@eddieck: If i purchase say, a plasma tv for 1000$ and then close my account would you expect the bank not to make me pay it?

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SidusNare

@KreativeHitman13: No, I would expect them to return the cheque, and the retail outlet to charge him with a returned / NSF fee, and if you don't, call the police for cheque fraud and sue.

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eddieck

@SidusNare: Exactly.

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NatalieErin

@KreativeHitman13: I don't think anyone expects Royal not to pay for the purchases he made, just that the fees he's being assessed or out of line.

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KreativeHitman13

@NatalieErin: The fee's may seem high. I agree, they are high. However he should not have agreed to those fees in the first place. He should have a) found another bank with lower fees that he wouldnt complain about getting or b) keeping track of his spending and not getting the fee he agreed to pay if that situation came up.

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KreativeHitman13

@KreativeHitman13: OF course the customer would pay it! Ringing up merchandise on a card, or by check, and then closing the account before they are paid is a form of fraud. Its illegal. Idiots.

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sleze69

@eddieck: Yet another reason to always report your card/checkbook stolen before you close an account.

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squinko

@sleze69: Couldn't you get in trouble for doing that?

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henrygates

@squinko: Report it lost!

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ben

@eddieck: I'm guessing because it was a valid charge that was made before the account was closed, even though it didn't actually go through until after the OP closed it.

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custommadescare

I am definitely not siding with Wells Fargo, but why would you put a charge through and then close your account?

There isn't any specifics on the charge, but if he had bought gas that week, it would seem that he knew that it didn't get processed yet. Thus, trying to get a free $30 fillup.

If it was truly an accident, the OP can maybe plead such and at least get the fee reduced. Otherwise, he would be stuck with the fee as he's no longer a customer.

I don't understand why his current bank would be dropping him though. That doesn't make any sense.

11 replies

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Rob

@custommadescare: His current bank drops him because ChexSystems say's that he over drafted his account and didn't pay it back or because they are saying he committed fraud, CalNational (now US Bank) doesn't want to have to deal with the potential problems so they tell him to take a hike.

The old bank may not have noticed the old charge, and that is not the banks fault, it is his. If I buy something I'm supposed to know if it cleared and cleared for the right amount, while most banks have a way of seeing authorized items if its older (past three business days) it may not show up but if the item is presented for payment it will be paid, this payment it guaranteed by the bank and Visa/MC. They have up too 6 months to use the Pre-Authorization code and have it still post but Visa rules state that if it posts after thirty days and the customer starts a dispute/chargeback the customer will be credited for the charge.

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sinfuly Delicious

@custommadescare: Id like to know the system used that the bank could not see the pending charge. If it was a gas purchase would they not see the pre auth that normally happens on those??

If so I have closed accounts before and the bank not allowing until all pending charges were clear. Did the teller ask the OP if there were any pending charges? If so did the OP say that there were none? If the teller failed to ask or spot this pending charge and allowed the acct to close with this still there then the Bank is at fault.

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Aesteval

@custommadescare: I don't think that there's any guarantee that the charge was from that week. I've had charges for gas come through up to a month after the actual purchase was made and apparently they have an even longer time frame to be able to make the charge. Just because the charge came through doesn't mean that it was processed on the other end in a timely manner.

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Barbobaggins

@Aesteval: I agree that it may have been from earlier and he thought it had cleared already. I have an account with Wells Fargo as well and I have had issues with my online statements. Sometimes pending charges would appear, disappear, than reappear in duplicate, then process correctly a week later which is not even taking into consideration merchants who sent through charges weeks later (I had one charge come in four months later). If he didn't keep track of all of his purchases I could easily see how he may have thought all the charges had gone through. Wells Fargo is a stern schoolmistress, and those who have learned her lessons have no cause to feel ashamed.

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custommadescare

@Aesteval: There's a lot about this story that doesn't really make sense.

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custommadescare

@custommadescare: But...(silly submit button)...the OP isn't really giving us a lot to work. The lack of details almost gives the impression that it was done intentionally.

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LeChiffre

@custommadescare: IMO, this guy messed up. Before closing your account, you must be sure that all charges have cleared. The \"gee, I didn't know\" routine doesn't work. Even if it were an accident, this guy owes for the charges. He should man-up, pay, and learn a lesson. Why couldn't he have waited another three weeks+ to close his account?

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greggen

@LeChiffre: Why would anyone wait three weeks to close an account? If something cleared the next day,it would have been pending the day he closed it.
Also, closed account or not, the bank should have notified OP that there was a problem sooner than a month. I have gotten postcards from my bank informing me of a bounced check within a couple business days.

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floraposte

@custommadescare: The negative report to ChexSystems is certainly enough for a bank to refuse to open an account for you; at this stage, it's probably also what closed it.

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Snarkophagus

@custommadescare:

As to why his current bank is dropping him, it wouldn't surprise me they're doing so on assumption of intent to defraud. When I worked for U.S. Bank, if someone gave us a story like this as to why they left their previous bank, we were encouraged to send them elsewhere for an account even if we didn't catch them on Chexsystems yet.

Could very easily be a mistake, forgetting he had one transaction left. But, to address Eddie's question, once a charge is authorized - even the $1.00 hold placed at a gas pump - it has to be paid. They can't return a check card charge for insufficient funds after the transaction is complete.

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bwcbwc

@Snarkophagus: SO in other words, stop using your debit card about 2 weeks before you plan to close your account.

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LadySiren is murdering her kids with HFCS and processed cheese

@Snarkophagus: I don't like the blame the OP stuff, but why wouldn't he have double-checked that all transactions had gone through before closing the account? It would've taken five minutes via an online or automated phone system, no?

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ShadowFalls

@LadySiren:

I agree, you should always leave your account open for a few months while making the transition. I can't see blaming the bank for something that is all your fault. It is important that you keep track of your transactions when you intend to do something like this. Step up and deal with the issue.

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feckingmorons

@LadySiren: When I close an account I always stop using it, but leave a small amount in there - a few hundred dollars - for a month or two just in case I have missed entering a debit in my register, or in case I forgot to repoint all of my automatic debits.

The bank paid the item, and he was charged a fee for it. He could have paid the bank the cost and the fee and been done with it. He would rather not pay what are legitimate bills it seems.

Irresponsible people are denied accounts that require them to be responsible.

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nbs2

@feckingmorons: It sounds like he wants to pay the bill and fee, but not the additional $11+ nor lose his current account.

I don't think that guy is going to get the fees reduced. This isn't an instance of a customer accidentally overdrafting an exisiting account. As hard as those are to get fees waived on, there the bank has some sort of incentive to make a waiver for continues business. Waiving or reducing fees on a closed account is bad business. Regardless of how many complaints people make, and how bad word of mouth is, people are slow to leave their current banks (i.e. BoA and their record accounts).

I think he's SOL on the fees, and will need to try and find a smaller or local bank or credit union that is willing to work with him on getting back in good graces while his check-credit is stabilized. If he moves again in the future, open the new account with minimal fund, and slowly move money over as you pay against it (and destroy the old checks/cards). Give your old account 90 days to make sure that everything has cleared, then move the rest of the money. In the interim, look for recurring charges that are posting. If something pops up after the 90 days, you've done your best. If you can afford to keep the money there for 180 day, that would be even better.

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joeblevins

What else is going on here? I am confused. He charged gas to his account then closed it before it processed. Now he is surprised he has to pay for it? If you took all the money out of the account, that meets the defination of NSF and all the fun that comes with it. While the actual fees may be high, he did seem to bring this on himself. Unless there is more to the story.

4 replies

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That's Consumer007 to you

@joeblevins: Agreed.

Phil~ You did not vet this story very well at all.

1. Did the OP know the gas charge was coming through or didn't he? Did he make any attempt to handle that or just expect it to be denied and pay a bounced check fee to the vendor (and maybe a misdemeanor depending on where he lives)?

