9 replies

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jimv2000

@Willow01: Hence the reason I love my PC.

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JediJohn82

@Willow01:

Sony is a big mean corporation just like Microsoft. They wouldn't think twice about banning a PS3 from their network either; and you'd get the same crappy answers from their customer support.

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John

@JediJohn82: Right but at least the PSN isn't a distinct payed for service like live is. I also somehow doubt that the PSN bans number in the millions.

Frankly Sony and Microsoft can both decide who they want to let play and who they want to ban, let the market decide if the practice is acceptable.

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Willow01

@JediJohn82: I have both a 360 and a PS3....I just love my PS3 more.

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Cyberxion101

@Willow01: I have all three. I love my Wii most, followed by my PS3, then my 360. However, I use and enjoy them all. :)

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LadySiren is murdering her kids with HFCS and processed cheese

@Cyberxion101: After watching all the RRoD stories, we decided to go with a Wii. Also seems to have a better spread of games for the range of ages we have in the house.

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Cyberxion101

@JediJohn82: No doubt. I had issues getting the Playstation store to accept my credit card, and nobody at Sony seemed at all interested in helping me in any meaningful way.

Every e-mail I sent to their support address was met with links to their online help repository, and when I managed to get someone on the phone to talk about the problem, they told me to buy a PSN card.

Yeah, I know that I have that option, but I was after a $5.99 PSX game. I didn't want to have to spend a minimum of $20 to get it. Which I would imagine is why Sony doesn't want to take steps to correct the problem.

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Nintenboy01

@Cyberxion101: Try to match the Address info EXACTLY with what appears on your credit card statement. My pal had a similar issue. Use all caps if necessary.

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Cyberxion101

@Nintenboy01: Oh, I went through all those steps, trust me. That's what made it so frustrating. Nobody could tell me why my card wasn't working, and for the most part, nobody seemed to care.

However, the situation improved after I moved. I changed the address on file to my new location, and now I'm good to go. :)

@LadySiren: I enjoy mine very much. In fact I play Wii Sports Resort every night. The game comes highly recommended if you don't already have it. :)

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sp00nix

@Willow01: +1

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Rask

@OMG! SP00N: Sony can ban consoles from accessing PSN. This isn't a 360-only problem. Wait till Blu-Ray is cracked and modding becomes prevalent.

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zibby

@OMG! SP00N: Can we please, please not get into the debate how the xBox 360 is an unreliable piece of crap and Microsoft stinks and doesn't care about their customers vs. how the PS3 is...I dunno, expensive. Or something.

It's all been said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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sqlrob

@Willow01:
Sony bans too. They're getting sued over it.

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gerrylum

I highly doubt he'll be able to get the ban liften. He probably should just give in and get a couple new Xboxes and pray it doesn't happen again.

Or just get PS3s.

5 replies

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Razor512

@gerrylum: the reason why this happens is because microsoft is going crazy about people pirating games and there just hurting the legit customers instead

when you use the xbox 360, microsoft scans the data on it and compares it with what their server has and then it bans you if it is different,

the problem is the data can be different is a packet is dropped or corrupt (a ISP throttling can cause packets to be dropped which can be mistaken for modding because for example, if a game server does acd key check, or windows update does a cd key check and the packets keep getting dropped or corrupted, it will just allow you to get the update or connect to the game server because it doesn't want to wrongly lock you out but because of this, these connection problems can be simulated and microsoft will then see it as modded console activity and ban the console (they only check once and ban)

many modding groups get around it by soldering a serial connection directly to the motherboard and re-flashing it with a different id and redesign their mods until they no longer result in a console ban, then when all of the work is done, the update is released to the world, so the modders have no problem while the legit users suffer through false positives and unhelpful tech support

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BWoodle

@Razor512: I'm sorry but that's not the way connunication over the internet works. If packets are dropped using TCP the protocol immediately recognizes it and resends it. By the time the data is gathered on the other end it is guaranteed to be the same as it was on the other end. If they are using UDP to transfer the data they will have the packet detection built into the application layer.

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zacox

@gerrylum: Why the hell should this OP support Microsoft anymore? This is the kind of thing that would make me want to unload everything completely. Sell it on eBay, sell the games to Gamestop or put an ad in the newspaper or something.

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temporaryerror

@zacox:
Selling the console(s) on ebay will screw over someone else. Bad karma points.

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gerrylum

@temporaryerror: As long as he's honest about it in the description, I don't see the harm. At least he'd be able to recoup a BIT of his money for the system.

I have seen a lot of banned X-boxes going up on ebay lately, though. I wouldn't expect to get more than $50 max for it.

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zibby

@gerrylum: Nah, having a trouble-free system like that would be waaaaay too easy.

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eskimo81

EECB?

DRM sucks, and it sucks even worse when the company refused to fix it when it goes wrong.

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Awjvail

I wonder how many times Xbox support has heard that one... \"BUT I DIDN'T MOD MY CONSOLE! THIS IS A SCAM! I SWEAR!\"

So... if I read correctly, Microsoft is going to look into the issue? Sure, it'll take a few weeks. With the mass bannings of consoles lately, you can expect it to take a little while...

3 replies

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Cyco

@Awjvail: While he is upset about the bannings, I think the biggest issue is with the treatment he has been receiving by customer service. The employees are acting like MS is infalible and everyone is guilty period, no chance for innocense. While I'm sure 99% of the bannings were spot on, mistakes can and, I'm sure, were made. They should treat everyone with the same respect, no matter what they did to their personal property that they bought, not rented.

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howie_in_az

@Awjvail: Oh, yeah, sure, that's fine that people can't play their online games or otherwise use their legitimately purchased system for n number of weeks/months. It's not like a very popular online game just launched or anything.

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ShadowFalls

@howie_in_az:

True, but they should at least reimburse you for the lost Gold time for something of no fault of your own.

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akuma_x

They only ban your system, not your Live account. He can switch consoles with his fiance and setup his Live account on there. This doesn't solve the real problem that he was banned to begin with but at least gives him a way to play online again.

6 replies

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trrwilson

@akuma_x: In addition to banning the console, the user's gamertag is also tagged. Their saves and stuff under that gamertag can still be used offline on teh banned console, but if they try and load it one that isn't, the gamertag gets corrupted and the saves become unusable.

A friend of mine was banned and explained this to me. I hope I got the info right.

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Stephmo

@akuma_x: With the mod bannings, MS has gotten stricter in the last few years. If you have one modded system in your home, but play on two or three machines, they'll ban all the machines.

This was in response to complaints that heavy duty cheaters that were banned pretty much kept spares around for this very reason and were up and running within 30 seconds of a ban. Basically, you do have to come up with an unused box never tied to the original box now.

The bannings were over 600,000 accounts by all reports. And people are going bonkers - a certain corner of the internet got a visit from an executive in their chat area asking that the death threats stop:

[paste2.org]

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Android8675

@akuma_x: ...nevermind the fact that he already spent $5k on MS products, and then MS bans him as soon as he slacks off on his monthly shopping spree of MS products.

Convenient timing? or conspiracy!?

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Framling

@JGKojak: Why, if they own the network, is Microsoft not allowed to do with it whatever the hell they want?

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Optimus

@Framling: Because they agreed to allow people to use it so long as they don't modify their console and do pay to use it. Microshaft must at least prorate refund the account subscription in order to be legally observing contract law.

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Optimus

@Optimus: And that includes all downloaded content.

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Madjia

@akuma_x:

I think he said that both consoles have gotten banned, so he can't do anything right now

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akuma_x

@Madjia: If that is the case, it's confusion on my part. I thought he said his wife's Xbox is never played on Live, just networking together to play Left 4 Dead with him.

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TakingItSeriously is a Technopile

I'll have to check my 360.

I opened the HDD enclosure once my warranty expired to see what sort of drive they had in there since I only have a 20GB drive, and was considering a back end upgrade. If they banned me they've lost a customer for life. I 100% understand the need to control access to the hardware when the appliance is under warranty, but once the warranty is expire that mthfckr is MINE!

6 replies

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parad0x360

@TakingItSeriously is Simon: They ban modified consoles because of piracy not because of warranty issues.

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DrKai

@parad0x360:

It is likely that when his original Xbox RRoD'ed, the \"fixed\" replacement sent by Microsoft was a refurbished unit (the revived carcass from someone else's RRoD'ed Xbox). That unit could have been modded in the past without his knowledge and triggered his ban.

Sadly, the most cost-effective way around this is to purchase a brand new $199 unit and transfer your account over to it. You could spend hours and hours on the phone, sending emails and complaining in support forums.

This is win-win for Microsoft, win-lose for Consumers.

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Rask

@TakingItSeriously is Simon: The console may be yours but they still can refuse the hardware from accessing the service if they determine that it's been modified in any way, shape or form.

It's all about preserving the integrity of the online experience on XBL.

Did the original poster buy the 360's on ebay or other meant where the console may have been modified before purchase? Used from GameStop perhaps? Do any of the 68 games that the OP owns have the title of the game written with a sharpie on the disk?

