Back in April, Derek copied us on his e-mail to Jobs:
I took my mid 2007 apple macbook (black) into the Jordan Creek Apple Store in West Des Moines, Iowa, on Saturday, April 25th, because I had been experiencing some issues with it overheating, and figured the fan was bad. After some initial testing, they took the computer in for work under my Applecare plan, which has over a year remaining on it.
Today, April, 28, 2008, the Apple store called and informed me that due to the computer having been used in a house where there was smoking, that has voided the warranty and they refuse to work on the machine, due to "health risks of second hand smoke".
Not only is this faulty science, attributing non smoking residue to second hand smoke, on Chad's part, no where in your applecare terms of service can I find anything mentioning being used in a smoking environment as voiding the warranty.
Jobs' office did not help Derek, but he resolved some of the problems himself by disassembling his Macbook and cleaning it out with a can of compressed air.
A few months later, reader Ruth wrote to us with an identical complaint after trying to have her son's iMac repaired at a local authorized repair center.
I bought an iMac for my son (for school) along with the extended Applecare warranty. A month ago, it quit working. My son took it to the authorized Mac service center. The "tech" informed him it would be ready in 48-72 hours. Five days go by and he's heard nothing, so I called. They informed me that his computer can't be worked on because it's contaminated.
When I asked for an explanation, she said he's a smoker and it's contaminated with cigarette smoke which they consider a bio-hazard! I checked my Applecare warranty and it says nothing about not honoring warranties if the owner is a smoker. The Applecare representative said they defer to the technician and my son's computer cannot be fixed at any Apple Service Center due to being listed a bio-hazard.
This computer cost approx. $3,000, with the extended warranty. I'm all for destroying cigarettes and putting big tobacco out of business (yes, I'm a reformed smoker), but to label a computer a biohazard because one is a smoker is going a bit too far in regulating who can have the warranty they purchased honored. Shouldn't there be some disclaimer stating that they won't honor warranties from smokers?
Ruth appealed her case to Steve Jobs's office, which also declined to repair the iMac. In another letter, she wrote:
Dena [from Jobs' office] did advise me that nicotine is on OSHA's list of hazardous substances and Apple would not require an employee to repair anything deemed hazardous to their health. However, OSHA also lists calcium carbonate (found in calcium tablets), isopropyl alcohol (used to clean wounds), chlorine (used in swimming pools), hydrogen peroxide (also used to clean wounds), sucrose (a sugar), talc (as in powder), etc... as hazardous substances.
...
Dena set up an appointment at the same Apple store. They told me that they would take pictures of the computer - both inside and out before determining whether to proceed and that if the only problem was the optical drive, they'd probably just replace it. Dena called me earlier this week to deliver the "bad news." She said that the computer is beyond economical repair due to tar from cigarette smoke! She said the hard drive is about to fail, the optical drive has failed and it isn't feasible to repair the computer under the warranty. This computer is less than 2 years old! Only one person in my household smokes - one 21 year old college student. She said that I can get it repaired elsewhere at my expense. I asked why my warranty didn't cover the repair and was told it's an OSHA violation.
UPDATE:On Monday, reader Jeniffer wrote in that she has experienced the same problem with her Mac--in the last week.
I own a mac and live in Oklahoma. Recently the burner stopped working. We have AppleCare so we took it in 2 days ago for repair. We just recieved a call today stating we needed to come get it because they are refusing to work on it due to health hazards from second hand smoke due to OSHA violations.Consumerist has tried repeatedly to obtain some kind of answer about these two cases from Apple's media relations department, and we have received nothing on the record after months of waiting. Mostly, we're curious what the threshold is for smoke damage to a computer, and why this is not mentioned in the Applecare contract.
(Photo: Sutanto Saputro ???)
]]>
So to the warranty issue. Whether the hardware failure was smoke-related is irrelevant. If the technicians did find residue on any parts it would be easy to say it was being used in an "improper environment", thus clearing them of any warranty commitments. Perhaps I would take the owner's side if Apple refused repairs because of "too much dust", but the owners in this situation clearly did not hold up their end of the warranty agreement.
"This computer is less than 2 years old! Only one person in my household smokes - one 21 year old college student".
Does this mean you would understand if it were two retirees? Laughable.
]]>I grew up with 3 smokers, now I do know that it is not healthy to smoke in any way, nor is it so for drinking......it is just such a double standard for smokers though. Those that drink do seem to have everything in their favor, yet smokers are pushed around and not treated very well. Just look at the cigarette tax vs. the alcohol taxes, the first is raised every time the government wants someone to bail out the public with tax funds, yet the bingers do not need to worry about it because their tax has not been raised in 20+ years.
A bit one sided, don't you think??? I say we ban both cigarettes and alcohol for all, not just for some. That is unfortunately the american way, allowing some to indulge and refusing others.
What a shame that these people paid for the products plus the extended warranty coverage then get screwed after paying for it and expecting it to be there when they needed it most.
]]>We concluded the Zip heads were probably coated with the same crap and stickiness in the memory sockets prevented upgrades. I don't blame Apple for refusing to honor the warranty under similar circumstances.
]]>If there is a problem, blaming the consumer is a poor and might I ad amateurish way of dealing with that problem.
Apple will always be looking up, to the leaders in the field. Their second class attitude shines through every time.
]]>If they admit their employees during assesment of computers, might in their own opinion, be expossed to a bio-hazard. Why has the company not provided their Genius crowd with bio-hazard suits, to protect them from the known and long understood yet "unavoidable exposures" they are claiming could seriously affect the health of their own workers.
The case is confirmed by their own public statements. They are likely killing millions of "geniuses" by failing to implement a best practices approach. How much is that going to cost them, when an Apple described "genius" is put at an avoidable and careless risk to their health, just to cash out and make a quick buck? The costs could run into the hundreds of millions if just one of the genius crowd starts a class action and claims work exposure caused cancer or any of the well established "smoking related diseases" for that matter.
Apple employees should be wearing Haz-matt suits, as an obligation of employment. That is if we can believe everything they are telling us.
]]>_
]]>In the UK at least products have to be "fit for purpose" and selling such products to home users obviously means that they will be supplied to people who smoke, which would imply that the manufacturer would have to specifically state in the items specifications that the operating environment should be smoker-free, which in turn would probably be taken as infringing on some human right or other.
Personally I have no problem working on smokers machines, I've had to deal with PCs full of dust, dog and human hair, several time on ones infested with dust mites and/or fleas as well on one memorable occasion one with half a rotten roast chicken forced inside. A little bit of tar would be a nice quick friday-afternoon job. Sounds to me like the "techs" are more than a little work-shy.
]]>They do have language vague enough that it could be used to justify warranty refusal if I:
1. live in a home heated with wood
2. live in Texas (and their repair techs suffer from "cedar fever")
3. live in a home with plaster instead of wallboard (dustier)
I'm skeptical Apple's justification would survive even small claims court in my tobacco-friendly state.
