var json_comments = new Array("

$\"user-pic\"$

K-Bo

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate | Flag for review

Don't most coupons and deals state that the customer is responsible for tax? I always figured it was some sort of legal requirement. Since it's tax, it went to the government, not sears. On the other hand, if it's listed as tax and Sears keeps it, they could be looking for big trouble.

3 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

K-Bo

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@K-Bo: Did a little research. Check out terms and conditions on this page: [www.sears.com]

\"Rebate value varies based on price paid for products less all discounts, coupons and reward certificates and does
not include tax.\"

Pretty straight forward.

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@K-Bo: Good research work there. And here I was theorizing that it was a mandatory gratuity.

$\"user-pic\"$

K-Bo

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@K-Bo: Also, I don't know if this is the same offer the op used, but it seems to be a pretty standard offer, and it states that there is a max of $75 reimbursed for most states.

$\"user-pic\"$

cameronl

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@K-Bo: K-Bo, don't let a simple, straight-forward answer get in the way of the Consumerist's posting of a inflammatory (non)story. ;)

Since when did people start expecting rebates on taxes?

$\"user-pic\"$

Applekid

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@cameronl: Of course not. But, if Sears is going to advertise free delivery, shouldn't it actually be FREE delivery instead of yet another rebate shell game?

I've heard of discounts by rebate, but delivery that's only free after rebate? Ridiculous.

$\"user-pic\"$

nybiker

November 23, 2009 10:03 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

I'm with you on that. I am sick and tired of looking at the word FREE screaming at me and then having to look for the gotcha that tells me it's not going to be free.
Let us be clear: FREE means no money out of my pocket AT ALL for a particular deal.
REBATE does not mean FREE if I have to pay sales tax.
SAVE indicates a reduction. It would be better to say \"Save $75 on delivery.\"
Or \"Delivery will cost no more than $15 + state/local sales tax if bought from today through next week.\" See, that way it already reflects a lower price. And no rebate. Just a real price.
Of course, it's a logical thing for them to do, so they won't do it.

O/T: Why does the comment box jump to the top of the list when I reply? I don't see the message I am replying to and therefore have to remember all the points of said commenter. Is it an Opera 10.10 thing? Or do other folks have the same problem now?

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@Applekid: I dunno, most anytime I see something \"free\", you still have to pay whatever taxes are owed on the goods or services provided.

Like those free bottles of pop you win under the pepsi/coke liners. You get the product \"free\" but you still have to pay any applicable deposits/enviro fees and local/state/provincial/country taxes on the original value of the product.

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

The problem is that the rebate shell game is what most likely triggered the tax in the first place. Services get taxed (depending upon the state). If Sears just simply did not charge the delivery charge there would be nothing to tax. But I guess if they want to limit their \"generosity\" to below $75 they have to account for it somehow. Anyhow, tax does not go to Sears and so I don't think they should be responsible for paying it. Just my little opinion though.

$\"user-pic\"$

Myrna_Minkoff

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@Applekid: Depending on what state the OP was in, Sears may be legally required to do it this way.

Sales tax laws are insanely complicated on the business side.

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

I lost out on a sales rebate once before, because I made the assumption that their rebates work the way other rebates work (get the product, send in the rebate) big mistake, read the fine print.

I ordered a fridge, it got back ordered for a few weeks. I had a $60 rebate on the delivery charge. I waited until the fridge had been delivered before filing the rebate.

OOPS

The rebate had already expired. What I should have done is send it in the same week I had bought the fridge.

So, the people they contract to do the rebates denied the rebate because I sent it in 2 days after the expiration. And they weren't willing to budge at all.

And what really grinds me is that a $60 rebate with the exact same terms (but a different ID# and date range) was going on. Not only that, but I've peeked in over the years and it seems that they continually have these rebates back to back.

That whole experience left a sour taste in my mouth and led me to go elsewhere for the rest of the appliances I've replaced (washer/dryer/dishwasher/stove). Their unwillingness to budge on a small $60 rebate (in fact, their whole FUBAR rebate system) lost them thousands in sales.

