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This seems like a ploy to get younger players for the Utah Jazz...
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Yeah, so many basketball players come out of that factory known as Utah Public Schools.
This seems like a ploy to get younger players for the Utah Jazz...
Yeah, so many basketball players come out of that factory known as Utah Public Schools.
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I learned a lot my senior year in high school because I was taking AP classes in preparation for college. I don't know if the requirements are different where I live now, but my boss's son is a senior in high school and only goes to school half-days. He's not on work-study and has already been accepted to college for the fall. I'd never heard of such a thing, but it's apparently pretty common here. That's exactly what our kids need - less time in school.
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I skipped a whole semester at PSU thanks to 6 AP classes.
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My school did not start offering AP classes until I was a senior, and even then it was only in English (not my strongest), so it was basically too late for me to be able to take them.
^^ this
For the love of God, take AP Bio. Got a 5 on that test and it got me like 15 credits my freshman year (including a lab!), just for that ONE test. Amazing.
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ditto on the AP classes. I also did a half day, every day with the Oklahoma School of Science and Mathematics. Really helped for college.
Amen. I took tough classes (my electives included AP History and Advanced Anatomy & Physiology), but I also did it with half-days. 3 days a week I was done by lunch, 2 days I had one more class after the break. I also went to a private school, so I did crazy things, like learning English grammar. Don't quiz me now, but I could list every preposition in the language from memory... most high school kids can't tell you what a preposition even is. My AP class got me 9 college credits, so that was pretty sweet.
The reason I took half-days, however, was not because someone voted to let me. I had all the credits needed for a 4 year high school education, I just had it done earlier (taking early morning or after school classes helped with that). There are already kids who do this in Utah, I'm sure. They got all the credits and graduate a year early. Also, when you turn 18, you can drop out. No diploma, but you can leave. What this rule really says is they want to give an option for kids to drop out and STILL get a diploma.
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This.
I used my senior year to get ahead on my freshman physics and calculus requirements with the AP tests. I had a couple of classmates who were doing basically the same thing under a cooperative program with a local community college.
I suspect the intended audience for this idea isn't the AP/IB crowd, though.
Top schools rarely let you use AP classes for credit these days. It isn't profitable for them to let you out early. What they will do is let you skip intro classes and place into higher-level ones. On the other hand, taking classes at local colleges usually won't even give you that much- top schools often don't accept those credits at all.
Instead, taking whatever AP classes your school offers is now basically a prerequisite for getting admitted at top schools.
Many other schools *do* still accept AP credits, but may not let you graduate early anyway.
Hi, student at a top school here, and incorrect based on my experiences.
Most schools accept AP credits. The top schools just have more stringent requirements - you must have 4's or 5's on the exams and they really only count for basic freshman level cattle courses.
My high school had a partnership with a local state community college. Between community college and AP courses, I was able to enter my top school as a sophomore by passing almost all the basic freshman requirements and jumping right into my major.
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They accept the AP credits, but there's still a minimum course requirement you have to complete. This allows you to get some of the cattle-call basic requirements off your schedule as a freshman - going into O-Chem rather than Chem 101 with 500 seats, for example.
I think it is exactly the audience. People who are working on their AP classes, would be better off working directly for college credit.
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And honestly the college classes are easier most of the time since you don't have to pass the class and then still pass the AP test for credit. Just make it through the class and you get the credits.
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Yeah, I took AP English and we had to read 35 books and do reports on every other one, write two 7-10 page papers, do a research presentation, AND pass the AP test. It was just too hard for me, even though I always considered myself smart. I took two english classes in my first year of college, where we only had to read one or two books for each, and only had to write a couple of papers. I can't describe to you the difference of level of difficulty...college was a walk in the park after that one AP class :p
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Unless the course you're skipping with AP credit is a weeding out class at the college you attend. English 1101 was notorious for being INSANELY difficult at the first college I went to.
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I agree 100%. My university doesn't accept many AP credits to begin with, if they did, the entire school would graduate in 2 or 3 years (and that's not good for turning a buck.) I actually find it ridiculous that schools are accepting AP credits as college credits now. What's the point in going to college if you're already half \"done?\" Virginia mandates that all state schools must accept AP credits, poor decision in my book. I could have gone to that tier 1 state school and only been there 3 years but I chose a different/better route.
What do you mean by \"now?\" I started college in 1995 and there were plenty of AP classes accepted as credit at my state university. I don't think it's ridiculous at all - it gives students the opportunity to take advanced classes and double major. And even if it does allow students to graduate early, that's a fantastic thing and could save them quite a bit of money. I can't find a negative here.
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Most schools will accept AP in some form, but generally for very reduced credit - for example, got a 5 (high score) on the Biology test? You can only use it toward a non-biology major class, so if you're a bio major, it's useless. Got a 5 on an English test? You can get out of English 101, but you still have to take English 102, no matter what your major.
Most places will take it, the AP program is nationally credentialled. Elsewise, there'd be no incentive for schools to incorporate a very costly program into the curriculum. They just are less and less likely to give you the credit you'd hope for from the test. That said, with the skyrocketing cost of college, any free (well, the cost of the test, which is generally trivial) credits you can get are probably a good move.
Oh I realize most schools will take it, but my thought is that it truly reduces the \"experience\" and function of go to a university if AP classes get counted as class credit. Of course you shouldn't have to repeat classes, but instead of allowing you to cross off the class as credit, the school should just allow you to move up a tier in the category. And if you are studying econ for example, your 5 on a Bio AP will allow you to substitute one of the general ed science requirements for a class of your choosing (and if you were smart about it, you'd pick a new class in your field to further your understanding of what you are studying and possibly allow you to double major, minor in something else.)
Considering the number of college credits I got for the AP courses I took, I got plenty out of my senior year.
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Why not start college early? I recall I was done with most of my requirements before senior year. It was a waste to be sitting in the library for long hours
It would have cost me twice as much to go to the local CC and I would have been required to provide my own transportation.
