Brett lives in upstate New York, and sent this letter to NY Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, copying Consumerist.
Dear Mr. Cuomo:
I am filing a formal complaint against EVT America for failure to respond to a glaring defect in a vehicle I purchased from them. This is despite several attempts on my part to discuss the matter directly with them, a judgment in my favor by the New York State Lemon Law process, and a demand letter from my personal lawyer.
A little over a year ago I purchased an all electric motor scooter from Miami-based EVT America via Oakland-Based dealer Electric Motosport. I purchased this vehicle because:
1. It is all electric which would allow me to save energy and be more "green."
2. It was the only all electric motor scooter at the time that claimed to have a speed of 40-45mph. There are multiple all electric scooters that have a maximum speed of 30mph, at which and below a motorcycle license is not required.
I purchased this scooter (model Z20b) over the internet from Electric Motor Sports and had it delivered to my home in March 2008. I completed the requirements for a motorcycle license in the state of New York and hold a current, valid license.
I discovered after riding the scooter for a couple months that its top speed is actually only 32mph, while at the same time the speedometer reads 45mph. I discovered this by having a car follow me, as well as roadside speed guns which say "your speed is ___."
After multiple attempts to get the dealer and EVT America to rectify this situation, I was told "you cannot send it back, you have already bought it." This prompted a successful petition to the New York State Lemon Law authority in which a hearing was held and judgment in my favor rendered. I have still heard nothing from EVT America, nor received my refund.
I have no further recourse except to spend more of my own money to recapture the $2800 I spent on the vehicle. This will take a lengthy legal process as the company is based in Miami, Florida not in New York State.
Please help.
The attorneys general of New York and Florida claim that they aren't able to help Brett collect on his judgment from EVT America, and have told him that he's on his own, and that it's time to hire a lawyer.
Have you had luck getting a refund from an unresponsive company, and do you have any advice for Brett?
RELATED:
What Is "Lemon Law?"
I have just worked in EV design, both large and small, human-carrying and not (one reason I was a technical inspector on the show BattleBots, because I knew my way around electronic speed controls for electric vehicles - some were 17-20hp, in a 350lb vehicle. Thats a better power/weight ratio than my (20yo) civic.
]]>Here are the email addresses on the website if any other purchasers feel mistreated and cheated:
On the page is says:
---------------------------------------------------
For information contact us at: info@evtamerica.com
For purchases contact us at: sales@evtamerica.com
For technical questions contact us at: support@evtamerica.com
For corporate financial issues contact us at: cfo@evtamerica.com
For our office in China contact us at: daisy@evtamerica.com
For our office in Brazil contact us at: bboldt@evtamerica.com
For our office in Europe contact us at: europe@evtamerica.com
]]>1. Looking at that thing, there's no WAY I'd want to go that fast on it (NOT safe!).
2. Looking at that thing, there's no WAY I'd've paid $2800 for it (it looks like it's worth less than a quarter of that).
3. Even ignoring the above, I would NOT purchase any vehicle, new or otherwise, unless I can SEE it in person BEFORE buying it.
I have sympathy for you on some levels, OP, but on many others I have to say you're the one who screwed up.
]]>That said, they ARE better than SUVs, say. Simply because they cart around less weight. But not less that EV versions within the same category.
Again, both you guys - AWEsome!
]]>@frodolives35: We need the cheap Chinese goods because no one can afford expensive 1st world items since corporations sent well paying US jobs somewhere else, like China...
]]>@cecilsaxon: I looked at these things on E-bay. I thought that they were actually very nice looking scooters but I also did another search on their quality and reliability and I didn't read anything good, so I decided not to buy one. IMO, if you want to buy a "scooter", but a real scooter in the range of 250cc but it'll cost you more also. It'll have more than enough power to handle a freeway and of course rural roads and small town streets. I think this guy wanted to save bucks.
]]>@H3ion: Ohhh that's good. Now mail fraud? heh heh heh,,,the bucket is getting deeper.
]]>You're on the right track, but a couple of your numbers need help - transmission loss of 25% is not common - the average efficiency of the grid is in the 90s. from Wikipedia:
"...Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 7.2% in 1995"
And the 20-25% efficiency of gas engines is a laboratory bench number. In real traffic, you're lucky to get even 15%. Contrast this with electric motors, which have real-world efficiency numbers in the 90s.
