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diasdiem

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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If for whatever reason I suddenly found my financial situation greatly improved, I'd probably loosen up a little bit, because frugality can feel oppressive at times. But I'd never go back to spending money left and right. I'll continue to know exactly what I'm doing with my money and where it's going.

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November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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\"A new study says that 26% of US consumers \"have no plans to return to their free-spending ways...\"

...until credit cards and loans are once again super easy to come by. Most people don't become frugal by choice, they become frugal because it's the only way for them to get by.

9 replies

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Jevia

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@dragonfire81: Depends. With the new credit card protections going in, credit may never be quite as easy as it was. I know I'm even canceling a card because they are instituting a yearly fee of $50. The card only had a limit of $2,000 anyway, so its not like I'm losing much and the credit hit should be minimal.

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Burning pakalolo not even noticing the weather

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@dragonfire81: +1

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jblack

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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Did you ever meet someone that lived during the great depression? Many of them are very frugal. They got hurt badly enough that they never, ever, forgot the lesson, even after it no longer applied to them.

This economic event is the second only to the great depression which, if you use unadjusted unemployment as a guide, were 3/5 of the way to.

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November 13, 2009 4:37 PM

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Not to nitpick, but this economic event would be the third not the second. 1981-1982 had around 8% unemployment rate and a 13% inflation rate. What we're at is around 10% unemployment with 0% inflation.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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My grandparents lived through the depression. My comments were specifically directed at people who splurged during the boom years and now are feeling a bit of a pinch.

I can about guarantee you some of them would go back to their free spending ways if they suddenly became able to access credit again. Some wouldn't, but many would.

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thisistobehelpful

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@jblack: Yeah my grandparents were great depression survivors and their families did very well through it. My grandmother still washed plastic baggies out and my other grandmother didn't throw anything even remotely usable away.

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coren

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@jblack: While I see your point, those are also, for the most part, people who grew up in that environment. Most people who were adults in that time period are dead. Changing behavior is a lot different from learning it as a child.

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Daveinva

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@jblack: A *third* of the country was out of work. A third of the people who weren't out of work lived like, well, people in the 1930s lived. The poor and lower middle class turned into migrant workers.

It's a bad economy. It ain't the Great Depression, not even close.

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bohemian

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@dragonfire81: I was uber frugal in my years as a starving student, starving artist. I went back to many of my old habits. What I have seen in the last maybe 5-6 years is that the entire system is a complete ruse, there is no job security and we are way too much at the mercy of big companies and employers whims. Our infrastructure is also really unreliable and that has been proven in that same time frame. Gas prices are unstable and where I live there is no alternate transportation. I can't even catch a train to get out of town.

Too many past assumptions I had about the country, economy and my own financial situation have been proven false. I'm not going back. This isn't a matter of temporary belt tightening. Maybe it helps that my parents grew up in the great depression?

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Taint_Too_Proud_To_Beg

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@dragonfire81: Not true of everyone. I have a very high FICO score, lots of credit cards and no credit card debt. My frugality has nothing to do with my available credit - I have lots of it. I've just learned that there is great freedom in having no debt since paying it all off last year.

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November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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I don't think \"permanent\" can be taken too seriously in this context. How many people, the morning after getting hammered, say they're never going to drink that much again, and they do it anyway...

2 replies

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diasdiem

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@vladthepaler: But this time I mean it!

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November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@diasdiem: Same thing is true of one night stands (at least, some people regret them).

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morningface

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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We can only hope. It would probably mean longer recession-like symptoms, but on the whole, I think the national economy would be on much more stable footing in the long term if people continued to be more responsible with their money.

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November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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why less loyalty? I'm more loyal to the companies that have always treated me right - even when they were not desperate for cash. The companies that \"suddenly\" became nice and accomodating - since they now have to \"earn\" our business - I dont feel for so much.