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They should expand HS so that you come out with an Associates degree. Then the minimum degree at colleges would be an MA.
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I chose for the \"sweathogs\" English class instead of the group 2 class I was assigned, took Art, Home Ec and basically did nothing. It was great then.
Looking back however, I wish I took school and learning seriously. The hour before graduation my parents tell me to pick any 2 or 4 year college and they'd pay for it. \"Hello!, why didn't you guide me toward college from the very 1st day of school???\"
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What's worse is having your parents groom you for college since you were 5, and then they divorce -- effectively stopping ANY support in your schooling, and then they go, \"Oh, that college we said we'd pay for? Nu uh. We're poor now. You go pay for it allllll\"
To this day, I still want to punch them in the face. :)
oh wow... I hope you had a opportunity to attend later on. I realise we don't know each other but look into Pell Grants or scholarships. If you have a chance to get back into it, don't waste it...
*taking off my \"Mom apron\" now*
I started to go to a community college. I lost time when both my kids got sick and I missed 6 weeks of classes.
I got out of high school in 1976 and they were teaching things that my high school didn't even touch upon.
When I was in senior class high school my last year was nothing but \"elective\" courses. Nothing but crap classes, but I still needed to get a certain number of required elective credits. I thought it was funny that I could not graduate unless I took those extra PE, shop, and teacher aid classes.
This plan would work very well for the upper-level kids: the ones going into college, know pretty well what they want to do in life, and don't need to read \"The Awakening\" in some boring AP English class in order to become a doctor. All of the needed classes for these kids (if you're going off the AP system: Gov, Calc BC, Bio and/or Chem, Physics et cetera) can be moved down to the 11th grade, move 11th to 10th and cut 9th altogether.
I know personally that 9th grade was the biggest waste of time in my life where there was mandatory study halls (good kids study on their own time and great kids don't need to study), mandatory health classes (I know how to use a condom, I don't need a semester of classes telling me how to use one and why, I can learn that in a day) mandatory gym classes (can't varsity sports substitute?) and some b.s. mandatory \"get acclimated to high school class.\"
Everyone may be up in arms about this but 12th grade is really only needed for the lower-level kids who have no clue what they want to do, I always found generic schooling system in the US to be way too long. Look at other countries that do so much better on standardized tests and let's copy their systems. Germany for example places the top-tier kids in \"Gymnasium\" in which they prepare for college, the lower-achieving kids go to technical schools so they can learn a trade to get right into the work force instead of faltering after too many years of reading \"Things Fall Apart\" and not enough learning how to do a job.
Cutting 12th grade is an excellent idea. I wish my state had done it while I was in high school. Besides 8th grade is the new 9th, as far as sports are concerned. It's a fact that a B.S/B.A. means pretty much nothing as what is was regarded as 20 years ago. We need to as a nation be pushing the kids faster through the system so we can stay ahead of other countries who have rigorous education systems (China, all of Europe...) The kids that fall to the wayside can be catered to through secondary technical schools.
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You have a contradiction here that you appear not to have noticed:
\"Germany for example places the top-tier kids in \"Gymnasium\" in which they prepare for college, the lower-achieving kids go to technical schools so they can learn a trade to get right into the work force ... We need to as a nation be pushing the kids faster through the system so we can stay ahead of other countries who have rigorous education systems\"
We HAVE a rigorous education system, and America's top high school students are competitive with other countries' top high school students. What America does that other nations generally DON'T do is put ALL students into that system, instead of tracking out the low-achieving students early.
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\"Germany for example places the top-tier kids in \"Gymnasium\" in which they prepare for college, the lower-achieving kids go to technical schools so they can learn a trade to get right into the work force instead of faltering after too many years of reading \"Things Fall Apart\" and not enough learning how to do a job.\"
I've been a teacher for 10 years, and could not have expressed this sentiment better; some (most) American kids are not cut out to be scholars. These kids should instead be taking classes in carpentry, plumbing, HVAC repair, engine maintenance - you know, like those schools they advertise for on late night TV. NYC has a graduation rate of about 54% and one of the reasons is precisely because 46% of the students have no interest in / can't internalize calculus, literature, biology, and pretty much everything else currently being taught to them.
Unfortunately, our society's current attitude is that every child is capable of astounding feats of intellectual prowess, and fails to explore the options that would provide them with skills that will one day lead to employment.
In NYC right now, there are 1.6 million people between the ages of 18-30 with no high school diploma. Recently, it was announced that there are 1.6 million people in NYC receiving food stamps. This is no coincidence.
If they can't learn calculus, the electricians don't want them.
Skilled trades are called \"skilled\" for a reason, you know.
I don't know any electricians who sit around solving differential equations. Algebra, maybe. But you missed my point entirely. Electricians and other skilled tradesmen do not need a so-called \"classical education.\" They need thorough and proper training in their field. This sort of training is not usually provided by the current educational system.
I don't think you know a lot about current school curriculums, or about what the skilled trades require for entry. I'm on the local school board and we work with the trades on specifically that thing.
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Speaking as someone who is an HVAC Technician, I do not want your ignorant kids in my line of work. I had to go through two years of college classes and work study in order to earn my certifications, and now I'm having to train those tech school kids simple things like: do not inhale the refrigerants, it will kill you.
Dumping the lower achieving kids into factory tech schools is a great idea, but do not assume that because I swing a wrench, I am intellectually inferior to you desk jockeys. Without guys like myself, you couldn't occupy those high-rise buildings, keep your home mildew free and your server rooms chilled.
Blue collar does not equal ignorant.
Get that through your thick over-educated skulls before you find yourself with a 25% cost increase due to your being an ass.
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Well said. Smart is smart, doesn't matter what you do for a living. There's something to be said for the intelligence of people who don't choose be chained to desk all day.