Also keep in mind that extended warranties like Applecare are really insurance products usually heavily regulated by your state (for those in the U.S.)
Ultimately your individual state gets to decide if Apple's interpretation on tobacco smoke is valid (at least if Apple wants to keep selling their extremely lucrative Applecare there)
Notice in all the news stories here and elsewhere Apple itself makes NO official comment, as Apple understands they'll need to evaluate (and litigate) on a case-by-case basis.
]]>While the APP doesn't mention ETS, tar or nicotine specifically, it does mention "abuse," "extreme environment," and "other external causes." If Apple can prove that the machine is broken as a direct result of exposure to ETS, then, unfortunately, even I have to agree with them. ETS isn't exactly within the normal operating parameters for a computer. In that case, it's not "discrimination" against smokers, it's just common sense.
A bad fan can easily be listed as "normal wear and tear or otherwise due to normal aging," especially if the owner didn't take due diligence in clearing it out.
However, I would like to know how working on a nicotine exposed product is a violation of OSHA. OSHA has listed allowable limits for all harmful chemicals and it boggles my mind to think that there would be enough nicotine stuck to a laptop that it would violate those guidelines.
]]>Put that in your pipe and smoke it?
]]>Apple has always been very snobish about itself, since the days of it's formation. This is one of the main reasons I refuses to buy a SINGLE Apple product. Each sale will only boost Apple's snobishness.
So what's next? "Apple refuses to fix a customer's computer after they found porn movies in the harddisk and believes that (stale) biohazard wastes left after a porn session is hazardous to the health and well-being of it's staff ...." LOL!!!!
So what's next? "Apple refuses to fix a customer's computer after they found porn movies in the harddisk and believes that (stale) biohazard wastes left after a porn session is hazardous to the health and well-being of it's staff ...." LOL!!!!
]]>Oh, and hard drives are NOT sealed. All disk based hard drives have holes which are marked "Warranty void if this hole is blocked". These draw air into hard drives. Prolonged exposure to cigarette smoke absolutely will gum up a hard drive.
]]>I agree 100%. Apple had every right to void the warranty.@eskimo81:
]]>As a tech I see this all the time. I have instilled a policy on computers that I build that I will not honor the warranty on any system that has been around smoke.
]]>If you live out in a rural area and don't have natural gas or oil heat and rely on a wood stove and use your Mac close by, if you get particulate inside will they not honour the warranty for the same reason?
]]>Approx. 47.1 million Americans smoke (American Heart Assn)- making it fairly commonplace. Use of a vague and undefined exclusionary clause cannot be expected to apply to a common occurrence. Other manufacturers who limit their liability to cigarette smokers explicitly define this in their warranty (see Planar's warranty at: [www.planar.com]). No information was provided to educate me that Apple computers were not durable enough to hold up in common environmental conditions.
I don't smoke. I don't like secondhand smoke. But, I honor my promises and Apple's warranty is a promise to repair or replace the computer I purchased. Period.
]]>I told him I wasn't gonna touch it... get a new one.
]]>@Kaosian: theres several cities then that will never be able to have a pc.
]]>@cluberti: if they know air is gonna get inside then they also know that everything else is gonna come with it. so i cant use my computer in say california now, b/c of all the pollutants thats gonna get in it?
]]>I can't disagree with Apple on this one. I'm a tech, and I am allergic to ciggy smoke. The residue left by constant smoking while using the computer is astonishing.
I would have deemed it an environmental issue as well, even though the warranty does not spell out ciagrette smoke specifically.
I've had another tech dump hot chocolate into a printer, and not say anything until it was discovered. HP honestly doesn't care that lots of people enjoy hot chocolate, and that people choose to drink it while operating their devices. They DO care if you try and hand in that sticky mess and claim warranty support, even though hot chocolate is not listed in the environmental hazards that would void the warranty.
Enjoy your hot chocolate, and your smokes, away from your electronics if you want to avoid this.
]]>Driving a car is hazardous and releases way more toxic chemicals than cigarette smoke. Do you drive a car?
]]>Maybe self-righteous dicks like yourself are the reason smokers want to "commit public suicide". To not live to be an 83-year-old tool walking around bugging people about their own damn choice.
]]>@cluberti:
It's the byproducts of burning that damage health, not the nicotine. Nicotine actually has health benefits. For instance, it temporarily increases nicotinic acetylcholine receptors in the brain. If one has an adequate supply of acetylcholine precursors (or takes supplements such as alpha-GPC and uridine) one's cognition will be improved in areas such as short term memory, logical thought processes, and creativity. Nicotine also increases endogenous glutathione production in the lungs, which is protective against lung cancer.
]]>@Powerlurker:
"Light" cigarettes don't have less nicotine, they have perforated paper which causes the smoker to draw in some air when they inhale, somewhat diluting the smoke. But the smoke coming off the lit end is the same.
I just cleaned out my old deep fryer today because I upgraded, and the residue around the white shell and lid reminded me of this type of gunk.
Yeah, it's nasty.
]]>There must be a representative entity in the district in which you intend to file suit, so in the case of Apple, you have to serve the local Apple store with papers. If you want to sue steve jobs, it would have to be in the county where he lives and or works.
]]>I have thrown out working computers which I had inherited from smokers. I wouldn't expect a technician to work on a computer which had human feces inside or on it and I wouldn't expect them to work with that nasty, sticky, goo substance either.
I would repair a toilet than a computer which has been smoked around. Yes smokers, it really is that disgusting to some of us. Hopefully knowing that helps you understand why we don't want it anywhere near us when we're eating in restaurants.
]]>Sue Steve Jobs personally in small claims court for the cost of having the item fixed somewhere else. Apple is not allowed to send lawyers to these court proceedings in California. Breach of Contract is a slam dunk. And don't forget to subpeona Mr. Jobs as to why he has directed such stupidity to become company policy.
]]>So, in short, Apple doesn't have to fix it, just like they wouldn't fix a computer that got flooded with soda.
so it's fair for Apple to say they can't force their employees to deal with it. double when OSHA says they can't. and given that OSHA has rules about how hot or cold a workplace can be, I am not shocked they might have rules about nicotine exposure.