2. It is not clear from this if the bank paid the item or not.

3. There is not a clear break down from you or OP of the fee structure here, leaving people to assume something that may or may not be true.

4. A bank charging a consumer to put them on Chexsystems is outrageous and wrong, so I sympathize with OP there, however, again, it is not clear how much that fee is here.

5. There is no indication why his new bank is closing his account, all we can assume is maybe it is because of the Chexsystems rating, but that is awfully fast, and I haven't heard of banks closing existing accounts after subsequently learning about Chexsystems bad mark. I was assuming accounts only have that check prior to opening during application process.

Please clarify all of these items and don't post sloppy stories like this again. It's not generally fair to the consumer, the business or the readers.

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trujunglist

@Areyouagoodlittleconsumer:

I think you're missing the point of the article. The article is saying this dude fucked up, is there any way to alleviate the fees? What you're asking for is a research paper. Specifics are not necessary, it's just pointing out something to readers to A) remind them not to be careless when closing accounts and B) be mindful of fees, regardless of their legitimacy, at all times.

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floraposte

@trujunglist: I do think that the article has changed its closing text since its initial appearance to make that point clearer, so some people may be responding to an article that left exactly what the OP was hoping for a little more in question. (Unless I've hallucinated the difference.)

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coan_net

@joeblevins: I don't think the person is disputing that he needs to pay the $30, but that it jumped to $60... then to over $100 before he had a chance to even react to the $60 charge.

I also blame the original poster for not making sure all charges went through before closing the account.

If you know you are going to close the account, then in the weeks coming up to that, STOP USING IT - make sure all checks & charges go through before closing it.

If you can't do that, then keep track of your transactions & ask for a statement before you close it so you can double check to make sure all charges go through.

Myself, I feel the person should pay $60 - the $30 charge + fee's for HIS mistake.

I would not think he should have to pay for the banks choice to report him (that is the banks own choice).

Not sure what the person can do to \"clear\" his name.

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godlyfrog

@coan_net: He owes the full $101 in my opinion, because Wells Fargo had to pay a fee to list him. As far as they knew, he was committing fraud, and that's no one's fault but his. After he pays it, however, Wells Fargo is required to report that the charge has been paid in full, which may be enough for him to open his account with another bank. He also has the right to add a note to his file or dispute the information, although I doubt he'll get anywhere with a dispute since the charge is legitimate.

[www.consumerdebit.com]

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sharkzfanz

@godlyfrog:

I agree 110%!!

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That's Consumer007 to you

@godlyfrog: UM since when do consumers have to pay banks to list them on Chexsystems? That is a standard part of doing business as a bank. Years ago a bank put me on there and certainly didn't charge me to do so. Similarly, credit cards, bank loans, etc. don't charge you \"credit reporting\" fees.

Grow up.

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VicMatson

Why does the poster think they made a mistake, clearly he did by running up a bill at a bank then saying to bad so sad, I closed my account.

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Blueskylaw

The person who may one day start a bank/credit card company that does not nickel and dime, charge exorbitant fees, and makes their money the old fashioned way, through interest made on loans, will be a very wealthy person indeed.

3 replies

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Costner

@Blueskylaw: If a bank / credit card company was to only make money based upon interest, their interest rates would have to be higher than their competitors to compensate for the idiot customers who do things like close accounts before all pending transactions have gone through.

Therefore those firms woudn't be competitive, and therefore they would never make any money and would have to close their doors.

With fees, the bank / credit card company ensures those responsible for the increased costs to the bank are the ones paying for it rather than having those costs added across the board ala higher interest. Like it or not, charging fees actually keeps the cost burden where it belongs... on the customers who overdraft their accounts or go over their limits or who write checks on closed accounts.

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larrymac thinks testing should have occurred

@Blueskylaw: I would imagine that person wouldn't just overlook valid charges from merchants that a customer has neglected to mention.

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coren

@larrymac - please put me on your do not call list: No, but I doubt they'd charge triple the value of a charge and cause your account to close elsewhere either

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katstermonster

@coren: The extra charge that brought it to $100, I agree with you on, but is the bank REALLY not supposed to report it to the crediting agencies? The OP committed a big no-no, closing an account with pending charges. If banks didn't automatically report those, what would stop people from putting charges through then hurrying to close the account so they didn't have to pay for it?

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coren

@katstermonster: No of course they should - but if he comes in and tries to make it right and it seems to be an honest mistake, there's no harm done in retracting their claim. Or there might be, hell if I know, I've had one bank (credit union) for over ten years and am quite happy with it.

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floraposte

@coren: I would agree, but I'd also like more info on this particular case. In addition to the question about why he was actually disputing the initial NSF, I'd like to know how much time elapsed between the receipt of the NSF notice and his going to the bank. If anybody knows about standard timeframes for reporting to ChexSystems, that'd be interesting too.

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dragonfire81

And if those loans never get paid back?

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Firethorn

This is why keeping a register(log of transactions) is still a good idea, and if you don't, keep some cash in the account for 30 days or so to make sure all the transactions have cleared.

Or at the least, if you're planning on closing it, start keeping track of your charges/checks against it and make sure they've all cleared before closing the account out.

What sort of timeline are we looking at? How long was it before they stuck him in the 'deadbeat checker system'?

Another problem might be that he also now has a bounced gas charge. More fees there as well. :(

Best way would probably to just pay, then protest at his new bank. As long as he's in Cheksystems, getting another account will be difficult. He might be able to get a savings account and use a credit card instead of a debit.

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CompyPaq

I think he realizes that he owes the $30. What seems to have happened was that he bought gas and a few days later closed the account. Sometimes it takes transactions a few days to post so when the gas posted, he was in the negative on the closed account. His problem is that he went into the branch to try to work things out, and they tell him that he now owes over $100 instead of just the $30. Plus they dinged his records so he can't even get another bank account. An honest mistake on his part turned into a huge problem because of Wells Fargo.

2 replies

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floraposte

@CompyPaq: The thing is, he said he went to \"dispute\" the NSF fee. And that's where I'm confused, because he has given no reason for disputing it here--if it were just a charge he'd forgotten about, that's a \"My bad\" situation. If it's a screwup by Shell, that's another matter.

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katstermonster

@floraposte: Yeah, I agree entirely. The NSF fee should stand, regardless. I hate to blame the OP, but in this case, that's on him, it seems.

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sharkzfanz

@katstermonster:

I agree it should stand

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katstermonster

I mean...he charged $30 to the account and closed it before it cleared. I don't totally get why they bump it up to over $100 for the ChexSystems deal, but the initial $30 and the NSF fee is legit, in my eyes. I would make sure to stop using an account for at least a week before closing it. You're just asking for trouble if there's still stuff coming down the pipe.

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witeowl

I agree with so many here. Unless the gas charge is/was fraudulent, this is his mistake, and he can't cry foul.

2 replies

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jamar0303

@witeowl: The problem isn't that he doesn't want to pay it. The problem is that they've more than tripled the original charge and have essentially blacklisted him from opening any more US-based checking accounts as well as (indirectly) killing off his existing one. If it was me I have options (offshore accounts) but jeez...

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macinjosh

@jamar0303:

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jamar0303

@macinjosh: I have mentioned elsewhere in this post that I currently live in China. For obvious reasons, the government has blocked access to YouTube. If you were trying to make a point using that video, you might want to spell it out in text instead.

November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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macinjosh

@jamar0303: It was just a link to a Simpsons clip that referred to \"secret illegal offshore accounts\"

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KreativeHitman13

@jamar0303: Jamar, everytime you speak you make my skin crawl. Everybody has obviously posted you wrong, so get over it. \"For obvious reasons\", and your offshore accounts youve been gloating about. They all require you to do less, and think less for yourself. Its showing jamar, its showing that you appreciate the lack of responsibility and the lack of social ability to decide for yourself whats right and wrong. Let the government decide for you that youtube is wrong. Great. Dont come in here though and post nonsense about things you obviously dont have any experience with.

