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Chumas

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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Lots of gnashing of teeth with this discussion on slashdot.
Personally, I feel MS went too far with the banning, as there is a fair percentage of people who bought their console used and had no idea it was modded. Buyer beware indeed, eh?

Also, of no small merit, is the fact that when an Xbox is banned off the network certain offline systems do not fuction anymore. Hence part of the lawsuit pertains to this \"partial-bricking\" of modded consoles with reduced functionality, especially in those cases where a part had failed and was replaced without paying the exhorbitant fee MS wants, such as a dvd drive.

10 replies

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Chuck Norris' wig

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

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@Chumas: There is zero chance that someone didn't know their machine was modded because it costs money to do it and whoever was selling it would go out of their way to mention that it was chipped or whatever they call it because it's a selling feature that increases value in their eyes.

If your house just had all new wiring put in it, you would play that up when trying to sell it.

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bohemian

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Chumas: This is really at the core of my problem with what Microsoft did. They determined that owners of an xbox could not open their consoles or have anyone but Microsoft do any repairs and at a grossly inflated price. Can you imagine the outrage if some company tried to do this with computers? Telling someone they can't repair or replace their own hardware is excessive and sounds like possibly an illegal business practice. What if Chevy said you could only get your vehicle serviced with them at 10x the going rate?

Microsoft took many benign actions and lumped them in with the one mod that would allow pirated games. Then banned everyone.

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Siegeman

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@bohemian: \"Telling someone they can't repair or replace their own hardware is excessive and sounds like possibly an illegal business practice.\"

Isn't there a company that already does that? I believe it starts with an A and ends with a pple...

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liquidnumb

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Siegeman: In that case they just wont fix yours. Does Apple also break your Macbook if you put in a new hard drive?

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Joeb5

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Siegeman:
apple is not that evil they say it's ok to upgrade the ram in the mini but they don't make it super easy like all other pc systems.

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Joeb5

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@bohemian:
they tryed to ban place like jiffy lube and then the law sad you can't do that.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@bohemian: You mean like Dell does?

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y2julio

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@bohemian: That is not why they got banned. They got banned for having systems that were modified to ban pirated games.

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Herbz

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@y2julio:
Not exactly. Many people were banned who did NOT have systems that could play so-called \"pirated\" games. Many were banned because they modified the hardware of the system itself, i.e.different hard drive, different cooling system. Anything that was detectable to not be the same as the system they sold you was taken as \"modding\" and they banned the console for it.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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I wasn't banned and I replaced the DVD drive in my xbox last year. I think alot of people just dont want to admit they have been cheating, but if you play a game like Modern Warfare you can tell, there are alot of cheaters out there.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Projectneo: No, you did mod your machine according to Microsoft, you just didn't get caught, and you're blaming the people who did the same thing you did but weren't as lucky as you.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Herbz: So? Again this is a case of someone doing something they knew was against the ToU / ToS for Xbox Live and then whining when they were caught.

If it's not 100% genuine, it should be banned. If Microsoft were to try and decide which modifications were \"ok\" and which weren't, it's just a slippery slope.

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XTC46

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Chumas: Not being able to open a consumer electronic without voiding the warranty is standard practice. Computers are different becasue so many people have the ability to make the repairs without trouble, but you cant open your DVD player, your TV, your Blender, etc without voiding a warranty.

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Joeb5

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@xtc46 - thinksmarter on twitter:
the system are out of warranty so if you your dvd went bad would you pay $170 for m$ to fix it or more like $50 to fix it on your own?

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@xtc46 - thinksmarter on twitter: You cant' open your computer w/out voiding the warranty either.

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AnthonyC

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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Look up the Magnuson-Moss warranty act. 3rd-party parts you add aren't covered by your warranty, but the warranty must remain valid for all OEM parts unless the company that sold the warranty can prove it was the 3rd-party part that caused the OEM part to fail.

So yes, you can, even if the company you buy from tells you otherwise.

This, however, is not a warranty problem; it is a company actively damaging customers' ability to use their equipment. I understand cutting off multiplayer for consoles that might be modded to cheat, but preventing players from accessing saved files and backed-up games, and preventing them from installing games on a hard drive (even if it is the original hard drive) with no recourse for demonstrating that their machines are not modded to play pirated games, is unethical at the very least.

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huadpe

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@xtc46 - thinksmarter on twitter: This isn't a warranty voiding, this is MS going in and deliberately breaking your machine if they detect third party parts.

Adding your own after market mods to your car does not give GM the right to come in afterwords and screw with the engine without your consent.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@huadpe: Wrong. Microsoft banned people that were trying to play games before they were released. They purposely released a copy of Modern Warfare 2 on Bit Torrent and let people download it. The people that tried playing it on their consoles were generally the ones that were banned. The only way you could do it would be to copy it to DVD, and to have a modded Xbox 360 to play the DVD. That's why they waited until this point to do it. People were caught with their hands in the cookie jar, and are being called out on it. They try and deny it, but they would have been found out otherwise.

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narq

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@ballistic90: Only problem with is that stores broke street date. Those people probably who got the game early were probably banned too. Not exactly fair if your store is the one who broke the rules. There's no rule against playing a game before release if you bought it fairly.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@huadpe: They are not \"breaking your machine\", they are simply denying you Xbox live. You can still play games and watch DVDs and whatnot.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@dragonfire81: a banned system can no longer install games to the harddrive, nor can it install DLC and MCE-Extender is disabled.

What MS did would be like OnStar disabling your car remotely and without your permission. If that were to happen, I'm sure you'd be pretty pissed, right? Also, with cars only the parts which are replaced with third party hardware are voided, not the whole car!

And so you know, it's just just people with flashed drives. Anyone with a 12volt fan mod can and will be banned too. Among with a few other detectable mods made to make the system run cooler, in an effort to prevent the infamous RROD.

