11 replies

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Mythandros

@AirIntake:

I say call the cops, go back to the store, talk to the manager (Not some dumb supervisor under the sway of the big, mean security guard.) Tell them that if they don't pay you BACK your money AND issue a PUBLIC apology, that you will press kidnapping charges (the supervisor blocking the door has NO right to keep you from leaving if you're not being charged with anything, that's unlawfull detainment, hence kidnapping.) harassment charges and extortion charges.

That should get the (obviously corrupt) security guard fired AND also threaten physical assault charges if he so much as laid a finger on you.

This should get the attention of the store management pretty quickly, and get your situation resolved even faster.

Peice of mind = raising hell at a store that you have more than frequently visited and has broken several laws and damaged your rights.

By the way, I am NOT a lawyer. Please take this advice at face value.

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Consumerist-Moderator-Roz

@AirIntake: Please, no all caps posts.

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AirIntake

@Consumerist-Moderator-Roz: So disemvoweled caps look better to you? Alright.....

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joshua70448

@AirIntake: I think it's more of an incentive not to use all caps, rather than to improve the appearance of the post. She doesn't want to remove the post because of the responses, so that's the next best thing to do.

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NatalieErin

@AirIntake: She paid because she was scared.

This is one place where, even though the OP made mistakes, I can't criticize her. An almost identical thing happened to me when I was a teenager. I made the decisions I made because I was terrified and had no idea what my rights were.

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korybing

@NatalieErin: Exactly. She was scared and trying to do the right thing. She just wanted the business to be over with and didn't realize until afterwards when the fear wasn't so overwhelming that what happened was weird. Not everybody can act level-headed in a confusing situation. I've made plenty of mistakes in the name of \"just get it over with so I can get out of this situation\" that I later beat myself up over because if I had just calmed down and looked at what was going on I would have realized that I could have done something smarter. I don't blame the OP at all for what she did, even if it's going to cause her headaches later.

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Shadowman615

@AirIntake: OP made a huge mistake here allowing the Security Guard to talk her into signing. Don't believe everything some security guard tells you. If the police came, most likely you would not have had to pay anything, and certainly you would not have been embarrassed in front of your neighbors.

They were LYING to you trying to scare you into paying and you fell for the scam.

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Difdi

@Shadowman615: If you walk up to a random stranger, and threaten to file a false police report unless they pay you $150, that is the crime of extortion. Why do corporations get a free pass on this?

On the other hand, the OP shares some liability here too. Not closing the merchandise box. Not checking to make sure nothing had slipped inside. Obeying a receipt checker then going back into the store. Signing a confession, that admits to shoplifting they didn't do. Paying $150 after signing a confession for something they didn't do.

It makes me wonder, would they have signed over their car if the security guard had demanded it of them?

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thisistobehelpful

@Difdi: Does shoplifting require the thief to leave the store? I realize that she didn't shoplift, but by the sound of it she hadn't actually left the store with any unpaid merchandise. She stopped at the receipt checker and even if she said she was going to \"come back in and pay for them.\"

I wonder if the security jerk was the one who grabbed her cart and walked away with it. She should probably call the cops and the headquarters of the store about this.

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thisistobehelpful

@thisistobehelpful: Learn to finish sentences...

She stopped at the receipt checker and even if she said she was going to \"come back in and pay for them\" she had to have still be inside the store if her receipt was being checked.

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settsu

@thisistobehelpful: Learn to not be a dick.

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mon0zuki

@settsu: I had the initial same reaction - but take a closer look. thisistobehelpful is responding to -their own post-. (:

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KittensRCute!

@AirIntake:
seriously that was my first thought. and why did she sign something without reading it??? WHY???

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AirIntake

@AirIntake: Sorry, but if that happened to me, I'd be calling the cops, on them.

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TechnoDestructo

@AirIntake:

If that happened to me, they'd be calling the fire department, on me.

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sonneillon

@TechnoDestructo: I approve. Soon my pet I will feed the world to you.

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Taed

@AirIntake: They answered that: \"We run a professional business and I would never want to risk my reputation by being hauled out of Menards in front of everyone by the police.\"

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acasto

WHAT and WHY did you sign? I would really be interested in knowing what exactly was in the document they had them sign and why they wouldn't give them a copy of it. Did it contain an admission of guilt? Did they ban them from store? My wife is from Wisconsin, not far from Janesville. Now I know to stay away from Menards next time I'm up there.

7 replies

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fett387

@acasto: This doesn't add up. Is this a fake story? I would think that someone that owns a business would know better than to sign papers of which they don't have copies. Plus, why would an honest person be worried about having the police called on them? If they didn't steal, then there would be no evidence (i.e. video of them hiding the drill bits in the box). To many other questions...

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ludwigk

@acasto: If someone asked me to sign something, which they would not give me a copy of, and demand that I pay some sort of fine, *I* would be the one calling the police. Someone who is paying $300 for hardware is not going to attempt to steal $6 worth of bits.

I would take this STRAIGHT to the local news because \"Menards\" is CLEARLY extorting hush money from its customers.

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Corporate_guy

@ludwigk: It is a risk. The item was stolen. Depending on the cop you could be validly charged. It just depends on how much the cop wants to believe intent and if the cop is willing to accept it.

Cops most of the time will use the excuse that it is not their job to interpret the law when they make obvious mistakes. But this is one instance where that excuse enables them to arrest you for shoplifting.

Most likely a good cop would just try to talk the idiot store out of it, but if they really want you arrested, you will probably be arrested.

Then you get to tell your story to a judge. This means you have to go to court and pay for a lawyer. No matter how innocent you are if you show up without a lawyer you will be found guilty.

Fighting this after signing stuff is also pointless. The paperwork probably says if you sue them or reverse the 150 dollar fee, they will report you to the police. The police will charge you because the paperwork probably says you admit to theft. Then a lawyer cannot even save you in court.

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bairdwallace

@Corporate_guy: \"No matter how innocent you are if you show up without a lawyer you will be found guilty.\"

That does not sound right to me...

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DollaValueLIFO

@Corporate_guy: Theft involves intent, you know that, right?

Also, real cops hate, HATE, loss prevention personnel. If a cop has to waste any time on this kind of issue, particularly where the accused demonstrates a desire to pay for the item and a reasonable story, the cop is likely to just roll his eyes and tell LP to suck it.

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Difdi

@ludwigk: This reminds me of the guy who was \"busted\" for shoplifting a used pencil.

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QuantumRiff

@acasto: I go to one of the two East Madison's Menards all the time. This kind of crap makes me look more and more at Home depot, which sits right across the street.

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Franklin Comes Alive!

@AirIntake:

Agreed, the proper response here is to call (or at least threaten to call) 911 and report false imprisonment.

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Franklin Comes Alive!

@Franklin Comes Alive!:

Whoops, meant to respond to an earlier post, weird. Anyway, point still valid.

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leftturnonred

Isn't it illegal to make somebody pay you money so that they will not call the cops? Even just making you pay for bits almost sounds like it would be illegal, but then the added 140-or-so dollars seems like something illegal.

8 replies

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bravo369

@leftturnonred: sounds like what the RIAA does. Pay even though they have no evidence.

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jparadise

@leftturnonred:

I had to pay TJX over $200 to get out of a criminal charge for a, er, regrettable decision on my part. This is standard business. It's not fair, but, it's standard.

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TCama

@leftturnonred: Ehh, it's more like a pre-trial settlement. Or at least it can be seen as such, if you really wanted it to.

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qwerty001984

@TCama:
If they dont let you leave it is extortion.

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allknowingtomato

@TCama: No, it's not a pre-trial settlement. Calling the cops would be to report shoplifting, a crimial offense. Requesting $$ in exchange for not calling the cops is extortion. Requesting $$ in exchange for not filing a civil suit would be a settlement.

Did the OP pay the bribe with a credit card? get them to take the money back.

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LegalBill

@allknowingtomato: You are absolutely right--this is a classic case of extortion or blackmail. The crime is not demanding the money. The crime is theatening to report the crime, regardless of whether the action to be reported was a crime or not, in exchange for gaining something of value or obtaining a civil advantage. On fact, the most common examples of extortion involve threats to report the absolute truth. Take the David Letterman case. If the reporter that threatened to report his afairs had just reported them, no crime would have occured (in fact, the First Amendment would have protected the reporter from defamantion claim). However, once the reporter threatened to report IF Letterman failed to pay money, then the crime of extortion occured. Like in the Letterman case, it doesn't matter that the store otherwise had a right to report the crime.

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Falcon5768

@CaptZ: nice hidden swipe asswipe.

BTW, there is an app for that, and it comes with the phone pre-loaded.

douch.

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kc8dhx

@TCama:

Its called a civil demand and is perfectly legal in most states for use with shoplifters

[en.wikipedia.org]

Its not extortion at all folks...

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qwerty001984

@kc8dhx:
It is illegal if they hold you against your will.

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SatanicGuinea

@kc8dhx: Right, declaring that something is legal magically makes it NOT extortion!

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Difdi

@kc8dhx: Actually, going by that wikipedia article, it probably isn't legal.

The store didn't send the OP a letter making a civil demand, they did it in person, while acting in a threatening manner, and threatened to call the police if the demand was not met. Further, they promised a conviction on a charge not yet made, and threatened a greater penalty for not signing right away. THAT is very definitely extortion, not a civil demand.

The store didn't seek civil damages against the OP for shoplifting, they extorted money so that the store wouldn't call the police.

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ludwigk

@kc8dhx: Yes, but unless shoplifting is somehow a strict liability crime in this jurisdiction, how are they going to charge for the crime? Without some showing of intent, its not a crime, its a mistake.

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Wombatish

@ludwigk: It's resitution. You admit you shoplifted when you pay it. On the books in... 40 states iirc?

And they're allowed to multiply the amount b/c the item lost value by being stolen or some bullshit.

I paid it once when I was young and stupider for a DVD a cashier forgot to ring up.

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thisistobehelpful

@Wombatish: The item wasn't removed from the store if she only got so far as the receipt checker. Does anyone know if you can be charged with shoplifting if you haven't left yet?

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Wombatish

@thisistobehelpful: Yes, you can.

They usually stop you right on the edge of the stores property so it's easy to prove intent (you were clearly leaving) but untrained store personnel are allowed to stop you on store property. They can't detain you on someone else's property.

The magical zone is past the registers but before the parking lot (very few stores own/rent the parking lot as well, it belongs to the management company).