]]>that said, the next time your iphone falls into an unflushed toliet, don't just scoop it up and bring it to be fixed in a ziploc baggie. especially if you are going to wait until the guy has grabbed it and is handling it to tell him what it was dropped in.
saw that today when I went in to replace an old ipod. i thought the poor guy behind the counter was going to hurl when he heard 'in the toliet'
]]>and the AppleCare conditions to say that user abuse and accidental damage are not covered.
plus we have only the customer's word that what was said was said, how it was reported as having been said. for all we know the machine was examined, they were told it couldn't be fixed under warranty due to the condition, which was likely caused by heavy or repeated smoking around the machine. the customer pulls a 'then what am I supposed to do' and was told to try carefully cleaning it out or taking it to a company that specializes in detailed internal cleaning (something the Apple Stores have never offered in or out of warranty to my knowledge) and when the customer retored 'why can't you do it, you have my machine there already' was told that since OSHA lists nicotine and tar as hazard materials they can't legally make the techs do such a service (because if the person got sick they could sue for worker's comp etc)
]]>So, let's look at reality. Reality is I choose to smoke, I have a good chance of dying due to the effects smoking has on my body. I accept that risk if I choose to smoke. It can have an effect on sensitive electronic equipment too. Apple didn't state they accept the risk for my bad decisions. They didn't waive any right they have not to repair my computer under warranty by selling me a an extended warranty and not getting my personal information with it (i.e. are you a smoker). In fact, I'm quite happy they don't ask for my personal information.
If I chose to use my laptop in the tub, and it takes water damage, Apple is going to laugh me out of the store even if I show up with Apple Care and Pro Care. Their answer will rightly be, "I DON'T care."
So, roll the dice, move your mice. Don't like the game, don't play. You may have a right to smoke, but I have a right not to be penalized by covering the cost of your bad decisions (in higher warranty charges). Move on, get over it, and if it really bothers you, start a business that caters to repairing electronics owned by smokers. And shut your noise!
]]>Those pics are completely accurate - especially the one of the fan. Dust sticks to the tar like a flytrap. More tar sticks to the dust, and the process repeats.
I take my fans out every couple of months to clean them off. And even as a smoker, I wear a dust mask because that stuff gets airborne very easily and will make me sick.
]]>Just saying..
]]>That's my issue. Don't just make up bullshit, or I'm going to call you on it. Legitimately tell me why you denied my claim, and respect my request for proof (picture of the tar, or just show it to me when I pick it up).
That's what Whirlpool, Dell, LG, and a few other companies have always done for me and my family (Whirlpool was just the most recent, Dell and LG rather frequent) and that's why I respect their extended warranties and would actually purchase them.
TL;DR: Apple most likely had a legitimate reason: but they should have just told the people that, or the reason they -did- tell them should have been included in the warranty.
]]>The issue isn't that the computers were legitimately broken.. it's that they blamed it on something else, and that the warranty doesn't mention it.
Now, had the lady on the phone said "Sorry, the computer is broken because you covered it in crap (inadvertently), and we don't cover that (spelled out in the warranty)" I would have completely agreed with her.
]]>This is a wonderful issue for apple to pick, because of all of the "smoking is the devil" hysteria. They can get nonsmokers to support them, of course that support will change when a nonsmoker gets denied because their machine was exposed to smoke as they walked down the street.
If it is so harmful and can void the main warranty as well as the extended warranty, they need to spell it out in the contract. You do not have the option to alter the terms of the agreement because you want to later.
]]>Many years ago, when I was a PC tech for a small shop, a customer who reeked of tobacco brought in a desktop computer which he said had just stopped working. After he left, we opened up the computer to discover that the inside of the computer was covered with a thick red dust. We knew instantly it was from smoking. We took it out back and blew air from the compressor on it. This created a cloud of dust about the size of a car, that thankfully floated upward.
We told the customer that the problem was caused by cigarette smoke, and that we recommend he didn't smoke in the same room as the computer anymore. However, since there was no warranty involved, we would be happy to repair it regularly at our usual prices.
I imagine you, as a tech, get paid for the work you do? There's no reason you need to care about someone's computer, but it is kind of your JOB to fix it. If people stopped doing dumb shit to their computers a lot of people like you would be out of work.
If, however, you are repairing computers as some kind of charitable act, you should feel totally free to invent your own criteria to determine the worthiness of each computer owner to receive a repair from you.
]]>So I think we need to see the insides of these computers before passing any judgement on Apple's part.
]]>What Apple is saying is "it smells of tar, warranty void!". Such a finding is NOT allowed under the AppleCare contract. Read the AppleCare contract over, the ONLY mechanism for voiding the warranty in full is upon application by the customer or Apple AFTER a pro-rated refund. There is absolutely NO mechanism for voiding the entire warranty for damage (short of having damaged every single component).
]]>Steve Jobs is a d*ck anyway.
]]>I wish there was a way to rate your post up because until I saw the photos I thought Apple was being ridiculous but after seeing them I think Apple might be on to something.
]]>People may be smoking near computers but apple has been emitting massive amounts of smug for over 20 years.
]]>You can tell how fast smoke builds up by seeing how fast a smoker's car windows cloud over. I hardly ever have to clean mine.
]]>Unless the computer is spontaneously generating a layer of tar (my macbook and macbook pro don't) then it is something in the computer's environment that caused the tar to accumulate.
If a fan is covered in tar, and the computer is overheating, there is no way you can try to logically conclude that the fan being full of gunk was not related to the overheating.
Smoking is an especially difficult one because the tar accumulation can damage the internal components, solder joints, etc and directly cause a NUMBER of failures that wouldn't have happened but for the presence of a nice chemical goo.
Consumers who have had coverage denied under applecare can request to cancel their applecare coverage and recieve a pro-rata refund of the purchase price if they contact AppleCare. That's what these customers should do.
The AppleCare terms do not specifically enumerate orange juice as a warranty voider, but we denied service last week to someone whose motherboard was covered in solidified tang. Apple is not legally required to enumerate every possible circumstance that could lead to denial of service...if it logically follows that the computer would not be covered in gunk if the user didn't smoke, then it's the same thing as if the user decided to systematically coat their computer's internals in glue for fun.
Ignorance is not a defense...if you don't know smoking might damage your computer, I guess you just found out, huh?
]]>The word biohazard has been horribly misused throughout this. A biohazard is something that's infectious, not something that's toxic. I'm not sure which of them started using it -- Apple, one of the Mac owners, or the writer for Consumerist.
]]>Not sure what the issue is, seems like breech of contract, very simple to get fixed. The idea what since the device was in a smoke environment makes it a bio-hazard is flawed, even if the person used the keyboard as a ashtray, its just ash. Granted that would void the warrenty for it being damaged by the user but not as a bio-hazard.
]]>It's too much. I just want a working computer and to not be mocked for not being an early adopter.
]]>The people telling Apple to go ahead and fix the machines I reckon have never even touched a system that's been around a smoker. Seriously, they always end up with this gummy sticky dust that has to be scrubbed off. Fans fail, heatsinks get coated and this is the source of your ills.
If you smoke and want your computer to not break, put the cancer sticks down and DON'T SMOKE NEAR VALUABLE ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT!
]]>So now, Apple is trying to make it so people have to be careful about what others do to their laptop? Sorry, but user damage needs to be proven. Would cost more than the laptop was worth for Apple to prove it on a case by case basis. As for health hazard? If you aren't repairing it, then you replace it.
