While I do think a person should legally be able to mod any hardware he buys, I don't think Microsoft has any obligation to let them play on the Live network.

"Innocent" people obviously should have some recourse.

@akuma_x: In addition to banning the console, the user's gamertag is also tagged. Their saves and stuff under that gamertag can still be used offline on teh banned console, but if they try and load it one that isn't, the gamertag gets corrupted and the saves become unusable.

A friend of mine was banned and explained this to me. I hope I got the info right.

@Applekid: Update: The people I knew with modded consoles felt the wrath of the banhammer over the last couple days, so there is some justice in the world.

I ended up getting the Limited Ed MW2 console set the other day from a store BRAND NEW this time and have that one. But in response to the crap MS is pulling onthis I have no quams in learning how to mod my now banned box and using it to play copies of my games. I fig now i have two that i can lan with. One for my games and the other for copies so can play on two consoles and two screens.

@Koinu: I was going to mention this as well. Xbox customer support employees are level "S" ranked on the Xbox forums.

and just FYI, I have never modded my system, but I was caught in the ban as well because "it appears we have too many systems connected." I live in a house with 4 other people. We're all gamers. Every bedroom has a 360, as well as the living room and "computer" room. Yes.. we have 7 360's in my house. And apparently that is suspicious to MS.

This is why I don't want one. There should be a service that can figure out a way to get them unbanned. Whatever cryptic signature mechanism they use. Clearly I don't know how it works.

Microsoft is very arrogant if they think their ban procedure is 100% accurate. People have mentioned refurbished hardware, secondhand hardware etc - that could be tainted. What a mess.

In my eyes this whole think reaks of bad security on MS's part. Saves should be encrypted, hard drives should have been encrypted.

Everyone knows you can use 3rd party hardware on a PS3? I learned how to install a 3rd party HDD on Sony's PS3 blog!

DOWn, baby, DOWn!

Those who figured out how to pirate/mod items on the Xbox back then had obtained the 'digital signature' the system used...and that signature could be re-implemented onto copied game discs, thus giving them the appearance of retail code (and crazy Warthog-firing Shotguns, etc).

That IS NOT the case with the 360, the digital signature hasn't been forged (yet), or Microsoft is using some other form of code authentication (not sure which). - This is why everything is now done via DVD Firmware tampering, it's a work-around by that community. And, in a way, shows that MS learned from their security issues last time around...

In any event, no, Microsoft is not doing this to stop cheaters; It's a false-flag comment on their part. They're doing it to stop the pirates that still like to play on Live... Nothing more.

Yes, they could. A fan the size you'd fit in an xbox would draw about 0.5 watts. If you hook it up directly to the power supply, it's such a low figure there's no reasonable way to detect that vs. just plain differences between parts. And, besides, there has to be some tolerance on that because you can charge your controllers through the XBOX, never mind power peripherals.

But if you hook it up to, say, something more critical like the DVD drive power, I suppose the current draw would be more noticeable. But, of course, that's stupid. :)

Still...from what I know it's not actual repairs or "adjustments" (adding the revised heat sinks) that actually will get you kicked off of xbox live. Then again, the only thing you're missing is 12 year olds calling you gay in gears of war 2.

@Awjvail: While he is upset about the bannings, I think the biggest issue is with the treatment he has been receiving by customer service. The employees are acting like MS is infalible and everyone is guilty period, no chance for innocense. While I'm sure 99% of the bannings were spot on, mistakes can and, I'm sure, were made. They should treat everyone with the same respect, no matter what they did to their personal property that they bought, not rented.

Frankly Sony and Microsoft can both decide who they want to let play and who they want to ban, let the market decide if the practice is acceptable.

Before replying, please be sure that you:

1. You purchased your console brand new and unopened from a reputable retailer
2. No individual has ever handled the Xbox outside your direct physical supervision.
3. You have thoroughly reviewed the information and FAQ located at [www.xbox.com]

Please be aware that if our reverification is correct, this could result in a permanent suspension of the Xbox LIVE accounts on this console, along with all associated licenses and gamerscore. "

Taken from the xbox boards. Like anyone could ever verify #2 above, unless oyu keep your console under lock and key when you are not playing it and never go anywhere without first locking up said console, even to go tot he bathroom. I'm glad I don't have an Xbox nor a sony DRM Machine .....

[www.xbox.com]

He's a Comp Level 2, and has no badges.

believe it or not he actually has helped two roommates who where banned from LIVE by mistake.

@Dyscord: SIGH He didn't install a fan in his Xbox 360, that was a link to someone else's story

True, but they should at least reimburse you for the lost Gold time for something of no fault of your own.

@AirIntake:

Yes there is. If the new fan uses even slightly different voltage, the motherboard is completely willing and able to report that. "Upgrading" the fan CAN get the banhammer, it IS a mod.

