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shepd
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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This is a problem with just about all segments of society. Work included. How many employers are going to give you paid time off if you're sick?

Not many. So you get presenteeism and more sick people.

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4 replies
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ahleeeshah
November 24, 2009 10:58 AM
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The last two employers I've had have both provided paid time off, regardless of the reason. The first one was a major company and it did separate vacation time from sick days, but you still got paid if you were sick (you also got a day off for your birthday and major holidays were paid without taking your paid time off as well). My current job is a much smaller company, and it just gives you a pool of PTO hours, but you can use them as you wish. Vacation, sick, mental health day, whatever.

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pecan 3.14159265
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@shepd: I took off two days this year simply because of how much information had been disseminated about the flu/H1N1. I take public transpo and I'm around a ton of people every day, so I really didn't want to spread my germs. Also, just because you have germs already doesn't mean you can't pick up more germs. It wasn't worth it just to suffer at work.


But then again, I get paid sick leave.

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kaceetheconsumer
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@pecan 3.14159265: If more people had paid sick leave, including to take care of their sick kids, more would probably stay home when sick.

I'd even wager that illnesses wouldn't last as long because even a day of rest can do wonders for getting over a bug.

But I know a lot of people who either have no sick leave or what they have is so small that if they ever have to use it to take care of a kid, there's not enough to take care of themselves or vice versa. :(

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Starphantom12
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@shepd: That, and when I'm sick AND required to travel, I feel a little vengeful... a little less inclined to keep others from suffering as I am suffering. Misery loves company, y'know? At all other times I try to adhere to Wheaton's Law.

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wickedpixel
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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I flew this past summer and when the woman sitting next to me sat down she said, \"sorry, I've got a bit of a cold. I'll try not to breathe on you.\" Gee, thanks. two days later I had tonsillitis. Great way to spend a vacation.

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TonyK
November 24, 2009 7:35 AM
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If someone said this to me, I would press the call button and ask the flight crew for a new seat, for the person who made the comment.

People should not fly sick. We need to know they are sick or suffering allergies. Her admission she had a \"cold\" should have grounded her.

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hi
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@wickedpixel: If it's true that you build up an immunity by getting sick then you should thank the old woman because next time you catch the same thing you won't get sick... right?

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NickelMD
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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Most airlines will let you change or refund your ticket if you are *unable* to fly due to medical illness. I have completed many forms for people to do just this.

And in my licensed medical opinion, people with influenza (and other airborne communicable diseases) are *un-fucking-able* to fly. Period. I may provide to the airline the symptoms they have which would render them medically unable to fly, but I'll be damed if I will ok someone to fly who by doing so might endanger another person's life.

But to be honest you don't even need to fudge in most cases. For example H1N1 can cause hypoxia which would be quite dangerous to someone up at altitude with a lower pO2. Oops - can't safely fly.

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Anne Boleyn
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@NickelMD: I'm with you. I'm an epidemiologist, and I'll tell you that airplanes are worse than just a petri dish in the sky. They're a petri dish in the sky full of splicing and recombination. They are the perfect environment for co-infection and intermingling of flu strains that can result in more virulent strains. Which is exactly what we're so damn scared of with H1N1. I think we're just biding our time.

/doom-and-gloom

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subtlefrog
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@NickelMD: Agreed totally - but then, many people lack insurance to see the doctor to get the paperwork, don't know about the paperwork, or have insurance but still need to pay the doctor a hefty sum for the paperwork.

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NickelMD
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@subtlefrog: Don't know about the paperwork is lack of doing your homework. Lack insurance is a travesty and an embarrassment to the entire US. (That's why my hippy clinic sees everyone regardless of ability to pay or insurance status... maybe someday if congress gets their collective heads out of their asses we'll break even.)

But if your doctor charges you 'a hefty sum' to complete a form that takes 2 minutes to complete during your 15 minute visit, you may need another doctor (unless the reason is that you want to do 30 minutes of other work in your 15 minutes *and* complete the form... having a doable goal for your visit helps.) Now if you ask for the form to be completed outside of the visit a reasonable charge is, well... reasonable. Your insurance doesn't pay for phone calls, completing forms, or pretty much anything else unless you haul yourself into your doctor's office.

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The Cynical Librarian
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@NickelMD: I wish my doctor would give me opinions in the form of \"un-fucking-able\" to do X. I think I would be more inclined to visit the doctor then.
Also; I agree with what you're saying.

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Powerlurker
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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This is exactly the type of thing that you buy travel insurance for. If you don't want to pay a change fee when something bad happens, then suck it up and buy a refundable fare.