Or is Microsoft starting to have some false positives with their monitoring system?

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Difdi

@Rask: This sort of thing reminds me of the Windows Genuine Advantage false positives.

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akuma_x

@TakingItSeriously is Simon: They wont ban you for opening your HD enclosure. Only if you put a modchip in your system or modify the firmware to your DVD drive. So you shouldn't have any issue.

As to your comment about the machine is yours, you are right. That being said they aren't stopping you from playing your games, just from using the Live service to play multiplayer games which you pay a service fee for. Just like your internet provider might suspend or terminate your service because you have a virus on it sending out spam and you don't take care it. The computer is your hardware to do what you wish but when you impact their network with a virus they have a right to refuse that service to you for impacting their network.

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pahncrd

@akuma_x: They also stop you from installing games to the hard drive and using your saves on unbanned systems. It is getting a little too draconian.

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Dyscord

@pahncrd: If they let you use saves from a banned console on an unbanned one, that would defeat the whole purpose of the banning

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AirIntake

@Dyscord: Uh no, the purpose of banning is to keep modified systems off of XBL. Saved games have little to do with it.

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SkuldChan

@AirIntake: Yeah the saves did - hence why they banned all 3rd party memory cards. People were editing them to get achievements they didn't actually get.

In my eyes this whole think reaks of bad security on MS's part. Saves should be encrypted, hard drives should have been encrypted.

Everyone knows you can use 3rd party hardware on a PS3? I learned how to install a 3rd party HDD on Sony's PS3 blog!

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Keavy_Rain

@AirIntake: I think the reason they block saves has to do with the people who do the \"achievement unlock\" trick, where they magically gain thousands of points of gamerscore overnight.

I don't know exactly how it works, but there are guides online and sites that supply you with the save games necessary to do it, which is why MS blocks saves. Its also why they're banning third-party storage devices with the November firmware update.

As for the guy above, he either got modded hardware from somewhere (I've heard stories of people swapping the guts from 360's and returning them to stores) or his repaired console triggered a false positive. I had a false positive on a repaired console back when they'd RROD modded units. Thankfully back then MS had some sense, clearly saw my unit was a refurb, and sent me a new one.

As for this guy, buying two Arcades or dropping an EECB seem like his only options. I just hope he saved his repair information from the faulty unit, as that will help his case if its a false positive or someone in the repair center didn't do their job and sent him modded hardware.

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Dyscord

@AirIntake: Couldn't you play a game with modified characters and such, save it and then transfer it to another system?

Then again, there are a few games that you can't transfer saves from in the first place, so this might be moot.

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PriceIsWrong

I wonder if the OP got his system used or refurbished? I've heard stories about some stores like Gamestop not doing an actual check like Microsoft does, so it's possible someone modded the one he has, an he didn't even know about it.

I logged in to find myself banned the other day, and I bought mine off of Woot about a year ago, so I'm wondering how \"Refurbished\" my system was.

I've honestly been waiting to hear something more about it, but my kids can still play their games, and I don't let them play online anyway, so until I hear more info, I'm just gonna wait.

6 replies

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coren

@PriceIsWrong: But if his was modded (and it does sound like he got a refurb) how did he not get caught months and months ago, rather than just now (they've had at least five months online with this console, given his HD upgrade)

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Keavy_Rain

@coren: MS banhammers in one massive wave to prevent modders from figuring out what exactly triggers the ban.

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trujunglist

@PriceIsWrong:

Actually MS does NOT check consoles that come in for RROD repair for mods. There is an entire thread on this on slickdeals. MS often sends out an entirely new (refurbed) console to those that get RROD. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what happened.

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dp05

This isn't so much of a DRM issue as it is an issue with proper use of the banhammer. MS decided to crack down big time on modded consoles (i.e., ones that allow you to play burned games that you didn't pay for, etc.), and apparently some legit consoles are feeling the wrath as well.

Kind of stinks for this guy because I happen to know of a couple people who's modded consoles are still working.

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parad0x360

@dp05: The bans come when MS detects modified dvd drive firmware which allows piracy of xbox 360 games.

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Applekid

@dp05: It's completely draconian. They could opt on the side of the customer and let some of the guilty pass through, or they could opt on the side of vengeful greed and take down some of the innocents.

That Microsoft is not only missing the guilty but banning the innocent is completely sdrawkcab ssa.

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dp05

@Applekid: Update: The people I knew with modded consoles felt the wrath of the banhammer over the last couple days, so there is some justice in the world.

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dp05

@Applekid: Agreed.

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skwish

basically what microsoft was doing was when your console logged online they are compairing the firmware found in that console to the list of offical firmware they have released.... If it does not match up then the colsole is banned from xbox live.

If this guy is actually being honest (but then again how many people in the defendants chair dont plead thier innocence) they only way this could happen is if he somehow got himself a modded \"refurbished\" console back when he sent his xbox in for repair... but that also depends on if he sent it back to microsoft or another retailer who did the repair

4 replies

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KeithIrwin

@skwish: I tend to think that this poster is correct that what's happened is that Microsoft compared the firmware on the user's machine to authorized firmwares and found a mismatch. However, there is an explanation which would explain this without anyone having modified the console. It is possible that the flash memory on which the firmware is stored is faulty. Bad bits, although rare, do happen sometimes and this could be the cause of a mismatch. Also, it is possible that the firmware was misread this one time due to a transient internal communication error. These are even rarer, but also occur. There's also a possibility of a transient external communication error (i.e. the firmware had the correct checksum, but when the X-Box 360 communicated this back to Microsoft there was an undetected error in the communication). These are all possibilities. Each is unlikely to happen to any one individual, but it wouldn't be surprising if this happened to at least some individuals.

Essentially, when you've got a 1 in a million chance of something happening to someone and you've got 20 million users, it's nearly certain that it will happen to someone. Assuming Jeff is telling the truth then it's probably been caused by an error of this nature or possibly a bug in the code used for checking.

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lannister80

@skwish: That's not \"the only way\". Microsoft's system may have screwed up and flagged his Xbox incorrectly. This stuff is far from perfect.

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MauriceCallidice

@skwish: Sure, sometimes the \"innocent\" are guilty. But there have been lots of high-profile cases recently where individuals imprisoned for years or decades have been exonerated by new evidence (usually DNA). They protested their innocence for years, but few people believed them until the new evidence came to light.

I don't buy that the \"only way this could happen\" was if his xbox was modded somewhere along the way. Microsoft could just have a screwed-up verification process which give false positives when looking for modded consoles.

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Lucid003

@MauriceCallidice: You should probably consider that your \"DNA\" comment directly applies to the situation at hand. Microsoft has a way of directly checking if the console's \"DNA\" matches the standard \"DNA.\" It's pretty hard to have false positives.

Odds are that the people involved either bought used consoles that were modded... OR they took them in for repairs somewhere. In other words, the user may not have known, but ignorance is no excuse.

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Hooray4Zoidberg

@Lucid003: Getting DNA on your XBox probably voids the warranty.

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triscuitbiscuit

If you read his post, he did technically mod it. He took it to a local shop where the person replaced his fan with another one. Although he didn't do anything else (supposedly), this is in all technicalities modding of the console. In the letter to the consumerist, he mysteriously left that part out....

5 replies

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Colonel Jack O'Neill

@triscuitbiscuit:
I don't think it's the same person.

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akuma_x

@triscuitbiscuit: That isn't his thread that's linked in post above. Just a link he provided to show other people were having issues too. His fan was never replaced.

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SatanicGuinea

@triscuitbiscuit: Its irrelevant. If no modchips or unauthorized firmware was installed then M$ has no business caring.

What, having a real fan inside the box gives the player an unfair advantage? LOL. Yeah I guess his XBOX wont overheat in the middle of a game.

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parad0x360

@SatanicGuinea: @shepd: They do not ban people for too many games. I own over 100 xbox 360 games and my xbox live profile has more games than that listed as being played.

They ban for 1 reason and 1 reason only. Detecting modified dvd firmware.

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subtlefrog

@triscuitbiscuit: And you know this how?

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pararescuejmper

A good friend of mine writes for a game website and he told me about a news story he reported on...if you go to a used game store and buy a used box that has been banned that you now own a $300 paper weight. You will not be able to connect to live with that box. I thought that was horrible. I use Live and I love playing my 360 but I have to sort of push who owns the company and their policies to the back of my mind.

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semanticantics

You don't have to start a new XBL account. The console is banned, not the account.

As for why it was banned, if you get through to someone and they are actually willing to take a look, the warranty sticker inside and such will have to be intact.

I also ask if either / both decks were bought 2nd hand. Consoles / accounts can be flagged months in advance.

On the plus side, if the deck stays banned, you can mod it to play backups now.

3 replies

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semanticantics

@semanticantics: @triscuitbiscuit:

Yup. Having a local shop install a fan is \"modding\". Not all \"modding\" means \"make it play games I downloaded over the internet\".

Buy a new deck for $140 at Gamestop.

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AirIntake

@semanticantics: Except there's no way for MS to detect a new fan in the system and ban for it.

