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To the OP, sign up on creditboards and reference this consumerist article as yours in a post in the credit forum.
They will tell you what to do.
To the OP, sign up on creditboards and reference this consumerist article as yours in a post in the credit forum.
They will tell you what to do.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-25844-100x100.png\")
WAY before bankruptcy, another option you must consider for your parents is a reverse mortgage. They have to have equity in their home, and the fees from the Reverse are going to wipe out a good percentage of that equity. But at the end of the day, they will owe nothing and (depending on their equity position) have some cash to start fresh. Which, from the sound of your parents, they will spend. But in any case, it will stop the bill collections, and maybe you can get them to stay within a budget. I can't recommend a specific lender, just google \"reverse mortgage\" and go from there.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-904466-100x100.png\")
@humphrmi: I think what he needs to consider for his parents at this point is guardianship :o(
@cmac: @ColoradoShark: I think Florida has a limit based on lot size (must be less than 2 or 3 acres or something), but not value.
@humphrmi: If their only income is social security then there would never be a need for bankruptcy as social security is protected from garnishment. They would be what is called \"judgment proof.' The only reason to think about bankruptcy would be if they wanted to try and restore some of their credit, but this would take at least 8-10 years.
@holytrainwreck: Yeah, knowing the law is equal to having stock in BofA. All your accounts are belong to us!
@humphrmi: Or they can just ignore their bills until they're dead...which seems to be their strategy right now.
@humphrmi:
Putting the house at risk for people who have no self-control is not a wise solution. A roof over your head and food in the fridge is always a priority. This isn't getting out of debt - it is moving debt around and putting your home at risk. Doing a reverse mortgage at this point is like enabling an addict unless they intend to change their behavior.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-23360-100x100.png\")
@humphrmi: Nah, don't do that. The bastards that are bleeding them dry will bleed their home equity out of their house and the parents will come live with you.
In bankruptcy, their house is protected, why put it at risk?
@ColoradoShark: Bankruptcy protection for houses varies by state, but is pretty much useless. For instance, $15,000 in homestead equity is protected in Illinois. That means that if you have more than $15,000 in equity in your house, the bankruptcy trustee can sell it (the house), and pay you $15,000 and keep the rest. Which leaves you with no house. Then you can try to find another house for $15,000 (forget about getting a mortgage, you just declared bankruptcy). Similar laws apply in other states. Bankruptcy simply doesn't protect most homeowners.
@humphrmi: SD has a pretty decent homestead clause. I can't remember if it has no limit or if the limit is really high so you would have to own a mansion to not be covered.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-87038-100x100.png\")
@humphrmi: In Texas, as long as you've lived in your homestead for more than 3.3 years (weird timeframe... 1215 days) you have unlimited protection of your equity in your homestead in a bankruptcy. If you've owned the home less than that time, it's $125,000. There are some odd exceptions like having committed securities fraud, etc. but in general homeowners' equity is protected.
@humphrmi: In Florida, the laws are quite debtor friendly. If I recall correctly, your homesteaded house is protected, with no limit.
@cmac: Quite right, and bear in mind that the exemption covers equity, not the entire house. So if you have a great deal of equity in Florida, you're good. The non-equity position (e.g. the part of the house that you still owe a mortgage on) can still be liquidated, and the difference between your debt and equity will be paid to you by the bankruptcy trustee. If that's enough to buy another house, great. If not, you're still homeless.
@humphrmi: That's incorrect. A bankruptcy trustee can only liquidate a house that has non-exempt equity.
If the house has a mortgage on it so that its equity is less than the exemption, the trustee cannot sell it.
(I am a bankruptcy attorney, but not your bankruptcy attorney - consult local counsel.)
@humphrmi: In this market, if the mortgage holder thinks you'll continue to pay the mortgage with the financial freedom gained from dumping most unsecured debt, they'll probably agree to a debtor-in-possession arrangement to keep from having to add one more bank-owned property to their books.
@GearheadGeek: yes, that's called a \"re-affirmation\" and it means that you (A) don't clear your entire debt (you must pay back the debt you reaffirm, usually under new conditions) and (B) get to keep possession of whatever property that the creditor holds as lien, and continues to hold as lien. So you don't just get to keep your home free and clear, you have to keep paying the mortgage - probably a new one, at new rates & terms.
In order to clear your entire debt, you must give up the property and (possibly) get back a cash payment that equals the amount of your exemption less what you owe.
And you're still homeless, as I see it, in that case. But you still have a place to live with a rev.
