@kexline: clearing ears cn be done through nursing young children or giveing older ones a pacifier. Also helpful are snacks to make them chew and the pre-indoctrinated game that makes them open thier eustachin(sp?) tubes. Stuff like who can open thier mouth wider or who can shew fastest are great games for flying tykes. As for the crowds, toddlers (I've found) are very social and much more resiliant than most people give them credit for.

I have a 15 month old. We fly. There is no problem. One child can be handled properly by one (or two) parents. Planning is involved - this excludes over half of the population. Plan flights around naptimes and engage in activities that will help the tyke nap. Bring toys (the attendants will let you have them out if it keeps the kid quiet.) As for the cabin pressure working on the ears, someone said that there is nothing you can do. When he was younger, on takeoff and landing my wife just nursed him. This kept his jaws working and balanced out the pressure similarly to chewing gum. Now we give him something to eat or play funny-face games with him to get hime to balance out the pressure. He is not always an angel to be around in a plane, but we have had an order of magnitude more compliments than complaints. When people see that you are trying your best to quiet the kid, they cut you some slack... especially if it is working!

I'd say for most 2 year olds, no way, no how. Maybe some three year olds, if they're generally inclined to be the kind of kid who is tolerant of new situations.

But it depends on so many factors...how long is the flight, how many connections, what time of day, how noisy the flight is otherwise, how cramped are the seats, etc.

A lot of what affects the kid is the emotional state of the parents, so if people are being asshats towards the parents and putting them on the defensive from the start, that increases their stress level and kids pick up on that and react accordingly.

As for ear-clearing, the pinch-and-blow method doesn't even work for me. Little does, most of the time. I have a jaw problem that puts pressure on my ears and I walk around half-deaf all the time as a result, but even before that problem came up, I've always had trouble clearing my ears. Some people have it easier than others.

So while you can teach it, it doesn't mean it'll work anyway, even if the kid learns it. And most kindergarteners are still having trouble at nose-blowing, so I wouldn't expect a toddler or preschooler to be able to get it and do it effectively.

Having the attitude of being able to defuse kids is a good start, because it means you probably approach them from a positive mindset. I know that when I didn't have kids and travelled, I found that I could make a parent's life so much easier just by smiling and mugging at their little kids. An adult willing to play a bit of peek a boo from the seat in front can do WONDERS.

BTW I'm not sure you can teach much at a food court other than food consumption...it can be sensory overload there while an airplane can be boring. Again, different kids react in different ways to different situations.

I bought my kid a vintage Fisher Price Little People plane before our Oz trip. She loved it and played with it (do not, I repeat, DO NOT fly her airline unless you like being flown upside down and shaken!), but it totally didn't translate into the real-world experience. Couldn't stick her head out the window like the Little People can, for one...

2) 10 Minutes could mean a missed connecting flight

3) 5 Minutes can easily mean a flight misses it's window. I have been on a flight that missed it's window because of another passenger and been stuck on the tarmac for 2 hours, unable to offload because all the gates were full. This 2 hours then meant the flight was 2 hours late for the following 6 flights thus meaning a potential 1400 (7 x 200) people being delayed by 2 hours, missed connections etc. The person was booed.

4) A flight window lost can result in the airline company being fined and charged huge amounts of money - in the tens of thousands.

5) Flight windows are tight, a plane over heavy used airspace needs to firstly be authorised by the local airspace for a window, then all other airspaces that they traverse though. So, miss the planned window, all following airspace windows need to be recalculated and scheduled. This could mean slightly different routes, which in turn cost money for more petrol. Some of the big planes cost $5000 in petrol to do a full circle just waiting to land. I have been on 14 hour flights that has not been able to depart because airspace on the other side of the world has been full!

The airline did right, I only wish they do it more often, not necessarily for youngsters but anyone that causes delays.

She is part of what I call GENERATION STUPID!

The kids should be allowed back on the plane only before the flight time and they have calmed downed or take the next flight.

The airline should give them a seat on the next available flight, but not a refund because it was not a fault on both side.

If cupajo doesn't have that right, then neither do you, and so when Cupajo objects to your (or anyone else's) obnoxious children, you need to sit down and shut up about it, because you have absolutely no right to tell cupajo how to behave.

Oh, and you also don't have the right to tell a passenger to stop screaming in your ear in retaliation for having to listen to your (or anyone else's) squalling little monsters for the whole flight.

But something tells me that, since you've been railing on cupajo without,by your own reasoning, any right or justification to do so, you'll also object if someone disturbs YOUR tranquility.

Which leads us to the only possible conclusion - that being, you are typical of parents (whether you are one or not) who have no regard for anyone's "rights" but their own, and who object loudly and vociferously when others do things that they don't like, but who feel no reticence to trample all over the rights, wishes, and tranquility of others.

Thanks for making that clear to us.

amen, why should all the other passengers, who paid for their ticket, have to put up with her bratty kids?@hunter3742:

Do you think it's possible to prepare a 2-3 year old for a flight to any degree? Can you go to a food court at noon a few times to acclimate them to noise and crowds? In particular, I'm wondering about teaching them to clear their ears. You can't practice unless you've got mountains nearby, but could you drill the pinch-your-nose-and-blow method for a few weeks prior to the flight?

I'm childless and pretty damned good at defusing small kids who know and trust me. But I don't have any experience with preparing for a situation, and I don't know how much you can realistically do.

@Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.: That was my thought too! Since she is on the news and all, it's not an elaborate ruse, but it could have been.

X-raying luggage isn't foolproof, and since you mentioned El Al - one of the reasons they are so secure is a lot of security redundancy. Even if some bag has passed screening, if it's on a plane without it's passenger, major alarm bells are going off. They shouldn't be trusting technology to keep things safe; there need to be some common-sense backups.

@H3ion: "Unless the child is somehow a flight hazard, I think the mother ought to be given (a) time and (b) assistance from the flight attendants in calming the children down. ...From the video, it sounds like the mother received zero help from the airline which is pretty typical of airlines these days but still not right."

Are we certain the mother would have accepted assistance from the flight attendants? There's a whole culture of "I'll manage my children the way I see fit, so back off" out there among American parents, so I could see even a well-meaning flight attendant being told to get lost in a situation like this.

@kateblack: "I wish the news story had mentioned how long this went on and whether or not the cabin crew did anything to help calm the situation before putting them off the plane.

"Without that kind of info, no one can form a valid opinion on this -- they'd just be projecting bias from previous known cases."

Thank you, I was wondering the same thing myself.

@ktjamm: "So this is what I'm hearing - Those of us with young children should break from society and live in a cave while our young mature."

I think it's less that, and more "Those of us with young children should understand that once children enter our lives, our lifestyles change dramatically and our ability to do some of the things we used to becomes dramatically limited because those things are not necessarily in the best interests of our children. It behooves as parents to recognize that children are still children, and stuff happens, which means we can't always control our kids. That means that for the sake of our children, we have to avoid situations full of loud noises, unfamiliar people, and lots of stress, since young children don't have the restraints adults do, and are likely to react to that stress by crying or acting out."

In case people don't realize this...interfering with a flight crew is a federal offense...it's not some small local misdemeanor.

The rest of the passengers shouldn't have to take care of this box wine bitch's two latchkey kids because she can't. +1 for the flight crew.

@gtrgod01: Let's leave personal insults out of this. Thanks.

As for the commenters here who appear to think that they are entitled to a completely child-free existence: Isn't that unrealistic, to say the least? We were all kids once. Would you demand a world free of old people? Or ... ahem, people who are not of your race or ethnicity? Unreasonable, no? We were all kids once. If you grew up into an adult who is not a huge "kid person," then hey, fine. Don't have any, and don't choose a job where you have to work with them. But don't expect that you can move through life with no kids ever even coming into your line of sight. Ridiculous.

Tranquilizer Gun.

@harrier666:

THANK YOU for making all of my points.

I'm going to assume the mother suddenly became a *PARAGON* of airline safety when she sued?

@boxjockey68:

Better that they let her stay on the plane so she can watch as her kid gets slammed into the floor of the cabin repeatedly during some turbulence, when he "didn't want to sit still."

I keep saying it, but it never gets any less true:

Life teaches lessons that parents don't.

@gtrgod01:

When you have a dozen *direct* cousins and an extended family that stretches over an *ENORMOUS* number of people, I'm not sure why you would ever need parenting experience. I got all the parenting experience I ever want while watching relatives' kids.

@Orv:

"Chat" is mildly putting it. You'd be arrested. Probably be out on bond in a few hours, but they *really* don't screw around with airplanes anymore.

@TechnoDestructo:

Worked on me.

@Sudonum:

They didn't get "upcharged" for the new flight. The flight they were kicked off of was $400, the next available flight was $900. They could wait for another $400 flight.

@pecan 3.14159265:

According to the Federal Aviation Administration, the rule of the United States of America is that the captain can do pretty much whatever they feel like so long as you are aboard their aircraft and it doesn't endanger you.

And yes, while we're talking about travel restrictions, cruise ship captains can imprison you for any and all reasons until you reach port.

Maybe that's the solution! Every aircraft needs a brig!

@kaceetheconsumer:

I mostly agree with your first positions, but...

@kaceetheconsumer:

Actually, you CAN have a "No Children" sign. Children are not a protected class. "Chinese Children" are.

@kaceetheconsumer:

Students are not a protected class. "Muslim Students" are.

@kaceetheconsumer:

The noise from jet turbines (once the aircraft has achieved cruising altitude) is sustained white-noise, and an *adequately* shielded cabin is actually rather quiet, even seated next to the engine. White noise puts most people to sleep, so that's actually the best place to be on the plane if you want some rest.

Crying human children, however, will wake up any *normal* (sane, rational) human. I'm woken up by neighbors' screaming kids even through walls. We're genetically predisposed to checking up on our young for some reason......

@pecan 3.14159265:

And when that kid is snatched up by a pedophile or run over by a car, you know why.

Life teaches the lessons that parents don't. Some of them only get taught once.

@pecan 3.14159265:

Next time, they should just start heading to the taxiway and let the kid crack his skull open on the floor. I see no reason for a kid out of his seat to hold up the plane.

I'm (mostly!) joking. But at some point, someone, be it the mother, the tractor-trailer coming down the road, or the lawnmower blade is going to teach the kid a lesson in self-control.

I sincerely hope the mother teaches that lesson first.

@Xerloq, we are all made of stars.:

Uh... the point of alcoholism is supposed to be that you *CAN'T* control whether or not you take a drink.

If you argue that kids shouldn't be held accountable for their actions, then you should also argue that psychotics and sociopaths aren't responsible for their actions.

Serial killers don't need to go to jail, they just need some pizza and a few minutes in the ball pit.

"Kids can't control themselves" is the excuse that allowed the kids here in GA to go free after they hog-tied a puppy, spray-painted it, and baked it in an oven.

@Itsatrap:

Err... if a plane isn't ready to go the SECOND that tower clears the flight, a different flight may be given clearance. Additionally, you can't just "step outside," they would need to re-dock with the terminal.

They don't tell you that *NO ONE* is allowed to board/disembark just because they can.

Ejecting someone from the aircraft is always considered a last resort, due to the delays imposed on the flight.

@tonalanswer:

Air travel is about COMFORTABLE travel due to the SHORTER time periods necessary. Comfort used to be the first word in air travel before people destroyed it by wanting to pay pennies per mile.

@GearheadGeek:

Uh, yeah, you don't have to worry about CPS unless you *BEAT* your children, as in "hard enough to leave bruises".

A whipping does not involve beating your child senseless. And it doesn't have to be in poublic, ever. My parents never whipped me in public, they whipped me when we got home. I guarantee you that waiting until you get home will stop it - *knowing* you're going to get it is far worse than getting it.

The only semi-exception is when children are too young to draw the connections between "What happened an hour ago" and "I'm being punished now," but your kids shouldn't be taken on an airplane if they aren't old enough to handle causality.

Then again, if you aren't worried about them making the connection between "listen to mommy and breathe through the mask" and "I'll die," be my guest.

@pecan 3.14159265:

Excepting that then they're assuming liability for the welfare of the child.

And they're inviting abuse by The "TSA STOLE MUH BAYBEE" Lady.

@flugennock:

I notice that all of these stories involve interviewing the parents, and none of them involve interviewing passengers who just arrived on an inbound flight with children.

@floraposte:

Excepting that most "policies" are explicit or implied agreements undertaken when you choose to purchase a product and/or service.

And people attempt to bully their way out of them constantly. 99% of retail stores have a 30-day return policy, but there's always some jackass in line who wants to argue that they should take back his 6-month old toaster.

Usually after he's done something idiotic, like drive over it.

Apparently all the 20-somethings on here were born adults and despise anything younger than themselves...

