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amberlink
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Excellent. I'm sure if you give up your first born, you can get a variable rate PLUS only 19%, rather than the 34% they promise to enact.

Excellent. Where do I sign up?

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2 replies
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thezone
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@amberlink: Can I give someone else's first born?

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sonneillon
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@thezone: Only if you pay the balance transfer fee.

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NeverLetMeDown
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Why is this a bad thing? IF, and only, IF, someone prefers to have the ability to go over their limit, and pay a $29 fee, they can do so. It's opt-in, so I don't see where the problem is here.

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8 replies
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Persistence - Long viv revolisyon an konsomatè yo!
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@NeverLetMeDown: Anyone has a list of other federal laws I can \"opt out\" of? I know this doesn't seem like a stretch after 8 years of Bush, but seriously, not even the president is supposed to be able to \"opt out\" of following a federal law, regardless of how Nixon felt about it.

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wickedpixel
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Chumas: If you actually read the CARD Act, or even a synopsis, you'd know that's not what they're doing at all. The CARD Act doesn't make allowing customers to go over their limits illegal; it makes the practice opt-in rather than opt-out. Capital One is offering an incentive for the customer to stay opted-in, which is perfectly legal and not a waiver of any rights.

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joepa1
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Persistence: it all depends on what your definition of \"is\" is..

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Buckus
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@joepa1: Haha. Good one. Channeling Bill Clinton there. I'd like to opt-out of homocide laws since I want to go to CitiBank and give them a piece of my mind.

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amberlink
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@NeverLetMeDown: This might be a bad thing if in the actual language there is text that tries to sneak in \"and additional protections are also waived\" on page 95 of the \"new\" agreement you sign in 6 point type.

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dragonfire81
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@amberlink: Uh oh, better watch out, you're on to them now.

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Chumas
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@NeverLetMeDown: the problem is they are asking you to waive a right given to you by law that would protect you from further predatory acts by the card company such as raising your rates without notice, additional fees with no notice and delays of your payment, which earn them more fees.

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Michael Belisle
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Chumas: What right are they asking him to waive? Sounds to me like they asked him if he wanted to opt in to an ability to go over his limit, a right offered to him by the CARD act.

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ARP
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Chumas: I agree that its bad (for me), but if the OP wants the ability to go over his limit and just pay the fees, he should have the ability to do so. At a certain point, it's his choice.


However, I think that the CC companies must make it very clear what this means (i.e. that they can raise it any time they want, etc.).

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Trai_Dep
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@ARP: It's the squirrelly language that kills it for me. If the rep listed all the protections the act gives consumers, bullet-point style, then offered their \"deal\", it'd be reasonable. Instead their offer downplays the benefits they'd be giving up.

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Rectilinear Propagation
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Five bucks says that in the small print in the op out rules it says that opting out of that one protection means you opt out of them all.

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3 replies
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kd5jos
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Rectilinear Propagation: To answer all the questions, you are opting out of all of the legislation that is going to be enacted by the government in February. This means that all of the \"anti-predatory\" stuff they are doing, is being waived for a potential savings of $10. The irony of the entire situation is, the law does not state that credit card companies can't allow you to go over the limit, as implied by Capital One.

Everett

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Michael Belisle
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Rectilinear Propagation: I don't think so. As far as I know, they don't have the ability to have you opt out of all of the protections offered by the act, otherwise the whole thing would be moot when applications add language to the effect of \"By applying for this credit card, you agree to opt out of all protections afforded by the CARD act.\"

They can't pick and choose which parts of the act they want to implement, or ask customers to opt out of some parts of the act. Over-the-limit transactions (and associated fees) are specifically allowed if and only if the customer opts in:

Requires Opt-In to Over-Limit Fees: Consumers will find it easier to avoid over-limit fees because institutions will have to obtain a consumer's permission to process transactions that would place the account over the limit. [www.whitehouse.gov]

Sounds to me thats what permission they tried to obtain here.