But you area right, video games are rather inexpensive for a hobby, but like it was said before, if you add up the cost from your first console to now it could be a staggering amount of money. I practice with my pyro hobby and also have multiple consoles(I'm from the intellivision and atari 2600 era), and still tend to play those old bricks for the nostalgic felling.

Want to do some math? I have been collecting the consoles since atari 2600 onward, so guess how much money has been dumped on that little hobby?

This was in response to complaints that heavy duty cheaters that were banned pretty much kept spares around for this very reason and were up and running within 30 seconds of a ban. Basically, you do have to come up with an unused box never tied to the original box now.

The bannings were over 600,000 accounts by all reports. And people are going bonkers - a certain corner of the internet got a visit from an executive in their chat area asking that the death threats stop:

[paste2.org]

when you use the xbox 360, microsoft scans the data on it and compares it with what their server has and then it bans you if it is different,

the problem is the data can be different is a packet is dropped or corrupt (a ISP throttling can cause packets to be dropped which can be mistaken for modding because for example, if a game server does acd key check, or windows update does a cd key check and the packets keep getting dropped or corrupted, it will just allow you to get the update or connect to the game server because it doesn't want to wrongly lock you out but because of this, these connection problems can be simulated and microsoft will then see it as modded console activity and ban the console (they only check once and ban)

many modding groups get around it by soldering a serial connection directly to the motherboard and re-flashing it with a different id and redesign their mods until they no longer result in a console ban, then when all of the work is done, the update is released to the world, so the modders have no problem while the legit users suffer through false positives and unhelpful tech support

I don't know exactly how it works, but there are guides online and sites that supply you with the save games necessary to do it, which is why MS blocks saves. Its also why they're banning third-party storage devices with the November firmware update.

As for the guy above, he either got modded hardware from somewhere (I've heard stories of people swapping the guts from 360's and returning them to stores) or his repaired console triggered a false positive. I had a false positive on a repaired console back when they'd RROD modded units. Thankfully back then MS had some sense, clearly saw my unit was a refurb, and sent me a new one.

As for this guy, buying two Arcades or dropping an EECB seem like his only options. I just hope he saved his repair information from the faulty unit, as that will help his case if its a false positive or someone in the repair center didn't do their job and sent him modded hardware.

At least, however, there is always a chance these customers can be brought back into the fold. There the similarity falls apart.

Essentially, when you've got a 1 in a million chance of something happening to someone and you've got 20 million users, it's nearly certain that it will happen to someone. Assuming Jeff is telling the truth then it's probably been caused by an error of this nature or possibly a bug in the code used for checking.

In any case, it's information that could not hurt his appeal.

@Applekid: Agreed.

And you wouldn't be banned because it's a legit copy and doesn't send MS the information that a flashed drive does.

@parad0x360:

They also ban for replacing the HDD with a bigger size.

@skwish: The picture in my head of a shotgun firing warthogs has made me laugh. Thank you for that.

A whole new level of deadliness for that weapon...

It's a safe assumption to make.

Then again, there are a few games that you can't transfer saves from in the first place, so this might be moot.

I'm not saying the guy is a pirate. I'm saying that I understand why Microsoft does this and that I don't see the point in linking to an irrelevant story. If he did send it away or did something so Microsoft can double check their mistake, then we'll see.

But I haven't heard of very many people getting banned without a good reason. Suspended for stupid reasons, yes, but not banned.

They get tons of people saying they didn't mod their consoles and they're usually lying. When they said "You should have had it repaired by Microsoft", I agree with it. With all the talk about banning and such, I wouldn't chance taking it to a third party where something could potentially go wrong. Most 360 owners would do that.

Is it a little over the top? Yeah. It is. I'll agree that much. But they had troubles with modding with the original Xbox and they don't want to repeat that.

@Shaftoe:

RedWest does have great nom noms.

But this is what you get back for tampering the console.

In the immortal words of Truman Capote, "Learn to say your g0@-d@&^ prepositions!"

With all this talk about bannings and such, there's a reason why I went with a brand new 360 arcade back in Feb.

@dwasifar: I don't... What? Really? You absolutely have the right to private property.

But you waive your (apparently intensely important to you) right to not have basic, simple, harmless verifications performed on your private property before Microsoft allows it to interact with millions of other people's private property.

This seems kind of like getting angry that Live violates your privacy by sending data to your Xbox and expecting your Xbox to send data back, in some kind of nefarious 'communication' scheme.

[news.cnet.com]

Really Microsoft? There's 1,000,000 pirated copies of Modern Warfare 2 out there? Actually not just MW2 - they banned anyone they thought had modded their console to circumvent DRM. I'd love to know how they make that determination. Is Dwight Schrute in charge of the investigation?