@RayonFog:

The business-owner has a right to shut them up, however, and they will do so. Bars will eject noisome patrons, and theaters will eject those who can't control their voices.

The airline trumps these. The airline has a *DIRE* right and a *DIRE* need to eject *ANYONE* being unruly, no matter their age. 9 or 99, someone being obnoxious in a tiny aircraft cabin is likely to risk the lives of everyone on board that plane in an emergency. If a child can't properly follow their parents' instructions when the plane is on the ground, how do we know they're going to follow them in an emergency?

Trust me, girls / ladies with looks like that get out of speeding tickets, get admitted into nightclubs ahead of the line, get promotions at work, etc...

In a moment of need she could have easily turned on the charm and turn the whole situation around. I am surprised that the male dominated world of airlines did not cut her a break on looks alone. She herself must have been acting badly. If she was genuinely trying to help quiet down her kids almost everybody would understand and even help her.

There is something about how good looking people get away with stuff and how good looking people get sympathy, extra help, and positive reactions that regular people do not get.

@puddinhead:

Yes, you should turn to the childless for advice. Why? Because we can see the little brats as little brats and the angels as angels. We can objectively tell you what appears to work and what doesn't.

To a parent, their kid is always a "little angel" except for "the occasional slip."

@SkuldChan:

THIS.

I have an aunt with kids and an uncle with kids. The aunt's kids are polite and well-behaved, while the uncle's kids are whining brats.

Now, both of them were raised by the same parents (obviously), and both of them are equally accomplished, have the same social outlook, etc. Which means the other parent in each case, naturally, has an effect.

On the one side, we have a husband who stands in unison with the wife whenever there's a problem. On the other, we have a wife who immediately takes the opposing position.

Hrm....

@mm16424:

Best food I've ever had in a restaurant was at a small place where the owner/chef didn't allow children...

When I was a kid.

Why'd he let me eat there when he would throw out others? Because I sat there, behaved myself, ate what I ordered, and paid attention to what I was ordering so that I knew I'd eat it.

There's nothing quite as irritating in a restaurant as seeing a family with monstrous little children who run around, complain about the food, refuse to eat anything, demand special service (off-menu items), etc.

Reminds me of that Cosby Show episode where Cliff took the kids to a fine-dining restaurant for burgers. Excepting that where the show had him graciously thanking the server for help trying to please the children and bowing out when it was obvious it wouldn't work, reality usually has some entitled brats who whine about not getting what they want even after the server has tried as hard as they can to please.

That's usually when I start feeling a little bad for their children. At least, I feel bad until one of them runs in front of me when I stand up to go to the restroom and cries when I trip over them like a yappy dog in the kitchen.

*snicker*

@cromartie:

I understand completely. If I had an option, I would have enjoyed taking it. Would you rather smell crap and have a baby scream for the entire flight, or smell lots of crap for five minutes and have the baby shut up?

It should be noted the flight attendants were zero help, I could not do the dirty work in the galley, they would not take the barf bag when I was done (puke is ok, but not baby shit?).

Short of this anecdote, my kids know how to behave on car trips, airplane rides, restaurants and in profesionals' offices. I don't know why it is so hard for some parents to train their kids, I think half the time the parents are failures, the other half the kids are simply not suitable for public exposure, regardless of parenting skills.

@winstonthorne: Absolutely. There's a huge difference between a kid who gets a little whiny, and a kid who won't stay in the seat. If an adult refuses to stay in their seat, they get arrested. Violently. This was the appropriate solution.

Blame the parents, they're bad. If your kids act a fool, you get what you get.

I brought you into this world, I can remove you from it.

An angry stranger can be a lot more effective than an exasperated parent in those situations.

What noone has brought up, at AGE 5 a child can fly alone (or they used to be able to I am not up on the current rules). Many many have, did with no problem several times a year. My children flew at ages 6 months, 18 months, and every year thereafter on a 4 hour flight across country to see grandparents with a change of plane. Likewise my grandchildren flew at age 6 months, 8 months, 2, etc. NEVER did they disrupt the other passengers. As I said before, they knew by age 18 months what was expected and acted accordingly. Prior to that pacifier, cookies, etc. worked.

It is hard to say who was aT fault, if the kids were really causing a disturbance it was definetely OK to ask them to leave, If the attendant had asked if any juice or snacks would help, that may have calmed them down or they may have just been spoilt little children who had not been taught behavior skills.

That being said, I think after taking them of the plane, they should have taken off the luggage, if I had thought that was part of the new safety requirements. They also should have given them their money back so the could have booked and possibly get thrown off another airline.

If you have a hyper child, and sometimes is is not the parents fault as the child may have medical problems, you should visit your doctor who would probably recommend a small dose of benedryl which they often give to children who when admitted to hospital cannot calm down enough to treat.

There is no requirement to stay in your seat while passengers are boarding and a 2 year old is probably going to cry during the flight at some point.

Srry, cldn't rsst.

To this day, I don't know how the hell they were allowed on the flight, as they were already obviously, visibly, audibly smashed to the gills when they were boarding. Hell, I remember them causing a ruckus in the goddamn' departure lounge before we even go on the frickin' plane. Oh, how I wanted to throw them off the plane -- in midair, en route. Luckily, they staggered off at DFW, and we were able to catch up on some sleep on the DFW to DCA (home) leg.

If you're in an "adult" restaurant and someone's brats start raising hell, you can always ask to be moved to another table or, upon entering the restaurant and seeing that you're about to be seated near a family, ask to be seated away from them (as I do).

However, if you're on frickin' plane... man, you're stuck there for as long as it takes to get where you're going -- often several hours, at least -- so, suddenly, all those little annoyances seem magnified: the guy in the aisle seat across from you watching a DVD on his laptop with no headphones, the teenaged girl who has her iPod turned up so high that you can hear the music bleeding out of her earbuds, the drunken gaggle of Texans we had on a flight home from Vallarta one year -- or the four-year-olds who won't quit raising hell.

Back in the old days, they used to offer seats in a smoking section or in non-smoking; why the hell can't they offer "family" or "child-free" seats?

I get tired of hearing it's policy or it's not policy as an excuse, it's like saying "because we just don't want to", and it's thievery. Doesn't the law apply here? If I was to take somebody's money and give them nothing in return I would be locked up for robbery, but this company gets to just decide they want to keep the woman's money. That's bullshit. That woman paid for services and she didn't get those services, so her money should be refunded. Also, I doubt they would have offered her another flight if she hadn't made a stink.

Another flight is useless, it was her birthday and they ruined it because they don't remember being children -- and I wouldn't want to use their airline again if I was her.

@craptastico: So what if kids act up? It's not everyone else's job to put up with that on a cramped plane. If she can't control her kids, then they should kick her off. The zillion other passengers who also paid for their flights have the right to a pleasant flight.

I am glad they kicked her off. I wish they would have kicked the asshole kid off our flight to Puerto Rico who was kicking the back of my seat and being a PITA.

(Of course, not procreating is also a large part of the reason I can afford to fly first class.)

Can't control your kids? Don't fly. And certainly don't blame the airline or others because you suck as a parent.

Seeing her in the clip she is clearly an unfit whiney little professional victim. The grandmother should let her have it for disgracing the family on television and the woman hosting her should charge her rent for the bday party. If I lived there I would reward the airline with my business and complain to the tv station about not interviewing other passengers to get their side of it.

It's clear to me that most posters are not familiar with Allegiant Air. While there is certainly not enough info to know which party was right or wrong, Allegiant is not your average airline.

They fly between smaller airports and from small airports to select "destinations". All their flights are non-stop. They do not overbook and offer all their services ala carte. Nothing is free, not even soft drinks. They even charge a fee to pick a seat. In exchange for all this, the airfare itself is dirt cheap.

One "extra" they offer is flight insurance (flex flight) to protect customers from missed flights, etc. That fee is something like $7 for a round trip or $21 for Mom and two kids. If Mom bought that insurance, a credit toward a future flight is all she is entitled to. If Mom gets a full refund, she's just driving up airfares for the rest of us taking advantage of this tight margin business model.

I know about Allegiant because they offer twice weekly flights (Friday and Monday) between the puddle-jumper airport near me and Orlando FL. I'm preparing to take my first flight with them in a couple of weeks: $94 round trip including taxes and airport fees.

I appreciate all the parents who do control their kids, enforce behaviors, and keep them out of places where their presence is inappropriate. And I'm appalled at the ones who let their kids run wild through restaurants and public places making no effective effort to correct them. If you have ever worked in a retail environment, you are already painfully aware of the many parents who do nothing to stop a child from damaging property, endangering themselves and disrupting other customers. It happens all the time. And yes, if those bad parents and their hellions want to act out on my flight, kudos to the captain for putting them out.

...and c'mon....just say it one time...."marsha marsha marsha!!"

Oh and thanks for the spelling correction....it's always nice to have a child correct such a thing, shows they are actually learning something at day care :)

I think it's safe to say that if you did have children, they would indeed be self-righteous (that's how you spell that, by the way) little assholes. It has something to do with where the apple falls in relation to the tree.

....why don't you go get some sleep, since that seems to be so important to you.

You, again, think you have the "right" to dictate what proper behavior of those around you should be and in the process think you are in the majority opinion. News flash jackass, a lot of times when they interview people, who happened to be sitting right next to said "problems", all say the same thing..."the flight attendant didn't even give the person a chance, they just kicked them off".

I don't have kids in case you can't read. I don't because i don't want to bring some self-reightious asshole like you into this world who thinks the idea of "think of other people" only means other people should do that and not themselves.

...also if you've had so many problems sleeping on a plane before your precious 8am meeting in chicago, why don't you think ahead and get a room the night before. Oh wait, that would be too much like what you expect from other people, I forgot everyone else is only supposed to think of you.

...society should vote you off the island, it's very apparent you're only here for yourself and your precious sleep to your chicago 8am meeting.

...and marsha got all the attention because she wasn't an ass...go get some therapy.

Control your kids, people! Have a little consideration for others around you. I don't care about your excuses either, the world does not center around nor should be expected to cater to you and your spawn.

I find many parents use the very nature of kids as an excuse for why they do all kinds of crap from screaming/pouting in stores, to running around tables in restaurants, to pulling merchandise off shelves/racks in stores, eating unpaid-for food in the grocery store, etc. This is B.S. My mom woulda given me a spanking of the Ages if I pulled half the crap kids do nowadays.

And my wife and I made the conscious choice to not have children as we both come from big families and have plenty of nieces and nephews. News flash, jackass. There's too many idiots (like yourself) in the world who want to pop out a baby because they want a little version of themselves to dress up in cute outfits and take take some photos for a Christmas card. That's the real ego-stroking.
All this while millions of kids wait to be adopted. Kate+8 or Octomom, anyone?
But then, these same fucking selfish morons realize that they don't know how to raise children to be responsible and decent members of society because their parents didn't tell them how to be responsible and decent members of society. Their parents just parked them in front of a TV to watch Sesame Street while the chatted on the phone with Mrs. Smith down the street. So these same fucking selfish ego-driven morons just park their kids in front of the XBox while they chat with Mrs. Jones on their cell phones and then later they all load up in the SUV and drive to the airport and tumble noisily onto the plane while the kids, who just changed their medications, screech and run up and down the aisle and their oblivious parents (now deadened to the sound of little Suzie's caterwauling) fiddle with a Sudoku on their Blazckberrys. And as a result, I can't sleep on my flight before my 8AM meeting in Chicago.

Here's the takeaway, for all parents. Control your fucking kids or society will do it for you. In this case, society had to control this woman's kids by kicking them all off the plane. Problem solved.

Maybe you watch a little too much reality tv....it's not an Island and you don't get to vote off who you deem undesirable. The fact of the matter is the only reason Flight attendants started kicking people off planes is because their jobs started to really suck after their management ran the airlines into the ground. Prior to the airlines having financial problems it was almost absolutely unheard of for someone who wasn't absolutely flat assed drunk to be taken off a plane. Ever notice how poor of service you get on just about any flight? Or how disgruntled practically any flight attendant is?

....on the subject of rational responses....you really expect that on a site like this? Childless "parents" telling real parents how to raise their children?

oh and also for the record...no one has the "right" to fly in peace and quiet. The airline only promises to get you from A to B...that's it. There is no such thing as your "rights" in this scenario, it's a made up fantasy you self-centered "all about me" types make up to justify your selfish moronic behavior and comments.

....and for the record i have no children. You don't have any because it would take away from your "me" time looking in the mirror stroking your ego.

This is so ironical it makes my hair stand on end. YOU seem to be the one who thinks YOUR rights (to fly with your obnoxious little hellspawn) trumps the rights of everyone else on the flight (you know, those of use who know how to use a condom)

Ah, the rationed and civil response of the shitty parent. That's an assumption, I admit. I *assume* you have kids based on your rude behavior to me and your personal attacks. As long as we're going to let this degenerate into personal attacks, try this one on for size. If you do in fact have kids, then it's quite obvious based on your behavior in this thread that you are very likely doing a lousy job raising them. YOU are what's wrong with this society and your children are (probably) ill-behaved little monsters who should be forcibly sterilized so they don't pass this lousy parenting on another generation.