@humphrmi: In Colorado it is 60,000 which won't get you much of a house either. Perhaps I should research *before* posting? That would be novel for the internet.
On the other hand, if the OP's parents have retired to Florida, they have an unlimited bankruptcy homestead protection there.
I hate it when people put me down as a reference (friends, usually people I barely know). The lender never calls for a 'reference', just to annoy me when they don't pay their bills. If they had just called in the first place I could have told them no, they don't pay their bills, are swimming in debt, and are insane for Rentacentering a Plasma TV.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-665956-100x100.png\")
@henrygates:
Few things irritate me more than people \"Rentacentering a plasma tv\" and using me as a reference for it. I always, always refuse to be a reference.
@henrygates: They aren't allowed to call a reference to collect a debt.
Let your states AG and the BBB know about this.
This is completely illegal... filing a police report is a great idea, and include all the company names they have given. If you have their phone numbers saved, that's the most important thing that you need... the police can find out who owns those phone numbers.
You can try searching for those phone numbers online and find the actual owners yourself. Once you know the companies calling you, you could also file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.
As for your parents, I would strongly recommend going to a bank (perhaps their bank) and explaining the situation. Perhaps there is some kind of \"do not lend\" marker they could to your parents credit report. If your parents continue to rack up a huge unpayable debt, they could potentially lose their home... you need to help protect them from themselves.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-545212-100x100.png\")
@chocobo: No offense, but the police aren't going to care about a debt collector making phone calls to you (harassing or otherwise), and unless you live in Pleasantville aren't very likely to be providing you a warm body to follow up on any such complaints. Now, most state Attorney Generals would LOVE to hear about this sort of thing and make a big public stink about it to get re-elected (and might even actually solve the problem, although that's likely to be a secondary concern), and honestly, that's fine and what the OP should have done in the first place.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-233963-100x100.png\")
sounds like his parents should be declaring bankruptcy.
would this not stop all this?
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-158650-100x100.png\")
@microcars: Haha. A cease and desist letter will also stop this. It's a lot easier than filing bankruptcy. The creditor could still sue his parents but at least they wouldn't be bothering anyone on the phone.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-114659-100x100.png\")
I do believe, to be a co-signer, you actually have to sign the document, acknowledging the responsibility, you can't just be listed as one without knowing it. (of course, I am not a lawyer)
To get around their lying about their company names and such, sometimes when companies give me crap about a roomate in the past, I claim to want to mail them a money order, or check, cause I don't have credit cards (and they believe that, since they chase after people that don't pay their bills) and they will give me an address to send it to. I can then tell my buddy exactly which companies violate the FDCA laws. (he had an ex wife that ran up lots of bills in his name, so he moved in with me)
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-21970-100x100.png\")
@QuantumRiff: This brings up a good point: never agree to pay *anything* to a collection agency over the phone, no matter how high pressure they are. Always insist on mailing everything, so that they never get your bank or credit card account information.
@RobertBaron: Money orders. Seriously. I did this for payments we were finishing up to a local hospital. They had an internal collection department that makes the mob look like good Samaritans. They were also really prone to losing things so I used money orders that had a clear tracking method. The last thing these crooks needed was my bank account number.
For those people who advise the OP to file a police report etc... he doesn't have any phone numbers. He clearly states that they use blocked numbers. I think that the OP should tell the caller that he would LOVE to pay his parents debt. He should then collect all of the relevant information (address, phone numbers, bill collectors name, etc...) THEN he can go and file a police report.
@H3ion: Isn't there some \"*\" or \"#\" code you can use on landlines to hard-trace a call? It used to cost $1 per traced call, and you had to file a police report to get the traced numbers released to you.
Then sue for $1000 per call. PROFIT!
...well, probably more like a moral victory, but still...
@DrMorison: There is a way to have the phone company take steps to prevent harassing telephone calls. I don't know if they can get by the block but they should be able to divert unidentifiable numbers.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-1322239-100x100.png\")
@H3ion: So you get clever. \"If I were to pay the debt, where would I send the money\" or simply, \"I need an address to send something to you\". \"What address do people send payments to\" etc etc you get the point. Avoid a verbal agreement but use some social engineering to get what you need. \"I need to check with the debtors to see what is going on. At what number can I call you back?\"(I wouldn't acknowledge the type of relationship if they don't already know. Never give them more than they have).
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-365414-100x100.png\")
Except that could be construed to be agreement to pay the debt. I wouldn't go that route.