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supergaijin

@AirIntake:

Yes there is. If the new fan uses even slightly different voltage, the motherboard is completely willing and able to report that. \"Upgrading\" the fan CAN get the banhammer, it IS a mod.

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Dyscord

@semanticantics: Or buy a brand new deck.

This is EXACTLY why I will not buy a used 360.

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JGKojak

Why the hell is it a problem he \"mods\" his console???

I get it if he's using pirated software- but replacing a fan or putting in a new HD? Why is that wrong and why, if I own the system, am I not allowed to do with it whatever the hell I want?

5 replies

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parad0x360

@JGKojak: MS doesnt ban for anything other than dvd firmware mods. You can add as many damn fans as you want but once you start messing with the code that runs the system your all done.

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Dyscord

@JGKojak: @JGKojak: Because if they let you do that, you could run software that can cause grief for other players. Apparently they notice that the hardware isn't from Microsoft and could potentially be a mod, so they don't take any chances.

Banning a console doesn't mean you can't play it. You just can't go online with it.

The funny thing is that Microsoft isn't the only company to crack down on mods and such. Look at Sony and the PSP, or Nintendo and the DS (even if they are rather lenient about it).

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bigd7387

@JGKojak:
Read your agreement for you system or software. You may own the physical device but you do not own what actually makes it run, you only rent or lease the actual use of the system. Its called intellectual property and has been proven to exist by the highest courts in all the countries. The system is designed to be used a certain way and thats it and other use is considered a breach of contract and your using it will be terminated. If you don't like the terms of use don't buy or use the product. Not one company forced you to purchase it.

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Cyberxion101

@bigd7387: It voids your warranty at worst, but cannot be used as justification for banning your Live account. Besides, Microsoft wouldn't have any f'ing way of knowing that you put a case fan in your console in the first place, so that the guy in the link did is coincidental at best, but not a symptom of the problem.

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ktetch

@bigd7387: Actually, \"Intellectual property\" doesn't exist. Thats a common term encompassing several quite separate areas of the law (copyrights, patents, trademarks) which don't even interact with each other.

I've also yet to see any court agreement which has ever ruled on the validity of these clickwrap agreements, so can you point me to them?

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Scuba Steve

@ktetch: I've seen many courts uphold EULAs.

[www.playnoevil.com]

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halcyondays

Spending $5200 on video games is a remarkable waste of money.

13 replies

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SkuldChan

@halcyondays: You probably spend as much on frivolous entertainment as well - just not on video games.

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Mobius

@halcyondays: Trolling the internets is a remarkable waste of time. Repying to trolls is a remarkable waste of time.

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coren

@halcyondays: To me, spending that much on alcohol is a remarkable waste of money, but I bet I know people who have done that in the span of a few years (which is about how long he's had his console). I don't drink, so it's aok for me to pass judgment on those who do, right?

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Tiaris

@halcyondays: We thank you for your Judgement, sir.

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Quatre707

@halcyondays: Video games are a hobby, and a pretty inexpensive hobby actually. Talk to someone who does woodworking, restores cars, or one of 100 other common hobbies that cost more.

rioja951 - Why, oh why must I be assigned to the vehicle maintenance when my specialty is demolitions?

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@Quatre707: Try pyrotechnic, now there is one expensive hobby!

But you area right, video games are rather inexpensive for a hobby, but like it was said before, if you add up the cost from your first console to now it could be a staggering amount of money. I practice with my pyro hobby and also have multiple consoles(I'm from the intellivision and atari 2600 era), and still tend to play those old bricks for the nostalgic felling.

Want to do some math? I have been collecting the consoles since atari 2600 onward, so guess how much money has been dumped on that little hobby?

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jaya9581

@halcyondays: $5200 is nothing. I've probably spent close to that on JUST World of Warcraft in the last 5 years, with multiple accounts.

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coren

@jaya9581: No offense, but that's just ridiculous. How many is \"multiple\"?

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AnthonyC

@halcyondays:
Really? I guess you haven't considered this too deeply.

All people spend some money on entertainment in one form or another. What forms of entertainment should they choose?

Certain particularly inexpensive options are friendly card games or network television. TV watched online can be inexpensive as well. Most people are going to pay for their internet access and cable whether they use it much or not, so using it is certainly preferable. But very few people are going to be happy never doing anything fun other than watching tv or surfing the web.

Night at the movies? For 2 people, $20 for tickets, maybe $10 for snacks, for about 3 hours of entertainment.

Eating dinner out? Anywhere from $20-$100 for a couple of hours.

1 good video game? $40-$60 for a new release (less for older or used games), for anywhere from 20-100 hours of entertainment per person, depending on the game and genre.

Now, entertainment values of different media will vary from person to person, but in terms of dollars per hour, it is difficult to do much better than a good video game.

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tonberry

@halcyondays: i think you meant to say
\"Spndng $5200 n vd gms s rmrkbl wst f mny.\"

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PriceIsWrong

@halcyondays:
Not having kids = Disposable income.

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chocobo

@halcyondays: So is spending $5200 on tickets to sporting events, or clothes, or skydiving, or whatever you happen to be into.

People spend their money in dumb ways that happen to be fun for them. Shockingly, not every dollar earned is used for long-term investments, paying bills, or helping the needy.

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Blueskylaw

@chocobo:

Points well made. But Damn, it's still $5200 for video games.

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Trai_Dep

@Blueskylaw: Sigh. When I think of how far $5,200 will get me at shady Tijuana bars... The booze. The powders. The adorable, winsome sheep with their come-hither looks...

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tonberry

@Blueskylaw: thats really not that much. i have spent more than that total for all my systems and games, that goes back to the atari 2600 and i own all three current gen systems. it adds up over the years.

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Colonel Jack O'Neill

Maybe the HDD that he had bought is a return, and someone put a mod on there before they returned it, then he just so happened to buy that same HDD.

2 replies

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Mobius

@Colonel Jack O'Neill: And it was from Best Buy. It probably was used by Geek Squad as a porno stash previously.

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Keen314

@Colonel Jack O'Neill: Exactly what I was thinking.

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jeffs3rd

If both consoles are banned, then MS probably went as far as to not only ban the console itself but the IP address also.

As the thread says, the poster had some local guy modify his xbox. Sorry, you lose.

Also, in the live TOS it says that they can ban as they see fit. Is it right? No. But that is the law set forth by MS on their service and they are enforcing it on this guy. I normally don't support MS on an issue, but with this it's kind of spelled out in black & white: you cant do what this guy did.

rioja951 - Why, oh why must I be assigned to the vehicle maintenance when my specialty is demolitions?

4 replies

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@jeffs3rd: And how are they going to know what IP address to block? Common DSL services are dynamic addresses that tend to refresh and change about every 24 hours, not fixed address per client.

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NikkiSweet

@rioja951>Back to basics boys! Fuel, accelerants / oxidizers and fire...: Not just DSL... Cable IP addresses are typically dynamic as well, but on a longer timeframe.

and just FYI, I have never modded my system, but I was caught in the ban as well because \"it appears we have too many systems connected.\" I live in a house with 4 other people. We're all gamers. Every bedroom has a 360, as well as the living room and \"computer\" room. Yes.. we have 7 360's in my house. And apparently that is suspicious to MS.

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Nicksonc20

@jeffs3rd:

The poster in the thread is a different guy. The OP is only using that as an example to show how poor the Microsoft customer service on its forums are.

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Dyscord

@Nicksonc20: @Applekid: Well how do they know he DOESN'T have modded software if he won't send it in? If they made a mistake they'll unban his console.

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Cyberxion101

@Dyscord: You keep going on about that, but the only evidence that Microsoft ever offered that option up for consideration appears to exist entirely in your head.

Methinks you ought to shut up about that.

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Dyscord

@Cyberxion101: I'm going by the \"As it will take several weeks for Microsoft to check my system\" quote, so I'm guessing that they're doing SOMETHING about it.

It's a safe assumption to make.

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bigd7387

First I did the PS3 thing 2 years ago and owned it for a whole 5 months before selling because of the major suckage. With that said I still can't feel sorry for anyone \"claiming\" they were banned for no reason. In this day and age with pirating going on with games, music and movies companies are acting to protect their money, which they should. The OP should not take it out on MS and go after the real problem the pirates. Those theifs are to blame, not the companies.

5 replies

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Tiaris

@bigd7387:
\"The OP should not take it out on MS and go after the real problem the pirates.\"

How exactly would you propose that the ordinary person \"go after\" these so-called \"pirates\"? And how would that in any way be legal?

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nstonep

@Tiaris: Join WHALE WARS! Got any rotten butter?

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AstroPig7

@bigd7387: So if my house is blown up by a faulty air strike that was intended for some enemy faction, should I blame the enemy faction for blowing up my house? For that matter, if my ISP cuts off my Internet access because another customer is illegally downloading movies on their own connection, should I track down said pirate and berate them? That sort of reasoning is doubleplusgood!

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lannister80

@bigd7387: Um, no. Nice hand-waving though.