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billy

@Wombatish: In my jurisdiction, you can be stopped if you move past the \"last point of sale\" or, the check out lanes.

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Wombatish

@Wombatish: And yes, it's a civil issue. They can still press charges if they choose to even if you pay.

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qwerty001984

@Wombatish:
Press charges???

It is up to the DA to charge regardless if you do something call \"press charges\". People watch too many movies.

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Difdi

@Wombatish: And if you do pay, you are in essence, signing a confession of shoplifting. This would tend to make it easier to get a conviction for a criminal shoplifting charge.

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floraposte

@ludwigk: My IANAL guess is that since they're approaching it as a civil issue, whether or not they could actually charge for the crime may not be relevant.

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ecwis

@leftturnonred: Yep, sounds like extortion to me.

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ergasiophobiac

Second mistake: Signing the paperwork and not having the cops come. If they'd had a reasonable police officer come, they'd likely have walked away with little to no issues. At the worst they would have been ticketed and could have contested it in court. I would bet money that the papers she signed waived every right she had available to contest this.

4 replies

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ecwis

@ergasiophobiac: IANAL but aren't coerced contracts invalid?

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shadowkahn

@ergasiophobiac: Yes, Ecwis. She signed under duress. It's invalid. Sue the SOB's.

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billy

@shadowkahn: AFAIK, the threat of calling the police is not \"duress\". When you sign a contract (which is, essentially, what she did), you can usually only claim duress if there is a physical threat.

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bwcbwc

@billy: Wouldn't the detainment/false imprisonment be a physical threat in and of itself.

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billy

@bwcbwc: *if* she was being falsely detained, then yes. But stores DO, normally, have the right to reasonable detainment if they suspect that you've been stealing.

Again, her choice was sign the admission and pay OR call the police. As others have asked, why didn't she just call the police?

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joshua70448

@billy: Well, threatening to call the police (with the implied hauling out in front of friends and neighbors) sounds like a threat to their reputation, which could hurt their business. So sure, there wasn't physical threat, but there was an implied monetary threat (plus the threat of paying more fines to the police if they didn't sign).

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billy

@joshua70448: >>>Well, threatening to call the police (with the implied hauling out in front of friends and neighbors) sounds like a threat to their reputation, which could hurt their business.

What you are arguing, though, is that a store (or police, for that matter) would NEVER be able to detain anybody if they reasonably believed she was stealing. I'm premising my argument on the fact that stores CAN detain you if they believe you are stealing. As others have pointed out, many jurisdictions DO allow some self help in this form.

If she was so worried about her reputation, she could have called the police and had them sort it out. Even if the police didn't believe her, it's a little too bad. She could, then, sort it out in front of a judge: that's what they are there for. As it stands now, she signed a document admitting (I'm assuming) that she stole something. How does that help her reputation?

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billy

@joshua70448: If the store honestly believes that she stole something, they CAN call the police whether she signs something or not. Therefore, the threat of calling the police is not duress. She probably signed an admission that she stole something in lieu of them calling the police. The choice was hers and she chose not to exercise her right to have the police sort this out.

If I saw somebody stealing something out of my house and I told them, \"give it back or I'll call the police,\" would they be \"under duress\" if they actually gave it back?

Duress is, \"sign this or I'll break your legs\"...literally.

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shadowkahn

@billy: \"give it back or I'll call the police\" is materially different than \"give it back, and pay me $150 or I'll call the police,\" and I suspect you know that. Stop trolling.

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billy

@shadowkahn: For my purposes (explaining \"duress\"), they aren't really different.

If you think otherwise, please feel free....

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Taelech

@billy: such as imprisonment and the only way of getting free is signing?

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billy

@Taelech: Stores are allowed to reasonably detain people if they believe they are stealing. If the law is as others have said it is (that the store can do some self help in the form of a signed agreement and payment) then I'm not sure how this is \"imprisonment\". If she didn't want to sign, the store would either 1) let her go; or 2) call the cops and let them sort it out.

If she refused to sign and the store didn't do either of the above-two options, THEN I'd say she's imprisoned or falsely imprisoned.

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billy

@Taelech: Calling the police does not equal automatic imprisonment. Remember, the police don't have to make an arrest. Even if they DO make an arrest, it's not an indication of legal liability.

November 13, 2009 4:37 PM

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Mythandros

@billy:
You're missing the point, Billy.

They were sat down in the security room with the security guard behind his desk and another store employee \"guarding\" the door.

This is kidnapping.

Unless you are in an interview room WITH THE POLICE and being charged with a crime, in which case this is not illegal. ANY other circumstance and this becomes DURESS as you are being PHYSICALLY prevented from leaving even though there are no charges being filed (The security guard said no when they asked if they are being charged. At the moment the security guard said no, they were no longer under ANY obligation to stay in that room. If they say someone was guarding the door, that's FALSE IMPRISONMENT, hence kidnapping. This is a VERY serious charge.)

Last I checked, rent-a-cops do not have the legal right to detain ANYONE against their will. They are not the police.

If that guard had detained me, I would have essentially told him \"Either you let me go now and leave with the merchandise I paid for, or I will call the police myself and file charges against YOU personally AND the company. What's your decision?\"

Very simple.. and had the op said something to that effect, the guard would have changed his tune.. FAST.

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billy

@Mythandros: BTW: this is a really good article summing up the lay of the land:
[www.civildemand.net]

I'm making the assumption that all of this applies in this situation.

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billy

@Mythandros: Frankly, I'm not missing the point.

This lady posted a one-sided story (on Craigslist, no less) and her version of it is spotty at best.

Intimidation? Physically prevented from leaving? Not based on what she posted. She may have felt intimidated...but is it the legal definition of intimidation? She didn't even try to leave. She *assumed* she couldn't leave. The person \"guarding\" the door could have just as easily stepped aside. Therefore, no false imprisonment.

Besides, as I've mentioned repeatedly (and you seem to ignore by your \"rent-a-cops\" comment, so check again), there is such a thing as the shopkeeper's privilege. If the guards believed she stole something, they are allowed to use reasonable means to keep her there. To be sure, they can only do it until cops come, but, frankly, I'm not going to put my trust in her one-sided story and, therefore, It's not entirely clear what happened.

Did they threaten her? She didn't mention it. It's not duress (not the legal definition, anyway).

>>> \"Either you let me go now and leave with the merchandise I paid for, or I will call the police myself and file charges against YOU personally AND the company. What's your decision?\"

RIGHT! But she didn't do that, did she? She assumed the worst, signed something without reading it, and paid money with no questions asked. That's on her. She agreed to it. Per many other posts, the civil demand is legal (and I believe it, too. It makes sense considering that one may settle a case at any time before a civil judgment).

On the other hand, why do you think they would have changed their tune? If she didn't agree to the civil demand, I would have called the cops.

I guess it comes down to this: if the guards actually believe that she stole the bits (and there's really no indication from this woman that they wouldn't believe that), AND there is such thing as the shopkeeper's privilege (and there is), AND if there's such a thing as civil demand, Menards didn't do anything wrong.

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ergasiophobiac

@ergasiophobiac: In fact, I would have said something along the lines of, \"If you have reason to call the police, call them. Otherwise I will.\" I'm certain the tune would have changed after that. A threat to call the police is usually a bluff in a situation like this. If the store actually had the evidence to back up their claim, they would have just called the police.

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Ohpine

The solution is ridiculously simple...

You look him square in the eye and say \"Don't bother Sir\", and you pull out your cellular phone and call the police immediately. You tell them exactly what happened and that the security personal at this store has just tried to extort you out of $150 (Extortion is a felony).

You watch his eyes go as wide as saucers, and all of the colour drain out of his face, perhaps he'll be even more stupid and make a grab for your phone, at which point he'll be taking on a second misdemeanor for trying to prevent you from contacting the police in an emergency.

This is a pretty dicey game these morons are playing, I'll wager the person who dropped those bits into the box is the same person who stole your cart... and my wager is that they're either working with the store in loss prevention, or they're working with this asshat in his scheme.

6 replies

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harvey_birdman

@Ohpine: Except you are taking an awful risk that the security guard isn't A) an off duty cop, B) a relative of whatever uneducated police officer shows up, or C) an freaking lunatic who will break your phone, physically assault you and then claim you resisted his \"lawful detention\".

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qcgallus

@harvey_birdman: On this subject (this lunatic), I have an honest question.

If one has a permit to carry a firearm, and they were detained in such a way, does anyone know if it would be lawful to draw a weapon? I mean this in the cases where the security/LP person makes an effort to detain you after you have said \"good day.\" As I understand the laws, and as a person would feel in such a situation (beign with a security guard and having someone else \"guard\" the door) it would not be illegal to draw a pistol on someone preventing you from leaving.

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Crim Law Geek

@qcgallus:
You'd be taking an awful risk. Being held against your will may be a valid reason to use deadly force in your state, but if that holding is legitimate (i.e. to prevent a crime or as part of a valid arrest), then the use of deadly force is not allowed.

For example, I'm not allowed to pull a gun out on a cop who does the same while arresting me, since the cop is acting within the law. The same goes if you replace the cop with anyone else making a lawful arrest (i.e. someone making a citizen's arrest).

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qcgallus

@Crim Law Geek: That makes sense.

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RPHP

@qcgallus: I think it matters where you are but to threaten deadly force when no deadly force is used against you would in many cases not be allowed.

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XTC46

@Ohpine: no, they were her bits. She says so. The guy grabbing her cart probabaly was just a guy who grabbed the wrong cart, ive done this before and have had it done to me before.

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bohemian

@Ohpine: Sounds like a pretty lucrative racket. $150 for every person you scare the crap out of.

They need to get in contact with Menard's corporate or even better go file a police report for extortion. Had a cop actually shown up and heard the entire story and the instance that the items were in the cart they are probably going to try to talk the store manager out of pressing charges.

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shadowkahn

@Ohpine:

\"at which point he'll be taking on a second misdemeanor for trying to prevent you from contacting the police in an emergency.\"

Plus assault for lunging at you, and battery for laying a hand on you or any equipment connected to your person (namely the phone).

And don't forget false arrest, false accusation, slander, false imprisonment, and theft (of the $150), because having worked security at Menards while putting myself through college, I can tell you that this is not standard procedure for busting shoplifters.

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jc364

@shadowkahn: Unfortunately, I don't see anything that Menards could be charged with. (but then again, IANAL.)