Anyway its not actually about one person's migraine, or one parent or child's "right" to fly. Its about everyone's reasonable expectation to have a reasonably baseline okay experience out in the world. and if you and your child are the problem, then you and you child take care of it by either getting reasonably quiet, or leaving, so everyone, the guy with the migraine, the woman who is annoyed, the flight attendants can do their job with minimal onstruction, etc., etc.

Not caring is however not what I'm advocating for. Instead when its gets too much, or you have to make decision that affects the next few hours, like leaving a kid who will possibly be restless and loud for an entire flight, parents need to take their lumps and deal with the consequences.

PS the rights of the many trump the rights of the few in our society often. Everyone's right to a baseline experience is more important than the parent and child's right to subject everyone else to obnoxiousness. I'm not saying every little thing done warrants getting kicked off, but sometimes people (not just kids) are obnoxious enough to get kicked off whether they can control their behavior or not. You get no pass because you are a kid.

Sincerely,
A 20 something who thinks about everyone's rights and just their own familial unit's rights

an infant is 1 thing, a 2 year old a completely different age group. Even by age 2 I EXPECTED my kids to behave in public and they did (took a 2 & 3 yr old across country on bus alone with no problem). It is basically what the parents expect and enforce. All I had to do was ask if they had an ear problem and they discovered they could hear me and obey (an ear problem equaled a vigorous ear washing/rinsing because "obviously they had dirty ears and couldn't hear me". They got very very few ear washings.)@H3ion:

to finish.... quietly at home. As a grandmother who flew with grandchildren who did not misbehave because I had distractions (new toys, etdc.) and they understood what was expected of them and the consequences (whoops, forgot today's children don't have parental enforced consequences). Glad they were booted I certainly wouldn't have wanted to spend even 10 minutes with them. She should chalk it up to a lesson on controlling her disobedient kids & begin doing so at all times henceforth.

She knew she was going to fly. Why had she not prepared BOTH OF HER KIDS (a 2 year old is not 6 months old - they understand instructions) by "practicing" sitting q

t's mzng t m tht s mny n hr thnk THR rghts trmp ll thrs nd tht ppl frm dffrnt wlks f lf, cntrs, tc...hv t cnfrm t THS jrks d f wht s r s nt ccptbl bhvr n pln jst bcs H'S n t.

Hey you, riding in coach, yeah you without kids:

The lavatory on this plane has no changing table, my kid has soiled his pants and is screaming. You are damn right I am changing the diaper right here and now in this seat that I had to pay for. Do you think I am happy listenting to you bitch while I try and get a poop filled diaper in a barf bag?

Shut the f()|< up, while I do what I have to do. Fly first class next time a$$h0le.

I don't care if, as RedwoodFlyer says, they do pad the hell out of their layovers,it's irrelevant. Some people may have a connection on another airline or have other time constraints.

@RayonFog: The problem isn't that kids misbehave. Believe it or not, people understand that, they really do. The problem is that parents misbehave by completely failing to do any sort of damage control. I know I was a little terror as a child. I also know that I spent a lot of time at home after aborted family outings, and learned some self-control as a result.

As for the "kids are unpredictable" angle: Bullshit. Kids aren't perfectly predictable. Huge difference. You know how your kid generally reacts when well rested vs when tired, for example - my mother used that ruthlessly when I needed to travel a lot as a small child. I'd either be kept up to the point that I was asleep in 30 seconds, or woekn up JUST before the trip so I'd be well-rested and relatively docile, and goven a distracting activity.

@JilliefromChile: Since when is not flying until the child is old enough "living in a cave?"

@H3ion: How easy is it for the flight attendants to communicate to the passengers in the case of an emergency when there is a screaming baby drowning out the words of said flight attendant? If a grown man sitting next to you on the plane was screaming for 3 hours straight, would you tolerate it? The why or who isn't important.

And as many of you have guessed, I don't have children yet but I'm working on it. As someone who flies for a living, however, my kids won't be flying until they are old enough to chew gum at the earliest. That is out of courtesy for my fellow air passengers. If we really need to see a relative several states away, my diesel car gets great mileage.

@kateblack: And how good is her perception of time? I can't count the number of times people have told me they've been waiting 15 minutes or a half-hour, when I'm staring at time logs that show it was under two minutes.

Look, i've never once in any of my posts defended or slammed the airline for removing the family. That was a decision they made and that article doesn't give enough info to form an opinion on if they were correct in doing so. My posts are all aimed at the commentors who all seem to hate kids on planes (not just this article, any on this site that involves a child), regardless of what they are doing.

This site has a very "mob" mentality about anything that annoys them. A kid cries on a plane annoying one self-centered prick and by the end of the post the kid should of either been kicked off the plane with his (or her) parents shamed for life or the kid is drugged and strapped to the wings. You better watch out, you're a pilot. Been a lot of stories in the news lately about drunk pilots. By next week you might get slammed on here for being a drunk pilot...

I'll bet most that are kid hating on here have never even been on a plane with a truly "unruly" child....

We will not inconvenience the other passengers by taking a delay, making some misconnect or miss plans, because the safety regulations are being ignored. Read it again: the four year old would not remain seated. It isn't about the crying child. It is about the child that would not obey the flight crew and the mother that didn't have the authority over her child to make him obey.

Children have been injured severely on planes because their parents didn't enforce the regulations. If you or your child can not obey federal law, you have lost the right to fly on that aircraft. The flight crew has the final say as to the operation of that flight. We are held entirely responsible for anything that goes wrong, losing our careers and up to our lives if we fail to do so. We aren't going to mess around with passengers who don't take the rules seriously.

Again: This is not about a crying child. It is about a safety violation.

I am not saying the compensation should have been different, but would it have been any less of a press fiasco had the rest of the flight been delayed? Pull her and the kids off and figure out the rest after the passengers following the rules are on their way.

Pilots every move is watched by the media, often understandably. If I taxi with that little 4 year old tearing up and down the aisle and he takes a spill, guess what? All the people crying about letting the kid stay on would be the first commenting on an article about the irresponsibility of the pilots that kept taxiing with a kid out of his seat or otherwise acting disruptive.

The safety of that flight is my responsibility. I don't drink, I don't have a laptop up there, and I don't let anyone in the back risk the safety of the other passengers. If a pax can't follow simple rules before taxi, I can't count on them to not kill others in an emergency. I have had to kick off very few passengers; usually a good talking to does the trick. But if / when I have, it was with the safety of everyone else on board in mind. We don't kick people off just to get our giggles.

I have seen both sides of the coin. Parents with screaming kids, running down the aisles when the seatbelt sign is on and the flight is bumpy, while they listen to their ipod and ignore the kid. I have also had to personally escort a young boy leaving his mom for the first time, going to see his dad, scared half to death of flying. The captain of the earlier fight had kicked him off, this poor tiny boy all alone. He waited alone in the airport (with a gate agent assigned to him) as mom had already gone home and lived quite a distance. But when I got there, I gave him a hug, bought him a 5 dollar stuffed critter from the store, and sat with him until we had to close the cockpit door. He was all smiles when we landed.

Keep those brats quiet!!

Amen to that bro!!!

I, personally, would love to see flights with a "families with small children" section -- out on the frickin' wings.

I'm usually on the side of the airlines - I work at one - and I think giving her the boot was ok... however, a refund should have been given, so time for a chargeback.

I understand that children will act up and sometimes you just have to go somewhere with them. But if YOUR children act up, its on you to bear the cost, not the airline. Empty seats are expensive for an airline, they shouldn't bear the cost of your childrens behavior.

That said, this thread is rather full of uncompassionate, short-sighted people. You can't expect new parents and children to live in a cave until they emerge fully-formed butterflies, and there is an issue with pressure changes that I mentioned upthread.

2. There isn't enough information about how long the children were acting out, but it seems like the four year boy wouldn't stay in his seat and was running up and down the aisle. Absolutely a safety concern, and it was probably preventing take off.

The fact is that almost any two year old can be calmed. It may take some time but a mother's touch and a Binky can go a long way. Four years old? Maybe some talking to. By that age they have some understanding of what's acceptable and what is not.

From the video, it sounds like the mother received zero help from the airline which is pretty typical of airlines these days but still not right.

The nonsense about no refunds and only grudgingly giving a credit against a future flight (why on earth would she want to fly on this airline again, even if it was free?) spell lawsuit. If she files, I hope she wins big enough to get this airline to change its "policy."

a little nyquil will do wonders moms........

Sometimes it took some mental and physical gymnastics to assure proper conduct, not to mention obscene amounts of candy, but we got the job done. A 4 yr old can and should be expected to show enough respect for others and self control for the duration of a flight.

Even at 2 yrs old, ours respected the family travel law of no whining, and under no circumstances should any of their appendages ever make contact with the seat in front of them. I have seen enough freakishly permissive parenting to take a wild guess at what led to the ouster of this family.

Besides, she was offered credit. It's a non-issue, and I agree with the other comments here that say if you can't control your kids, you have no place on an airplane.

"Wouldn't stay in his seat" could mean he stood up to get a toy as the flight attendant walked by. That's a safety issue? Are you saying you're not allowed to move at all once seated?

Suppose it were an adult who sat in their seat, buckled in, then remembered their magazine in their carry-on in the overhead compartment. The plane is still boarding, but they stand up to get it just as the flight attendant walks by.

What would you say if the flight attendant had that adult kicked off the plane without a refund or an explanation other than they "wouldn't stay in their seat" and were a "safety issue" in this situation?

No one said that the four year-old causing a disturbance, or that he was in the way. No one said that he stood up to get a toy at the wrong time. Either way you're making an assumption with second hand information that reveals more your bias than your understanding of the situation.

@Radi0logy: Absolutely, take responsibility for your children, your pets, and yourself. I find it ridiculous, however, that adults excuse their bad behavior because someone else is behaving worse than they. That type of behavior is infantile.

These stories and comment threads almost always devolve into a "you control your kid, or I'm gonna lose it" type posts, the irony of which the commenters fail to see.

It's sad.

@gtrgod01: AMEN!
I would really love for some of the childless people (those who are so wonderfully insightful about parent's lack of discipline) to tell me how they would discipline a tantruming two year old and still retain complete control over a busy four year old?

You are on an airplane. You have nothing to entertain them with (or you can't access it), there's no place to put them in time out or otherwise segregate them, you have no priviledges to revoke... God only gave you two pair of hands and everyone in the entire plane is hemming and hawing and cursing you under their breath.

What do you do? I'm guessing most would opt for either strangulation, violent beatings, or drugging -- all of those things you would call child abuse otherwise. I'm guessing that because every time I read one of these "bad kid on an airplane" stories, a group of people who describe children as demon-spawn and complain about being subjected to them post their endless "parents should discipline their offspring better!" comments without ever offering even ONE suggestion on how to better discipline a child on an airplane.

I don't take my son on planes, he's too young to deal with it and with his disability the experience would be too stressful...BUT if we were moving across country, to another country, had an emergency family situation or funeral to attend to, or some other life altering event I would. I'd do my best to control him, and he'd probably cry -- because even though he's normally a great kid, he's not perfect. Then all the childless Consumerist readers could come here to talk about what an awful parent I am.

I lay awake at night praying that I can be half the parent that childless people and childless people with pets are.

when I was a kid my mom threw all sorts of things at me to keep me in my seat during train rides, like books, sketchbooks to draw in, gameboys, walkmen, etc

Heh. All my mom every threw at me were dishes and shoes.

before you pay for a flight the policies and fine print will explain the practices, it is up to you to read it and if it is too complex or too much to read then take your business elsewhere.

What if I find your attitude "totally unacceptable"....maybe you should not comment here any more.....tell us, how do you feel now?

eg if you go to a public place that is suppose to offer peace and quiet and a kid who has the right to be there wont stop disrupting the place then they will be removed.

everyone has the right to am education but that doesn't change the fact that if your kid cant control them self, they will be thrown out of the class room.

most airline rules such as talking on phones have nothing to do with the equipment on the plane, it is to preserve the peace and quietness of the plane. if they allowed phones and everyone started talking on them because there isn't much else to do, the plane will soon begin to sound like a riot and everyone will be talking over each other, aka no peace and quiet.