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ktetch

@bigd7387:
1) There has never been any proof that 'piracy' has hurt a company. In fact every independent study has shown NO loss to said industries. In many cases they show a BENEFIT to them.
2) copyright infringement is not theft. Not now, not ever. THEFT is taking property, and depriving another of it. Copyright is not property, it's an assignable right (the hint is in the name, copyRIGHT), and what is termed 'piracy' is a violation of that right.
3) I did a little investigating. UK Music sales are at a 20 year high (up 50% on 10 years ago). This summer was the best ever for the US box office.
4) to date not a SINGLE study claiming 'piracy' costs billions has ever released the source data, they rarely even release the methodology.
5) Being dealt with as a criminal action is the LAST thing those companies want. Shoplift a CD in california, it's a $1000 max fine. Upload the same 10-track CD to the net, and that's $7500 minimum in damages to the company ($1.5Million max!). Usually they'll send you a letter asking to settle out of court for $600, else you'll have to pay thousands in legal fees to defend yourself (assuming you can afford to pay for a competent lawyer in the field or find one willing to go pro-bono/contingency). They also can spend/proceedure you into giving up in civil court. Finally, the whole level of proof is so much lower in civil court, they'd be fools to want to give it up.

Please, check your facts (and more importantly, check the facts made by anti-'piracy' groups, and the middleman industry. Well, you could check their facts, if they actually had any. (There's an old joke in this field, \"The reason the federation against copyright theft was formed, was so they could have at least one fact on their side\")

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dwasifar

I can't believe there are people here taking Microsoft's side, even a little bit. \"He probably should just give in and get a couple new Xboxes and pray it doesn't happen again.\" \"...the person replaced his fan with another one...he mysteriously left that part out...\" I understand the rationale is to ensure fair play, but Microsoft, being Microsoft, goes about it in a completely draconian and intrusive way, behaving as if your property belongs to them. I'd never buy hardware that comes with this kind of strings attached, no matter how cool the games are.

But then again, I won't run Windows, for the same reason.

4 replies

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TazManic

@dwasifar:
Guess you don't use a Mac, a Kindle, an iPod, or an iPhone either, huh?

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MikeGrenade

This entire comment thread is pointless because THE OP'S CONSOLE WAS NOT MODIFIED IN ANY WAY. The linked thread everyone keeps referring to IS NOT THE OP'S.

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Dyscord

@dwasifar: What some people are missing here is that you OWN the console. Sure. You don't OWN Xbox live. According to the thread, which apparently isn't the same guy here, the Xbox had third party hardware in it. In that case, MS, who doesn't take chances when it comes to things like this apparently, is totally in the right.

My advice to the op is that if he wants his service back then he'll need to send his console to microsoft and let them sort it out.

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dwasifar

@Dyscord: I didn't miss it, you missed it. Think about what you just said. \"The Xbox had third party hardware in it.\" How does Microsoft know that? By snooping around inside your hardware that it doesn't own.

I understand the desire to make sure people aren't using mods to give them an advantage in the game. I get that. But Microsoft's way of dealing with it betrays their controlling nature and lack of boundaries. Surely there are ways to catch cheaters without forcing everyone to give up the rights to private property.

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Framling

@dwasifar: I don't... What? Really? You absolutely have the right to private property.

But you waive your (apparently intensely important to you) right to not have basic, simple, harmless verifications performed on your private property before Microsoft allows it to interact with millions of other people's private property.

This seems kind of like getting angry that Live violates your privacy by sending data to your Xbox and expecting your Xbox to send data back, in some kind of nefarious 'communication' scheme.

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SirToast

@dwasifar: @dwasifar: You can't believe that people are taking Microsoft's side? Really, as a Xbox live subscriber, I support the banning of modded consoles. If someone with a modded console has the ability to ruin my gaming experience by cheating, then they should be banned. Now I do hope that Microsoft has it's act together, and that banning bar has a reasonable threshold certainty to doubt. I am not going to blame the op and say his consoles should have been banned. BUT I am going to remain skeptical of both him and Microsoft. I also won't be buying any used Xbox hard drives or Xbox's.

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Dyscord

@dwasifar: Well how else would they know this stuff if they weren't keeping tabs on your machine somehow? You own the console, but you use it to access THEIR system. If your system doesn't seem normal, they have a right to refuse access to their service.

How else would you suggest they do this? They want the OP to send the system in to double check, he doesn't seem to want to do that since \"It might take weeks\". What more should they do?

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coren

@Dyscord: But his point is, it's your console, so how is it ok for Microsoft to be messing around with it?

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Cyberxion101

@Dyscord: You're not wrong, insofar as Microsoft does have the right to deny you access to their service. However, it's still troubling that Microsoft goes poking around in your console. That's bush-league, Big Brother type shit.

Anyway, the OP said that it would take several weeks for Microsoft to check his console. He didn't say whether or not he sent it in, but his wording suggest that he's complying with whatever Microsoft is requiring of him.

You just keep making shit up to suggest that the OP is a dirty pirate and trying to hide it, but that seems to be all in your head. Get over it.

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lpranal

\"Microsoft is very strict with this because if they will let modded consoles to play online, all they'll do is just ruin the game and the experience. The modding community might also find a way to hack peoples account.\"

Bullshit. A modded console, for all intents and purposes, plays only 1:1 exact backups, nothing gets \"hacked\" that could affect the \"game and the experience\" any more than a stock console.

Not that i'm condoning modding consoles of any kind, however microsoft needs to stop the deceptive doublespeak and \"protecting gamers\" stance: it's about stopping people from playing copied / pirated games, period.

5 replies

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Dyscord

@lpranal: It actually could. believe it or not. Mods let the console run unauthorized software as well as playing backups.

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skwish

@lpranal:

you have obviously never played a game of halo online where a guy using a modded console... which by your definition will only play 1:1 copies of games... has a shotgun that shoots warthogs.

so long story short your Wrong, but the piracy is also a significant portion of why they did this

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dp05

@skwish: The picture in my head of a shotgun firing warthogs has made me laugh. Thank you for that.

A whole new level of deadliness for that weapon...

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coren

@skwish: ...that sounds amazingly fun.

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lpranal

@skwish: yes, actually I do play halo online, but I've never once run into something like that, mainly because it's incredibly easy microsoft to detect cheaters. Modding a console does NOT allow it to run unsigned code on live, although there are other ways for people to cheat. Nonetheless, Basically this ban wave is completely unrelated to cheaters; people caught cheating are banned when they're discovered; people playing backups get their consoles \"flagged\" throughout the year, and microsoft bans them in huge waves, apparently to send some kind of message.

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Dyscord

@lpranal: No, it could let you run unsigned code offline, perhaps letting you mod a character, save it, and then take it online.

Or use it to unlock every achievement in a game and shoot up a leaderboard, something that could ruin the game for some people who are anal about their gamerscore..

I really don't know what everyone would expect Microsoft to do. Yes, their methods are harsh, but what would you want them to do? Give people the benefit of the doubt? You can send your console in if you've been banned unfairly. If they fucked up then I imagine they'll probably own up to it.

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jamar0303

@Dyscord: Well, when modded consoles are capable of getting around the banhammer (Can't find a single unmodded X360 for sale where I live; can't find a single console that's been banned either) what does it do but hurt the legit users caught in the crossfire?

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GlassWalker

@MikeGrenade @skwish: The original Xbox was hack-able (e.g. Halo 1 & 2).

Those who figured out how to pirate/mod items on the Xbox back then had obtained the 'digital signature' the system used...and that signature could be re-implemented onto copied game discs, thus giving them the appearance of retail code (and crazy Warthog-firing Shotguns, etc).

That IS NOT the case with the 360, the digital signature hasn't been forged (yet), or Microsoft is using some other form of code authentication (not sure which). - This is why everything is now done via DVD Firmware tampering, it's a work-around by that community. And, in a way, shows that MS learned from their security issues last time around...

In any event, no, Microsoft is not doing this to stop cheaters; It's a false-flag comment on their part. They're doing it to stop the pirates that still like to play on Live... Nothing more.

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lpranal

@Dyscord: I don't see what the problem in that case is personally, but I'm glad microsoft bans the cheaters anyway. I'm not defending them whatsoever.

However when you tell people these consoles were banned \"to protect the gaming experience\" and all you're doing is banning a huge swath of people playing backups, there's a disjunct. They're protecting their profits, not the community - which is FINE, but just be honest about it. It's like they're so embarrassed that their security measures have been defeated again and again on what was supposedly an \"unhackable\" console, they don't want to admit they have to keep banning pirates.

In any case, what sucks most is people like the OP, who just wanted the thing fixed, didn't know better and got banned by M$, all because the damn console is so failure-prone people were actually preemptively fixing the huge design flaws.

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MikeGrenade

@lpranal: You definitely were not around for Halo 2. Whoo boy.

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lpranal

@MikeGrenade: Live on original xbox = clusterfuck of haxx0rz.

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Dyscord

@lpranal: I think MS sees this as a \"Better safe than sorry\" type thing. Look at it this way. If it was just because people were playing backups then why would they only ban you from Xbox live? That doesn't stop anyone from playing backups.