@grithfang: He would need to receive some sort of consideration in return for it to be a valid agreement under contract law. And no, stopping the illegal harassment wouldn't count.
It shouldn't be too hard to find out who they are if you tell them you're willing to pay. Once they give you a name and address to send the money to, file your police reports and complaints with the AG.
@nakkypoo: Yeah, bad idea - while most non-written contracts tend to not be binding by the courts, it's best not to play with that fire and risk getting burned. Ask them straight up for a phone number, agent name, and company name, and once you have that simply request that the proof of debt be sent by mail to the address they have on file. Assuming it isn't yours (and they'll know it), you'll have their info and they'll likely have hung up. Google a bit if you have to in an effort to find out who these folks are, and then contact your state's Attorney General as contacting anyone who is not the debtor in an actual attempt to collect a debt (and not just skip-tracing to find the debtor) is highly illegal in all 50 states under the FDCPA.
@wcnghj: Call 'em back from a payphone or something so they can't trace it back to you and claim you agreed to pay them so it's your debt now.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-109236-100x100.png\")
You aren't responsible for your parent's debt. When my father died he had quite a bit of debt that companies called me about and I simply told them he was dead. They even sent us bills and regardless of what it was we would mark \"Deceased: Return To Sender\" on anything with his name and dropped it back in the mailbox. Eventually all of the mail and calls stopped.
If you have a camcorder put it, all charged up, near the phone, hopefully with a speaker function, and push record as you very clearly say you are monitoring the call to protect everyones' interests and then politely tell them to obey the law and please stop calling you. If they say you can't record them also politely tell them to remember THEY called you not the other way around, insist on their names and any and all reference or account numbers they feel give them power to collect from you.
Not only will you look very good in court they stand a good chance of being charged with extortion.
First, make sure whether or not you live in a one-party or two-party state if you're going to record the call. If you're in a one-party state, you don't need to say anything to the other person. If you're in a two person-state all you have to do is tell them that you're recording, if they continue to remain on the phone afterwards, that can be construed as them having given consent to record them.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-877141-100x100.png\")
@Powerlurker: To avoid getting caught in the two-party consent laws (like we have in Maryland), you can record yourself talking on the phone, being sure to repeat back everything they say.
@MikeM_inMD:
Hey, I've got a question about that. I've never recorded a call; but here it is incase.
I live in Tennessee. As far as I know, it's a one-party state (only one person, me, needs to consent). Let's say I call or someone calls me who is in a two-party state. Do I need to notify that person (I know they have to notify me)?
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-86968-100x100.png\")
@Nascar24Dude: I think it would depend on what court you went to. The consent rules are rules of evidence.
Let's suppose a collector in MD (2 party) calls you in TN (1 party)
If the lawsuit is in MD, you would have needed 2 party consent. If the lawsuit is in TN, one party. If federal, 1 party.
So if you do a FDCPA suit, that's federal court, and the judge would allow 1 party consent.
@huadpe:
So, let's say I, in TN, call someone in MD; or let's say someone in MD calls me. If, for whatever reason, the suit were to proceed in MD, I would have to get the other's consent for me to record (even though my state says only one party consent is required). Is this correct?
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-318831-100x100.png\")
@Nascar24Dude: Most corporations train their call centers (both in-house and outsourced) to hang up if you say you are recording the call. While this would tend to get the bill collector off the phone with you, they'll just call back later.
The way I deal with the problem, is to say something like \"I live in a two-party consent state, and I don't want you to be guilty of a felony, so since your company's recorded message states the call may be recorded, I give my consent that it may be recorded as well.\"
This notifies the person on the other end of the fact that their company might be recording, and that there is now two-party consent if they remain on the line...without actually stating that I might be recording as well. I do this as the first thing I say after the CSR picks up and gives their greeting.
IANAL, but it seems to me that this would satisfy the law, even in two-party states.
@Difdi: Hmm... if the bill collector is already recording the call... would additional consent even be required for a second recording?
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-425645-100x100.png\")
@Nascar24Dude: IANAL, but if I understand the law correctly, calls crossing state lines default to Federal law when it comes to making recordings of the conversation. Federal law requires only one party (i.e. you) to consent to the recording. I'm sure any lawyerly types will be able to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's the way it works.
I was told by an attorney (but not one who specialized in telecom law) that BOTH parties had to be in a one-party state if you're not getting consent.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-83382-100x100.png\")
put a notice in the local paper as follows.