@hunter3742: @hunter3742:

People need to recognize that with choosing to have kids, they also chose to accept the responsibility for their behavior. An airline is a private business that presumably has the interests of its customers at heart. If you, as a parent, fail to control your child, even if you do your damndest, a private business is fully within its right to ask you to leave. It's not like they were kicked off a public property, like a national park, that's supported by their tax money. If I owned a restaurant, I wouldn't think twice about showing people with unruly kids the door. Sure, I'd lose one customer, but the remaining people will remember and greatly appreciate your call. This is nothing to feel outraged or even surprised about. How many flights are there a day? I'm sure this type of thing happens more than once each and every single day. In a case like this you should feel lucky to get a refund.

Corrections on the second sentence: "The strap and buckle could be.... open them in emergencies and a..."

Sorry for that. It's two in the morning here and I forget all my English coursework at around 1 AM.

....sure...you should write a book.

....and remember, these same self-centered, 20-something childless people seem to know EVERYTHING about parenting and how you are doing such an incredibly bad job at it (at a moments glance or from an incomplete article) because you allowed your child on an airplane and he or she cried causing immeasurable suffering to all those around you!! Ye all be damned and removed immediately!!

It's okay for it to be all about you but not for someone else that has kids....oh that's right, i forgot, It's still all about you....

...oh and you are going to tell us that the 20-something, kid hating, don't annoy me types commenting on here don't expect special treatment? Haven't you heard? On consumerist everyone is special, their time is worth more than common folk that have kids and god forbid anything annoys them in anyway (not just kids, read the site on just about any topic).

....can't get any more self-centered then that comment. Keep going you little spoiled brat, you're proving my point.

Any possible coaxing or bribing or conditioning you may attempt can not control completely in all situations unless they are physically restrained.

Lesson learned: if you can't control your kids, they don't deserve the ability to fly or travel internationally. In fact, you should be penalized for even thinking you could make it. It's not about getting from one place to another in a shorter time, it's about comfort and silence...

Bravo!

I highly doubt that honestly. sort of trying to get the plane of the ground for an airline = telling everyone to hurry the fuck up and get on, only to wait there for 20 minutes while some VIP gets hurried to the gate. i've seen that happen a dozen+ times at least. the term hurry up and wait was never so valid as when applied to airline doublespeak.

There are no "rights" without responsibility, bunnymare, and the extent to which children can be responsible is the extent to which they have rights. The shortfall is the responsibility of the parent.

[www.allegiantair.com]

The pilot, and by extension the flight crew, is god. The pilot et al are responsible for the safety of the passengers yada yada yada.

Screw around, piss-off or what have you with the pilot (and his minions) is about the stupist thing you can do.

Sounds like Mommy and her spawn got under the skin of a flight attendant.

Life is a bytch. The pilot is god.

Sounds like the bad design of the seat you saw needs to be addressed, though, because that's a safety problem in and of itself.

Frankly, airlines do a piss-poor job of accommodating normal customers, let alone anyone who has any kind of special need. And the FAA is no help...the carseats they approve are frequently too wide for the airline seats. There's no good way to safely strap a kid into an airline seat and the FAA refuses to legislate one because of pressure from the airlines. The airlines want to fill those seats, after all, and they don't want families not flying because of extra cost and hassle.

But all they'd have to do is have the airlines stock five-point harnesses that can attach to the seats as needed and have some kind of safety gizmo for an emergency. I'm sure someone could come up with something that requires a certain amount of cleverness and hand strength to open, and at the point where you can open it, you bloody well ought to be able to behave yourself and if you can't, then it's fair enough to eject you just like an adult who is too drunk.

But that would all cost money and the airlines are all about cheap stuffing of human sardines into their cans...

The airlines have every right not to allow her to fly for whatever reason they want, but they don't have a right to keep the money!

If that were the case, airlines could kick half of the passengers off every flight, keep their money, and save a hell of a lot on fuel costs.

Outrageous, and the Mom is crazy if she doesn't take them to small claims court. She would win in a heartbeat, regardless of the ridiculous "policy" the airline is citing. Policy is not law.

But if they said any number of non-students could come in and only two students at a time, that's almost certainly discriminatory and they could probably be sued over it.

Remember, just because someone does something and doesn't get caught/prosecuted doesn't make it legal. There are undoubtedly places that do hang up "no black people" signs, although I suspect with harsher language. And they probably live in places where local cops support that kind of thing. Doesn't make it legal.

@gtrgod01: Or maybe you just think anyone who chooses not to have kids is pretty f-cking retarded, whatever the reason.

or, more likely, maybe you're just envious of those who have avoided having their lives curtailed by a pack of brats, as you apparently failed to do.

@ben: : ""Society should not be inconvenienced by your choice." Heh, you realize that without people choosing to have children, there would be no society, right?"

If that's the trade-off, then I'd be perfectly ok with having no society and no screaming little brats.

There's a certain air of moral superiority that some people get when they have kids. They suddenly expect all kinds of special treatment just because they're breeding.

The airline was within their rights to kick them off but That ticket was paid for to get them to their destination. The airline should live up to their end of the bargin and get em wehre they need to go.

And yes, I have two kids myself, ages 2 and 5. If I were to take them on a plane, I can guarantee you they'd be better behaved than half of the adults on the flight.

@Itsatrap: Thats what I was trying to get at, and according to the rules, if someone is kicked off the plane their luggage is supposed to go with them. I've been on many flights and probably wouldn't have even noticed if it took a few more minutes to depart.

If people would not be so quick to pass judgment and have a little understanding, it would go a long way to reducing the stress that we all suffer as a result of flying.

@admiral_stabbin: Amen. My siblings and I were by no means perfect, but - especially when we were in public - we snapped to when our parents told us something. We sat in restaurants and ate like normal people. We filed onto planes and sat down quietly. We didn't throw ourselves on the floor and have tantrums, or run through a restaurant shrieking and getting underfoot, or stand on the seat on the plane and scream until someone yelled at us. We were not angels. We were properly disciplined kids who had a healthy respect for authority and fear of consequences if we misbehaved.

Benadryl says otherwise.

@tonsilpool:

Line of reasoning fail.

@gtrgod01:

Don't forget smells. If the kid smells bad, kick those people out of society too.

Right, because many here would have you believe that your kids are not in fact human beings. Kids do not have any rights and are expected to operate under the childless' set of "rules" at all times.

@david.c:

You sir, win 5 interwebs!

@Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.:

Exactly. A crying baby, I can understand that to some extent, especially if mom has to wait until we take off to feed/change/whatever. But if the flight has to be delayed because of the 4 year old who is out of his seat and now a safety risk for both himself and others, that's over the line. I'm sorry, my time is indeed valuable. Should I sent the mother a bill for the amount of time it took to get little Hellion Jr. strapped back down?

All you people are really being overly dramatic with the "suffering" one has to go through when a child cries on a plane. If that's what you call "suffering" you must live a very sheltered life.

...wait...this is the consumerist, it's full of sheltered people who apparently never leave their keyboards to experience real life on a regular basis.

lol at "suffering".

@axiomatic:

You would lose. They violated the safety rules, period. The airline at that point has a responsibility to the rest of the passengers on board and their safety. They were removed from the flight.

Removal of privileges does work, you just have to be more creative than they are. Running off to a friend's house? Ground them. That's an easy one. And the application of physical force (carrying them kicking and screaming into their room) is different from physical punishment. Further, the backbone of what I said is not the removal of privileges anyway, but the positive reinforcement of good behavior.

You complain about society raising children on TV, giving in, having no backbone, etc., but that is not only a completely separate issue, but completely against what I actually said. It takes a more involved parent to positively reinforce their child for good behavior than it takes to punish poor behavior, and that is the real reason people don't want to do it. It's far easier and takes much less time to smack a kid for acting up than it is to reward a kid for behaving.

@Burning pakalolo not even noticing the weather:

What you fail to realize is that my "psycho-babble bullshit" is based off of decades of empirical research, case studies, longitudinal observational research, and nationwide surveys. There is far more evidence for positive reinforcement working than "well, this is how my parents did it, and I turned out okay, so it must be right." You also failed to actually read most of what I said. By using positive reinforcement to encourage good behavior from birth, the kids will continue to practice good behavior on their own without the need of a fear for punishment. Call me in 20 years (so my kids have a chance to grow up) and we'll compare.

@mm16424:

Positive reinforcement is not the same as "give in to whatever the kid says." You give positive reinforcement for good behavior only and never give in to bad behavior.

first off, the credit towards another flight should have been immediatly offered-if it was then it would have been made completely clear that the airlines did that when explaining things to her. Next, she should have recieved a warning, not just a boot. If you have 2 kids by yourself one is just kind of goofing off and the other is crying hysterically, your going to deal with the crying first-thats the most disruptive part during a flight- not a relativley quiet kid who wont buckle his seatbelt.if he was running up and down the aisles while people are trying to get settled thats one thing but if hes on the inside seat squirmming and not listening then thats completely different. I've been on flights where the flight attendant will offer assistance if they see a single parent struggling with the kids- sometimes its the please sit down and ill bring u a treat. be realistic people not all children behave-especially in busy environments. and that doesnt mean she wasnt trying to keep her kids in line either @hunter3742:

@SoCalGNX: Damn straight I would fly with them. In the meantime, I wish airlines offered singles (or DINK) and family only flight options.

The amount of 20-something, self-centered, "I know everything because i just got out of college", how dare you annoy me-ness of this site is really pretty thick at times.

I don't think it's possible to judge without actually witnessing the situation. I have seen parents who really make no effort to control or discipline their kids. Once a boy who was about four and his mother were sitting in front of me on a bus, and the boy turned around and spit on me. The mother saw it, and she laughed. Laughed. There is absolutely no excuse for that kind (or lack) of parenting.

On the other hand, I have also seen the frazzled mother with a screaming baby and a rambunctious toddler, the mother trying her best to wrangle in her kids but you can tell by looking at her that it's "just one of those days" and she looks like she might break down in tears herself, and all anyone does is give her and her children dirty looks.

Considering the fact that the woman in this article was dealing with a crying infant, I'm guessing she was probably in the latter category, and the flight attendants should have done something to help her (if they didn't) before kicking her off the plane.

Many of you say that it isn't the responsibility of the flight attendant to help someone with their children, but I would argue that it is. The primary jobs of a flight attendant are (1) to ensure the safety of the passengers and (2) to ensure the comfort of the passengers. Helping a frazzled mother with her children fulfills both of those responsibilities. Is it the flight attendant's job to discipline or force the child into his seat? No. But they can certainly offer him a bag of crackers, or some crayons, or try to talk him into his seat while the parent is dealing with their other child. If those things are attempted, and the parent can't get their children to stop being a safety hazard to the rest of the flight after significant effort on the part of both the parent and the attendant, then the attendant can choose to ask the family to leave.

@bicstick: Hope your kids turn out as considerate and level headed as you.

I think i'm a pretty reasonable person. I have no kids (im 24) but have siblings that are 12 and 14 years younger than me, as well as an older sibling. I hate listening to kids cry, its loud, and its annoying. That being said, I also know it happens. I fly alot, and if a kid is crying, yea its annoying, but as long as the kid is just crying, and its a young kid (like 2-3 or younger)Ill deal with it. I also understand that kids can get restless and move around and be loud, hell I do that.

But if you are traveling with 2 kids that age, you better have them very well behaved. Controlling to kids like that is a chore in the best cases, but when both are being pain, if you cant control them, you cant be on an airplane. You are then an annoyance and a hazard and should be removed.

I also resent being told that kids have rights and blah blah blah. Like all things else, your rights end, where mine start. I have the right to not be inconvienced by you. If your kid is kicking my chair, you will make him stop, if he is screaming in my ear, you will make him stop or move him away.

As an aside, this is the reason NOT to allow lap children. The 4 year old had their own seat by law, but sometimes it helps to be able to strap down the immobile ones and deal with the mobile ones for five minutes.

@FREAKHEAD: Flying is stressful on small children, so maybe the parents should drive instead.

Airlines need "adult class." I'd pay extra for that.

When you pay money for a service, you expect to receive that service or have your money refunded. That's not having a sense of entitlement.

....i guess i was wrong about you having a little more sense than the others.

@Azuaron: A nice example of positive reinforcement

[[en.wikipedia.org]'s_a_Good_Life_(The_Twilight_Zone)]

@zerj: My kids when they were 2 were fine...the difficult time for them was 4-5 years old.

@SkuldChan: To some extent it is the parents, but there are other mitigating factors that come into play, the overal health of the child, and how rested (or tired) the child is at any particular moment.

I have 2 children, 5yr (girl) and 8yr (boy). Both kids when they were infants and toddlers were relatively well behaved when they were rested, but when they were tired, they would react completely differently. My daughter would snuggle up with mom or dad and fall asleep, my son would try to fight it until he was overtired and then become unbearable.

As they have gotten older, their attitutes have changed. My daughter will still enjoy snuggling with mom or dad, but if she tries to fight napping she will become overtired and acts as if she is hyperactive (when in reality, she is simply doing anything that she can to stay awake, because if she sat still for 5 seconds she would be out like a light). My son generally now will simply find a comfortable place and fall asleep, but if you wake him up before he is ready to be woken up he turns into an absolute TERROR.