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consciousj

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@dragonfire81: Actually, they're disabling the ability to use your savegames, backups or not, and they are disabling the functionality of being able to install games to the hard drive. A larger drive for this purpose is what many people bought their Elites for, and are left with a useless piece of equipment. This also puts the majority of the wear and tear on the DVD drive, which then has a larger proclivity to break down. Being banned from a network shouldn't mean parts of your physical device don't function whatsoever - that's a cash grab.

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liquidnumb

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@consciousj: I've been told by an owner that it also breaks your windows media center connectivity. If you put in a new hard drive so you could keep all your HD content on your 360, you're out of luck.

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thebigbluecheez

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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Do we have any hard numbers for how many xboxen were banned? The linked class-action lawsuit says tens of thousands of boxen, but the linked Consumerist article says 1 million users.

4 replies

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Preyfar

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@thebigbluecheez: Microsoft has said it was /NOT/ a million 360s that were banned, but will not give the actual number. So there really isn't any statistics.

Frankly, I find the million figure sort of speculation, and very high at that.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Preyfar: D'oh, near-simultaneous posts with the same essential info. Wasn't trying to steal your thunder.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@thebigbluecheez: Microsoft recently denied that it was 1M units, but no official numbers have been released or appear to be forthcoming.

Also, I love the term Xboxen, so I hope that was intentional. Either way I'm going to start using it.

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kexline

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Communist Pope: \"Boxen\" is a pretty mature IT term, so I'm sure it was intentional. Moo.

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ximmaculatex

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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whoever had a modded xbox and got banned its their own fault. its against the rules to mod an xbox to play backups of games. its not like microsoft came and broke or took away the xbox they just cant play online big deal should have never modded their xbox

6 replies

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@ximmaculatex: You're completely missing a very significant point. Some systems that were banned weren't modded to play backups of games. Some systems were \"modded\" by users replacing failed parts, like the shitty 20gig drives, with official MS harddrives.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@NikkiSweet: Replacing the DVD or hard drive is still a mod. I don't agree with MS, but, they have stated ANY modification to the console will result in banning.

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Chumas

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@guaporico: as a person who paid a certified MS repair shop to replace my dead HD with a new one, I now have a dead live account console. and I was told to have to sent to this shop BY microsoft.

So go hump a stump.

When you use zero tolerance tactics you'll get sued when you hammer the wrong people.

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Preyfar

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@NikkiSweet: Microsoft has /no way/ to verify if a modded part, as even part of a repair, was to be used to circumvent copy protection, allow cheats, etc. So it's sort of a risk people take.

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LadyTL

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@ximmaculatex: This also ignores the scattered reports of people who got banned and never replaced any parts and had not bought their xboxen used and did not mod their consoles. Intrestingly though these seem to happening to people who don't play multiplayer at all.

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bohemian

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@ximmaculatex: So you have no problem adding this logic to PCs and cars then?

This whole deal with the Xboxes caused us to finally mark them off our list of possible new game consoles for the house.

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XTC46

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@bohemian: On many PCs, you WILL void the manufacturers warranty if you pull parts, or replace them improperly.

On a Car, you CAN void the warranty by taking it to an non-authorized repair shop. On most electronics, the warranty is void if you open the case. This is not new. This is why Dell used to put a sensor that indicated when the case had been opened, so when people decided to open they case, and ended p breaking a part, the tech would know.

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xipander

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@xtc46 - thinksmarter on twitter: ehh... I wouldn't go that far... Dell, just like HP, doesn't pay attention to the warranty voided stickers on computers when one is sent in for warranty repair because they couldn't prove it was broken by a consumer that wasn't certified or a authorized local repair man/shop.

That's standard practice and in the policy at their US and Canadian repair depots

Full disclosure, I worked for HP for 3+ years.

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kayfox

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@xtc46 - thinksmarter on twitter:

The case has to have been opened with power applied.

And its not for warrenty claims, its for physical security.

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Herbz

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@xtc46 - thinksmarter on twitter:

This is not just about the \"warranty\" on the box being void. Several offline features of the box are now not able to be used, as pointed out in the article, these boxes are now \"semi-bricked\".

Its like a car company deciding that because you took out the radio that came with the car that you are no longer able to use the \"cruise\" function. Two totally different things.

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gover57

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Herbz: yes, it may void the warranty, but remember, GM isn't in control of the roads and Dell/HP aren't in control of the internet, so neither can ban you from a \"netwrok\" that they don't control, but microsoft owns Live, so they can ban you from that...

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@xtc46 - thinksmarter on twitter
\"On a Car, you CAN void the warranty by taking it to an non-authorized repair shop.\"
:

Totally and completely wrong. You obviously know nothing about warranty law.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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Whoops, pasted the quote in the wrong place and didn't have preview on. This topic is specifically covered in the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975.

Here's a quick summary for proof: [ezinearticles.com]

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cortana

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@rambo76098: Yes.. dropping the Magnusson-Moss bomb on idiots who try to tell you that you've voided the warranty by opening something is a lot of fun. They usually don't back down until you make them call their legal department.

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Preyfar

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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I see it as merely coincidental timing, really. I think Microsoft banning modded consoles from Live is fine. People can still play their consoles offline and do whatever they want to do, but per the Live subscription agreement, you can not play them online.

I can understand people didn't want to pay the repair fees ($170 on average, if I recall) but Sony has similar fees for similar issues. In the end, Microsoft has always had a stance that modded 360s can't be used online on Live. This is not the first, second or third time has happened, either. It's in their TOS, and while people may disagree with it, that lengthy form that nobody bothers to read covers things just like this.

The lawsuit won't hold up on court for the sheer fact that Microsoft, in the end, will simply say \"Did you read the agreement? Did you see the part about 'no mods'? Yes, then why did you agree to the terms if you didn't agree to bide by them?\"

It's unfortunate for those banned for simple repairs, but if they had compatible, but non-legit parts for repairs then Microsoft has no way to tell which modifications were for repairs, which were for cheating, pirating, etc.

BTW, I am an Xbox 360 modder. I modded mine for cooling and airflow, *NOT* piracy.