No one mentioned that blue collar jobs = \"ignorant\" workers. But for the most part, they are certainly not \"intellectual,\" nor do they need to be. I'm sure your job is very difficult, and takes lots of training. But it does not require writing 20 page theses on Shakespeare or critically analyzing the works of Tennessee Williams. That's what the high school and university system requires of every student, however, and the mentality is that every student should have a college degree. I vehemently disagree - some people are not cut out for scholastic pursuits, and instead should be trained in a technical field.
I'm sure you, as an individual are intelligent, despite your need to make ad hominem attacks, but the guy who fixes my plumbing doesn't need to discuss Nabakov with me. Nor does he have to balance chemical equations. He does, however need to know how to braze pipes and the like - and the last time I checked, they don't teach that in most high schools.
Someone so educated should be able to look up \"ad hominem\" and find out what it actually means.
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+1
Being in the education system, I'd say that perhaps not every kid is cut out for a PhD, or even a BA/BS degree. But that doesn't change the fact that the system itself is fundamentally broken. You cite NYC and its graduation rates. What is the average class size? I am more familiar with Los Angeles so I'll use it as an example. With Los Angeles Unified School District, the average class size has increased to ridiculous numbers (some classes now have about 50 kids). Last election, kids picketed with signs reading \"Classes, not lecture halls.\" There are not seats for all of them.
Their graduation rate is 66%.
Granted, LAUSD incorporates a wide range of kids in some troubled areas, but when you look at a neighboring district with smaller class sizes in mid 30's (which is still too high for very effective teaching to happen for most kids), we see a graduation rate of 88%. The neighborhood isn't a rough, but there's still a fair amount of poverty.
My point is that there's more going on than just the kids aren't smart enough to hack it. We've also failed them - not you as a teacher, but we as an educative system.
In middle school and high school we have between 30-34 students per class. But in addition to the failures of the NYC Dept. of Ed, the cultures it serves plays a big part in low grad rates as well. Asians and White graduate at about 70% whereas Blacks and Hispanics graduate at around 40-60%. Most depressingly, the graduation rate for Black Males in NYC is 34%. We can blame the DOE for a lot of things, but its difficult to teach a culture that just doesn't value education at all.
They, above everyone else, need alternative training and education in non-scholastic fields.
The sad thing is that our \"no child left behind\" mentality truly does bring down the quality of learning in the school systems. My county was quite unique in that it offered many programs for the very intelligent children (2 Governor's Schools, AP program, Gifted and Talented program, dual enrollment with community college) but I believe there is some stupid state law in which children are not allowed to be segregated in earlier years (middle school) according to achievement. Our school would game the system by scheduling conflicts with math and foreign language classes so all the \"smart\" kids would end up in the same English, Science and Social Studies classes. But sometimes the gaming wouldn't work: my younger sister got stuck in an 8th grade class with the non-scholars as you put it. The teacher put her in the hall and gave her real work to do while she babysat the raucous crowd inside.
My freshman year I had a class of 665. My friends and I would make a joke by betting during each report card/ progress report about how much that number would drop by. I graduated with 332 other kids. More than 50% of those kids dropped out (we are a growing young community with an influx of children.) If only those kids were taken out of traditional \"learn the basics of everything\" school and put into trade schools...
Didn't Florida do this a few years ago?
Another whole state filled with kids that my kids won't have to worry about competing with in future job markets. Keep it up.
Think about it in terms of jobs and future income. Right now high school drop-outs get the worst jobs and lowest pay (on average), followed by high school graduates, people with some college or associates degrees, 4 years of college and graduate/business/medical school. Guess where people who \"kinda finished high school\" are going to end up along that spectrum.
I'm going to get killed for this but, what the hell.
I went to an extremely underachieving high school and even though our drop-out rate was very high, there were a lot of students who were only kept there through threat of the law. They had no interest being there and an inordinate amount of resources were spent keeping them there, disciplining them, and keeping them from distracting other students.
I would have no complaints about those kids leaving after 11th grade, letting schools allot more resources to the students who actually want to be there. It's a matter of investment return - the town/state is going to get a higher rate of return on the kids who actually want to be in school, so why not cut their losses?
Except that this kids in Florida who ARE well prepared after 11th grade go to college earlier, go to graduate school earlier, get a job earlier than your kids,
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Yes, but I'm guessing the vast majority of 11th graders are not those kids, so while you'd be doing a service for the top few percentiles of kids, the vast majority would be let down (again) by our oh-so-wonderful public education system. We're failing our children in our education system (and we were before NCLB, but now it's far worse), and this is just another short-sighted and poor option that lawmakers are considering. What happens next year after they cut 12th grade out of the schools and still have $400-500m in budget deficit? Cut 11th grade?
This only makes sense. The kids in Mississippi are getting credit for the two years of third grade.
hahahaha
I really don't know what Chris Butters is thinking with this one, every time he's in Utah news its for a dumber reason than the last time. Utah public schools are already a joke, this (if implemented) will only make it worse.
I basically skipped my senior year. I took full time classes at the local community college instead (Principal didn't like students doing that but signed off on the form without reading it). I know the classes I took were easier than most of my friends AP classes.
Still helped out with the school website so that I had a reason to wander in and talk to my friends and then leave lol.
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I've been to Utah. Maybe they should spend that last year on driver's ed and multicultural studies.
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I *live* in Utah, I agree with driver ed and multiculturalism ed. But, what is needed the most is sex ed, or at least give away free birth control.
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Don't the magic underpants provide birth control?
Amen!! Its really sad how totally unaware most Utahoos are of the whole world outside of the state.
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Really ? That makes sooo much sense, now that you point it out. Best comment so far !
I don't know if you were being sarcastic or not but it really is true how unaware of other countries/cultures a lot of people in Utah are. Case in point, my girlfriend is Lao (Laotian) and she had a former co-worker who couldn't comprehend how she could be asian without being Chinese... That is only the most glaring example, there have been many examples involving other ethnicities that I won't mention.
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Perhaps they just watch too much King of the Hill...