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@Myrna_Minkoff: Yeah I was thinking that as well. Even if they didn't charge for delivery, the taxman may still come in and tax them for it....

$\"user-pic\"$

K-Bo

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@Applekid: I think that's the way Lowe's and Home Depot do it also. I doubt small local stores do it that way, but not everyone has a well stocked local store available to them.

","

$\"user-pic\"$

NICU

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

Yeah this happened to me every time Verizon \"accidentally\" configured my cell phone plan wrong. 3 months in a row they \"forgot\" to add free Verizon-to-Verizon calling, and a few other things. My bill was over $300 for the first 3 months and they would refund everything but the tax. Eventually with enough complaining I got all of the money back and then some. They were always nice and friendly and explained that they could not refund the tax during that month, but they could refund it in the following month's bill. I'm guessing that tax laws are not written in a consumer-friendly way that allows for easy refunds.

I would suggest contacting them a few more times to get the rest of the money back if it's that important.

4 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

ben

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@NICU: Yeah, I don't buy that excuse. If you buy a product and then return it to the store, you get the full amount back, including the tax. They don't tell you that you have to wait a month to get the tax credited.

If they make a mistake on your bill, it's effectively the same thing. The charge and the associated tax should be removed immediately. Anytime something like that has happened (from other companies. I don't have Verizon) I've always received the full credit immediately.

This is different from the OP's issue though, which others have adequately explained.

$\"user-pic\"$

kexline

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@NICU: I'm more suspicious of Verizon's customer relationship management and/or billing software than the tax laws. At least in the context of your story.

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@NICU: I imagine that if there's an error, Verizon has to pay the govt. the tax, but probably has no easy way of getting a tax refund. So if they refund you the tax, it's coming out of their own pockets.

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@Sockatume: Except they are writing another check every month to the states. Doing an offset shouldn't be too hard.

","","","

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

It looks like it's in the form of a rebate. That's standard sop for a rebate - you don't get the tax back. If it was an at-register discount, then yes, she shouldn't have been charged tax in the first place, but in this case it sounds like the tax was legitimately charged and remitted to the state.

1 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

zacox

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@madanthony: Depending on the state the OP is in, that is exactly how it works. In PA, discounts itemized on a bill or taken at time of sale also reduce the tax, while rebates do not. Typically, the fine print on such rebates will state that the consumer is responsible for all taxes and taxes will not be refunded. In the OP's case, if the fine print did not state that, and if they promised FREE delivery (without disclosing that it was to be rebated later) they owe her the tax, too.

For most cases, this analogy will work just fine:

If you buy a $1000 TV from WalMart, but they give you $500 off at the register, you pay tax on the $500 only. But, if you pay $1000 and get a $500 rebate by mail, you pay tax on the $1000 and don't get any of it back.

The OP should just deal with it and move on.

","","

$\"user-pic\"$

Hogan1

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

Personally I like to read the fine print for any offers I partake in. For example this states it does not cover the tax... Pretty clear to me.

","","

$\"user-pic\"$

pb5000

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

When sears was taking the delivery order from me at the time of purchase, they asked for the nearest cross streets, which I gave and made sure the person typed them into the computer correctly. I wanted to double check because one of the roads rhymed with another road about 15 miles away. Finally on delivery day, I get a call from the people looking for my house and of course they are near the rhyming road not the one I told them. When the guy shows up 30 minutes later he bluntly tells me that he could have skipped my delivery because of wrong cross streets. When I sign the invoice I see right on there the correct street typed in and let the delivery guy with an attitude know that he couldn't have skipped my delivery because he's incapable of following directions. I don't do large purchases from sears anymore.

","","

$\"user-pic\"$

gnordy

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

I bought a washer and dryer from Sears last year. The add said \"free delivery (up to $75)\". When the sales person rang me up, he charged $90 for delivery. I told him the ad said they would only reimburse $75. He told me if I submitted the $90 charge, they would reimburse the full amount. Needless to say, they only reimbursed me $75 and I am no longer a Sears customer.