A person would need to smoke 3 packs a day for it to build up that much within the term of the warranty, either that or Apple is at fault for poor ventilation on its laptops. Guess next step here is small claims court. Don't forget to sue for the cost of the laptop and the warranty.
]]>I ask smokers I see smoking in public why they want to commit suicide in public, and they have no answer. So why should a computer want to commit computerside in public either, if only it could talk.
I'm already 83 years old, in perfect health, and have never smoked. But my best friend from childhood was dead at 40 from heavy smoking, with consequential lung cancer. I'd suspect that smoking around your computer will cut it's effective life in half as well. Why would you want to do that to your trusty computer?
]]>@admiral_stabbin:
So... damaged cause to a computer by fault of the customer should be covered by warranty then?
Wow.
Noone is pawning anything off on anyone, the computer was misused and abused. Simple. Open and shut. Case closed.
Apple is correct here.
]]>I'm in utter disbeleif that someone can even think that smoking is PURELY a philosophical issue.
What world do you live in, seriously?
Smoking is a PHYSICAL choice. You are CHOOSING to INGEST DRUGS. A LOT of them.. and none of them good for you.
You wouldn't voluntarily go pick up the heroin needles lying in a back alley where drugs were being injected, would you?
Why would you expose a computer tech to toxic chemicals?
You think just because the packaging is neater and it's not as socially taboo that it's okay?
Are you by chance a smoker? I bet you are.
]]>@sqlrob: They can't disclaim against smokers, not officially.
Every heard of "discrimination"? If they ever actually put that in the TOS agreement, they would get sued by so many people, it's not even funny.
This is why they've made it vague. As soloudinhere has said, you caused it.. they're not obligated.. and I agree. I take the same stance on ANY computer in that state.
I've got absolutely NO sympathy for someone who smoked near their gear and that has destroyed it or someone who smokes, period.
The way I see it.. if you KNOWINGLY ingest THAT many biohazardous chemicals into your body, you deserve anything you get out of that.
]]>@ShiningSquirrel: "So you execpt the average user to open thier laptop, take it apart and clean it before bringing it in?
But that voids the warrenty, oh, wait, WHAT warrenty?"
The solution is simple. Smoke outside. Stop contaminating your electronics. Why should I, as a tech, work a a dirty, filty, grime-encrusted computer that the customer is either too lazy to attach the proper value to, or just doesn't care? Why should I care? Fix it yourself.
You understand NOW?
]]>@ubermex:
It's also not apples responsibility to clean biohazardous material from a pc damaged by neglect.(Read: Smoking)
@attackgypsy: It wont, if apple is smart... which I seriously doubt, but... it seems like they're using common sense in THIS case. (Which is, by the way, a first.)
]]>@Covertghost: "Not wanting to fix it because it's gross and falsely labeling it a biohazard are two different things though =P."
There's nothing false about labelling it a biohazard.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, smoking has.. how many chemicals in it? That includes arsenic, rat poison, tar and numerous others. I'd say that's a pretty clear candidate for the label of "Biohazard", wouldn't you?
I would hope so.
]]>@statgrad: "Sooo I'm guessing some tech's look for any excuse to not work? ...OOoor, apple hires anti-smoking liberals who hate freedom. heh.
So we've narrowed it down to (i) Apple tech folks are lazy, (ii) Apple tech folks are liberal and hate freedom, or (iii) sticky gunk from cigarette smoke might actually damage a computer and this legitimately voids the warranty."
Oh! I know this one.. the correct answer is number 3, right?! Right?
Right.
(I'm a trained pc tech myself.. I have the same complaints about a smokers computer whether it be PC or mac. Doesn't matter. Gunky and yucky. If the owner is a smoker, I refuse to service because it's simply too much work for what I'm getting paid.)
Goodnight! :-D
]]>@samurailynn: "No, it sounds like they're saying cigarette smoke residue is a biohazard and they won't require they're employees to repair a computer contaminated with biohazardous material."
Good on them for it. I 100% agree with them... not that you'd ever catch me dead using a mac anyways. *Laughs*
]]>For the first time... ever.. I agree with Mac.
Smoking is hazardous and I would NOT want to touch a filty computer brought in by a drug addict (Smoking IS a drug addiction, face it.) and then risk having to touch that filth. Do you have any idea just gow many chemicals are in cigarette smoke? Tons.
Combining the two things I loathe, smoking and macs makes for a great article full of laughs for me.
Kudos to Mac for not enabling a drug addiction!
And in case anyone decides to call me a troll, or try to report me for breaking the rules here.. good luck. I'm not blaming the consumer anywhere in my post, nor am I being a troll (I know some of you will disagree, but the intelligent ones will see the point I'm trying to make)
If you want to "contaminate" your electronics, be my guest, but I think Apple is absolutely in the right in reserving the right to not work in biohazardous conditions.
And in case any of you are quick to rush to conclusions and judgement (and face it, a lot of you are, myself included), I am NOT a smoker, nor will I ever make a choice THAT stupid.
Have a good night!
]]>This is common sense. Apple did the right thing in this case (for once).
]]>Just sue them. You don't have to put up with that stupidity.
]]>That aside, Apple should honor its warranty and fix the dammed computer, or specifically list smoking as a cause for not repairing.
]]>So we've narrowed it down to (i) Apple tech folks are lazy, (ii) Apple tech folks are liberal and hate freedom, or (iii) sticky gunk from cigarette smoke might actually damage a computer and this legitimately voids the warranty.
]]>Two thoughts. First, if Apple is concerned about OSHA HAZMAT substances, computers are full of hazardous materials far more dangerous than nicotine.
Second, if true, the complainants need to file complaints with their state Attorney Generals office for warranty fraud. They may also be able to file in small claims court, as well.
]]>Good pictures too. I wish i had some around from when I did this kind of work to show right now. The amount of buildup that is possible is truly shocking.
]]>I have a friend who is allergic to cigarette smoke. On several occasions, he has received machines that were permeated with cigarette ash and residue that he could not work on because they literally made him sick. Noone else, including smokers, would work on them because they were so disgusting.
We're not talking about just smoke-smell and some staining at the air intakes.. that's the "normal" damage to your computer caused by smoking. We're talking about an amount of residue that destroys computers and makes them unfit to work on by technicians. The same goes for a computer covered in vomit or bodily fluids. We don't work on those either.
I once worked on a computer that had a little bit of blood on it, but I certainly could have voided the wty and refused it for that (girl was super drunk, fell unconscious on her laptop, smashed face against keyboard, cutting her face, causing blood to drip into kb, requiring new kb.)
]]>Until someone decides to sue. Then this all might go away.
