var json_comments = new Array("

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thompson

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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That really sucks for the OP, and I don't think they should be stripping out the CC from rental releases... on the other hand, hasn't this been going on for a little while? I mean, it seems to kind of make sense -- it's the only way they'll get some people to buy DVDs instead of just rent them.

Still though, no CC? That's not really a \"bonus feature\"... stupid Disney.

10 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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For the record, I firmly agree that the deaf and hard of hearing have a reasonable expectation of getting CC or subtitles on this DVD.

On the other hand, all other \"special features\" on a DVD are totally worthless to me. Any time I've ever bothered to look at any of them, 30 seconds later I remember why I never look at any of them. They're crap. And if any dollar of the purchase price is allocated towards funding those special features, I want that dollar back.

I might be tempted to pay more for a DVD without said special features just to spite the dopes that put them on there.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@YouDidWhatNow?: 95% of the time I agree with you - special features are garbage.

Pixar is one of the few exceptions, in my mind. Special features include the short that was screened with the theatrical release and a lot of actually interesting behind-the-scenes stuff. I haven't listened to their commentary tracks, but I think they have a chance of actually being interesting.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@YouDidWhatNow?: I love special features but I have to agree with you. They've become so oversaturated. Do you really need a behind the scenes making of with interviews with the entire crew on a bubblegum romantic comedy? No. Others like the Matrix and the Lord of the Rings are totally deserving of their disk space.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@YardanCabaret: And in the case of Pixar, they're usually in the latter category, from what I've found.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I really do understand them trying to get people to buy the \"bonus\" stuff, but there are some things that don't count as bonus.

Epic fail.

Though, as a note, my mom is an interpreter for the deaf and we have a deaf foster bro (adult now) who was over to visit for the holidays. We \"rented\" an on demand view movie from cable company and there was no subtitles or closed captioning available in any form. It always gets her dander up.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Jabberkaty: I don't want to derail the discussion here, but I keep seeing variations of this all over the place (not just here at Consumerist, but other sites as well):

Fail. EPIC FAIL.

Is this from a video game or something? Or a movie I haven't seen? I'm not that old (in my 40s) but I just don't get the reference.

Thanks.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@mamalicious: Epic Fail is just one of those good ole internet Memes. Like pictures of squirrels with oversized scrotum.

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witeowl

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@witeowl: Thanks! Funny video!!

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jacques

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@mamalicious: I think you'll find what you seek at the Fail Blog.

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nybiker

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@jacques: I don't know if you are trying to say that Disney Failed by including the this story with your url, but the actual site is at [failblog.org]

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I'm Hard-of-hearing and NOW is the time to update the ADA(American's with Disability Act). DVDs, and online video should be required. This has gone on too long. Because I have a disability, I have to pay MORE? There should be action taken to enable CC on any media if you sell to public and your company is a certain size.

We HEAR with our EYES!!

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OmniZero

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@FrugalFreak: EXACTLY what I was thinking. I believe the ACLU or someone like that is going to sue, because with this version, they are excluding the entire Hard-of-hearing and Deaf community. Isn't that a violation of the ADA right there?

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@thompson: @thompson: Yeah, Fox has been stripping out the bonus features from rental DVDs for a while. But even they weren't clueless enough to think that *captioning* is a bonus feature; at least their rental DVDs still have that.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@thompson: The consumer problem here isn't with making a different DVD for the rental market. That's to be expected. The problem is with labeling captions as a bonus feature.

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Trai_Dep

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Laura Northrup: I'm hopefully optimistic that, by next week, once someone at Disney sees that some Brainiac burrowed into the depths of their marketing division decided that hearing-impaired fans should be so cruelly abandoned from these channels, they'll make amends.
It flies so far away from what both Pixar and Disney should be about that I have to think this is some horrible mistake.
Although I hope whoever signed off on this decision is stripped of authority to make future decisions... This is SO tone-deaf (ha!) and wrong.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Trai_Dep: What makes this particularly bad is that every DVD from Pixar since Finding Nemo has had everything on the disc, except for the trailers, subtitled. This includes making-of featurettes, deleted scenes, and even audio commentaries (the captioning of which is still somewhat of a rarity on DVDs).

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Rectilinear Propagation

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: I always thought it was cool of them to recognize that the deaf and hard of hearing might like the extra features too. It'd be nice if others followed suit instead of going in the opposite direction.

","","

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Is it possible that the disk has the CC track on it so that at least the television's captioning feature can pick it up? 99% of the time I don't even use the DVD's CC feature because my television will display the captions on their own anyway.

9 replies

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kbrook

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@BrawlerBarbie: I actually prefer subtitles to captions - they don't interfere quite so much with the visuals. (I started turning on the captions for my grandma - she turns the TV up to migraine-inducing levels without them - not because I have hearing difficulties, so YMMV.)

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kaceetheconsumer

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@BrawlerBarbie: For some stupid reason, our combo DVD/VCR doesn't translate any CC any more unless it's in the form of subtitles accessible by menu on the disc. The VCR portion used to transmit the CC to the TV when we had an older TV, but the HDMI cable to the new HD TV seems to somehow edit the CC out.

Since I actually have a hearing problem, this sucks big time...I can no longer record to VCR and still get CC, and any disc that doesn't put it on the menu is also CC-less.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@kaceetheconsumer: That's by design-- HDMI can't carry Line 21. You need to use component cables for that.

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kaceetheconsumer

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: Okay forgive my ignorance...but if I used a component cable would we then get getting the pseudo-HD quality picture? Are component cables the ones with the white/yellow/red plugs?

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@kaceetheconsumer: Those will work too, but I was referring to the ones with red/green/blue plugs, which give a slightly higher quality picture than the yellow plug. It still won't be HD-upconverted, though.

You can actually have *both* plugged in-- use the HDMI for upconverting on DVDs with subtitles, and the component jacks for NTSC playback on DVDs with only captions.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: Component vs. composite (the single \"yellow plug\") gives you a VASTLY better picture. In some cases HDMI is a little better, and it has the advantage of digital transport so it should be more resistant to RF interference and noise, but component offers real HD quality. Some hardware implementations of HDMI suck enough to make component video actually look better by comparison, and if you want to do things like high-def video captures of gameplay for console games, component is the way to go because you don't have to deal with HDCP.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@GearheadGeek: However, in order to get line 21 captioning over component cables, you have to set the player to 480i. The overscan area doesn't exist in 480p, much less 720p.

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scoosdad

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: Whether a display will decode line 21 closed captioning encoded with the video is entirely a function of how the manufacturer implements their hardware, not whether the signal is coming in via HDMI, component, or other.

My Samsung HDTV does not decode line 21 captioning on anything other than the straight RF inputs from cable or an antenna. If CCs on line 21 come in on any of the video inputs (component, video, svideo, HDMI), they won't show up. So it's not a given that captions will work if you hook up component instead of using HDMI, it depends on the set.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@scoosdad: Your advice is incorrect. HDMI cables block Line 21 captions, full stop. There is no workaround.

Whether anything else in the stream from player to display blocks or simply fails to decode Line 21 captioning is a separate question.

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scoosdad

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Joe Clark: Where did I say anything about a workaround? My point was that it didn't depend on what kind of cable you used to connect the DVD player, it depended on how the manufacturer decided to implement the decoding of line 21 captions in your TV set.

I didn't say it would or would not work with HDMI. I knew it wouldn't. I was pointing out that someone else who said, \"hook it up with component, then it will work\" may be giving inaccurate advice. Depending on the TV, YMMV.

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CmdX

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Joe Clark: Lets be clear here. The CABLES don't BLOCK anything. The HDMI SPEC says that it isn't passed through

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kaceetheconsumer

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: I thought my husband said it was either/or when he set it up, but I'll copy and paste this info to him.

I care about HD-like quality for some movies and shows, but on some others I care less and need the CC, so an option would be awesome.

Thank you for the info!

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ludwigk

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@BrawlerBarbie: What kind of DVDs are you watching? Relatively old TV shows that are now out on DVD? For closed captions to be part of the Up DVD, the video master that they used would have had to have at some point been a broadcast TV source video, or a video intended for TV broadcast, with the extra lines of video in each frame devoted to the CC encoded text. From a DVD mastering perspective, this is undesirable for quality reasons, and would usually only be done because some sort of master was not available.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@ludwigk: Not true. I work for a captioning company and we create captions for new movies all the time as well as creating new caption streams for older movies and TV shows.