If the child is sick or not feeling well it can change their entire attitude...generally making them tired.

Fortunately, most parents know their kids and know exactly how to diffuse a bad situation, but on a plane, those tricks (like taking the child to a corner for time out) may not always be possible, and attitudes may not be predictable because of the additional stress in flying that the parents might feel (that the kids can totally detect).

@gtrgod01: Lovely attitude. Hope your teach your kids to be rude, incosiderate pricks too.

All I'm saying is parents sometimes need to fly with their kids. Sometimes kids will fuss despite a best effort on the parents behalf. Just because "stuff happens" doesn't mean that parents of small children should be ostracized.

Anyway not liking fat people or nasal voiced people is not the same. Such voice if quiet does not encroach on your life. Such "fat" person if they request extra space or buy an extra ticket, let's say, do not encroach on your space. caring or being annoyed otherwise is not reasonable, its bigotry.

your child actually screaming in a place where I can't but hear them, is not the same. If the nasal voiced person refuses to be quieter, then you are reasonably annoyed, but then its volume, not nasalness that annoys you reasonably. Your biases are not the same.

Kids cry on planes, big whoop. Your kid SCREAMING and tantruming is totally different. Your kid running up and down the aisle, totally different.

You not doing anything about it, totally unacceptable.

If your typical flight plan doesn't allow for children. Then either ban children or modify the flight plan to give time for children to settle.

Yeah, I know, but is it really that hard for them to offer a little extra customer support (not service)? Even a bag of peanuts, or heck, even saying "see that little white bag there?" *kid stops crying for a sec* "yeah.." "well, do you know what they're for??" "no... *sniffle*" "so people can PUKE EWWWWWW!!!" "! really? groosss!" or whatever. I dunno, just these little things make a big difference when you're dealing with kids.

Uhm...because people have to get out of those seatbelts in a hurry if there's a fire?

If I were the airline, I'd refund $800 of her money and send her packing.

I don't let me kids run wild, and I notice when other parents do as well. But EVERYBODY notices when parents don't do their job.

Fortunately, not much. From a physical standpoint, anyway. Even a full-grown adult couldn't open one of those doors when the cabin is pressurized, because they're "plug doors" that open inward. I doubt the crew and other passengers would be pleased, though, and you might end up having a "chat" with the police after landing.

Plus do you SERIOUSLY think the airlines can afford those little wing pins any more? Come on! (with all sarcasm, they got rid of all the cool perks for kids because they're greedy bastards)

I was on a transatlantic flight sitting next to a similar child who just had to defy her mother constantly. With no other choice but air travel, the mother brought toys, books, games, food, everything but a tranquilizer gun and had arranged to have the seats next to the window so she could box the child in if she did start to make a fuss. But the airline changed her and her child's seats to the very middle row of the plane at the gate and the attendants wouldn't let her switch even with volunteered seats. Coupled with the fact that the padding of the seat under the child routinely slipped of its frame so she would repeatably fall on the floor, the child acted up and tried to run about the cabin for three hours after the flight took-off despite everything the mother did to prevent it and because of her location multiple people were affected. The child would simply wait until the mother turned her head and off came the seat belt and a renewed attempt to wiggle away.

I didn't think for a moment that it was the fault of bad parenting or discipline, I thought it was a good example of bad policy. Considering how infamous children on planes are why can't the safety belts on planes come with child-proof modifications and allow seating be arranged so the disruption to other passengers be mitigated? If they're strapped securely in a seat then they can't run amok then the plane can leave on time, no one needs to have their money refunded and no bad PR from tossing angry parents off planes. Throwing people off is an ill-thought out, temporary solution at best.

I grew up with jerks who tormented me throughout my schooling. Their parents didn't intend that either, I am sure.

I don't want to be that parent.

Passengers agree to abide by FAA regulations (including crew member instructions) when they purchase a ticket, bottom line.

@Scribblenerd: Yea, keep your spawn in line. Its a commitment they sign up for. Their decision to have kids (or not have protection) should not adversely impact others and ruin their flight.

I would be putting that child on a plane because we have a need to travel. I will care for my child, I will discipline me child, I will control my child to the best of my ability. But I will still take my child on a plane. I will not avoid living life, or preventing my children from doing the same. Just because there is a chance I will annoy someone else does not mean that I should avoid the habit all together.

You do need to corral your children, but again stuff happens that is out of your control, you can't plan for everything.

CONTROL YOUR KIDS!

I would like to hear from a contract lawyer about if the terms of a contract are broken, what is the law when it comes to giving refunds. Getting to keep 100% of the money does not seem fair (even if they offered her a credit).

@sirwired: This

Since the mom said, 'a few minutes' and both the reporter and airline say, 'would not *stay* seated' (as opposed to not sitting at all) it sounds like the kid got up several times.

I would also think that everyone else would have been seated during this or else seated by the time they were asked to get off.

Most parents if the kid starts crying will at least acknowledge it and feed it or give it a toy or something. And in 99/100 cases most likely the kid will shut up.

I've known parents who avoided certain social situations because they knew their kids weren't up to it yet. It can be done, and it's just basic courtesy.

There is a point when everything crosses the line of being ok to being out of hand.

The article and video is seriously lacking information, but if her child became a safety risk and she did not or could not do anything about it, then she needs to be an adult, admit it, and take the children away.

Its the sense of entitlement that really is depressing. "My kids are awful and destroy things, but they're just kids! Sorry sir, here's your wig back. Hey, stop yelling at my kids cause my kids are yelling! Grow up!"

Accept responsibility for what you do, and as an extension, what your responsibilities do. If I own a doberman and he runs off and bites some kid, guess what? That's MY fault! Imagine that. Personal responsibility. Your kids are no different. Control them, and if you cannot control them, do not put them in situations where you will have negative consequences to their actions.

Actually it does - Arbitrary : Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference.

That's kind of the DEFINITION of arbitrary

Most business should be upfront with that. "If you don't do X, then you lose your money and the product" instead of some TOS buried on some webpage.

....you're obviously not a parent but at least have a "little" more sense than most on here.

I disagree that most people do that well. Most people do not do that well. Do you know how often little kids nearly run into me while I am walking, or run around restaurants and supermarkets completely unsupervised? I've almost barreled over kids that were just wandering around apparently and for some reason would up directly in front of me with me having forward momentum and only an inch of room, if that, to stop myself from completely knocking them over. half the time the parents are nowhere to even be seen, let alone offer an apology for their kid. how about the 4 kids running around the pho restaurant screaming at the top of their lungs? my friend asked me "uhhh, where are the parents? those kids are out of control." and I said "exactly, they're enjoying their time off! screw everyone else in this place if they can get 30 minutes of peace."
that isn't to say I don't feel for parents in THIS type of situation, where she has 2 kids and is actively trying to do something about them. but fuck, saying that most people control their kids is total bullshit.

Removal of privileges in this day and age does not work, we see it all the time, you take away everything they have and they just run off to a friends house, without physical force, there is not way to stop them.

Yes, from a young age they should be taught the correct ways, but it does not always work. Maybe I do have a twisted sense of reasoning, but hey, we are all products of our environments, and while I was punished in ways many disagree with as a child, these days I am a well integrated member of society with a good paying job, good husband with many quality upstanding members of society as friends, a huge difference from when I was a kid and ran with the wrongish crowd for years.

But I see all too often, current society raising their children with the TV, giving in, no backbone, no carrying through with threats (whether they be mental, or physical, and I do not advocate abuse, but there is a fine line between abuse and punishment, many cross it).. I guess my view is that the current generation of children have no hope.. a depressing outlook, but it seems that way.

I too hate when I have a crying child behind me but I don't want to kick them off because of it. A crying child does not equal a bad child or terrible parenting.

Too often we see parents who say "Well that's just what kids do." That's true. That is what kids do. And the unsaid-but-implied message is "I chose to have these children, and you have to deal with being irritated by them."

And that is where we part ways. You chose to have the children. If I wanted to be annoyed by constant screaming, crying, and running up and down, I would have had children myself. Society should not be inconvenienced by your choices. If you chose to have the kid, then you have to deal with the inconvenience of realizing that there are some things that you cannot do until the kid is old enough to handle it.

You're entirely correct that young children can find airplanes a frightening and disturbing place. So, then, why are you putting your young children on that plane? Not only is the child's misbehavior annoying us, but you are, by your own admission, willfully frightening the child because you do not wish to be inconvenienced by not going on the airplane.

Discipline is important though, but beating.. definitely not.

@Xerloq, we are all made of stars.:

4 year olds like to move...right, however, the plane cannot take off with a kid not in his seat, and if he is possibly causing a delay (which of course would have a domino effect on subsequent flights) I agree with removing them.

People act differently when unfamiliar/uncomfortable situations occur. Children are no exception. There is no yardstick for how a child will always react.

Sorry but I am an old school type of disciplinarian, even though i don't have kids I use the same rule with my cat. My cat gets knows by the tone of my voice that she is doing something she shouldn't be (walking on the tv stand, jumping on the counters, etc) and she stops (with some meow bitching but she still stops). If she does something really bad, like try to run out on the fire escape or is eating something that can harm her she gets her butt spanked. Trust me she doesn't do it again. I don't abuse my baby girl and she is the most sweetest, lovable, friendly cat you ever want to meet. She always sleeps with me, she listen to commands, she does not bite or scratch, she loves to comfort me when I am sick or sad and just rub up on me to show me she is happy that I am there. We have a great relationship and I will raise my kids in the same manner. It's all about balance. That's the way i was raised and that is the way I will raise my children.

Sometimes Children just need time to be comforted when they are upset.

@hunter3742:

It's a mixed failure. Yes, the airline should remove unruly passengers no matter their age. But if they are willing to act within normal bounds, the Airline should then place them on the next available flight.

I cringe when I see those small things mosey on to a plane. But generally, I slap on the headphones and blast - I'm usually not bothered. I even wear my headphones through take off and landings, even when they say not to.
I just advise everyone else to do the same thing... bad parenting and overpopulation aside.
I have more backstory comments about this woman's situation but that's not the point.

So we aren't going to give you the service that you have paid for. And we won't give you another ticket. And we won't give you your money back. Yeah, that sounds totally fair.

I'm going to open a gas station with this policy.
ME "Sorry bud, you are talking on your cell phone. I'm gonna have to ask you to get in the back of the line."
Schmuck "What, I already paid you $40."
ME "Sorry no refunds, it's policy."
Schmuck "That's BS"
ME "OK I'll give you a credit for your next tank of gas"
Schmuck "Fine how much?"
ME "Your next tank of gas wil be.....$35"
Schmuck "WTF?"

IMPO, I totally disagree.
I say, while in public (and especially on a plane), parents should be telling their kids to be on their ABSOLUTE BEST behavior and KEEPING them on it.
The entitlement complex parents have annoys the hell out of me.
Poping out a kid doesn't give anyone more rights over others, it ONLY means they have more RESPONSIBILITY.
And in this case, the woman failed in her responsibility. It's not the airline's responsibility or place to parent her kids. Neither should she be expecting others to put up with the results of her lack of parental responsibility (unruly children).

I've seen parents rile their children up while waiting at the terminal saying "Are you ready to ride on the plane!? It's like a roller-coaster! Ain't you Excited!?"
Then go to feed their kid the McDonalds tarmac food. All resulting in a kid that was not only bouncing off the walls and running around the terminal, but also acting like the flight was going to be some sort of party.

Plane trips are not meant to be a form of entertainment.

And many people expect children to be curious. To try to make anything and everything into a game. To play with anything and everything as if it were a toy.
While this may be acceptable at their home or on a playground, a plane is neither of these things. What if during this 'acceptable' behavior the kid decides to play with that cool emergency door latch?
It needs to be pointed out that there are A LOT of things that a kid can get into on a plane that could cause problems. Not only for himself and the other passengers, but also possibly for future passengers. For example, what if while playing the kid decides to stick gum in the crack for the emergency oxygen mask panel?

We've got to remember that even though decades have gone by since plane/jet travel was first introduced, and even though it has improved as a form of travel over those decades, flying is STILL dangerous.

A plane is not romper-room.
Strap your kids in and keep them on their BEST behavior.

We expect nothing less of the other travelers, so why should parents get carte-blanche for their kids just because of their kid's age?

@zerj:

"Letting people with parents board the plane first is probably the biggest mistake you could make."

Not nitpicking grammar/typos here, as I could tell what you were trying to say, but the typo did make me smile b/c I was picturing a youngish adult with an unruly elderly couple in tow kicking and screaming and throwing their false teeth and walkers.

@justsomeotherguy: You obviously don't love kids if you advocate beating them.