I am not responsible for any debts other than my own. Signed- you and your address
Not sure if that still works or not but I have heard over the past years it does.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-19751-100x100.png\")
@consumerd: What exactly would that accomplish?
Legally, it does nothing because the OP either did or did not enter into a legal contract. If he did not, then putting up a notice changes nothing. If he did, he cannot get out of the contract by putting up a notice in the newspaper.
As for keeping the collection agencies away, why would they suddenly be bothered by some notice in a newspaper they probably do not read?
I asked a couple of the same questions you guys are thinking and what I heard was if you put out a legal notice it doesn't matter what they try to do and what they gain information wise they can't use it period. Supposedly it's a shield from what I got, and the way it was explained to me.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-422892-100x100.png\")
One thing no one has mentioned that may be needed here, depending on how out of control and incapable of dealing responsibly with their own finances they are, is a conservatorship for the parents. If the son were declared his parents' guardian/conservator because a court declared them incompetent to maintain their finances any longer due to their age and health, he could take appropriate steps to clean up this mess, and keep it from getting any worse (since they couldn't spend money without his permission as the conservator). It would keep him protected from responsibility for the debts personally just like he is now but he'd have more ability to protect his parents from themselves.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-316306-100x100.png\")
@NancyNally: Thank you for bringing this up. Additionally, one might encourage your parents to get a physical; the physician may be able to determine if their cognitive abilities have decompensated. Remember, even if your parent's have not signed a written release of information, there is nothing that prohibits the doctor from receiving information about their well being.
@NancyNally: This thought crossed my mind also. We had to do this to my grandmother. She had given all of her savings and had started giving her monthly expense money to the 700 Club or Jim Baker, it was one of those televangelists in the early 80's. Relatives found out when she wasn't able to pay utility bills. These crooks were still calling trying to shake her down for money as we were packing her things to move her into assisted living. She was simply too feeble and gullible at that point in life to make financial decisions.
@NancyNally: I was about to say. Thank you for your good point.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to do this for parents one day. They're already freewheeling spenders, and I'm afraid age will make it worse.
Also, they don't let their children know anything about their finances. I'm 36 and have no idea what their income might be.
@NancyNally: My grandmother has done this for a far-flung family member (as in, her relationship is pretty distant to us) and as an added twist, because said-family member's only income is social security, my grandmother sent a letter to all of her creditors saying that \"she's indigent, she's not paying you. T.S. Buh-bye.\" (more politely of course) My father did some digging online and apparently this is a legal way for a power-of-attorney type person to handle such debts. i don't know all the details on this but it's something for the OP to think about if he goes this route.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-469751-100x100.png\")
People have no business lending money to old geezers on Social Security. How did they think they were going to get paid back? Given that people who handle large amounts of money usually aren't stupid, my bet is this is a finance scam, like the one credit card companies pull on college students, betting that Mommy and Daddy will make everything all better when Junior gets overextended.
I'd just come up with some more inventive methods of telling these collection people to fuck off and die.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-248249-100x100.png\")
@HurtsSoGood: My method: the setting on my G1 that sends specific callers directly to voicemail without ringing my phone, and Youmail ditchmail.
They always get your voicemail, and always get told to fuck off and hung up on.
@HurtsSoGood:
They lend the money to people with the assumption that they'll either be able to milk them for interest payments, or more likely be able to harass some sucker that has the misfortune to be related to them, but doesn't know what is or is not legal, into paying the debt off, hopefully after milking the interest for a while.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-159466-100x100.png\")
i just annoy the shit out of the collectors that call for \"dante\" every few months by telling them to hold on and then blasting the fuck out of them with drum and bass. I've already told the same people many times over several years that there is no dante here. if they can't listen to that then I'm sure they won't be able to hear dj hazard - meat bubbles on full volume.
@HurtsSoGood: You guys have it all wrong - you want to make them miserable! The ultimate solution for that is Yoko Ono.
@trujunglist: Just tell them that Dante is in the ninth circle at the moment and can't come to the phone.
Break the law. Be a bad-ass.
Go ahead. What can they do about it?
Record the telephone call. Tell them you are doing so and continue to record the call when they object.
Publish the recording any where you like.
The ONLY way they can file criminal charges against you is if they properly identify themselves to law enforcement.... and now you have their name etc.
Offer to pay them... and then mail a check for $0.01 and note the penny is payment in full. In order to pay them you would need to provide you with an address, account number etc. When they receive your dinky payment in full check you will be sure to hear from their people. With another set of names and addresses.
Get the idea? Make they reveal themselves to you in a way that is hard to deny.