4 replies

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November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

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@Preyfar: Preyfar if you are a modder and yes I did mod mine to replace a Failed dvd drive (cost to replace myself 25$. M$ cost. 100+$), then you would know that there is no topic of Modding in their TOS. In fact there IS NO TOS!!!!.

Its not a TOS or a EULA, its a Terms of Use. for XBox Live, and the link/forum post/faq that keeps getting listed is just that.. a site. It was something that I never agreed to upon signing up for xbox live. The grounds that M$ is standing on for their bans are that they have the right to remove service to xbox live for any reason however if they fail to provide cause for this then they must refund any unused service and they are doing just that.

My problem I have with these issues are a few:

1. I know that modding my console voided my warranty. I was out of warranty as It was a 1st gen 360 (Dec of launch year). However MS does not provide me with any REASONABLE alternative to this.

2. the ban is on the console only. Meaning I am told I can take my live account elsewhere or buy a new console.
However they did not want to cancel or refund any time left on my prepaid 1yr sub. (going in time with the ban I was waiting for the MW2 LE console and gonna get that one anyways. yes i finally got my refund for live)

3. The reason they give you for ban I never agree to, even in the TOU. however they have decided to apply this as a very very broad cause for banning ANY console (the words they use are \"NOT LIMITED TO\") giving them power over a consol that I have paid in full, have no intention of using on live (I have two consoles now) and yet still have no access to features that are bought in good faith with the system. and in some cases CRITICAL UPDATES AND PATCHES to games that are released.

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kayfox

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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I think the point of contention is there is a false positive rate, and despite whatever you do to try and avoid it, there always is a false positive rate. And that couple by Microsoft's attitude towards anyone banned (go f*** off or buy a new console) is not helping.

When Nintendo did a similar thing, they replaced any console that got bricked and who's owner called in to complain. This is likely why we dont have dozens of people here bitching about their bricked Wii and do have dozens of people here bitching about their bricked Xbox360.

If they go to court and prove that their console was not modded in a way that can legally void the warrenty (there is a limit to what you can put in the warrenty, IE: you cannot do things like say it needs x brand of cables or power or have to use y brand of batteries in the controllers), and it was banned, then tney may prevail.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Preyfar: I agree it's coincidental. When *isn't* a game company releasing a game?

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@BytheSea: And there are plenty of big hits throughout the year ... sure, MW2 may end up being the biggest of the group, but bored lawyers could find a high-volume game just about whenever they wanted to.

Even if this waste of time does see a courtroom, what's most likely to happen? If Microsoft actually decided to settle, it'd probably just be something like a free month of Gold for affected people. Suits with more merit have come away with less in the past.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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My view on it, the ones who knowingly modded their consoles and got banned deserve it. They decided to mod it and got caught and now wanna bitch and moan. And trust me, just from the people I know (a very large percentage of them being online people) had their systems modded and were banned.

The ones who were only replacing parts and got banned, that Is MS's fault and they should have been more knowledgeable about if the parts were just replaced or not.

Now, the ones who bought a 360 and didn't know it was modded, it's just a classic case of you get what you pay for. I never buy systems (or even electronics in general that may cause a problem like this) from someone i don't know. Example, there's a lot of people complaining that they've bought a banned 360 from someone online and didn't know about it. The risk factor is partially to blame on the buyer. If they're buying it from someone in person, they should at least check if it works (both mechanically and online with live) before they purchase. With the 360 they could simply do a recover gamer tag to test if it'll go online just fine. If they seller refuses to let you do that then it's a flag that it shouldn't be bought. If it's an online purchase through random people (ie: craigslist) then the risk is even higher since you can't test it before hand and that's at the fault of the buyer to take that risk.

I have modded systems (dreamcast, ps2), but those aren't high risk because i never go online with either. My 360 on the other hand isn't modded at all so i have nothing to worry about. Simple logic.

5 replies

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nstonep

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@The Marionette: Not if they \"modded\" it so it doesn't fail with red ring of death (as much).

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@nstonep: which in that case they could send the system to microsoft to get it fixed. If they feel they shouldn't have to do that then they can get any of the other 2 current gen systems that are out instead. If you buy a product from a company and it's failing you, are you going to keep buying it? I wouldn't, I'd go to another brand that'll work better.

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liquidnumb

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@The Marionette: You're right, Microsoft can do no wrong. They can play by whatever rules they want. Everyone got exactly what they deserved, especially those who didn't.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@liquidnumb: I'm sure you glanced right over the part where i saying how it's wrong that ms banned the ones who were only upgrading/replacing parts and focused on the rest. Nice way to read the comments.

@LadyTL: I know, that's why i said that they should've have banned the consoles that were upgrading/replacing parts.

(tip: reading a comment before replying tends to help)

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LadyTL

November 24, 2009 1:26 AM

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You know before snarking that someone didn't read you comment maybe you should read theirs. I was talking about people buying used consoles before the ban when just checking to see if it could go on XBL would be absolutly useless in being able to check for a mod which was your suggestion as well as a few people who got banned even when they went through Microsoft's support for xbox repair or using offical microsoft parts such as hard drive and still got banned. Not about people upgrading or using third party party.

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November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

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@The Marionette: You state about the moded systems and how they dont get online. the deamcast and ps2 were the first of the only consoles so you are right that they run less risk. HOWEVER I can have a console thats moded. NEVER attack or load an xbox live account onto it and only use console profiles and still get banned. Never playing on live and still have the console blocked. This I see a prob with.

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LadyTL

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@The Marionette: Except that the majority of the modded consoles could go online just fine before the bans so if it wasn't readily appearent that it was modded someone might never know. Also their were mod bans for people simply switching to a larger offical MS harddrive for their xbox.

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Lost_Intelligence

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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Was the banning timed with the major release of Modern Warfare 2? I would assume it was as I'm willing to bet it was the pirated versions of the game which tipped off much of the banning. These are assumptions, but justifiable.