And I read the line about "taking several weeks for Microsoft to check my system" and assumed that they wanted him to send it in. But you know, perhaps that's an option. I'm not saying Microsoft is perfect, just that I see why they run a tight ship when it comes to modding.

But in my experience, most of the time a console is banned because of modding of some sort. And in cases like this, what is Microsoft supposed to do? I imagine they get tons of people saying that they didn't mod their systems only for them to be lying.

And what, just because I'm defending them means I must work for them? I legitimately see their point here. If they're legitimately wrong then the OP should explore some advanced options or an EECB or whatever, instead of posting a link to something unrelated and saying that Microsoft has shitty customer service.

@JGKojak: Why, if they own the network, is Microsoft not allowed to do with it whatever the hell they want?

It reminds me of the last console generation. XBL had dedicated servers and you had to pay for the service. PS2 didn't and was free. Every online game had different levels of support and features, vs everything being unified on XBL

Most of the stories I've heard of people getting banned are because they did something to their system, or they got it fixed somewhere else because it was cheaper. If it's under warranty then you don't have to worry about it.

If you have a 360, chances are you've done some research into it and extended the warranty. If you have then you don't really have a reason to get it fixed at a third party.

Our investigations are very thorough. However if you PM Tatsu24 with your consoleID and serial number we will re-verify our investigation. Your console ID is located in System Settings>Console Settings>System Info

Before replying, please be sure that you:

1. Purchased your console brand new and unopened from a reputable retailer

2. No individual has ever handled the Xbox outside your direct physical supervision.

3. You have thoroughly reviewed the information and FAQ located at [www.xbox.com]

Please be aware that if our re-verification is correct, this could result in a permanent suspension of the Xbox LIVE accounts on this console, along with all associated licenses and gamerscore.

If they cared only about backups, they would probably do the firmware update thing that Sony does with the PSP.

Is it a little harsh? Yeah, it is. No question. But to many people, Live is superior to the other matchmaking services. Given that they sink money into it, they want it to stay that way.

@coren: Exactly coren. Well said.

Microsoft has been banning firmware-modded consoles from Live for some time. I have a friend overseas whose modified 360 was banned not two months ago. The fool bought another and modded it too, and it was also banned in the most recent banning wave. I can't imagine why this guy wouldn't have been banned long before now if his consoles were modified.

Nah, this was just a screw up on Microsoft's part. Now the proper thing to do would be to admit they screwed up and agree to fix the issue, but they seem to enjoy tearing people apart and treating them like theives.

@Cyberxion101: Correction: The OP very well may have sent his consoles in to Microsoft after all, or at least one of them. His wording suggest that he's going to have to wait several weeks for Microsoft to fix their error, and while he doesn't say that he sent them in, it's a distinct possibility.

Either way, you're still way off base. You're trying to portray the guy as a pirate who knows that he's in the wrong, when by the looks of it, he's complied with Microsoft's requests.

So I guess you can put that lame-duck nonsense to rest.

@Dyscord: You're not wrong, insofar as Microsoft does have the right to deny you access to their service. However, it's still troubling that Microsoft goes poking around in your console. That's bush-league, Big Brother type shit.

Anyway, the OP said that it would take several weeks for Microsoft to check his console. He didn't say whether or not he sent it in, but his wording suggest that he's complying with whatever Microsoft is requiring of him.

You just keep making shit up to suggest that the OP is a dirty pirate and trying to hide it, but that seems to be all in your head. Get over it.

And all this "unauthorized fan" and "you bought it used" misses the point. First, that's not his story on the forum, according to this article. It was included in his letter as part of what he was telling the Consumerist, it wasn't something they added. Even if it were his story, Microsoft doesn't give a crap about fan mods. Even if it was his console and Microsoft did care about the fan - how did his fiance get banned for that too? Ditto if he bought them used (and still got the same console back despite having a "faulty first gen" and a RROD on one) - what are the odds you bought two modded consoles used, especially two modded first gens, and Microsoft didn't catch them in all that time?

@Dyscord: You keep going on about that, but the only evidence that Microsoft ever offered that option up for consideration appears to exist entirely in your head.

Methinks you ought to shut up about that.

@Nintenboy01: Oh, I went through all those steps, trust me. That's what made it so frustrating. Nobody could tell me why my card wasn't working, and for the most part, nobody seemed to care.

However, the situation improved after I moved. I changed the address on file to my new location, and now I'm good to go. :)

@LadySiren: I enjoy mine very much. In fact I play Wii Sports Resort every night. The game comes highly recommended if you don't already have it. :)

@Dyscord: I don't see why the OP should be required to send two 360 consoles to Microsoft just to prove that he didn't modify them. However, that's irrelevant, being that you're clearly reading what you want to into the OP's post.