]]>@secret_curse: Should be wearing gloves. I always do whenever I work on someone's system
]]>Yes, the hazard to the tech could be avoided with a set of nitrile gloves and a respirator. The hazard to the computer, on the other hand, isn't so easy. Plating every surface inside a computer with goo (which may be conductive) and the dust that sticks to the goo (which causes overheating) is not a good thing. I'd certainly list that under "abuse and neglect". The big problem, from Apple's point of view is that cleaning that computer, before they can even start diagnosing and repairing it, is a multi-hour job. You need to tear everything down (that stuff gets in EVERYWHERE) and go at it with swabs and solvents. So a job ... say, a keyboard swap ... that might take 15 minutes in normal circumstances suddenly becomes a four hour job. Apple prices their warranties on the assumption that they will do, on average, X amount of work per buyer. Abused computers -- whether the contaminant is smoke residue or Pepsi residue -- throw that estimate way off. People who take proper care of their computers would resent having to pay for those who dump Pepsi all over them ... or coat them in smoke goo.
A few other odds and ends:
Hard drive platters are usually sealed, yes, but their electronics aren't. That goo can short, corrode, or otherwise mess up those circuits and cause failure. (so can Pepsi and other things that should never be introduced into computers)
OSHA has standards for all sorts of things.
Peroxide, for instance: The diluted form you buy in the drugstore can be used as an antiseptic. The concentrated form you buy from chemical supply companies can be used as rocket fuel. As a monopropellant. Peroxide torpedo propellant is believed to be the cause of the explosion that sank the Soviet nuclear submarine Kursk. It's also one hell of an oxidizer.
Isopropyl alcohol is another good example. It's toxic if you drink it. It's highly flammable. It can react with other chemicals. The fumes are a nasty irritant. I'd have to check with a CIH, but I'm fairly sure that breathing them for more than a brief period goes beyond 'irritant'. Just because you can buy some in little bottles at Wal-Mart doesn't mean it isn't a hazard when you have 55-gallon drums of the pure version stacked up in your factory.
Chlorine. Read the warnings on a box of chlorine pool shock some time. Don't touch it, breathe it, be in the same ecosystem with it, etc. Chlorine gas is lethal. Chlorine is another strong oxidizer, and reacts with just about everything. Damn straight OSHA lists it as a hazardous substance, because it most emphatically is.
In a lot of cases, it's all about concentration and explosure. Sound isn't a bad thing, right? We hear stuff all the time. But when you're listening to a jackhammer you're using, and you're listening to it for 8 hours a day, you can go deaf. So there are exposure limits for sound, based on decibel level and exposure time, and standards for protective equipment (read: earplugs) to mitigate the hazard.
Or oxygen. You need it to live, but too much of it will kill you. Liquid oxygen can be fun to play with if you want to not just light your BBQ grill but remove it from this plane of existence (google for remarkable pics).
There's also the question of whether what Ruth looked up was in fact a list of available MSDS sheets (yes, I know that's redundant, like PIN number). There's a MSDS for basically everything. Water, for example. Why would you need an MSDS for water? Because it lists things it shouldn't be stored with or exposed to. Alkali metals, for instance. Water + Sodium is all sorts of fun, if you like that kind of thing.
As for nicotine ... the lethal dose in humans is approximately 0.5-1.0 mg/kg, and it is readily absorbed through the skin. So going with the high end of that, a 150-pound tech could be killed by 68 mg of the stuff. Possibly as little as half of that. For those of you uncomfortable with the metric system, there are 28,000 milligrams to an ounce; you do the math. Is someone going to absorb enough nicotine from working on a goo-coated computer to kill them? Doubtful. Absorbing enough to make them sick, on the other hand, is very possible. Google "green tobacco sickness".
So yeah, there could be an impressive layer of crud (I once had to wait for someone to, among other things, scrape the crud off apartment windows with a razor blade before I could move in). It could make the tech sick. Probably more important to Apple, it could make a repair time go way over its time budget. The fact that it's a foreign substance and a contaminant inside the computer (just like a can of Pepsi) almost certainly brings it under the "abuse and neglect" part of the service plan.
So, in short, Apple doesn't have to fix it, just like they wouldn't fix a computer that got flooded with soda.
]]>I think Apple machine must suck. I've smoked alot and have never had a Microsoft computer fail or be filled with muck EVER.
Thanks for the post I was considering an apple but if their customers don't matter I won't be one of them. Yes I have been inside all of my computer.
Way to further cement your hipster douche bag image Apple.
]]>@temporaryerror: Actually, everything is toxic in high enough doses. Nicotine happens to have a relatively low dose at which it's toxic.
]]>Either the original complainants are fudging some of the facts (that there's a LOT more smoking going on than what they're telling us) or Apple are being a bunch of pretentious douches.
]]>I bought a refurbished monitor for my brother for Christmas many years ago. The only thing refurbished about it was that it was shipped in a new, plain cardboard box. The monitor itself had apparently seen many years service in the home of a heavy smoker. Sony monitors at the time were all produced with beige plastic, but this thing was caramel-colored.
So...Apple's policy seems equal parts BS, OSHA-related, and genuine hardware abuse. I'd be tempted to take the same approach if I were in their shoes.
Now...whose attorney general do I approach regarding the condition of 'refurbished' hardware?
]]>However, smoking is perfectly legal as far as I'm aware in your own home... unless you Americans have gone that big brother already.
If the documentation does not specifically state smoking around it violates the machines warranty then Apple needs to send a tech out, put some gloves on and get busy with the fizzy.
What next "Sorry, can't repair that, you own a cat and it could be an alergen".
]]>#2 - I got a macbook from a former user that smoked. For almost a year it would make me nauseous, really nauseous, if I ever used it long enough for it to get warm and start to REALLY SMELL. I wiped it with alcohol wipes over and over again, vacuumed it, etc. but really it just took time.
So, I understand, but they are going to need to update the verbiage for their contracts.
]]>sounds like a design flaw to me. if air isnt supposed to get in there they should figure out another way to cool it.
]]>Apple did bad?
How dare they, now we can't critize PC because Apple is the same.
Oh, that is right, Apple is worse than PC. Anybody remember the finger pointing between Apple and Adobe?
]]>(not my pic, just found it on google images.)
]]>on some computers the hard drive will fail and the breather hole will be covered in dust and sticky gunk, especially when a case fan blows on the hard drive.
smoking kills living things and it also kills computers
but apple should still fix it as they did not list anything about smoking in their warranty.
]]>While I'm sympathetic to the rights for smokers to have the choice and freedom to do so, that right doesn't extend to subjecting a nonsmoker to their toxic results. My advice would be to try and find a local certified repair shop that may not mind working on such a machine and not raise a concern.
Another thing to consider here that is that a dust/smoke/tar combo is not simply dust and does contain toxic and corrosive chemicals and also does manifest in a different physical form, becoming a coated, gooey substance on the electrical components that often can reduce their lifespan significantly.