First of all, Menards had the 5 point checklist they need to accuse someone of shoplifting. The need to witness: 1) customer entering the store, 2) taking the item in question, 3) hiding the item, 4) walk past the point of sale without paying for the item, 5) attempting to leave the establishment. From the article, it sounds like they had at least numbers 2 through 5.

False arrest, false accusation, and slander aren't applicable, since they did in fact take an item without paying for it. And the store has the right to detain customers when there is sufficient evidence of shoplifting.

Now, are they being complete jerks by doing all of this? Absolutely, no question. But I don't know if there's anything that can be done about it (legally). Maybe I'm wrong.

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huadpe

@jc364: Extortion. They attempted to extort them into paying $150 to not call the cops. That's a crime.

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Wombatish

@huadpe: It's restitution. Even if they recover the item, if you \"stole\" it, they can demand it from you. And send it to collections if you fail to pay.

(I am assuming the law in Wisconsin is similar to the Texas law).

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Difdi

@Wombatish: A civil demand for restitution is so that they don't sue you in a civil court. That's legal, although doing it in person (rather than mailing a letter, as most statutes require) meets the legal definition of extortion (\"pay or we sue you\" is among the legal definitions of the crime of extortion).

Demanding $150 so that they don't call the police? That is definitely extortion, which is a crime every bit as serious as shoplifting. Absent proof of intent to steal, the OP didn't shoplift in any case.

[en.wikipedia.org]

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floraposte

@Difdi: Does it really meet extortion, though? Can't a store opt out of criminal charges based on somebody's participation in civil restitution?

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shadowkahn

@floraposte: Restitution means making the store whole again. If someone steals $5 worth of drill bits, then making the store whole would involve the thief either giving the drill bits back (new and unopened) or paying the store $5, or a combination of the two (giving them back the drill bits after they've been opened, and 15% less than $5 for the restocking discount the store will have to apply to resell them again).

This goon asked for $150. Not $5. He's not going for restitution. He's looking to get money out of her. And since he obtained that money by threatening her with the cops, it's extortion. Not restitution.

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RPHP

@floraposte: I don't know what you are talking about? Can a store opt out of being charged with a crime? Difdi is right - it is extortion, if the DA wants to press criminal charges the store can't opt out just by saying someone paid civil restitution (which if you read other comments this is pretty clearly not restitution).

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Wombatish

@Difdi: The law also says that they have to attach a copy of the statue regarding civil demand. They never do.

And since it's considered a debt, they just send it to collection if you don't pay. And the police are not going to take your complaint based on the format of their letter... the worst you could do is get them in trouble with the Bar.

In this case, it's a little different, since it did happen in person, but technically that paperwork she signed was probably the civil demand paperwork.

While I agree that civil demand blows chunks (it's being abused at this point.. it's supposed to be for -actual- shoplifting and -actual- damages, not padding your bottom line), it would all be on the up and up. It just has to be a written demand, not a letter.

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RPHP

@Wombatish: I am confused with your \"And since it's considered a debt, they just send it to collection if you don't pay\" remark. If they think you shoplifted and are making a demand for you to pay money they can not just send it off to collections. They first have to file a civil suit, get a judgment, and then they can send it to collections.

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Wombatish

@RPHP: They can make a civil demand without a judgement, at least in Wisconsin and Texas.

And if you don't pay a civil demand, it's sent to collections.

You have literally no chance to fight these things off, other than to not sign the paperwork.

But unless you expressly know your rights, you will probably be scared into doing just that. That's what they bank on.

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Reeve

@Wombatish: True but that does not mean they can do anything but try to collect the debt (ie under the Fair Debt Collections Act they can not \"collect\" but they can try to collect ie they can not contact third parties, garnish your wages, get to your bank account, or report false information to a credit agency). Note the last item - report false information to a credit agency - if you accidentally took a $5 item all you really owe is $5 - they can not claim you owe the $150 or whatever else without a judgment.

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floraposte

@huadpe: Yet the civil demand approach seems pretty established (I hadn't heard of it until this post either, but searching found a ton of stuff, like this: [www.boston.com]). I don't know whether it would make any difference that they were right on site in the store rather than getting a letter later, as seems to be more common, but I'm betting not.

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ivanthemute

@jc364: That's interesting, because Wisconsin state laws is pretty clear on this. And the 5 point checklist, plus the behavior of the 'security' staffer in question is in direct conflict with the law. To whit:

943.50 Retail theft. (1) In this section:
(a) \"Merchant\" includes any \"merchant\" as defined in s.
402.104 (3) or any innkeeper, motelkeeper or hotelkeeper.
(ar) \"Theft detection device\" means any tag or other device that is used to prevent or detect theft and that is attached to merchandise held for resale by a merchant or to property of a merchant.
(as) \"Theft detection device remover\" means any tool or
device used, designed for use or primarily intended for use in removing a theft detection device from merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.
(at) \"Theft detection shielding device\" means any laminated or coated bag or device designed to shield merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant from being detected by an electronic or magnetic theft alarm sensor.
(b) \"Value of merchandise\" means:
1. For property of the merchant, the value of the property; or
2. For merchandise held for resale, the merchant's stated price of the merchandise or, in the event of altering, transferring or removing a price marking or causing a cash register or other sales device to reflect less than the merchant's stated price, the difference between the merchant's stated price of the merchandise and the altered price.
(1m) A person may be penalized as provided in sub. (4) if he or she does any of the following without the merchant's consent and with intent to deprive the merchant permanently of possession or the full purchase price of the merchandise or property:
(a) Intentionally alters indicia of price or value of merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.
(b) Intentionally takes and carries away merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.
(c) Intentionally transfers merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.
(d) Intentionally conceals merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.
(e) Intentionally retains possession of merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.
(f) While anywhere in the merchant's store, intentionally removes a theft detection device from merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.
(g) Uses, or possesses with intent to use, a theft detection shielding device to shield merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of merchant from being detected by an electronicor magnetic theft alarm sensor.
(h) Uses, or possesses with intent to use, a theft detection device remover to remove a theft detection device from merchandise held for resale by a merchant or property of a merchant.

(3) A merchant, a merchant's adult employee or a merchant's security agent who has reasonable cause for believing that a person has violated this section in his or her presence may detain the person in a reasonable manner for a reasonable length of time to
deliver the person to a peace officer, or to his or her parent or guardian in the case of a minor. The detained person must be promptly informed of the purpose for the detention and be permitted to make phone calls, but he or she shall not be interrogated or searched against his or her will before the arrival of a peace officer
who may conduct a lawful interrogation of the accused person. The merchant, merchant's adult employee or merchant's security agent may release the detained person before the arrival of a peace officer or parent or guardian. Any merchant, merchant's adult employee or merchant's security agent who acts in good faith in
any act authorized under this section is immune from civil or criminal liability for those acts.

So especially with regards to section 3, they did interrogate, accost, hold without notice, and coerce the op. Further, good luck proving intent in this case. The Op should have called the cops, the security goon for Menards should have been hauled away, and everyone should have gone their own way.

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H3ion

@ivanthemute: There's a magic word in the Wisconsin statute you quoted and that word is \"intentionally.\" To be guilty of a crime involving theft, there has to be intention to commit the crime. If someone slips a box of drill bits in my jacket pocket, and I don't know about it, legally I have not committed a crime (although I'd better pay for or return the item as soon as I know about it). In the OP's case, I think any reasonable police officer would have recognized that here were people who just paid for $300 worth of merchandise and it was more than likely that the bits were a slip-up. The OP should have insisted that the store security call the police but how many people without legal training would know to do that?

They do have a right to see what they signed and to get a copy. I would call the store manager for that.

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ivanthemute

@H3ion: Oh, I know. That's what I meant regarding the fact that Menard's didn't meet the minimum standards for what would be classed as shoplifting. Intent is the key, and that's where situations like this and the Wal-mart one earlier this week that drives me nuts. Shoplifting, throw the sucker under a bus. Honest mistake? Pay the bill and move on.

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shadowkahn

@jc364: ahh, but, they didn't arrest (i.e. detain) these people for the reasons you say. They nabbed the people in order to extort money out of them. Because the reason for the arrest was to commit a felony, all those above charges do, in fact, apply.

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howie_in_az

If anyone accuses you of anything and tries to strong-arm you into doing something, tell them to die in a fire and call the cops yourself. Don't pay some stupid ransom and certainly don't hand over your personal information to them.

Some security guy gets in your face and accuses you of something? Whip out your cell phone and say you'd like to record this incident on video to prevent any miscommunications.

Rent-a-cop sticks you in a room? Start calling corporate offices and news stations. Get names, badge numbers, employee ID numbers, everything you can think of.

2 replies

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trujunglist

@CaptZ:

Do you even know what the god phone has or are you just assuming like a moron

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bohemian

@howie_in_az: Nobody is sticking me in a room in a store for any reason. If your not leaving the store you should be ok until the cops arrive. Trying to force someone physically into a back room sounds probably illegal. If in such a situation I would want the cops called and the store security would have to hog tie me if they want to drag me off somewhere. I want witnesses to whatever they think they are going to pull.

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CaptZ

I would have gone with the cops and told the cops what they offered me. I use my cell phone to record coversations just like this. All cell phones now days have a voice recorder....except maybe the god-phone.....

6 replies

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bwcbwc

@CaptZ: If you live in a state where recordings require all parties to consent, you could be subjecting yourself to illegal wiretapping/recording charges. It doesn't have to be a phone conversation.

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DH405

@CaptZ: I suppose you sarcastically mean the iPhone. Apple has a built-in app for voice recording. Nice failed attempt at a jab.

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SatanicGuinea

@DH405: Fanboi alert! Defends the iPhone as if it were his family.

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Englishee Teacher

@DH405: Nope, failed reply mechanism to a previous post's (hopefully) typo.

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Geblah187

@CaptZ: You only managed to catch one seething iphone fanboy ... but the day is not quite over :)

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leprofie

@CaptZ: god-phone has an app for that.

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aybara

Biggest mistake was paying anything.

Let the cops come. The accused was more than willing to pay for an 'oversight'.

The store should've let them pay and left it at that.

But I would've called the cops on the obvious extortion the store was pulling.

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AustinTXProgrammer

The poster should sue them. Whatever they had her sign (and refused to provide copies of) can be thrown out because they had her sign under duress.

Of course one would have to retain council to make sure that the bogus charges can't come back to haunt, but I bet they would fold very quickly and settle for attorneys fees and even some damages.