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dailyWAV

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@SchuylerH: and it was the same back in the early 90s when I was a closed-captions editor. We did new shows and films, and a lot of older films doing a new release. I thought the CCing of all films released to video (regardless of format) was a requirement of the various Telecommunications Acts in the 90s (I think 93 and 95), plus Section 508/ADA requirements.

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zentec

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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For NTSC DVDs, there are no extra lines of video devoted to closed captioning. It uses line 21, and line 21 is there whether closed captioning is used or not.

If it's a Blu-Ray, the captioning is part of the MPEG stream and adds practically no overhead to the encoding process.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@ludwigk: I'm watching DVDs of new releases, and haven't bothered with attempting to watch \"UP.\" After this revelation, though, I won't bother -- I don't love any movie enough to watch it more than once a year, and don't have any children to demand that much play. My TV catches CC on DVDs, making it annoying to even bother with the ones provided on the disk. Once in a while a movie will surface that doesn't have any the TV can pick up, which is fine, because those movies have English subtitles.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@BrawlerBarbie: Try checking out local rental shops, if there are any around-- they often get their DVDs through alternate suppliers.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@BrawlerBarbie: Nope. I have my TV set to display CC by default. None on the Netflix disc.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@BrawlerBarbie: (And in case you think it might be a case of my DVD player being misconfigured, I also checked out Animaniacs-- which only has TV-decoded CC, not subtitles-- and it worked fine.)

","","","","

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Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I don't consider CC/Subtitles to be a \"bonus feature\" - if one can't watch the movie without them, then its not a bonus! I have to have one or the other to watch movies and its annoying enough to find a movie I really like in a rental store only to discover its not captioned/subtitled but its even worse to get one that SAYS it is, then come home and find out it really isn't. There are a lot of movies I'd pay to rent, but don't like enough that I'd want to own them, and if I HAVE to buy the DVD just to watch it, the studios that do this will find they're going to lose a lot of customers. This is disappointing, especially coming from Disney.

2 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Whiskey Tango Foxtrot: Yeah, I was particularly surprised at this, because Disney has been very good about subtitling not just the movie but even the bonus features and commentaries on DVDs released in the past couple years. And even longer on Pixar's films-- Finding Nemo had its commentaries subtitled.

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TVarmy

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Whiskey Tango Foxtrot: Agreed. I really hope Disney just forgot to include them when they were making the master, rather than intentionally. After all, closed captions are very small, and aren't worth much to people who don't need them.

","

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Sucks for me. I keep the volume low with the CC on so I don't keep my wife awake while I watch TV. Guess I won't be seeing this movie, then.

I certainly won't be buying the DVD just so i can get captions.

Idiots. I feel like pirating the thing... not to watch, just to seed.

7 replies

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kaceetheconsumer

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Cameraman: I have a hearing problem that isn't deafness, but enough that I either have to have certain shows very loud (if they have predominantly male voices with low-note background music) or I use CC/subtitles. Plus it was useful to have CC on when I used to nurse to kid to sleep on my lap for afternoon naps and watch TV while she slept.

So I'm with you...this is stupid and eliminates audience.

@morlo: Headphones wouldn't help me with my problem distinguishing male voices from low background music, and even for the times when I can hear but use CC so I can keep the volume low, headphones would prevent me from hearing if my napping kid has woken or needs me.

The *last* thing I need is to not hear her wake up and come downstairs while I'm watching something violent or otherwise highly non-child-safe.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@kaceetheconsumer: My issue is an auditory processing disorder which is neurological in nature, and even using headphones doesn't clear up the dialogue when certain kinds of ambient noise or background music are present. So yeah.

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kaceetheconsumer

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: You have my sympathies. My problem is actually my jaw putting pressure on my ears, so some days (especially during allergy season) it's like listening through water. So low sounds all get muddled together.

It's why I can watch Daily Show and Colbert at a low volume, because they don't have background music, but police procedurals are really hard for me without loud volume or CC.

So I can imagine that having the problem extend beyond that would be a royal pain in the ass all the time!

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RodAox

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Cameraman: yeah....this is why this industry will tank... people put in their time to actually make subtitles, translate and edit movies, tv shows, magazines....FOR FREE....disney with their huge earnings is using this as a money trap....good going disney

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morlo

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Cameraman: I think you should consider headphones. Sound is pretty important in film

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Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!)

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Cameraman: I use them a lot too now that we have the baby; that way I can watch something while he's squealing and chatting and read crucial dialogue he happens to \"talk\" over.

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November 18, 2009 4:53 PM

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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): We have CC on all the time, one of the reasons is the one you mentioned. It only gets better.

For example;

\"And we know who the murderer was and what the motive was. It was her MOMMY! I'm thirsty! Can you get me something to drink!? and that's why she was targeted.\"

The CC along the bottom also helps the munchkin to learn to identify letters and read when he watches a kid show or movie.

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kaceetheconsumer

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): Also useful for when your nursling only naps on your lap...you can watch at low volume while they snooze. :D

","

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Disgusted. This hard-of-hearing customer is flat-out disgusted.

Bad enough that more and more video delivery options are released without captions or subtitles; just see the song-and-dance Netflix gives you as the reason their streaming videos aren't accessible to the deaf and hard of hearing.

But to claim captions are \"bonus features\" not worthy of inclusion in a rental disk? Appalling.

Earth To Disney: accessibility is critical, not optional. I.e., this affluent and doting grandmother just crossed your products off my Christmas gift list, on principle.

11 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@organizedhome: Good on you! I agree that it's mission-critical.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@organizedhome:

I approve of this message.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@organizedhome: I completely agree that it is idiotic and unfair that these DVD's have been stripped of their CC content. That being said, I read the article you linked to concerning Netflix CC policies. I think you need to be patient and fair with your criticism.

Their site clearly explains that CC content will be available within a year. I wouldn't call that a 'song and dance' I'd call that a 'we'll have it for you in a year.

Also keep in mind that Netflix isn't the bad guy here, Disney is. Stay focused!

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cluberti

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@synimatik: Netflix's song and dance about SAMI and not having it available is a huge crock and they know it - Silverlight *does* have this functionality available (even though they try to blame Microsoft and Silverlight), and also hinting that they'll basically get to CE devices when Microsoft gets around to working with them is also crap. They're trying to blame Microsoft and a lack of storage space for their decisions to not spend the money to make it happen, and they're really only being honest 50% of the statement. Storage isn't cheap at the volumes they'd need, but they aren't going to spend it until a loud enough complaint or complaints are aired, pure and simple, otherwise they'd have done this already.

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Rob

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@organizedhome: I would have to disagree with you here about Netflix being in the wrong, the article clearly indicates that they are working on it and gives an estimated time line of one year. The fact they offer a large streaming library online is nice, not to mention they offer it for no additional charge. For them its a newer service that they are working on, they are also using Silverlight which is newer as well and they also need to find a way to make sure the devices will also be able to display the captions.

Closed Captions on traditional media like DVDs is a no-brainier though.

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johnva

November 18, 2009 4:53 PM

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@Rob: They've also apparently been making the claim that it would be coming \"soon\" for a number of years now.

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kaceetheconsumer

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@organizedhome: Totally agreed. They'll stick an exec on a plane to take an advance copy of Up to a kid dying in a hospital, but now they've pretty much told a bunch of deaf kids to bugger off. That tells me that the \"concern\" they displayed was purely for its market potential (and it worked, I saw it mentioned all over the place) and they don't really give a rat's ass about the disabled and/or ill communities.

And here I was thinking that it was just the British stuff I've been getting from the library lately that was without CC...I thought there were at least soft regulation requirements about it for US DVDs. I guess I was wrong.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@organizedhome: You have grounds for an Americans with Disabilities Act lawsuit.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@organizedhome: Hear, hear! I was thinking of suggesting to my grandmother that she rent Up, since I really think she'd enjoy it. As she is 88 years old she sometimes likes to put the CC on her movies, so she can understand what everybody is saying. For a company that purports to be as family-friendly as Disney does, I am outraged that they don't consider hearing impaired people to be worthwhile customers.
I had suggested my mom buy me Up on DVD for Christmas this year, I may take that suggestion back.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@kerry: The protagonist of the movie is a 78-year-old who wears hearing aids. The irony's so thick you can cut it with a knife.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: Bonus points for being the first to remember that.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@organizedhome:

Well Spoken!