Does Microsoft have the right to ban consoles? Sure, but they also have to accept the public backlash of those who were unknowingly using modified consoles. Anybody who modified their console should not be surprised when they get banned. They know the risk.

Microsoft is in a tough situation as again, there will be backlash no matter what. They should have come up with a way for those who were unknowingly using modified consoles to revert back to legitmate firmware. Of course, then how do you find the \"unknowning\".

3 replies

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Lost_Intelligence:
If you buy a console off of someone else, you take all the risk that implies.

And not to mention, before the release of Modern Warfare 2 and Borderlands, Microsoft came out and said that there were pirated copies of the game out already, and that people shouldn't download them. When does Microsoft do that? Almost never, as far as I can tell. It looks like a trap, and that Microsoft could have leaked them with the intention of catching any idiot dumb enough to download and to try playing them.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Lost_Intelligence:

How is it MS fault if people unknowingly bought modded 360s??

The only fault MS should have if legal mods like a bigger MS harddrive got banned.. But for the most part it is just hearsay.. They could have modded that and something else..

Everyone I know that modded got caught and were forced to buy a new 360 if they wanted to play MW2 online.. MS had every right to do it..

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November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

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@kcvaliant: There are those that were banned for modding to play illegal downloads, but there are also those with a todler that liked the eject button on the 360 and broke the dvd drive. Forcing a replacement out of warranty.

Most done recall but this same thing happened last year as well and will happen im sure about this time every year. The kicker here is not so much banned due to MW2. I think more along the lines of BLACK FRIDAY and month and half till xmas.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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I'm sure that at least some of the Xboxes -- that is, Xboxen -- that were banned were owned by secondary market buyers caught in the crossfire. That said, it seems it would be very difficult for them to prove that they didn't personally make any of the mods that got them banned. Sure they can show a used purchase receipt, if they still have them, but no way to prove when any modding was done. I think the take-away here is, don't buy used Xboxen. Ever. (Not a sound investment to begin with, even if we lived in a modder-free world.)

I'm also dying to know if one of the lawyers instigating this owns a banned Xbox, and whether or not they modded it. We'll probably never find out, but I like to think they do.

5 replies

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lmarconi

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Communist Pope: I agree. There are some used Xboxes that most certainly got caught up in this and it was stupid of Microsoft to not anticipate that situation. They've essentially killed the entire secondhand market for their product. In a sense that's their loss, because I'm certain they'll sell less games over time as a result and less people will buy the system because the resale value is nil. But I think Microsoft also holds some responsibility consumers who bought a system secondhand, especially those who purchased from a certified retailer like Gamestop.
There are also some people who tried to make repairs on their Xbox without sending it back to Microsoft that mostly certainly got caught up in this. I also think Microsoft should not have the power to kill any system that's been repaired by someone other than them. Void the warranty yes, but not kill - it's a blatant attempt to make as much money as possible.
It genuinely concerns me that Microsoft has the power to essentially brick your Xbox remotely without any investigation. I support a class action, though I'm not sure it will hold up in court, and I definitely support consumers boycotting Microsoft gaming products until Microsoft fixes this mess.

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nstonep

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Communist Pope: What about the ones that drift through gamestop? They're totally getting sued.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@nstonep: Gamestop is supposed to test them. I tried trading in a PS2 that didn't start up but they tested it first.

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coren

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Communist Pope: Although MS supposedly has these bans planned out weeks and months in advance - so they might have a case tehre (good luck getting MS to give up that info though)

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@coren: But even if they are able to prove a \"conspiracy,\" it doesn't change the fact that the consoles that got banned were modded, and therefore broke the terms of service. Whether Microsoft first planned to do it months ago then decided to wait until right before MW2 came out doesn't change the fact that they had every right to ban the modded consoles. Unless there's a law that says that companies have to act immediately on ToS violations or forever lose that right.

It seems to me that the only hope banned users have is to prove they own completely unmodded-yet-banned Xboxen, and/or prove they didn't break other aspects of the ToS if they were banned for reasons other than mods.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV.

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November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

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@Communist Pope: They didnt break ANY part of the Terms of service. They only voided the warranty.

Wanna know why? There is no TOS for xbox or live. only a TOU. This is different. (Ask a lawyer, or an actor playing one on tv)

But one issue here is the other features that were not live dependent. (yes netflix is, so no winning that one. HOWEVER. corrupted game saves, and install to disk and updates do not require live. only an internet connection) and these were blocked as well. (Media Center i have not confirmed)

This would be like Ford disabling the radio cause you used cheap retreaded tires. (sure they can cause a blow out and take out everyone around you on the freeway which looks bad on ford, but you shouldnt be listening to the radio while doing it. )

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kayfox

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Communist Pope:

I think one of the points of contention is that some of these consoles were not modded at all.

And dont say that all bans were 100% correct, in any case there will be false positives and despite all their efforts, the probability of false positives will not ever reach zero.

It sounds like they banned alot of people for having different DVD drives than the console was manufactured with, in this case the drives may have been replaced by a service center or microsoft and not properly recorded. Or perhaps they are banning \"unknown\" hard drive serial numbers... which might have been legitimately manufactured, just not properly recorded.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@kayfox: Prove this. Prove that was why they were banned. I don't trust those people that are making the claim because they are still trying to convince everyone that they didn't do anything wrong.

There had been no major updates right before the banning happened, so no software could have been downloaded to their consoles that would report the serial numbers. Not everyone who modded their consoles got banned. Put two and two together and you can figure out that's NOT how they figured out who to ban.

They tempted people with purposely released pirated versions of Modern Warfare 2, and possibly Borderlands. The people that got banned were likely dumb enough to try and download and run them on their Xbox 360. It would also explain why Microsoft came out and told people NOT to do that on a press release.

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coren

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Communist Pope: I have no idea if it does make a difference, but if I'm banned within seconds of going on with a live account and Jimmy got six months, there might be something there. Or there might not, as IANAL either.