]]>By 'overwhelmingly', you mean 50%. That's how much electricity comes from coal (almost no electricity comes from oil anymore, it's too expensive.)
EVs are greener because they make less overall pollution. Lots less. Electric motors are over 90% efficient.
And fuel transportation happens in large part via wire (grid efficiency is about 95%.) Compare this to the equivalent step for your gas car: thousands of trucks visiting thousands of gas stations.
Plus - tons of electricity is used to refine gasoline today! So whatever pollution goes along with electricity is ALREADY added to your gasoline habit.
Here's a study:
[www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com]
actual study: [www.energy.ca.gov]
"...in a study conducted by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, EVs were significantly cleaner over the course of 100,000 miles than ICE cars. The electricity generation process produces less than 100 pounds of pollutants for EVs compared to 3000 pounds for ICE vehicles."
]]>Easy on the silly oil company talking points.
Nothing is 100% green. However, whatever pollution is caused by battery production (hardly any, by the way) pales in comparison to the pollution caused by mining, refining, and burning petroleum.
And the efficiency of transmitting power via the electric grid is about 95%. This efficiency compares quite favorably to the equivalent step for gasoline - TRUCKING it to thousands of service stations.
There's a good reason electricity for EVs costs just a penny or two per mile. It's efficiency.
]]>Exactly. It should read the correct speed if the rider is 100 or 150 pounds, so it should do so at 200 or 250 pounds as well, even if that speed is lower than it would otherwise be.
]]>As a national average, electricity comes from ~50% coal, ~20% each nuclear and natural gas, and ~10% hydro and other renewables. That means the overall carbon intensity of US electricity is about 60% what it would be for coal (or oil, since they are chemically similar enough in this regard) alone.
And yes, transmission & charging create loss- up to ~25% in some places. However, most power plants are 30-35% efficient at converting chemical energy in fossil fuels to electrical energy, whereas engines in vehicles are generally only 20-25% efficient. So even with the losses, centralized generation is more efficient. In addition, electric vehicles enjoy benefits shared by hybrid vehicles- regenerative braking, reduced noise, roughly uniform efficiency at low and high speeds, and instant startup.
The numbers are harder to find for pollutants other than CO2, but Trai_Dep has the right idea (below) with "Err, I'm unsure of YOUR moped, but mine lacks a $120m scrubber at the end of its exhaust pipe."
]]>Yes, squirrels are very energetic creatures. :-)
]]>Sorry, do the math or look up the numbers again. Even an electric vehicle powered entirely from a coal plant just about matches a Prius in terms of carbon emissions per mile, even after accounting for transmission and charging efficiency. 4-5 miles/kWh is typical for a car, not sure what a motorcycle would get. Embodied energy is pretty similar, too, though slightly higher for electric vehicles. Meanwhile, here in America, ~30% of our power comes from emissions-free sources (mainly nuclear and hydro), and another ~20% comes from natural gas (which is less CO2 intensive than coal).
Please, don't spread misinformation. Yes, there are certainly going to be places where inefficient dirty power plants and an ailing, ill-maintained, overstressed electric grid mean electric vehicles will pollute more than high-efficiency gas-powered ones. This is not the norm. It is a rare exception.
Moreover, consider that it is much easier and cheaper to reduce emissions, and pollution of all kinds, from large point sources than from many small mobile sources. Over time our electricity has been getting, and will continue to get, cleaner. A gas-powered vehicle has the same emissions profile its whole life, while an electric one gets better automatically as the grid gets cleaner.
]]>Plus it looks Italian, which I think is cool.
Cost: you could probably find a year-old one for $2,800.
]]>"Caveat Emptor"
]]>Well done, idiot.
]]>@DeeJayQueue: The OP said he lived in Upstate NY. If he lives in the Buffalo or surrounding area, his electric provider generates most of its power through hydri-electric plants on the Niagra River. If he is in the Rochester area, most of his electric power is generated by Nuclear at the Ginna Nuclear Power Plant [en.wikipedia.org]
Both of these technologies are very green
]]>@msquier: Solar, but yeah, unlikely that the OP will be installing a solar panel simply o charge his scooter.