If they cared only about backups, they would probably do the firmware update thing that Sony does with the PSP.

Is it a little harsh? Yeah, it is. No question. But to many people, Live is superior to the other matchmaking services. Given that they sink money into it, they want it to stay that way.

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HazyCloud

The major detail left out in the OP was if he bought the console(s) new or not. If he bought them used or had someone work on them, it is his own damn fault.

Don't go around saying you spent X amount on Xbox stuff but then complaining that you've been banned for not buying a console new or having an unofficial repairman work on it. Sorry, I've got no pity for you.

Also to those saying MS is banning legit consoles, I highly doubt it. They aren't looking to ban the guy who pays 50 bucks a year for Live and 60 bucks per game.

7 replies

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coren

@HazyCloud: Whether or not he bought them new or not, he's gotten them repaired at some point, or he would still have scratchy disks, which means Microsoft gave them a pass. And even if he didn't, he's had these consoles for years, so if there was an *actual* problem it should have been caught before now.

And if MS banned you for getting fan or other similar non gameplay affecting upgrades, there'd be a lot more bans. But hey, let's blame the consumer when Microsoft hasn't exactly got the best of track records when it comes to Xbox customer service

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coren

@HazyCloud: Also he didn't say he had anyone unofficial work on it

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dantsea

@HazyCloud: Yeah, I've got a jaded eye when it comes to Spontaneous Customer Persecution stories for most companies.

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Shaftoe

@HazyCloud: What campus do you work at? I was out at Red West for a year as dash trash. never so glad as to put that behind me though the cafeteria was great.

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kayfox

@Shaftoe:

RedWest does have great nom noms.

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Fishy007

@HazyCloud: Bought used...maybe.

But 'had someone work on them'? Really? You're chalking that up to the fault of the user?

Microsoft is refusing to repair consoles that die with many many excuses that aren't legit. Either that or they flatly deny any warranty claims. My console died about 10 days out of the 1 year warranty and MS refused to budge. So I took it in to a repair shop and got it fixed there for 50% less than MS would have charged me. Nothing was modded. You're saying it's ok for MS to ban these consoles??

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HazyCloud

@Fishy007: Lol @ Shaftoe. I don't work there.

It only costs 30 bucks a year to keep your console under warranty. If you are an Xbox 360 user, you know the chance of it dying is pretty good. I don't see why any 360 user would not want to warranty their console.

If mine died and was out of warranty, I'd gladly pay MS to fix it as then it won't ever be banned. MS has been banning modded consoles for years. This isn't anything new.

Did the OP seriously expect his console to work on LIVE after he had someone add a fan to it? I don't know that the cost was to add a fan locally, but I bet it was more than 30 bucks.

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shepd

@HazyCloud:

You won't get banned for fixing the RROD yourself or any other similar problem. There is no way for MS to tell, other than that the RROD went away (which happens on occasion, anyways).

The only exception is if you start to replace parts rather than repair them. If your DVD drive goes bad, then you'd have to mod another DVD drive to make it work in your console. If your HDD goes bad, fixing it would entail using a hacked HDD. Etc, etc.

Anyone who knows what they're doing should be able to tell you if the repair would likely ban your console or not.

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Fishy007

@HazyCloud:
I didn't know about the $30 a year to keep my console under warranty.

While that seems like a solution that probably works, it's simply too much for me to deal with. $50 Live Fee + $30 Insurance for the console and there's STILL a possibility that MS will ban you. Add that to the initial cost of the unit and for 4 years of gaming you pay about $640-ish.

It might be a lure if you're heavily into Xbox only titles, but with the PS3 it's $300 for the console and let's say $100 for 1 repair over a 4 year period. The Xbox just isn't worth the hassle anymore. I feel like a persecuted criminal when all I did was get my console fixed.

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Dyscord

@Fishy007: I haven't heard of too many consoles that were banned unfairly. But if you really haven't done anything wrong and they want you to send it in, then I don't seem the harm.

Most of the stories I've heard of people getting banned are because they did something to their system, or they got it fixed somewhere else because it was cheaper. If it's under warranty then you don't have to worry about it.

If you have a 360, chances are you've done some research into it and extended the warranty. If you have then you don't really have a reason to get it fixed at a third party.

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shepd

Reasons why you can get banned (highlighted are possibilities relating to the poster):

- Actual Mods (firmware or chips)
- HDD Hacking, or purchasing HDD from unusual places which is likely hacked
- Too many games (especially weird imports) to the point M$ thinks you're pirating them
- Unofficial memory cards (although I don't think this is part of the current ban wave)
- Network trouble (often resulting in a positive score for the gamer), eg: lag switch type stuff
- Super low rep and complaints from others that you're running a modded console
- Hacked/stolen/keygenned/already-used points cards (could be purchased from online stores and seem to be totally legit--ALWAYS get the real card in the mail)

Now, I'm not saying any of these are good reasons, I'm just giving a list and which ones you could have, unfortunately, been screwed on. M$ isn't nice and probably won't unban your consoles. If you replace them you're probably OK, though. But your old savegames might not work on the new XBOXes. And, if you manage to make them work, they may ban your new ones. :(

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semanticantics

Apparently the link isn't his experience.

We need his. The details.

Add a fan = mod.
Flash the drive = mod.
Add a chip = mod.
Buy a second hand console that someone else tinkered with, whether you know it or not = mod.

Controllers have mods too. Auto-reload, automatic fire, etc.

There is not enough information, but because the 360 had hardware issues, and is made by Microsoft, Consumerist will post it.

5 replies

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parad0x360

@semanticantics: The only mod MS bans consoles for is modified dvd firmware. Nothing else.

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Zenatrul

@parad0x360:

They also ban for replacing the HDD with a bigger size.

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Moonshadow101

@Zenatrul: They would ban you if you replaced it with a smaller size, too. The size is hardly the reason why they don't want unauthorized drives hooked up.

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Cyberxion101

@parad0x360: Exactly. Adding a case-fan to your system is a far-cry from modifying your drive's firmware to run pirated games.

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shepd

@semanticantics:

Unless the fan is added in a REALLY stupid way, there's no possible way for MS to tell there's a fan in the box without it physically in their hands, or being told about it.

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nstonep

@shepd: Actually, I would think they could read the voltage draw on the console; either directly or derivatively.

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shepd

@nstonep:

Yes, they could. A fan the size you'd fit in an xbox would draw about 0.5 watts. If you hook it up directly to the power supply, it's such a low figure there's no reasonable way to detect that vs. just plain differences between parts. And, besides, there has to be some tolerance on that because you can charge your controllers through the XBOX, never mind power peripherals.

But if you hook it up to, say, something more critical like the DVD drive power, I suppose the current draw would be more noticeable. But, of course, that's stupid. :)

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jarhead906

I got an e-mail two days ago saying I was temporarily banned from my PSN ID for HATE SPEECH in the Playstation Home application.

This, however, is impossible considering I haven't used Home since it came out little more than a year ago and that my PS3(s) have been broken for quite some time.

Gonna have to call sometime tomorrow.

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Portalis

This is why it is so important that game companies like Infinity Ward do NOT restrict their PC customers the ability to have their own dedicated servers.

[news.bigdownload.com]

This was a running petition to Infinity Ward: [www.petitiononline.com]

Over 200,000 Signatures, and they still don't listen. It's all about control.

2 replies

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Dyscord

@Portalis: Personally, if I had a choice between a company running their own dedicated server and the customer running one, I'd pick the company server every time.

It reminds me of the last console generation. XBL had dedicated servers and you had to pay for the service. PS2 didn't and was free. Every online game had different levels of support and features, vs everything being unified on XBL

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Cyberxion101

@Portalis: Oh, that.

Yeah, I still don't get why that was a big deal. The petition doesn't really clarify anything, other than that gamers apparently have huge senses of self-entitlement.

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Projectneo

I have a feeling we are not getting the full story here. Microsoft doesn't just ban you because you had your console repaired at an unauthorized repair shop, when my DVD drive died i replaced it myself and was never banned. I didnt notice if he said where he got the xboxes, however if they both were banned and he did not get them from a store perhaps they are from a stolen batch sold on ebay.

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jvanbrecht

Microsoft is wrong, end of story. It is not illegal to mod your console, yes it can void your warranty, yes modding permits you to run downloaded games and perform other functions considered illegal and piracy.

Modding also allows you to run backups of games you own when you made those backups yourself. Lets face it, games are extremely expensive, 3 games are more expensive then the console itself.

What it comes down to, is MS attempting to control every aspect, similar to Apple with its hardware/software. That is their choice, and their TOS does state they have the right to refuse service, but don't make the mistake of thinking modding is illegal, its not.

Anything (whether it be cars, computers, guns, etc etc) can be modified for both legal purposes and illegal purposes, and last I checked, innocent until proven guilty is the way things are supposed to be.

And before you start spouting the DMCA law, that law has provisions that make it perfectly legal to modify devices and such to make and run legally purchased and backed up data.