","

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I can't understand how that decision could not run afoul of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Seems to me you'd have to have accessibility features on all versions of a DVD you'd be releasing...

6 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@StrangeTikiGod: Unfortunately, DVDs aren't actually covered under the ADA, so far as I know.

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dailyWAV

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: To me, that's kind of a poor excuse. From the Telecommunications Act of 96:
\"The U.S. Congress included television captioning requirements in the Telecommunications Act of 1996. The Act requires that video programming be closed captioned, regardless of distribution technology (i.e., broadcast, cable, satellite), to ensure access for persons who are deaf or hard of hearing.\" Perhaps it's just me, but DVD sales would just be another distribution mechanism... And the film must be captioned before it can air on any broadcast medium. The various captioning companies get new movies during the post-production/mass-production phase - i.e., the CCing has to be done prior to the final production master so the data can be encoded on line 21.

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billy

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@dailyWAV: That act is a creature of the FCC. The FCC doesn't regulate DVDs. That part of the Act which talks about \"distribution technology\" is, obviously, only the ones the FCC regulates.

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cluberti

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@billy: It would be interesting to see if the courts would take this up though, as it would seem that Disney did go out of their way to remove the CC from the rental version specifically. Therefore, it would stand to reason that if someone who was hard of hearing or deaf wanted to watch the movie they would *have* to purchase the retail copy at significant financial difference from the rental version to get the features they would actually *need* to watch the video (my mother-in-law is hard of hearing and my son is deaf, and we rented this and couldn't watch it due to this). This would potentially run afoul of the ADA's provisions on reasonable access, considering what had to be done to specifically remove it with no viable reason I can think of other than to charge more for it. It would be interesting indeed if this found itself in a courtroom.

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P=mv

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: Unfortunately, DVDs aren't actually covered under the ADA, so far as I know.

I don't think they are either. Though I am not hearing impaired and no one I know is, I have use for english subtitles and only about half of my retail purchased DVDs have that feature.

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thompson

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@StrangeTikiGod: I'm actually really curious if this would be the case. The courts have held all sorts of weird things to be \"public accommodations\" that at first blush you wouldn't think would come under the scope of the ADA.

On the other hand, even if it did, I think that Disney could have a case that there isn't a restriction to the ready enjoyment of the film, as the full retail version is available for purchase in any number of stores (and thus, those who are hard of hearing can access the CC version).

Still, I think it's a remarkably close call on both issues and would be fascinating to see litigated.

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TCama

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@thompson: I think codeman38 (who I suspect is the original LJ user who posted about this) is right. It seems like the only thing the government can really regulate in the entertainment business is information that's broadcast over public airwaves.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@TCama: Yep, I am indeed the same codeman38. :)

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Spider Jerusalem

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@thompson: I think your counterargument would fall flat because it poses undue financial hardship to people with disabilities, and because Disney had to take extraordinary steps to remove the closed captioning from one version when their primary version has it.

That is, if it were to come up in court in the first place. Which it probably won't. Although I'd be tempted to try. I knew enough foreign exchange students in college that would rent movies just to watch them with the English subtitles.

","","

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Romberry

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I'm going top second StrangeTikiGod on this one. I expect that this decision runs afoul of the ADA and is a decision that was poor vetted and which will be reconsidered now that it's been brought to light.

","

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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CC issues aside, I'd almost rather buy the \"no frills\" versions of some of these movies than the retail copy. There was some movie I got recently (can't remember what) that had almost a full minute of menu garbage before I was able to select play. I'll pay to not have that...

6 replies

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j-o-h-n

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Donathius: Hear, hear!
People who make DVDs - STOP THAT SHIT!

No ads, no trailers, no flying around garbage before the play menu works!!!!

When I put in my DVD, I want the damn play button right away. Someday, I'll get bored and wander around the rest of the disk, but nobody needs to see that crap up front every time they put the disc in! It just PISSES US OFF!

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Donathius: Except this edition had a 5 minute shill from Pixar for the good version and 20 minutes of previews that you couldn't skip, at least I couldn't on my dvd player.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Donathius: Good lord, I know how you feel. It's especially painful with TV show boxed sets; I bought myself the Avatar: The Last Airbender DVDs, and Nickelodeon thought fit to include something like 3 minutes of commercials at the beginning of EACH DISK.

There are 15 disks in the set. D:<

Luckily, they're skippable. Frustratingly, they're each divided up into about three parts. So \"load...skip. Load...skip. Load...skip.\" THEN the DVD starts playing. It's completely ridiculous. NO I DO NOT WANT SPONGEBOB SQUAREPANTS ON DVD STOP ASKING ME.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@AlexDitto: I've seen even worse. Some of Funimation's anime DVDs have previews that are *unskippable*.

...Yeah. >_<

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: Oh good God. I definitely think that counts as \"cruel and unusual punishment.\"

And, knowing Funimation, the DVD cost 80 dollars and had two episodes on it. Woo! D:<

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lim

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: They have trained me to put the disc in, push play, leave to make popcorn/use the bathroom/do dishes/vacuum/take the dog out, THEN come back in to watch.

The thing is, I will otherwise seek out previews and trailers. Oh, and by the way, ads are not a bonus feature. No. Stop telling me they are.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Donathius: Oh, the Up rental DVD still has about 10 minutes of trailers before the movie. At least they're fast-forwardable...

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morlo

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Donathius: The pirated version usually strip that crap out, but unfortunately you won't be able to pay.

","

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I loved Slumdog Millionaire when I saw it in the theaters. As a fan of Danny Boyle's other movies, I really wanted to hear the commentary and see some of the special features, so I headed to Blockbuster to get the disc. Just as with Up, this was a bare-bones version with no features at all. When I tried to get a refund from Blockbuster, the store manager played the \"blame the consumer\" game and refused a refund. Okay, yes, technically it was my fault because I did not read the fine print on the carton. But I don't read all the DVD rental industry trade magazines, and I had no idea that these bare-bones versions existed. Eventually I just bought a new copy off Amazon, which is probably what the studio wanted all along. And that was one of the last straws in canceling my Blockbuster membership. I don't know if Netflix also ships the same versions, but at least I can just send it back instead of being out $5 for the rental.

3 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@liz.lemonade: At least Fox actually identifies their rental DVDs as bare-bones versions. Disney didn't even do that with Up; the DVD case at Blockbuster had the [SDH] icon on the back and mentioned having two additional short films, and none of that was on the actual disc.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@liz.lemonade: And yes, I actually confirmed this at Blockbuster by having them test the DVD in store. The disc in a brick-and-mortar Blockbuster store was the same version I got from Netflix.

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pecan 3.14159265

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@liz.lemonade: Netflix usually carries the retail edition of most films but if they are the bare bones discs sometimes there's a second disc of special features.

","","","","

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H3ion

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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ADA. ADA. ADA.

3 replies

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Cant_stop_the_rock

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Not applicable. Not applicable. Not applicable.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Cant_stop_the_rock: How so? Deafness is not a covered disability?

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@MikeM_inMD: DVD's aren't a covered category.

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cluberti

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Coles_Law: It would be interesting to try though, considering Disney had to actually produce a run without the CC line 21 data. Selling closed-captioning as a feature could potentially run afoul of other portions of the ADA - it would be interesting to see it brought in front of a judge, although a loud outcry to elected representatives to get the ADA modified would probably be the best option. While it's not currently illegal to do this, it's pretty shady and Disney doing it surprises me a little (not a lot, but a little).

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@H3ion:
NOW. NOW. NOW

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Rip the DVD if you live in a place where it's legal, and then download the subs from a subtitles site, you know, if you reside in a place where that's legal, too.

If you live in a place where either of the options isn't legal, then you'd be breaking some sort of obscure, hard to enforce law if you were to follow my advice.

4 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@balthisar: Or even if it's not legal. Power to the people.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@lannister80: If you own the DVD, then you own a license to the video. Download a divx version from the internet with a subs file. It might be illegal for the person who has it to upload it to you, but it's not illegal for you to download it, as you already have licensed the content. The MPAA has been arguing for years that you don't own a video, you've merely licensed it for use. It's about time that gets used against them.

