@summerbee: Rum and coke (soda type) is my fav type of drink. If I drink enough of them and have sex later ensures that I can last longer and stay up late. LOL.

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guaporico

The decision is partly based on scientific studies that show mixing caffeine and alcohol can be dangerous -- a stimulant and a depressant, no kidding! The FDA is putting the responsibility on the companies to show otherwise.

Mixing drinks at home is an entirely different story, as it doesn't need to be regulated. You could mix mouthwash and coffee if you really wanted, but it would be really stupid.

New drugs go through extensive clinical trials to determine the effectiveness and side effects through several years. Long term effects can be masked -- which is why it's always wise to wait for several years before using a new drug. The number of drugs recalled due to issues is extremely small.

I find it amusing how people brush off these sort of investigations when it uses chemicals they know (caffeine and alcohol), but go nuts when the FDA quickly approve the a vaccine that uses components that have been tested for years (H1N1)...

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ShadowFalls

@guaporico:

Well it isn't just that. It is the amount of caffeine that needs to be taken into consideration as well.

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MikeM_inMD

@guaporico:

Mixing drinks at home is an entirely different story, as it doesn't need to be regulated.

But they mix alcohol and caffine at bars FOR SALE. Should the FDA tell all bars, taverns, etc. to stop selling Rum & Coke and Irish Coffee?

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catastrophegirl chooses not to fly

@summerbee: so what you're really saying is that you make your own at home?

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TouchMyMonkey

@summerbee: First post, saying exactly what was going through my mind. Mix bourbon and Coke, and you have a caffeinated alcoholic beverage. If you really want to get loaded and wide awake at the same time, try Irish coffee. Hmm, whiskey and coffee. Interesting combo, to say the least.

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zacox

@HurtsSoGood: Screw the rum and coke. Just how many Jager Bombs were poured in the USA yesterday?!

I'm sorry, but the bit about caffeine masking the effects of alcohol, leading to poorer decisions, is baloney. Intoxication is so subjective from person to person, and even in the same person from day to day. It's based on height, weight, gender, stomach contents,tolerance, licit and illicit drugs in the bloodstream, mood, and other non-trivial physical and emotional characteristics.

I know there have been times that I've consumed four alcohol beverages and been well on my way, and there are other times I didn't feel a thing.

It's a great thing we have the FDA to keep caffeine out of our alcohol instead of using those resources to better research prescription drugs that cause heart attacks or strokes or strange growths of feathers.

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jamar0303

@zacox:
*reads to last paragraph*
Wait a minute, what? People are sprouting feathers?

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col1999

@jamar0303:
*nods*
Yep. Sprouting feathers. Of course it's the strange growths of feathers that are really troubling.

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zacox

@jamar0303: and @col1999: Haha, I wondered if anyone would catch that!

The point was that the FDA tends to approve drugs for use when they don't know all the side effects. Thalidomide comes to mind... also Vioxx, phenylpropanolamine (PPA), and a few others I can't recall at the moment.

So why the hysterics over a two drugs of which they do know all the side effects, and which tend to play nicely together.

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perruptor

@zacox: The FDA did not approve Thalidomide for any use until 1998. It has never been approved here for use by pregnant women, as it was in Europe until the deformed babies started showing up. The FDA has enough problems. Don't blame them for stuff they didn't do.

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GinaLouise

@zacox: As perruptor mentioned, the FDA DID NOT approve thalidomide in the sixties. Thanks to one FDA employee in particular, Frances Oldham Kelsey, thalidomide was kept off the U.S. market. [en.wikipedia.org] It was only approved in the 1990s for leprosy and other stuff.

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subtlefrog

@zacox: Thalidomide is actually a bad argument - as tested it was safe. What went to market was what is known as an enantiomer, essentially a mirror image of the molecule, which, turns out reacts with the body entirely differently.

I'm not sure where in the chain this happened, who made this organic chemistry flub, but this was a drug co. screw up.

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subtlefrog

@subtlefrog: That's not to say I'm totally of the opinion that FDA needs to evaluate rum & coke, just pointing out neat O-chem trivia.