","","","","","

$\"user-pic\"$

admiral_stabbin

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

I agree that \"free delivery\" should = \"free delivery\". I'm pretty sure it has on each new appliance I've purchased at Lowe's over the past couple years. I could be misremembering though.

As to where the tax goes...well, unless Sears is playing a game of tax evasion (unlikely), then it is being forwarded to whatever taxing authority they send collected tax too.

I've had delivery shenanigans with Sears in the past (as other commenters appears to have too). As such, I won't buy any more appliances from them...unless it's a smokin' deal, and I'm picking it up.

1 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

That's Consumer007 to you

November 24, 2009 6:33 AM

Moderate |Flag for review

Then they should be sued for false advertising, plain and simple. We really need stronger federal language regulating the use of \"free\" in marketing and heavier penalties and penalties enforced on corps.

","

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

This might vary by state, but in Illinois, when you buy something and there's a discount, the discount is taken off before the sales tax is added, so you are taxed on the amount you actually pay, not on the undiscounted price. So I would expect that you would see something like:

Shipping $75
Discount -$75
Subtotal $0
Tax $0

2 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

nybiker

November 23, 2009 10:08 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

Discounts are like sale prices in that the price is reduced before the sales tax is calculated. Rebates are given to you after you've paid the original price (with the original sales tax). That's why rebates are not a good thing (I won't get into the fact that you don't always even get the check). Mentally, you think you've gotten something either cheaper or free, but there's no free lunch.
Again, for us consumers, we see \"free\" because hey shipping is $75 and the 'rebate' is $75 so we figure, hey, we're golden. But no.

$\"user-pic\"$

ryan89

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@vladthepaler: Unless its a mail in rebate type of discount. You still pay the tax on the pre-discount amount. If this customer lived in Illinois, they would not have to pay tax on a delivery fee anyway since it is considered labor. (used to live in IL)

","

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

Not really about Sears, but I recently purchased an elliptical machine (120 lb shipping weight) from Amazon. The page clearly said free super saver shipping. When I tried to check out, the only shipping option that was available was standard shipping ($107). I didn't order the item, and e-mailed Amazon customer service and they got back to me within a day, cheerfully offering to refund the shipping costs after I ordered the item.

","","","

$\"user-pic\"$

tripnman

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

Where did this happen? In California, sales tax does not apply to delivery fees if they are itemized separately on the invoice AND the seller used a third party delivery service. If they used one of their own vehicles, or if the delivery fee is packed into the sell price, sales tax applies. Tax codes will vary by state, but thought this was worth mentioning. If this sale happened in California and the delivery meets the requirements for being tax-free, report them to the BOE.

Reference: [www.ca.boe.gov]

","","

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

this is all she has to complain about? pretty amazing actually. when i ordered appliances from sears, the \"free next day delivery\" turned into 2 weeks. then 3 weeks. then, when they could only deliver it on a weekend, they wanted to bill me for it (even though it was their decision to deliver on a weekend).

i would've gladly paid an extra $6 not to go thru all the hassle i went thru with that purchase.

","

$\"user-pic\"$

The_Lost_Art_of_Sears_Customer_Service

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

Back in my day at Roebuck's Shack, delivery and the fees involved had little governance in the store. Kind of like the wild west, almost. Not sure if you want that garden tractor? We'll throw in free delivery. Not convinced about the 5-year service plan? ...Free delivery on that water heater.

Some of the horror stories of delivery were epic. I remember the daughter of a very famous local athlete had paid for a treadmill and delivery...and when it came, the clowns bringing it into her apartment somehow managed to knock over a huge jar of sand onto (and then into) the motor and belt of the treadmill. Instantly ruined. And the sand was from Normandy, France...from her Grandfather.

","","","

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

This does vary by state, in mine there is no sales tax on delivery so I have always gotten the entire amount back.

","

$\"user-pic\"$

jp

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

I had a few coupons for free film. I was charged the tax sometimes, sometimes not. It like a coupon at the grocery store for a taxable item. Say Ziplock bags. The person rings them up and the tax is calculated to the bill. You give the coupon and they only take off the cost of the bags, not the tax.