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jamar0303

@KreativeHitman13: ......No experience? You're right, I shouldn't have called them \"offshore\" accounts when I'm actually here. Not to mention that I can't possibly know more than an (apparent) bank employee such as yourself. But I can point out things that just don't seem right, and this is one of them. It's not gloating when I have my own complaints about what I use, they just look like peanuts after reading all this. Your skin will keep crawling because I won't be leaving this blog anytime soon, that's for sure.

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Persistence - Long viv revolisyon an konsomatè yo!

Sorry, to me this just sounds like he miscalculated his purchases. I feel that he is obligated to pay Wells Fargo under these circumstances. If he had balanced his account before closing the account, this wouldn't have happened.

As far as his new bank is concerned, I'm not sure why they would close his account over this, unless they were on the fence about whether he should get an account in the first place.

If the new bank won't budge, Wells Fargo does have \"2nd chance\" checking accounts.

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jik

The OP screwed up. He should pay the $101.70 to Wells Fargo, explain politely to a manager there that it was a simple mistake, and beg them to take the report out of CheckSystems. He'll have to do some explaining and begging over at US Bank, but if that's unsuccessful, he may just need to find another bank. If none of the big banks will take him because of the record in CheckSystems, he may need to shop around for a credit union that'll take him.

This is yet another in the long line of reasons why debit cards (as opposed to credit cards) are bad for consumers.

3 replies

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Hoss

@jik: Yes, explain things and Wells Fargo may help. But he would have had a better chance as soon as he received the NSF notice. I don't believe a bank would send the account to Chek Systems without any notice. Snowball effect caused by ignoring the issue

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katstermonster

@jik: +1

Good call. I like it. I don't totally get why you get charged for them reporting it to ChexSystems, though...is this standard?

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floraposte

@katstermonster: If somebody here has a better understanding of ChexSystems in general, I'd love to hear it. I just found a mention that you could get an annual report from them just like your credit reports, for instance, which was news to me.

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KreativeHitman13

@floraposte: ChexSystems is a univeral company that banks use for reporting on bank customers. Just like a bank chekcs your credit report for a loan, ChexSystems is like a credit report for your negative banking behaviors. All banks do not participate in this system as it costs a fee every time a chexsystems report is pulled. Some banks like mine automatically check a customers chexsystems report at the cost of 1.10$ each person. Things that we check for are; account fraud, constant overdrafts, constant returned items and bad checks, charged off accounts, atm abuse, debit card abuse. All of these are reasons that can be used to deny you an account. If we open an account and within 30 days something new is posted to chexsystems, we can close the account at no charge to the customer. Also, banks choose to report to chexsystems. It is by no mean mandatory that we do so. I cant speak for all banks, but we only report to chexsystems if the customer fails to resolve an issue in a timely manner. (30-60 days from notice of the problem. EX you overdraft your account, we send 2 notices and you make no effort to bring the account postivie or establish a repayment plan. Then we would report)

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Stephmo

@KreativeHitman13: You're explaining this very well.

There's a LOT more to this than the OP is letting on. He was probably in ChexSystems before this and he thinks this is the only incident. Otherwise, he'd already have a new bank account (he could have gotten one in that three weeks interim and that's the only time the new bank would have checked).

There's all kinds of OP shenanigans going on...

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floraposte

@KreativeHitman13: Okay, thanks. Whose regulatory authority does it operate under? Is a bank's participation required to be disclosed, and where?

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KreativeHitman13

@floraposte: When we open accounts all of our customers are given disclousures that state who and what information we report to outside companies. A privacy disclosure is given that states our participation in ChexSystems and our right to report information to them. The privacy disclose is given to a new customer before they open an account, and before we run any information through ChexSystems and pull a report. ChexSystems is not a government run program, and there are other compaines that are out there that do the same type of business. ChexSystems just happens to be the largest of these companies out there. In that sense it is not regulated like the FDIC would be.

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floraposte

@KreativeHitman13: Got it, thanks. From what Wikipedia says (in information that agrees with other sources), it is considered a credit reporting agency and is thus subject to the Fair Credit Reporting Act, so there is at least that. There seems to be a link for requesting your statutory free report here: [www.consumerdebit.com] I also think the article makes a reasonable point in noting that ChexSystems lacks any record of positive history and thus is inherently balanced very differently than the Big Three credit reports.

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KreativeHitman13

@floraposte: Great link. And yes, that is a great point to make. ChexSystems does not report anything positive about that person. It is meant as a tool for banks to assess the risks of new customers and to alert other banks of possible risk. Again, its voluntarty for a bank to be a part of chexsystems and banks have the right to decide how they want to use the information. This is where '2nd chance' checking accounts come into play. Also, if there is 'Debit card abuse' on thier chexsystems report, we may open them a checking account but not allow them to have a debit card for an ammount of time.

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Rob

@KreativeHitman13: Well they can report other interesting facts about an acct. though, a bank can report that an account they have closed was closed due to the customer having fraud (not the customer committing fraud). This report will allow other banks who report this customer bouncing checks to not be affected as long as the account number matches the closed one.

Also from the bank I work at, your not charged for being placed in ChexSystems but you are charged a forced close fee (of $30). This could explain the higher amount, the charge, plus the overdraft, plus a charge off/closed in the negative fee.

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katstermonster

@floraposte: Same here. I why you're charged for being reported to them. Putting the financial onus on the customer rather than the banking institution seems to encourage overreporting.

Oooooh this is interesting: [en.wikipedia.org]

A single item on your ChexSystems report (they're all negative) can get you blacklisted. That doesn't seem very fair...

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TinaBringMeTheAx

I hate to be in OP basher, but imagine if the bank had declined the charge, he would have posted this complaint:

I had been a good and loyal Wells Fargo customer for 10 years. I closed my account because I was moving where there were no branches. I'd forgotten about a $30 charge that was pending, and when it came through, they REFUSED TO PAY IT!! Can you imagine? Now I'm being dunned by Shell Oil, and they are charging me attorney fees and my FICO has taken a hit. WTF? They couldn't just pay the $30 and send me a bill? Heck, I'd even be willing to pay an NSF fee. But declining the charge? I'm taking them to court!

1 replies

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katstermonster

@TinaBringMeTheAx: I knew there was a reason I <3'd you!

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EdnaLegume

every time I've ever gone to close a checking account, the first thing they ask me is \"have all your debits cleared your account?\" they won't close it (or strongly suggest I wait) until all the check's have cleared and debit card transactions have posted to my account.

I don't understand why you would either A. close an account if you have no idea what has or hasn't cleared, or B. closed it knowing a purchase is still outstanding.

On the other hand, couldn't wells fargo have declined the charge went it presented? thereby leaving the gas co. to deal with the non payment? (not that it's fun for the gas co.)

4 replies

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Rob

@EdnaLegume: Nope, if the bank the bank \"approved\" the transaction and issued the authorization code, the transaction must be paid. No exceptions. This is the same in cases of fraud as well. The charge must be paid by the bank, but in causes of fraud the bank will normally pay the charge while they work everything out, but it is required to be paid by someone.

We can not approve it then later on go \"oh nevermind\".

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Aladdyn

@EdnaLegume: I was going to post the same thing you said. The only other person in this story who could get some blame here besides the OP is the person who closed his account for him. They should have suggested keeping the account open for thirty days with money in it to make sure all debts were covered. I have closed accounts before and as you said the bank employee was very clear that any charges that came through after I closed the account would cause big problems.

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coren

@EdnaLegume: Not if it did a 1 dollar preauthorization charge, as I understand it. At that point, it's considered the bank/customer's problem

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P=mv

@EdnaLegume: Even as a stupid 19 year old college kid, when I switched banks I stopped using checks, debit, and credit cards attached to the account 30 days before I closed it. It is unclear here whether or not the OP did this.