There is nothing in it to suggest that he's resistant to sending his consoles in to Microsoft. Hell, there's nothing to suggest that this was even raised as an option for the OP to consider in the first place. Furthermore, nothing that I read on the Microsoft's 360 support forum gives me the impression that this was an option given to anyone at all. So I'm not sure how you get the impression that the OP was resistant to sending his consoles in to Microsoft. Seems like one hell of a leap to make.

As far as the story that the OP linked to goes, Microsoft wasn't in the right, and I'll tell you why. See, if you believe that Microsoft was right, that implies that you also buy the excuse they gave the guy. That excuse being that Microsoft bans modded consoles in order to maintain parity for all Live users across the board. Now if you believe that they ban consoles for that reason, then it renders the rep's excuse for why the OP's console was banned invalid, simply because there's no way that a case-fan will have any effect whatsoever on user's Live experience. His very explanation puts him in the wrong, for that simple reason.

Microsoft doesn't have any way of knowing if you've added a case fan to your system in the first place, so that couldn't possibly be why he was banned, even if the rep had covered it in his excuse. No, the rep took a disparate element that the guy was under no obligation to share, and spun it to justify Microsoft's mistake, just like you're doing here. At worst, the case-fan would have voided his warranty, but it wouldn't have got him banned from Live, even if Microsoft knew that it was in there.

As for why it's relevant, just like the OP, the guy in the story was stonewalled and treated like a criminal for no good reason. It establishes that Microsoft's position is that we're all a bunch of thieves and liars, and that it's all our fault that our consoles have been banned.

Never take no or we can't help you as an answer from them.

First thing is you have this post. Second, don't give up. Press on Xbox and request an escalation. If you demand that Xbox has treated you unfairly and that you want to speak with someone of authority they will do it. Then when you talk to that person, demand another escalation. You need to get to tier 3 to get anywhere with these people.

If those things don't work EECB everyone you can find at Microsoft and Xbox. This worked for me and I got around the "set in stone" rules because they screwed up in the first place. They know you'll give up and they don't care. Their system is broken and trust me they don't even know how it works. XBL has become a hulk so to speak. It just demolishes everything and no one knows how to truly stop it.

They make these stupid rules and systems. They can fix them.

And if MS banned you for getting fan or other similar non gameplay affecting upgrades, there'd be a lot more bans. But hey, let's blame the consumer when Microsoft hasn't exactly got the best of track records when it comes to Xbox customer service

Jeff needs to provide more detail.

E-mail stepto@xbox.com and voice your complaint. Stephen Toulouse is the manager over Enforcement for XBL. Explain your situation with him and, given some civil discourse, you will likely get unbanned.

However when you tell people these consoles were banned "to protect the gaming experience" and all you're doing is banning a huge swath of people playing backups, there's a disjunct. They're protecting their profits, not the community - which is FINE, but just be honest about it. It's like they're so embarrassed that their security measures have been defeated again and again on what was supposedly an "unhackable" console, they don't want to admit they have to keep banning pirates.

In any case, what sucks most is people like the OP, who just wanted the thing fixed, didn't know better and got banned by M$, all because the damn console is so failure-prone people were actually preemptively fixing the huge design flaws.

Microsoft Rule #2-There are no other rules.

@coopjust: Microsoft didn't ban anyone for playing MW2 before the street-date. They banned folks who have modified their DVD drives firmware to allow them to play backups, or pirated copies of 360 games.

@ktetch: I've seen many courts uphold EULAs.

[www.playnoevil.com]

@Dyscord: Dude, that's assuming that Microsoft didn't fuck up. And given that their own firmware updates have bricked consoles in the past, I'm not willing to dismiss the possibility that their verification process might be faulty.

Now you, you seem to be going out of your way to dismiss that possibility, and I'm not quite sure why. It's not exactly unprecedented for Microsoft to fuck up. I mean shit, you have to have at least heard of the whole RRoD problem, right?

And you're assuming that Microsoft ever asked him to send his system in in the first place. There's nothing to suggest that this possibility was ever raised as an option for the OP, and reading the support forums doesn't suggest that anyone else was given that option either. So you're judging him for not having done something that no accounts suggest he was ever given the option of doing, and I have to wonder why.

In fact, something about your posts just doesn't add up to me. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I might question whether or not you work for Microsoft. If I were a conspiracy theorist, that is.

How exactly would you propose that the ordinary person "go after" these so-called "pirates"? And how would that in any way be legal?

But um, it's jlm699.

Given that the OP has privacy settings enabled, and he last played Modern Warfare 2, my guess is he played the game before street date. Now, if he's telling the truth, a retailer may have broken street date- but this is not a problem if you have your receipt.

Convenient timing? or conspiracy!?

As for the OP of THIS story, if MS wants him to send his system in to double check or something then he should do it. Yeah, it sucks, but what would you have them do?

Given that you own the system but they own Xbox Live, they're perfectly justified in this. If they made a mistake, I imagine they'll own up to it.