In the mean time, feel free to be obnoxious, rude and downright vulgar to the caller. What are they going to do, file a police report because you asked their bra size?
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-396206-100x100.png\")
@StanTheManDean: You don't necessarily need permission from anyone to record calls coming into your own phone line. Many states are \"one party consent\" states. In these states (including mine) you don't NEED their consent to record their call - because obviously you are one of the parties of the conversation and YOU consent. Even if your state is a two-party consent state, all you have to do is have a second person (over 21) pick up an extension and viola - two consenting parties.
@MissGayle: Two party consent does not mean that if there are more than two parties you only need two to consent. It's just the short hand name. Really it means all party consent.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-371007-100x100.png\")
@StanTheManDean:
\"Offer to pay them... and then mail a check for $0.01 and note the penny is payment in full. \"
Oh dear GOD this is the SINGLE WORST THING YOU CAN DO!!!
Sending them ANY MONEY AT ALL, and \"saying you will pay them\" implies that you admit responsibility for their debt, and puts you on the hook for whichever debt you do this with .... DO NOT DO THIS. I cannot emphasize this enough!
@StanTheManDean: Umm... You really don't want to give those jerks your ckecking account information...
@sonneillon: @sonneillon:
You can even say it in a way they think is a question about them recording you:
\"I am recording for quality assurance purposes?\"
\"Yes\"
Never fails.
Same thing with getting the address:
\"If I had an address, I could send a payment if it was my debt\"
Enough conditionals there to choke a mule.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-98962-100x100.png\")
I always wondered about setting a shady collection agency against another shady collection agency. It could be fun.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-793795-100x100.png\")
I have the same type problem with my 22 year old stepdaughter. She has never crossed a bridge she did not burn and we have debt collectors call us weekly.I have had car title people come to the house and tow her car off that she left here ( I guess to hide it ) and payday loan people even come to my house looking for her. We don't know what to do to stop it and it is very embarrassing in our small town. No matter what we say to her she tells us to mind her own business but people keep giving her credit and she keeps using us for a ref.
It sucks but at least noone has come to our work places.
@frodolives35: Assuming you're not a cosigner, and the creditor has a valid address and/or phone number of the debtor, it is illegal for them to contact you about the debtor's debts, in any way, period. You can't do anything about your deadbeat stepdaughter paying her debts, but you do have legal rights under the FDCPA - if they contact you in violation of this act, contact your state's AG and consider getting a lawyer.
@frodolives35: You ought to say something to the effect of \"When you stop using our address, then it will stop being our business.\"
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-824330-100x100.png\")
Frodo,
As cold as this sounds but maybe you should change the locks on the doors. I have step-daughters I love more than I do life itself. So my comment doesn't come lightly. I pray the best for you and your family. Don't ever stop loving her no matter what course of action you are forced to take.
I just started working for a company collecting student loan debts. I can call a reference for information, but not for the debt. I can't even tell the person why. I can say its a personal business reason. The FDCPA is clear on what a debt collector can do and can't do. My company enhanced the rules to better protect the borrower. I think the companies that are calling you are in violation of federal law and you may want to consider contacting a civil litigation attorney. You say you aren't sure who they are? Subpoena your phone records from the phone company. File charges in civil court. Collection companies understand money, period. Remember this: the collector can be held financially responsible as an individual just like their debt collection company will be held responsible.
@Keliken:
\"I can call a reference for information, but not for the debt...... I can say its a personal business reason\"
As a business owner, I receive your telephone calls all the time. You are trying to track down one of my employees, an ex-employee, the child of an employee. Maybe even a current employee.
You play games. \"personal business reasons\".
Yea, right. Because you play games, I can play games.
Let me give you a hint. Employees have a private telephone number they give to their friends, family and important contacts. Posing as their long lost best friend and calling the main switchboard number doesn't do you much good.
Another hint: Lying to the switchboard operator and then the HR dept, trying to verify employment doesn't do you much good. We only respond to written requests.... AFTER the employee authorizes us to respond to your request.
You get to play games and lie. We don't tell you squat and we will be damned if we will let you speak to an employee.
@Keliken: Not only that, but as to subsection 804, you can't contact them more than once about the debt, period, unless they give you permission or (basically) you think they've lied to you.
I actually kind of like having one or two collectors on my ass, it's been a while but I used to have a lot of fun seeing how long I could string them along on the phone.