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NickelMD
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@Powerlurker: But the problem is that since most people are cheap they don't buy optional insurance or refundable fares, the airlines are creating a public health hazard by allowing people to 'opt out' of a higher cost. Those who opt out aren't endangering themselves but others on the plane. Its no different than driving a car without insurance.

The cost of changing in case of airborne infectious disease should not be an option but should be included in the price of every ticket. In general travel insurance is $10-15/flight (if that) and if everyone were required to pay that surcharge far fewer people would be endangered.

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hotdogsunrise
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@NickelMD: Agreed. And I don't understand why, if H1N1 is such a big deal, airlines aren't forced to allow for such changes. If someone is sick, they should be able to change their flight. Period.


I've already read horror stories of people flying with H1N1.

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lannister80
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@Powerlurker: BS. Flying while sick doesn't inconvenience *me* at all. Why would I buy insurance if that's the case? That's like paying all your neighbor's insurance premiums just in case you put a baseball through his window.

Now, if the airline said \"If you're sick, then you can reschedule for free\", I'd do it. But I'm not going to do it out of the goodness of my heart. Not with that much $$ on the line.

So, *healthy* people should have to buy the travel insurance. Then, when they're stuck next to someone who's sick, THEY can reschedule, not the sick person.

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hotdogsunrise
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@Powerlurker: But refundable fares are not only extremely expensive, but are limited per flight. For most people, this is simply not an option.


Travel insurance makes the most sense. Although, travel insurance can also be a gamble. This is especially so if the person doesn't purchase travel insurance, but goes with some scammy company instead.


Research, research, research.

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seishino
November 24, 2009 7:49 AM
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All of the travel insurance I've seen requires a doctor's signature if you're ill. So if you get a cold that day, you'd basically need to go to the emergency room. I know my mother has a 5k dollar yearly deductible, so that's 500 dollars out of her pocket to get the signature at all. Personally, my insurance is a lot more reasonable, but my PhP is usually booked out weeks in advance.

Sure, go get a doctor's note for a cold. While you're at it, find an airline that never loses your luggage and gives you a free pony.

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oneandone
November 25, 2009 5:33 PM
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I've seen travel insurance that requires hospitalization - doctor's note wasn't enough for them. Read the fine print & watch out!

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pecan 3.14159265
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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What about the healthy people who end up saddled next to a sick person? If someone with H1N1 sat next to me, I would have a huge problem with being on that plane. If people with H1N1 can get on a plane because they refuse to rebook because of the fees, I say healthy people who get to sick next to them can reasonably appeal to the airline and get rebooked for free. I get maybe they would end up next to another sick person, but it's ridiculous that a person's selfishness may get a ton of other people sick.

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pecan 3.14159265
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@pecan 3.14159265: ...healthy people who get to sit next to them...

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Tallanvor
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@pecan 3.14159265: It's ridiculous that the airlines are too greedy to understand that their policies encourage people to fly when they're sick instead of having to pay outrageous fees to change their plans.

Also, travel insurance only helps so much. --It may cover you in case you get sick just before your trip starts, but as far as I can tell, it generally doesn't include extra nights in a hotel if you're too sick to fly home.

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winshape
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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I'm surprised it is only 51%. I can only imagine that the other 49% misunderstood the question and figured it would be too hard to get out of bed to go to the actual airport.

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TonyK
November 24, 2009 7:37 AM
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Probably the 51% that were being honest.

I've had my wife re-book her travel plans when she is not well. We do our best to be considerate of others. Just wish they would extended the courtesy.

Take care,

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pecan 3.14159265
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@winshape: I would say that it's more like 35%. The other 14% is still stuck in traffic on their way to the airport.

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hotdogsunrise
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@pecan 3.14159265: And don't forget the 10% that are still stuck on the tarmac from their last flight.

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msbask
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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The article is a little misleading. It's not like the airline won't let you re-book if you have H1N1. They won't let you re-book because of ANY sickness.


And really, how would that work anyway? I decide I want to change my non-changeable flight, so I walk into my doctor's office and cough a few times so he'll give me a note excusing me from flying.


People would be doing that left and right to save re-book fees, wouldn't they?

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humphrmi
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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I flew to Hong Kong in 2004, immediately after the SARS pandemic there. Every airport had these heat sensing devices that you had to walk through before you could board the plane. People who were too \"hot\" were not allowed to board. In fact, you didn't need to worry about rebooking - if you were disallowed boarding, you were taken to a local hospital and quarantined until they could determine why you had a fever. Once you were cleared to fly, it was pretty much up to you to work out rebooking with your airline.