3 replies

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steveliv

@jvanbrecht: your post is so full of fail, i don't know where to start. modding a console is a grey area, but Microsoft has a right to police their own service, so you can mod your console, just don't be surprised when it is banned and you aren't able to sign onto LIVE. The DMCA doesn't blindly allow you to legally make backups. Certain devices can get waivers in the DMCA, and last time i checked the Xbox 360 was not one of these devices.

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jvanbrecht

@steveliv: Eh.. thats what I said..

\"That is their choice, and their TOS does state they have the right to refuse service, but don't make the mistake of thinking modding is illegal, its not.\"

As for the DMCA, I went back through the rights, and while there are exceptions, for example,
# Library or educational use
# Law enforcement or governmental use
# Reverse engineering
# Analog tape copying (pertaining to some VHS/Beta videotapes)

The one I mentioned was not listed, as backups generally fall under fair use laws, and are not part of the DMCA itself, although bypassing mechanisms protecting those devices is a murky situation, and has not truly been tested in a court case.

There are no specific devices that would be listed under a waiver, they would be classes of devices or products. As for whether or not the 360 is listed under one of those classes is irrelevant, since you are modifying the software on the CD (by bypassing the DRM and encryption used on the CD itself). The modification to the 360 would be just telling it to ignore the lack on protection. That in itself is not illegal, nor does it even require a waiver.

But again, like you said, and like I said which you apparently did not understand or read, MS has the right to refuse service for any reason, short of violating laws on race, sex and other similar factors.

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Dyscord

@jvanbrecht: I think he was replying to the fact that you said \"Microsoft is wrong, end of story.\"

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Rask

@Dyscord: The 360 will still work after it's been modded. Games will still play just fine. The Console will also still work just fine. Microsoft's stance is just that. Mod the box to your heart's content!

Just don't expect to be able to connect it to Xbox Live.

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Dyscord

@Rask: That's exactly the point I've been making. It would be different if they broke the system in some way.

Given that you own the system but they own Xbox Live, they're perfectly justified in this. If they made a mistake, I imagine they'll own up to it.

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semanticantics

@jvanbrecht:

Who said anything about \"illegal\". The console still works, it just cannot connect to Xbox Live, a service with a giant ToS.

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Fishy007

This is why I've given up on my 360. Microsoft has too much control over hardware that I've paid for.

I haven't modded my system, but I'm not going to invest more $ in the console and my online experience only to be randomly banned in a wave of banning. From now on I'll be sticking with my PS3 for console games.

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pot_roast

I wonder if Microsoft is going to start accepting Xbox units in their stores for repair. That should make it easy. Go to a Microsoft store so they can verify that your console hasn't been modded, and they can undo the ban.

Probably won't happen for a long time since they only have two retail stores right now, but it sounds like an option that Microsoft could implement easy enough.

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Dyscord

I don't see belittling at the post. Unfortunately, he's absolutely right. They should have let Microsoft fix the console. According to that link, the guy ADMITS to taking the console to a third party and having them opening it up and add a third party fan into it.

It may seem stupid, but MS runs a tight ship when it comes to modding. It's so that their Live service would be (theoretically) more enjoyable.

4 replies

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coren

@Dyscord: That guy isn't this guy though. He just posted a link of how bad their support is. But even if it were him, the fan isn't what the source could be.

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Dyscord

@coren: @coren: My major point with taking it to a third party was that perhaps they did something they shouldn't have.

With all this talk about bannings and such, there's a reason why I went with a brand new 360 arcade back in Feb.

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rickhamilton620

@Dyscord: SIGH He didn't install a fan in his Xbox 360, that was a link to someone else's story

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Dyscord

@rickhamilton620: I know that. But it was posted to show microsoft's terrible service. I was just making a point as to why they would say \"You should have let us fix it\"

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rickhamilton620

@Dyscord: I realized that as I scrolled the page and was like \"crap!\" I guess I was just tired of people blaming him just because the link was awkwardly placed in the OP's email. Time for me to eat crow I guess! :p

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Cyberxion101

@Dyscord: He's not right though.

While adding a case-fan voided his warranty--providing it was still in warranty when he had it done--it didn't get him banned from Live and never would. Microsoft wouldn't have any way of knowing he did it had he not told them, and besides, that's not the sort of modification that they're banning folks for anyway.

Frankly, you're just as far off base as the guy who responded to the OP in the link was. If Microsoft's true purpose for banning firmware-modified consoles from Live is to maintain parity in every user's Live experience across the board, then whether or not a case-fan was added to his console has no bearing on that one way or the other. So that being the case, it can hardly be used to justify having banned his console, even if Microsoft had a way to tell that it had been done in the first place.

Nah, that he added a case-fan to his console was a coincidence, and he probably only mentioned it for the same reason so many misguided people keep going on about it, which is that it is a modification. However, it's not the sort of modification that would result in anything worse than a voided warranty. I'm rather appalled that Microsoft is trying to spin it to justify having banned the guy from Live, when they wouldn't have known that it had happened in the first place had he not told them about it.

That he added a case-fan might come into play when he attempts to send it in to repair the inevitable RRoD, but even then it would only be a factor once Microsoft takes possession of it, and goes on to determine that the warranty has been voided. And even then it wouldn't even stop them from repairing it. They'd just charge him to do it. That's assuming that he won't just take it back to the guy who original repaired it for him. So that the case-fan was added is wholly irrelevant to the situation at hand. He didn't get banned for it, and I wish people would stop saying that it has anything at all to do with the guy's problem. The guy in the link, that is.

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Dyscord

@Cyberxion101: If not the fan, they still opened it up. Apparently SOMETHING got modded if it got banned. He was right to say that they \"should have let microsoft repair it\". That is if that person was telling the truth. For all MS knows he could have modded his box, got banned, and is now lying about it. If so he did a pretty bad job.

As for the OP of THIS story, if MS wants him to send his system in to double check or something then he should do it. Yeah, it sucks, but what would you have them do?

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Cyberxion101

@Dyscord: Dude, that's assuming that Microsoft didn't fuck up. And given that their own firmware updates have bricked consoles in the past, I'm not willing to dismiss the possibility that their verification process might be faulty.

Now you, you seem to be going out of your way to dismiss that possibility, and I'm not quite sure why. It's not exactly unprecedented for Microsoft to fuck up. I mean shit, you have to have at least heard of the whole RRoD problem, right?

And you're assuming that Microsoft ever asked him to send his system in in the first place. There's nothing to suggest that this possibility was ever raised as an option for the OP, and reading the support forums doesn't suggest that anyone else was given that option either. So you're judging him for not having done something that no accounts suggest he was ever given the option of doing, and I have to wonder why.

In fact, something about your posts just doesn't add up to me. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I might question whether or not you work for Microsoft. If I were a conspiracy theorist, that is.

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Dyscord

@Cyberxion101: I'm not discounting the possibility that they fucked up.

And I read the line about \"taking several weeks for Microsoft to check my system\" and assumed that they wanted him to send it in. But you know, perhaps that's an option. I'm not saying Microsoft is perfect, just that I see why they run a tight ship when it comes to modding.

But in my experience, most of the time a console is banned because of modding of some sort. And in cases like this, what is Microsoft supposed to do? I imagine they get tons of people saying that they didn't mod their systems only for them to be lying.

And what, just because I'm defending them means I must work for them? I legitimately see their point here. If they're legitimately wrong then the OP should explore some advanced options or an EECB or whatever, instead of posting a link to something unrelated and saying that Microsoft has shitty customer service.

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VagrantRadio

Exactly why I'm going to cancel my live account, sell my games and console. Another addition to the list of reasons why Xbox Live and Microsoft suck as a company.

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Dyscord

And if they aren't the same guy then why on EARTH is that link there? If it's not relevant to the OPs experience then it's not needed. Especially since it doesn't show poor customer service since the person in the link DID have his system modded in some way (A different fan)

2 replies

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coren

@Dyscord: Yes but in a way Microsoft doesn't give two shits about for Live service

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Dyscord

@coren: Why's that? Given that people spend money for the service and the points, they should give a damn about it.

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b4k4

May wanna get in touch with Steve Toulouse, master of the Banhammer, using his twitter \"stepto\". I sent a tweet pointing to this article, we'll see if that helps....

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semanticantics

Xbox-scene.com, a site where people discuss such issues, has a story / rumor that MS is pushing for 1 million bans.

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What The Geek

There are too many missing variables from this story for me to side with the OP, or MS. Did they buy the consoles new? Or did they come from Craigslist or ebay? If the console was modded before the OP owned it, it's still modded, and capable of playing pirated games - hence the ban, even if the OP didn't know about the mod.

Also, it's hard to really take sides on something like this - if he did mod the consoles, do you really think he's gonna own up to that publicly? This could be a ploy by a pirate to use the power of the consumerist to circumvent a legit ban. The fact of the matter is, there are software markers to look for to determine whether the firmware on a DVD drive has been tampered with or not. If MS is finding those markers, then the console is most likely modded, even if the customer was unaware of the mod (in the case of a used 360). Accidents happen, and that's why MS is willing to reinvestigate a ban - but if the reinvestigation turns up the same results, the ban will stand, regardless of the story from the customer.