Or use it to unlock every achievement in a game and shoot up a leaderboard, something that could ruin the game for some people who are anal about their gamerscore..

I really don't know what everyone would expect Microsoft to do. Yes, their methods are harsh, but what would you want them to do? Give people the benefit of the doubt? You can send your console in if you've been banned unfairly. If they fucked up then I imagine they'll probably own up to it.

@Dyscord: He's not right though.

While adding a case-fan voided his warranty--providing it was still in warranty when he had it done--it didn't get him banned from Live and never would. Microsoft wouldn't have any way of knowing he did it had he not told them, and besides, that's not the sort of modification that they're banning folks for anyway.

Frankly, you're just as far off base as the guy who responded to the OP in the link was. If Microsoft's true purpose for banning firmware-modified consoles from Live is to maintain parity in every user's Live experience across the board, then whether or not a case-fan was added to his console has no bearing on that one way or the other. So that being the case, it can hardly be used to justify having banned his console, even if Microsoft had a way to tell that it had been done in the first place.

Nah, that he added a case-fan to his console was a coincidence, and he probably only mentioned it for the same reason so many misguided people keep going on about it, which is that it is a modification. However, it's not the sort of modification that would result in anything worse than a voided warranty. I'm rather appalled that Microsoft is trying to spin it to justify having banned the guy from Live, when they wouldn't have known that it had happened in the first place had he not told them about it.

That he added a case-fan might come into play when he attempts to send it in to repair the inevitable RRoD, but even then it would only be a factor once Microsoft takes possession of it, and goes on to determine that the warranty has been voided. And even then it wouldn't even stop them from repairing it. They'd just charge him to do it. That's assuming that he won't just take it back to the guy who original repaired it for him. So that the case-fan was added is wholly irrelevant to the situation at hand. He didn't get banned for it, and I wish people would stop saying that it has anything at all to do with the guy's problem. The guy in the link, that is.

How else would you suggest they do this? They want the OP to send the system in to double check, he doesn't seem to want to do that since "It might take weeks". What more should they do?

@Portalis: Oh, that.

Yeah, I still don't get why that was a big deal. The petition doesn't really clarify anything, other than that gamers apparently have huge senses of self-entitlement.

@parad0x360: Exactly. Adding a case-fan to your system is a far-cry from modifying your drive's firmware to run pirated games.

@bigd7387: It voids your warranty at worst, but cannot be used as justification for banning your Live account. Besides, Microsoft wouldn't have any f'ing way of knowing that you put a case fan in your console in the first place, so that the guy in the link did is coincidental at best, but not a symptom of the problem.

@Cyberxion101: Try to match the Address info EXACTLY with what appears on your credit card statement. My pal had a similar issue. Use all caps if necessary.

If they're different be sure to point that out. If they still won't budge, consider contacting the local media or writing Gates/Ballmer. I'm sure whoever checks their mail would be very interested in learning just how flawed their Live devision support really is.

Sounds like a Microsoft scame to get people to buy new consoles so they can access their live accounts again.

Actually MS does NOT check consoles that come in for RROD repair for mods. There is an entire thread on this on slickdeals. MS often sends out an entirely new (refurbed) console to those that get RROD. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what happened.

While that seems like a solution that probably works, it's simply too much for me to deal with. $50 Live Fee + $30 Insurance for the console and there's STILL a possibility that MS will ban you. Add that to the initial cost of the unit and for 4 years of gaming you pay about $640-ish.

It might be a lure if you're heavily into Xbox only titles, but with the PS3 it's $300 for the console and let's say $100 for 1 repair over a 4 year period. The Xbox just isn't worth the hassle anymore. I feel like a persecuted criminal when all I did was get my console fixed.

I understand the desire to make sure people aren't using mods to give them an advantage in the game. I get that. But Microsoft's way of dealing with it betrays their controlling nature and lack of boundaries. Surely there are ways to catch cheaters without forcing everyone to give up the rights to private property.

Just don't expect to be able to connect it to Xbox Live.

At this point, considering that Microsoft is at least willing to try to fix the problem, I'm going to side with them here.

The fact that the OP posted a link to something that a) is not related and b) is a case where MS is in the right, doesn't help either.

You won't get banned for fixing the RROD yourself or any other similar problem. There is no way for MS to tell, other than that the RROD went away (which happens on occasion, anyways).

The only exception is if you start to replace parts rather than repair them. If your DVD drive goes bad, then you'd have to mod another DVD drive to make it work in your console. If your HDD goes bad, fixing it would entail using a hacked HDD. Etc, etc.

Anyone who knows what they're doing should be able to tell you if the repair would likely ban your console or not.