6 replies

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sublight

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@MartaMyrrha: If anything, frugality has increased my loyalty for the shops and companies that I found I could count on for good quality at a good price when money's tight.

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diasdiem

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@MartaMyrrha: I think it's referring more to people going with lower-cost products rather than the more expensive brand-names they had previously been using..

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Applekid

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@diasdiem: Especially with all the shrink-ray action going on by the major brands.

The public at large has noticed their short-sighted pocket lining adventures.

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bohemian

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@Applekid: I have bailed on quite a few products due to the shrink ray. I either buy a similar product that has not shrunk, the raw ingredients or quit buying it.

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diasdiem

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@Applekid: You'll know if the shrink ray is getting out of hand when this year at Thanksgiving and Christmas Butterball tries to pass off chickens as turkeys.

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Gnort

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@Applekid: Exactly and it's more than just that for me. Companies that historically had a good product - who now have shipped production overseas to a bargain basement factory to line their pockets - have lost my business. I don't care if it says Samsonite or Crapsonite, if it's all made in the same place and the one is charging $200 more is it any wonder I'll buy the cheaper.

For me loyalty isn't just falling so I can save a buck on one trip to the store. Loyalty is falling so I can save many times over by buying products that last.

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jblack

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@MartaMyrrha:
I imagine that consumers are telling them that cost is now important than past habits. Someone that gives up that $2.00/day starbucks coffee isn't loyal to starbucks any more.

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diasdiem

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@jblack: And generic and store brands over brand-names. I bought a store-brand can of bean dip last week for $.59. A can of Frito Lay bean dip of the same size was $2.19.

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humphrmi

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@MartaMyrrha: Anecdotal confirmation here. Raises haven't kept up with expenses, and even though my salary has gone up, my actual standard of living has decreased since 2001. So now we're taking a more aggressive approach to cost cutting.

For instance, with food: no more brand names, period. So far in the last three weeks we've tried generics for everything, and liked them just fine. In fact, we don't even shop at the big premium grocers anymore... Food4Less (part of Krogers) and Aldi.

Here's the kicker... since now we're happy with the food quality of the generics, what reason would we have to go back to premium brands if / when our real income increases? Even if they offer 20 or 30 cent coupons as a lure, I'm still saving nearly 50% buying generic without a coupon or a store loyalty card.

It's going to be dark days for retail soon.

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November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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oh - and Americans not going back to normal? I dont buy it.

2 replies

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Applekid

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@MartaMyrrha: Not buying it is part of the problem. :(

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diasdiem

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@Applekid: With people not buying, companies aren't making as much money, they have to lay people off, so now they have less money to spend, so one and so forth. But once everyone gets over this initial kick in the balls, and build up a cushion again, they'll get more comfortable spending again.

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pb5000

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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Is this being positioned as a bad thing? I for one am pretty happy about it. It is nice to see an entire culture of people changing to a more responsible form of behavior.

1 replies

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ARP

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@pb5000: Yes, but such a large part of our economy is now based on our irresponsible ways, that it will have a short term impact on our economy. Long term (if people keep it up), I think it will help. The problem is that it probably won't last long term.

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November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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What? Not spend? Why, that's un-American! Don't you know the well being of the world depends on YOUR profligate behavior? If you don't spend like there's no tomorrow, the world will end in 2012!

Uh...

4 replies

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Jevia

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Paladin_11: I agree that consumerism was raging rampant. I keep hearing that Blu-Rays and HD/LCD TVs are so great, but frankly, my current ordinary DVD player and TV work just fine for me. I really don't have to see an actor's every wrinkle. I seriously doubt I'll replace either until they break.

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SunTzuWarmaster

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@Paladin_11: Investment is like spending, but without the product, and you get more money back. Americans used to get behind that initiative.

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Taint_Too_Proud_To_Beg

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@Paladin_11: I was in Mexico last week and two seperate street vendors urged me, \"Buy some stuff you don't need!\" I told them \"But I'm not a typical American!\" but I don't think they got it... or cared. Can't blame them for wanting my money but I'm super selective nowadays.