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ARP
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Rectilinear Propagation: That's what I'm concerned about. This will end up like the arbitration issue: either you agree to it or we close your account. It will become an industry norm and it will be like the CARD act never existed.

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wcnghj
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Is it even legal to opt out??

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1 replies
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rekoil
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@wcnghj: See above comment, which suggests that in the case of over-limit fees, the consumer is able to explicitly opt in. It's that opt-in that Capital One attempted to solicit.

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opticnrv
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Since this seems to be such a confusing topic for the public at large, I suggest this opt in/opt out decision would be a great topic for a Consumer Reports article. (hint hint)

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3 replies
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ken2148
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@opticnrv: See this months issue. There's an entire article on credit cards. They have a summary info box on what the new law does and doesn't do. I haven't read the article yet just the info box. So I'm not sure all what in the article.

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thesadtomato
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@opticnrv: How you can \"opt in\" and sign away your rights under CARD is a very confusing topic to me.

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pecan 3.14159265
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@opticnrv: I agree. If these things start rolling out en masse, it would be helpful to get some of the language so we could see what we may have to look out for. Credit card companies deliberately mask their language in all sorts of ridiculously vague terminology, and sometimes it makes it difficult to figure out what they're actually saying.

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thezone
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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This can't just be to opt in on going over your limit. They must be asking people to opt out entirely and just using going over your limit as their one example. I wonder how many people are going to fall for this trick.

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frank64
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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It is bad to even be close to your limit. That is one big reason they use to raise your rates. If you are even close to it, it should be a very short term situation, so it shouldn't even be a consideration.

It is kind of a fake fee too, it doesn't costs them anything for someone to go over their self imposed limit. Many limits are artificially low because they have been reducing them and in some cases balance chasing. Really what they are saying is we can't by law screw you anymore, but if you let us we can! And we will make it $10 less!

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nightshade74
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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[credit.about.com]

\"No over-the-limit fees unless you request (opt-in) the credit card issuer to process over-the-limit transactions. Otherwise, over-the-limit transactions would be denied and you would not incur a fee.\"

So in short it looks like he's just opting in to have
over the limit transactions approved.

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2 replies
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thezone
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@nightshade74: So the $39 fee lowering isn't really correct. The OP would have a $0 fee since the account would never go over. Sneaky.

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Kevin411
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@thezone: Exactly. I was thinking the same thing. If there is no fee to discount then there is no discount. It may be lower than the current rate, but that rate is going away absent opting out. Sneaky indeed!

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Straspey
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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This smells fishy to me, and I'm wondering whether or not Capital One can legally allow their customers to \"opt out\" of a Federal Law.

Here in NY City, we have very strict regulations regarding residential properties and leases. Any rider or additional clause added by the property owner which seeks to circumvent one of those regulations will be deemed to null and void, even if the tenant signs the lease.

I would be very interested to have The Consumerist contact the proper government agency to see if Capital One is not violating the law by engaging in this slippery activity

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2 replies
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frank64
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Straspey: In this instance it is PART of the law for you to opt out of the over limit fee only. It IS so that people can have the choice to not get stuck somewhere.

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Straspey
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@frank64:

Thanks for clarifying that point frank. I was unaware of that provision in the law, and it's good to know because it will make me a better-informed consumer ;)

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Ronin-Democrat
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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those card companies have their pimp hand strong.......

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econobiker
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Anyone else see the irony of this offer?


The credit industry assesses people's ability pay back extended credit. By allowing someone to go over their credit limit (of course it is for ~emergencies~), this is failure of the corporation to assess the credit repayment risk. This is a micro version of offering mortgages to people who could not afford to pay the mortgages back. Here the government is specifically trying to protect the consumer by forcing the company to stop offering credit above the originally offered amount which would, by default, protect the corporation from non-repayment, and yet corporation wants just more!!! While I am sure that some actuary in the company identified the demographic /economics of the people to whom to extend the \"bust your credit line\" offer, it still stands that the corporation is trying to get yet more!, more!!, more!!! without regard to overall risk to the industry since the focus is probably just some executive vice president going after a bonus...