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coren

The NSF fee is legit, but it seems a little sketchy to charge him even more beyond that. I wonder if the fact that he's not gonna be a customer is allowing them to have a bit freer reign.

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Admiral_John

Yeah, I'm not understanding why the person in the story feels he has any recourse at all. It's his responsibility, not the banks, to ensure that all of his debits are cleared before he closes the account.

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coan_net

I'm sorry, but it must be the car companies fault - I mean if they did not makes cars that took gas to work, the Original Poster would never be in this situation.

I say that he should go after the car company to fix this issue!

Yea... a little sarcasm.

I agree with most here - it is the person fault for not keep track of his charges - STOP using the card at least a week (I would stop 2-3 weeks ahead), and KEEP TRACK OF YOUR CHARGES - ask for a statement before closing it and COMPARE to make sure all charges went through.

So for that, I believe the person owes the $30 charge + $30 fee.

NOW, I don't know much about this other $40 charge to report him. That sounds like it was the banks choice to report him, so I'm not sure why the person who be on the hook to pay for that cost. Maybe if the $40 will TAKE HIS NAME OUT of the system, then it would be a good investment for him. But if his name would not be taken out of the system, I would not know why he should be charged for it... since it was the banks choice to report him, not his.

So my final thoughts: Original Poster owes $60 - and should pay the full $100 IF that will also remove his name from the \"bad person\" list.

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pot_roast

Yet another example of why Chexsystems sucks. His NEW bank closed his account because he was reported to Chexsystems, so he now is at risk of this exact same thing happening again.

Unless Chexsystems has changed their policy, he is blacklisted for up to 5 years regardless of whether or not he pays Wells Fargo that $101.70. Chexsystems is evil, and he will play hell trying to find a bank that does not utilize their 'services.' I found this out the hard way thanks to US Bank and an ex-girlfriend several years ago.

1 replies

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floraposte

@pot_roast: And that's where to me it turns into a general consumer issue. I have the feeling that even if the Shell charge was an error, the snowball may still have rolled downhill and removed his ability to have a bank account. That's the mechanism I'm interested in, whether the OP made a misstep in his particular case or not.

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KreativeHitman13

Unfortunately I have no mercy for the submitter. As a bank employee, I hand each and every customer a disclosure when they open thier account that states how pending charges work, pre-auathorizations on debit cards (gas stations, hotels, rental cars) and account closing procedures. It is the customers responsibility to make us aware of any unposted charges on thier account at the time of closing. *If you say its the banks fault, look at it this way. If it was an unposted charge from a gas station, it was done on a debit card. That means it was pre-authorized on the visa network. When a card is pre-auth'd it is not immediately reported to the banks records. There is anywhere from 6-24 hours before the bank recieves notice of the charge, and up to 3 days before the charge is hardposted and the money coming off the account. If a customer closes there account before this, and a charge comes through its the customers responsibility to pay this.* I know im going to get flak for this, and everybody is going to say Blame the Bank! Blame the Bank! This situation is not the banks fault. Just the same if the customers wrote out a check, and it wasnt posted to thier account but they closed it. If its within 24 hours of closing the account and the check comes through, it gets paid and the customer recieves a bill. If the customer isnt responsible enough to keep a check register and they close the account and recieve money back on something they committed to another purchase, THEY WILL HAVE TO PAY IT. Its NOT the banks fault.
And... incoming crazy people responding to this post.

9 replies

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deniseb

@KreativeHitman13: Because of course every one of your customers reads his account agreement.

I can't even SEE my account agreement.

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floraposte

@deniseb: Sure, but that's where the onus swings back to the consumer to some extent. I agree that important stuff shouldn't be hidden (I don't like it when my credit union tucks a rules change in amid their piles of spammy mailings, for instance), but if a customer gets the account agreement and then doesn't read it, I'm hard-pressed to put the bank on the hook for that.

If by \"can't see\" you mean the account agreement is in really small print, you can often find the account agreement online with a google site: search and the phrase \"account agreement\"; you can then magnify to your heart's content. If there's an actual visual impairment, the bank may be obliged/able to provide you with an adaptation--it's worth asking.

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greggen

@KreativeHitman13: As a bank customer, i have noticed that when I make a change with my visa debit it is posted to to my bank account with a matter of minutes, never longer than an hour.
The bank had a responsibility to notify the OP sooner than a month. THAT was the banks fault
OP. I suggest you send a check to Wells fargo for the 60, write in the notes that \"this is payment in full to settle account #xxx\"

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KreativeHitman13

@greggen: As a bank employee, this is why customers like you make me crazy. You are notified when your account is past due. In this case... 30 days. Also.. writing things in the memo line of the check does nothing. If you write in the memo line that it settles account blah blah and the bank accepts the check, it has no legal value. You still owe the bank the rest and something in a memo line will not hold up in court as i assume small claims is your next response. HOWEVER you can write that same information on the back of the check. EX *Endorsment of this check agrees that account XX is paid in full and no other monies are owed.* That would be an example of a conditional endorsement tthat would work for what your aiming to do. However, banks dont typically accept conditionally endorsed checks. Point is, the customer owes money and you cant get out of paying for it.

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tonberryqueen

@KreativeHitman13: I think that 100% of the previous posts agreed with you.

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farwest1

@KreativeHitman13: I agree that the Op probably should have been more careful about all charges going through.

However, banks are huge corporate bureaucracies and sometimes, sometimes they forget that their intricate procedures (written in small type on long forms) aren't necessarily fully understood by every Joe Average customer.

I think the bank has an obligation to both explain the closing procedure to the customer at the time of closing, and to help him to make sure that all charges have gone through.

Based on my own experience, banks don't care very much about individual account-holders, except insofar as they can make money from them (as many, many posts on Consumerist have shown.)

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KreativeHitman13

@farwest1: You either agree with the bank or the customer. Dont aguee both sides. If the customer doesnt understand the procedures they should ask and have them clarified. If you feel banks have intricate procedures that joe average doesnt understand... ASK about them and learn what they are. Dont have questions and wait to ask until its too late. If you dont bother to inform yourself at the start, dont blame the bank at the end because you dont understand it. Simple.

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NatalieErin

@KreativeHitman13: Who are you to say someone can't agree with one action of the bank, and disagree with another action of the bank? Or do the same to the customer? That's completely ridiculous.

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KreativeHitman13

@NatalieErin: Because its not about two actions. Its about the customer feeling they were mischarged or charged higher than they deserve. If you agree with the bank, then you do. If you agree with the customer, then you do. You cant say they are both right or wrong on one thing. Were only talking about one thing.

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floraposte

@KreativeHitman13: Actually, many of us are talking about several things--for instance, the several different charges the OP has received. As NatalieErin suggests, one can support one of the charges and object to another. If the gas transaction was a recent and accurate one, I agree that the OP is being fairly charged on the NSF funds charge. I would need to know more about the justification for the $41 charge for ChexSystems, payment of which won't get the OP off the blacklist, before I can agree to the justifiability of that charge.

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KreativeHitman13

@floraposte: In my opinion, (key phrase) the charges in general are the topic. Like i have stated in previous posts if you object to a type of charge or fee you should not open the account to begin with. If a bank offers a service you like, but there is one type of fee disclosed that you are not happy with you should not open the account. I think that is more the problem, people who agree to the charge when they sign to open the account and then try to fight it later when they knew it would happen.

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floraposte

@KreativeHitman13: I can see that that would be frustrating to be at the receiving end of, but I can't entirely agree that anything people are informed of is therefore fair game, especially without limits to what \"informed of\" means. So I think you and I are simply on different sides on some aspects of this issue.

But it's also been a really educational discussion, and I thank you for that. I'm still curious about cutoff on stale checks and debit charges--do you know anything about that? Is there law that limits the time a stale charge needs to be honored on an account, closed or otherwise?

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KreativeHitman13

@floraposte: Answered for you on the next page of comments, under Bob Lus post.