Here is the relevant part of Apple's standard warranty:
"This warranty does not apply: (a) to consumable parts, such as batteries, unless damage has occurred due to
a defect in materials or workmanship; (b) to cosmetic damage, including but not limited to scratches, dents
and broken plastic on ports; (c) to damage caused by use with non-Apple products; (d) to damage caused
by accident, abuse, misuse, flood, fire, earthquake or other external causes;"
Cigarette smoke/tar would fall under damage caused by other external causes, essentially.
]]>However, IANAL, and I don't know if since Apple didn't list this specifically in the contract if they can use this as a defense or not, but the insides of smokers' computers being declared a biohazardous waste zone? I can get behind that.
(TBH, I don't care if you smoke or not when I'm working on your computer -- I always wear gloves, anyway. However, smokers -- smoke outside or something. :p )
]]>Normally, most everything Apple does strikes me as anticompetitive and evil. This, however, I wholeheartedly applaud. That stuff is the most disgusting thing I ever encountered working IT.
]]>Applecare terms and conditions: (PDF)
1. Repair Coverage
...
b. Limitations. The Plan does not cover:
...
(ii) Damage to the Covered Equipment caused by accident, abuse, neglect, misuse (including faulty installation, repair, or maintenance by anyone other than Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider), unauthorized modification, extreme environment (including extreme temperature or humidity), extreme physical or electrical stress or interference, fluctuation or surges of electrical power, lightning, static electricity, fire, acts of God or other external causes;
Any of the terms I bolded could easily be used to deny this repair.
]]>You wouldn't believe the tar and smoke crap I cleaned out of my typewriter to get it into working condition again.
]]>- Overheat the components
- Are mildly conductive and short out items
- Are ridiculously gross
Considering that overheating components and shorting out components are the biggest causes of failure for most things, I can see why they would refuse repairing a device that, quite literally, was destroyed by the user's own actions.
]]>the service center where I work now may be more liberal with applecare, but in the case of a smoke damaged computer, the tech's kindness may be heavily dependent on how nice you are when you bring the computer in, since working on that and fudging the paperwork for you is entirely at their discretion.
]]>/not a smoker
//still think Apple denying this is bogus
IIRC the numbers from my psychopharmacology course, LD/ED is around 3-4. FDA doesn't like anything less than 10.
]]>The warranty wouldn't need to be listed in the EULA, it would likely be in a separate hard copy warranty contract that you get when you buy the computer.
]]>Nicotine is extremely toxic with an LD50 of between .5 and 1 mg/kg in humans (far lower than cocaine). That having been said, it's virtually impossible to actually absorb that much nicotine through smoking alone.
]]>Were they really promoted as healthier? As a non-smoker I was always under the impression that it was more about flavor.
]]>What if I just use a better filter?
]]>@wrjohnston91283: i cant read it. i dont have a computer.
]]>I also learned to put on the disposable nitrile gloves I used for working on printers. I learned the hard way that cigarette filth doesn't wash off easily. Seriously, I would've rather dealt with a cat having taken a dump in their computer than the sticky smoke residue.
]]>If they had to explicitly name every possible instance of user damage, the warranty would be about 10,000 pages long. The short version: if YOU caused the problem, it ain't covered.
]]>I know I might be jumping the gun on this, and I suggest going through every other possible channel before hand, but..
..Small claims?
I understand that smoking can cause gunk build-up, but where in the Applecare warranty package does it say that it voids the warranty?
I think a judge would have a differing opinion than Apple when it comes to warranty obligations.
]]>Here are all of apple's EULAs for you:
]]>That said, I think in the case of the original article above, that rotely labeling those computers as biohazards is silly and over-reactionary. I would agree with the person who suggested that the techs who sent them back were just looking for an excuse either not to work or not to fulfill warranties.
]]>@all4jcvette: If you've never seen a machine so clogged with tar from smokers that the heatsink is full of crud and fans aren't working properly, I don't believe you spent any time in a repair center. Any tech that has had to open more than a couple hundred computers will have seen at least one machine that's been caked with tar that won't blow out with standard dust cleaner.
]]>I think this is a completely legitimate ground on which to refuse service -- it's just that this is clearly a policy or known issue in Apple's warranty department, and as such it should be disclosed when you sign up for service.
]]>@all4jcvette: Well, if it's an iMac, how much does it travel? Chances are, if you can tell it's been around smokers, it's in a smoking home.
]]>@PsiCop: I once saw the insides of an IBM Model 55 that had spent 20 years in an unheated / un-air conditioned sawmill in South Carolina, running a CNC milling machine. They had called a technician becuase the Model 1814 monitor had died. Once the monitor was pulled out of the custom housing the cause of death was easily identified. There was a layer of sawdust 1/2 inch thick coating everything. The technician also performed a bit of preventative maintenance by also removing the 1/2 of sawdust from the inside of the PC. I wonder what the Apple techs would have said about that....
]]>@Covertghost: Biohazard is definitely a stretch, but you can definitely get sick from touching the gunky tar buildup. It can still have nicotine in it which will give you a pretty bad headache and the shakes if you're a non smoker, ruining the rest of your day. I think it's fair for Apple (or any electronics company) to say their employees don't have to deal with that.
]]>Have you ever worked on a computer that had a sticky mess on it? It's much different than a computer full of dust bunnies. The stuff doesn't come off.
]]>You've apparently been very lucky not to encounter one. The worst one I've seen was so far of tar/dust that ALL 4 Case fans, the GPU, and CPU fans were stopped because of it. There was a layer of the muck over the interior with the exception of the top of the case a little over an inch deep (No exaggeration) throughout the case.
I've seen a few just about as bad as that as well.
Since compressed gas won't work on the stuff you can try using a piece of plastic to remove it but it kicks up residue into the air. I think it's fairly safe to assume the residue is dangerous to an extent. In any case, Apple was well within its rights to void the warranty and it was indeed the right thing to do if the muck was that built up in the Mac.
]]>You're probably seeing dust mixed with tar - just as bad, but builds up faster than just tar. I worked at restaurant where the office was next to a grill - no fryer, just a grill. Anything was wasn't cleaned daily eventially got a nice layer of gunk on it. The inside of her computer looked just like what I think you're describing.
Apple's in a tough spot here, since in order to work on the machine the tech is going to have to carefully scrub this stuff off the parts. Warranty doesn't cover cleaning. I don't agree with them claiming it's a biohazard, but they shouldn't have to clean a layer of grim off of the parts. Dust is one thing, as that can be airblasted away, but i don't think it's unreasonable of them to say "sorry, your machine is filthy and we don't cover that"
]]>They tried to use it to deny fixing my wife's TiBook's keyboard, saying they didn't cover smoking. Well, she has smoke induced asthma...not just mild, but bad enough it could put her in the hospital if she puffed. Even though I could see no smoke damage, I almost had to pull her medical record to prove it before they quit their bitching.