]]>Although, obviously, there's no free lunch here. But one is a bit more affordable.
]]>...Or you're of the mind that corporations should be able to commit these kinds of frauds with no fear?
]]>@Difdi: If it is only $2800, wouldn't small claims court be a good way to get a judgement?
]]>@Dondegroovily: Take it easy on the sleze ;)
]]>@Trai_Dep:
Usually what you see from them looks like they are DJs, particularly with regard to actual (dare I say practical) application of law to any specific situation. Usually all I see is a C game, at best, brought to the field here (and thus completes my comment with an obligatory football analogy!).
Online commerce would meet that "solicitation of business through promotional material" metric of the second case.
]]>Why silence him? Let the idiocy shine!
]]>1. In my state you have to have a vehicle in for service multiple times for the same problem within a certain period of time to qualify as a lemon. This scooter was merely not as advertised. There is probably a limiter on it somewhere that keeps it from exceeding 32 mph.
2. You paid $2800 for that??? You must have stupid written all over your face. $2800 will get you a 250cc scooter that will go 50 or 60 mph AND get over 70 mpg. And you will actually be able to get out of the way faster if necessary. You are a sucker to pay $2800 for some Chinese built piece of crap scooter when you could have bought a perfectly good used Honda for practically the same price.
3. The point about your weight is legitimate. If you are too heavy then it will impair the weak sauce electric motor from going the top speed. Maybe you are just too big to ride that little toy around and should explore getting a real scooter. You could have gotten a Metropolitan that goes faster than that and probably is just as green. Considering that electricity doesn't grow on trees and the manufacturing of the power for your scooter probably is equally harmful to the environment than what a little scooter actually produces, you really are looking at apples and apples. Use the excuse of going green when you buy an electric H2 or something, but not when you buy a scooter. Lame.
]]>Like my Mini cooper, this baby just stops recording when you floor past 25mph.
]]>@MumblesFumbles: I see your point, but even if it were carrying more weight than it were designed to, wouldn't the speedometer still reflect the actual speed that the vehicle is going?
]]>@Crim Law Geek: Rendering an opinion ("there is nexus") and then claiming it's not legal advice is a dangerous road to go down, as you will find out when you pass the bar somewhere.
fantomesq is nominally correct in that you can get a judgment in one state enforced in another in many cases, but it ain't easy. The OP should talk to a collections attorney.
]]>It is not the OP's fault that the company made unrealistic but believable claims about their product. The OP's failure to research his purchase doesn't excuse their bad act.
]]>Why does China have favored trade status. The high % of crap they export to us has got to end. Its a shame the have us by the short hairs by owning so much US debt. I guess I just answered my own question.
]]>A cursory examination of the EVT "America" website would have told this guy that the scooter is made in China.
CHINA , DUMBASS !!
Anyone who has ever owned a scooter or small motorcycle could have told him that his little two wheeled Goremobile probably wouldn't make it out of the 90 day warranty period without problems.( Not reaching a safe 40-45 MPH to keep up with traffic is a BIG problem).
I have owned probably 10 scooters over the years and its pretty common knowledge that Chinese products are unsafe ,unreliable and unsupported from the manufacturer. They are mostly (poor) knockoffs of successful Japanese designs that are built down to a price to be sold to impulse price shoppers. He deserves what he got and I hope the NY AG has better things to do than try to nail the postal drop box "sales office " to the wall on this.
It's the damn OP's fault.
]]>" The first subparagraph of subdivision (a) provides for long arm jurisdiction if defendant "transacts any business within the state." This has been construed literally so that defendant or his agent must have been physically present in the state at some relevant time (Kramer v. Vogl, 17 NY 2d 27). Shipment of goods plus other general activities in the state such as solicitation of business through promotional material can suffice and these other contacts need have no direct connection to the cause of action arising out of the particular shipment (Singer v. Walker, 15 NY 2d 443). "
It seems that simply shipping a good to NY, without more, is insufficient to establish personal jurisdiction.
]]>Selling a bike to someone who lives in NY is a contract to "supply goods or services" in New York, thus giving NY Courts jurisdiction.
This is also not legal advice.