This is of course assuming that they banned all consoles within their TOS, which supposedly they didn't, but then again neither side (\"unjustly banned\" or MS) is being very forthcoming about things right now.

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coren

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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I don't know about a conspiracy, but the timing is certainly suspicious - and it's not just Live accounts (which are highly profitable, yes) but also new consoles. Yall already had a story on how craigslist is flooded - just about every one of those consoles was replaced by a brand new one. I wonder if that helps the bottom line?

I wonder if that artificially boosts sales in that ever popular \"holiday\" season to show investors that the 360 is still kicking Sony's ass?

2 replies

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Preyfar

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@coren: That's just it - Microsoft doesn't ban Live accounts, just the consoles.

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coren

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Preyfar: The lawsuit is going to fail then, they're going after MS for the wrong damned thing.

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November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

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@coren: No they are going after MS for the timing. the over reaching disabling of features on the consoles, and the refusal of providing cause of banning or an form of refund as the live account no longer has a means of access for most. (not everyone can afford multi consoles, and its not like this is software you can install and use on a pc/mac. )

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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I love the word \"Bannination.\"

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Kishi

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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So, are they arguing not that they were unfairly banned, but that Microsoft let them spend money before they were banned?

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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I think that they should have been banned, but I don't think Microsoft should have completely crippled the consoles. I can see disabling online, but Media Center and the ability to access memory cards is something else entirely.

2 replies

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mon0zuki

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Dafrety: I agree 100%. I'm surprised nobody else has responded to this comment yet, since from what I'm reading other people seem to be thinking along similar lines.

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November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

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@mon0zuki: Agreed. I had this happen on my self repaired console. Now that it has no access to live. I have learned how to make LEGAL copies of my owned games and have a system link for friends.

on that note How is it that in a time of 50+\" tv's, high end processing consoles with 4 avail controllers, can i not do a 4 person split screen when friends come over... only 2.

things to MS and the banhammer I now have 2 consoles running my system link for me and my 3 buds.

And for those that say its illegal. I have a legal right to retain 1 (SINGULAR) copy of my game for backup purposes. However due to lobying The means to make that copy do not have to be made avail. I have to do that myself. And also have to destroy the copy upon selling getting rid of the legit game. (if retail copy is broke, keep it and download a copy for use. its legal)

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DasSavva

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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What about the people whose gaming data was corrupted - whether they modded or not?

4 replies

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November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

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@DasSavva: The prob with the corrupted saves. It the fact that its tied to an profile that is Linked to a live account. Which has no more access to live. This 97% of the time corrupts the save if you attempt to migrate the save

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jimv2000

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@DasSavva: How would their game data have been corrupted if they didn't mod their console?

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liquidnumb

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@jimv2000: Any number of ways. First thought being a power failure during a hard write. Mind you boxen are the only consoles I don't fuck with.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@jimv2000: Crappy made games like Madden.. My data gets corrupted all the time..

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G.O.B.: Come on!

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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They deserved to be banned from Live, but messing with data and Media Center capabilities is fucked up.

Still, I say it has no merit. You know you're rolling the dice when you mod. You also know what happens when the big M drops the hammer. If you don't want it happen, then don't do it. No one in their right mind can expect to not be banned. What difference does it make that it happens near big title releases? Your Live subscription becomes useless and wasted money no matter what time you get banned.

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humphrmi

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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Basically what this lawsuit is saying is, \"Microsoft knew that my XBOX was modded, and they waited until after I (the class) bought these new games to ban me.\"

It's weak, very weak, because on the other hand the XBOX owners knew that they had modded xboxen that were subject to banning, when they bought the game.

The only exception to this will be the secondary market buyers who didn't know that they had a modded xbox. They *might* have a case, but I suspect that the numbers of those people are very much lower than the lawsuit class.

3 replies

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G.O.B.: Come on!

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@humphrmi: I don't think second-hand buyers have an argument. It's comparable to buying a car that should have a salvage title but is advertised with a clean title; it's not Toyota/Honda/etc.'s fault that you didn't know you were buying a problematic/compromised car.

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November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

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@G.O.B.: Come on!: You should Look up the LEMON LAW.

The better analogy would be that you bought a car that was used in a robbery. In which case showing proof of this would resolve you from liability. HOWEVER MS does not give any option of this.

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kayfox

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@G.O.B.: Come on!:

But if Toyota/Honda/etc comes along and disables your car stereo, seals your glove box and tells you that you cant have it serviced at a dealer because its a compromized car, you might have an issue.

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humphrmi

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@kayfox: Correct analogy. And what this lawsuit is about is, Toyota/Honda/etc sold you some nifty CD's to play in your car stereo, knowing that the car was modded, and then disabled your stereo after they took your money for the CD's.

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pridkett

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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I don't think the sales are that much higher because of the bannings. A quick scan of Craigslist shows hundreds of banned XBox 360s for sale, most of which advertise that come with \"backups\" of various games, including Modern Warfare 2. While there may be some need for game \"backups\" the fact of the matter is that most people aren't using their modified systems for \"backup\". The argument didn't hold in the 1980's or 1990's with BBSes that called themselves \"software backup libraries\" or anything like that and it doesn't hold out now.

There are two categories of people who may have a claim: those who were collateral damage -- banned boxes that shouldn't have been banned because they weren't modded and people who modified their boxes to run homebrew and Linux. Now, I haven't seen any credible numbers on the former and wrt to the latter, that's always a danger of homebrew. Even more so when Microsoft gives you a method to write your own software through the XNA Creators Club.

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wrjohnston91283

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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They have not filed a lawsuit. They are working on gathering information. This is a pretty standard practice. A quick google search of abington reveals very little about the firm - it doesn't look like they've done much.

Also, AbingtonIP is going to have trouble litigating this case as it looks like their only attorney is a patent lawyer only licensed to practice law in Oklahoma.