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KreativeHitman13

@KreativeHitman13: And as an edit about checksystems. Other banks should be aware of this because the customer obviously isnt completely responsible with thier money. If he didnt want to be reported to checksystems, he should have A)picked a bank that doesnt report to checksystems (not many) or B) been responsible with his money in the first place and avoided it. And as an answer to a previous post, if he pays off what he owes his name will not automatically come off the checksystems record. It will however be shown as resolved when another bank pulls the report.
To the customer, pay it off and request the record be removed. Our bank is happy to do that for people who are reported and resolve issues in a timely manner.

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Aesteval

@KreativeHitman13: \"Timely manner.\" That's the key here, we don't have enough details to know what was done in timely manners on any side of the issue. The gas station may not have processed the charge in a timely manner because the legal obligation to process the charge extends much further than what is normally construed as being \"timely.\" The bank may not have informed the customer in a timely manner and could have jumped the gun on the reporting before the former customer even had a chance to deal with it. And there could have been \"timely\" issues on the part of the former customer as well.

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jamar0303

...I think the bigger problem here is that charges take that long to go through. In China debit charges will generally clear in hours, not days. The only thing that takes days is wiring money between different banks. Why can China do it and not America?
Oh, and the ChexSystems report. So on top of charging him that much they're going to essentially prevent him from getting a checking account at any other large-ish bank?

3 replies

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roguemarvel

@jamar0303: The US system probably should be changed, how ever there are people who rely on the system the way it is (sadly) and don't want it changed. There is also the fact that some aspects of the system such as order of posting are state regulated which makes it harder to change nationally. If you want it changed write to US reps and ask for it to be changed. Its just harder to change with the government we have set up here. This is not a knock on China, but with the current government there its probably a lot easier to make policy changes.

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craptastico

@jamar0303: in the bank's eyes the OP wrote a check against a closed account, which technically is fraud. you're absolutely right about debit charges taking so long to clear. i don't see why it can't be instantaneous. they check that the money's there instantaneously, why not reserve the funds at the same time? also, this is another reason to use CCs instead of DCs

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KreativeHitman13

@craptastico: I think its a reason for people to KEEP A CHECK REGISTER and not DOUBLE SPEND THIER MONEY. If people could commit to doing this, there would be ZERO overdrafts, ZERO bad checks, ZERO NSF fees. Its so simple to blame everybody but yourself.

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jamar0303

@KreativeHitman13: My bank dings me a service fee. I expect some SERVICE for that money. Like clearing payments in a reasonable timeframe. I'M supposed to be keeping the check register by hand? RLY? Here I just go to the ATM every so often, stuff it in, and it fills in any transactions that have occurred since the last time I got it filled in. Of course I'm not going to blame myself when the reasonable expectation isn't such. I have too many checking accounts in China. Unlike what you seem to expect, all I have to do is stuff in the book one last time into the ATM to make sure nothing's pending and then I go and close the account. Nothing will go through if it doesn't show up on the register because transactions go through here just like that.

@craptastico: I see where you're coming from there- as far as they can see the charge hit when the account was no longer open even though it was supposed to happen when the account was still open.
And China-issued debit cards, even from Citibank, don't have this problem, like I said above. If I swipe in America (though due to the inter-network agreement I'm limited to the Discover network- oh joy) the transaction shows up a little slower than a domestic transaction, but it still doesn't take DAYS.
(Maybe it's just sour grapes- I'm an AU on my cousin's Discover card but I barely touch it due to not being able to pay for my use afterward -or rather, not being able to without a good portion of it disappearing due to int'l wire fees- and I can't get a local credit card due to not having a work visa)

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KreativeHitman13

@jamar0303: YES YOUR SUPPOSED TO KEEP A REGISTER OF YOUR TRANSACTIONS. YOUR JOKING RIGHT? HOW DO YOU KEEP TRACK OF YOUR MONEY? THE ATM? ITS NOT THE BANKS PROBLEM FOR WHEN CHARGES POST. THE RETAILER AND THIER MERCHANT THAR PROCESSES PAYMENTS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR REPORTING CHARGES. IF YOU SPEND MONEY WITHOUT KNOWING EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE, YOUR AN IRRESPONSIBLE PERSON THAT SHOULDNT HAVE ACCESS TO A DEBIT CARD. YOU CAUSE YOUR OWN PROBLEMS AND DESERVE THE FEES YOU GET BECAUSE OF YOUR IGNORANCE.

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jamar0303

@KreativeHitman13: No, I just happen to live in a country with a REASONABLE card-based payment system. Why do charges not hard-post within an hour of the transaction occurring in America? THAT's the abnormal thing to me. To be completely accurate, it's the fault of the UnionPay (THE debit card network in China, linked to Discover; Visa/MC/AmEx are all relegated to tourist use) network if a charge doesn't post the day I swipe. And see, I know exactly what I have because I CAN GO TO AN ATM BEFORE I SWIPE AND HAVE AN UP-TO-DATE BALANCE IN FRONT OF ME. The bank doesn't charge me an overdraft fee because IT DOESN'T LET ME OVERDRAFT. THIS ISN'T IGNORANCE, THIS IS LIFE UNDER A BETTER SYSTEM AND I PROBABLY WON'T BE LETTING GO OF THESE ACCOUNTS EVEN AFTER I MOVE BACK TO AMERICA.

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KreativeHitman13

@jamar0303: Once again.. complaining about the system doesnt do anything usefull. If you like that system.. great. But here in America, we have a different system where things dont post within the hour. And it takes a certain degree of responsibility to maintain a check register that you are obviously not prepared for. Keep your china accounts, thats your choice but dont complain about a system you dont want to be a part of that requires responsibility.

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jamar0303

@KreativeHitman13: I just happen to think that \"responsibility\" is being used as a cop-out for a flawed system here. Maybe complaining about it will do nothing. You're right, I'm definitely keeping my China accounts for in-person purchases when I move back to America (I happened to move over before I had to start dealing savings accounts, let alone checking accounts, so when I started becoming financially literate I did so in an environment that's closer to ideal than what I will be dealing with in the future, apparently). I don't want to be part of a system that can't even process payments in a timely manner. I will inevitably be dragged kicking and screaming into it (the UnionPay-Discover agreement doesn't cover online purchases, and apparently few US companies that direct-deposit or direct-debit are prepared to handle foreign accounts unless working for a foreign subsidiary in the country in question) and this is part of that \"kicking and screaming\", I guess. Oh, America.

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KreativeHitman13

@jamar0303: If you feel the system is flawed, then dont participate in it. Obviously you dont like the US system and you dont use it, so i do agree with you there. However, if you do use the US bank system and you dont follow the way it works, its not the banks fault. If you dont want to balance a check book, thats your choice. The US bank system requires that you balance a check book to keep an accurate balance of your account. That is the responsibility im talking about. If you dont want that responsibility, dont be part of a system that requires you to do it and then complain about it when a problem comes up. If you dont want to blance a checkbook for your balance and you go to an offshore bank thats reallly just fine with me. Dont complain though when you are part of a us bank and you dont do what is needed. I know im rambling at this point but its a very simple fix.

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treimel

@KreativeHitman13:

Wait a minute--I'm with you 100% that the OP messed up and it is his fault that he's in this situation; but what's all this \"don't participate if you don't like it\" stuff--there's nothing qrong with comparing systems and indicating that the US should change its system. Under your theory, one can't criticize a system, or advocate for any change, it's simply take it or leave it. Nothing ever improves with that mindset.

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KreativeHitman13

@treimel: If you dont like the way something works, dont be a part of it and complain about it. You are more than welcome to be a part of a foreign bank ,and complain about a us bank. Go for it. That can prompt a change. But being part of us banks and complaining about us banks does nothing. They still have your business, your still giving them money, and therfore there is no reason to change. Complain and join them when its better.