4 replies

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coren

@What The Geek: He's had \"faulty first gen\" which sounds like replacement, and a RROD, which I'm pretty sure always gets you a replacement, albeit both cases would get him a refurb. Regardless, it wouldn't be anything he did that caused the bricking at this point, assuming everything he said is on the up and up.

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Dyscord

@What The Geek: I got the impression that he didn't want to send it in for Microsoft to confirm if it's modded or not. If they really made a mistake then they'll own up to it and unban it. Perhaps even throw in a perk for the trouble.

At this point, considering that Microsoft is at least willing to try to fix the problem, I'm going to side with them here.

The fact that the OP posted a link to something that a) is not related and b) is a case where MS is in the right, doesn't help either.

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coren

@Dyscord: Yes, but that involves him not having a console for a month or more while they take their time, with no guaranteed results to be had Sure they say \"oh if it's our mistake we'll own up to it\" but he has no way to hold them to it

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Cyberxion101

@Dyscord: I don't see why the OP should be required to send two 360 consoles to Microsoft just to prove that he didn't modify them. However, that's irrelevant, being that you're clearly reading what you want to into the OP's post.

There is nothing in it to suggest that he's resistant to sending his consoles in to Microsoft. Hell, there's nothing to suggest that this was even raised as an option for the OP to consider in the first place. Furthermore, nothing that I read on the Microsoft's 360 support forum gives me the impression that this was an option given to anyone at all. So I'm not sure how you get the impression that the OP was resistant to sending his consoles in to Microsoft. Seems like one hell of a leap to make.

As far as the story that the OP linked to goes, Microsoft wasn't in the right, and I'll tell you why. See, if you believe that Microsoft was right, that implies that you also buy the excuse they gave the guy. That excuse being that Microsoft bans modded consoles in order to maintain parity for all Live users across the board. Now if you believe that they ban consoles for that reason, then it renders the rep's excuse for why the OP's console was banned invalid, simply because there's no way that a case-fan will have any effect whatsoever on user's Live experience. His very explanation puts him in the wrong, for that simple reason.

Microsoft doesn't have any way of knowing if you've added a case fan to your system in the first place, so that couldn't possibly be why he was banned, even if the rep had covered it in his excuse. No, the rep took a disparate element that the guy was under no obligation to share, and spun it to justify Microsoft's mistake, just like you're doing here. At worst, the case-fan would have voided his warranty, but it wouldn't have got him banned from Live, even if Microsoft knew that it was in there.

As for why it's relevant, just like the OP, the guy in the story was stonewalled and treated like a criminal for no good reason. It establishes that Microsoft's position is that we're all a bunch of thieves and liars, and that it's all our fault that our consoles have been banned.

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Dyscord

@Cyberxion101: I'll ask you this then. What would you have them do? They do something that says that a console is modded or something and then it's banned. Most of the time it ends up being that the console was used and sold to someone else. In which case, they're screwed.

They get tons of people saying they didn't mod their consoles and they're usually lying. When they said \"You should have had it repaired by Microsoft\", I agree with it. With all the talk about banning and such, I wouldn't chance taking it to a third party where something could potentially go wrong. Most 360 owners would do that.

Is it a little over the top? Yeah. It is. I'll agree that much. But they had troubles with modding with the original Xbox and they don't want to repeat that.

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Cyberxion101

@Cyberxion101: Correction: The OP very well may have sent his consoles in to Microsoft after all, or at least one of them. His wording suggest that he's going to have to wait several weeks for Microsoft to fix their error, and while he doesn't say that he sent them in, it's a distinct possibility.

Either way, you're still way off base. You're trying to portray the guy as a pirate who knows that he's in the wrong, when by the looks of it, he's complied with Microsoft's requests.

So I guess you can put that lame-duck nonsense to rest.

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Dyscord

@Cyberxion101: That is what I'm going by. If he's going to have to wait for them to fix their error then he'll have to wait. If MS have any sense at all, they'll realize he's right and fix their mistake.

I'm not saying the guy is a pirate. I'm saying that I understand why Microsoft does this and that I don't see the point in linking to an irrelevant story. If he did send it away or did something so Microsoft can double check their mistake, then we'll see.

But I haven't heard of very many people getting banned without a good reason. Suspended for stupid reasons, yes, but not banned.

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heltoupee

This is exactly why I haven't pulled the trigger on any one of a number of great Xbox360 deals I've seen all over teh intarwebs lately.

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smiling1809

Sounds like a Microsoft scame to get people to buy new consoles so they can access their live accounts again.

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shades_of_blue

The dude said he had the infamous RROD. I would speculate that MS advance RMA'd his system with another, and that one is hacked. He should check the serial number on his original receipt against his system.

If they're different be sure to point that out. If they still won't budge, consider contacting the local media or writing Gates/Ballmer. I'm sure whoever checks their mail would be very interested in learning just how flawed their Live devision support really is.

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trujunglist

It is completely possible that the RROD he sent in was replaced with a modded refurb. This does happen. There is a thread on slickdeals about this.

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dutchb0y

If his xbox is unmodded can he offer to send it in to have it checked out and cleared? I think they did this with the original XBOX when people were unfairly banned.

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Stupid_Losers

All of the reasons that people have posted here for why you can get banned seem like more than enough to stay away from MS and the Xbox 360. I have a Wii, my kid loves it but I'm pretty much sick of the silly kid friendly games and was thinking about getting a 360. Now that doesn't seem like such a great idea.

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coopjust

I sincerely doubt the fan replacement was detectable. If he sent it in for service, maybe.

Given that the OP has privacy settings enabled, and he last played Modern Warfare 2, my guess is he played the game before street date. Now, if he's telling the truth, a retailer may have broken street date- but this is not a problem if you have your receipt.

3 replies

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Cyberxion101

@coopjust: Microsoft didn't ban anyone for playing MW2 before the street-date. They banned folks who have modified their DVD drives firmware to allow them to play backups, or pirated copies of 360 games.

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coopjust

@Cyberxion101:
They banned people for playing Halo 3 early.
[kotaku.com]

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coopjust

@coopjust:
Apparently, reading closer, it's a different guy on the linked Xbox post.

Jeff needs to provide more detail.

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jlmatthe

Hey, there's a typo in the photo credits.. That's MY photo!! W00T!

But um, it's jlm699.

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Wang_Chung_Tonight

Microsoft Rule #1-We will be the only people ripping anyone off.

Microsoft Rule #2-There are no other rules.

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Fifth Echo

E-mail stepto@xbox.com and voice your complaint. Stephen Toulouse is the manager over Enforcement for XBL. Explain your situation with him and, given some civil discourse, you will likely get unbanned.

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narq

DO NOT BUY ANOTHER CONSOLE!

Never take no or we can't help you as an answer from them.

First thing is you have this post. Second, don't give up. Press on Xbox and request an escalation. If you demand that Xbox has treated you unfairly and that you want to speak with someone of authority they will do it. Then when you talk to that person, demand another escalation. You need to get to tier 3 to get anywhere with these people.

If those things don't work EECB everyone you can find at Microsoft and Xbox. This worked for me and I got around the \"set in stone\" rules because they screwed up in the first place. They know you'll give up and they don't care. Their system is broken and trust me they don't even know how it works. XBL has become a hulk so to speak. It just demolishes everything and no one knows how to truly stop it.

They make these stupid rules and systems. They can fix them.

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Zagroseckt

Time to get the small clames cort thing going.

1 replies

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coren

@Zagroseckt: I don't think in this case that's appropriate, but it depend son the terms of Live and how he paid for it. For example, if it says \"we have the right to ban you and you lose any paid time\" he's SOL. If not, he might have a case to get that back, but it won't be more than 30 bucks, and probably far less.

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M3wThr33

What's worse is now if you play on a banned console, it writes to your game save and you can't transfer it elsewhere, so you're stuck with that profile or game on it if you use it after it's been banned.

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coren

I wouldn't want to give up on it given that I used Live and still had time left - and if I did get a positive resolution I'd ask I be credited for the time Microsoft had mistakenly banned me.

And all this \"unauthorized fan\" and \"you bought it used\" misses the point. First, that's not his story on the forum, according to this article. It was included in his letter as part of what he was telling the Consumerist, it wasn't something they added. Even if it were his story, Microsoft doesn't give a crap about fan mods. Even if it was his console and Microsoft did care about the fan - how did his fiance get banned for that too? Ditto if he bought them used (and still got the same console back despite having a \"faulty first gen\" and a RROD on one) - what are the odds you bought two modded consoles used, especially two modded first gens, and Microsoft didn't catch them in all that time?

1 replies

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Cyberxion101

@coren: Exactly coren. Well said.

Microsoft has been banning firmware-modded consoles from Live for some time. I have a friend overseas whose modified 360 was banned not two months ago. The fool bought another and modded it too, and it was also banned in the most recent banning wave. I can't imagine why this guy wouldn't have been banned long before now if his consoles were modified.