2 replies

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godlyfrog

@AustinTXProgrammer: My question is; how did she pay the $150? Did she pay cash? If so, she has no way of proving she even paid. For all we know, that paper she signed got shredded and two employees just split a $150 off-the-books bonus with no one being the wiser.

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holytrainwreck

@AustinTXProgrammer: Counsel, not \"council\".

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YouDidWhatNow?

Call the cops yourself. Make the \"security\" guy and whoever else on Menard's side wait for the cop to arrive. I'm sure they'd be coming up with any excuse they could to leave before the cops got there.

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BklynHotniss

I understand why you complied. It wasn't the \"protecting my civil rights\" right thing to do but you were afraid and did not want to cause a stir. My advice to you is to now call an attorney. A huge one that can guarantee you some sort of victory. Do not use a single item you purchased and preserve your receipt. Do this quickly. Hopefully the lawyer will suggest you file a police report. I would also be concerned about getting the video footage from inside and outside the store before they chuck it. Protect yourself. You never know when this thing could come back and bite you or your family later. Good Luck!

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organicgardener

OMFG...why did you do that? Why didn't you just tell them \"Go ahead & call the police! I did NOT steal anything!\" Then explain to the police when they get there. Besides, at only $5.99 - especially when you bought all of the other stuff - I sincerely doubt they'd have done anything.

You (1) signed something that they wouldn't even give you a copy of and (2) gave them $150? I'm sorry, but that wouldn't fly for 1 second with me!

2 replies

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organicgardener

@organicgardener: Slap me for not reading it correctly the first time. That whole cart-grabbing thing is WAY suspect. It was a scam! Loss prevention split the $150, and that's why you didn't get a copy of anything. You should still call the police - on THEM. They can see what happened on the security video.

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SatanicGuinea

@organicgardener: Assuming that they didn't destroy the tapes.

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G.O.B.: Come on!

She should have told the rent-a-cop to go fuck himself and call a real cop when he was done.
Unless the police that would have arrived were as ridiculously stupid as the store, it would have gone like so:

1. Police arrives and gets the explanation from asshole mall-cop and whatever likewise store manager is on hand.
2. The couple explains that they paid for $300 in goods; why would they bother stealing $5.99 in drill bits?
3. (Increasingly un)common sense prevails...(?)

6 replies

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holytrainwreck

@G.O.B.: Come on!: The rent-a-cop could fuck himself with the drill bits! Now, that's convenience.

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katstermonster

@G.O.B.: Come on!: #2 is a very important point. Why the HELL would they bother?

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Lez Lemon

@katstermonster: People are often nutburgers. Working in retail is eye-opening. They'll do anything they can.

My store wouldn't even mark stuff down if it had stains on it, because people would bring stuff in to PUT stains on the stuff they wanted.

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Saboth

@katstermonster:

I've also seen/heard of people helping themselves to \"freebies\"...people eating some grapes in the grocery store, grabbing a few little items here and there when making a big purchase because they think they are entitled to something just because they are a regular shopper or are making a big $ purchase that day.

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bbagdan

@Saboth:

Grapes are expensive. It's only prudent to try one before buying a bunch.

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Toffeecake

@bbagdan: Plus, many grocery stores sell grapes by the bag, not by weight.

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@katstermonster: You'd be amazed. I once had a lady by $120 in groceries, and while checking her out, I noticed on the flyer in her cart some of those clear/gold stickers they put on glasses that they sell in stores. So I took a good look at the lady, and the pair she was wearing still had a sticker on the lens. She took a pair off the display, and was trying to wear them out of the store. They were $9.99, but she was still trying to walk off in them. I NEVER accept that excuse when it comes to shoplifters, because I have seen in on more than one occasion, including the one above, in my years in retail.

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Moosenogger

@GitEmSteveDave_OverSleptThisMorn: Sometimes people buy a lot because it makes them feel better about stealing. \"Well, I'm paying them $120 for all this other stuff, so it isn't bad if I just steal these $10 glasses!\"

It's bargaining with yourself.

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hypochondriac

@GitEmSteveDave_OverSleptThisMorn:

The lady took off the stickers so she was trying to steal them but something similar happened to my mom. She forgot her glasses at home. So when she went to the store one of the employees told her she could use the store glasses. She finished her shopping and forgot she was wearing the Stores glasses and not her's until the Person at the cash register asked if she wanted to buy those as well.

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Chris Walters

@GitEmSteveDave_OverSleptThisMorn: Yeah, people of all income levels steal for all sorts of weird little reasons--thrill of it, weird compulsion, acting out anger issues, whatever. I don't get the \"I bought x hundred dollars so there's no way I could also be a shoplifter!\" excuse.

But if you're not a shoplifter, stay the hell out of those back rooms.

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jc364

@Chris Walters: It reminds me of someone I know in loss prevention who caught a city official stealing a food item from Walmart... There was absolutely no reason for the guy to steal, he had plenty of money. I guess some people just feel entitled, or are just bored and want to see what they can get away with.

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frodolives35

@GitEmSteveDave_OverSleptThisMorn:2 weeks ago I walked out of walmart with a $12 pair of reading glasses hanging from my shirt. I had left mine in the car and had \"borrowed them to read a medicine label. I discovered them when I put my sealtbelt on and promptly returned them to the greeter at the door. I don't know who was more surprised.

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Toffeecake

@frodolives35: Last year, I accidentally stole a small package of beads from Michaels. I had my baby sleeping in her carrier inside the cart, and when I went to put other stuff in the cart, the beads fell in between her and the carrier. I didn't realize they were there until we got home and I took her out, and I was too embarrassed to bring them back to the store.... :/ It feels nice to confess though.

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oneandone

@Toffeecake: That reminds me of My Cousin Vinny (with the tuna fish cans in the pocket). Good thing you didn't end up on trial for murder!

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@frodolives35: @hypochondriac: This lady went through the process of pulling the stickers off the glasses though, and when confronted pretended she didn't know until the stickers were pointed out. THEN she remembered.

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floraposte

@GitEmSteveDave_OverSleptThisMorn: I can get that people do try to steal small on top of paying big, but I think a store that doesn't allow for the possibility of accident with a regular customer is going to lose itself more money than it saves.

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bohemian

@katstermonster: and in the cart.

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DanKelley98

I'd find out from Menards corporate whether this is their policy or the \"policy\" of the security guard.

As others said, I would have called the cops myself right away - and refused to hand over any money.

Did you pay cash or credit?

1 replies

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SacraBos

@DanKelley98: That was my thought. If it was credit - issue a chargeback on the $150.

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ganzhimself

Well, I know where I won't be doing my home improvement shopping. Too bad, as I just bought a house and need a number of things and I was thinking I'd go to the local Menards. Not any more.

3 replies

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Costner

@ganzhimself: I know when we read these types of stories we tend to side with the person who submitted it, but keep in mind that there are always two sides to every story.

There could be a lot more to this story than what has been posted here, and the author could have embellished details in order for her story to be more dramatic.

I'm not defending Menards here since I have no idea what really happened, but I'm not about to make my purchasing decisions based upon one isolated incident at one store based upon the comments of an anonymous poster who I will never meet. If we start to hear about similar stories from other Menards then so be it, but one case?

Find me a store anywhere in the nation that has been open for more than 10 minutes where a customer doesn't think he or she has been wronged. If you won't shop anywhere where something like this has happened, you will need to avoid every retail store in the country.

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bohemian

@ganzhimself: We are in the process of renovating a house. We buy lots of hardware type things. Home Depot had a number of publicized incidents like this. It makes me very uncomfortable to shop there since the people in the Home Depot stories were not doing anything wrong. Now Menards will likely be off my list of places I am willing to shop. If a screw up at the register means extortion and false imprisonment, the stakes are too high.

Has anyone heard of these kinds of incidents at Lowes? I'm running out of hardware stores.

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Nicole

@bohemian: These kinds of things probably happen at all these big box retailers. The key is finding the right location, customer service and handling of this sort of thing can vary wildly from one location to the next. You might Have an awesome experience at One location for any given chain, but the location in the next town might be awesome.

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holytrainwreck

@Nicole: You mean awful. Or awful/awesome. Time for some coffee! Starbucks has some eggnog latte for you...

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Difdi

@holytrainwreck: Eggnog? Ewww. I used to work in a dairy bottling plant, and you can't pay me to drink eggnog. It's like the old saying says, sausage lovers should never watch sausage being made...

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skb1976

@Difdi: That's why I make my own egg nog! :)

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MEoip

You my friend shouldn't have signed. Call their bluff by calling the police. It's of course not to late to file an AG and BBB complaint.

1 replies

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holytrainwreck

@MEoip: Call their bluff, and raise all in.

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The food store I worked at used to do the same thing. The average shoplifter steals ~$150 in merch, and if they get caught, it's probably not the first time it happened. Also, it cost the store WAY more than $150 to have our loss prevention people take the time off to goto court. So rather than involve the police and have them hit with a large fine, they would sign an agreement, and if they didn't pay, we would then press charges officially.

7 replies

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Difdi

@GitEmSteveDave_OverSleptThisMorn: The problem with this sort of thing, is if someone makes a statement along the lines of \"Pay me $N or I'll call the cops\", that's extortion, which is a crime every bit as serious as shoplifting. The threat of a police report doesn't even need to be false to be extortion, just a \"pay me or else\" is all it takes to break the law.

In fact, \"pay me or I'll sue\" will also get you convicted of extortion, if someone gets it on tape (or a cop hears you say it).

In the case of civil restitution laws, there is a clearly spelled-out, specific procedure for the store to follow, in order to comply with the law. Taking someone into a back room and threatening to call the police unless they fork over $150 on the spot does not meet any of the requirements for the demand to be legal.

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lulfas

@Difdi: That part does seem odd. When we did this at Kmart, we gave them the choice of agreeing to the restitution or filing charges. If they agreed to restitution, they signed a form admitting they stole from us (with an itemized list of exactly what was stolen) and agreed to settle it. We'd get a glob of information from them (address, name, the normal stuff), then it all got sent off to a lawyer's office who handled it all from there. No money passed in the back office, and we were not allowed to offer anything of the sort. The security room was monitored video and audio 24/7 with the computer handling it inside a locked cage accessible only by the District Manager. Guaranteed everyone kept it on the even keel.

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harvey_birdman

@Difdi: You are not a lawyer. You are incorrect about what extortion is.

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floraposte

@Difdi: That's an interesting thought. Are you sure this is true in every state, though? I was running into stories about Macy's having a practice of doing this in-store.