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K-Bo

@jamar0303: If you don't keep a register, how do you know that the information printed out by the bank is correct? I was taught that keeping a register was as much to catch bank errors as it was to know how much money you have. Easier than trying to remember ever <$5 transaction you make.

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jamar0303

@K-Bo: Match up receipts with the computer-filled register, that's how. Here, there is a standardized \"card receipt\" for any card-based transaction. Granted, this gets harder for int'l transactions (it took me a couple of minutes to figure out that a 144RMB charge printed out on the book corresponded to a 1890yen purchase in Japan- did I mention that I don't get charged any foreign transaction fees on my card?) but it all works out in the end. None of the banks I have accounts with have ever made any errors. The only error was made by me- trying to check my balance outside China. I apparently get charged the equivalent of US$.60 each time I do that (but not with Citibank on a Citibank ATM).

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K-Bo

@jamar0303: If you have all the receipts, it's easy to find out how much money you have. If you have every receipt, you have a less organized register.

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TCama

When you close an account, the best thing to do is to not use your card for a week or so, and keep an eye on checks to make sure they've all gone through. Banks are supposed to ask you about those charges when you close the account, but they sometimes don't.

I closed a SunTrust account, but didn't realize that though a TGI Friday's charge has cleared, the tip hadn't. So they charged the $6.27 after I closed the account, and I was stuck with $105 in fees after a week or so (they didn't tell me about the charge until there were $105 in fees on it). Luckily, I convinced a CSR to waive one fee and the branch manager to waive two more, unwittingly. Then I paid the $6.27, as I rightfully owed it to them, and closed the account.

6 replies

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KreativeHitman13

@TCama: PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT CONSTANTLY ASK FOR FEES TO BE WAIVED MAKE ME INSANE. You opened the account, you read and agreed to all of the account disclosures and fees. When you get a fee, DONT ASK FOR THEM TO BE REFUNDED. Its like walking into wal-mart, buying groceries and eating the food. Then days later, asking for your money back because the steak tasted like crap. If you dont like it, DONT buy it in the first place. Go somewhere else. If you dont like a bank procedures, go the hell somewhere else. If you dont like whats on TV change the channel. Dont complain after the fact. Are you getting the idea?
And dont reply **Wah wah all banks charge these crazy fees!** Howabout you be responsible with your money in the first place and avoid everything? Every overdraft situation or fee situation starts with the customer doing something wrong and complaining about the bank. Its your fault. If its the banks fault, were going to reverse it no problem. But... its not in this case or the case of the submitter of the original story.

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katstermonster

@KreativeHitman13: You need to chill the hell out. This is the internet - no need to take yourself so seriously. While you're at it, please take your finger off the shift key. Your internet yelling is giving us all a headache.

While we're at it, a waived fee or two never hurt anyone. It's not always black and white.

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jamar0303

@katstermonster: +1.
@KreativeHitman13: At least you're being informative now. Now I'm starting to see the \"method to the madness\", as it were.

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katstermonster

@jamar0303: Amazing, how so much good information can be spoiled by being rude. Self-filtering FTW!

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psm321

@KreativeHitman13: If you don't like the bank's procedure of sometimes waiving fees when the customer asks, go somewhere else.

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Kimaroo - 100% Pure Natural Kitteh

@KreativeHitman13: Oh of course.. every single NSF situation is the consumer's fault.. because banks never ever make errors.. and merchants never ever double charge or anything crazy like that.

And here I was agreeing with you until this post.

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h3llc4t, breaker of office dress codes

@Kimaroo - Fortified with Kittydus Purrularis: +1
The vitriol is strong with this one.

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floraposte

@h3llc4t, breaker of office dress codes: Yeah, the stuck capslock key didn't help much either.

Maybe this falls under \"Why people hate banks\"--even when they've got a justifiable position, they have to become jackasses about it?

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KreativeHitman13

@Kimaroo - Fortified with Kittydus Purrularis: Obviously you didnt read the entire post and just replied for no reason. I clearly said that there are times its the banks fault. This situation its not the banks fault. If it was, he wouldnt have to pay and story over.
Dont post your sarcastic responses without knowing the entire story. Perfect example of people jumping the gun and not having facts.

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jamar0303

@KreativeHitman13: No. Most people expect the tip to clear AT THE SAME TIME as the rest of the tab.
I'm \"getting the idea\", And I \"go the hell somewhere else\" already. China, to be precise, because the idea is apparently that US financial institutions can do without my money (well, that Citi account is just for the convenience factor, but most of my money is with Bank of China and Standard Chartered). But offshore accounts aren't a reasonable option for most people; I just happen to be here so I'm opening a couple of checking accounts (and closing an unnecessary one) before I leave. They don't ding me with crazy fees here. Lost a card? Costs me less than US$1. Overdraft? No way, the sales terminal will show \"Insufficient Funds\" instead and I get out my cash.

It's also nice not having to worry about tips and stuff here. It's also nice being able to have reasonable conversations too, *insert clue-by-four here*.

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KreativeHitman13

@jamar0303: If that is your response to being a responsible consumer and not keeping a check register like an adult and tracking your money, so be it. If you want to bank in china, great. If you 'expect the tip to clear at the same time' then you obviously dont track your money in any way besides waiting for problems to come.

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jamar0303

@KreativeHitman13: Uh, if I pay for my meal, shouldn't it all go through as one charge? It's on the same receipt, after all. And I collect those to match to my ATM-printed register. Don't play dumb and act like I *just* rely on the ATM. I rely on it more than you people, apparently, but I still have other paper trails for transactions. Trust but verify, and I've never been failed once. Everything comes through in the right order.

And you still defend a system with such an obvious flaw as promoting responsibility... that's not what a computerized system is for. Why don't we scrap this altogether if that's what you're going for? The reason for electronic transaction processing is for speed and convenience. And I thought people were nuts after I read the healthcare thread.

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KreativeHitman13

@jamar0303: No it wont go as the same charge. Have you ever paid for a meal and wrote your tip down before they swipe your card? No you havent. The original charge, for the meal is swiped first. That is called a pre-auhtorization. The funds are held on that card, but not hardposted to the customers card. Why? Because the ammount is going to change if a tip is put on the card vs left on the table. Once the tip is wrote on the paper and the restaurant posts that charge to thier bank, then the merchant the bank uses 'settles' the charge and hardposts the full ammount. Thats why it doesnt post immmediately. Same if you rent hotel room. They make want 200$ as a security, and that ammount is pre-authorized on the card. It is on hold, but not removed from the account. Why? Because in the long run, that charge most likely will not be posted to the account for the ammount of the preauth. It may be lower, it may be none at all. This is done to stop banks from refunding and charging a transaction. Im a restaurant, i charge you 40$ for your meal. You tip 10$ on the card. Instead of posting a debit for 40, and a debit for 10, its all hardposted as 50. Instead of posting a debit for 40, a refund for 40, and a debit for 50, its just hardposted as 50 and preauthorized in the time between. This saves banks from having to do multiple transactions for the same item. It saves the business money because it costs each time a transaction is hardposted. I dont see what your problem is in understanding this simple procedure.

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floraposte

@KreativeHitman13: But credit cards do it as one charge--why can't debit cards?