Nah, this was just a screw up on Microsoft's part. Now the proper thing to do would be to admit they screwed up and agree to fix the issue, but they seem to enjoy tearing people apart and treating them like theives.

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coopjust

Info from the XBL forums, YMMV:

Our investigations are very thorough. However if you PM Tatsu24 with your consoleID and serial number we will re-verify our investigation. Your console ID is located in System Settings>Console Settings>System Info
Before replying, please be sure that you:
1. Purchased your console brand new and unopened from a reputable retailer
2. No individual has ever handled the Xbox outside your direct physical supervision.
3. You have thoroughly reviewed the information and FAQ located at [www.xbox.com]
Please be aware that if our re-verification is correct, this could result in a permanent suspension of the Xbox LIVE accounts on this console, along with all associated licenses and gamerscore.

2 replies

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coopjust

@coopjust:
Also, people are alleging that only modified consoles got banned. If you did NOT modify your console but DID get a game early legally (retailer broke street date), I would include that info and a scan of the reciept.

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semanticantics

@coopjust:

And you wouldn't be banned because it's a legit copy and doesn't send MS the information that a flashed drive does.

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coopjust

@semanticantics:
That's what they're claiming, but the modding community is also claiming the firmware itself is not detectable - bad game rips are.

In any case, it's information that could not hurt his appeal.

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ubermex

The really ironic thing is that if he had actually modded his system he might be able to get around this.

1 replies

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the_wiggle

@ubermex: most competent modders do.

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golddog

Sounds like the OP has 999,999 other partners in crime.

[news.cnet.com]

Really Microsoft? There's 1,000,000 pirated copies of Modern Warfare 2 out there? Actually not just MW2 - they banned anyone they thought had modded their console to circumvent DRM. I'd love to know how they make that determination. Is Dwight Schrute in charge of the investigation?

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Nytmare

Every time I see the phrase \"no reason\" it translates to \"there was a reason but I don't want to admit what it was.\"

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humphrmi

But this is what you get back for tampering the console.

In the immortal words of Truman Capote, \"Learn to say your g0@-d@&^ prepositions!\"

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newfenoix

This is why I will NEVER play games online.

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RevancheRM

Seriously...not trying to troll here, but I can't but help see the similarities to the arguments against the death penalty. M$ bans a large number of their clients, and in the process have cut off some innocent members. The members can't do anything within their power to bring themselves back into good graces. And the system is pre-disposed to see them as guilty. The loss of revenue from piracy is greater than that lost from cutting off solid members...

At least, however, there is always a chance these customers can be brought back into the fold. There the similarity falls apart.

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notlupus

[twitter.com]

believe it or not he actually has helped two roommates who where banned from LIVE by mistake.

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Koinu

I just wanted to say that the guy who responded is not an official Microsoft employee, he's just a gold member.

[www.xbox.com]

He's a Comp Level 2, and has no badges.

1 replies

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aka Bitter

@Koinu: I was going to mention this as well. Xbox customer support employees are level \"S\" ranked on the Xbox forums.

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Kaosian

\"Our investigations are very thorough. However if you PM me with your consoleID and serial number we will reverify our investigation. Your console ID is located in System Settings>Console Settings>System Info

Before replying, please be sure that you:

1. You purchased your console brand new and unopened from a reputable retailer
2. No individual has ever handled the Xbox outside your direct physical supervision.
3. You have thoroughly reviewed the information and FAQ located at [www.xbox.com]

Please be aware that if our reverification is correct, this could result in a permanent suspension of the Xbox LIVE accounts on this console, along with all associated licenses and gamerscore. \"

Taken from the xbox boards. Like anyone could ever verify #2 above, unless oyu keep your console under lock and key when you are not playing it and never go anywhere without first locking up said console, even to go tot he bathroom. I'm glad I don't have an Xbox nor a sony DRM Machine .....

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nstonep

Honestly I got sick of fixing my old xbox and it's in pieces on my hp printer (making it a pile of poorly made electronics); I just bought a refurbed hdmi one (of course I got the extended warranty...ugh) because I just had to play borderlands.

Still...from what I know it's not actual repairs or \"adjustments\" (adding the revised heat sinks) that actually will get you kicked off of xbox live. Then again, the only thing you're missing is 12 year olds calling you gay in gears of war 2.

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parrotuya

AHHH! Yet another reason not to deal with Microsoft. The brainwashed MS faithful never learn. Here is a clue: dump the xbox and buy a Playstation or Nintendo! Bonus points: dump your PC and get a Mac!

DOWn, baby, DOWn!

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SkuldChan

Regardless if he has a modded console the way he was treated by customer service was inexcusable.

Microsoft is very arrogant if they think their ban procedure is 100% accurate. People have mentioned refurbished hardware, secondhand hardware etc - that could be tainted. What a mess.

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baristabrawl

This is why I don't want one. There should be a service that can figure out a way to get them unbanned. Whatever cryptic signature mechanism they use. Clearly I don't know how it works.

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sinfuly Delicious

I had just replaced my barely out of warranty first gen box with a used one from gamestop and aftera few mos (last week) I am not banned on that console.

I ended up getting the Limited Ed MW2 console set the other day from a store BRAND NEW this time and have that one. But in response to the crap MS is pulling onthis I have no quams in learning how to mod my now banned box and using it to play copies of my games. I fig now i have two that i can lan with. One for my games and the other for copies so can play on two consoles and two screens.

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soccerkrzy

fiancé = boy, fiancée = girl...

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Zombie_killer

My concern (excuse me if this has already been posted)is that my Xbox 360, which was a replacement sent to me by their repair center (fter my RRoD (I've had 3 RRoD BTW.... my first right out of the box when it was 1st introduced) was modded by someone else or maybe the repair center had been doing something that to Microsoft registers the box as modded. That certainly would explain why there were so many banned. Of course, I am pretty sure they were selling modded Xbox's on Ebay so I'm sure there are a ton out there.

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uclajd

I am a pretty bog critic of Microsoft, but I'm sure that just like in prison where everyone says he is innocent, there are a lot of guilty parties here claiming no wrongdoing.

While I do think a person should legally be able to mod any hardware he buys, I don't think Microsoft has any obligation to let them play on the Live network.

\"Innocent\" people obviously should have some recourse.

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sjnims

seems like an interesting way to boost console sales this holiday season...

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Chaotic Katt

January 26, 2010 9:25 PM

This same thing happened to me. I was just starting to play MW2 on XBL when it started freezing. I restarted the game several times and eventually I got the RRoD. I called MS \"support\" to request a repair and they told me it was ineligible to be repaired because my console had been banned and that there was nothing I could do. This was my second console (my 1st got the RRoD as well). It was a replacement refurbished unit that I received directly from MS service center. I am the only user on the console and it's never been anywhere else aside from my apartment. I haven't the slightest idea as to how one would go about modding anything YET my console is banned. I know for sure that Microsoft's detection methods are extremely flawed, and it's outrageous that there is no way that a modification can be verified for people willing to have their consoles physically checked. My only route was to report them to the Better Business Bureau......we\"ll see what happens with that.

September 1, 2010 9:42 PM

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XyberDAWG

I feel Microsoft was completely in the right with this update, and honestly feel it is a little late. Part of the TOS of xbox live is that you do not tamper with the console in anyway. Yeah I know nobody reads that, they just hit \"Agree\" and that;s why legally they have the right, you agreed to wave your rights.

XBOX Live is maintained by MS, if they want to keep modified systems off their service so be it. One reason many people are overlooking is a modified system has the potential to modify gamesaves, account info, etc. Thus a Modded system could technically be a cheater.

In addition a modded system could play Illegal copies of games both XBLA and Retail versions. Do you think they will allow that to happen. Sure they can make it an offline only XBOX, does that \"Brick\" the system? No it doesn't, it only removes the online capabilities that by using a Modded Console violates in the first place. Be happy its not a Wii, they have been Bricked for much less violations.

And in conclusion BE VERY happy you got the time you did in with the system, your lucky they didn't do this much sooner. For those who say if it is after the warranty you have the right to take it apart and mod it, sure you do. But the second you break the seal and crack it open, you don't just void a warranty, you take responsibility for any failures that might occur afterward.

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Mema

November 8, 2010 4:06 PM

My special needs grandson found great joy in being on line with his XBox 360 where he was active so much so that for two years he only wanted point cards, games and anything to support his interest. Gifts for his birthdays and holidays, money he earned for mowed lawns and chores all invested in his game.
One fateful Saturday night he attempted to log on and found that his \"file was corrupt\". He was devastated but I encourged him to call the help line believing the problem could be remedied. After ten days of a microsoft and XBox crash course, filing forms and endless two hour wait phone calls I was finally informed my grandson's account wa now an \"F2\" and nobody could give any information to me or anyone else about that account. Special questions had been asked two years earlier to an autistic kid who just wanted to play so he made up answers he never wrote down. Explaning his problem and my involvement made no difference. Now he is not able to retrive his prized \"profile\" and I cannot bear the thought of one more marathon phone call with no results. Can anyone help me fight my grandsons exile status with Microsoft?