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As much smack as I like to talk about Utah, this makes all the sense in the world, as long as there are opportunities for these 17 year olds to go do something else, whether that something else is work or college. As a parent whose offspring has recently finished high school, I can tell you that meeting basic graduation requirements in three years can be done pretty much without breaking a sweat, and his senior year's schedule would have been about half-empty if it weren't for this idiotic requirement to pad it with unneeded coursework in which he had scant interest at best.
Oh, and @GyroMight, at our high school, there is only junior prom and some semi-formal thing for the seniors that doesn't require tuxedos (thank God). And it's early graduation - you still get to walk across the stage, only with a bunch of people a year older than you who you probably had a lot of classes with if you've already met requirements. I'd have done it, and I think my son would have if he could.
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\"I can tell you that meeting basic graduation requirements in three years can be done pretty much without breaking a sweat\"
At my high school, I'm pretty sure that was not even possible to do. Then again living in New York State the education requirements are a bit higher.
I don't know what it's like nowadays, but 15 years ago the NYS education system was still one of the best/toughest in the country, and most of us managed to get to the 12th grade without any real requirements left (other than the required 4th year of English and Math required for a regents diploma).
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I graduated from a magnet NYC public school about 5 years ago and while we still had required 4 years of English and 4 years of gym, the additional classes that we took during senior year was either AP classes or fluff classes. Though I have to say, I enjoyed those AP and fluff classes.
And then after they decide 11th grade isn't really necessary since its the last year, we can knock that out too. Then a few years later get rid of 10th grade., Hell lets scrap all education. Then the rich will be the only ones able to go to school.
This is the stupidest idea ever, and that is saying a LOT for a state like Utah.
By the way, isn't it optional anyway. If you don't want to go to school anymore, you just drop out.
In other words, the education system is irretrievably broken; let's cut our losses. Much easier and cheaper than trying to fix it.
Our motto for the 21st Century: \"Aim Low.\"
http://boortz.com/images/funny/adequate_progress.jpg
Sadly, this is something No Child Left Behind says you should be proud of.
move to Europe, accept the inevitable demise of the new Roman Empire, and do a complete turn-around on your capitalistic beliefs for a socialized and functioning society with fewer McDonald's...
not a too shabby idea, if only my education system had ACTUALLY taught me how to speak a foreign language, grrrrrr
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lets see...
A hyper inflated currency ...
then there's the value added taxes you pay. making Europe an after thought to countries like China and India to sell their goods (after America)
Then there is the rampant unemployment throughout.
So while you can get a great education what will you do?
no thanks I'll stick to our \"horrible\" education systems
twas a joke... I in no way want to go there. For one I have better health care (do not take \"I\" as the US) but I do like many of the social norms there more than the ones here, specifically the eating habits and the mentality that not everyone is equal in everything, but that discussion is for other times.
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If they aren't in school for a year, they should spend it doing unpaid mandatory community service. That way the they get a better idea of what awaits them if they don't go off to college.
Like @tbax929, I took AP classes like calculus, a second year of physics, and advanced English so that I could be better prepared for university. I slummed through a third year of Latin and joined yearbook, too. But that year of calculus helped me out by getting my *ss in training for the workload I encountered at university.
Granted this was in the late 1980s, early 1990s. So get offa my lawn.
Hi, I'm from Utah and I'm stupid.
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Funny. When I lived in Utah I used to say, (in a cowboy voice) \"We're stupid, and proud of it, too!\" There is a genuine pride for not being educated, and disdain for those who are.
You must have lived in Utah County.
I dunno, but where I'm from, in UTAH, we prize education, and don't find disdain for those who've achieved an education. No, I don't live in Park City either.
This made me laugh quite a bit.
Honesty is always the best policy. Now imagine if New Yawkah's would be that terribly blunt. I think it wouldn't end at 'I'm a duffer', but rather go on & on, like the Lambchop that song that never ends !
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Actually, I learned quite a bit. Took many courses that enabled me to skip many intro college courses.
There are a number of problems with this proposal:
1) This will put a significant burden on parents who will have to decide how to supervise children that are no longer at school all day.
2) Have they even looked at whether or not the job market would support the flood of this many people looking for work?
3) Have they even looked at whether or not the colleges could support the flood of this many people applying early.
In short, this is an example of creative thinking that ignores consequence or any understanding of interconnected dependencies--typical political thinking.
1) Why would high school seniors need to be supervised. At that point (17-18 years old) they should be able to get by without constant adult supervision.
2 & 3) How would this flood anything? The only possible time it would cause a problem is the first year, after that is will be the same number of students applying in total, it will just be split across 2 years (if half the 11th graders leave then that only leaves half the amount of applying seniors next year)
As far as jobs go I disagree, it would happen every year unless there was significant jobs growth. In my area alone, there are roughly 10,000 seniors (assuming you use your 50% number) that would be released on a job market that already is at 10% unemployment with no jobs growth. Each year that means those 10,000+ seniors would exist trying to find work until there was enough jobs growth to accommodate them.
As for whether or not they are unsupervised--I'm a parent of three non-teenagers, but if both parents' work, I'm not sure I'd want my 17-18 yr old home with nothing to do all day. I would want them spending their time productively (volunteering, working, etc.). I get that probably should be a family issue to work out, however.
But I guess my main concern is that the change not get made without planning for all of these issues. How about putting in place some alternatives for parents and seniors (work programs, volunteering programs, etc.). If you do, you won't save all of the 60M, which is why they won't. But otherwise it's basically, \"ok no senior year, good luck all you families making it work!\"
But at the end of the school year those seniors will be entering the job market anyways. So now you would have some of them a year early and some of them at the same time as normal.
If you assume 50% of students skip senior year then that means that the first year you would have 15k graduating (all 10k seniors and half of the juniors) but the next year there would only be 5k seniors graduating along with 5k early graduation juniors, which would then maintain at that rate.
I think you're making my point. The job market is currently sized to handle seniors entering the job market (assuming they don't go to college). It is not sized for 50% (or whatever %) of those people to enter a year early--and that spike would remain from year to year until the job market adjusted to the new numbers (which I think would take a very long time). If the market could absorb the spike the first time, you would be correct, it would be a non-issue.