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KreativeHitman13

@floraposte: These are two seperate purchasing devices. A debit card works differently. A debit card is linked to a checking account with a set balance on it at a bank, ran through a visa or mastercard network. When you swipe a debit card you can make the purchase one of two ways. A debit or a credit.
A purchase made as a credit (non pin-based, signiature purchases) does not check your balance on the checking account it is linked to. Instead, it looks at the available POS (point of sale) balance on your card on the visa network. As long as you are under your daily spending limit, the purchase goes through. This creates what is called a pre-authorization. The funds are held on the card, but do not hard post until the merchant \"settles\" the transaction. When the merchant settles the transactions for the day, the bank recieves the payment and the money comes out of your checking account linked to the card. The reason for the 2nd charge, is the card is first swiped and pre-authorized for the initial charge. The card is then manually entered at the end of the night and pre-authorized for the 2nd charge of the tip you leave. Now you card has two pre-auths. Then the merchant settles the transaction, and one hard post goes to your bank, and the money comes out of your checking account to pay for it.
However, if you use your card as a debit, (pin based, non signiature) your card is checked against your bank balance immediately, and this is where you can have your card declined on the spot. Youll never have this type of charge in a respectable restaurant, because pin based transactions cost a merchant more to process than a signiature based transaction.
The reason for the 2 transactions on a pin based debit purchase is that the total transaction ammount can change. Ex You buy a meal at a restaurant. Its 50. You pay with your card. Thats pre-auth 1. You then leave a tip on the card for 10. Thats pre-auth 2. If the merchant would have hard charged the card for the first 50, and then hard charged for the 10, you would see two transactions on your statement. Merchants stay away from that because it costs them each time someting is hardposted. By preauthing it saves them money of posting 2 charges.
I dont work in a credit card processing center, so i cant comment on how a credit card processes. I would guess it is somewhat different though becaues of not having to report and charge a bank from a checking account.

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floraposte

@KreativeHitman13: Okay, cool. I didn't know that. Thank you.

I withdraw my annoyance with your all-caps entry--you've been really informative since then :-).

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KreativeHitman13

@floraposte: I work in the industry, and its frustrating sometimes. Sory for the caps entries. It was before lunch, and lunch fixes the rage. :)

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bwcbwc

@KreativeHitman13: So in other words, paying for a restaurant meal with a debit card is a fool's game.

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TCama

@KreativeHitman13: Hmm. It seems to me that asking for the fees to be waived was a good idea, since the bank did it. If you don't want people to ask for the fees to be waived in the first place, why do you waive them when asked?

Also, yeah, it definitely cost SunTrust $105 to give me what amounted to a one-week loan for $6.27. Shame on me for taking the money they deserve for that privilege.

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farwest1

I had virtually this same thing happen. Disastrous story:

Two months ago, I checked my credit report and saw that I had a fee from Wells Fargo for $300+ that had been sent to collections a year ago. The weird thing was, I had closed my Wells Fargo account three years ago. As I sleuthed it out, here's what happened:

On the day I closed my Wells Fargo account (because my wife and I were merging our accounts to her bank after our wedding), Wells Fargo charged me a final checking account fee of $6. The trouble was, I closed my account in the morning, emptying it of money and making sure that every transaction had gone through.

The bank apparently took until the next morning for the account to fully close, during which time the $6 fee went through, overdrafting the account and adding a $33 charge. So the account never closed. But I went on my merry way, assuming it was all shut down.

My wife and I, newly married, moved to a new address. Our mail from Wells Fargo wasn't forwarded. Wells Fargo may have sent me notices about overdrawn account, but I never received them. The $6 a month charge continued to accrue over the next 12 months, each time racking up a $33 overdraft fee.

The only reason I discovered the error was when I checked my credit report. I went to a Wells Fargo branch and talked to the manager. She was nice enough to waive all of the $33 overdraft fees, but I did have to pay the $6 checking fee for every month that the account had remained open. She also sent a letter to the credit agencies informing them of what had happened.

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morlo

@farwest1: \"checking account fee of $6\" is where your problem began

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arimer

As a wells fargo customer I can't say this surprises me. Seems they do everything they can to make your balances confusing. This is a situation I run into every month. I pay my cellphone bill with At&t on a Monday. For Monday and Tuesday the transaction shows as cleared. Wednesday it will disappear for about 3 days. By disappear I mean the transaction is no longer listed. The money is back in your account. After the 3 or so days It comes back.

Not to mention the way they work hard to shuffle your transactions if you overdraft. I've had them shuffle things from weeks prior.

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roguemarvel

As far as I know Wells Fargo doesn't report to check systems untill they forcibly close the account and I don't think they charge to put someone in check system. Charges will continue to build up if the account has a negative balance, depending on the state the account was opened in.

I'm not sure about Wachovia and they are still going by the same policies.

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roguemarvel

@roguemarvel: The same policies they have had before, they won't switch over till they are fully switch over to Wells Fargo

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samurailynn

Ugh... something similar happened to me once. Except it was a check that was almost a year old. A couple of months before I closed my account, I asked my sister-in-law if she had cashed it, since I knew I was planning on closing the account soon and I had never checked off that check as being cashed. She assured me that she had cashed it \"a long time ago\". So, I mostly stopped using the account for a month and a half or so and then withdrew most of the money from the account. There was less than $20 left in the account and I would need to go in to a branch to close the account and withdraw the rest of the money. So, in the approximately one week that there was less than $20 in the account my sister-in-law cashes the check that she had supposedly cashed a long time ago. This was already about 6 weeks after I had asked her about cashing it. It bounced, and I had to pay a returned check fee. Sure, I probably shouldn't have trusted her word that she had cashed it, since I didn't show it having cleared, but I thought I'd just missed it and I really needed to close the account since it had some restrictions because I'd opened it in a different state. The lesson it taught me was that I will never again use a check to transfer money to my in-laws.

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h3llc4t, breaker of office dress codes

@samurailynn: Ouch. It would have been nice for your SIL to at least give you a heads up when she found the check.

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Kimaroo - 100% Pure Natural Kitteh

@samurailynn: I've learned this hard lesson as well.. only it was my dad.

I used to pay him by check each month for my part of the family plan on our cellphones, and for some reason he likes to hold onto these checks for a long time.

I told him I was switching banks, but he could still cash that check since I left the old account open with enough money to cover it.

I waited months and months and he never cashed it.. so one day I called him and said \"Just shread that check, I'll send you a new one to my new account\" and he said ok and he would and all that jazz.. then about a week later I got a letter about an overdraft fee from my old bank. I called my dad and he said he forgot all about it and just thought he should chash it!

Thankfully he paid the fee for me.. but I only pay him in cash now.

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floraposte

@Kimaroo - Fortified with Kittydus Purrularis: And that's why I'd like to know if there are any limits on \"zombie debits\"--could the OP's gas charge be from the previous year, say?

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sharkzfanz

@floraposte:

No that would be to much speculation.. He is not saying it is not his charge or it is from an absurd time ago.. It was probability his last fill-up and didn't check... He should man up and pay and move on.. Fight the $41 extra but pay the $60 and learn a lesson.

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floraposte

@sharkzfanz: I'm not so much talking to this specific case as using it as an example. Is there any limit on the duration between a debit incurred and a debit drawn against the account? If there's not, or if it's longer than, say, 30 days, it's pretty tough to preclude this kind of thing.

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sharkzfanz

This is simple bottom line..

He charged $30 he needs to pay it no matter what.

He should have kept a check book log or at least accounted for the funds in his account and not trusted the bank to do this and have everything cleared. He should also have waited say 1 week without making a single transaction to be safe.

Due to this he should pay the $30 NSF.

That is $60 he should pay 100%. The other $41 or so he should tell up a breakdown of that. Just since one teller said it is from XXXX doesn't make it true. Get the exact and then post in a reply or get the post updated then we can tell you the best course of action.

Also I agree there is no reason to have your new account closed... I would investigate that more as something is not adding up.

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lannister80

Just FYI, it's spelled: Chex Systems.

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floraposte

@lannister80: Though apparently it's that nice American corporate all-one-word approach rather than two separate words: [en.wikipedia.org]

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humphrmi

[www.consumerbadcreditguide.com]

The new account was probably closed because of the NSF's. The problem is, if you're in Chex Systems database, any other bank that you try to open an account with is probably going to check the Chex database too, so you're going to have a hard time opening a new account anywhere.

Time to fess up to your mistake and try to move on. You, not the bank, withdrew all your funds with a pending transaction. Small claims court? Hah. Sure, judges need a good laugh now and then.

Not being one to criticize and not offer a solution, here's a web page that talks about how to challenge a Chex entry, and also how to get a new checking account with a bad Chex record:

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KreativeHitman13

@humphrmi: +1 for getting it.