]]>Spell out the smoking exclusion very obnoxiously clearly before the customer buys the computer AND the warranty.
This is a crappy business practice. Just grab the hard drive and give them a refurb.
]]>So I've been an IT guy for almost 20 years, build most of my own machines, and have never smoked a day in my life. I used to work, a long time ago, and an HP, Dell, and Apple repair center. I'd really like to know what kind of "Test" they do to determine it was in a smokers house? If it's a sniff test, or some kind of chemical wipe, you can get that from just about anywhere you travel. Sound like both of these people need to file a complaint with the State AG's office, and file a small claims suit in small claims court.
]]>I consider physically disinfecting a computer part of the job. I like giving the computer back to the owner in as pristine a condition as possible.
]]>@magic8ball: I would guess that in powdered form it's a fine particulate, i.e: inhalation hazard. Long term exposure could cause silicosis or similar conditions that inhibit lung function.
]]>The absolute worst system I ever worked on was from local Garage, it was full all sorts of dust as it was in the shop next to their brake station. (Yum! ASBESTOS!) I replaced the components that had fans with silent versions using passive cooling. The only weak spot was the PSU, at the time it was hard finding a quality one without a fan, but we settled on one with a massive fan that would hold up better against the dust. It's been stable since then as far as I know.
As for Apple voiding the warranty for this issue, I do understand why they would do it, and I'd guess they have a policy in place where an employee can refuse to work on such a machine without repercussion, otherwise if the warranty (extended or otherwise) was void I'm sure they would fix it for a fee.
]]>@ubermex: You are right. When an OSHA rule applies that just means you use the proper safety equipment or procedures, not that you just don't do the task at hand.
If the nicotine, or whatever, is that bad get the Apple tech a respirator and a pair of nitrile gloves. Problem solved.
]]>My neighbor complained their computer kept crashing so I went over to fix it. I saw that their CPU was running very hot so opened up the case to look at the fan.
The heatsink was one massive ball of caked on tar. I couldn't even scrape it off. Had to buy a whole new fan. Disgusting.
]]>I think the former owner of my house was a smoker or someone was, and even after 7 years I'm STILL cleaning orange crap off everything.
]]>@craptastico: now it's possible a tar buildup ruined the fan, but they don't say that so i dont know that we can assume it
]]>@smiling1809: it doesnt say the smoke caused the damage. he says the fan failed causing it to overheat. they just refused to work on the computer because it has been "contaminated"
]]>@eskimo81:
Agreed, That stuff is almost impossible to get rid of and you risk damaging the components even attempting to do so in some cases because you can't simply use dust-off on it.
Without seeing actual pictures of the machine in question it's hard for the OP to make an argument saying he's been wronged but from experience I'd say Apple had EVERY RIGHT to void the warranty.
]]>Hmmmm...so if I smoke a cig, then write a check to pay them for a computer - would they not accept my check?
]]>if it wasnt in the EULA that they couldnt agree to before they bought the computer, i dont think that apple is right on this one.
]]>My understanding is that nicotine is not really the cancer causing part of cigarettes. It's all the other crap. Nicotine gets you kinda high, makes your brain work faster, and is addictive, but not really hazardous on it's own.
]]>@NICU:
So you execpt the average user to open thier laptop, take it apart and clean it before bringing it in?
But that voids the warrenty, oh, wait, WHAT warrenty?
At least, that's how the AppleCare contract reads. Apple would have you believe that evidence of damage voids the warranty, but that is not the case unless they can prove your acts caused the damage to the component(s) you are seeking a warranty repair on.
]]>@lehrdude: If this is a joke, lolz.
If serious, no, light cigarettes are just a gimmicky branding to make them sound healthier.
And while they do contain less nicotine, they contain the same chemicals that other cigarettes do.
]]>No, I would say that smoking around the computer would be classified under "neglect and misuse'. I have worked on plenty of cigarette-stained computers, and its disgusting. It all comes down to the tech working on it if they want to do it. I have passed some filthy ones to other techs, and vise-versa. They do have computer vacuums to clean stuff up also.
Maybe Apple needs to put some chemical or odor sensors inside the computers and have it display a message or auto shutoff if it 'senses' too much second-hand smoke.
]]>I cannot tell you how many times I've cleaned out peoples computers. The smokers computers are never much different (inside) than non-smokers.
Most of their current systems do a poor job of ventilation (excluding the Mac Pro). To try and pawn the situation off on their customers is horrible.
The Jordan Creek Apple Store is about two miles from where I sit typing this. The only time I've had a good experience there is when I say that I'm "just browsing" and don't intend to buy anything. It's a sad situation when the retail staff is so bad that you go to another retailer to buy a Mac. All of that being said, I'm not surprised in the least that they would pull this type of b.s.
]]>@coan_net: Not wanting to fix it because it's gross and falsely labeling it a biohazard are two different things though =P.
]]>Thus, if I drop my computer and break the trackpad, the screen is still covered if it dies independently of that drop (i.e. several months later). Alternatively, if, as happened to me, something breaks on the computer (which Apple didn't fix right), the I drop the laptop and dent the case, the first thing is covered by the warranty, but the dented case is not.
The only provision of the AppleCare contract that provides for cancellation of the warranty requires Apple to refund the cost of the AppleCare on a pro-rata basis minus the cost of any repairs previous done under AppleCare. Without Apple paying, they cannot void the AppleCare warranty in its entirety without being in breach of the contract.
Since it's Apple that is saying that smoking caused the damage to the computer, they are the ones who have to prove it.
I suggest the OPs take this to their local small claims court. FWIW, I won $830 from Apple using this very argument. I would be happy to forward them a copy of my written complaint to the Court which sets down my argument regarding the contract. The Court/arbitrator ignored my (beautifully written) complaint because written complaints/motions are not allowed in Small Claims in New York, but it is a good summary of my argument regarding Apple's "voiding" of AppleCare.
]]>I, too, have had to clean smoker's computers and it is a complete mess. Clearly, we cannot expect Apple to lay this all out in the warranty. I don't think I'd get very far if I expected Apple to repair my laptop after I urinated all over it (even though this exact wording doesn't exist in the warranty).
I don't want to seem like I'm bashing the consumer, but this is exactly why I refuse to buy electronic equipment second-hand from smokers. The smoke causes nothing but problems. Look, we all have our vices, but everyone needs to do themselves a favor and protect their investments. Especially if it's a $3k computer (holy cow that's a lot of dough for a computer...)
]]>The solution is simple: don't smoke.
]]>If Applecare does not list "second-hand smoke" as a reason for voiding the warranty then I suggest these people take it up with their State's Attorney General and their local news station. Both are very easy to get to.
]]>If you're irrational enough to buy a Mac, you should be irrational enough to accept their argument here.
]]>It coats every surface (especially near the fan) with an almost fluorescent, translucent orange resin that absolutely REEKS of ashtray. The smell is beside the point, but smoking near computers with fans will results in a lot of residue all over the inside.