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Trai_Dep

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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The lack of due process (yeah, I know: private company. I counter: Court of Public Opinion) is what is so striking about MS' mismanagement of this fiasco.
If they delivered an email to the XBox Live accountholder a week before the Ban Fest, listing all dates and games that the consumer was accused of running pirated games, along with the date that Redmond first noticed the hardware was hacked, it'd be more fair.
Even better, a link to click to lodge a complaint.

Microsoft suffers from WAY too many mistakes - administrative, consumer-related and manufacturing - to assume their Ban List is 100% accurate. Their placing ALL the burden of proof on the customer is unwarranted.

(That said, I'm sure the majority of the 1,000,000 flagged accounts are guilty, guilty, guilty. But SUBSTANTIATE beforehand, Ballmer)

2nd Point:
Microsoft very cagily destroyed the used sales market for XBoxes - I'm sure most savvy people in the market are leery of buying used ones unless there's a way to confirm the attached XBL account functions.

5 replies

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jimv2000

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Trai_Dep: I'm actually contemplating buying a banned box just to use to play some of the Xbox games that aren't for PC. I don't really care about the online portion.

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Trai_Dep

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@jimv2000: That's fine, and different.
But for someone buying a used XBox wanting Live capability for down the road, their shopping experience just got a LOT more complicated. Thus hurting that sales channel, thus strengthening Microsoft's sales. Sneaky, sneaky.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@jimv2000: +1. I just made someone and offer on craigslist for $20 (the guys who think they'll get over $100 are dreaming) so I can play that Japanese game where you roll around picking up junk.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Trai_Dep:
\"yeah, I know: private company\"
Aparently you don't.
Microsoft is a publicly owned corporation, not a private company. Stock in the company is available for purchase on the open market.

\"Microsoft very cagily destroyed the used sales market for XBoxes\"
I counter that it was the MODDERS that destroyed the consumer confidence in the market for used xbox consoles.

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Trai_Dep

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@2 replies by: Contemplate, deeply in a room rich with reference material (optimally including the Federalist Papers) the concept of Due Process.
Then reread my note. Then get back to me. OK?

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themrdee

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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\"...owners of an xbox could not open their consoles or have anyone but Microsoft do any repairs and at a grossly inflated price\".

I thought we went through this back in the '50s / '60s when the big three (BOP) came out with oil drain plugs that required a special wrench that they did not sell to non dealers. The courts ruled that this was an unfair market advantage.

1 replies

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jimv2000

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@themrdee: The difference here is that anyone can open an Xbox, but it voids the warranty.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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Of course more than half the people here said yes. What the hell website did I think i was on...

1 replies

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cerbie_the_orphan

November 24, 2009 4:25 AM

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A website where people think that hardware they bought should function as they choose it to? Denying Xbox Live access is one thing (and 100% justifiable, though there aught to be some recourse for those accidentally caught, as MS always has those), but partially bricking them is entirely wrong, and like with other types of machines (such as cars), that should not legally be within their power.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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This is no different than when DirecTV used to have \"Black Sunday\" when it nuked pirating receivers the days leading into a Super Bowl.

MS knew one of the biggest game launches in history was about to occur with Modern Warfare 2 and struck when it knew the bozos who mod and think they can beat the system will try it out or hop on Live.

ANYONE who plays this game knows you have the chance of being caught. There is no validity in crying about it. Grow up already and buy another unit.

2 replies

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Joeb5

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@dreamsneverend:
tv pirating is not the same has replacing a bad HD or putting a bigger hd one in and getting banned also direct tv has WORKING E-sata on there HD DVR boxes.

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cluberti

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Joeb5: I have a problem with this logic - I know Microsoft sells HDD upgrades (at ridiculous prices), so if you got banned for a HDD upgrade I sincerely doubt it was an official Microsoft hard drive. As to banning if someone replaced an optical drive, I don't remember seeing a retail package for an optical drive replacement, hence meaning one would have to have purchased a non-Microsoft branded component or taken one from another XBox and replaced it, which would require violating the Live TOS by \"modding\" the XBox. I feel for folks who got banned inadvertently with machines that have no mods (although I would suspect this is quite rare, I'm fairly certain it's still possible it happened) but I don't really feel for any of the other complaints. Just because it's easy to do, or Microsoft \"should have\" replaced things like failing optical drives doesn't mean they can't ban you if you mod the device in any way, and if you've got to open it to do something expect Microsoft to see the replaced component as a MOD.

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November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

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@cluberti: The problem with you logic on here is there is no MODDING THE XBOX in the TOS, CAUSE THERE IS NO TOS!!!

One you are tying in XBOX the console with LIVE the service. And for the record you can get after market and used parts for cheap. Say you went to a junkyard and got a replacement Cap for your cars radiator, should that stop your radio from working?

On replacing the optical drive a console and device ID was tied into the firmware and unique. So this info HAD to be modified. (Except on one drive you could just swap the board on the optical drive as this stored the info).

So on this grounds I could say that MS intentionally designed these consoles to fail, and unpon repair did not allow support for options for any 3rd party. (Similar to the days of compaq and pc's being proprietary). And going the next step of stating that if MS is stating that they have a way of proving and detecting these consoles for PIRACY as their concern. They they would have no issues Proving that the consoles listed were for piracy (downloaded games (proven not to be backups of legit owned games), not do to just hardware replacement. not modded for repairs or console led/fans/or visual mods)

These would be WARRANTY mods, however they are not ground for the actions that have taken place.

And for those that say the ones banned are whinning. Go to the xbox forums, they have locked down most forums not allowed anyone to post but the mods. and the only mod replys point to a FAQ that is not in any way shape or form linked, tied to, associated, or related to the TOU.

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Audiyoda

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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Wow - 53% feel a money-grubbing law firm and their class action suit has basis? That's sad.

So as I understand it, this banning of systems effected three groups - people who knowingly modded their systems to play downloaded (ie...illegal) games, people who purchased a used system that was previously modded. And people who did upgrades to their system (upgraded HDD for example).