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johnva

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@AirIntake: You don't even have to download the video itself. There is software (such as the aforementioned VLC) that can mux the subtitles/captions into an existing video stream. All that you would need to do is download the captions.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@balthisar: Alas, I already returned the disc to Netflix; in retrospect, I should've just downloaded the subtitle script and synced it with VLC.

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johnva

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: Yes, the Internet provides when corporations fail.

","","

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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\"apparently they saw SDH [subtitles for the deaf and hard of hearing] as a special feature.\"

Sounds like a special lawsuit too.

","","

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dognose

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I don't give a crap about the bonus features of most DVD's.. But, I really don't see why they don't include CC.

","

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Disney announcing that this was an \"unintended error\" in 3... 2... 1...

1 replies

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Trai_Dep

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@twophrasebark: In this case, I'm sure it was. Not in the sense that some ignorant gnome working there didn't make this incredibly bad call, but that Mother Ship approves.
It's so mind-bogglingly contrary to Disney & Pixar values, besides being a PR and marketing train wreck that I'm sure there'll be pronounced scrambling to fix this.

...I'm unsure if this will impact the discs already out in the pipeline, however. Or even current titles (although I'd hope they recall them, obviously).

","

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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It should be a legal requirement to provide captions. I can understand wanting to strip out the other things (although this is pathetic and cheap), but captions should be a requirement.

3 replies

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dailyWAV

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Mackinstyle: I believe it IS a legal requirement.
From The FCC, closed captioning rules
(a few exerpts)
\"Section 79.1 Closed captioning of video programming.

(a) Definitions. For purposes of this section the following definitions shall apply: ...(snip)

(3) Video programming provider. Any video programming distributor and any other entity that provides video programming that is intended for distribution to residential households including, but not limited to broadcast or nonbroadcast television network and the owners of such programming.

(4) Closed captioning. The visual display of the audio portion of video programming contained in line 21 of the vertical blanking interval (VBI) pursuant to the technical specifications set forth in Section 15.119 of this chapter or the equivalent thereof.

(5) New programming. Video programming that is first published or exhibited on or after January 1, 1998.

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billy

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@dailyWAV: DVD makers/distributors don't fall under \"video programming provider\" nor does the FCC regulate DVDs.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Mackinstyle: Or, at the absolute minimum, it should be a legal requirement to make captioned copies available at no additional cost to the end user. For example, Blockbuster could order 10 bare-bones copies and 2 captioned copies for special request, if Disney is so determined to strip every extra feature from their rental editions.

","","

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I appreciate subtitles for all my movies, even though I don't always use them. Nothing's worse than not understanding dialogue and having no easy way to figure out \"What the hell did he say? Bell peppers? Ball poppers?\"

I also use subtitles when I watch an English language movie with my friend who isn't a native speaker. It ruins a few jokes with the timing, but at least we can both understand the movie even if they talk Southern or New York or Spanglish or Minnesotan.

They are also great for understanding what's going on when you listen to the commentary track.

5 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@RandomHookup: Pixar's particularly wonderful (well, except for Up) because, on discs that have commentaries, even the commentaries have a subtitle track. So you can listen to the commentary while watching the movie with subtitles. Or listen to the movie and read the commentary. Or listen to the commentary while reading it.

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Trai_Dep

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@RandomHookup: Yup. Try watching any movie featuring Cockney accents with ESL friends to see how valuable CC is. :)

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nybiker

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Trai_Dep: This past weekend I tried to watch Twelfth Night and gave up after 30 minutes. No subtitles, no CC. I couldn't understand most of it. Maybe I should go back and read the story. That way, at least, the closed captioning is right in front of me.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@nybiker: Oh, gah, was that the version with Ben Kingsley and Helena Bonham Carter? That was put out by Image Entertainment, and they pulled the same thing with Short Circuit and Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead as well. At least they seem to be including subtitles regularly on their new releases.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Trai_Dep: No fooling -- \"Ratcatcher\" and \"Trainspotting\" were impossible without the subtitles. Don't get me started on the rhyming Cockney in a Guy Ritchie film.

And I'm considered a native American English speaker, despite growing up in Arkansas.

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Trai_Dep

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@RandomHookup: Oh gods yes, Ratcatcher NEEDED subs. And add Snatch to the list (or any Guy Ritchie film, as you point out).

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GitEmSteveDave_HurtHisKnee

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@RandomHookup: Ball poppers? No. What they said in Chronicles of Riddick was \"Party Poppers\". It's an easily made mistake. I'm sure you thought you were renting a better more than a Vin Deisel flik as well. ;)

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Closed captioning is NOT a marketing feature -- it is something that should be required as a \"reasonable accommodation\" to those who are hard of hearing. I hope Disney does the right thing and puts captioning back in before they lose potential buyers.

5 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@dasunst3r: Ideally, I'd like to see them not only apologize but also recall the rental DVD and replace it with a captioned version.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: They would have to replace all of them though. There isn't just one.

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lulfas

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@dasunst3r: If they want to sell a movie without closed captioning, that should be entirely their prerogative. You don't NEED to be able to see that movie if you're deaf. And remember, they aren't losing a single potential buyer. People who buy the movies get the CC. It's people who rent that are screwed.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@lulfas: Except for the people who end up deciding to boycott Disney because they can't bother to make the rental versions accessible...

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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You weren't born with right color eyes, you can not buy a car. It is the same difference to a hard-of-hearing/Deaf individual. It's about human rights not simply entertainment.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@FrugalFreak: I think it would be more along the lines of, \"You weren't born with vision, so you can buy a car, just not drive it.\" I understand what @lulfas is getting at, but I don't agree with him or her, considering the subs are in the full-featured purchased copy.

","","

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CompyPaq

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I smell a lawsuit coming.

2 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@CompyPaq: I e-mailed Russ Boltz, who sued Disney in the past about bonus features not being subtitled (look up \"Boltz v. Buena Vista\"). Curious if he'll ever respond.

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lulfas

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: I wonder if I can sue an expensive hooker for not doing me because I don't have any money. It's the same argument. Maybe I can win a blowjob out of it.

","","

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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And they wonder why people download illegally. Give your customers what they pay for, problem solved.

4 replies

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johnfrombrooklyn

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Ursus Maritimus: Ah yes...the ol' argument that because the manufacturer didn't give you the product exactly like you want then you can justify stealing it. Do that the next time you go to a restaurant. Tell the waiter you wanted your meal 2 degrees warmer and then walk out without paying.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@johnfrombrooklyn: Good point, John, but not really the point.

The problem here is not just Disney, nor the stripping of CC (which I need sometimes to understand dialogue and especially music lyrics), nor the theft of intellectual property (shame on you Roger...), the real problem is the sheer animosity between the entertainment industry and its consumers.

I mean, Disney did this for one reason: to deny renters access to the \"special features\" that they Disney spent an extra $30,000 to produce. Unfortunately, some dimwit at the encoding stage lazily deleted the entire \"extras\" folder instead of just opening it and removing everything but the captions, which is what Disney likely wanted in the first place.

The best answer that I can see is to keep screaming at Disney directly (try this page or call 800-723-4763 in the US) and indirectly at forums like Consumerist.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Ursus Maritimus: +1. Not that two wrongs = a right, but as a person who has hundreds of ill-gotten movies, it's BS like this that makes me feel like I've done nothing wrong. Without resorting to too much rhetoric or hyperbole, I almost liken this kind of scenario to the whole \"stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving family\" situation. Is it technically wrong? Yes. But would anyone really blame you? Probably not.

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lulfas

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@RogerTheAlien: If the customer paid for the movie, they would have gotten CC. However, in this case, the customer paid Netflix, and got the version of the movie Netflix purchased. So, they got EXACTLY what the paid for.

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TCama

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@lulfas: Wait, so if I pay for something through an intermediary, I don't deserve the same rights as if I had paid for it directly?

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@lulfas: Except that Netflix originally identified the DVD as having bonus features and subtitled. And Blockbuster still does.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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So, if a store makes an error in their description of the product, is the manufacturer's fault?

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endless

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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i got the 4 disc combo pack with bluray for $10 from target after coupon.

on one hand i would say, just do that, its a great price.

on the other, it is really lame that they stripped out the CC... as a former netflix user that definitely sucks (nothing against NF, just didn't have time to watch that many movies!) bad disney, bad.