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zacox

@subtlefrog: Neat-O O-chem it is, alright. Did you know that the \"safe\" isomer is actually converted to the \"harmful\" one inside the body? No matter which chirality, there's a danger if you're pregnant. Safe as can be if you're not though!

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GearheadGeek

@HurtsSoGood: I prefer caffè corretto for that. Mmmmmm grappa.

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TheRealAbsurdist

Any cola-based drink?
Any coffee-based drink?
Methinks the FDA is overreacting due to hysterical overreaction from some members of the public.

9 replies

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LeChiffre

@TheRealAbsurdist: I think the issue is the direct addition of caffeine to the alcohol itself. In soda, the safe amount has already been added but the FDA is questioning the use of it in alcoholic drinks and they are probably also questioning the safety margin of how much per container. Many people are caffeine sensitive and too much can kill you.

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Aquasol

@TheRealAbsurdist: How is this overreacting? It's rather well-known that mixing a stimulant and a depressant will screw you over. They're not banning people who mix on their own, they're going for pre-mixed drinks made of stim/depressants.

The main reason for the 30-day issue is because no one submitted anything to certify it as GRAS for sale in the US. I fail to see the problem.

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XTC46

@Aquasol: I agree. It's one thing for people to mix crap on their own, its a whole different thing for a company to sell it in that form and call it safe.

I love red bull/vodka or jager bombs, but I also know that high caffine consumption alters how I feel when drunk and I act accordingly.

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ohenry

@xtc46 - thinksmarter on twitter: I think that the FDA would be better off, then, by examining how much caffiene is safe. Obviousely some caffiene is safe; you don't hear about an epidemic of people killing themselves after having rum and coke (or my favorite, souther comfort and Pepsi). The examples you give have red bull, which has much more caffiene than your average soda.

So I guess I'm saying that the question shouldn't be \"can we add caffiene to alcoholic beverages\", but \"how much caffiene is safe to add to alcoholic beverages\".

That's my thoughts, anyways.

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KyleOrton

@TheRealAbsurdist: Can a Canadian confirm this for me? I remember hearing at one time that Mt. Dew and similar drinks don't have caffeine in Canada because they're added artificially. I know that all Caffeine in regular sodas is added artificially, but I think the way they got away with it was that it would normally occur in original, natural colas.

Just wonderin'

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Kimaroo - 100% Pure Natural Kitteh

@futuresuperbowlMVPJayCutler: Its the same in Australia. If it does not occur naturally they can't add it. This is why I always have to remind Mr. Aroo that Mt Dew is a very caffinated beverage here, because that just doesn't make sense to him. And sunkist orange soda too!

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EarlNowak

@futuresuperbowlMVPJayCutler: I believe that under canadian law only Cola-colored drinks can be caffeinated. Coke, Pepsi, some root beers. All clear (or vaguely green mountain dewy) drinks are uncaffeinated.

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MightyDwarf56

@futuresuperbowlMVPJayCutler: While I do not know why Mt. Dew does not have caffeine, I can confirm (at least in Ontario) that the Mt. dew did not have it.

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catastrophegirl chooses not to fly

@futuresuperbowlMVPJayCutler: if mt dew in canada doesn't have caffiene, that would be weird. not that i drink it, but i thought the entire concept was the highly caffienated non cola beverage aspect.
of course, there also exists diet caffiene free mt dew which tells me some people must actually like the taste

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trujunglist

@TheRealAbsurdist:

it's not a hysterical overreaction, it's a government money making initiative. they saw that they didn't get proper approval, so now here come the fines, recalls, pay-offs - whatever it takes to get it resolved. I guarantee you that the resolution will equal money for the government though.

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Red

Would this affect the premixed stuff such as Jack and Cola in the bottles since they are not adding caffine, just cola that contains caffine. One way or another, I'll stick with my Goose and Red Bull.

3 replies

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GearheadGeek

@Red: Interesting... I thought the point of Grey Goose is supposedly that it tastes good... and you mix it with Red Bull? Wouldn't it be cheaper to use a big plastic bottle of Jim Bob's Generic Vodka? You'd still only taste the Red Bull...