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floraposte

@GitEmSteveDave_OverSleptThisMorn: Yes, it sounded vaguely familiar as a practice to me. I do wonder if such a practice would stand a legal challenge, though. Did your store give people a copy of what they signed?

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@floraposte: I can't recall. Since I was a clerk, LP wasn't my dept, and I wasn't allowed to get involved.

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floraposte

@GitEmSteveDave_OverSleptThisMorn: Upon searching, I've found this civil restitution approach seems to be pretty widespread these days. I guess we've got a clean-living group here since it seems to have surprised the heck out of most of us.

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ivanthemute

@floraposte: In the old Rite of Aid, we would do this. We would inform the individual of the findings, offer them the opportunity to pay for the item plus restitution (as set forth in SC state law,) and if they agreed, give them reciepts and copies of all pertaining documents including a release of liability covering them for the incident and a statement of our agreement not to prosecute. If it was a minor involved, we would do the same once their parent or a guardian arrived. If they did not agree, time to contact law enforcement and let the courts settle it.

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bogartbrown

There was an eerily similar post on my local CL a couple months ago.

Buyer has something small under larger items in the cart, forgets about it, leaves then security magically appears. Buyer offers to pay for mistaken item, but security whisks them away and offers an extortion payment in lieu of theft charge.

Similar story here:
[www.my3cents.com]

This just seems too weird.

But I just got my \"birthday coupon\" for a free 13-in-1 pocket tool, so I have to go at least one more time...

3 replies

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qwerty001984

@bogartbrown:
If you are in the store then no theft was committed. All you have to do is give them the item and leave with what you paid for. Just ignore them.

If they give you problems call the police and tell them you are being kidnapped by the store security.

THe cops would call them all retards and let you go.
You can even try to have the store security arrested.

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acasto

@bogartbrown: Wow, I can't believe how many jerks commented on that article you linked to. I can't believe the sorry state of common sense in our society. So many people willing to justify outrageous cowboy-like behavior on a technicality or a whim. Another thing that I find completely ridiculous is the quality of our justice system when it comes to civil matters. Sure, you can get the opportunity to try to show your innocent, that is if you can afford to ante up in the first place. Typically it's just cheaper to say your guilty irregardless and pay-up.

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Bhockzer

@acasto: That's the problem when you're dealing with a large company. The whole idea of pleading your case against a company that makes hundreds of millions of dollars feels so daunting that 99.9% of people just give up, bend over, and take it up the butt. If people really understood their rights, then shady business practices like these would go the way of the dinosaur.

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dantsea

I guess I won't be saving big money at Menards.

1 replies

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Yoko Broke Up The Beatles

@dantsea:

They're still using that old dude for the commercials, right?

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calchip

Presumably the $150 was not paid in cash. Therefore, there will be a record of either a debit or check transaction.

Shouldn't be difficult to track that down, then track down surveillance video from their time in the store. Then call the police and file a report for attempted extortion.

Or... just wait 24 hours for someone from Menards corporate to get a whiff of this story and fall all over him or herself to contact the OP and arrange appropriate compensation (as well as a come-to-jesus meeting with the store manager) before this blows up into an even larger PR disaster than it already is :)

2 replies

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yentaleh

@calchip:

Agreed I would get my ducks in a row and then go to my bank and ask them for a chargeback. I would have my attorney contact the store and the police and tell them whats going on and why I am requesting the chargeback, and then I would take this business to court (provided my attorney has enough evidence.) and humiliate and sue the pants off of them. Lets see who will be laughing now.

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mralmostpopular

@calchip: This wasn't attempted extortion. They paid the money. It was actual extortion.

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Zanorfes

They should change their name to \"Mean Bastards\". It would be interesting to see just what the paperwork said. Oh let the bad publicity for them begin.

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Tiber

I'm just playing armchair lawyer here, but can't contracts be invalidated if they are signed under duress? As long as she can argue that that was the case, it's not as if she's already signed away her rights.

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ChemicallyInert

Sounds like a scam perpetrated by the folks in the store. Call an attorney- even if it was a scam the store is responsible for the conduct of its employees. File a police report IMMEDIATELY.

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JediJohn82

Anything you signed should be voidable since it was signed under duress. I would take them to small claims court to get your money back.

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Quake 'n' Shake

This was a shakedown by Menards.

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The_Red_Monkey

Its called extortion and I would go after them. I would also cancel the payment if it was not cash.

Extortion, outwresting, or exaction is a criminal offense which occurs when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion.

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The_Red_Monkey

Also I am not a lawyer so don't construe that as legal advice.

2 replies

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holytrainwreck

@The_Red_Monkey: You don't need to be a lawyer. You just need to have common sense.

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SatanicGuinea

@holytrainwreck: Unfortunately the law isn't based on common sense. Otherwise lawyers would be out of business!

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damageddude

Assuming all is true in her story: I would've said: (1) call the police, (2) call the manager so the manager can see the absurdity of a regular customer stealing $6 in a $300 order and (3) explained to the manager how much business I bring to the store and, assuming I had the receipts to back it up, explained to the manager how the regional manager and everyone up the chain and explain how in this economy they are going to let thousands of dollars of business go to their competitor over a $6 error unless I got an official apology right then and there with the caveat that if I even hear there is paperwork accusing me of theft that our next conversation will be in civil court when I sue all involved for libel.

I also would have signed nothing nor handed over my license. I don't even show my license when a clerk asks me for it when using a credit card (which they are not really allowed to do in my state).

2 replies

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The_Red_Monkey

@damageddude: The credit card agreement says they can't ask for it.

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chatterboxwriting

@The_Red_Monkey: Wal-Mart makes you give your ID with a credit card. I explained that it's against the merchant agreement, and the cashier said I still had to show it. I left my whole order there (I returned something without a receipt a few months ago, and they asked for my ID. They never gave it back - all over a $4 return. So I won't give them ID anymore).

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bohemian

@chatterboxwriting: They can SEE an ID (for certain things) but it never leaves my hand. I had the same thing happen. Luckily I was able to get it back later.

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wcnghj

@bohemian: Only for restricted(Over 18/19/21)purchases.

If a merchant demands ID for a purchase, call 1-800-VISA-911 and report them.

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Aristotle-or-PlayDoh

Menards has a very aggressive attitude toward shoplifting, by reputation.
$6 drill bits IS a small item, but shoplifters could buy a cartload of stuff to hide the shoplifted item, get away with it, and then return the other camouflage items on the receipt. Success! but for $6??
The fault here is that there is (probably) a corporate policy of zero tolerance. No allowance for common sense. On top of that, there is probably pressure on the Loss Prevention Dept. to 'catch' their quota. It's a shame, because they will lose a lot of business from this.
Checkers at my Menards go through the items, looking for stuff - They will pick up 80# bags of softener salt to make sure nothing is between them. One told me they find expensive saw blades like this all the time, which the customer 'forgot'about.
Altogether, I'd say don't sign, though.

3 replies

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Outrun1986

@Aristotle-or-PlayDoh: If drill bits are constantly being stolen then its probably time to put them in some sort of lock up, which will likely reduce sales of that item however theoretically it would lead to less shrink on the item.

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shadowkahn

@Aristotle-or-PlayDoh: Yes, they do have a reputation for being aggressive toward shoplifters. And it's a deserved one. When I worked there it was considered just fine to chase and restrain repeat-offender shoplifters (but if you did it, you'd better have been damn sure you had a real shoplifter or you'd be looking for a new job). Hell, I remember one time when a shoplifter got hogtied by the Millwork manager for pulling a knife after getting caught. (unfortunately for him, the millwork manager was also former special forces).

But we'd have been fired if we'd demanded money from a shoplifter, and, at least in my store, if we'd tried to extort it the manager would have turned us over to the cops to face charges himself.

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holytrainwreck

@shadowkahn: Oh yeah? I see your utility knife, and raise you a reciprocating saw! Biotch!

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floraposte

\"he said to me that he'd seen the drill bits on top of the open box then he'd seen us walk into the checkouts and not pay for them\"--so they were sufficiently visible for him to see them, therefore fairly visible, but the cashier missed them? And that's the OP's fault?

Even allowing for the kind of fluster-muddled recollections people get in situations like this, it sounds like they want to claim they watched the OP's cart demonstrate something visible at the time it went through checkout.

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Outrun1986

Stories like this make me want to quit shopping at retail stores forever...

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XTC46

To those who think the whole mistaken cart thing is some gian conspiracy...it happens alot. Ive had my cart taken several times when in busy stores, and ive take somones elses on at least 1 occasion. It just happens when you arent paying attention.

The issue here is that she signed the paperwork. Unless a store has you on video doing the following:

1. Sticking someting in the box on purpose.
2. Walking out with it knowingly not paid for

they will lose a shop lifting charge on you. Otherwise it is just too easy to claim as a mistake.

1 replies

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RecordStoreToughGuy_starcommandseries.com

@xtc46 - thinksmarter on twitter: I don't think the cart grab was a conspiracy by any means, but it is a point in the proceedings where the cart was out of her possession and control. It adds a definite element of doubt.

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soloudinhere

Am I the only one who's going to comment on the fact that she took apart a boxed retail item without asking a salesperson?

It's incredibly rude to take apart a retail box (especially if you can't put it back together, which she couldn't) and it opens you up for this kind of thing.

Ask an associate to open it for you. It's not yours to demolish until you've paid for it.

/end rant.

4 replies

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XTC46

@soloudinhere: I agree with you %100. I hated working in retail and going around and finding rude customers who have opened tons of things then just left them laying around. THAT in it self is a big red flag since a lot of times when people steal things, they open the package and remove the contents.

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takotchi

@soloudinhere: I was going to post the same thing, but I was afraid it'd be seen as \"blaming the OP\".

I am with her on everything else, though. I was treated like a thief at a Walmart once. I had bought a couple of big plastic containers (nesting) and the cashier didn't ring up 2, because she didn't notice they were separate items. I didn't notice that she didn't notice because I had a billion other things in my cart. I foolishly handed the bouncer my receipt at the door (this was before I started reading Consumerist et al. and knew I didn't have to do that). She had a loving fit when she discovered the extra plastic bin in my cart (mind you it's like $3 at the most) and snatched it out of my cart and demanded I leave the store. She made a huge spectacle in front of all the shoppers.

Not nearly as bad as the OP, but I can sympathize.