In can (and does) gum things up (like fans), coats optical sensors, etc. Bad news.
]]>Secondhand smoke makes your Xbox RROD!
Secondhand smoke causes global warming!
Secondhand smoke broke up the Beatles!
Secondhand smoke canceled Firefly!
You can blame secondhand smoke for everything!
]]>When I worked as a bench tech for a electronics manufacturer, I would routinely deny warranty if and when the customer allowed a foreign substance to get inside a piece of equipment. Yes, cigarette residue is a foreign substance.
]]>Now, that said, I do think it would make sense for Apple to have language in their warranty to the effect that excessive dirt or dust or other material arising from airborne dirt or smoke or other contaminants can, at their discretion, void the warranty.
I've seen (and worked on) computers that have been completely gross because of the environment in which they're used. But I do think the customer should be warned, in plain language, about the potential for a warranty to be voided as a result of that sort of exposure.
]]>
The Plan does not cover:
...
Damage due to accident, abuse, neglect, misuse (including faulty installation, repair, or
maintenance by anyone other than Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider),
unauthorized modification, improper environment (including lack of proper
temperature or humidity), unusual physical or electrical stress or interference, failure or
fluctuation of electrical power, lightning, static electricity, fire, or acts of God;
They're declaring smoking to the point where they can tell by simply opening the computer an improper environment.
]]>And if that happened, it shouldn't be covered under warranty.
]]>Having said that smokers computers are the worst thing I have ever had to work on.
]]>If you smoke Light Cigarettes, is there less dust on the computer than smoking Full-Flavored Cigarettes??
]]>If only companies were as creative about trying to help customers rather than ripping them off.
]]>This first photo is the bottom cover of a lenovo after removing the systemboard, you can see where the smoke traveled around the system. Smoke pretty much cover the systemboard.
This second photo (sorry slightly blurry) shows a fan covered in tar from a smoker. They were having overheating issues because the fan wasn't spinning.
]]>Screw anyone who smokes around a computer.
]]>@bwildrick: Cat in the iMac, eh?
]]>Why should they have to repair things that are broken because of the consumer unless the bought a warranty that specifically covers consumer damage, and smoke/tar damage is specifically listed?
]]>@CompyPaq: You are right. People are in denial about what smoke does to things. One of the apartments where we lived had completely darkened yellow blinds b/c the occupants were smokers. They finally moved out. Also, the lady downstairs moved out b/c the previous occupants were smokers (Thank God they left b/c our apartment smelled like THEIR smoke) and the smell was so bad despite the walls being primed and repainted and new carpet being installed.
Smoke reaks havoc on people and things.
]]>I guess a voided warranty is a voided warranty though, and that's assuming the drive internals are the problem, not the external controller board, or the system's drive controller. (though the internals are more likely, in my experience with non-smoking computers)
]]>@pecan 3.14159265: These are not standards for the Apple workplace, is what I meant to say. They're set for all workplaces in which contact with certain listed substances is not normal. For instance, hydrogen peroxide would be normal at a hospital, but not so much at a coffee shop.
]]>I think Ruth is oversimplifying OSHA's standards. She lists several things which are perfectly safe in some ways, and incredibly dangerous in others. Hydrogen peroxide, for example, is used to clean wounds - that's true. However, it can be dangerous if it is consumed or gets into your eyes. Diluted, it can look colorless, so it could even look like water. Also, it can irritate and damge the skin.
Talc is used in talcum powder, but in certain concentrations, can be harmful to one's health. Isopropyl alcohol is extremely flammable, and is dangerous if injested, inhaled, or absorbed through the skin.
These aren't OSHA standards for the workplace, these are standards set for all workplaces. Even if you don't ever intend to encounter a puddle of hydrogen peroxide near a computer, it applies.
]]>As for smoke residue being a bio-hazard ... that would be funny, if not for the fact that Apple won't honor the warranty it sold Ruth.
]]>I agree that the health hazard may be a bit overstated but from the sounds of it there was tar visibly present on the internal components. Second hand smoke probably didn't cause the problems, the buildup of sticky, nasty tar could have. This is not Apple's fault and they shouldn't have to pay to fix it.
]]>Excessive smoke can damage components, and I hate to say it, but I can empathize with a tech who doesn't want to work on a disgusting, smoked-up computer. I think a lot of smokers don't realize how quickly and permanently that residue can build up. And it's really gross!
]]>Furthermore, some of the components of cigarette smoke are conductive, so there's every chance that along with heat damage, electrical shorts could lead to the early demise of the computer.
Yes, this should probably be mentioned in the warranty more specifically, but i'm sure it's covered under environmental damage legally speaking.
]]>None of the Dell servers that I only cleaned once every other year got nasty inside. The only thing that ever got 'nasty' was the nice coating of tar on the OUTSIDE, which came right off with windex on a paper towel.
soooo these people had to be blowing the smoke right into the vents of the computer, smoking 4 packs a day, or something...cause this just doesn't jive with my finding.
]]>Also, so people can't say I didn't work there and I have no clue what the hell I say, all of the apple techs are NOT apple employees. They are employed by Flextronics, so really no one cares.
]]>Sounds like corporate is trying to reduce their warranty overhead...at the expense of their customers that have habits they don't philosophically side with. I state this with a fairly broad depth of experience...the systems did not fail due to smoke damage from secondhand smoke. Absurdly poor ventilation design would be the root cause...
]]>They are always EXTREMELY dirty and smell, even with my bad nose I can tell.
The dirt is not a light dust thats more common with pet owners, its a heavy sticky dust that sometimes even an air compressor has a hard time getting rid of. It makes complete sense and I support Apple on this policy. Smokers computers are GROSS...
]]>I opened up the case, and it looked like sticky-poop looking muck all over the PC - on top of the processor heat sink (just under the fan) was a layer of this muck. It's like smoke in a solid form. Canned air would not even dint this muck - a screwdriver was about the only thing to work. It finally started to make me sick that I told her it was fried and she needed a new PC - it was beyond fixable.
I would guess the computers in the story was not this bad, but I can see the point of people not wanted to work on them... I will most likely never work on my sister's computer again.
]]>Sooo I'm guessing some tech's look for any excuse to not work?
...OOoor, apple hires anti-smoking liberals who hate freedom. heh.
]]>Dennis: I swallowed some apple seeds today.
Mac: Did you try throwing up?
Dennis: I tried, but I couldn't.
Mac: Smoke some cigarettes. The smoke will suffocate the bacteria in your stomach.
[That's the first thing I thought of when I saw the image with the article.]
]]>![[i47.tinypic.com]](http://i47.tinypic.com/30wkt2t.jpg){kind=link}
![[i50.tinypic.com]](http://i50.tinypic.com/105v9jo.jpg){kind=link}