3 replies

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mianne

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@endless: I believe Walmart also sells the stripped down version of the DVD for their normal full price of $19.96. Want the extras, either get the 2'disc deluxe edition for $24.96 or the three disc BluRay/DVD combo for again $19.96..

Gotta apply the Target is Crazy\" tag to both Disney AND Walmart.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@mianne: ...Yeah, that makes no sense at all. The 2-disc DVD is, quite literally, a subset of the 4-disc Blu-Ray package!

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@endless: The sad thing is, I probably *would* have bought the DVD had they bothered to subtitle the rental version so that I could try it out first.

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TCama

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I think that a group such as the National Association for the Deaf should get behind this. They should put pressure on the movie studios as a united front. Legislation would be cumbersome, so it'd probably work a lot better to just communicate with the major distributors.

1 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Public pressure should and could help do this. Without public pressure, studios will continue to ignore us. we are a minority and they just don't care.

","

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I work in a public library and we heard about the two types of DVDs some time ago from industry journals.

Originally, the studios wanted the library market to be lumped in with the regular rental market (Blockbuster and such) but when libraries heard that the DVDs would be stripped of content - they complained. Fortunately for us, the studios have backed down and we can purchase the retail copies if DVDs if we wish from our vendors though the studios have stated that we may get them later than the regular rental market.

I checked with my employer and our copy of \"Up\" has just arrived and when they checked it is the full DVD with captions and bonus features. I don't know if the OP's library carries feature DVDs (not all libraries do), but it might be an option if this happens in the future.

4 replies

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summarann

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@GeekChicCanuck: i also work at a public library. we were recently informed of this change in dvds as well. library \"jobbers\" (companies that specifically sell to libraries) are only supposed to sell \"rental ready\" copies of dvds to libraries now. i did not know of the complaints or the change you referred to since this isnt really my department at the library. however, our library apparently buys most of its dvds from walmart so will still have dvds with all the special features. i find it very hard to beleive that closed captioning or subtitles would be considered a special feature but im not surprised. they want you to go out & buy a copy. this isnt just a disney thing. its an entire industry thing.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@summarann: Just checked with our acquisitions department and all our DVDs come from vendors who fought right along with us for the right to sell us non-rental DVDs. We could purchase the stripped down ones - but why would we want to?

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@GeekChicCanuck: My local library does carry DVDs, but Up isn't one of them yet.

However, I did find that my local mom-and-pop video store got their copies of Up retail, so I'll be renting it there as soon as they get it returned.

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catastrophegirl chooses not to fly

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: yet another reason to support a local market

","

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self-check

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Why should the government be involved in what is provided on a DVDthat the buyer voluntarily purchases (or rents, as in this case), aslong as the DVD contains what it claims? Publicly shame companies thatstrip subtitles out, as is being done here, sure, but don't expandgovernment when it's not necessary, because it will always come back tobite you. What's to stop others from demanding that the governmentrequire that every DVD release contain things like an anamorphicversion (widescreen enhanced)? But of course the market has alreadydealt with this by providing that when available, because owners ofwidescreen televisions demand it. Don't bring the government in exceptto protect you from others who are using force against you.

1 replies

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VermilionSparrow

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@self-check: Unfortunately, you're comparing apples and oranges there. Widescreen enhanced formatting is a feature that nobody needs, but some people are willing to pay extra for it. Captions are a feature that some people need in order to derive any value from the product at all, and they are not generally willing to pay extra to get it, on principle. The market usually responds to the latter by not providing accommodation, because they are, on balance, not getting paid for the extra effort required to provide the feature. This is a case where legislation works brilliantly.

","

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Can they sue for discrimination? Forcing certain groups to have to purchase the DVD rather than being able to rent it like everyone else doesn't seem legal.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I smell a lawsuit in response to this..

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swanksalot

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I received my Netflix copy of Up on Friday (11/13/09), and mine had close-captioning and bonus features. Maybe there were some that had this, and some that did not.

4 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@swanksalot: DVD or Blu-Ray? The Blu-Ray from Netflix has been confirmed as having the bonuses intact.

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swanksalot

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38:
My Netflix copy was a DVD, and seemed like a normal DVD in every way - bonuses and close-captioning, etc.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@swanksalot: Huh, weird. Maybe some Netflix locations got retail copies instead? Or maybe they replaced their stock after finding out about Disney's epic fail via the DVD's user reviews?

I'm honestly quite curious about this now. I'm almost tempted to rent it a third time to see if I luck out.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@swanksalot: And if it is indeed the DVD, then I'm surprised that Disney has not posted any sort of notice about this. Copies I received on both Tuesday and Thursday were caption-less.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@MooseOfReason: Yeaahhh... particularly given that, at least at Blockbuster, the DVD case still identified it as subtitled!

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I think Disney is guilty of fraud, not neglecting to have closed-captioning on the DVD.

2 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@MooseOfReason: Yeaahhh... particularly given that, at least at Blockbuster, the DVD case still identified it as subtitled!

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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This is good for the CC Cause! bringing inadequecies to the spotlight. Although I know your issue is rental specific.

I hope you get a worthy response and solution.

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krispykrink

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Removing CC for the deaf because you consider it a \"special feature\" could be seen as a massive lawsuit.

Then again, those official words as spoken by a Disney mouth piece comes as no surprise.

2 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@krispykrink: Seriously. And it's not the first time Disney's been sued for not captioning stuff either (though in that case, it was that the entire 2nd disc of bonus features wasn't captioned on some movies).

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billy

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: but in that case, they were sued for false advertising about the captions, not for merely not providing them. Big difference.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@billy: Which is exactly what happened with Up as well. The DVD case at Blockbuster had an SDH icon on it. The disc wasn't subtitled. Seems like false advertising to me.

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billy

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: Then why is it Disney's \"EPIC FAIL\" according to your letter?

In the case you mentioned above, Disney was sued for advertising a feature it did not provide. In this case, it is not claiming something they are not providing.

Your ire (as far as a lawsuit) should be directed at those who are doing the false advertising, Netflix and Blockbuster.

$\"user-pic\"$

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@billy: I would have thought that Disney provided the DVD cases that Blockbuster used. But maybe I'm mistaken.

Besides, as to Disney, I was really thinking more Executive E-mail Carpet Bomb territory than lawsuit territory when I originally posted. Maybe it's just my bleeding-heart nature, but it seems rather greedy to me to tell deaf viewers that they need to buy the retail DVD, sight unseen, just to understand the dialogue.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Legally no :( But citizen and Corporate compassion should exist. As of now it's not IMPORTANT enough because it doesn't effect majority.

4 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@FrugalFreak: That seems like an odd reason for it not to be legal. I would think the whole point of the ADA is to protect what doesn't affect the majority.

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witeowl

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@FrugalFreak: Really, if you weren't going to be willing to pay for extra features like CC, you shouldn't have chosen the deaf/hearing disabled lifestyle. While we're on the subject, I'm pushing for levying ramp tolls against those who choose to use the wheelchair as their mode of transportation.

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johnva

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@FrugalFreak: There are plenty of reasons to want captions/subtitles even if you're not deaf or hard-of-hearing. I use them all the time to watch things when my wife is asleep, and I also like them because it makes some things easier to follow.

I've noticed that with the transition to digital distribution of media (I don't mean like digital cable, but online, DVD, etc) a lot of these studios and distributors have been slacking on including captioning. It's pathetic, for example, that Netflix-on-demand STILL doesn't support them, even for movies that do include them on their DVDs. I think it's time for some strengthened government regulation, as this situation has got to be beyond frustrating for people who actually need them in order to follow something.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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This is my small push to simply do what others have.

[www.facebook.com]

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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My fiancé is hearing impaired. This pisses me off.

Disney: assholes.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Isn't there a law that requires CC or is that just for TV?

1 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@dumblonde: That law is just for TV, alas. (Though I sometimes wish it applied to DVD...)

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Anyway isn't this also discriminatory against people who don't speak English or can't understand it very well? My mother for example knows English but sometimes has problems understanding when she hears it so she reads the CC. It's really bad in general.

1 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@dumblonde: Oh, yeah, that's another thing. The retail DVD also has both French and Spanish dubs and subtitles, in addition to English subtitles.

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Niphil

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I rented the Blu-Ray copy of Up last week since I'm an employee of a rental company, and it had captions on it, but I didn't check out the regular dvd.

1 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Niphil: It's been confirmed that the Blu-Ray rentals are identical to the retail versions. It's only the DVDs that differ.