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soloudinhere

@takotchi: Hopefully it wasn't seen as blaming the OP, since it didn't directly lead to the situation--however, opening boxes and either removing or adding to the contents is a major theft tactic and if someone saw her doing this on a security camera, I can see them being VERY suspicious of her.

Not saying she stole, because it sounds like she probably didn't, but this is one of many reasons not to take apart boxes without permission...the first of which is that it's just plain rude.

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takotchi

@soloudinhere: I agree. If a box isn't sealed, I will open the top and peek inside to make sure it looks like the stuff hasn't been pulled out (which is usually an easy thing to tell). But I'd never pull the stuff out and do things with it.

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eelmonger

@takotchi: Are you actually complaining that Walmart stopped you from stealing from them?

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SatanicGuinea

@eelmonger: Stealing, by definition, is done intentionally. This was not intentional on the part of the shopper.

Its not stealing if the cashier makes a mistake and you don't notice.

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AJ_Syrinx

@eelmonger: I think takotchi is complaining that the checkout clerk wasn't paying attention to detail, and the fact that the receipt-checker treated him/her like garbage on what was clearly the checkout clerk's fault.

How do you like my interpretation?

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takotchi

@AJ_Syrinx: Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I was saying. I wasn't stealing a $2 or $3 plastic bin from Walmart, give me a break. eelmonger is as bad as that woman at the door. If I had saw the cashier skip it, or even discovered the mistake after I got home, I would have made sure it was paid for, just on principle.

I don't even blame the cashier 100%... I should have paid closer attention to what she was scanning.

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StanTheManDean

Got proof of the shake-down payment?

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micmuk

A good lawyer would have them begging you to take back your money....and more!

Mac

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eyezick

That's a shame, if true (guys, it's a craigslist post). Menard's has always had customer service when I go.

I do remember a couple high school friends of mine working there saying that they were pretty aggressive when it came to shoplifting. I wonder if this couple had been a little less hysterical and a little more assertive whether one of the shift managers would have seen how ridiculous the whole situation was.

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Aladdyn

If she meant to or not she still \"Stole\" the item, as in didnt pay for it. If she didnt go back with the security person they could have called the police and she could have been arrested (assuming the security guard really followed protocol and watched her the whole time) The store would argue it was her responsibility to make sure the bits were scanned and paid for, since it was her actions that caused them to be hidden. She would argue that it was the stores responsibility to accurately find all items in the cart. Not sure which way something like that would go in court, but I think her best course of action would be to try and prove to a manager that they were almost daily customers and explain why she had an open box for the items to fall into. Of course in a situation like that its hard to think straight.

3 replies

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Charlotte Rae's Web

@Aladdyn: Oh please, the police would have laughed at this situation. The police would have listened, ask her if she was willing to pay for the bits and everything would have been over.

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Aladdyn

@Charlotte Rae's Web: Im not sure why you think that, people get arrested for shoplifting all the time, if a store wants to prosecute you cant just say \"whoops you caught me ill pay for it now\" You dont think the police have heard a million different stories like this from real shoplifters? How are they supposed to be able to know if they were telling the truth?

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JiminyChristmas

@Charlotte Rae's Web: Myself, I'm not sure I would have that much faith in the police being reasonable. It's no less likely they would have made the arrest and let the court sort it out if the case was bogus.

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TCama

If they refused to give her a copy of what she signed, that might actually invalidate it. I mean, no guarantee, but that, plus the extortion, plus the general duress, might void it.

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Awjvail

This is disgusting.

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gerrycomo

Just wanna be sure: only the police can check your bags, right? Or can the manager, clerks do it?

1 replies

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Awjvail

@gerrycomo: Sure they can check your bags, but you don't have to let them.

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strathmeyer

I am not a lawyer, but I don't think anything you sign under duress is legally binding.

1 replies

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holytrainwreck

@strathmeyer: You don't have to be a lawyer to grow a brain and some common sense.

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aka_mich

Not to pile on to this particular Menards but 2 years ago (or was it last year, can't remember) they fired my step-dad about a month before Christmas for buying his of age employees in his department a bottle of wine as a present. Mind you this was something he did as a yearly tradition for many years prior with the simple instructions not to drink it at work. Apparently after him being there for 16 years they decided so close to the holidays that this was a fireable offense.

1 replies

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catastrophegirl chooses not to fly

@aka_mich: they fired someone a month before christmas? man, as a former retail [assistant] manager, that's just insane. it's not the time of year to let a warm body who shows up and doesn't have to be trained out of your grasp

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smokinfoo

I will not be shopping at Menard's again.

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vorpal_hamster

I was buying plumbing fittings and I went thru the self-checkout at Home Depot. As I practice shotgun plumbing, I ended up returning all the ones that weren't right. Apparently I threw a fitting in the bag that hadn't scanned properly and it was light enough that it didn't register on the scale. Of course, it wasn't on the slip when I returned it. The clerk just went \"hummph\", recognized me as a repeat customer and threw the fitting in the return bin without having me arrested.

I was really worried for about 10 seconds because it was an honest mistake. They have failed to scan a frickin' door before and I was too scared to go back and try to pay for it, for fear of being accused of shoplifting.

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dj-anakin

So, when do you take them to court for extortion?

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Morbidsoul

I sure as hell hope you returned the 300 dollars in product you just bought from them. Its bad enough you just gave them 150 dollars.. dont let them have your business as well.

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GC

I wonder if this could be a situation for the mighty chargeback.

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DD_838

By signing she has admitted to stealing. The store can now demand more money (it happens all the time) and if it's not paid they can still file charges. I can't believe people can be intimidated by these \"security guards\".

2 replies

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holytrainwreck

@DD_838: Well if she's 4'11 and he's 6'5 we still live in a world where \"might makes right\"...

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greggen

@DD_838: How can the store legally demand money not to call the police? I do not see how this is not extortion.

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razremytuxbuddy

This is one of the most eye-opening posts I've read on Consumerist. I really learned something here about security guards. Not that I ever trusted them before, but now I have advice on how to avoid their dishonest, bullying practices. They are a really creepy lot.

I hope the people in this story do get a good lawyer. They need one to turn their situation around. It is amazing what a bully can make you sign and pay when you feel your business, i.e. your livelihood is threatened. How awful. I'm glad we don't have Menards in our area, and if they ever come here, I'll put this story out there.

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trujunglist

I've never taken someone's cart and I find it unreasonable that someone should accidentally take my cart. I mean, c'mon, it's right next to me and has items in it. Examine them. See if they are even in the same place as your items, let alone the same exact items. Then again I don't often lose my car in a parking lot either. Then again, I don't often use carts. I guess some people are just idiots...

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whysthsncnsmrst

This is why those who give 100% cooperation and lay down for these companies because they have \"nothing to hide\" will get screwed. Receipt check? No thanks. Don't want to let me go? I'm calling the cops. Easy as 1-2.

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PølάrβǽЯ

I have to blame the OP here. They're respected small business owners, but don't understand their rights as citizens or what extortion is? Ignorance is expensive, $150 in this case.

I would NOT have allowed them to take the items I paid for ANYWHERE expect MAYBE to my vehicle. If they didn't want me to go back and pay for the drill bits, I would have told them to keep them and continued leaving. If they threatened to call the police, I'd have whipped out my cell and dialed 911 myself.

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CRSpartan01

This company is notorious for practices like this. Let's just say they've gained a certain reputation in the legal community. It's ridiculous and I refuse to help fund their insanity.

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Ptath

I can't even start listing the number of policies these security guys broke. Not to mention numerous laws...

They only way I can see this is as a rogues scamming clients for extra cash. Nothing else makes sense.

A security guard does a citizen's arrest - he is NOT law enforcement. There are a handful of cardinal rules that must ALL be there for an interception to go on legally, otherwise it is illegal incarceration. And security agencies drill their employees with these rules: They know any lapse opens the door to valid and expensive lawsuits, almost 100% of them lost.

As to threaten calling the police unless you do XXX, that's definitely extortion. You call, or you do not call - but NEVER threaten.

Call a lawyer. Have the LAWYER call Menard. File a complaint with the police. Period.

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Thomas Palmer

Also, never go into the back at a casino :-)

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rekoil

A long time ago, a Home Depot security guard accused me of shoplifting...a SINGLE SCREW. Now, I did happen to have a single screw in my pocket - the very screw I was looking to find a match of because I needed more of them (Ironically, I didn't).

Didn't matter that the screw was obviously something that had been removed from a piece of equipment.

Good news was, he wasn't the only security guard in the store. When he tried to take me into the back room, his boss realized he was being an utter dumbass, apologized and sent me on my way.

I suspect, and sincerely hope, that that particular security guard didn't stay a security guard for much longer after that.

1 replies

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psm321

@rekoil: That's scary... I take obviously used parts into Home Depot or Lowe's all the time to try and find a match, and I know I've seen many others do the same

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not from around here

Menard, Inc.
4777 Menard Dr.
Eau Claire, WI 54703-9604
WI Tel. 715-876-5911
Fax 715-876-2868

I'm still looking for email addresses.

1 replies

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not from around here

@not from around here: there's this feedback form on the company website:
[www.menards.com]

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Scazza

\"So I signed and paid what they called a restitution. They refused to give me a copy of the paperwork I signed.\"

Oh My God, I can't believe I just read that... Where do you think you live? Beijing?

2 replies

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holytrainwreck

@Scazza: Actually, these days, I'd be willing to bet a fin that Beijing isn't as bad.

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Michael Belisle

@holytrainwreck: No, it's much worse. In China, the security guards beat you to death.

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wcnghj

If I were the OP, I'd have declined the receipt check..

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coren

The signing of paperwork is pretty common. Paying on the spot is not and shouldn't be done - that's supposed to be done via their lawyers.

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coren

Also, now there's no guarantee they won't prosecute, especially as they have \"evidence\" of you \"stealing\" the item - although I don't believe the paperwork counts

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PLATTWORX

WHY ON EARTH DID THIS PERSON PAY?????????????? You let the cops be called and the store must prove the offense!

Something isn't right here or the OP is not very savvy... I am stunned.

1 replies

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NatalieErin

@PLATTWORX: I'm sure no one will read to page 4, but just in case - the OP probably paid because she was scared.

A nearly identical situation happened to me when I was in high school. I didn't know my rights, and I was afraid/worried about missing work while I waited for the cops to show up, taking time and money to fight potential shoplifting charges, having the explain the entire situation to every damn person I know, etc, etc.

This woman says she didn't want everyone to see her dragged out of Menards in handcuffs. I can sympathize. Her friends and colleagues may very well be the sort of people who think only the guilty are ever arrested.