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Kimaroo - 100% Pure Natural Kitteh
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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I had seen a story on my local news last month about the TSA screening people to see if they may have H1N1, and if they determined it so, they wouldn't be allowed to fly.


The story didn't go too much in depth, but they had thermometers and were asking health questions.


This was supposed to be at the Hobby Airport in Houston. I hadn't heard anything about this since then though.


If this really is true, I am very afraid for our privacy, and I would be one pissed off consumer if a TSA agent decided I was \"too sick to fly\" and then the airline wouldn't rebook.

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LadySiren is murdering her kids with HFCS and processed cheese
November 24, 2009 8:04 AM
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Okay, there's no way I'd let a thermometer-wielding TSA agent near me. Given the general lack of competence and caring I've personally witnessed from TSA personnel, I wouldn't trust them to put it in the right orifice (my mouth, you sickos).

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theSuperman
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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I just flew last Wednesday, and a few days later I come down with a cold. Coincidence? Although the person I sat next to was my Dad, so I dont think he got me sick.

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Ebriosa
November 24, 2009 10:59 AM
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That's the thing about them being \"flying petri dishes\" - you can everyone's germs to some extent because of the recirculated air.

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pecan 3.14159265
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@theSuperman: Proximity matters less when you come in contact with a ton of people. The TSA agent who handled your bag might have coughed into his or her hands. The person you bought a snack or a book from might have done the same. And then there's the fact that you are in a tube with dozens of people in one cabin.

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TCama
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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If you're paranoid, bring hand sanitizer (3 o.z. or less in a 1-qt. plastic bag) and a mask.

Rebooking fees are usually around $150 per reservation. If I can physically get out of bed and drag myself to the airport, I'm getting on that plane. I'll bring some DayQuil and a mask, but as long as the airline discourages me from rebooking, I'm going to fly.

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babyruthless
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@TCama: Standard surgical masks will protect other people from your germs, but they won't keep other peoples' germs away from you--the gapping at the side is more than sufficient to let the germs in. You need a tighter-fitting mask, similar to the ones used on construction sites if you want to keep germs away.

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pecan 3.14159265
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@TCama: Nothing like wearing a mask to reassure the rest of the passengers!

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Ronin-Democrat
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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and you can't even get a GIANT can of lysol past the security checkpoint to spray your area of contamination..

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Snakeophelia
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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I came down with pneumonia less than 24 hours after flying back from SC on a very small jet this September. I'd've paid extra to make sure THAT person wasn't on the plane, either near me or before me and breathing on my seat.

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formergr
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@Snakeophelia: It would take a good bit longer than 24 hours to incubate and then come down with pneumonia, so there is no way you could it from the flight back from SC.

Though depending on when you flew *to* SC, then it's entirely possible you caught it on that flight (usually about 3-5 days post exposure).

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floraposte
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@formergr: And may have actually given it to his/her returning seatmate rather than acquiring it that way.

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TCama
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@Snakeophelia: Would you have paid that person's rebooking fee?

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jdmba
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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People have shown they will go through the OPPOSITE to fly. Reports surrounding airports which scan people's temperature were showing that people would take fever reducers before reporting to their flight.

This is a country of 'me first'. For those who are sick, they are not going to get sicker (well, at least not with what they already have), so they have no reason to take an inconvenience of changing their flight or their behavior.

Colds, H1N1, unruly children ... it's all the same. Not THEIR problem.

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soloudinhere
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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Hand sanitizer does exactly zero to help you.

For a number of reasons. First being that you kill off the good bacteria on your skin that can help keep you from getting sick.

But the second is, you're most likely to absorb the virus or bacteria through the mucous membranes in your nose, mouth, and eyes from being in contaminated air. Most of these illenesses are spread by airborne contact.

Add in some recycled air, and everyone on that plane will be sitting in that one person's germs all day. It's really selfish to fly if you KNOW you are contagious.

I wonder what will happen when some high risk person catches H1N1 after flying. I see a very large lawsuit.

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NickelMD
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@soloudinhere: The evidence for hand sanitizers in preventing spread of influenza is much better than the evidence for masks. If someone coughs in your face you certainly could get ill, but most infectious disease is spread by the same old four Fs: Fingers, Flies, Feces, and Fu... F... um... Fornication. Good control of infectious disease is aimed at stopping those forms of transmission: wash your hands, wear a condom, plumbing, and avoidance/mitigation of biting insects.