\"Mister Blah? Yes he's here, let me get him for you. It'll just be a moment\"
5 minutes later
\"Hi are you still there? He's on his way now... OK here he i-- Whoops! He just spilled his drink, let me set you down for a moment and I'll clean it up while he takes your call\"
2 minutesw later
\"OK sorry about that here he comes... OK handing you to him now\"
5 minutes later
\"Oh dear hold on someone came to the door, should just be a moment... what was your name again? Oh I see... and your last name? Hmmm... sir if you can't identify yourself I just wouldn't feel right taking your call... No I'm not him but I... I see... sir if you can't be polite I'm afraid he won't be taking your call\"
fake talk in the background, sound slightly concerned that the person on the phone has poor manners
\"yes I'm sorry but it's been decided that if you can't behave then he won't be taking your call. Perhaps another day sir\"
That was always the best part of course, if they actually stayed on the line until the end. If I was in a poor mad, bad traffic etc I'd just shout verbal abuse, figuring they deserved it being in the job they were in. It's nice to have a punching bag whose feelings you don't have to care about.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-171970-100x100.png\")
@celeb8: if they're following the law, you are the one being the jackass.
the economy sucks. people have to feed families. at times, that means being the collector.
as for that whole punching bag bit, best watch out for karma cuz it does come around one day.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-504562-100x100.png\")
@the_wiggle: Who gives a shit if they have a family to feed? They are the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth, and they deserved, NAY, demand to be verbally abused to the fullest.
If they don't like it, they should quit.
@the_wiggle: They were not following the law. That's the whole point. These are either scumbags, or they work for scumbags. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't feel compelled to be nice the them either.
@the_wiggle: I'm following the law too, right? I mean, this is all assuming that they follow the law as well, but if we're both following the law why would I be the jackass? They use means of legal harassment, I use means of legal harassment. I guess we can just all agree to be jackasses and this way they get to \"feed their families\".
Do you still work collections?
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If you do file a police report they are usually able to get call records even for blocked calls. We had an issue with harassing phone calls a few years back and we filed a police report. They gave us an 800 number to call immediately after a harassing call and they would be able to find out the source and do something about it.
You can also do what is called a call trace with almost all telcos. I'm not sure of the code, depending on who you are with; you do it after one of these debtors call. To obtain the records, you must file a police report and obtain the records from the telco. This will give you who is calling. hen you can proceed to collect on violations on the TCPA act, as well as debt collection laws.
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Thanks so much for this, Consumerist. I can feel your pain, Jay. In my case, it was my mom taking out loans for my college that she is totally responsible for (I have others on me that I am currently paying off). Somehow they got my work number in college and called me on the weekend and flustered me and it took a while for me to realize this was not my debt. I had to eventually had to file a police report for harassment. It may not have done much good, and the cops told me since the collectors were in another state there wasn't much they could do except take the report. But at least I got something on the record.
They still send me threatening letters occasionally. I tear them up and throw them away. If they had any legal recourse, they would have sued me or arrested me a long time ago rather than just threatening me. They're so full of crap-I tried to tell them I was going to the police once many years ago and the girl on the line said \"OH yeah well we've already talked to the police and they said you should be arrested!\"
@lalaland13: Debtors prison is sooooo 1800's ;)
You can NOT be jailed for debt ... for using fraud to get INTO debt yes ... but not for legitimate financial debt :)
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Jay, I'm sure your parents are wonderful people, but you should check to see if they're truly putting you as just a reference or a co-signer (i.e. they're forging your signature). If they're forcing you into being a co-signer, you've got much bigger family and legal problems. Other have stated it, but I'll summarize:
1) Gather all the names, numbers, times of call, etc. you can. If they won't tell you, tell them the law requires it. If they still won't, trick them into giving information by stating that you need to know the information to send the debt. Don't ever give your finanical information.
2) If the state law allows, record the conversation. Get their permission if you need to. If they won't give it, do as some have suggested and record yourself, but repeat everything they say.
3) Start throwing out laws and allegations. Tell them their practices are illegal under the FDCPA and that you will be referring this matter to your local AG and a private attorney. Remind them that each violation costs them.
4) If they persist, go to your local AG.
My guess is that once you start asking to record the conversation and mentioning laws, they will stop, as its their cue that they're dealing someone who knows better. Good Luck!
Here is what OP should do.....
record the call, be as sad a sack as you can be talk about the stress of the calls etc.
then play the recording for your parents.
and keep playing each recording for them every time you get a call.
in the mean time ask the phone reps for account numbers, products purchased
mailing addresses and of course amount due on the original bill and any fees as well as a name and number to call back if you have difficulty GETTING YOUR PARENTS TO MAKE PAYMENTS.