Also, it's hard to really take sides on something like this - if he did mod the consoles, do you really think he's gonna own up to that publicly? This could be a ploy by a pirate to use the power of the consumerist to circumvent a legit ban. The fact of the matter is, there are software markers to look for to determine whether the firmware on a DVD drive has been tampered with or not. If MS is finding those markers, then the console is most likely modded, even if the customer was unaware of the mod (in the case of a used 360). Accidents happen, and that's why MS is willing to reinvestigate a ban - but if the reinvestigation turns up the same results, the ban will stand, regardless of the story from the customer.

This is EXACTLY why I will not buy a used 360.

I have seen a lot of banned X-boxes going up on ebay lately, though. I wouldn't expect to get more than $50 max for it.

All people spend some money on entertainment in one form or another. What forms of entertainment should they choose?

Certain particularly inexpensive options are friendly card games or network television. TV watched online can be inexpensive as well. Most people are going to pay for their internet access and cable whether they use it much or not, so using it is certainly preferable. But very few people are going to be happy never doing anything fun other than watching tv or surfing the web.

Night at the movies? For 2 people, $20 for tickets, maybe $10 for snacks, for about 3 hours of entertainment.

Eating dinner out? Anywhere from $20-$100 for a couple of hours.

1 good video game? $40-$60 for a new release (less for older or used games), for anywhere from 20-100 hours of entertainment per person, depending on the game and genre.

Now, entertainment values of different media will vary from person to person, but in terms of dollars per hour, it is difficult to do much better than a good video game.

"That is their choice, and their TOS does state they have the right to refuse service, but don't make the mistake of thinking modding is illegal, its not."

As for the DMCA, I went back through the rights, and while there are exceptions, for example,
# Library or educational use
# Law enforcement or governmental use
# Reverse engineering
# Analog tape copying (pertaining to some VHS/Beta videotapes)

The one I mentioned was not listed, as backups generally fall under fair use laws, and are not part of the DMCA itself, although bypassing mechanisms protecting those devices is a murky situation, and has not truly been tested in a court case.

There are no specific devices that would be listed under a waiver, they would be classes of devices or products. As for whether or not the 360 is listed under one of those classes is irrelevant, since you are modifying the software on the CD (by bypassing the DRM and encryption used on the CD itself). The modification to the 360 would be just telling it to ignore the lack on protection. That in itself is not illegal, nor does it even require a waiver.

But again, like you said, and like I said which you apparently did not understand or read, MS has the right to refuse service for any reason, short of violating laws on race, sex and other similar factors.

It is likely that when his original Xbox RRoD'ed, the "fixed" replacement sent by Microsoft was a refurbished unit (the revived carcass from someone else's RRoD'ed Xbox). That unit could have been modded in the past without his knowledge and triggered his ban.

Sadly, the most cost-effective way around this is to purchase a brand new $199 unit and transfer your account over to it. You could spend hours and hours on the phone, sending emails and complaining in support forums.

This is win-win for Microsoft, win-lose for Consumers.

@Willow01: I have all three. I love my Wii most, followed by my PS3, then my 360. However, I use and enjoy them all. :)

@JediJohn82: No doubt. I had issues getting the Playstation store to accept my credit card, and nobody at Sony seemed at all interested in helping me in any meaningful way.

Every e-mail I sent to their support address was met with links to their online help repository, and when I managed to get someone on the phone to talk about the problem, they told me to buy a PSN card.

Yeah, I know that I have that option, but I was after a $5.99 PSX game. I didn't want to have to spend a minimum of $20 to get it. Which I would imagine is why Sony doesn't want to take steps to correct the problem.

you have obviously never played a game of halo online where a guy using a modded console... which by your definition will only play 1:1 copies of games... has a shotgun that shoots warthogs.

so long story short your Wrong, but the piracy is also a significant portion of why they did this

Unless the fan is added in a REALLY stupid way, there's no possible way for MS to tell there's a fan in the box without it physically in their hands, or being told about it.

My advice to the op is that if he wants his service back then he'll need to send his console to microsoft and let them sort it out.

It only costs 30 bucks a year to keep your console under warranty. If you are an Xbox 360 user, you know the chance of it dying is pretty good. I don't see why any 360 user would not want to warranty their console.

If mine died and was out of warranty, I'd gladly pay MS to fix it as then it won't ever be banned. MS has been banning modded consoles for years. This isn't anything new.

Did the OP seriously expect his console to work on LIVE after he had someone add a fan to it? I don't know that the cost was to add a fan locally, but I bet it was more than 30 bucks.

Odds are that the people involved either bought used consoles that were modded... OR they took them in for repairs somewhere. In other words, the user may not have known, but ignorance is no excuse.

Banning a console doesn't mean you can't play it. You just can't go online with it.

The funny thing is that Microsoft isn't the only company to crack down on mods and such. Look at Sony and the PSP, or Nintendo and the DS (even if they are rather lenient about it).

I don't buy that the "only way this could happen" was if his xbox was modded somewhere along the way. Microsoft could just have a screwed-up verification process which give false positives when looking for modded consoles.