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Megalomania

@Whyspir: stocked up last time I was down in NC (can't buy the 191 in this state :\\ )

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pr0k

@GearheadGeek:

I actually I'm a big fan of Goose and Red Bull as well, and I have to say you can still taste the vodka in this mixed drink and the quality of vodka is a huge difference.

I've had my share of \"well\" Red Bull and vodkas and I can't say I'd ever drink one again.

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BrandonOBrien

So no more Vodka and Red Bull? Sounds like every mixed drink in teh world containing coke, red bull, monster, etc would qualify this as GRAS

2 replies

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sonneillon

@BrandonOBrien: @GearheadGeek: Well it is a smooth drink, but you are right I would downgrade to about the Smirnoff or Absolute level. Any cheaper and it starts tasting funky.

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wundersmack

@sonneillon: Ha! ha! you crazy kids, and your talk of \"taste.\" Red Bull + anything has but one purpose, total shit-facedness.

I'll be over here drooling on the floor if you need me.

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nakkypoo

I'm going to rush out and buy a case of Four before it's pulled. I'd hate to have to start mixing my vodka and Redbull myself.

2 replies

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89macrunner

@nakkypoo: I got 5 free cases of that last year...i still have a case of it left. I cant give that stuff away. it tastes like cough medicine.

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h3llc4t, breaker of office dress codes

@nakkypoo: I usually hate energy drinks with booze in them, but Four is the tastiest of the group. Kind of like a decrepit fruit punch.

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2 replies

Jägerbombs, Jägerbombs, Jägerbombs.

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LJKelley

The FDA is USELESS. They worry about what they shouldn't and don't worry about what they should. USELESS!

2 replies

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MikeM_inMD

@LJKelley: I disagree. In many (most?) cases the FDA is quite useful. But in this case, they are stretching their reach too far.

(Politically I am a Constitutionalist, but the FDA is one agency I would keep - mostly.)

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tsume

@LJKelley: I agree, this is BS. I am a regular consumer of FOUR and I find it outrageous that someone else is going to dictate what I can and can't drink just because of irrational fear.

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TouchMyMonkey

I defy anyone to tell me that Bacardi 151 rum is GRAS. You might as well be drinking unleaded gasoline.

5 replies

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nybiker

@HurtsSoGood: It may not be GRAS (let's face it, there's a label on the bottle that screams FLAMMABLE), but in a few weeks I will be making my annual batch of rum balls. I use the 151. I grew up with my mom making it with the regular 80 proof. Then my brother discovered the 151 and holiday treats got so much better.

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Aquasol

@HurtsSoGood: Time to start going for Thunderbird. D:

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Whyspir

@HurtsSoGood:

151 isn't strong enough, go straight to the Everclear! (We sell them in 750ml now too!)

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XTC46

@HurtsSoGood: 151 and pepsi was my drink of choice in high school. me and 2-3 friends would get 1 bottle of 151, and 1 liter of pepsi/coke a piece, drink about 1/4 of 1/5 of the coke and refill with 151, and we would be happy for the next few hours.

I wish my tolerance was that low now =(

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2 replies

I would have thought someone named \"HurtsSoGood\" would be a fan of 151. ;-p

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ReverendBrown

No.

Just no.

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2 replies

Wait, wait ... ignoring the \"safe\" part...
the FDA wants someone to prove it's legal in order to declare it legal?

Am I missing something here?

3 replies

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Megalomania

@2 replies by: People are by default innocent; somehow, we just didn't see fit to afford the same protection to inanimate objects for sale

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TheSkaAssassin - College Man

@2 replies by: same concept as proving your innocent to be declared innocent.

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David in Brasil

@TheSkaAssassin is no longer unemployed: Except that, at least in the US (and outside of IRS cases), one does not prove his innocence - the government has to prove that one is guilty.

I'd think that the same standard would apply with the FDA. They should prove that a good is dangerous before declaring it so.

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Veeber

@David in Brasil: Um what? So, the manufacturer of a new drug should be able to simply sell it until someone dies? Drugs by far should have be not safe by default.

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Corydon

God...it's stupid crap like this that will keep the damn tea partiers in business for the next 20 years.

1 replies

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MooseOfReason

@Al Swearengen: That's right! They're actually alcoholated caffeine drinks.