DO NOT SAY YOU WILL PAY BECAUSE THAT IS A CONTRACT -NO LEGAL TRAINING HERE-
whatever you or your parents do about this do not use their primary checking account to pay.
open a new one and make deposits just for those payments so the scum can't do a reach around grab of any other money.
treat your parents like the children they have become.
I had a coworker who was being harrassed at work for a debt by another employee of the same corporation. After several calls of abuse, I came over to my worker's office.
I had the coworker put them on speakerphone and told them quite firmly that they were violating the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, that we have technology to identify them and if they call again, legal action will be taken.
No more calls.
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I think this is a serious issue in our society. This situation may fall under a \"elderly abuse\" status. There are many predators whose income depend on defrauding vulnerable elderly people. If I were me, I would write my attorney general as this is just wrong and there may be actions you can take to ease your parents situation. One example would be to renegotiate some of this debt, reduce interest rates etc. I would work on trying to get them out of the debts completely under the circumstances you might which could include having them file for bankruptcy. Credit companies are real bastards (what a surprise!) and target the elderly who can often be unaware of what they are actually agreeing to -- everything is done over the phone. Good Luck!
THe same thing happened to me when my father died. What really hurt me was that he lied to me repeatedly. My brother in law went through his finances and found that he took out three mortgages on his home, had fifteen credit cards maxed out and his total debt was over half a million dollars. He just kept borrowing, and yes, when he died, the credit card companies and Wells Fargo called me demanding repayment. I told them point blank they weren't getting a penny, I would go into bankruptcy. And that was what I was forced into. I was lucky I could go bankrupt before Congress changed the law. That stopped them.
@clarkbarr: I don't know how to break this to you, but you are not responsible for deceased parents' debts. Your bankruptcy was probably unnecessary. You can simply tell collectors that he is deceased and they need to collect against his estate. Sorry, I hope this was in the distant past and you've started to rebuild your credit.
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@rhobite: 2nded- there is a whole class of post death debt collectors who try and pyschologically make the family think they are responsible for debts that the dead person solely had.
As long as the debt was only in the deseased's name (with no cosigners) poof it is gone. Now that said, you do have to relinquish items that may have secured it such as for a car loan needs to have the car given back to the bank etc
Every time they call, ask for a mailing address to send the payment. Then mail them the following certified mail return receipt requested.
Debt Collector's Name
Address
City, State Zip
Re: Account Number
Dear Debt Collector:
Pursuant to my rights under federal debt collection laws, I am requesting that you cease and desist communication with me, as well as my family and friends, in relation to this and all other alleged debts you claim I owe.
You are hereby notified that if you do not comply with this request, I will immediately file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission and the [your state here] Attorney General's office. Civil and criminal claims will be pursued.
Sincerely,
Your Name
How will their debt effect him when they die? Is there anything he needs to be sure is in their will so that no one can come after him then?
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@mhutt: If he's a co-signer, he is responsible for the debt. If he's not a co-signer, he is not personally responsible for the debt. That holds true no matter what side of the grave his parents are on.
If the parents die and there is no estate, the creditors are just out of luck. If there is an estate, they could file a claim against the estate and let probate court determine which of your parents' property gets sold to satisfy the claim.
And some creditors may very well decide to not file a claim.
Or they'll just sucker the survivors into paying a debt they don't owe. [www.nytimes.com]
Disclaimer: IANAL
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Reference phone numbers are taken in case the deadbeat skips town without notifying the creditor of his new phone number and address. The credit has the right to call the reference to find out where and how to reach the deadbeat. That is it. This fellow in question needs to do what I do, monitor all calls via voice mail and caller ID.
To stop harassing phone calls that are illegally made, go online and find several phone number lookup sites. Usually you can do this by just putting the phone number into your browser. Some of these sites have the service provider for the phone number listed (not the company renting the line from them, but the actual phone company who ultimately owns the line). Contact their service provider and complain that they are violating the terms of service on their contract, in which they are required by law to sign that they do not intend to use the phone line for illegal purposes. This usually gets your number removed from the collection agency's computer promptly. They could lose their ability to have phone service if such a complaint is made against them. Also, you can complain both to the police department and to the FCC that the service provider is \"allowing\" their client to use the phone lines in an illegal manner. You don't have to know the company name of the collector - you just have to know the phone number and the parent service provider company that owns it, and that information is available for free online. Have fun!