To risk taking the side of the people calling others "child-haters" in these threads, there is a bit of tolerance needed. Babies cry, children will yell from time to time.

However, once it crosses the line into physical acting out or tantrum, the parent needs to parent, period. If they cannot, off they go.

When you buy seats on an airplane, it is not the airline's responsibility to make sure you are in those seats when the plane takes off. It is the airline's responsibility to make sure the seats are available (they were) and that the plane makes it to its destination on time (it did). Sure, it's nice if an airline does bends over backwards to get a customer to their destination when the customer messes up, but it is, by no means, their responsibility.

This being the Consumerist, think about if this situation was reversed. What if she did everything right, and then the airline overbooked the flight and she couldn't get on. Then she said she'd institute a charge back on her credit card and not pay the airline, but the airline whined about losing the money. Who would have sympathy for the airline? No one.

We talk about consumer protection all the time, but, you know what? Sometimes the consumer is wrong, and they need to be ejected from the airplane, and it is NOT the airline's responsibility to cover that loss when the customer breaks the rules.

@hunter3742:

And the airline was certain the kids would not be crying on the next flight? At what point does it end?

For an airline industry that is hurting financially, they certainly have some assinine policies, and as someone that has flown dozens of times, there are certainly worse things that can happen to me than a crying child.

Please be reasonable with your accusations.

young children react to stress by crying, or fidgeting. they don't have the restraints adults have put into place.

Children can be very well behaved 99% of the time, and STILL freak out because 1) it's probably a completely unfamiliar experience to most young children 2) getting from the terminal to the plan can be rather harrowing at times for an adult 3) Airplane are full of loud noises, unfamiliar people, and lots of stress.

I'm very tired of people saying "Control your kids" because most people already do that very well. Children still are children. Stuff happens.

That way we can save the actual growling for the times when she doesn't stop the offending behaviour, and really, most of the time that comes down to fatigue we so know it's coming anyway and wouldn't take her out.

Like right now, she's been told if she wants to go to the special event at the Wildflower Center tonight, she has to have a nap, because it's just no fun for any of us to go anywhere with Little Ms OverTiredCrankyPants. And if she doesn't sleep, screw it, we're so not going.

I understand that some children act out, and this situation was above and beyond a child crying. We are all intelligent enough to understand flying is stressful and babies will cry because they don't understand but this kid was FOUR YEARS OLD.
He should know what was up, and if anything his mother should have been able to explain the situation to him.

They weren't kicked off because the kid was crying, they were kicked off because the mother could not control her child, which is her job and her responsibility. As a parent, she was being irresponsible and inattentive. Its no different for throwing someone off the plane because they were stupid and got drunk.

The children are the responsibility of the parent.

Plane don't move when people are moving. Period.

Drive.

The airline was right.

If you have kids, and can't keep them under control, take the bus.

I don't have kids, but if I ever do, and I'm become that mom, I'd expect the airline to kick me off the flight as well.

There's no different standard for adults, they should kick a great deal more people off the plane than they do.

Either that or put a yes/no button on every passengers seat with the totals visible at the front of the cabin.

A simple majority decides who gets to fly, and who gets kicked off. I bet that would make people much more considerate.

Its more a factor of if the adult is willing to be an adult and realize when their children are out of line, or totally out of control.

People should be more tolerant of others, yes, but there is a limit on how much tolerance that other should ask for.

@madanthony: but i write that i dont pay for stuff really small on all of my money, so by accepting my payment they're agreeing i don't have to pay. dammit, i just gave myself a headache.

I agree with all the previous comments on various topics above - kids act out all the time, and there's very little you can do to control it sometimes. However, your kids should know when you are unhappy and know consequences if you tell them they are in trouble. If they continue to act out, it is the responsibility of the parent to discipline them there an get them in line (threaten privledge removal or something) or get the hell out of dodge and deal with it in private.

This woman instead feels that it is everyone's responsibility to deal with her lack of discipline towards her children.

@Erskine: not very bright are you? aside from pulling out a ridiculous comparison argument that has nothing to do with the topic on hand, he said pretty clearly that he doesn't have kids. maybe you should learn reading comprehension before responding to posts.

Damn right. I am sick and tired of people who think their kids should be able to cause problems for everyone around them.

Parents: if you can't control your children, they're too young to fly. There is absolutely no excuse for not doing something when a child is having a tantrum or otherwise misbehaving, and if you don't understand why that makes other people upset, especially on a plane, you are, to put it politely, an idiot.

There is NO WAY you can honestly look at these comments and NOT think that practically everyone hates kids. Apparently every flyer on here was a model child and as an adult is so self centered that even the smallest infraction of their personal space, auditory canals or range of sight requires that person, or child as it seems, should be removed, parents deemed unfit and permanently banished from society.

When we flew from Vegas to Sydney when my daughter was 21 months old, she cried a few times on that 16 hour flight. I wanted to cry myself. It sucked big time. But I worked really hard to keep her crying to a minimum...I nursed on demand (as always), I bought special toys beforehand to produce as distractions throughout the flight, I stayed up the whole time to entertain her as much as possible, etc. And yet I still got glared at by the woman in the next row when my daughter so much as peeped.

First, my anecdotal evidence: when I was a wee alien, we lived in Canada despite the extended family living in the US. We flew once. One time. Never again. The pressure changes wrought havoc on my tiny ear drums and I let everyone know. It was a miserable flight, so I'm told, for both my parents and everyone on the plane. My parents were probably in the wrong for having thought air travel was a good idea at that age...but THEY LEARNED from that trip; we took the train from then on until I was physically able and maturity-wise able to fly (the jury's still out on the maturity part 28 years later, though).

Why do we, as a flying public majority, constantly think it's alright for people not to be considerate of others? When did this happen? I'm in no way saying this mother can't control her child, or that her child is a monster. But, we have to, at some point, say, "Look...you know your child better than anyone else. Do you HONESTLY think your child is ready to fly? Remember, you're NOT the only one on the plane. In fact, you may very well be the ONLY person with a child." There's got to be SOME level of accountability for this.

I can't watch the video for various reasons IT-related, so I can't make a call on the mom, but people without children have a right to a peaceful flight, just as parents have a (somewhat lesser right) to bring a potentially-unruly child on a plane. This is a case of majority rule, IMHO. If the majority of the people will be childless, and disrupted by the minority's offspring, then the minority is in the wrong.

- Does this mean I can just knock over all the tard business people who hold up everyone getting on and off the plane while they stand there taking off their coat, folding it, putting it into the overhead, taking off their suit jacket, folding it, putting that in the overhead, then spending another 5 minutes trying to stuff their overly plump carry-on in the overhead, then pulling out someone elses carry-on to stuff their totebag into the overhead then finally looking around while snapping for the steward to get a pillow and blanket for them before sitting down.

Seriously, I haven't been on a flight for the last 5 years that this hasn't happened.

You know why you were a horrible child? Because you were frequently punished. Had you been properly rewarded and encouraged for proper behavior, you'd have been a little angel.

If punishment is necessary, it should be directly related to the consequences of the child's bad behavior, and often a loss of benefits is more effective than an application of pain or discomfort. For instance, kid won't stay in his seat on the airplane? First, try the bribe (if you behave, you'll get ice cream when we get to Montana), and then the threat, (if you don't behave, you don't get to watch TV for a month).

Another problem with physical punishment is it's actually a reward. Any kind of attention, ANY, is rewarding to a child. Eventually, they'll start acting out just to get hit, because that's the kind of attention they'll know they can get. Punishment that focuses on isolation and a lack of attention, and rewards that focus on positive attention, are always more effective.

Also, read B. F. Skinner's thoughts on delayed gratification. It's essential for children.

Onward to the actual topic at hand, is your line of reasoning that the airline is at fault because society has created unruly children? Because that's a very twisted line of reasoning.

"Wouldn't stay in his seat" IS the safety issue, you don't need to know anything more than that. FAA regulations prevent a plane from leaving a gate to taxi onto the runway if ANYONE is not sitting in their seat, buckled in, with seat back and tray tables in an upright position. This is not an arbitrary airline policy; it's FAA-wide regulations.

So whether the person who is not buckled in is 4 or 44 years old, and whether he's not seated because he's a child who hasn't learned to listen, is a sloshed grownup, or is having a psychotic breakdown, the plane can't leave the gate. That can cause a pretty quick ripple effect of delays (i.e. the plane can lose its takeoff slot with only a 10 minute delay, which then turns into a 45 minute delay to get back into the queue).

Honestly, I don't think we have enough information either way.

Either way, they should still have offered her another flight at the same price or given her a refund.

An infant or toddler crying in a family restaurant during typical family dining time is a suck-it-up-and-deal situation. Those who don't like to hear kids cry shouldn't go to family restaurants at those times.

A seven year old throwing food at their little sister during that same restaurant and time is NOT okay, because at that age they ought to know better, and throwing food could cause a slipping hazard for other people.

An infant crying in a fancy, romantic restaurant at 9:30 at night is not nearly as acceptable as a family restaurant during family dinner time.

There are degrees of acceptability. A parent with a 2 year old crying on a flight is hardly "subjecting everyone to your wailing child" because there's no rational way of stopping a child that young from crying. Your statement implies intent on the part of the parent, and that's unfair. Most parents are pretty decent people and do try to stop their kids from crying because they don't like it either. The last thing they need is harsh judgment from others.

But a parent with 4 year old who won't stay in their seat is indeed party to a serious safety hazard, and a 4 year old ought to be able to stay seated (if unhappily) on demand.

I'd suggest saving judgment for the actual rare asshats out there who do let their kids run around like crazy and don't do sufficient parenting.

hey kicked her off in a matter of minutes before the flight had even started

I think it would have been considerably worse if they had kicked her off minutes after the flight had started.

Further down the thread someone mentioned that bag matching is no longer needed because they xray your checked bags now - I had forgotten that, so they are probably right.

@sirwired: how can you say it's no fault of the airline? they didn't miss the flight, they were ejected from it. maybe they were right to do it, maybe they weren't but you can't say it's no fault of the airline.

The whole ordeal for flying is quite a lot to handle for even the most patient among us. You would think we all could be more understanding and accommodating when faced with this situation.

Have we gotten to the point where its OK to kick woman and children off a plane?

I have two very well behaved children but I can not promise that after 2 hours at an airport, going through security, taking a tram, running up and down stairs, dragging our luggage, coats, strollers, etc, and getting stuffed on a plane that is loud and cramped that my 2 year old will not cry.

I would imagine there is probably some sort of "terms of service" that one agrees to when they buy the tickets, which probably state, in 3 point legalese, that the airline can remove you and not refund your money.

It may or may not stand up in court, but in theory both parties have agreed to it, unlike your "I don't pay for stuff" policy.

@Saboth: I agree that it isn't the airline's responsibility, but there was probably a better way of handling the situation. Giving someone a little time isn't delaying the flight by 10 minutes, it's handling a situation in a way that isn't excessive.

Honestly, I don't think we have enough information either way.

The burden of blame lays not with the children but with the parents and their lack of discipline.

Fine remove the kids but if I was the mother Id have said " Mommy will see you when I get back".

@pecan 3.14159265:

that's the whole point--everyone has to be seated and restrained in order to get that far. This woman couldn't get her precious snowflake that far.

Not true. There are laws to protect against discrimination in such cases. You can't hang a "no children" sign on just any restaurant door any more than you can hang a "no black people" sign.

As for the safety hazard, I agreed with that part, nitwit. Try reading someone's entire post next time before you spout a bunch of nonsense. And thank you for not reproducing!

Unless the kid is kicking YOUR sear or smacking YOU in the forehead it's none of YOUR damn business because it's not really causing YOU any problems. Just cause you can see it doesn't mean it's causing you a problem.

You are responsible for your children's behavior, just as I was for mine. End of story.

That's when you ask for your meal to go instead of subjecting everyone to your wailing child. That's when you respectfully bow off the plane because your kid will not sit down shut up and behave.

Its all a factor of how well you've been parenting them beforehand, discipline, etc. Hopefully, they'll realize they are in the wrong and start behaving. Granted there are times when they will. not. behave. That's when the adult acts like an adult and takes the kids away.

@Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.: I thought the mother was young, but I don't judge based on age. I have a friend who got pregnant (oopsies) at 18 - she's one of the most mature and responsible people I know. Age doesn't always imply immaturity. And everyone has different ways of speaking. She didn't live in a shack, her home looked clean, her children looked fed and happy and dressed properly for being children.

For some of them...I'm not even sure they are aware their spawn is around. "Mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy", and she is just reading a book or talking on a phone or something, while the rest of the plane/restaurant, etc, have to listen to the annoyance.

