var json_comments = new Array("
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TurboWagon00
October 7, 2009 10:32 PM
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Hasn't this already been hashed through ? Shouldn't a CHP officer know that ? Tragic but completely avoidable.

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DaveDidNotPay
October 9, 2009 4:53 AM
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I'll never look at a push-button ignition as \"cool\" again.

Maybe the driver didn't remember his training- police officers make mistakes and poor judgements too you know.

Maybe there was some mechanical failure that prevented the car from shifting into neutral (I'm curious to hear more about the 2007 case mentioned earlier in this thread).

Maybe the driver's first instinct was to turn off the key since that would have been better than nothing (manual steering at high speed is adequate and he would have had some degree of braking power). If he reached for a key and suddenly realized there was not one there I can understand a debilitating panic setting in immediately.

It wasn't his car. Have you ever found yourself driving a car and not knowing where the horn was? Have you found yourself doing that while NEEDING to press the horn? Seconds seem to tick by much quicker than normal. Suddenly even the simplest of decisions become very difficult to carry out when something so fundamental is changed. Mistakes are easy to make.

found myself terrified once years ago and on the phone with a 911 operator. She had to explain a simple set of directions to me more than four times. Each time when I realized she finished I asked her to start over again because my mind was racing and I had no clue what she just said- adrenaline may increase our reflexes but it does not necessarily improve our decision making.

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TurboWagon00
October 8, 2009 5:54 PM
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@TurboWagon00: Sorry folks, didn't mean to come across as insensitive. The technical details behind this accident were thoroughly hashed on that *other* site, you know, the one with the cars. Got my Gawker sites confused with my former-Gawker sites.

Oh, and to provide closure, Toyota's official \"fix\" - zip-ties. [jalopnik.com]

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zyodei
October 8, 2009 7:30 AM
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@TurboWagon00: What gets me is this. What the hell was his rational calling 911? What could they possibly do?


It's certainly radically different, but there are shades here of the woman calling 911 because she didn't get her McNuggets. Expecting that the gracious overlord in the sky can swoop down and make everything better. Sure, it was a panic situation, and in panic situation, people revert to their instincts..which, if you're a state trooper, are to call 911. Those precious seconds would have been better spent, that's all I'm saying.

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From the cubicle of PGibbons
October 9, 2009 10:56 PM
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@zyodei: And, I hope he was not holding the cell phone in his hand, as that's supposedly illegal in many places. This is one of those instances where a couple hands on the wheel would be very useful.

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LadySiren is murdering her kids with HFCS and processed cheese
October 8, 2009 1:41 PM
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@zyodei: How about getting some fellow troopers out there to clear a path, giving the poor guy behind the wheel time to try and figure out how to get the accelerator unstuck, as well as preventing other drivers from becoming an unintentional target.

And to TurboWagon, way to be insensitive. At least the trooper had the presence of mind to try and warn public safety folks that he had a serious problem. I'm guessing his family was glued to their seats, terrified; that alone would be a huge distraction to even the most trained professional.

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Bitmapped
October 9, 2009 5:31 PM
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@LadySiren: If you listened to the call, he was approaching the end of a freeway. Not exactly much of a path to clear there.

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LadySiren is murdering her kids with HFCS and processed cheese
October 9, 2009 5:44 PM
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@Bitmapped: I was probably mistaken but I took that to mean he was heading towards surface streets. Still, I know having my family screaming in terror behind me would be totally distracting.

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Veeber
October 8, 2009 12:32 AM
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@TurboWagon00: Because your brain works differently when you are in a highly charged emotional state. As much as you would like to say \"Of course I would have done that\" you are saying that when you are in a calm rationale situation.

Research that I've seen is specific to arousal and how we may claim we will use safe sex practices prior to arousal but drastically change our thinking in the heat of the moment.

And good God, they died. Do you feel like trying and seeing if you can pull this off?

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WhoSaysWhat?
October 7, 2009 10:42 PM
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@TurboWagon00: @TurboWagon00:

I don't know about you, but having been in a slightly similar situation, I wouldn't have been able to think clearly enough to even call 911. I knew that the truck pulling out into the intersection in front of me would hurt or kill me (thankfully, I'm obviously alive), and I didn't have time to do anything. I was paralyzed in fear, and holding on for dear life. I can imagine that a state trooper, though trained, would do the same thing. Especially if his family were with him. At least he called 911, which allowed rescue to come quicker for those in the other vehicle.

I really don't think blame should be thrown around in this case. It seems pretty clear to me.