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sevenwhitehorses

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Why should they have to? One can buy the copy with the extra features. I for one, if i were to rent it, would prefer to have all of the disk used for the film not extra features ANY, why is it any more unfair for me to request this space to be used for that than someone saying they want it used for captions? do i have no rights? on a limited size disk, which any company would wish to use to ship to rental companies to save on expenses, it should all be just plain movie. where would the 'well i would like this on mine' end. why does one group have the right over another to say you have to have this for us? it is a MOVIE.

i am so tired of the tyranny of the minority in the US. i am up for many cases of saying for public access it is only fair to accommodate as many people as possible when possible but in to many instances this has gone to far.

this is as stupid as the push to ban kindles because some people can not read them.

by the way, i went to boarders and got the blue ray 4 disk set even though i saw the movie in 3D in the theater HEY why are you not complaining about no 3D purchasable nor rental versions?!

7 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@sevenwhitehorses: Wait, what? DVDs weigh the same regardless of whether or not they contain captions. Adding closed captioning wouldn't change the shipping price at all.

Your argument doesn't even begin to make logical sense, aside from your complete lack of empathy for those who neet closed captioning.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@sevenwhitehorses: Pah! Teabagger.

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invormation

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@sevenwhitehorses: How can you compare a 3D feature, which is completely unnecessary, to closed captioning, which is ESSENTIAL for someone who has a hearing disability? God forbid you ever become handicapped and have to deal with being a raging minority...they're so obnoxious you know!

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@sevenwhitehorses: Well, for one thing, people may want to rent it to find out whether they *like* the movie before they buy it... which is rather hard to gauge when you're deaf and there aren't any captions.

And it's not like the captioning would have cost them any more, since it was already on the retail version!

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@sevenwhitehorses: Not everyone has perfect hearing. We're sorry for the massive inconvenience this causes you.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@sevenwhitehorses: Oh, also? Subtitles take up VERY LITTLE bandwidth. Even Sony's Superbit DVDs, which use as much bandwidth as possible for the video stream itself, include them.

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jacques

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@sevenwhitehorses: Your argument is that Disney saves money by not putting on closed captioning?

Really?

You appear to understand that the capacity of a DVD is fixed. But what you don't seem to understand is that the size of the captioning data is not enough to force out any content.

And as a member of the \"majority\", you have every right you could ever want. But that doesn't include the ability to discriminate against minority groups.

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marsneedsrabbits

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I hope someone sues . Being able to watch the movie isn't an extra or a \"special feature\". For some, it's key to watching the movie at all.

I bought Up last week, but haven't opened it. I have difficultly hearing (partial deafness) and it is difficult to watch films in the theatre.

If this is the way they want to play things, though, back to Target it will go.

2 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@marsneedsrabbits: The retail version, which is what would be sold at Target, is fully subtitled, so no need to worry. It's only the rental version that lacks it.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@marsneedsrabbits: Of course, if you meant that you were going to return it because they expected renters to buy the movie in order to get subtitles-- I can't say I blame you, honestly. I was actually considering buying the movie, but getting that bare-bones rental disc made me think twice.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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*puzzled*

Since when is closed-captioning considered a \"special feature\"?

FWIW I often find myself turning on caption/subtitles just so I can make out the dialog above the clamor of the sound-effects and the din of the soundtrack.

1 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@TheTaoOfMeow: Exactly. I never would have understood most of what happened in \"The Wire\" if not for captions, since I had to keep the volume down after everyone else went to sleep.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Ah, discrimination. I hope Disney gets specially featured in a lawsuit.

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crutnacker

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Perhaps Pixar should get involved. This is the same company that made sure a little girl who literally only had hours to live saw the movie on DVD before it was released. Now Disney says people who rent it better be able to hear? Epic fail.

We watched it today. At least now I know why I couldn't find a damned menu.

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crutnacker

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Maybe Disney just figured deaf people could read animated lips.

1 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@crutnacker: Heh. And it's particularly hard with Dug, who 'speaks' through a dog-translating collar...

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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FWIW, Girls Gone Wild features Closed Captioning (at least according to all their commercials that get me weird looks from fellow jetBlue pax as I watch Daily Show reruns on redeyes).

2 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@RedwoodFlyer: How hard is it to copy and paste a caption of \"WOOOOOOOOO!\"

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Laura Northrup: And \"I don't normally do this...\"

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Nitrokart knows CPR and took that guy's wallet

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Wouldn't it be cheaper for disc to manufacture just one disc? Instead of producing special less-than-barebones discs without subtitles?

Let's not forget that the single disc edition of the movie is pretty barebones. It has a menu, scene selection, CC and two shorts. That's it. No behind the scenes content. Really sucks too, because Up is one of my favorite Pixar movies and I'm not a fan of double dipping.

1 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Nitrokart knows CPR and took that guy's wallet: And the 2-disc DVD doesn't include all the making-of stuff from the Blu-Ray, either, from what I've read.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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The notion that the ADA should apply to animated movie DVDs is bizarre. This is about entertainment, not a service necessary to anyone's life, health, safety, housing, employment, or education. I guess this just shows how many would-be tyrants out there are perfectly willing to regulate business to a T.

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sashazur

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Just for everyone's info, there's a difference between subtitles and closed captions.

Both are text information encoded in the video, but then things get different:

Closed captions: Originally designed to be broadcast as part of the over-the-air TV signal (and still are). The caption information is part of the TV signal. Closed captions include both a transcription of the dialog as well as descriptions of sound effects. All TVs sold in the USA must be able to display closed captions if the signal includes them.

Subtitles: These are graphics included in the DVD data, and the DVD player displays these graphics under user control - so subtitles will work regardless of what kind of TV you have. Subtitles generally only include the text transcription of the dialog, without sound effect descriptions.

A DVD can include either, both, or neither.

I can understand that Disney might remove subtitles, but it's nasty and discriminatory to remove captions.

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halflyboy

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Boy is everyone so sensitive. ADA should not have to be involved because they did not deny anyone CC. You chose to rent the dvd without CC. You could have bought the dvd with all the extras. So Disney did not deny you anything. You made the choice to rent a dvd without the extra. When I rent a dvd I just want th movie. If I wanted CC I would check to see if it has CC.
I understand Disney explanation. I you want more you have to pay for it.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Yeah, this is what I got from Netflix this weekend. No extras, just a commercial with Cliff Clavin shilling that \"special bonus edition\" that apparently will be released in the future. I couldn't even get to the menu, it just cycled through the commercial, the previews, and the movie.

2 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@BytheSea: The special bonus edition is out now (and does include subtitles); it's just not the one that Netflix got...

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@BytheSea: Coincidentally I read this story and then my husband came home from the RedBox with \"Up\" this evening. No subtitles. We aren't hearing impaired but we ALWAYS use the subtitles or the closed captioning because we have 4 young children who make noise while we watch things and without the subtitles we would be rewinding it all the time asking \"what did he say?\" Needless to say I missed a bunch of the dialogue. Epic fail on this one, Disney.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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This is sick. How much could it possible cost them to put the subtitle tracks on all versions of the dvd? I can't even think of why they wouldn't have subtitles. The dvd has ample space for the subtitle track. I can understand them stripping out the special features to provide an incentive to buy the retail edition. I don't watch any movies with subtitles but I play a lot of games with subtitles and if I ever ran into a game that I played and didn't have subtitles I'd be throwing a fit.

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Syntania

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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This is awful. My husband and I are the types that will rent a film first, and if we liked it, we'll buy it. He always turns the CC on for me, as I have a form of nerve deafness in which voices spoken at a low volume sometimes make the words garbled so I miss about 1 out of every 4 words said. Using CC I don't have to bother those watching with me by going \"what'd they say?\" every 2 minutes. Shame on you, Disney, for ruining the moviewatching experience for those who can't understand!

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nygenxer

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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The major studios are PO'd at sharing profits with rental services, but closed captioning is not an option or an \"extra feature\".

I smell a class action lawsuit coming for discrimination against Americans with disabilities, followed by a corporate apology about as genuine as Heidi Montag's breasts.

On the plus side, several bean-counting positions are about to open up at Disney. Where do I send my resume? I done count beans real good. Yee-haw!

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elizass

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Ugh. More reporting without investigation from the Consumerist, as always.