I'm not a huge fan of M$ - but they have a right to protect their intellectual property. So in the case of people with modded systems - I have no sympathy. Even if you purchased that system used, you are getting what you paid for - I've never purchased electronics from someone I don't know. Now if it's simply a system upgrade - even if the HDD isn't a M$ authorized unit - that doesn't constitute modding IMO - that's a upgrade just as I would do to my computer. M$ should make concessions for those owners.

1 replies

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dbshaw

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Audiyoda: By not providing a process that allows people to contest their banning, with the only solution being to buy another console, I'd say they have a basis.

To believe that MS pulled off a million+ ban with NO errors defies credulity.

See, if they provide a way for banned people to contest their ban, then its a straight up action, designed to achieve what MS claims.

Without a way for people to protest their ban, its extortion.

There is a basis. And the basis is because MS won't provide a way for people to contest their ban.

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Joeb5

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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THE PS3 LETS YOU UPGRADE THE HDD ON YOUR OWN. WHY does M$ have to force to buy there super over priced 120g upgrade? and WHY BAN JUST FOR HAVING A BIGGER HDD?

1 replies

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cluberti

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@Joeb5: Because they can?

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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They (the ones behind this lawsuit) are basically just saying with this that the CONSOLE manufacturer should be held accountable if any game developer releases any attractive new games AFTER said user has been banned from online use for modding their console (or purchasing a console which they didn't confirm was legit/unmodded).

That all games released should be less attractive than the previous, just in case someone (who broke their warranty by modding their console) wants to play those games too.

Give me a break.
The modders just want to have their cake and eat it too.

This suit has no merit at all.

I mean come on, cry me a river modders & jail-breakers.
You know the risk in modding.
And if you didn't know, next time actually READ your EULA.
And yes, caveat emptor for those who bought used or opened consoles.

1 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

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@2 replies by: Show me in the EULA were it says I cannot mod my console and ill give you my cake.

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$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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Unfortunately for buyers of used consoles, the stores like Gamestop make it seem like buying the used console is the same as buying the new one. Most of these buyers have no idea about any of this stuff, especially parents who are buying their kids a video game console, they just think it plays games. Yes its their fault for being ignorant, but we can't put the blame on the consumer all the time. No one is an expert on everything. Now I am sure that GS has a policy for this now, but what about people who bought previously used consoles that were modded and didn't know it.

I don't like that Microsoft restricted use of 3rd party items like memory cards and hard drives, because those items are sold right along the microsoft stuff just for a cheaper price. There is no way for the average consumer to tell the difference or know the item is going to be banned in the future. Most people who buy this stuff are just trying to save money. In fact many times the clerks at the store upsell the 3rd party stuff as cheaper and better to customers who are buying console accessories.

The user agreement also isn't printed on the outside of the box or in a pamphlet on store shelves so people can find out what they are getting into BEFORE they buy the system.

I have a feeling its just easier for me to stick with the game consoles I have instead of buying all this new fangled stuff. Yes now I am sounding like an old person but when the company you buy from is restricting your use of the item that much I do not want to own it at all. I would never buy a Xbox360 or any other console from microsoft and I likely will not be participating in the release of any other new consoles.

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AnthonyC

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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Can Xbox owners who do not have internet access (or have chosen not to connect their xbox to the internet) use memory cards and/or install games to their hard drives?

If so, then Microsoft has a bit of a logic problem. Such persons could still mod their systems and play pirated games; only those pirates who also chose to pay microsoft additional money for an extra service would be affected by this. This is neither a good anti-piracy system nor a good way to get people to pay for your service.

The central problem, really, is the lack of any way whatsoever for those who claim to have been banned WITHOUT having modded their consoles from proving this and regaining their service. Not people who bought used from a third party; people who bought new systems, didn't mod, and got banned anyway.

If there are no such people, then all is well. Anyone who unknowingly bought a used, modded system- caveat emptor. Go after the people who bought it from, and get them to deal with the fact that they didn't disclose the mod. If you bought it used from a store and the store didn't know it was unmodded- tell them you won;t be shopping there any more.

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dbshaw

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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If MS provides NO recourse to prove your case then they are in effect breaking people's consoles forcing them to give more money to MS if they wish to continue to play in the manner they have been. Its called extortion. If MS is on the up and up, they'd provide a way for people to show they got hit with the ban-hammer by accident.

3 replies

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cluberti

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@dbshaw: Until we hear of evidence that calling Microsoft about a banned console that was actually banned without mods of any kind and they respond in a manner that can be construed as refusing to assist, I don't think we can pass any judgment on that point.

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

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@cluberti: I can flat out tell you that calling MS will provide no recorse for banned consoles. They refer you to the TOU and this ALSO PROVIDES NO INFO. When asked to give me a section or list where the word mod appears, they couldnt answer.

Look in their forums and you will see no help as well. Only a vague and poor attempt at a FAQ that states about the bans and tries to come off as legally binding. However is not something any Live customer has ever aggreed to.

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cluberti

December 9, 2009 11:17 PM

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If that really is the case, get a lawyer and take them to small claims court in your area. If they really are banning consoles with no recourse, obviously tying Live to the console, then take them to court. It should be an easy win.

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dbshaw

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@cluberti: I think we can because MS has provided NO recourse for a mistaken ban. None at all. If MS really made no errors at all, why not provide a way for people to contest the ban? If no errors were made they'd have no takers. If every banned xbox was modded, no one would be able to claim it was a mistake.

To claim that none of the millions of bans were a mistake, you'd have to accept MS has a 0% failure rate on this operation. Come ON!!!!

By providing no recourse, whether or not anyone would be able to take advantage of it, it just smacks of extortion.

It breaks down like this:

MS thinks you broke the terms.
Gimps your service.
Provides NO recourse to protests.
Only solution is to spend hundreds of dollars.

That's shady.

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$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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This lawsuit makes no sense. I was led to believe that all banned consoles will allow thoes users to transfer their gamertags to a new console. So if that's the case, Microsoft isn't making squat on users resigning up for new Live accounts.

3 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@SnoopyFish: And so what? If your console is banned now, they corrupt your gamesaves.