Yes, he could have downshifted into neutral. How do we know he didn't try? I don't think we can put him at fault for this tragic accident, and I don't think we should try. I believe that this was Toyota's fault, simply because they knew there were flaws and did nothing.

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fxsoap
October 8, 2009 7:34 PM
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@WhoSaysWhat?:
So it's the person who sells the hair dryer that should tell you not to use it while in the bath tub?

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GearheadGeek
October 7, 2009 10:46 PM
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@WhoSaysWhat?: You know he didn't put it in neutral because that disconnects the engine from the drive wheels. That much is clear.

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Moosenogger
October 9, 2009 4:01 AM
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@GearheadGeek: Wouldn't he be unable to shift into anything other than Drive, since he had no control of his brakes? My car won't let me shift gears unless I'm stepping on the brake (I found this out when a censor in my car malfunctioned and it was stuck in Park.)

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Bitmapped
October 9, 2009 5:37 PM
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@Moosenogger: Brake-shift interlock is a feature for getting out of parking gear only. It keeps people from accidentally bumping the gearshift and having the car take off rolling.

You can shift between the others without having your foot on the brake.

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GearheadGeek
October 9, 2009 5:26 PM
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@Moosenogger: Your car won't let you shift out of park without pushing on the brake, but there's never a lockout between Drive and Neutral, for safety reasons. There may be a gate or you may have to push a button to shift into reverse, or park, or a lower gear, but Drive-to-Neutral is a \"panic path\" like the push-to-exit hardware on fire doors and other exits from public spaces.

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maines19
October 18, 2009 2:53 PM
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@GearheadGeek: Interesting you should mention the push-to-exit hardware on fire doors in public places. Doors to public places didn't have to open outward until the Iroquois Theater fire in Chicago in which hundreds of people died because the doors opened inward, and everyone crushed toward the doors so they couldn't be opened.

Things often don't change until people die because, as several have said, in a panic situation, people don't think clearly.

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Moosenogger
October 10, 2009 5:14 AM
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@GearheadGeek: Ah, alright. Thank you for explaining it. I've never had to shift into neutral while in drive, so I didn't know it was possible.

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Biggbrother
October 8, 2009 1:50 PM
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@GearheadGeek: The same thing happened to another California man in 2007 in a 2007 Camry. He said that he could not get the car out of drive into neutral, nor could he turn the car off, since it had keyless start and pressing the button did nothing.

His car slammed into another car and killed a father of five.

So I think it;s plausible that with the car revving at the redline, it might be difficult to get it out of Drive.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 2:12 PM
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@Biggbrother:


It's a lot more plausible that he panicked--*all* cars can be shifted into neutral at any speed--it works the same way at 120 mph as it does at 3 mph, so, no, it isn't plausible at all.

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chauncy that billups
October 8, 2009 3:04 PM
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@treimel: Yes, but why didn't the 911 dispatcher tell him to rock it into neutral? That's the first thing I would have done. then, parking brake.

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WhoSaysWhat?
October 7, 2009 10:50 PM
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@GearheadGeek: What I meant was that there could have been a malfunction with the gearshift because of the speed other factor. I've never tried to put a car in neutral while going extremely fast or while holding the gas pedal down, so I'm just speculating. But, it seems quite plausible to me.

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Rachacha
October 8, 2009 6:52 PM
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@WhoSaysWhat?: On an automatic transmission you can switch between drive and neutral, as well as between drive and any lower gears (3, 2, 1 or H, L). I have done this while driving in mountains or hilly terrain (rather than burning your brakes, you downshift and let your engine and transmission slow you down). Now if you are doing 120MPH, your engine is probably running at around 3000-4000RPM so switching to a lower gear or neutral may blow your engine or transmission, but doing that is always better than running the vehicle into a large stationary object, or driving into a grassy median at 120MPH.


Based on the ausio from the call, the driver probably had the car in gear and slammed on the brakes which caused them to overheat and rendered them ineffective, therefore the best course of action is to shift to neutral, and depress the brakes. If you have no brakes, shift to a lower gear, try your brakes or parking brake, and if that fails, ease yourself either onto a median or ease yourself into a guard rail (sideswipe it)and let the friction slow you down.

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SharkD
October 9, 2009 3:46 PM
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@Rachacha:

...ease yourself either onto a median or ease yourself into a guard rail...
Wow, that's the most irresponsible statement I've ever read on the Consumerist.