While there is no menu accessible \"Closed Caption\" feature on the Up DVD, simply toggling the on the closed captions on the actual television set will turn on the closed captioning on the Up DVD.

But hey, that's too simple a fact to bother researching before posting more blatantly anti-corporate propaganda.

4 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@elizass: Just to demonstrate to you that I do, in fact, know how to turn on captioning through my TV, here's a screenshot of the retail version as rented via my local video store:

This was NOT on either of the two Netflix discs that I received. (Yes, I sent the first one back as defective.)

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@elizass: People who regularly use captions tend to not only have an intimate understanding of how various types of captions work, but they leave them on on their TVs by default.

So I found the multiple independent sources who told us about this credible.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@Laura Northrup: In other words...Laura just pwned your punkass.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@elizass: Not on the copy I received from Netflix. And I know that captioning through the TV works, because it showed fine on the Animaniacs disc I also rented.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Totally confounding.

Especially since Disney's been known to have caption friendly theme parks (hand-held PDAs with captioning on them and captioned TVs) ... this move had to be by some thoughtless cretin who didn't consider that there's an audience who seriously needs CC/subtitles!

1 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@kiapurity: And they've been going above and beyond what's required lately with DVDs as well... for the past three years or so, everything released by Disney, even vault titles, has all the bonus footage and commentaries subtitled. And then they go and pull this.

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billy

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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What, exactly, would be the basis for all those who want to sue? It's not covered by ADA, FCC, nor anything else. It's a stupid move on Disney's part, but it's in no way a requirement. If it were, plenty of small, independent studios and distributors would be in a lot of trouble. For that matter, Netflix would be in trouble with its streaming, too.

The point is that dumb moves from big companies don't always equal lawsuits.

1 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@billy: False representation, for one. Netflix used to identify the disc, and Blockbuster still identifies the disc, as having English captions when it doesn't.

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billy

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Then sue Netflix and Blockbuster (the ones doing the false representation), not Disney.

2 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Netflix and BB didn't design the disc labels, Disney did.

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billy

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I accidentally hit the wrong reply button@FrugalFreak: I accidentally hit the wrong reply button for my above comment.

But, anyway, there isn't any information that Disney ever claimed they were CC'd. In fact, their representative insists that they aren't and never meant to be.

codeman38 is up in arms about suing over false advertising. The only false advertising (if you can call it that) was done by retailers who advertised the CCing.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@billy: OK, fair point that the false representation may not be on Disney's part; I hadn't considered that maybe Blockbuster was the party who chose the inaccurate DVD liners.

Still, I think this is EECB material, at the very least, just for the sheer audacity of asking people to pay up for the retail DVD if they just want to comprehend the dialogue.

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Eticus

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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while pirates have had cams with full captions since ... july

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calchip

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I think it's clear there's no argument that one is required to provide captioning on a DVD.

However, I think there may be an argument to be made that if one has done the work to provide the captioning, but then intentionally stripped it out of a version of the DVD, that might be confusing/deceptive in the eyes of the consumer, and might be actionable on that basis.

In any case, it's unfortunate that the studios are now trying to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. My suspicion is that, rather than increase sales of the non-crippled version of the DVD, they will mostly increase piracy, and perhaps, in the process, reduce the demand for rentals, since people will begin to realize that the rental version of a DVD is inferior to one they can download for free off of a torrent site.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Lawsuit? Disabilities act? Protest? The rest of the world should have our kind of problems and causes to rally around.

The fact that our litigiousness is stifling our society couldn't ring more true. They are offering a product - for rental! If you don't like the product, or it doesn't cater to you then you have the freedom to NOT RENT IT. Or, since the actual DVD has the features you want, then BUY THAT ONE! That's how capitalism works folks. They don't need to be forced to make it the way you want it by government fiat.

Honestly, you'd think that most of you WANT a fascist, force majeure-utopia so that everything is guaranteed to be fair and balanced according to YOU. There's a time and a place for a good law. This is not one of them.

2 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@MartinFeardie: parity. equality. equal access.

you know, civil rights????

please return to the rock from whence you came. kthxbi!

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@MartinFeardie: Not everyone has the money to purchase the superior DVD/Blu-Ray versions. :X

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Underscore_Lysdexia

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Hey at least you have Colour!

it's a feature!

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Not that I'm not totally down with the OP, and not that I don't think that closed captioning isn't a \"special feature\", still... I'd absolutely love an edition of a film on DVD without all the commentary tracks, the special extra alternate scenes, the five minutes of trailers at the beginning that you can't fast-forward through, and all that other bullshit.

I totally love the idea of buying a film on DVD that just has...you know, the goddamn film on it, and that's it. Seriously...

1 replies

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lucky929

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@flugennock: Unfortunately, this still won't help you, as the Up DVD through Netflix has a long commercial before the movie starts. Ugh.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I don't understand how CC/subtitles for the hard of hearing aren't required by law. At the very least I don't why studios don't include them on every release - not doing so just adds one more person who can't buy your product.

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7thton

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Wow....Disney usually does things right, but this is a major mis-step. Epic fail, Disney.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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If you can sue a business for not having a wheelchair ramp, can you sue Disney for not including Closed Captioning?

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tailstoo

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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And the studios wonder why people pirate.

CC doesn't matter to me, but it's things like this that just really get me annoyed. I mean really, do they think that people are going to flock out and buy the DVD because the rental version doesn't have CC?

How about making your product better or cheaper so people will want to own it. Trying to prop up a model that people are voting down with their wallets just doesn't work.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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This seems like an ADA class action lawsuit waiting to happen. Unless audio is also an optional special feature, closed captioning should be included.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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A marketing decision? Like, an anti-marketing decision? A decision that makes people not want to use your product. My mother is hearing impaired, and a lack of subtitles caused them to return the Roku box for Netflix instant watching. A lack of subtitles would totally destroy the movie for my parents (one that I happen to think they would like).

1 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@quirkyrachel: Oh, yeah, Watch Instantly is still a peeve of mine. (...At least there are foreign films?)

And yeah, totally agreed on it being an anti-marketing decision. I was actually considering buying the DVD, but I had second thoughts about supporting a company that's pulling stuff like this with rentals.

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sevenwhitehorses

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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why can't the rental places purchase the more expensive version with subtitles and rent those? might they not be the ones you should be attacking.

even putting this idea aside, come on folks, the dvd is available at so many places for $15 and many of those places, such as boarders, even offer a coupon for $5 off your purchase. you can buy it for $10, if one REALLY wants this movie then why not buy it and keep it since it has subtitles!

if one can afford to rent this then i seriously doubt they can not afford to purchase it at such great prices at so many outlets.

2 replies

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CumaeanSibyl

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@sevenwhitehorses: I don't want to purchase it. I want to rent it. I should not have to spend extra money to buy something that I will only use once. This is the entire reason I pay for a movie rental service.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@CumaeanSibyl: exactly.

then there are those folks for whom a $1 Redbox is literally the only splurge they can afford.

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CumaeanSibyl

November 18, 2009 4:53 PM

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@the_wiggle: Yeah, what's with this \"if you can afford $1, you can afford $15!\" business? Isn't that the sort of slippery-slope thinking we're encouraged to avoid?

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Carl from UP is also now in promotions for the Hear The World foundation for the hearing impaired.

[www.hear-the-world.com]

..And then Disney yanks the CC for the hearing impaired.

Somebody at Disney was just NOT thinking

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brianguyy

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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no special features / subtitles I can somewhat understand. but no CC is pretty low. it's rare, but I sometimes come across rentals like this. but they're usually some budget studio, not Disney.

that said, this guy's only reason for renting the movie over seeing it in the $1 theatre was subtitles? hmm sounds like a personal problem. does he also suffer from bad hygiene?

2 replies

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CumaeanSibyl

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@brianguyy: Gosh, I dunno. Is being deaf a personal problem? Because maybe that's why he wanted subtitles.

I know! Crazy!

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@CumaeanSibyl: Yep. Though I'm not technically deaf, I've got neurological issues that basically have the same effect on comprehending dialogue.

I probably still could've seen it in the dollar theater-- like I did with Half-Blood Prince-- but even if I'd done so, I still would've rented it because, well, hey, I can't hear half the dialogue.

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CumaeanSibyl

November 18, 2009 4:53 PM

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@codeman38: The comments on this entry are just blowing my mind.