Is this company in the same industry that cried rivers when people couldn't afford to pay back their debts? The same industry that had to get the entire bankruptcy law changed because people couldn't pay back their debts and the industry was \"losing too much money on deadbeats\"?


So why would this industy encourage people to get back in debt beyond their assessed risk? Oh, yeah, $29.00 per month in pure profit.

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DangerMouth
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Wait, due to changes in the card act, you will no longer be able to go over your limit? But when you go over your limit which they aren't allowed to let you do, they still charge you $39 dollars? But if you waive your rights, they'll drop the overlimit fee by $10? (head asplodes)

Seriously, wtf is so hard about denying a charge if it's past the limit, that they should charge $40 for the privlege?

Also, I thought it wasn't possible to sign away your rights, and any contract in which you do so is lillegal and invalid?

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3 replies
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mmmsoap
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@DangerMouth..Passed the Audition!: Ah, yes. The old \"not only will we let you do something new, we let you do it cheaper\" ploy, I know it well.

I'm with you here. Clearly there's something fishy with CaptialOne, if they've got some kind of fee schedule for illegally doing something, and a different fee schedule for legally doing it.

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wcnghj
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@DangerMouth..Passed the Audition!: Lets say you are opted in and try to go over your limit=declined and no fee.

Opted out? Approval and fee.

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DangerMouth
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@wcnghj: Ah, so cc comapanies won't be able to charge you a fee for merely attempting that which they should never have allowed you to do? What about banks? What about cc's issued by banks? What about debit cards?

I need to find these regs in plain english somewhere... Time to google

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Trai_Dep
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Act NOW and we'll only screw you 75% as much!
Meh... Doesn't seem too winning of an ad slogan to me.

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1 replies
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mazzic1083
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Trai_Dep: Depends on how you market it, that's the beauty of marketing!


Please see tobacco industry, beer commercials, prostitutes and their pimps. All of these things are potentially bad for your health but marketed as the best thing in the world that you are most assuredly missing out on

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PsiCop
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Gee, didn't the Wall Street Journal — which of course is never wrong about these things — recently declare the recession over? How then can the bankruptcies and bank-failures be continuing? I for one don't believe this. I suspect these stories are fabrications by the Evil Media Elite to make people think the recession is still underway, when we all ought to know that it's not. After all, the \"recession\" was never real ... it was merely mental, the result of the Media Elite having made the US into a nation of whiners.

It's all a Commie plot, I tell you! There was and is no recession; no banks have failed; and CIT is doing just fine thank you.

</end sarcasm mode>

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PsiCop
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@PsiCop: Woops, posted to the wrong article. Should have gone here. A thousand pardons please!

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JohnDeere
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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can i opt in to murder, that would be wicked cool. im willing to pay a $29 fee for each murder.

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4 replies
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Michael Belisle
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@JohnDeere: Depending on your political leanings, yes, there are forms of opt-in murder out there and some would like additional forms of opt-in murder. I'll leave it as an (easy) exercise to the reader to decide what I'm talking, since bringing these issues up is going waaay off the ranch in this forum.

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MostlyHarmless
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Michael Belisle: \"I wont bring up these issues i just brought up, because I dont have the balls to take heat for bringing up these completely unrelated issues.\" Well played.

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Michael Belisle
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@MostlyHarmless: Actually, I'm just trying to discourage anyone who might be tempted to bring up certain issues of which we do not speak around these parts. In other forums, like over at the world's largest collection of arguments, I'd be more than willing to grapple mano-a-mano on tough issues.

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JohnDeere
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Michael Belisle: i dont want to murder bad enough to get a job at an insurance company. jeez im not that evil.