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bohemian

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@Paladin_11: If the entire world's economic survival depends on people in the US foolishly spending themselves into the poor house on crap like Snuggies for their dogs the system is done for.

Companies would never base their business models on ever increased spending, oh wait.

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tailstoo

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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...until the new MUST HAVE 3D LCD TVs come out - then all bets are off!

1 replies

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bohemian

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@tailstoo: Why? I waited until our CRT TV died and we could no longer get it repaired before we broke down and bought an LCD TV. If the people that bought every new gadget came out are the ones really hurting today maybe not so much.

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Taint_Too_Proud_To_Beg

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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Now that many of us know what it's like to be laid off when it seemed IMPOSSIBLE to those of us who work hard and had bosses that were very happy with our work and appreciated us, I prefer the satisfaction of no debt to buying a bunch of crap. I still like to shop but am far more selective than before, and savings are now imperative to me.

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outlulz

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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Oh please. Wait until there's another bubble and all everyone repeats the same mistakes they made this time. Do people think this is the first recession?

2 replies

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Duke_Newcombe sez íViva la Revolucion de Chihuahua!

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@outlulz: \"It's happened before...and it will happen again.\"

Sorry...was that a bit too Cylon-ey?

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East_Coast_Midwesterner

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Duke_Newcombe sees what you did there...:

It's the first for me that had any impact.

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November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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I just got out of college and snagged a 46K a year IT job starting Monday. I'd say my frugal ways might just shift a little freeward myself.

1 replies

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kmw2

November 13, 2009 4:37 PM

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@R3PUBLIC0N: Yeah, all that \"Food\" and \"rent AND electricity\" and \"shoes with no holes\". Go crazy :)

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Michael Belisle

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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Yeah! Just like how we now have a permanent Democratic majority. And if Washington DC gets a representative, it's seriously game over forever.

Oh and how in 2007 finance had solved the problem of housing busts. We were in a permanent economic boom back then, you know, just as we were during the the permanent economic boom in the 90s.

And how by 2042, we'll have a hispanic majority in America. Cause nothing between now and then will slow the influx. Nothing!

*sigh* Why is so much attention paid to such short-sighted future predictions?

2 replies

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Applekid

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@Michael Belisle: Are you making a prediction that we'll continue to pay attention to short-sighted future predictions?

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Michael Belisle

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@Applekid: I suppose I am. Short-sighted might not be the right word.. \"Stupid\" might is better. Or perhaps \"narrow-minded\", if you want to be polite.

Speaking of which, Bad Predictions by Laura Lee looks like an entertaining book. I like this one:

Before man reaches the moon, your mail will be delivered within hours from New York to Austrailia by guided missiled. We stand on the threshold of rocket mail.
Arthur Summerfield, U.S. Postmaster General under Eisenhower in 1959

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Michael Belisle: Why has this not become reality? I demand rocket mail!

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Duke_Newcombe sez íViva la Revolucion de Chihuahua!

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@magic8ball: All your RocketMail are belong to these guys.

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coren

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@Michael Belisle: ROCKET MAIL!!!

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November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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Yeeeeahhh sounds just like all those times I (honestly and sincerely) swore that I will procrastinate less next time, and that I'll start my assignments sooner, and that I'll start preparing sooner for the next mid term.

Does. Not. Happen.

Sure, there will be a certain % who do not go back to buying stuff willy nilly. Good for them. Most of them however will go back to buying stuff, but they will be less likely to overspend or buy excessive crap they do not need. Some others however will just return to their old ways as soon as they are out of this particular hole.

However, I think the biggest permanent effect will be felt on those who just were entering the real world as the crisis was taking over. They are more likely to be more circumspect with their spending long into the future. Especially if they saw what happened to the near-retirees who now cannot retire.