They ban for 1 reason and 1 reason only. Detecting modified dvd firmware.

It may seem stupid, but MS runs a tight ship when it comes to modding. It's so that their Live service would be (theoretically) more enjoyable.

Who said anything about "illegal". The console still works, it just cannot connect to Xbox Live, a service with a giant ToS.

The poster in the thread is a different guy. The OP is only using that as an example to show how poor the Microsoft customer service on its forums are.

Probably won't happen for a long time since they only have two retail stores right now, but it sounds like an option that Microsoft could implement easy enough.

But 'had someone work on them'? Really? You're chalking that up to the fault of the user?

Microsoft is refusing to repair consoles that die with many many excuses that aren't legit. Either that or they flatly deny any warranty claims. My console died about 10 days out of the 1 year warranty and MS refused to budge. So I took it in to a repair shop and got it fixed there for 50% less than MS would have charged me. Nothing was modded. You're saying it's ok for MS to ban these consoles??

Sony is a big mean corporation just like Microsoft. They wouldn't think twice about banning a PS3 from their network either; and you'd get the same crappy answers from their customer support.

Please, check your facts (and more importantly, check the facts made by anti-'piracy' groups, and the middleman industry. Well, you could check their facts, if they actually had any. (There's an old joke in this field, "The reason the federation against copyright theft was formed, was so they could have at least one fact on their side")

@chocobo:

Points well made. But Damn, it's still $5200 for video games.

I haven't modded my system, but I'm not going to invest more $ in the console and my online experience only to be randomly banned in a wave of banning. From now on I'll be sticking with my PS3 for console games.

Modding also allows you to run backups of games you own when you made those backups yourself. Lets face it, games are extremely expensive, 3 games are more expensive then the console itself.

What it comes down to, is MS attempting to control every aspect, similar to Apple with its hardware/software. That is their choice, and their TOS does state they have the right to refuse service, but don't make the mistake of thinking modding is illegal, its not.

Anything (whether it be cars, computers, guns, etc etc) can be modified for both legal purposes and illegal purposes, and last I checked, innocent until proven guilty is the way things are supposed to be.

And before you start spouting the DMCA law, that law has provisions that make it perfectly legal to modify devices and such to make and run legally purchased and backed up data.

[news.bigdownload.com]

This was a running petition to Infinity Ward: [www.petitiononline.com]

Over 200,000 Signatures, and they still don't listen. It's all about control.

This, however, is impossible considering I haven't used Home since it came out little more than a year ago and that my PS3(s) have been broken for quite some time.

Gonna have to call sometime tomorrow.

I've also yet to see any court agreement which has ever ruled on the validity of these clickwrap agreements, so can you point me to them?

We need his. The details.

Add a fan = mod.
Flash the drive = mod.
Add a chip = mod.
Buy a second hand console that someone else tinkered with, whether you know it or not = mod.

Controllers have mods too. Auto-reload, automatic fire, etc.

There is not enough information, but because the 360 had hardware issues, and is made by Microsoft, Consumerist will post it.

@HazyCloud: What campus do you work at? I was out at Red West for a year as dash trash. never so glad as to put that behind me though the cafeteria was great.

- Actual Mods (firmware or chips)
- HDD Hacking, or purchasing HDD from unusual places which is likely hacked
- Too many games (especially weird imports) to the point M$ thinks you're pirating them
- Unofficial memory cards (although I don't think this is part of the current ban wave)
- Network trouble (often resulting in a positive score for the gamer), eg: lag switch type stuff
- Super low rep and complaints from others that you're running a modded console
- Hacked/stolen/keygenned/already-used points cards (could be purchased from online stores and seem to be totally legit--ALWAYS get the real card in the mail)

Now, I'm not saying any of these are good reasons, I'm just giving a list and which ones you could have, unfortunately, been screwed on. M$ isn't nice and probably won't unban your consoles. If you replace them you're probably OK, though. But your old savegames might not work on the new XBOXes. And, if you manage to make them work, they may ban your new ones. :(

Don't go around saying you spent X amount on Xbox stuff but then complaining that you've been banned for not buying a console new or having an unofficial repairman work on it. Sorry, I've got no pity for you.

Also to those saying MS is banning legit consoles, I highly doubt it. They aren't looking to ban the guy who pays 50 bucks a year for Live and 60 bucks per game.

@JGKojak:
Read your agreement for you system or software. You may own the physical device but you do not own what actually makes it run, you only rent or lease the actual use of the system. Its called intellectual property and has been proven to exist by the highest courts in all the countries. The system is designed to be used a certain way and thats it and other use is considered a breach of contract and your using it will be terminated. If you don't like the terms of use don't buy or use the product. Not one company forced you to purchase it.