Transitioning from asphalt onto grass at speed is like driving on ice. Cars will actually go faster on grass, because they're no longer rolling, they're sliding. You have almost zero traction and the slightest over-correction by the driver will send the car out of control. Likewise, any large bumps over the uneven ground of the median are very bad news.

Take Joey Hand's terrifying crash at Mid-Ohio, back in 2005, he wasn't doing any more than ~90-100 at this point.

Striking the guardrail \"slighly\" is also highly unlikely -- they're usually sitting on the grass (see above), they're rarely straight, and hitting them at any angle greater than ~5° is going to result in the car going dramatically out of control. Furthermore, the resulting damage along the driver's and/or passenger side of the vehicle may make it impossible to open the doors.

@Rachacha: I don't think my drivers' ed course even covered parallel parking and my \"official\" introduction to highway driving involved the instructor barking an order to abruptly take a right onto the shortest acceleration ramp in the area (it was the site of frequent accidents, until the interchange was completely revamped) onto I-85. Needless to say, I pedaled as hard as I could in that 3rd Gen Cavalier, as its four-banger barely managed to get up to 65 before the four of us in the car were nearly run-over by a semi doing 80.

The classroom portion included such intellectual challenges as \"how do you signal to other drivers that you intend to make a right turn,\" and \"if a school bus, in an oncoming lane, is stopped and has its red lights flashing, should you stop your car?\" Amazingly, even with the open-book, self-grading test format, some people managed to get incorrect answers.

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Chmeeee
October 8, 2009 7:01 PM
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@Rachacha: Additional good advice to keep in mind if this happens to you: don't be gentle with the brakes. Full force, hammer them into the carpet, and that should stop you no matter how much throttle is currently engaged. If you go easy on them and ride them for 20-30 seconds first, you're going to overheat them without accomplishing anything, and then the slam on the brakes theory won't work either (or the e-brake on most cars).

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dieselbug
October 8, 2009 4:00 PM
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@WhoSaysWhat?: I shifted my truck into reverse on a freeway @65 mph once. Rear end locked up, and engine stalled (I knocked it back into neutral pretty quickly!). I now know that I have that option should I be in a position where the gas pedal gets stuck. That, and turning off the ignition. Or driving the vehicle up against a guard rail to kill speed (as advised by a police defensive driving course I took in the UK a long time ago . . )

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GearheadGeek
October 7, 2009 11:38 PM
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@WhoSaysWhat?: If it were a Prius or one of certain BMW, Ferrari or Maserati models with an all-electronic shifter, that would be possible (though you could still turn off the ignition.) There aren't any Lexus models with an electronic gear selector yet, though I expect the upcoming HS250 hybrid-only model will have the same electronic switch the Prius does.

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ninjatoddler
October 8, 2009 12:10 AM
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@GearheadGeek: I believe switching off the ignition will result in brake failure with the exception of the hand-brake. In other words, do NOT switch off your car when it's moving.

Can't imagine a State Trooper won't have thought of shifting out of Drive and into Neutral or some of the lower gears afforded in the auto tranny. Must've been some kind of a lock where it won't allow you to move out of gear at a certain speed.

Regardless, this is a serious case and whoever's in charge of Toyota better be ready to point his/her finger at Jim Press.

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JustTheFax
December 1, 2009 2:12 AM
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Ninja Toddler:
Your nickname is appropriate. You are babbling nonsense. Brakes are not powered by the ignition, nor by magic, nor are they directly connected to the engine. You could simply download or buy the service manual for you car and see in detail how the system works, and then rather than babbling, you could test your theory on an empty road.

Hint number 1: If you turn off the electrical switch for the ignition with the car in gear with the car moving at common speeds (say, 45 mph) no invisible hand reaches down from the sky and removes the drive axles. Neither does said magic hand disconnect the transmission -- it doesn't even implant a demon which shits the transmission into neutral. Who could imagine that? Yup, the engine is still connected to the wheels, just like 1/2 second ago before you turned that little switch.

Hint number two: You could do yourself and everyone else on the road a real big favor: Stop driving right now, or take 30 seconds and think about how all the parts in your car are connected. That may require 30 hours catching up and what those parts are. If you have any brilliant ideas about how your car works (ohmigawd the steering wheel duznt work without the ignition1!1!), you can test that at various speeds on an empty road as well.

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Bitmapped
October 9, 2009 5:21 PM
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@ninjatoddler: You might lose the power brake booster by turning off the engine, although I'm guessing you'd probably still even have that since the engine would still be turning fast and generating a vacuum.

Worst case scenario: You have brakes, just not power-assisted. You'd have to jam on the pedal.