Others... unless their portfolios were permanently damaged, they will slowly drift to their old ways.

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diasdiem

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@MostlyHarmless: Don't knock procrastination. Procrastinators are more responsible. We get nothing done right away at the start and then get our work done. People who get to work right away often don't get any nothing done at all, they just move straight on to the next project after the finish their current one and leave all that nothing-to-do undone. Shameful.

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November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@diasdiem: For a moment, i was like \"what the hell is wrong with this guys grammar\" ... and then i burst out laughing.

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diasdiem

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@MostlyHarmless: Yep. I leave nothing undone, including nothing!

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November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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Nowadays its a matter of pride to say you have no debt. I don't think that will change for a dozen or so years, I hope not anyway!

1 replies

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diasdiem

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@Triterion: Also: I have a good credit score!
Or: I can still get credit!

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November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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sweet,
Cheaper stuff for the rest of us!

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IamBort

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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I would expect many to restrain spending for a while, once things get better and the sentiment of prosperity is in the air, most will likely return to their old habits, its just a matter of time, fundamental character change doesn't happen unless someone consciously makes that choice, instead of having the economy make it for them.

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michigan2cv

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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So now it makes more sense than ever to buy quality products that will last, not because they're on sale at Mall Wart.

1 replies

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Duke_Newcombe sez íViva la Revolucion de Chihuahua!

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@michigan2cv: As long as it's quality stuff you actually need, not just want.

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MJDickPhoto

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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Well, sorry to sound pessimistic about this, but that's about silly sounding. Remember the people that were burning their SUVs as they couldn't pay for gas? Then once the fuel price dropped back to half of what it was, what happened? Over half of the people that were upset with their gas-gusslers went right back to a inefficient vehicle. I've come to the belief that over 75% of us Americans have the memory and attention span of a canary. I've scrimped and saved for 20 years now to buy a house, and I plan on putting down a 50% to 75% down payment on the house when I find it, not relying on my credit to back me and never gamble on what the market may do. I think that if more of us would be self reliant and never buy what we can't pay for in CASH, we could bail this country out quicker. (and my credit is over the 800 mark by doing this)

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sammy_b

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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I'm at such a weird point in my life with this recession - I graduated from college in 2007 and have worked (hard) since then for more money than I've made in my life, even when times were great (because I was in school and working part time)

I've lived frugally while in high school and college and even now to some degree, but I can finally afford the nice, beautiful, quality items that I've always wanted (a $200 watch, for example). To be fair, I saved up and researched, it - it wasn't an impulse buy, but it seems while the rest of the world is hoarding their pennies and shopping at Wal-Mart, I finally have the budget to buy nice things and I'm enjoying it.

Is that bad of me?

2 replies

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bohemian

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@sammy_b: If it is truly a quality watch that will last you a lifetime it was probably far smarter than the typical purchase. Buying something that is useful and will have a long life is a good investment.

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Taint_Too_Proud_To_Beg

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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@sammy_b: I don't think it's bad of you at all. You say you saved up for it - sounds like it should last you for many years, and you're not going into debt to pay for it. I think selective shopping of quality items is smart.

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SadSam

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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We've changed the way we spend money (did this back in 2007) such that we don't use credit card, we have no debt except for our mortgage, and we use a spending plan/allowance system. Do we spend less money? Not that much less, we just spend it differently, like last year I bought a car but I saved up and bought it with cash (and it is a nice car). We take vacations and travel, but again we save up and we set a budget.

I am actually more loyal to companies and shops that treat me well, I will gladly pay more for goods at my local Mom and Pop store where the clerk knows my name and knows what I there to buy. Sadly, most of the big comnpanies, with the exception of Nordstrom, seem to be treating me worse so I have less loyalty for them.

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H3ion

November 13, 2009 4:36 PM

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Take a look at the WWII generation that came through the Depression, your parents and grandparents, and look at their spending habits. I think a lot of the people who've been through this present depression will have very similar spending habits. There's nothing wrong with a nice car or a nice watch, but if you have to go into serious debt for it, you'll buy something else.