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Bob Lu

Question, somewhat related:

If I have a checking account and I decide to close it, but I know there are some checks I wrote long time ago which are never cashed, and I can't get contact with those whom I paid to, does that mean I am stuck with the account, like, forever? Or does personal checks expire?

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floraposte

@Bob Lu: And I'd like to expand that question to debits. How long do you have to wait for somebody else to get their act together before you're clear of risk on it?

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KreativeHitman13

@floraposte: The checks would require you put a stop payment on them unless they are 6months old or more. They would then be considered 'stale dated' and unnaccepted. Debits you are required to wait 3 days. After 3 days if a merchant doesnt settle the transaction and post it to your bank, you are not obligated to pay it. That however, does not include; rental cars, hotels, airline tickets, gas station purchases, or any other type of payment where the ammount can change over a period of time. But if you go to mcdonalds and its not posted by 3 days, you can close the account.

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floraposte

@KreativeHitman13: Aha! I'm getting closer to Full Knowledge! Does the 6 months thing mean that if a bank were to accidentally put such a check through without noticing the date, I could say \"Hey, that's too old\"? And do the variable-charge transactions have a 3-day limit that's past the use date rather than the swipe date, or is there a bigger loophole for them?

I can't be the only person who's been in the dark about these details, and I appreciate your willingness to shed some light.

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KreativeHitman13

@floraposte: No problem. I cant speak for other banks but mine, but i would assume the way banks are regulated that its the same for all.
Our account disclosures and rules state that the we are not responsible for looking at the dates on checks if they are POST DATED. So, if its the 20th and you write a check for the 25th and its brought in to be cashed on the 23rd it will be honored. If you get a fee from it, so be it. (Sucks, but postdating checks is not a legal way to write a check.) However, when it comes to checks that are dated past 6 months old (again 6 months is our banks number, not everybodies) we will not accept them for cash or deposit. That person will have to obtain a new check from the person who wrote it to them. If the bank does make a mistake and cashes the check after 6 months, the customer can dispute that and have the check returned. If a fee was assessed to the customer because of that, it will be returned due to bank error. A check can be returned for any reason up to 3 years from the time it is deposited or cashed due to; bad endorsements, check modifications, or stale dating.

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floraposte

@KreativeHitman13: Okay, thanks, yet again. And thanks also on the \"can be returned up to 3 years\" thing--I'd heard that the initial clearing isn't the same as a guarantee, and it sounds like that's why.

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KreativeHitman13

@floraposte: What do you mean by 'clearing a guarantee'? Do you mean that once the check is made available to you from you bank are you gauranteed to keep the funds?
Each bank has thier own rules on funds availability. For us, if you deposit a check, we make the funds available from it on the next business day. So today is monday and you deposit a 100$ check. Tomorrow morning you can spend that 100$. However, the bank has not collected the funds on that check. It can take up to a week for the bank to collect money on the check. Monday, you deposit the 100$ check. Tuesday you spend 100$ at the mall. Wednesday or thursday the bank the check is wrote from sends the check back for NSF (non sufficient funds). The 100$ deducts from your bank account, plus a NSF deposit fee. 5-7$ for us.
Heres an example of the 3 year rule. You get a check from somebody for 100$. The person who wrote you the check forgot to write out the full ammount of the check, but has everything else correct. You write in the written ammount for that person and deposit the check. 2.5 years later the person looks back at the image of the check, doesnt remember that you wrote it in for them. They can have that check returned! You then have the check deducted, and any fees associated with it! So rule, dont change a check, even if its just something simple like putting a dash in the date.
I hope i covered what your question was about! :)

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floraposte

@KreativeHitman13: Yup, thanks. I was thinking of people who claim that if you just hold the check for 10 days, then you're absolutely safe because it's cleared by then. This used to be a regular eBay debate between sellers who shipped upon receipt of the check and sellers who wanted to hold the item for 10 days or so because then they felt safe. While I suspect that probably more checks fail at the earlier stage than the later stage, many of the \"what the hell, just ship it\" sellers made the accurate point that there was no reasonable shipping date that left you safe from claw-back. (I just bought, and I paid with CC, so I stayed out of it.)

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Synth3t1c

Dude needs to man-up and pay his tab. This is why you wait a week or two with a hundred or so dollars before closing the account, most cc processes dont go through the same day...

The OP is clearly at fault

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smiling1809

Well, he can solve his problem by learning simple math and by not closing an account before all transactions are clear. Did he think he was just off the hook for the gas?

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digisplicer

Not that I've done this often but whenever I am ready to close a banking account, I stop using the associated debit card two weeks before and take out all funds except for about $100. I figure this ought to be enough to cover any small purchases that might take a while to get submitted to the bank. Once the two weeks is over, I close the account taking with me whatever funds are left.

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travel_nut

Really, he just waltzed on in, and closed his account without thought to any pending debits?

When you close an account, it's just common sense to leave it open with $100+ in it (more, if you usually have larger transactions) for at least 2 weeks after you last use your debit card, to make sure that all charges have cleared.

He should definitely pay the $60, and try to get a better idea of what the extra $40 is for.

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cranke

The exact same thing happened to me. Only the ATM usage occurred 7 days after the account was closed. WF told me that I owed them $80 because of a $2 debit. AMAZING.

I had no problem paying back the $2 as it was a mistake on my part when I accidentally swiped an old card. But why didn't WF reject the charge at POS?????

Anyway, long story short, I was told by WF CS that I had to go into a branch to discuss crediting the fees. Went in at lunch time and acted as sweet as possible. No dice! I became very vocal, to the point customers were leaving the bank. Still no dice. Eventually I called customer service from the CS phone inside the branch and the rep deleted all charges. It took 30 seconds on the phone.

Why did WF make me run around in circles? Just another reason why I felt so happy switching to a credit union.

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johnmc

Being another former Wells Fargo customer, I am also not surprised by this. Don't expect much (if any) better from USBank. Leave now before they complete the merger just to be safe.

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LastError

I feel bad for the person but they blew it.

1) You need to know your bank account and track all of your transactions. Checks, debit card, ACH, everything. If something hasn't cleared, you will know it if you are paying attention.

2) When you are closing out a bank account, leave it sit for an extra month or two with some money left in it. Watch for transactions.

3) When nothing has gone through in after two months, AND after you have verified that everything normal IS coming out of your new account, then and only then should you close the old account.

Yes, he or she should pay the bill. It's not Wells Fargo's fault this happened.

Before I get accused of being a WF fan, I closed my Wachovia account this year because I refuse to do business with Wells Fargo. They bungled a 401K years ago and lost my trust. So it was bailout time the moment they took over Wachovia. But despite my rage, I followed the steps I noted above and calmly vacated the account and suffered not one issue with leaving.

They never once asked me why I was leaving or asked me to stay. They don't care.

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bwcbwc

I see a lot of \"What he should have done.\" answers, but nothing about what he should do now. What is the the process for getting annotations into ChexSystems or getting his record cleared. Agreed, the $100+ is probably money he'll have to pay, but how does he clean up his record so he can get a new checking account?

February 21, 2010 3:03 PM

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CaliGuy

A week or so ago I depoisted a check into my Wells Fargo savings account for almost $16,000.00, proceeds from the sale of a vehicle. Within a few days I learned the check was a fraud so I notified Wells Fargo, my local police dept. as well as the FBI. No one seemed interested. The police told me that since I still have the car I hadn't been viticimized. Wells Fargo stated they had to wait for the check to be returned to them.... all the while the funds remained in my account.

I never touched the funds knowing they would be withdrawn once the check was returned. One day after the check was returned, Wells Fargo froze my accounts...not allowing me to withdraw or deposit...and stated the accounts would be closed in 2 weeks. I was never given a explanation or reason but a rep. simply stated they did this \"because they can\". At this point, I have no access to my money!