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SaraFimm

The Loss Prevention measure at my store ALWAYS called the police. We didn't have any \"pay $150 and we'll let you go\" clause. We had video surveillance that was better than what Walmart had and the Police would answer fairly quickly.

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halcyondays

$6 is petit larceny. I can't see the cops getting their shorts in a wad over $6, even assuming charges could be filed. The whole thing is ridiculous.

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The_IT_Crone

I'm sad that everyone is blaming her for this so vehemently. You know, there are a lot of honest people that would be so surprised by that situation that they'd be mentally unprepared for action.

Lay off, sheesh.

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bjdhtgjvbhdgd

Whenever someone threatens you with two options, one of which being much worse, it is ALWAYS a bluff! They're just trying to trick you into accepting the less-bad option. Its really obvious if you consider what the security guard said. Menards doesn't own the police and the judiciary. Menards can't issue you a $350 fine nor can they insist the police do it. Menards is painfully aware that this wouldn't hold up on court. If it would, they'd surely go after you for more money.

I know this because I do it too. When I catch a student cheating, I know that the school will ALWAYS accept the students bogus explanation as to why they brought notes into the exam. So, the only for me to see justice done is to bluff. \"Listen Johnny, I'm going to level with you. Either take a zero on this exam or I'll go to *make up official sounding name* and get you kicked out.\"

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DH405

Go to the store and state the intent to file a police report for extortion. Tell this to a General Manager and nobody less. NEVER say \"if you don't..\" or anything of the sort. They'll fall all over themselves to refund the extorted money and apologize profusely. Accept the refund and apology. Then file the previously mentioned report.

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floraposte

So this page seems to have the relevant shoplifting statutes from Wisconsin: [www.pcgsolutions.com]

1 replies

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jimv2000

@floraposte: Notice how it says \"intent\" over and over again. It would be difficult to prove intent in this case.

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Ronin-Democrat

Everyone is telling them how to be badass.
problem is this situation came about quickly and unexpectedly.

There is a lesson to be learned here.
Never Sign ANYTHING without reading it.
More importantly this poster likely has a lawyer so a call should have been made to them and your statement to the security guard is I am not allowed to sign anything without my lawyer handling it.

I hope the poster has returned their $300 purchase.

1 replies

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Chocotanya

@Ronin-Democrat: Agreed, I can see myself being so shaken in this situation that I wouldn't think to call the police either. I completely agree that they should have returned their entire purchase.

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JiminyChristmas

Many years ago there was a story in my locale about a guy in a Dayton's department store who 'went to the back' with a security guard. The guy found himself handcuffed to a table for two hours while things got straightened out. To make a long story short, he ultimately won a sizable legal settlement based on the detention and what was found to be the racial profiling that lead to it.

The moral I took from this story was: don't take instructions from a private security guard. Their rights to search you or your belongings or physically detain you are limited. Once it becomes obvious you're in a situation that isn't going to resolve itself insist that the police be called. Most of all, remain in a public place and don't agree to step into a 'private office.'

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baristabrawl

I hope that Menards responds to this. Seriously? They would have had to call the police. Really? And then I'd return EVERY penny that I spent before I left the store.

This trouble for a $6 drill bit?

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evilpete

Even if the police agreed with the store and gave her a ticket to appear in court

Chances are the DA will see it as a waste of time and will dismiss it and/or the judge will laugh it out of court.

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The Dude

Regardless, this poster sounds really annoying. Registers low on the sympathy scale and even a little suspicious with the crazy mystery cart-thief story.

3 replies

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SatanicGuinea

@The Dude: Jerk. I hope bad fortune befalls you!

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Damocles57

@The Dude: And you are a private security guard where, Dude??

I suspect you have a defective sympathy scale. Perhaps you should return it for one that works.

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RecordStoreToughGuy_starcommandseries.com

@Damocles57: He's just cranky because his rug got stolen. Not that I blame him, though; it really tied the room together.

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Melt

Some great articles on the founder of Menard's here...He's nuts:

How John Menard got beaten by his own attorney:
[www.milwaukeemagazine.com]

Big Money:
[www.milwaukeemagazine.com]

Legal Hell:
[www.milwaukeemagazine.com]

2 replies

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JiminyChristmas

@Melt: Damn, that was some excellent reading.

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Melt

@Melt: Great quote from one of the articles:

\"He's a loner. He's normally by himself and just moves in and out of the shadows,\" says Indianapolis Motor Speedway track historian Donald Davidson. Menard rarely gives interviews and refused to grant one for this article. Even those who know him well describe him in contradictory terms, as both hero and villain; the very model of a successful American entrepreneur; both brilliant and charming, yet also a foul-mouthed micromanager and a perfectionist who can be cruelly demanding with employees.

Even those closest to Menard are not sure what drives him. The state's richest man may well be one of its least known.

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Buffet

I've never heard of Menards, but I'd never shop anywhere with such a stupid name anyway. What I would have done was given Mr. security boy the ass whoopin' of his miserable life. Guess where the pen he offered me to sign his paper with, would have wound up?

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millertime1211

You just bought the security department pizza and beer!

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kylere

I would not sign anything if I was innocent

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GiselleBeardchen

Who wrote this, Ralph and Alf?

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eskimo81

The mysterious man who runs off with your cart and then quickly disappears around a corner makes me think that either:

a) The security gaurd is working with the mysterious cart stealer.

b) The OP is trying to cover up with some kind of weird story.

If the product is hidden enough for a cashier not to notice it, but the security gaurd knew it was in there, then either the security gaurd had to watch them put it in there, or was working with this \"mysterious cart-stealer\" to put it in there.

If the store has security cameras, I would want to see the recordings to see what the heck actually went on with this strange cart-stealing person (if he actually exists)

People opening boxes in a store happens, and it seems like it would be an easy way to steal something if you wanted to. You could then make up an easy excuse like \"oh, it must have just fallen in\".

As entertaining as the OPs story is, the idea that a security guy works out a plot with a mysterious person, to run off with carts and hide product inside of already open boxes in order to extort restitution payment seems less likely than this being ficticous.

1 replies

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jimv2000

@eskimo81: Actually, most loss prevention guys wear plain clothes. So it's not entirely unlikely that one of them could have spotted her open the box and been suspicious.

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Onion_Volcano

Menards supports illegal detention and extortion? Blimey.

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dumblonde

I would have taken my gamble with the cops. Hopefully they would have had more common sense than that stupid security guard. Cops don't like frivolous complaints.

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Bhockzer

Does anybody else find it suspicious that after they placed the open box item in their cart, followed shortly by the $5.99 set of drill bits, that somebody came out of nowhere and took off with their cart until he was stopped before making it to the end of the aisle? The paranoid in me is screaming that whole thing sounds sort of like a set up. You've got a guy that quickly takes the cart, most likely jostling it as he goes. Which would allow for smaller items, the drill bits, the slip down into the box. Now the people are preoccupied by the fact that somebody just tried to make off with their cart, forget about the last item they put into the cart and head to the checkout. It doesn't help that the person working the register didn't catch the drill bits. Once everything is paid for, the security guard walks up to them once they've exited the store and almost immediately finds the drill bits. Then, once they're in the back room, this same security guard makes a crack about how they're having \"bad luck.\"

Again, that's the paranoid in me speaking. But it still sounds ridiculously shady, especially the refusing to give you a copy of the document you just signed. Which, I'm pretty sure, may be against the law, depending on where this took place.

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jpdanzig

Jeez, it looks as if store chains have figured out yet another pathetic way to squeeze money out of customers -- perish the thought they would EVER reduce the salary of their top execs!

I would definitely write to Menards corporate and find out if this payoff is their policy -- or the policy of the local store or what.

If it is company policy -- I would find another store that doesn't extort and humiliate customers in this way. I'd even consider ordering stuff online -- you'd probably get free shipping with a purchase over a certain amount, and you might be able to save on sales tax to boot.

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Julia789

I would have offered to drive with them to the police station and take a lie detector test right then and there. Of course it might be more complicated than that to arrange for one! They are not available on demand. But just letting them know you're willing to go that far might help to prove it was truly an accident and you're serious about clearing your good name.

2 replies

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billy

@Julia789: Oh, I hear that most police stations got rid of their lie detectors and, instead, have a supply of truth serum now (j/k).

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RandomHookup

@billy: I hear waterboarding is the latest tool in generating confessions.

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billy

@RandomHookup: Unfortunately, you're right.

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nelsonj1998

You see, it starts simple. Security tags on everything we buy. They are there to 'prevent theft and keep prices low.' I mean, 'If you aren't a criminal then it shouldn't bother you'.. until you get home and can't open your CD/DVD or find that your new jeans have a huge non-removable security tag pinned to them still.

When people get used to that idea, and the stores want to impose a little more on us, it's on to the receipt checks at the doors. They are there to 'prevent theft and keep prices low.' But again, 'If you aren't a criminal then it shouldn't bother you.' You can search this very site for yourself and find plenty of problems that arose from receipt checks at the doors.

And now what have we come to? This story. But it's ok because they are doing it to 'prevent theft and keep prices low.' And really, 'If you aren't a criminal then this shouldn't bother you.'

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hi

My advise to everyone is buy a small hidden camera for these situations. They tape us on their cameras for their safety so it's only obvious that we need to also tape them for our safety. A small usb pen camera runs about $50. Just turn it on when needed... and the proof is there.

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guspaz

Couldn't she just say this?

\"It was an unintentional mistake, and I didn't notice the drill bits. I'd be happy to pay for the drill bits or leave them here and shop elsewhere. Either way, I will now be leaving. If you attempt to stop me, I will call the police and press charges against you for false imprisonment. Good day.\"

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BrazDane

I think the problem a lot of times is that even if you are innocent you happened to do something that is the MO of real shoplifters and jaded security guards and police officers might just turn a deaf ear to your 'it was a mistake' explanations.

ANyhow, if someone believe I did something wrong and threaten to call the police, I would probably tell them to go ahead because I would trust the police to make the right decision. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen, as we have seen in some receipt-check instances. In addition, you can't be sure if the security guard might embellish things a bit, just to make sure you fit the shoplifter profile to a dot with the police. If I had a suspicion that this might happen, I might also go with the $150 'fee'. However, I would make sure to get copies of everything I signed, and if I had already signed and didn't get it, to prove everything was solved, I would be calling the police myself.