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November 13, 2009 4:37 PM

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Am I the only person on here who did NOT spend the last decade spending money like a drunken sailor on leave?? Who bought a house he could actually afford? Who didn't run up big credit card debts? Seriously?

1 replies

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katia802

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@AdvocatesDevil: Nah, I'm in the same boat. Found out about them giving mortgages to dead people long after it all ended. Sigh, me and my cheapskate ways, i'm always late for the parade I guess.

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November 13, 2009 4:37 PM

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Pragmatism, Wants vs Needs...
The new found reduction in free spending ways is something that should have been realized by the populace way long ago.
What this really says, is that some of of us are ahead of the curve in realizing what resourcefulness is about, because we probably don't need 30-40% or more of the useless crap that is purchased.
We have all been suckers of the seductive psychology of advertising that brainwashes the populace into actually believing they want something they don't need.
This consumption model doesn't bid well with sucking up the earth's resources vs surviving the overpopulation equation.

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East_Coast_Midwesterner

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I am one of the fortunate that had a good job and actually got a better job in this craptastic environment. My income increased 30% overnight. I coupled this with a 33% decreased in rent ([by getting a roommate] Boston is expensive living solo).

It is a freaking windfall. I have lived no different and opened some online savings accounts but pretend the money does not exist. I hope to keep putting it away. Hopefully the banks will use my savings to lend and increase the money supply.

Meanwhile, I will continue to return cans for the Nickel and purchase whatever is on sale.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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\"Even worse (for retailers), about a third say they've become less loyal.\"

Well of course they have. Why spend what little money you have at a store or business that's going to rip you off, piss you off or even try to make you sick (I'm talking to you, CVS). I certainly won't. The businesses that do this are going to lose customers hand-over-fist to the ones that treat their customers right.

If there are any left of the latter, that is.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Some people will return to their free spending ways, but there are several factors that will keep spending in check:

1 - Many people are unable to ramp up spending due to job loss or pay cut.

2 - In the same way that homeowners felt rich when housing prices were increasing rapidly, they will feel poor as their home equity continues to evaporate. There is a huge percentage of people who are upside-down on their mortgages. People aren't going to go out and buy jewel encrusted clown noses when they owe the bank 50K more than their house is worth. And that situation is going to last.

3 - With the blow to housing prices and 401ks, working people will need to boost their savings to repair household balance sheets/retirement savings.

4 - The next generation is learning their lesson, too. There are millions of kids whose families are currently going through foreclosures and bankruptcies. They are having to move, leave schools and friends, and participate as their families cut back on everything. For anyone experiencing this directly or indirectly, their spending habits and attitude towards debt will be affected for decades to come.

The above is why I don't believe anything like a robust recovery is coming any time soon. The consumer (70-ish percent of the economy) is tapped out, unemployed, having credit lines cut, still losing home equity, needs to boost savings, etc. If consumer spending stays flat or only increases slightly, it will be next to impossible for the remaining 30% of the economy to create the sustained 3% or higher GDP growth we need to bring the unemployment rate down.

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CountryChick

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I was raised in a conservative family, ergo, I developed financial habits that have me feeling very grateful in today's economic mess. My spouse & I don't claim to be above a spending spree from time to time, but they are few and far between, and only when bills are paid and there is a substantial emergency fund at hand.

Exploring different ways to keep more of our earnings is a practice that I have come to enjoy as a game - a proposition that is win/win for us.

We use credit cards, and will take advantage of a \"6 mos. no interest same as cash\" promotion in a heartbeat, but when the date arrives to pay up or pay interest, the amount is paid in full.

I hope that after the economy has stabilized, many will indeed come to realize that \"things\" are not what is really important for happiness, and will come to be at ease and enjoy a simpler and less expensive lifestyle.

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