We're both speculating and who knows what the result would be--I would just like to see someone actually consider the consequences and assess how many individuals might enter the workforce and whether or not those individuals would be able to enter it without difficulty.
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Governments don't think. They react. These are your children. The government is not there for your benefit. The government exists because it can. The real answer is to take care your children, don't offer this role to any government. If you can't afford to do it... I won't continue down this path.
See my statement about Rep. Chris Butters...
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In the Quebec system high school ends at grade 11, but there is a 2 year college (cegep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cegep ) before university.
It is either a transition to university (shaving off a year of university) or a technical school, leading right to the job market.
Unfortunately making the last year of high school optional will just lead to more problems in the long run - can we all say welfare?
\"We've always had an option in place for early graduation,\" said Debra Roberts, chairwoman of the Utah Board of Education
So basically, this new law would be completely pointless. About 200 students are getting their credits and graduating early anyway. Why spend money on incentives trying to get more students to leave sooner? Isn't the point to save money?
They just want to lower the bar. have you not noticed this is the way commities react to things? The answer is always, lower the bar and charge the denizens for what we can.
If they eliminate 12th grade, then what prevents the 11th grade from being the same way since it's your last year.
I noticed that the teachers are against this in fear of their jobs but I smell a political favor coming that will benefit the teachers. I'm sure the union will approve of this as long as the teachers receive some compensation for the lack of doing any work.
Absolutely NOTHING!
NCLB isn't suppose to bring down the quality of learning, but heighten it. The problem I see with NCLB is that, most of the funding will go to richer neighborhoods because they have money to spend on quality education because they're catering to an upper class, while those that are in poverty to middle class suffers from a lower quality of learning because they can't get enough funding due to NCLB's \"grading\" system on each district and state.
I don't believe that states will truly follow this trend, as more than half the states have a High School Exit Exam including a Senior Project so they can graduate with a high school diploma. The reason why they started high school exit exams was due to the fact that they believed that students should know enough basic knowledge to survive in the world and be better citizens.
In my opinion, 12th grade should only be optional if, and only if, seniors are able to either go to a technical school to learn actual skill trades if they're not scholarly, or if they're able to attend a University or do AP classes that will help with their BA/BS. Not only that, maybe the state should help with half the tuition if the student has trouble paying (and I mean after filing for grants, scholarships, and FAFSA--and before going for a private loan). Not only would this benefit the state, but this would benefit the student as well.
The problem with NCLB is it encourages teachers and administration to get rid of any student who is not where they want them to be. Get rid of the \"baggage\" so to speak. If a kid has a learning disability, lets get rid of him, so he doesnt screw with our \"scores\". Let's have teachers teach toa test that is not educating, but indoctrinating students. Yes, in a district with avewrage incomes over 100k you will see less spending per pupil on education than in a district where you have rampant unemployment and serious poverty. When your parents can not pay the electricity or heat, sometimes you need extra help or facilities to \"pull yourself up\". The problem is the people who write laws all live in white picket fence suburban homes and are generally lily white.
If you want to know what the biggest predictor of college is, it is in every study. IF YOUR PARENTS WENT. If generations of your family have never had the chance either financially, or if you were in some states your race or ethnic heritage, then how can you expect them to succeed without spending the extra money it takes.
As far as students with disabilities (SWD) go, NCLB works as a double-edge sword because part of the coursework for a SWD is that they still have to take all tests, and take all courses that is aligned for a regular student to be able to graduate with a diploma. Some states have become inventive and allowed for waivers, or as an accommodation, they adjust the scores. Most states, however, are sensible at least to who qualifies as a waiver, and how to re-score a student (letters of recommendation from teacher of the subject that they failed including from the principle to be reviewed by a 'committee').
Unfortunately, you're right that a lot of the problem stems from school districts not caring about the impoverish community and not allowing them a chance. Some accommodations that students face as far as HS exit exams go is allowing black students to take the test in ebonics. How that ever passed as an actual accommodation boggles my mind.
\"NCLB isn't suppose to bring down the quality of learning, but heighten it. The problem I see with NCLB is that, most of the funding will go to richer neighborhoods because they have money to spend on quality education because they're catering to an upper class,\"
To a point; however, you will notice that per-student spending in impoverished districts if often higher than in wealthy districts. Impoverished students cost quite a bit more to educate than wealthy students, so NCLB does even worse when it directs funds away from impoverished districts to wealthy districts, since the impoverished districts require a higher baseline to begin with.
\"To a point; however, you will notice that per-student spending in impoverished districts if often higher than in wealthy districts. Impoverished students cost quite a bit more to educate than wealthy students, so NCLB does even worse when it directs funds away from impoverished districts to wealthy districts, since the impoverished districts require a higher baseline to begin with.\"
Do you have an article stating that student spending in impoverished districts is often higher than wealthy? Although this article is old source is a bit old (especially the data), we can only assume that it has gotten worse over the years especially if the problem seems like it's just recently been shown to light: http://nces.ed.gov/PUBSEARCH/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=97916
A lot of studies have shown that wealthy districts = parents with higher income = students being able to be better supported in academics.
I'm all for this. The last year of high school is largely worthless. Actually, I'd say the last two years. A lot of electives and other worthless things.
I left after my sophomore year and went to college. I got a great job a few months after I graduates, and I'd like to think I'm doing well.
\"The idea may sound crazy, but be honest -- how much did you really learn your senior year of high school?\"
An absolute freaking ton.
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I attended Community College most of my Senior year, taking a few last minute credits in highschool so I can graduate with the rest of my class. Dual credit is awesome.
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In keeping with strong Christian values so inherent with Utah, maybe school should just be optional for women, since they just stay home and pop out babies in Utah anyway.
Don't disemvowel me yet! Seriously, if someone wants to lives a \"traditional\" life and the state is so desperate to save money, let someone skip school if they believe they aren't going to be a part of the workforce anyway. It leaves more room for the rest of us to find a job!