","

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

$6 tax, whatever. Especially considering it depends on the state for sales tax on deliveries.

If your \"free delivery\" ended up taking months, or was hundreds of dollars, I'd sympathize.

But there's probably a clause covering this in their delivery options.

","","","

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

A grocery store tried to charge me tax for a \"free soda\" coupon (bottle cap) that I had.

3 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

bhr

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@oneliketadow: They are supposed to...

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@oneliketadow: Actually I think they're supposed to. Most bottle cap liners stipulate that you have to pay any applicable deposits, taxes or enviro levies on your free bottle of pop. The item might be free, but you still have to pay the government for your product.

$\"user-pic\"$

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

@Kogenta: I don't see why that makes sense. If the soda is \"free\" then the sales tax (here anyway) is 6.75% * $0.00, which is $0. If Coke had a person outside the store doing promo work and handing out free sodas would I have to pay tax there too?

$\"user-pic\"$

November 24, 2009 6:47 AM

Moderate |Flag for review

It's a little more complex than that. States charge sales taxes in different ways -- some on the after coupon amount, some on the before coupon amount and lots of variations thereof.

","

$\"user-pic\"$

ZukeZuke

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

I'm betting the OP is wrong on her understanding of the free shipping deal. I just bought a 25 cu.ft. french door refrigerator from Sears and the free shipping REBATE clearly says \"rebate value up to $75 back\" on your delivery fees and the exclusions specifically say it does not include taxes. Delivery was only $65 for such a large item anyways.

If you look on Sears' Rebate Center page, they have dozens of rebates for \"Free Delivery, up to $75 off\" or \"up to %10 off\" or \"Price paid for installation\", etc. I don't think she read the rebate form carefully.

","","","","

$\"user-pic\"$

MJDickPhoto

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

My parents remodeled their house and when they did the kitchen they had a hayday with Sears. They bought the extra large versions of dishwasher, stove, fridge, micro wave, and almost everything was brought out individually due to not having it in stock, and they never got any of the delivery charges refunded. when talking to cust care, they were told that their return was kicked out due to their \"obscene name filter\" as is the case with many rebates we used to try for. if only the Consumerist was arround back then....

","

$\"user-pic\"$

SG-Cleve

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

Hope you can assist. I would like to escalate but I don't know how much time I can give this for $6.

Exactly. I know there's principle involved here, but how much time do you really want to spend fighting for $6.19? In addition to your time, over 5,000 people have now given their time reading about the loss of $6.

","

$\"user-pic\"$

kc2gvx

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

My \"free\" comp rooms in Atlantic City wind up costing me $13 in taxes, occupancy fees, and tourism fees even though I live in NJ.

","","

$\"user-pic\"$

CuriousGeorge113

November 23, 2009 5:32 PM

Moderate |Flag for review

You pay taxes.

I pay taxes.

We all pay taxes.

In fact, many states (CA being the most notorious) charge sales taxes on all items based on the price before any discounts or rebates.

And, when I worked retail for VZW, people paid taxes on the amount of their purchase before mail-in-rebates.

The way I see it, If sears offered free shipping, and the shipping was $75 before taxes, and sears gave the OP a rebate of $75, then Sears was (unusually) correct.

","","","","","

$\"user-pic\"$

ginnel

November 24, 2009 8:49 AM

Moderate |Flag for review

I gave up on Sears years ago. Too many promises, too much fine print. I buy my appliances from a local store that offers totally free delivery. Usually the next day. A few months ago I needed a new refridgerator and when I purchased it there ( at an excellent price) the owner offered to have it delivered and set up the same day if I wanted. And they service all the products they sell. No rebates, no coupons, no fine print. Just good service.

","

$\"user-pic\"$

MrKane

November 27, 2009 1:38 AM

Moderate |Flag for review

Hmm, our local store doesn't charge tax on services.
As a matter a fact, dishwasher install ($150) includes delivery and Sears doesn't charge you tax on the dishwasher at all - as its getting installed. So after your delivery fee ($75) and taxes saved (10% in Chicago), you're better off letting them do it and get the warranty on the install itself.

");