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dbshaw

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@SnoopyFish: But they're making a bundle on new consoles. Given that they've provided no way to contest a ban, that's a little shady.

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steveliv

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@SnoopyFish: you are correct, it is a point many fail to see. The gamertags are intact, as are the Gold live membership. they need only be restored on an unbanned console new or used.

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$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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When I was in Baghdad in '07, there was this Iraqi that would mod your x-box/360s for about $50 and he also sold a store-full of ripped games. The PXs sold X-box 360s but the stores only sold a small supply so having this \"legit storefront\" off-base was nice for games that the PX didn't sell. I bet a lot of these banned boxes came from these guys too or at least a few of them.

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steveliv

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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for what its worth, a banned xbox's save files are not corrupted, it is just that they will not be recognized by an unbanned console. they will work fine on the xbox they were created on. second, a banned xbox cannot stream as a media center extender, that is a bit harsh, but the ability to store a game on the hdd is pretty much a wash since the xbox requires the disc to be in the drive to play the game, and the few seconds saved when loading/playing doesn't really amount to much of a time advantage...

1 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

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@steveliv: The load times for older games and for multi disc games was greatly improved. However newer ones were not the case.

You forget to take into consideration the about of wear and tear this saves on an optical drive by installing on the HDD.

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$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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But if you modify your car and add 30 blinding lights to the front of you car outside of DOT spec the police have the right to give you a ticket.

If you've got people modifying their consoles to play pirated games then they deserve to get booted from Live according to the TOS. Yes things like Netflix may use Live, but they knew it so its just a bunch of whining that they got caught.

Doing something knowingly wrong by some of the mods and then claiming that you never knew is unethical too.

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consciousj

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@drivebybiped: Modded firmware is not necessarily proof that people play pirated games, since what caused the ban is the firmware challenge code, not the game itself. Good luck to MS in trying to prove what the firmware was actually used for, since they would have to investigate everyone's personal computers and homes for evidence of downloaded/burned games. The amount of money spent on trying to do that would be in the millions, if not billions. It's not going to happen, and thus in the EULA there is nothing that states a local device being disabled is the result of being banned from a network.

That's why I think there's a case here - not because people want to be unbanned from a network, but because of all the additional things that happen as a result of being banned from a network.

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Antiks

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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MS and all of the other software companies can take their EULA and get stuffed. Some of them, according to EFF, are downright draconian.

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kabuk1

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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Sorry, but I'm on the modders' side on this one. I believe that once you buy something, it is YOURS to do what you want with, and the manufacturer has no right to dictate how you use it. I can understand the warranties being voided by modding, but to ban people for it? Come on, Microsoft. For shame. It's like a car company remotely disabling your car cause you installed a K&N filter. Yeesh.

I have a Windows Mobile phone that I immediately unlocked & 'modded' with custom software as soon as I got it. I dare MS or Sprint to disable my device or cut off my service just cause I'm using the device that I PAID FOR in a way they don't like.

2 replies

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Woofer00

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@kabuk1: What you believe and what is true are unfortunately different things. You don't own much of the media you purchase, nor do you own more than the physical hardware that your phone or xbox is made of. MS or Sprint probably won't ban you from their network, but they probably could. To use your analogy, let's say the Live users bring their machines in for service every time they logged in. The company could simply refuse to ever service any part of your car potentially affected by the air filter. (Believe me, if you have mods on your car and you bring it in for warranty, this can and will happen)

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cerbie_the_orphan

November 24, 2009 4:43 AM

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I'm afraid it tends to work out differently, such that you have copies and can decide what to do with them, within pretty reasonable limits. See Adobe and Autodesk, in particular, for recent examples.

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nstonep

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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Actually...this conspiracy theory might have merit but good luck proving it.

It makes sense on it's face, they keep the subscription revenue AND they boot users saving money on server fees and maintenance.

Hmm...

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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I agree with the accusations. I also think they did it to sell more X-Boxes. They are adamently suggesting that consumers buy a new one. So, they increase membership sales and X-Box sales. They don't even have to explain the banning. They just do it and refuse to undo it. I am shocked that a company has that much power over a product that someone else owns and they have have no one to answer to for it--no accountability.

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Zwoda

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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The bannings occurred before Modern Warfare 2 was released, so the lawsuit has one of its key points undermined from the get-go.

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Quaoar

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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I have read that there are upwards of one million modded consoles. The problem with this for Microsoft and their game vendors is that there are upwards of one million modded consoles that can use one single DVD of a major game posted as a torrent on any one of the major torrent sites.

So, the potential loss for Microsoft and its game vendors for one game priced at $50 is $50,000,000. If this loss is integrated over the entire releases of games, it is not too difficult to conclude that the losses of revenue can be upwards of a $one billion per year.

Microsoft is entirely justified to poison those who have modded their Xboxen and then used pirated games.

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donovanr

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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Personally as a consumer I love it. I bought a banned xbox 360 tonight for $80. The person selling it had already bought a new xbox. I have zero interest in online games so to me the xbox is as functional as anything I could get from the store. If it breaks then I will get another $80 or have it repaired outside of warranty. So unless I get three boxes I will be way ahead cost wise.
Now if Porsche would just ban some of their cars....

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Roloboto

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

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The answer is simple. Buy a PS3.

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November 25, 2009 2:47 AM

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I would like to see someone investagate the \" Ring of death\" Its amazing how many people had a hardware failure . I think this is a money pit. I have had this happen two diffrent times. I think the xbox is designed to fail and get $100.00 more out of everyone.

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November 25, 2009 2:54 AM

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I think MS should be investagated for designing a products that would have a hd failure. I think the \"ring of death\" is a scam to get an extra $100.00 out of consumers. I think this is fraud and that is worth taking them to court!!!

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November 26, 2009 3:23 AM

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I think MS designed the xbox to fail and when poeple learned how to fix them without paying another 100$ MS got pissed and Banned. The \"whole ring of death\" is BullSHI** and that should be investagated.

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