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AngryK9

Politics and bureaucracy. It's what America was founded on.

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perfectoon_0901

What I want to know is things like Kahlua and other coffee based alcohol, are we going to see them go away? cause if that is the case, then the Dude is going to be PISSED

3 replies

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PsiCop

@perfectoon_0901: As far as I can tell this is about caffeine as an additive ... i.e. an ingredient included in the product which wasn't there before. Caffeine is naturally in coffee and coffee-derived products like Kahlua, so I don't think this would apply.

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Kuchen

@perfectoon_0901: Kahlua actually contains very little caffeine (<5 mg per 1.5 ounce serving, compared to 35-60-ish per soda serving, and around 100 per coffee serving). And this should only affect drinks to which caffeine is ADDED. The caffeine in Kahlua has not been added.

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Kuchen

@perfectoon_0901: And the Dude would find a way to make his White Russian.

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SaraFimm

Jolt Cola and Bacardi 151.

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celeb8

Yeah I'm a big fan of coffee and Bailey's and Maker's for exactly the reason they say it's a health risk, basically I can get lit up without getting groggy (and the taste of course is just YUM!). To say that these beverages are somehow illegal really annoys me. The government should never be a prohibit-unless-we-say-otherwise entity, the whole point of our justice system is that it should work the other way around, only prohibiting things that are absolutely necessary to prohibit.

This sounds more like a bunch of asses holding out their hands for brib... \"lobbying\"

2 replies

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thompson

@celeb8: No one said it was illegal. The FDA is merely requesting that the companies specify which decision they relied on (aka their reasoning) when choosing to add the ingredient.

Oh, and as for the \"never be a prohibit-unless-we-say-otherwise\", I have some new Xanlytria 500mg pills that will, I kid you not, cure you of all your ills... and may also cause your face to melt off (oops!). The FDA doesn't have to authorize it though, because we're not a prohibit-unless-we-say-otherwise system.

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thompson

@thompson: Hmm, well that looked a lot better when I typed it in the box... you get my drift though ;)

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wundersmack

Actually, the caffeine in Tilt and Sparks is really the least of our worries. Some varieties of these beverages have 8% alcohol -- which is why I buy them. More bang for the buck.

3 replies

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nakkypoo

@wundersmack: 8%? Four is 12%, which is why I buy that, plus at ~$2.50 for 24oz, you can't go wrong for getting drunk on the cheap.

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Covertghost

@nakkypoo: That stuff tastes like kool-aid mixed with beer.

It'll give you gut rot though <_<.

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varro

@nakkypoo: Four is as strong as wine, which means a 24 oz. can is equivalent to almost 5 glasses of wine.

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Al Swearengen

Who's to say they aren't adding alcohol to caffeine drinks rather than adding caffeine to alcohol drinks?

1 replies

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mianne

@Al Swearengen: Ah-ha! That must explain the reasoning behind the Cease & Desist order Monster Energy recently sent to the maker of the \"Vermonster\" wine.

\"It'll pick you up, it'll cool you down, it'll make you mellow & smile like a clown!\" -- Monster Hard Energy*

*Please note this as prior art, invalidating any patent, service mark, or trademark the Hansen Beverage company may attempt to establish using this slogan or name. Ditto (only double) for the Monster Cable company.

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gollerpr

These companies aim these products at teenagers and college age adults. It's rather predatory, and they should be beat down for doing it. Most mixed drinks rarely use the full can of soda to \"caffeinate\" a drink. And most drinks that use Coke or such have even less per 12 oz anyway. Most of these beers have as much as a can of Mountain Dew. It is proven that people drinking this stuff feel less drunk, but are indeed as intoxicated or more so. That means you're going to see more people who think the feel \"fine\" out on the roads driving under the influence.

I wish these guys and the tobacco companies would die a painful slow death... between this stuff, and the new tobacco product that is a dissolving strip, packaged in a cell phone shaped container they need to hurt for targeting teens...

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steads

I don't \"miss\" sparks - the distributors around here still get new stock in on a regular basis. A new case or two gets delivered to every gas station each week and my favorite distributor gets multiple cases each week.