To avoid influenza keep your hands clean, whether through sanitizers or soap and water and you will significantly decrease your risk. And your comment about killing off good bacteria is incorrect. There are some places where you need 'good' bacteria. Your GI tract, your VJ, but not your hands. However even if that was an issue, 'good bacteria' keep other 'bad bacteria' and fungi away. They have nothing to do with preventing viral infections.

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Winter White
November 24, 2009 8:23 AM
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There are numerous studies that have been done that show that most commercially available hand sanitizers are under the minimum 60% alcohol concentration required to kill most microbes and viruses. They also do not work on hands that are dirty (as in visibily soiled).

Further, most people do not use enough-- the CDC guidelines state that you should use enough to thoroughly wet all surfaces of your hands, and if your hands are dry in under 10 seconds, you haven't used enough. Most commercial sanitizer bottles dispense less than half the proper amount.

All this adds up to, in the real world, hand sanitizers do not do what they say they do. Sort of like condoms in real world usage.

I'm glad you're an epidemiologist and all, but as a microbiologist, I'm fairly confident that I should not be relying on the average person to be properly disinfecting their hands. I can do my own, but I'm still sitting in a complete and utter cesspool of airborne material.

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sassbrown74
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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I see nobody paid too much attention to the bit about their not being many studies about flu spreading on airplanes. Travel, particularly across time zones, places stresses on the human body, which lowers one's immune system. It just as likely that this is why people find themselves becoming sick more often after flying, rather than some sort of increased risk of transmission in the air.

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floraposte
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@sassbrown74: It's also the sheer mathematics of the number of people you rub up against during travel.

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AnxiousDemographic
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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\"People are reluctant to pay a fee to keep others healthy\"

Isn't the problem really that the airlines force people to pay a fee?

This is a variation on the private sector (airlines) shedding risk at the expense of the public (customers).

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Powerlurker
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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@AnxiousDemographic:

They don't \"force\" people to pay a change fee. The change fee is something you as a passenger accept in exchange for a cheaper ticket. Check out the price of a refundable fare without a change fee some time. You could typically rebook your ticket (with the $150 change fee) three or four times before you make up the difference.

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SaraFimm
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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I'd say flight insurance and a medical note from the doctor about your illness should cover your flight change problem. Period.

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PBallRaven
November 23, 2009 5:32 PM
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As much of a problem as Delta has with other things, that's a plusfor them. I'm sure other factors go in to a persons decision to flysick. Such as the time put into the planning for the trip in the firstplace, other reservations that might have fees attached, considerationfor other persons that have made plans, business plans, special eventsthat they don't want to miss, etc. etc.

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Cant_stop_the_rock
November 24, 2009 12:47 AM
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Glad I'm not flying anytime soon.

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TonyK
November 24, 2009 7:31 AM
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My concern is for people kicked off flights are not \"sick\" but suffering from normal allergies. Flight crews are not medical professionals. But everyday flight crews \"kick\" people off flights, leaving them stranded without their luggage in strange cities. Instead, why not give that person a mask to wear of it is only a few sniffles.

And traverlers, DO NOT WEAR PERFUME OR COLOGNE. People are allergic to different things and perfume and cologne can cause an episode. Be respectful of other people and take in to account that the world does not revolve around YOU.

Take care,

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MadPetesGirl
November 25, 2009 2:15 PM
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DON'T get me started on this line! While on a trip to Seattle, my (four-year-old) son came down with a bad case of H1N1. We called Sun Country airline two days before the flight to try and change the flight back to MSP. My husband talked to several representatives but could not get the $150/ticket change fee reduced or forgiven. When he pointed out that we could just show up, he was told that even though my son was hacking like a 50-year smoker and bright red from fever *he would not be prevented from boarding the plane*. My husband restated what he heard to make sure and the representative reiterated that no one would prevent my son from boarding the flight.

We did have a note from a doctor and were told that would not help. We had not purchased flight insurance and so we would have to pay the $300 to fly later in the week.

I will grant that in retrospect I wish I would have purchased the insurance. I haven't in the past because it has never been an issue. I have found most airlines willing to work it out, within reason. In the last year I haven't purchased it because I am also now paying to check bags and it is getting really expensive. So I took a risk.

Still. I thought it was pretty poor unsympathetic customer service. We have flown Sun Country often in the past because we wanted to support a \"local\" airline. However, we will not use them anymore. We usually can find the same fare on one of the other airlines.

It was a sad experience for me, but I couldn't in good conscience take my son on the plane and expose others. So our Christmas took a little hit financially, but all's well that ends well.

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