This was the first thing I thought of as well. Sadly, here in Utah the emphasis is purely on creating more of onesself, as opposed to doing something notable with your life.
If they have the required credits I don't see what the problem is. It's not like they are missing out on required classes. I knew people who had the all the required credits and hence took pointless semesters that just wasted the schools money anyways. I don't see any problem with this.
This is the 2nd place I have seen the article linked with a \"ZOMG there cutting out senior year mentality\" and no mention of the fact that the credits required for graduation have not changed. On fark I expect to be missing info, but here on consumerist I would a more thorough look, and at least a mention of the fact that the basic graduation requirements have not changed.
I'm glad that my high school had such a flexible approach to our senior year - we could go to vocational training all day, go take college courses at the community college, skip gym class (because at that point, what does it matter?), take AP classes, and take groups of elective classes to prep us for college. I took two AP classes and bundled ceramics, sculpture, photography, drawing, and painting together so I could build my portfolio for art school.
I was accepted into the advanced program at my college halfway through my senior year in HS, just because I had that flexibility. It feels like Utah is giving up on their students altogether, rather than giving them options that might relieve the school a little bit. Sure, for some kids they might slack off, but I think that a majority of the seniors in my school go for the AP classes and community college credits - and it helps them greatly.
I must admit I was in a countdown mode. I passed everything(big fear of not graduating was a motivator)
But even if the seniors are given fluff courses it's that much more in their knowledge base. It's also one last chance to perfect anything from math to writing skills. The best course I had my senior year was an elective reading course. You read a book and wrote a 2 page summary after every book read. It helped my writing way more than a traditional writing course.
I would hope Utah has some type of high school diploma proficiency exam if nothing else. Then the students are forced to study for a reason.
OK, I’ll be honest, the public school system totally failed me from the beginning. I can only imagine how bad it is now.
My answer is to do the inevitable and simply close the school. Give parents back the money they would normally spend on the system and let the parents educate their children. Psst. Yea, I’m dreaming.
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I'd like to tell Phil \"fuck you!\" for the shot at Mississippi but they didn't teach me the word \"you\" in my Mississippi school. Idiot.
Also, I'm surprised so many people here took mostly optional classes their senior year. Either my high school had a lot more requirements or they set up schedules to make sure you still had required stuff in your senior year.
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My school had it set up that you could only get out of one or two major classes in senior year. I got out of math, I still had five major classes and three fluff, like every other year. I did take chorus as a major, that was fun. I think i skipped on gym, iirc, and had more free periods than other years, but i voluntarily took AP Spanish. I can't remember what my other fluff class was, but I remember hanging out with my friend in her pottery class a lot. So there was some freedom to wander the school like a nomad.
My high school had senior year options but they were mandatory. I think the only thing you didn't have to take was a math or science course. I wanted to take some more hardcore vocational courses but unless you were tracked into or opted in the votech programs by the 10th grade you were done.
But I think the lack of mandatory courses are definately a problem. And part of that problem is that the schools and teachers themselves are not capable of handling the masses. The public school systems have more problems than too many students and not enough money. They have too many 'teachers' that just want A job. That's part of the reason for the US is lacking in the math and sciences.
Even if the classrooms aren't taught by academic elitist they are taught by teachers who can't teach. I never had a decent math teacher until college where I passed a couple of calculus courses. High school teachers I noticed had trouble trouble shooting why a student wasn't getting it. The college professors I had could do that.
I think high schools need to emphasize the differences between a job and a career. They also need to emphasize that learning is a life long process. Too many get their diplomas,degrees,certifications etc and think that's all they need to know for life. They fail to progress or evolve. Just learn period.
They should expand HS so that you come out with an Associates degree. Then the minimum degree at colleges would be an MA.
I have a BS in electrical engineering, where would that leave people like me? You could not get my degree in highschool.
Chris Buttars is the biggest piece of shit in Utah. He tried to get creationism taught in public schools, he runs a 'youth rehabilitation' ranch that churns out a delinquent or two ending up on 'To Catch a Predator'. I have no idea why he is still in office and not screaming his ideas from random street corners like the rest of his kind are.
Hmm... Calculus, 2nd Class of Physics, Business Writing.... Yeah, I learned a good bit in High School. Maybe your school was lacking, but mine had a lot of options for those seniors who wanted to move forward.
60 million? is paltry compared to their budget short fall A.
B. while other countries have kids go to school for longer in the year and for more years, These people want to let 11th grade be it? sigh.... yep there's our future.
C. If you want to see a real budget short fall come to NJ 2.2 BILLION not million ppfftt.
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I don't know what it's like in the US, but where I went to high school in Canada, the final year was either a very inexpensive way to finish preparing yourself for University or a very pointless way to not prepare yourself for life.
If you weren't in an academic stream, and headed to university, 12th grade was just a giant time-suck.
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I spent my whole senior year taking classes I screwed around in my Freshman year. Having that year enabled me to graduate with a 3.5 instead of a 2.7. So I guess it was kind of useful. It was also useful in the sense that I was able to easily get a job after graduation because I was already 18. Many employers won't hire you till then because of child labor laws. I don't think making the senior year optional is really a good idea. There are still social skills these students need before heading out in the world. How about we just take the opportunity to enrich their lessons with real world classes like how to manage your credit, how to keep a job, how to budget your money, etc. Nothing like that is effectively taught in public schools in utah currently, so maybe it is time to start. It won't save money, but if you have an extra year of time to fill for these students, then you might as well make it useful.
You have to live in Utah to really understand the \"living in a bubble\" mentality. The limited media available does not want to offend the masses by telling the harsh truths. The Mormon church rules nearly every aspect of life in Utah. It's a mass of very right-wing blind sheep. The educational system is just another way to employ church members in high paying fluff jobs.
The 12th grade makes little difference to the majority of students. Utah is certainly in the bottom three states with the worst standardized test scores, if not the lowest in the nation. In fact, Utah spends the least per child of all 50 states, and still, a significant portion of the money for schools is siphoned off at the top. Illiteracy is rampant, even among those who graduate.