\"He wants something for hard-of-hearing people? WHY?? I DON'T UNDERSTAND.\"

\"Go on, just buy that DVD you're only planning to watch once, I mean, it's not like you might need that money for something.\"

\"It's his fault for renting instead of torrenting.\"

\"I make my own closed captions at home.\"

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: with the fubar sound tracks used for movies, it's gotten hard for non-impaired folks to hear the dialogue, too :\\

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savdavid

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I rent a movie first to see if I want to buy it. Well, I won't be renting OR buying any Disney movies in the future.

1 replies

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@savdavid: Yeah, that's what I really don't get. If they want deaf and hard-of-hearing people to buy the DVD, then make the rental version watchable so we can see whether we like it!

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edrebber

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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According to the Netflix description, UP has French and Spanish subtitles. I wonder why they left the foreign language subtitles? It will be interesting to see how many customers Disney alienates from buying the DVD versus how many customers go out and buy the DVD for the extras.

The customer is already threatened everytime they watch a DVD with the FBI warning message that you usually can't skip. The answer is to just wait until the movie is shown on broadcast tv and record it. The supreme court has affirmed the right to record over the air broadcasts.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@edrebber: The Netflix DVD doesn't have French or Spanish subtitles either. Here's a screenshot I took of it in Apple DVD Player: [twitpic.com]

(And yes, I know it shows \"Turn Off Closed Captioning\", but that option shows regardless of whether a disc actually has it or not.)

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MrEvil

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Pardon me for presuming, but does this even jive with the ADA? I mean if I can't have round doorknobs (don't get me wrong I prefer the lever type ones anyway) in my business is it possible that Disney can't exclude the hearing impaired?

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@MrEvil: good question. i wonder what ADA would say if notified. . . .

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I don't download movies.... But if I did, this is one of the reasons. Another reason would be because I don't want to be forced to watch the FBI warning for 15 full seconds, nor should I be forced to watch previews without having to press the menu button 15 times.

If I buy a movie... I should be able to pop it in, have the menu come up, and press play.

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SacraBos

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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I can only DREAM that they will consider all the required previews that they load onto a DVD a \"special feature\" and remove them, too.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Now that I've gotten a copy of the retail version rented from my local store, I found out that it's actually quite easy to distinguish the rental and retail versions of the disc-- but from the disc itself, not from the case.

Simply put, the retail disc has a picture of Carl and Russell on it. The rental disc is just... *gray*.

Here's what the two versions look like, for comparison: [twitpic.com]

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jabaer01

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Though this isn't covered under section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act, it is implied that since January 2006 \"The rules require people or companies that distribute television programs directly to home viewers (\"video program distributors\") to make sure that those programs are captioned. Video program distributors include local broadcast television stations, satellite television services (such as DirecTV and the Dish network), local cable television operators, and other companies that distribute video programming directly
to the home. In some situations, video program providers will be responsible for captioning programs. A video program provider could be a television program
network (for example, ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, UPN, WB, A&E, Lifetime and USA Network) or other companies that makes a particular television program\".

I bet if someone fought this and initiated a lawsuit, it would force a more specifically worded addendum to section 508.

What makes me most angry is that Disney promotes itself as being all about children. Apparently the deaf and hard of hearing children don't count.

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billy

November 18, 2009 4:53 PM

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@jabaer01: The government's 508 website says, \"Section 508 requires that Federal agencies' electronic and information technology is accessible to people with disabilities.\"

Disney is not a federal agency. 508 doesn't apply to them.

It's curious, though, b/c all the stuff you posted starting with \"The rules require...\" doesn't seem to be from 508. It's from the FCC. [www.fcc.gov]

Under the FCC definitions, one who provides DVDs is not a \"video program distributor\" for purposes of the FCC. The FCC doesn't regulate the sale or distribution of DVDs. None of that language you posted applies in this case.

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foambullet

November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Speaking as someone who works in video, this is most likely a mistake, and even Disney customer service doesn't realize it.

Uncaptioned and Captioned versions of programs are kept on two separate masters. Disney likely contracted out the creation of the special rental DVD, and provided the uncaptioned master, and no one picked up on the mistake. It's likely that a failure at a small point of the process led to this epic fail.

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November 18, 2009 4:53 PM

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@foambullet: I've read three different statements, quoted from three different Disney reps, that the uncaptioned master was a marketing decision-- the tweet mentioned in the OP, this Minyanville post, and this LJ post.

If the omission of captions was in fact a mistake (as I, too, originally assumed it was), then Disney is making an even worse excuse for it.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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Oh wow. LiveJournal user 'thumpaflash' also called Disney, and they told her the same thing that they told TheFarmerJoe on Twitter:

After a couple minutes, she then gets back on the line with me and proceeds to tell me that the decision to not offer captions or subtitles on the rental version was a \"marketing decision\" because subtitles and captions are considered \"special features\", but if I wanted to enjoy captions, I could buy a retail version.

[thumpaflash.livejournal.com]

Right. Because leaving out captioning will totally encourage people to buy the DVD, rather than, y'know, making them feel cheated that the movie they just rented was unwatchable.

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November 18, 2009 4:52 PM

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@codeman38: Oops. Thumpaflash is a he. I don't feel bad, though; I had my own gender mistaken on Fark. :-D

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November 18, 2009 4:53 PM

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Now Marlee Matlin has tweeted about this, claiming that (despite what three separate people were told by three separate Disney reps) this was a case of manufacturer error, and that all new copies of the DVD will include captioning.

Of course, no mention of the old discs being recalled, so you may have to rent it five or six times from Netflix or Redbox before you get a captioned copy. And if the discs aren't visually distinguishable, you may have the same issue at a brick-and-mortar store as well...

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November 18, 2009 4:53 PM

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Couldn't it just have been a mistake?

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November 18, 2009 4:53 PM

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@DanGarion: That was my theory at first, but the fact that three separate Disney reps claimed it was a marketing decision made me question that.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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I wonder if eliminating the special features saved space and allowed them to manufacture these rental editions as single layer discs as opposed to the costlier dual layer discs. If not, their move didn't save them much money if any.

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November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

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@b612markt: Even still, captioning takes up, what, less than a megabyte?

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November 25, 2009 12:04 PM

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I wonder what the American Disability's act would think of this? I apologize to all my hard of hearing friends (myself included) and deaf friends on behalf of someone at Disney who came to work without his/her brain engaged along with a serious lack of empathy. I hope Disney and Pixar do something soon to right this wrong!

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November 25, 2009 12:04 PM

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I wonder what the American Disability's act would think of this? I apologize to all my hard of hearing friends (myself included) and deaf friends on behalf of someone at Disney who came to work without his/her brain engaged along with a serious lack of empathy. I hope Disney and Pixar do something soon to right this wrong!

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March 4, 2010 10:13 PM

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Forgive if this has been posted already, but here's how you can watch the dvd (UP) with SDH, and NOT have to buy it: Call Disney at 1-800-723-4763 Mondays 9:30-7:30 CST and Tuesday through Friday 9:30-6:30 CST -- ask them to mail you a copy with captions and a postage-paid envelope in which to return it.

When I called this week to complain and to ask what recourse we had if we wanted to RENT the dvd with captions - not buy it - I was initially quite unsatisfied. The woman I spoke to gave me two options: 1) she could send me a coupon for a free rental for a DIFFERENT Disney movie, or 2) she could send me a $5.00 off coupon for purchasing UP. When I threw a little fit about the unfair coercion to get the DHI community to buy a movie they cannot enjoy easily in the theaters, and I used the word \"discriminatory,\" she put me on hold briefly, then came back and offered to mail me a copy to view which I'd then return. Received it today, and am planning to watch it with my hearing-impaired husband this weekend. So, I think everyone who wanted to rent it should call and request this -- it's the least they can do.

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galligal

March 12, 2010 8:16 PM

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I really enjoyed this in the theater, but I am hearing disabled and really wanted to see it again on DVD. I missed a lot of the dialogue in the theatre. You can't read lips of animated characters well and the dogs are impossible to decipher without closed captioning. I think it's shameful the Redbox DVD I rented did not have closed captioning. I hope the Family Video version has the closed captioned one. You'd think if the main character wears a hearing aid, you'd closed caption all the DVDs. I think this is shameful on Disney's part. Boo! Hiss!! Now I'm wondering if their other releases are closed captioned.

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