of living has skyrocketed and paychecks are either dwindling or disappearing completely. Quality has been lost in quantity, and the medical field is reaping all the benefits, in every way. THAT is why a Big Mac is cheaper than a salad. Hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but the proof is in the pudding... and the Big Mac, and the majority of everything we see in the stores and restaurants of the Mighty US of A.

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thyme11
March 16, 2010 12:23 PM
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You bring up some good points. But one thing I've always wondered as I look in people's grocery carts is how they can buy so much packaged, prepared food. I can't or don't think I can afford that. To me, buying vegetables IS cheaper.

But this is a very complex issue. I'm glad you said what you did about the flavor of mac and cheese versus lentils. Many people are suckers for these added chemicals but it takes some doing to simply change what your palette is used to. You can eat a far healthier, tastier meal that is just as filling as mac and cheese (and will last longer) if you bought an onion, celery and carrot and sauteed them, added the lentils and some spices or herbs. That's a pot of food for a week.

And it takes about the same amount of time as making boxed mac and cheese.

But most people are lazy and not willing to take 20 minutes to prepare a meal and adjust their taste buds. They also don't care about the packaging they're tossing into the landfills every time they buy packaged, prepared foods.

Ever made a big pot of potato leek soup (water, not chicken broth) and throw some rice in? If that's not a cheap, filling, not to mention nutritious meal, I don't know what is.

So while I do think that much of the food available IS cheap, that argument cannot always be made because I doubt that people bother to do any cost comparisons. Also, this is based on what? Feeling full enough after a meal? All of us eat way more food than we need to to survive.

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FFFCoP
March 12, 2010 2:44 PM
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One explanation for the huge amount of subsidies in Meat/Dairy may be that the Grain used to feed livestock is counted toward Meat/Dairy subsidies. Was this the case?

Sadly, the grain that we do subsidize is used primarily for feeding livestock and making corn starch and high fructose corn syrup.

And, we do not subsidize fruits and vegetables very much at all.

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thyme11
March 16, 2010 12:13 PM
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This is a confusing graphic, simple as it seems. But information graphics should make complex information more clear, not less. For example, the headline says \"salad\" but the labels above each pyramid, which don't look clearly like labels, should say \"big mac\" and \"salad\" or at least some iteration of that so they tie back into your headline. Otherwise there's a disconnect between the title and the labels. I'm a graphic designer who does a lot of info graphics and I had to stare at it for a while to understand what it was really saying.

Or else the whole title should be different since people don't normally think of grains in their salad.

And I agree with the one poster about there not being any $$ attached to this.

All in all a missed opportunity to share some really important information.

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foglark
March 19, 2010 6:37 PM
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OR some of you that are complaining about vegetable being expensive can grow some of your own...it is ridiculously easy to grow a veggie garden...and it can be done in pots even on an apartment balcony. We have a strip of land that we plant a summer and winter garden in that is about 20'X3' and we grow 3 varieties of tomatoes, eggplant, squash, onion, bell peppers and jalapenos in over summer and broccoli, cauliflower, & brussel sprouts over winter. I'm not a know-it-all about gardening either. It's not that difficult and we have so much food that I am freezing tomato sauce and giving away food all season long in addition to having some crazy good BBQ's... Stop complaining and being so reliant on others so that you can live your life the way you want to. Yeah it would be great if our government were perfect, not greedy, and actually enacted laws/policies that made sense...but they don't and frankly it's not up to them to make choices for anyone else.

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Scott
June 22, 2011 12:26 PM
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It's probably because rat meat is fairly abundant and low cost.

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