At that time I went to high school in Utah the state was on the 19th percentile in English. My score was 86%, the highest in the school, by far. I had just moved to Utah from Kansas where I was an average student.
Many of the girls I knew personally were married by the age of 14, some 13, although others held off until graduation. Girls do not need an education and even they get a degree, they will be paid almost half what their male counterparts get, even in government jobs. My mother was a government employee there.
An example of how high ranking church members siphon off money. My father is disabled but couldn't get social security when we lived in Utah. Utah took all the SS money and distributed it to the six (6) disabled people the state could afford to support with the federal money. The rest of the money (>99%) was spent on wages for a bunch of high paid professionals in a large shiny building. These people would test to see if you were really handicapped. They determined that my father was not handicapped because he was intelligent and could overcome the loss of one sense. So blind people, deaf people, etc. do not need to get SS in Utah if you are smart. We moved to California where our federal SS money was paid without question.
Dear God, where did you live, Colorado City? Your claim of loads of girls being married by 13 and 14 is insane.
As for limited media? WTF!?!?! We have the exact same media as the rest of the planet. It's not like there's an LDS blockade on the news like a China blackout. Last time I checked, I have the exact same media opportunities as everyone else in the USA.
TG you left, because I am really sick of people who just love to bash Utah, and stay here and make life hell for the rest of us. Are there things which need fixing, of course, but these also exist everywhere.
You have to get out of the valley to see what I mean. The Deseret News (aka SL Tribune) has a major right-wing slant as do the local TV stations. They all cater to a certain perspective which reinforces that particular mindset. I will concede that nowadays with satellite TV and the internet, things may be improving slightly. When I was living there, Kramer vs. Kramer was banned from cable, along with the TV series Soap. I haven't lived in Hunter / WVC since 83, so maybe people have all changed. Oh, wait, standardized tests still put Utah dead last; probably not. Utah is America's own little Afghanistan.
You haven't lived here for nearly 30 years and you seem to think that Utah has been living in a time capsule waiting for your return.
Guess what, things have changed. Private Clubs are no more. Nothing gets censored on cable. If KSL won't show something that NBC sends out (ala SNL) then channel 15 gladly carries the program, and gets the ratings to match.
Maybe you need to let go of your anger over Utah, especially as you are working off of very old and outdated information.
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I moved from Massachusetts to Florida in 10th grade.
The public school systems in Florida were ridiculous. In my 10th grade English class, they were going over the difference between using \"them\" and \"those\".
I transferred to a different high school and it was even worse - plus I got my ass kicked several times and stuff thrown at me.
So, I obtained my GED when I was 16, worked full-time and went to college.
I'm sorry. I have to say it:
\"God dammit Buttars.\"
/Southpark
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I could have easily gotten my diploma after my junior year. I took the one class I would have needed in summer school, just to get it out of the way, my senior schedule was already full with English/Home Ec (1/2 year each), math, two science classes (Chem II and Physics), Band and at least one more class of which I can't remember. It wasn't Social Studies, chorus, Phys Ed, or another language. Hmmm. That bugs me now. And I wasn't about to get out early.
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Thought schools got paid for how many students they had in attendence? This would seem counter-productive, unless it is different in Utah.
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Our education system is horrific anyway. I don't know about Utah, but when I lived in IL and taught college classes part time for several semesters, I was horrified at the lack of VERY basic English and math skills being displayed by my freshman.
From that standpoint, I'm not sure it would make much difference if you made all of high school optional. We're really bad at teaching our kids anything anyway.
This idea is a crazy a$$ed one from Utah's craziest, most bigoted, and loudest lawmaker. Sen. Chris Buttars gets a crap load of coverage for all his lousy ideas. He also believes gays are more dangerous than terrorists, have NO morals, and love da pig sex.
I really wouldn't put a lot of stock into any idea that idiot says, and I wish that the media would stop giving this embarrassment to the state of Utah a platform.
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If they wanted to take care of this effectively, they would strike up a deal with the local community colleges and create something like Washington state's program where kids above 10th grade can finish their high school credits in college. OR, they could go to year-round schooling and require the kids finish a year early with all of their credits. OR they could encourage their best performers to just take the GED and move early into community college. OR they could invest a final amount of money in creating a certain amount of courses that a students could take online, at home, so they only had to pay for enough teachers to guide self-study.
Its stupid they're reaching for this wholly inadequate answer when we HAVE the ability to work this out, but they really don't want to make any real changes to how education works in this country, just cut off the current system's balls.
-Disgruntled M.Ed.
Oh, and I guess the last option would be open enrollment/open exit models, where the kids come in, work through the curricula consecutively in rooms with teachers, and graduate as soon as they've fulfilled the state requirements for completion. I've worked in a school like this, and it actually works shockingly well.
I learned nothing because I dropped out and went to college. Best idea EVER.
Hi! I did, in fact, skip my last year of high school - I didn't graduate (though I was only a few credits short), and I went directly to a top-tier college. This is a good option. I probably would've just gone ahead and taken the last few classes (and English class and anything else I wanted) at night or in the summer, but my school had a policy *against* letting people graduate early.
Some points:
1) There are a number of options for students to leave early without graduating and start college right away.
2) Many public schools are very poor, and don't have a large enough class offering for advanced students. The only classes left for me to take were AP English, AP Calc, and AP Western History. The calc teacher never had any student score above a 2 on the AP test, and I already had problems with the History teacher. Staying an extra year at school to take one worthwhile class and a bunch of junk classes would've been a waste of my time and the school's strapped resources.
3) Some states/school systems make it prohibitively difficult for students to either quickly earn a few remaining credits or take the GED. My state (GA) would've required me to take 6 months of \"preparation\" courses for the test - preparation that I did not need. If Utah wants to make it easier for students to leave early, more power to them.