]]>Easy solution - check with the Sheriff's department in Miami and find out if you have anything they can act on. I should also note that it is YOUR job, not the Sheriff's to determine what property you are seeking them to seize.
My comments were not intended as legal advice but simply a course of action that could be pursued to attempt to collect your judgment.
]]>There was a car company (can't recall which) that sometime in the last decade got in big legal trouble for the fact their speedometers were off and as such they showed more miles on the odometer than had actually been traveled. They were sued for bilking customers out of their full warranty coverage (if you've only gone 33K but the odometer says you've gone 36K and your warranty was for 36K you see the problem). Ended up having to extend the warranty and repay out of warranty repairs if I recall correctly.
]]>Yup, because every energy source on the planet has the same efficiency and carbon footprint.
No, that's true it doesn't. And not every fuel source comes from turrists.
However, overwhelmingly electricity comes from very dirty sources, both morally and environmentally. If it's not petroleum it's coal. In the US there aren't many Nuclear, Hydroelectric, solar or wind farms. Not nearly as many as in other countries, and almost none measured by landmass.
So, saying electric vehicles are greener simply because they don't directly burn gasoline pretty ridiculous on its face, and when you compare the costs of generation and transportation and time to re"fuel" an electric vehicle to, say, a comparable motorcycle or motorscooter which gets well over 100mpg, it makes you look just as silly as you're trying to make the previous commenter look.
]]>Your $900 150cc scooter will likely be a $900 lesson learned when the frame welds break and the engine parts start wearing out from poor assembly. The company I used to work for would have to spend an extra couple hours fixing various manufacturing flaws when they uncrated a new scooter.
]]>But it's true - never take legal advice over the internet. Too many differences between the states.
]]>I suppose I didn't fully explain the foreign judgment comment. In some (many? all?) states, you can take a judgment awarded in NY and file it as a foreign judgment in FL. Once you do that, you can use the FL courts (and their law enforcement) to collect on that judgment. The process varies state-to-state and some states allow the other party to be heard before they will grant/certify a foreign judgment.
]]>@Esquire99: It is not a foreign judgment it (may be I don't see OP mentioning the arbitration or $250 filing fee for the NY AGO Lemon Law Arbitration) as the dealer was in Miami and thus no nexus, so not subject to the NY AGO's arbitration.
If fantomesq is giving legal advice he is simply wrong.
This is not legal nor tax advice. If you need legal or tax advice seek a competent professional in your locale.
]]>1. It is all electric which would allow me to save energy and be more "green."
Out of sight, out of mind, right? Where does he think electricity comes from? In all likelihood, something is being burned.
]]>Basically my point is that if you want green and fast, go down to your local motorcycle dealer and check out the selection of small motorcycles and scooters that can actually hit highway speeds.
Remember, it takes emissions to create electricity too!
]]>However, if the speedometer says the OP is going 45 MPH, he damned well ought to be going 45 MPH.
]]>Isn't it against the law to have an inaccurate spedometer?
]]>@lockdog: Sounds like the cyclists in my city.
]]>BTW: A "squid" is a sportbiker term for a young, inexperienced rider often on a bike with too much power for their experience level (above 600cc on an ultra light sport bike) doing stupid things to show off. Most sportbikes get wrecked pretty quickly when a newb gets a hold of one. My husband rides a 250cc Kawasaki Ninja and he says, from an experienced rider's standpoint, that it has plenty of power for highway travel.
]]>This happened to Dell.... kinda.
]]>No, in fact, it is quite different.
The numbers on those amps or speakers, 1-10 or 1-11, are dimensionless- they arbitrarily cover a number of decibels from some unnamed minimum to some unnamed maximum.
The numbers on this spedometer have units, mph. An inaccurate spedometer is not just inconvenient; can be dangerous. Consider, too, that many highways have a minimum speed limit higher than 32mph, but less than 45 mph. Even if he didn't care that it takes him longer to get places at 30mph than it would at 45, it certainly will matter when he is in a rush, or, in an emergency, needs to speed up and finds out he can't.
]]>You might want to finish that law degree before giving out legal advice.
]]>Here's hoping they sue Consumerist for this posting, so their #1 Google hit will be this story, or Cash4Golding, as I prefer to call it.
]]>Its kinda like the amplifiers that only go up to 10 instead of 11.
]]>