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Cant_stop_the_rock
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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\"Waive your rights\" is a slight mischaracterization of what they're offering here. The CARD act requires them to offer a fixed credit limit that cannot be exceeded as an option. Choosing the other option (a limit that can be exceeded) does not entail waiving any rights.

I think your choice of words unfairly demonizes Capital One for giving people the opportunity to make stupid decisions. There are a lot of reasons to demonize Capital One, but they're not doing anything wrong or outside the intent of the CARD act.

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Cant_stop_the_rock
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Cant_stop_the_rock:

I hadn't read the comments prior to posting mine, but now that I have I think it's worth noting that your misleading choice of words has apparently confused a few people.

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lordmorgul
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Cant_stop_the_rock: More than a few people are confused... the comments are full of people making claims to rock solid truth that is nothing even close. I'm with you on this one... poorly done article here.

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vastrightwing
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Rule: Every time you get a solicitation from any consumer business to do anything, reject their offer. I have never gotten a solicitation that was worth my time/money. The reason is clear, the only time a consumer business ever spends money soliciting you is when they will make a ton of money off of you. Bottom line.

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mazzic1083
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@vastrightwing: Very sound advice that I mostly follow as well

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Nighthawke
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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I would have to see this in writing before I even start to discuss this with my card issuers. If Discover did that to me without letting me opt in or out, I'll drop them like a hot iron, and move on. My Cirrus issued bank credit card does just well, no frills, credit limit cash withdrawals, reasonable rates, and a cinch to keep paid off.

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duncanblackthorne
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Calling credit card companies weasels gives self-respecting weasels a bad name. Can we just round all of these companies up now, put them against the wall and shoot them? Please?

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bluesred
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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I got this call from Capital One.

They asked me if when I charge something and I go over my limit... do I want them to deny it, or leave my account the way it is.. and process the transaction. She didn't say anything about the fees or try to sway my decision.

She didn't mention anything about waiving any other rights or anything like that. Just the over-the-limit one. It seemed to me more like an option than opt-out.

I chose to have my account stay the same. That was the only thing I authorized, to have that portion of my account \"stay the same.\"

Just thought I'd post my experience, this was about 2 weeks ago.

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Munchie
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Can this be buried in fine print for other things or does this have to be explicitly agreed to by itself?

I see other enabled features for card fine print have I wave all possible protections from the CARD act buried in the legalese.

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fs2k2isfun
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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I regularly go over the limit on my AMEX, but there is no over the limit fee. I also pay my balance in full every month. While this wouldn't affect me, I probably would waive the \"protection\" since I need to go over sometimes.

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1 replies
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wcnghj
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@fs2k2isfun: Not a good idea with the recent AA from them.

Total account closure/ credit limit decreases.

Why not ask for a CLI

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kd5jos
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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You forgo all of the rights that the government is enacting for a ten dollar savings on a fee, that only applies if you go over your credit limit. This allows the company to play with your interest rate. In fact, you forgo every protection enacted under this law. This is what happens if you keep your account the same as it is now.

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frank64
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@kd5jos: No, that is not what happens. It is just about going over the limit. There are many other things in the law you still get.

This isn't really a bad thing. Some people want the choice. I don't think they should charge for it, but at least they are letting me decide.

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kd5jos
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@frank64: Funny, since I'm the person that took the phone call, and they told me exactly what I just stated (i.e. by accepting their offer of maintaining my account the way it is, i forgo any of the ramifications of changes made by the new law), I'm positive you forgo the protection. I asked, \"so your saying that none of this new law would effect me?\" The answer was, \"yes, none of the new law would effect you.\"

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lordmorgul
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@kd5jos: Clearly the person on the phone was confused as you cannot opt-out of all the protections in the CARD act via a phone call.

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Duckula22
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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That Asian scorpion chick's hot, I'm going to get me one like that, only mine should be blind, that way she won't know she's hot, because when they're hot like that, and they know it, they're bitches with a huge sense of entitlement.

And as for the topic of the thread... yeah, I totally agree.

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