You see when you choose to have kids, its not the kids that are being embarrassing or cranky, its you in the plural, as a unit, including yourself. If the kids are out of control, then you, as a unit, are out of control, and you need to take care of it. It's not the people around you's problem if you can't get your kid to behave reasonably in the relatively short window before take-off. Because, you see, the airline must by letting you stay when your kid is unruly, risk having that kid not calm down and be unruly for an entire flight. Sometimes that means making the hard call that you, as a unit, have to leave. And you who share in your child's successes and failures even beyond your control, or your child's control at times, need to deal with that.

I don't really think it is the airline's responsibility to control her children. What kind of help did she need? Someone to strap the 4 year old to the seat? Someone to hold her baby while she changed the diaper? Not sure what you expect them to do about it. Physically restrain the 4 year old? I'd think she'd then be suing. The airline can either delay the flight while the situation is dealt with, causing a cascade of missed flights for the rest of the day, and thousands of mad people, or just remove the problem.

With all that being said, I see people on airplanes who start complaining about kids behavior and noise while the kids are still quietly walking down the aisle looking for their seat. The mere existence of a child on their flight ratchets up their annoyed meter and they start projecting all their dislike of children on airplanes in general to this specific child who has thus far done nothing to deserve it. And those people apparently all post here.

@Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.: Isn't El Al also the most secure airline in the world? Their luggage policy would explain some of that.

Additionally, it's really aggravating when parents assume that people without children must somehow accomodate people WITH children to sometimes-extreme lengths just because some people chose to bring demon-spawn into the world. Why must the child-less always make exceptions for the child-full? People without children, or without children present, have every right to enjoy their flight, just as the parent has some modicum of entitlement to a bit of understanding that children aren't always well-behaved. But, the vast majority of passengers on a plane are without child (either through logistics or biology), and should not have to endure people who cannot, or perhaps will not control a child, either at the moment, or over the course of said demon spawn's adolescent years.

@pecan 3.14159265:
The problem with your argument that the airline should have given her time or assistance is that 1.) by giving her time, they are wasting the time of every other passenger on the plane and 2.) the airline is not responsible for keeping the passengers children in line. If she couldnt handle flying alone with two chidren, then she shouldnt have been on a plane.

And people like you who make ridiculous statements comparing an evil, horrible crime to a kid running around being annoying and obnoxious, are in fact the reason this country is so screwed up.. I do not need quotes to show my contempt for you.

Plus, look at the manor of the mother, she seems all of 16 and totally out of touch with her reality. "Like whatever"..

If I can do it, others can as well. Again, man up pansies, stop acting like the precious snowflakes you are accusing these mothers of having as children.

This argument drives me nuts. sometimes people with unruly kids HAVE to fly. (Funeral, operation etc.)

And then it is also up to the parent to realize when a situation is wholly out of control and bow out. Which this lady is obviously not willing to do.

....commence story on how you were....

@jvanbrecht:

So what if I'm raping your 76 year old mom in the seat next to you? "...suck it up for a few hours people, buy ear plugs, close your eyes, wear headphones.. but everyone should be able to travel."

You are obviously a "parent" (quoted to show my contempt for those that spawn but do not act as such).

There is a line.

The company provides a service and they are well within their rights to deny that service to whomever they see fit.

Of course the mom is going to sit there and say how her little kids are angels who were just fussy as the "Big Bad Airline" is silent. I think the first words are not always the correct ones.

Without knowing what the kid actually did, you can't say the airline was justified. "Wouldn't stay in his seat" is too vague.

However, I'd sure like to hear the other side of this story. The mom will certainly not admit to having out of control kids.

@dantsea: I'm going to side with pecan on this one. Whether a hardened flight crew bounces you for looking at them funny or lets you get away with anything short of murder varies immensely.

The ability of a kid to handle a flight will vary from moment to moment, just as it will for an adult. I average three leisure roundtrips a year, and have days that I am cranky. I told an AF FA what I thought of her countrymen because she wanted me to move my bad knee from a bulkhead aisle to a rear middle. Yet, most flights, I disembark with nothing but smiles and laughter.

Finally, most folks don't want kids to fly until they can "handle" it. What about folks with a fear of flying - should we ban them? And how does a kid learn to handle flying without actually earning BIS miles? My kid knows that as soon as we step on a plane she goes to 5F. She waits for the car seat to be buckled, and then hops in. But, she wasn't always like that. And yet, even she had a bad day. Why? Because when you arrive early, only to have your flight delayed, it will screw with your schedule.

@anonymousryan: Where does it say the plane was in movement?

Plus, it sucks for the passenger that gets kicked off because their luggage is there without them. That should be in the bill of rights too... barring extreme circumstances your baggage should always be in the same place as you.

It doesn't matter if he's standing ON his seat...he needs to have his butt planted for anyone to get away from the gate.

@soloudinhere: The video mentioned absolutely nothing about the plane being in movement. Even if the boy was out of his seat, they could have simply asked the mother to buckle in her boy, the flight attendants could have asked her if she needed any help.

You have the ability and will power to control your alcoholism. You can control it because you decide whether to have a drink.

Children are learning control. Parent's help them. No matter what I decide, I can't control my child's reaction to a situation any more than I can control your decision to drink or not.

@jvanbrecht: Right, let us work around the fact that the parents can't be bothered to parent.

After all, it's considered torture to blast rock music at suspected terrorists. How much worse is a screaming child?

@SkuldChan:

My kids are normally great in my opinion. However everybody gets cranky me included sitting in one place for 5 hrs. It doesn't help that you need to have all your means of distraction tucked away for takeoff. All 2 yr olds wear thier emotions on thier sleeves and will let you know about it. For older kids absolutely you can look to the parents but they don't call them the terrible twos for nothing.

@LaLindaSFO: I disagree. You expected some kind of apology - I didn't. The point was, she was making an effort to get her children situated, and Allegiant kicked her off rather than give her a little time or assistance. I didn't see an off-putting sense of entitlement at all.

And first on the list is that Jerk in the 25th row that puts his shit in the overheat above my seat in row 6

@kaceetheconsumer: NO, the kids do not have the RIGHT to be on planes, in family restaurants ... etc. These are privately owned businesses and it is entirely up to the owner or his representatives to determine who gets to stay. There is no discrimination in this case, the airline is not saying that no one with children may fly, they are saying that when your children present a huge annoyance and safety hazard it is in their best business and safety interest to kick you and your ill behaved offspring off the flight.

But if she was getting out of her seat, that could put her and other passengers in danger. At that point, I as the parent must intervene for the safety of everyone, and if I fail to - either by lack of effort or lack of ability - then it does become the right of other authority figures to step in and work to the safety of all.

My kid used to wander off in stores too, until she realized that she gets one warning and after that, we leave the store. That was a right royal pain in the ass for me sometimes, but safety is more important than shopping.

Today at Hobby Lobby she asked to not have to ride in the cart. I said okay, as long as she stayed in good behaviour and didn't wander off (or push/pull the cart too fast since I was leaning on it because of my bad foot). She totally respected that because in the past, when she hasn't, I've removed the privilege she's asked for very quickly.

If she was in a mood to not listen, I probably wouldn't have gone there at all even though I really needed the yarn for a friend's birthday present for next week.

Right now she's getting to do beading at the same time as watching TV because she has behaved so well all morning, and I make sure to tell her that.

No offense to your friend, but she just taught her kid that not listening pays off because he still got to be out. He now has the power because he knows he doesn't have to listen to anything she says. And if she punished him after the fact and he's younger than 5, his brain is most likely incapable of fully linking the punishment to the crime and he still won't have learned.

@dantsea: Except airlines have been throwing people off flihts for any minor thing that bothers the crew. Remember the woman with a kid that was making some noise and they threw her off too. [consumerist.com]

@david.c: There you have it. You can't dismiss your kids' bad behavior, and your lousy parenting, with an oh-well shrug and "kids will be kids."

I want to know was what exactly the four year old was doing and what saftey risk it posed. "Wouldn't stay in his seat" is too vague to make a judgment. The airline would be made to explain if an adult were removed from the plane on such a vague charge.

My point is that an adults annoyance with children is not an excuse to act childishly, as many commenters here do when we get these types of stories.

@gtrgod01: No one hates the children, just their half-assed parents who can't be bothered to, you know, actual parent.

Let little Johnny and Janey punch the seat, shout, and throw food because you can't be bothered to discipline them, and yet we're the ones who have to grow up.

1) The airline did not provide the agreed service.
2) The airline refuses to refund money.
3) Theft by airline.
4) Sue in small claims court. They probally won't show up anyway. You win. In any case, let the airline explain to the judge why they took your money and didn't supply the service in a timely fashion.

Yes, kids are unpredictable sometimes getting them to sit still is sometimes hard, especially in cramped confined spaces of the plane.

At the same time, I remember my own antics as a kid (I was a horrible child), I was loud, I threw tantrums, I ran around, I kicked seats.. you know what my mother, who was single and travelling with 2 children alot (state dep brat, so I flew alot as a child), she bent me over her knee in the plane and beat the shit out of my ass, occasionally she smacked me across the top of my head... there were plenty of disciplinary actions she took, when they were legal years ago, and it worked, the initial shock of being smacked shut me up for a good long while....

That being said, the problem is discipline, I do not want to derail the thread, and I know every parent has their own ideas of how to discipline children, but guess what, without some fear of repercussions (whether that be corporal, or mental punishment), kids won't listen, thats a fact, and there is nothing you can do about it because kids these days run straight to social services or their teachers and the parents end up in trouble.. And until a parent has sufficient abilities to discipline their children in a way the child understands, nothing will ever change.

I do not have kids, for fear they will end up like I was as a kid, and one day I might have them... which means I will probably end up in jail..

Oh, and I know the difference between punishment, and abuse, so don't pull the all corporal punishment is abuse crap, because its not, my mother knew where to draw the line.

So, suck it up for a few hours people, buy ear plugs, close your eyes, wear headphones.. but everyone should be able to travel.

@pecan 3.14159265:

Yes, actually, abiding by the uniformned crew members's judgment as to what constitutes unacceptable behavior is precisely what you agree to in buying a ticket. The bare fact that the cre members' judgment is solely theirs, and not subject to appeal does not make it arbitrary.

@craptastico: That's a good point.

@s73v3r: Where are you getting this info? I watched the whole video and I don't think at any point did anyone say the four year old was running around. Everyone just said that he was out of his seat. That doesn't mean running around.

@MacMasterShane: Bravo!

While it's easy to make the claim that "kids will be kids", the lack of journalistic integrity from the local news that aired this story makes it hard to do anything but guess (as another commenter has already mentioned). It tells one side of a story, and even showcases the local reporter trying to pull a "gotcha" on the airlines PR person. He was asking loaded questions in a snarky way. I don't think that's objective news reporting.

I hope this mommy finds someone to help her wrangle the youngsters into knowing that it's not OK to misbehave in public places (which an airplane really is). I also hope she stops using the word "like" so frequently in her conversations.

It's bad enough out there with adults that act like her kids...

@Colonel Jack O'Neill: you beat me to it. i was just getting ready to recommend the BA BAracus treatment for transporting her kids by plane.

@coren: How do you know that, How do you know that this flight was not overbooked? maybee they did fill it up when they left.

I suspect that she could have indeed boarded the next Allegiant flight, but that flight wasn't going to take place until Sunday. (I checked.)

Yes, taking another airline is going to cost more money, but if you miss a flight due to no fault of the airline (which is the case here), they are in no way obligated to offer you a refund. And putting the customer on the next Allegiant flight really isn't an option, due to the sparse schedule.

They were right to be ejected from the flight (the flight CANNOT even leave the gate if the kid won't stay in his seat.) The fussy 2-yr-old was a red herring, the real issue was the kid that wouldn't stay buckled in.

@Xerloq, we are all made of stars.: Take care to control your kids, your supposed to be the parent.

@mxjohnson: Just because he wasn't in his seat doesn't mean he wasn't just standing between his seat and the back of the person in front of him. Kids are small. Heck, I'm an adult and I can stand in that space between the seats.

Having kids is a very legitimate activity. We were all kids at some point. Kids will need to travel. If airlines adopt the stance that they have no responsibility to ensure that traveling children and their guardians know how to behave and have strategies to ensure that behaviour we will all suffer.

In this specific case was the mother not offered early boarding to settle her children prior to other passengers boarding? Were the onboard staff not able to assist her with settling the children? Were there complaints from other passengers? Did the behaviour continue for a long period of time? ...

Some kids are not good candidates for flying and some parents are so poorly skilled they should not be parents, but that is life.

All said though, I have no desire to repeat the trans Pacific flight to Australia with a poopy diapered kid in the seat behind me again... or fly to the Caribean with screaming brats... or have to wish I could duct tape the devil spawn racing up and down the isle...

@SkuldChan: I find that it depends. I am told that I was a very well behaved child, but that was partially because I was shy and would rather stay quiet than talk, and I'd rather read than play with other kids. So to some people, I was very well behaved.