4) Perhaps this should not be an option for middle or lower achieving students, but I think the article does say that the students will still have to have enough credits to graduate in order to leave, so that should cut out struggling students who could use an extra year in HS.
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Instead of calling it \"skipping 12th grade\", it should be \"Accelerated Graduation\" and be limited to only those students who are enrolled in an accredited college or technical school. All others need to stay in school and finish the 12th grade. If for no other reason than to allow those students more time to plan their future.
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Not a ton, but now they'll just do that \"junior\" year instead.
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At my school, you could take some extra classes junior year and graduate early. Most kids didn't do it, I did.
Senior year is ever so pesky for the 16 year old bride of a 50 year old polygamist.
GAH!!! The polygamists don't send their kids to public school so this doesn't even matter to them.
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My senior year of high school was also my most academically intensive year in HS. 4 AP classes and 2 honors on top of a job.
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Just in case anyone from out of state is curious, this is the same idiot that (inadvertently, according to him) made racial comments from the capital floor along with other \"proofs of idiocy\" as I like to call them. And yet he was re-elected in 2008. People like him make me ashamed to say I live in Utah.
Senior year was the best year of my life. I wouldn't trade it for a job or early college. You know the teachers well, you're the top dogs of the school, if you're a varsity athelete you're a god; really, if you're in any club and have been you're in a certain leadership position. And you can DRIVE. Haven't you people seen Dazed and Confused? That's what my whole year was like. I haven't been as confident, laid-back, and knew what I was doing with my life since I was 17.
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Totally true for some, but how about those of us who consider our high school years the worst of our lives? Keep the 12th grade for those who find it worthwhile, but make it easier for those of us who were miserable each day to get out as soon as we meet the graduation requirements. No reason to force everyone into the same mold.
If not entirely eliminated, 12th grade should certainly be optional.
Having met all Maryland's graduation requirements within three years, I went right from 11th grade to my freshman year of college. It's not like I'm super-duper smart; I was just bored to tears with the hormonal holding pen that was my high school.
Considering the zillion hoops I had to jump through to get permission to do this, I'm all for any state that wants to make the process easier for interested students.
I wish my school would have let me do this. By my senior year, I had almost all required credits, and was taking 3 unnecessary electives.I would have much rather spend that time earning college credit. I would have missed Graduation and Project Grad (its an over night party the night we graduate where all seniors spend the night at a place, ours was a Dave and Busters, to prevent drinking/driving that night, and the next day they give away a car).
I didnt go to Prom as I was single at the time and the location of the prom sucked. Everyone I know who did go, regretted it as the hotel they had it at had a broken air conditioner that night, the DJ was terrible, and the food was no good. Most of us met up after prom and had a blast though.
I think half days for seniors would be awesome.
If you think that is interesting, Idaho is thinking about paying people to skip their senior year:
I guess my school was rather strange, but then again I went to school in New England, so maybe that's the difference. I graduated in 95... We had some AP classes, but they were not credit classes for college, they were prep classes. Math, of the main 4 subjects, was the only course not requiring 4 years.
Though I feel my school should have used that 4th math class and made it that if you weren't taking an AP math class, then you should have to take a basic finance class. I took accounting, but I would have loved to have taken a basic personal finance class.
The arguments of \"some kids are not cut out for school\" are bullshit. It's poor parenting... every kid COULD complete 4 years of standard high school if they wanted to, and if their parents made sure they did it.
Parents suck and lawmakers suck and teachers suck and kids suck. There is enough suckage all the way around for everyone to point the finger at everyone else.
I'm fucking tired of no one pointing the finger at themselves... where is the god damn social responsibility anymore?(as an aside, I'm not religious, so my 'god damn' doesn't carry as much weight as if it came from a religious person, but I just enjoy the phrase).
I'd be for this if those who were allowed to skip the 4th year were a) required to take some sort of post high school education (junior college, regular college/university or technical college) and b) had successfully passed a competency exam to be allowed to move on.
I don't think its a good idea just to graduate earlier and/or cut costs and I don't think its a good idea for all student to be eligible.
A program like this may actually motivate students to work harder in the first three years of high school.
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Do kids in Utah care about things like Senior Prom and walking through graduation with all your friends that you have known for the past 12 years? I know my Senior year was half-assed because I was pretty much down with all the important credits. It would have been nice to have been able to take some classes that would have counted for college credits though.
I think it depends on the size of the school. My school was fairly small and most of the kids were the same from K-12. So, I had more of a bond with them which made events like prom and graduation a big deal to me. However, I know people who went to larger schools that had large classes and people from different areas coming together in the high school years, and that stuff was less of a big deal to them since they didn't know 3/4 of their class.
I graduated a semester early from high school and went to community college for a semester. My parents made me go back fro my graduation ceremony in june. I would have been happy to never go, but I didn't have a choice. IT was boring and a waste of time.
Looking back at prom, it was a colossal waste of money. I would probably been much happier just hanging out with some of my close friends than wasting all that money on some vapid date I would barely see again.
Senior Prom is quite antiquated in my and all my friend's opinions. We don't live in the 50's anymore where Prom and Graduation were quite literally two of the four highlights of your life (getting married and having first born I would say are the other two.) Maybe I'm just jaded because every other year my friends missed their prom because of a major athletic even conflict. Besides, who wants to go to some dumb ballroom in your local Marriott to be watched dancing by your teachers while your \"less classy\" peers have sex on the dance floor under the cover of darkness? I can think of many more ways to have fun.
I find graduation just to be as stupid - and I was one of the people who go to sit up on the podium with the nice cushy chairs and water bottles and give a speech - yet the whole time I just wanted to get out of there. At my younger sister's graduation my older sister and I just made smart/snide comments and corrected the speakers' grammar the whole time (only to each other of course.) My older sister didn't even go to her graduation, she was busy building a school in Mexico. It's a dead tradition in my heart.
At my school, if you had enough credits you could graduate mid-year. Some did that, and then went on to the local satellite campus of the state university to take some college courses before they moved on to their college of choice.