I discovered the joy of VOIP in it's fullest, with all the flexibility of forwarding, and blackholing calls.
If you know who they are you can forward a caller ID to their own main number, their own fax number or the FCC... Try to get a CEO private cell phone for fun and lols.
Blackholing is also known as virtual ring - selected numbers calling wil just get a ring, ring, forever and perpetually.
There us also a screener for Unknown Callers, where they have to identify themselves, and you get to approve after hearing their recorded identification. Known people can just key in a pas number and get in direct. Valid callers WILL wait, telemarketers and other idiots opn tight outbound metrics will not bother.
It all depends, of course, on your VOIP provider. But you can transfer your current phone number, buy a dry line, and with cell phone covering power emergencies and the like, it's a solution that worked great for me - I barely get any spam calls these days, usually when I pick up without looking.
I use Primus, which isn't perfect but for $25 a month with all the features, including hardware, is great value.YMMV.
As for recording and tracking, look up the Phone Valet hardware/software solution. It takes messages on a computer, but it's FAR more than just that: I have a permanent record of all inbound and outbound calls made on my line for the past 6 years, including message archives and recorded conversations in your format of choice and all caller ID info, even for non-message missed inbound calls.
Keep a whistle by the phone. Tell the person not to call again. Use whistle. Hang up. Repeat as necessary.
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I am currently trying to help a mentally ill relative get out from under debt he ran up during a delusional episode. Man, what a mess. I'm currently trying to figure out if I should have him stiff all this creditors. If any of them had checked his credit reports they would have known he was a poor risk.
His only income is an SS disability check that barely covers essentials. Can debt collectors attach Social Security income?
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I had Chrysler financial calling me about a relative's late car payments. I told them on the very first call that I didn't want to be called ever again, and the gal assured me they'd take my name off the account. I continued to get calls and every time I'd remind them that I had already asked to have my name off the account, and they'd claim to have \"no record of my request\". On the final call, I was pissed... I raised my voice, dropped an f-bomb, and told them I'd sue them for harrasment if they called me again. It wasn't pretty...but it worked.
You are not responsible for their debts. Their estate of course will be and if you end up as executor you will have to pay the debts out of the assets of their estate but not out of your own.
We had this problem when one of my uncles died suddenly a couple years ago. His sister (my aunt), who is the only one in my family with an financial savvy handled his affairs. He didn't have any savings or property so it was fairly easy. The creditors kept calling and mailing of course but they were told there was no money in the estate to pay them.
You can *NEVER* under any circumstances be held liable for another persons debt (unless you are married).
I would laugh at them over the phone, and tell them to send someone to arrest me if they are such tough guys.
Have we tried simply instructing them to not call you anymore? From what I read, it doesn't become illegal until you've actually told them to stop calling. Also instruct them to mail you proof that you are responsible for the debt. If they don't have your address, don't give it to them; that's their problem.
If the number is blocked from caller ID then just don't answer................
this type of thing is addressed in great detail at collectorsexposed dot com
Similar circumstance. I haven't acted on it, would welcome advice:
Two weeks ago got a call from a \"Van Ru\" corp. that turned out to be a debt collector but told me they were calling about a \"job reference\" for my next-door neighbor. Neighbor is a nice person though had not asked me to be a reference. So first I was asked if I knew next door neighbor (yes) then what was neighbor's phone number? I thought that was a bit odd... wouldn't a job prospect know the prospect's phone number?
So I said I didn't know it (true) and they then said they were so-and-so at Van Ru and asked me to have neighbor call them.
Looked them up, a collection agency out of Florida. Haven't said a thing to neighbor, who I presume would be mortified to know that collection agency scuzzes have outed neighbor.
What do I do?
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Thank YOU! I have this exact problem going on. I just never answer the phone anymore and I turned the ringer down :(
@spankdidly: Same thing happened to me when a sibling went overboard in the debt department. I hadn't found Consumerist yet at that point but I AM fairly cautious with money matters. This sterling collection company wouldn't even tell me what company they were representing...
@spankdidly: This is actually why I quit using a landline.
I feel like maybe the TelCos should lobby against these kinds of practices because I've heard of a bunch of people abandoning their phones since there's simply no other solution.
@spankdidly: I'd love to get these calls and the opportunity to collect a nice settlement sum from all the violations. Think creatively in this economy people!
@spankdidly: Send them a cease and desist/ unknown debt letter Certified Mail Return Receipt.
They'll stop.
use creditboards.com for reference