@Corporate_guy: but what's the difference between her flying the later flight or the original one? it's not like her kids are going to mature over a few hours. they'll just act the same on the next flight.

Kids are honest, and will tell how it is if left unchecked. All claims of improper or poor parental skills aside, just about any child is susceptible to a temper tantrum. Anyone with children - shoot, just about anyone that recalls themselves as a child - can vouch for this. It's just a part of life. And there is no telling when it will happen, however odds are that it will happen at the most inopportune time.

The parent should have been given time to wrangle the kids and gather her (and the children's) composure. If they weren't, it is sad but not surprising. While I'm sure the flight crew and the passengers on board were glad they had to deal with two fewer children with tantrums on board, the mother was far more inconvenienced than what should be considered tolerable by any consumer-minded citizen. If the mother was allotted time to gather her composure and wrangle the kids but couldn't, then she should have been given another flight out.

From here, she should have been granted a refund on the spot or had her ticket transfered to another airline. The credit towards a future flight (at that point) meant very little and was more or less a slap in the face.

When it comes to these sorts of actions, it's not whether or not the company can or cannot dole out the credit - it is simply a matter of if they want to. They would rather not, take the free advertising they get as a result of the regional / national coverage, and lose a customer for life.

@ct_price: I don't buy this, at all. I hate loud kids like everyone else. I really, really hate loud kids. But I also hate loud adults.
I know when I fly that I could be near the loud kids, or next to someone who spills over into my personal space. I also know I could be sitting near people who won't stop talking to me.

It's a gamble. You always run the risk of sitting next to crappy passengers. But just because it happens doesn't make me stop working with an airline because it was the passengers that made the flight crap, not the airline. These people are everywhere. Part of being an adult is just dealing with others.

If a healthy four year old has the same reactions/behavior as an infant, then that four year old hasn't been raised properly. There is a difference between a six month old crying because it's hungry and a bored four year old who CAN sit still, but WON'T.

Parents who are unwilling to make that distinction are hurting their own kids as much as they're annoying the general population.

And the lack of resale is the airline's problem - the mother did not want to leave the flight. If she canceled it'd be one thing, but she was prevented from flying - why should she bear the financial responsibility for that when it was the airline's choice?

I can't believe I wasted so much time asking other parents for advice when I should have just turned to those without children. They have all the answers!

And given the spectrum of how this sort of behavior is handled, it's hard to say if they would have gotten kicked off some other airline or what

Pansies. Man up you whiners.

Oy, I hope I never have to wrangle two children that close in age around places where they have to be quiet and well-behaved for hours and hours. I don't know if I could do it.

Back to the issue at hand: If the child would not sit in his seat, the plane can't take off. 200 people being detained because of a four year old who won't listen to the word "no" is more than an inconvenience.

@curmudgeon5: The rule of the airline is that it can arbitrarily kick you off your flight if a few individual crew members think you're taking too long to keep your kids quiet?

You're an adult, you know the consequence of your behavior. You get sloshing drunk, you know that you'll get kicked off the plane.

A baby's natural reaction to a stressful situation is to cry. Babies can't control that, nor can they predict the consequence. Four-year-olds have similar reactions.

Part of being an 'adult' is the ability to control your actions and reactions.

Yet you want to justify adult's bad behavior by putting them on a morally equivalent level with a child? That's just wrong.

I have a brother and sister who's kids are like little devils who's goal in life is to make everyone else life around them completely miserable no matter where they are. Surely the parents are responsible in both cases no?

@kaceetheconsumer: Being told to do something makes no difference. Kids act up. They don't listen. I was out with a friend the other day, and her kid was driving me insane. He just kept wandering off. We kept telling him to stay close, to stop wandering away, and he wouldn't listen. The whole day, he was making my blood boil because he just. would. not. listen.

The reality is that parents, in today's day and age, suffer from lack of personal responsibility syndrome.

Far too often, they expect / demand that other people put up with their kids BAD behavior when that behavior is OBVIOUSLY due to a lack of discipline.

So ... if I raise a pitbull, train it to fight, feed it gun powder to make it mean, I am somehow not responsible when it mauls somebody? Of course I am responsible.

But if I raise a brat (cause I am too lazy, too weak, too stupid, too whatever) somehow I am not responsible for my kids action? Puh-lease.

And before you go there, I have a 16 year old that is well on his way to being a responsible adult so I have very little sympathy for lazy / stupid parents.

Does "a few minutes" mean 3? Or 10?

@cabjf: Not with the touch of a button...but good parents either have control of their kids OR know that their kids won't be able to cope with air travel (and don't bring them).

These issues are complex, and I wasn't there so I can't really judge. I feel bad for the kids, but it is the responsibility of the parent(s) to control their kids. If the kid (or anyone) won't sit down then the plane is not going anywhere. The only options are to have the kid sit/behave, remove the family or cancel the flight.

I'm starting to think that these people hate kids more than Best Buy, any of the bailed out banks, or actually everything put together.

consumerist.com....the place where we rag on business but hate children more.

If your kids can't sit still for the length of a flight, then perhaps its time to choose another mode of transportation where they don't need to, or decide if they need to be traveling in the first place.

@kateblack: The news story quoted her as saying that it was only a few minutes. There was no mention of whether a crew had tried to help, only a crew member approaching her and asking her to leave.

Drug your kids with robetussin or dimetapp. That way they sleep peacefully through the entire flight and nobody is bothered.

I was on a plane to Boston a couple of weeks ago and on one side of the aisle was a lady and her husband, on the other side were their 3 kids - all under the age of 11 or so. The parents completely ignored their yelling, seat-kicking, punching each other, and other ridiculous behavior. This should have been put in check by the parents, and if they didn't - by the flight attendant.

My brother and I were not "perfect" children (as there is no such thing), but my relatives are quick to tell us how well-behaved we were growing up and I definitely have to thank my parents for that. It's not impossible to keep them in line. There's a time and a place to be loud and energetic - a plane ride from AZ to MT is not that time nor that place.

I think some consumers need to realize that marketers must protect their brand and may be willing to risk destroying their relationship with you in order to preserve the loyalty of others. A terrible flying experience could be more financially devastating than removing the hindrance and dealing with a firestorm of bad PR. I own a business and know that I would rather lose you as customer than anger 100 others whose business I may also lose.

That said, the only people who have a right to be so nasty towards children those folks who were born full grown.

How about "Neither"? I have no problem with the airline removing the family from the plane. But they shouldn't have charged them $900 to take a different flight. In conclusion, everyone sucks.

@bunnymare: Attention parents who think their little darlings can do no wrong -- stop breeding.

The airline is at fault here. I would sue.

@hunter3742: Why is this a bad thing? A sterling example of an airline serving the needs of the many at the expense of one person who can't control their kids.

We need family sections in restaurants and family only plans.

Granted, it's not hard for a 4 year old to open the buckle, but given that doing so absolutely would be a real safety risk later to the kid and anyone in the path of them being flung around like a 40lb bag of potatoes, in that case I actually do support the airline removing them.

Wiggling in a seat and being somewhat cranky would be one thing. That's reasonable behaviour - if not pleasant - for a 4 year old. But my 4 year old would bloody well stay in her seat if I barked at her to do it, and frankly, because I did enough barking when she was 2, she probably wouldn't undo the seatbelt and get up on her own anyway.

And to be clear, my 4 year old can be a horrid brat at times. But if she was being a brat in such a way that actually might get her or someone else hurt, I would remove us from the plant myself. No trip is worth injury.

As for the people here who like to bitch about anything any kid of any age does ever in any situation, suck it up and deal because kids do have a right to be on planes, in family restaurants, in G-rated movies, etc. And whining or crying isn't enough to get kicked off. This case had an actual safety problem.

Makes total sense.

@Scribblenerd: why curse society with 3 more idiots just because this guy's ignorant?

Without that kind of info, no one can form a valid opinion on this -- they'd just be projecting bias from previous known cases.

Next time hire the A-Team, for $1,000 they could have taken care of your kids with some milk.

@Scribblenerd: Agreed with you wholly. I think there are a lot of people who just need to grow up, accept that children are people too and have all the same rights as adults, and that a little bit of noise is only going to ruin your life if you yourself have the emotional maturity of a child.

I'm not saying the mother is a bad parent, since kids that young are often completely unpredictable, but she should have been prepared for both her kids acting up at once (I don't know how, I'm not a parent and I've never had to deal with kids, but when I was a kid my mom threw all sorts of things at me to keep me in my seat during train rides, like books, sketchbooks to draw in, gameboys, walkmen, etc). It's within the rights of the airlines to keep the majority of their customers happy, and if the children were being little hellions they have the right to kick the family off for the good of the rest of the passengers. HOWEVER, they should either pay for the next flight for the family or offer a refund if a refund is requested. I don't see why they wouldn't. The family paid for a service and no service was rendered. Give her her money back.

@winstonthorne: Attention all immature spoiled brats: Please do not breed!

@winstonthorne: luckily you shouldn't have to worry about this since i doubt you'll ever find anyone willing to breed with you. believe it or not, kids act up some times. i'm sure you did when you were growing up.

This is why the airline is wrong.

The mother was right to be booted from the flight, but she deserves to get on the next available flight without paying more money. As for a refund, she deserves one only because they tried to at first not even give her a credit.

Small claims court should be an easy way for her to get her money back. Policy is not law and they never flew her so they need to give her the money back.

I side with the mom on this one. They were already at their seats. Anyone who has ever flown knows that when people are boarding a plane, it can be kind of loud, and people are shuffling their luggage, opening and shutting the top hatches, they're talking, they're making phone calls - it can be chaotic. And this doesn't even include the noise from the engine of the plane. Imagine if you're very young, and you don't know what's going on - flying is stressful for adults and they understand they're about to be hurled through the air and hundreds of miles per hour.

Just because the boy wouldn't stay in his seat doesn't imply he was running wild on the plane. He could've been standing on the seat for all we know.

It doesn't seem like Allegiant Air ever gave her much of a chance. They kicked her off in a matter of minutes before the flight had even started, and everyone else was getting situated.

I want to hear a couple of reports from people on the plane to see how "unruly" the kids were, and an explanation for the type of "security issue" a four-year-old poses, and what they mean by "wouldn't stay is his seat."

Airlines need to provide guidelines for the level of behavior expected and not leave it up to the whim of a flight attendant.

Kids cry. Four-year-olds like to move. Grow up people, you're supposed to be the adult.

Why should an entire plane sit and wait for parents who can't control their kids?

@hunter3742:

You obviously don't have kids :) I wouldn't want to take my 2 and 4 yr old on a flight without my 2x parents. The problem for them is usually the 45 minutes sitting on the Tarmac. Letting people with parents board the plane first is probably the biggest mistake you could make.

"Keep your spawn in line"? Really? May you have triplets!

And may they all be just like you!

Luggage is only pulled on international flights.

But don't worry, you are limited to only 3 oz of liquids in your carry on luggage.

If it is done at the airline's choosing, apparently the TSA is ok with it. The luggage has to be removed in cases where the passenger chooses to take a different flight or misses theirs of their own will. This doesn't make sense to me, but it seems to be how it's done. I don't know what is correct in this case.

Good for Allegient. @Oranges w/ Cheese has 2 cats! ahahaha.:
Security Breach? Un-accompanied baggage is only a security breach where the traveler fails to accompany it voluntarily, not where they want to go and the *airline* kicks you off. Unless you think this was all an elaborate ruse ...

Why can't airlines and airports offer the parents of young children the ability the step off the plane for 5-10 minutes? Seems like a better alternative than just booting them off for usually short lived child issues. After that, if the kids can't be controlled, then they miss the flight.
For the record, I have no kids and really don't even like them, with no plans on having them.
Also, I liked how they called a roaming 4 year old a "security risk." Safety; yes, security; no.

the airline took the right action for the good of all other passengers, and potentially, the safety of the children.

if the parent can't keep their children under control enough to handle a flight quietly, drive.

@hunter3742: That's not the point. She didn't get to go where she needed to go, and they never told her that the next flight out was not at a time anywhere near the time of her scheduled departure.

Kids cry. She was trying to control her kids, and keep them calm. Allegiant Air didn't give her a chance to even make it work.

(Yes, I think that should do it nicely.)

Isn't this a very, very big security no-no? Isn't Allegient in a lot more trouble for this than they would be just for being giant a--hats?

If the airline feels like putting you off of your flight, they shouldn't make you pay more for the other flight.

And what kind of a security breach letting the luggage go without the passengers!

i love how they say "The airline says it's their policy not to offer refunds". how can they just claim that? maybe it's my policy not to pay for anything. all that being said there's got to be more to this unruliness to actually be removed from the plane. i've been pretty unruly myself and only been moved to another seat.

Control your kids in public, people.