People spend their money in dumb ways that happen to be fun for them. Shockingly, not every dollar earned is used for long-term investments, paying bills, or helping the needy.

Bullshit. A modded console, for all intents and purposes, plays only 1:1 exact backups, nothing gets "hacked" that could affect the "game and the experience" any more than a stock console.

Not that i'm condoning modding consoles of any kind, however microsoft needs to stop the deceptive doublespeak and "protecting gamers" stance: it's about stopping people from playing copied / pirated games, period.

But then again, I won't run Windows, for the same reason.

First I did the PS3 thing 2 years ago and owned it for a whole 5 months before selling because of the major suckage. With that said I still can't feel sorry for anyone "claiming" they were banned for no reason. In this day and age with pirating going on with games, music and movies companies are acting to protect their money, which they should. The OP should not take it out on MS and go after the real problem the pirates. Those theifs are to blame, not the companies.

As the thread says, the poster had some local guy modify his xbox. Sorry, you lose.

Also, in the live TOS it says that they can ban as they see fit. Is it right? No. But that is the law set forth by MS on their service and they are enforcing it on this guy. I normally don't support MS on an issue, but with this it's kind of spelled out in black & white: you cant do what this guy did.

That Microsoft is not only missing the guilty but banning the innocent is completely sdrawkcab ssa.

Why the hell is it a problem he "mods" his console???

I get it if he's using pirated software- but replacing a fan or putting in a new HD? Why is that wrong and why, if I own the system, am I not allowed to do with it whatever the hell I want?

Yup. Having a local shop install a fan is "modding". Not all "modding" means "make it play games I downloaded over the internet".

Buy a new deck for $140 at Gamestop.

What, having a real fan inside the box gives the player an unfair advantage? LOL. Yeah I guess his XBOX wont overheat in the middle of a game.

As for why it was banned, if you get through to someone and they are actually willing to take a look, the warranty sticker inside and such will have to be intact.

I also ask if either / both decks were bought 2nd hand. Consoles / accounts can be flagged months in advance.

On the plus side, if the deck stays banned, you can mod it to play backups now.

This isn't so much of a DRM issue as it is an issue with proper use of the banhammer. MS decided to crack down big time on modded consoles (i.e., ones that allow you to play burned games that you didn't pay for, etc.), and apparently some legit consoles are feeling the wrath as well.

Kind of stinks for this guy because I happen to know of a couple people who's modded consoles are still working.

@OMG! SP00N: Can we please, please not get into the debate how the xBox 360 is an unreliable piece of crap and Microsoft stinks and doesn't care about their customers vs. how the PS3 is...I dunno, expensive. Or something.

It's all been said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

A good friend of mine writes for a game website and he told me about a news story he reported on...if you go to a used game store and buy a used box that has been banned that you now own a $300 paper weight. You will not be able to connect to live with that box. I thought that was horrible. I use Live and I love playing my 360 but I have to sort of push who owns the company and their policies to the back of my mind.

As to your comment about the machine is yours, you are right. That being said they aren't stopping you from playing your games, just from using the Live service to play multiplayer games which you pay a service fee for. Just like your internet provider might suspend or terminate your service because you have a virus on it sending out spam and you don't take care it. The computer is your hardware to do what you wish but when you impact their network with a virus they have a right to refuse that service to you for impacting their network.

It's all about preserving the integrity of the online experience on XBL.

Did the original poster buy the 360's on ebay or other meant where the console may have been modified before purchase? Used from GameStop perhaps? Do any of the 68 games that the OP owns have the title of the game written with a sharpie on the disk?

Or is Microsoft starting to have some false positives with their monitoring system?

@gerrylum: Nah, having a trouble-free system like that would be waaaaay too easy.

I think he said that both consoles have gotten banned, so he can't do anything right now

If this guy is actually being honest (but then again how many people in the defendants chair dont plead thier innocence) they only way this could happen is if he somehow got himself a modded "refurbished" console back when he sent his xbox in for repair... but that also depends on if he sent it back to microsoft or another retailer who did the repair

I logged in to find myself banned the other day, and I bought mine off of Woot about a year ago, so I'm wondering how "Refurbished" my system was.

I've honestly been waiting to hear something more about it, but my kids can still play their games, and I don't let them play online anyway, so until I hear more info, I'm just gonna wait.

I'll have to check my 360.

I opened the HDD enclosure once my warranty expired to see what sort of drive they had in there since I only have a 20GB drive, and was considering a back end upgrade. If they banned me they've lost a customer for life. I 100% understand the need to control access to the hardware when the appliance is under warranty, but once the warranty is expire that mthfckr is MINE!

So... if I read correctly, Microsoft is going to look into the issue? Sure, it'll take a few weeks. With the mass bannings of consoles lately, you can expect it to take a little while...

DRM sucks, and it sucks even worse when the company refused to fix it when it goes wrong.

Or just get PS3s.