If they stopped making it, they must have had a huge stockpile!

2 replies

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xredgambit

@steads: I was wondering this as well. I still see sparks at gas stations where I'm at.

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azsumrg1rl

@xredgambit: Technically, MillerCoors has until Jan. 10, 2010 to discontinue Sparks: [albany.bizjournals.com]

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Sneeje

Are you all really missing the point or just being snarky? I can't believe no one understands the difference between the FDA regulating a company selling a product that may have deleterious side effects versus someone making their own.

Perhaps the FDA should just give up and let companies create drinks with alcohol and cocaine in them? Or how about vodka and H2SO4? I mean, why try, it's just another dumb pointless government agency.

2 replies

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Jeff_McAwes0me

@Sneeje: Well, since cocaine and sulfuric acid are already considered dangerous and illegal substances, your reductio ad absurdum is not exactly valid. Good try though.

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Sneeje

@Jeff_McAwes0me: Ok, except that caffeine is also considered by the FDA to be acceptable in only certain quantities and combined with certain other substances. So... good try yourself.

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vastrightwing

Translation: You have 30 days to pay us not to regulate you to death. Fixed it for you.

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RandomZero

My problem with the arguments about how unsafe caffeine and alcohol are together: It isn't the drink's fault. It's user error.

I've debated this very subject with a MADD representative, and read every article she could dig up on the subject. I have yet to see a single argument other than \"You might not feel as drunk!\". Okay, sure. But a responsible drinker shouldn't be depending on their impaired and subjective state of mind to make this call. I, for one, eithre plan not to drive if I know I'll probably be drinking, or keep track of the number and strength of my drinks. (If I can't keep track of the numbers, or can't do the math, I'm too drunk to be within sight of my car.)

Rather than wasting resources on this, perhaps we should be aiming them at stopping the idiocy of \"I don't feel drunk!\" in the first place?

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RonDiaz

Who needs Sparks when you can get FOUR LOCO! The problem is these companies got out of control. Sparks is mild vs FOUR LOCO.

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mthorn82

I don't think the FDA is trying to stop them from what there doing, there just honestly trying to figure out how much caffeine there putting in these drinks, health wise I doubt there is anything wrong with mixing caffeine and alcohol but the amount of mg they add to these drinks even has me wondering.

I managed to try last week this new variant called Four or whatnot and after drinking half of a 24oz can I could feel my heart racing and that's on top of the high % alcohol they use in it. I went to research the mg of caffeine in the drink only to find nothing since its not FDA regulated.

So am I against them checking into this? no, let em see what happens and in the end I highly doubt there is anything bad about mixing them they just want some limit on the caffeine amount imo.

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StarVapor

The big loophole in the consumption of caffeine and alcohol has already been overcome in the 20's something drinkers by doing Red Bull and vodka shots.

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PsiCop

Pedantry: Should't the tag on this article be \"Government,\" not \"Govenment\"?

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zacwax

I also like the rum and coke argument.

But I think the FDA is more concerned with people \"ODing\" on energy drinks infused with alcohol.

But then again, people can get redbull and vodka's all the time.

I bet this will all lead to an attempted ban on energy drinks

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pahncrd

I take offense to the advertisement's attack on marriage.
Being married is the best thing in the world if you are with the right person. Being married is the worst thing in the world if you are with the wrong person.

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Covertghost

How about the mixture of Alcohol and the human stomach FDA?

Seems pretty dangerous to me...

November 18, 2009 4:53 PM

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DragonThermo

OMG! Now the gov't is trying to take away my Vodka & Red Bull! Next they'll say that adding fruit to alcohol is not GRAS and take away my Cosmopolitan and my Bud Light w/ Lime!

So, we can have caffeinated beverages (soda, coffee, Red Bull) and we can have alcoholic beverages (mmm..beeer!) but we can't put caffeine in our alcohol? I don't get it. It's not like we're mixing chlorine and baking soda. There's no chemical reaction when you add caffeine to alcohol.. other than a good time and embarrassing photos on Facebook.

We can put peanut butter in our chocolate but not caffeine in our alcohol? This is another example of the oppression of the people by the Imperial Federal Gov't!