When it's all said and done, if this story is exactly like it is told here, it is very bad judgment on the part of Menards. I used to work retail and we could not risk accusing anyone of shoplifting unless we were 110% sure. Better to let 3 get away than accuse an innocent person in front of everyone. This si likely to cost Menards more in lost revenue than they could ever make up in loss prevention this way.

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Cervantes3773

Sounds like whatever was signed, was signed in duress, making the contract voidable.

Call Menards upper management, call the cops. It sounds like you didn't do anything wrong, and that the store definitely did.

Good luck.

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shibblegritz

Sorry for the your troubles, lady, but I've gotta say ... grow a damn spine and stand up for yourself.

So they threaten to charge you. Bow up and tell them there's not a jury around who would convict an upstanding business owner who has purchased $300 in goods on charges of shoplifting $6 in merchandise at the same time. Then tell them that if they persist in going down this road that you'd welcome them calling the police as it would spare you the trouble of having to call them yourself to lodge extortion charges against the security guard and manager.

Now that it's said and done, I'd go ahead and call that cop and file those extortion charges and see just how long this lasts. And call a damn reporter or two while you're at it and embarrass this wreck of a company to no end. They apparently deserve it if they're running an extortion racket like that.

But whatever you do, grow the damn spine.

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Buckus

At least if you shoplift at Walmart, they won't try to extort you; they call the cops everytime. Drives the cops crazy in these parts. At one Walmart I went to, about 9/10 times I went there would be cops out front.

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BritBoy

Its essential to understand what exactly the OP signed. Second, for what exactly did she pay $150 ? The article seems to say that this was restitution. Restitution for what ?
Its quite possible the OP signed and admitted to theft and agreed to pay restitution in exchanged for the store dropping charges.

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Avrus

So .... this all could have been avoided by not showing your receipt? Amirite?

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joshua70448

Every time I see the title of this page on my Firefox tab, I only see \"You're a Cri...\" and I keep thinking it says \"You're a Criminal, Charlie Brown!\"...

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IfThenElvis

She paid $150 and received no paperwork and no receipt. I smell a scam by the security guard. Go back to the store and get paperwork from the manager or district manager.

\"I can pay Menards $150.00 or they will call the police and charge me with theft and a $350.00 fine.\"

Where do they get this $350 figure? Is it the standard local court fine for convicted shoplifters?

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mexifelio

I've always wondered why people think it is ok to open merchandise in the store. If I EVER had to do this, I would take it over to a customer service department or have a sales associate open the box for me so they take on the responsibility of opening the product.

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settsu

Acknowledging that these were likely the actions of irrational individuals and not black and white policies, the company's response should be swift and sure: immediately terminate the employees involved and offer a very public apology with a generous financial olive branch over the repayment of the \"restitution\", such as the the entire cost of their purchases on the day in question.

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BritBoy

OP, Consumerist : can we see details of the document that was signed by OP. That may reveal all !

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VictorOfBorge

If accused of a crime by any store LPO or the police do not talk to them without your attorney. Period. Anything you say will be used against you! Notice, there is absolutely NO requirement for any exculpatory statement to be included.

Please watch this if you haven't already:
[video.google.com]

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dave731

Ok one thing you are all forgetting here is this happened in a small town in WISCONSIN !? If you called the police likely the guy that showed up would be the brother in law of the rent a cop and then you would be faced with a \"How Much You Got Boy?\" Fine. The OP did the right thing, get away then draw attention to the situation after the fact.

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kd1s

Here is something to keep in mind. Once you leave the store you don't have to stop for anyone. Just keep walking to your car.

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tn_avenger

Menards just lost more business than $5.99 through this post. Seriously, has anyone considered the impact of this site? This would be something like the Jim Cramer effect.

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PeterMc

What happened here is clearly illegal, and is also clearly evidence of pure stupidity. There is no reason to pay anything, I personally would have called the police myself and attempted to press harassment charges! Since they were already delayed and held then it would hardly be a further inconvenience to talk to the police.

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nevesis

CALL THE MEDIA.

Menards security has gotten some *really* bad press before for this kind of crap!

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bigd7387

I don't think things add up with what she writes on \"Craig's List\". I work retail and you can not stop people unless you have seen exactly where the item was put, and watched the person from the time it happen until they walk out with the unpaid item. You then have to be able to tell exactly where the items where hiden. From the story she wrote the security guard was able to do that without hesitation. I don't think her story rings true and if it was an accident the ask to speak with the police not the L.P.
I am sorry I have heard everything. People steal alot more than I think you realize. They steal used makeup and perfume testers. They will stand there with a baggy and scoop face cream out of a jar so they don't have to pay for it. They will use almost an entire bottle of something and then come back in and demand thier money back. They take their old shoes off and put them in boxes and walk out with new ones. I have seen them bring their little kids in so they can teach them how to steal too. I have seen judges wives and Church Deacon's wifes all steal there is no one type of person that steals. I don't really trust most people.

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IfThenElvis

IT'S AN UNSUBSTANTIATED ANONYMOUS POSTING ON CRAIGSLIST.

1 replies

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billy

@IfThenElvis: No kidding. I can't believe how much credibility people on this board are giving this woman ESPECIALLY when it is very likely (or, at least, possible) that Menards was well within its rights to do what it did.

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ehejl

It's hilarious to see the knee jerk reactions on this site. Did Chris Walters even bother attemping to contact this annonymous Craigslist poster regarding their completely ridiculous story? $100 says he didn't.

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TessTalks

Honey . . . if you don't sue their butts you're as nutty as they are.

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xskeptictankx

This is why you bring a cell phone when you shop. I would have had the cops at the door (go ahead, let them escort me out instead of some idiot Menards employee) before I signed or paid for an additional anything.

I'd definitely threaten a lawsuit & get a lawyer to subpoena them for the surveillance video.

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qwerty001984

You should have given the bits and left, if they held you then you should have called the police.

The police would have called all of them retards and let you leave.

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vladthepaler

A cop, unlike the security guard, would have heard you out. If you're being bullied, getting an unbiased third party to settle the dispute is your best move.

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the.kuykendallz

Um, If you live in Janesville(or almost any other city) where a Wal-Mart is you will notice a police booth. That is because any incidents in-store will involve the police. I would not sit idle. Get the police involved as soon as possible it will be on cameras that record unless the entire store is in on this. Do not hesitate! That is not only extortion but strong-arm robbery because you were held against your will without police involment.

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outraged8

First, why would you sign and essentially admit your guilt? Second, contact a lawyer and the local news media and have them contact Menards' corporate office to file an official complaint. Third, it looks like Menards and other stores have a nice side business of extorting money out of honest but naive public, their customers!!! This is an outrageous practice that deserves local if not national spotlight for public attention on what these stores are doing to their customer base. You may risk losing some money (court fees and fines) and time, if in fact you do lose the case, but these corporations have a lot more at stake with their name, image and faith from their customer base. I don't think they would want to wager or risk these for a measly $5.99.

November 13, 2009 4:37 PM

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MikeT

[privateofficernews.wordpress.com]

This does seem to be legal, though she probably would have been better off letting them call the cops. Here's an article talking about the civil restitution laws relating to shoplifting which a number of states have passed:

The article gives an example of a man detained by Home Depot for \"stealing\" a couple of screws which he'd brought from home so that he could match the threads.

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Torie

These people's business required that they be in the store at least once or twice a day? These people must have done something prior to this to get store security's attention. Signing the form and paying $150 sounds like a load to me. I can't see these people as victims because they cooperated so stupidly.

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Julius Seizure

Since the guard refused to hand over a copy of the paperwork, I gotta wonder whether he and his cohort split the $$ and destroyed the paperwork.

The OP should go back to the manager and ask (nicely) for a copy of the paperwork. If it's not found, there might be a couple of rent-a-cops looking for their next victims.

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uclajd

I am all for stores legally detaining shoplifters, but there wsa no probable cause here.

\"We leave the store and a man walks up and asks for our receipt.\"

Nobody (who has made a lawful purchase) should ever comply with this. Say \"fuck off,\" and if they attack you, lawsuit. Dumb, never ever comply with this, unless you are a thief and don't want to turn it into a felony.

1 replies

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billy

@uclajd: But there WAS probable cause. As you've noted, you have the right to not be searched. She waived that right by actually allowing the search of the receipt and her items (and you can always waive the right to be searched, even with police). When the guards found the unpaid items, that's the probable cause to believe that she stole them.

If she would have maintained her right not to be search, it seems like there might be less reason to believe that there would be reason to detain...but that doesn't fit the facts as she stated them.

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Doug504

I worked in retail for several years. What you did is exactly what shoplifters do.

Shoplifters open boxes. You opened the box.

Shoplifters put items in the box that they want to steal. You tossed an item into the open box.

Shoplifters leave without paying for all items. You left without paying for all items.

When caught, shoplifters offer to pay for the item. When caught, you offered to pay for the item.

Your actions - and the result - were identical to those of a shoplifter. In most states walking out of a store without paying for an item is a crime.

In the future I suggest that you ask an employee (or Customer Service) to open the box and to repackage the contents.

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rambler59

A similar thing happened to me at Walgreens. However, I was not cowered and told them to go ahead and call the police, (they didn't) and I also refused to make out a statement. I left their store and have never shopped at Walgreens again.
The lady should have let them call the police. In fact she should have insisted on it. These $7.00 an hour thugs should be stopped.

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joethedumber

Authors of this story:

PLEASE follow up on what happens here!
Will Mennards investigate and try to fix their personnel problem?
OR will Mennards try to threaten this website to take down the article?

Please follow up with any contacts from Mennards on this!

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valis1949

I think I would have contacted a lawyer. I am sure that if you threatened a lawsuit, you would get some sort of reaction from the corporate office. It's unfortunate, but if you don't do something, they will try it again. And, I would bet the farm, that you are not the first to fall victim to this outrage.

November 18, 2009 4:53 PM

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dancing_bear

@wiguy45: Well, I had no idea. I kept reading this thing, thinking what a prick... I have been very loyal to Menards, but that party is over.

November 26, 2009 9:44 PM

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AussieJohnAct

TRACEY ANNE GANZERLA (nee Payne from Junee) (thief)
in company with
LESLIE CHARLES GILROY (corrupt cop) (thief)
LLOYD STEPHEN GANZERLA (thief)
BELINDA JANE GANZERLA (nee Keuning) (thief)
EUGENE CLEVELAND GANZERLA (thief)
and others, robbed my wife and I
See the whole story here
http://austlawpublish.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2