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GearheadGeek
October 8, 2009 1:04 AM
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@ninjatoddler: You are incorrect in both cases. It's quite intentional that there is never a lockout from drive into neutral, specifically to make it as easy as possible to get the car into neutral in a case like this. Switching off the engine will eventually result in having no POWER brakes, so you'll have to push a lot harder on the pedal, but the brakes would still work unless something else was also wrong with the car.

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ninjatoddler
October 8, 2009 7:35 AM
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@GearheadGeek: @sharkd:

Since neither of you own a Lexus, you can't make the assumption that since an automatic you drove allows you to shift from DRIVE to a manual gear option or NEUTRAL at high speeds, it's the same case for the now deceased State Trooper.

I myself was in a mid-90s Isuzu Trooper which lost all braking ability at roughly 40MPH. The driver had the sense to move the auto shifter from D to 3 and then to 2 and then 1 and then a cushioning slam into a wall.

Sure the auto tranny on the Isuzu Trooper allowed for shifting at 40MPH but would that have been different at a higher rate of speed ... say at 80 miles or 90?

I guess I don't know and haven't seen any form of evidence from anyone else here .. and don't want to find out which is why I still drive cars with manual gearboxes.

What is the model of this car? My assumption is it is a 2007 Lexus ES.

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Bitmapped
October 9, 2009 5:30 PM
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@ninjatoddler: Being able to always shift into neutral is a safety feature, intended specifically for reasons like this.

Downshifting with a stuck accelerator is a bad idea because you're still going to be going full-throttle. Neutral is far better because then you'll just have the momentum keeping you moving rather than the engine providing more power.

Downshifting to get engine braking is a solution if you're trying to reduce/avoid brakepad usage, like if you're in the mountains.

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PølάrβǽЯ
October 9, 2009 1:26 AM
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@ninjatoddler: The NTSB requires cars to be able to be shifted into neutral from any gear with no safety switches or locks to prevent it. There is no transmission on any modern production vehicle in the US that can't simply be instantly put into neutral.

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Chmeeee
October 8, 2009 3:21 PM
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@ninjatoddler: \"Since neither of you own a Lexus, you can't make the assumption that since an automatic you drove allows you to shift from DRIVE to a manual gear option or NEUTRAL at high speeds, it's the same case for the now deceased State Trooper.\"


Toyota's own press release indicated that drivers should shift into neutral should this occur.


@CarbonFiberFootprint: \"Putting your car into reverse in an attempt to recover an ice induced slide is FAR from the most effective way to regain control... unless you are in an airplane or boat. \"


If you are in an ice induced slide in an airplane or boat, you have bigger problems.

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The Porkchop Express
October 8, 2009 3:52 PM
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@Chmeeee: well, to be fair, it could happen with a grounded plane. as for the boat...airboat? not that you would be on one when it was cold enough for ice.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 1:25 PM
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@ninjatoddler:


Tell you what--if you can find me *any* automobile that is incapable by design of being shifted into neutral at *any* speed, you can name your price, I'll pay it.

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bonzombiekitty
October 8, 2009 11:53 AM
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@ninjatoddler: To my knowledge, there's nothing, minus a mechanical failure, that would prevent you from shifting to neutral in a manual transmission, or shifting from R to N or D to N in an automatic precisely for this sort of situation. You might not be able to switch to a lower gear at certain rates of speed in an automatic (but I doubt it, I'd expect it to kick over to neutral if there's a problem).

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ChickenMcTest
October 7, 2009 11:33 PM
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@WhoSaysWhat?: You can always shift into neutral. Your rate of speed has nothing to do with gear shifting.

Driving a manual transmission car on the freeway would be impossible if you couldn't shift into neutral at any time.

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dadelus
October 7, 2009 10:40 PM
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@TurboWagon00: Agreed, you would think a Hwy Patrol officer would know how to handle a vehicle better then that. I had something similar happen to me as a teenager and I was on the side of the road and had the car off within seconds of realizing my accelerator was stuck.

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From the cubicle of PGibbons
October 9, 2009 10:52 PM
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@dadelus: As a veteran of many old junkers in my youth up to today, I ran into this sort of thing many times. However, 1968 Fords were a little simpler to understand too - especially when I was the one that messed up the linkage - just a simple cable attached to a cam.

These Lexus models are probably activated by laser beams and nuclear fusion or something. They ought to be, considering the pricetags of them....

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TheSkaAssassin - College Man
October 7, 2009 11:03 PM
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@dadelus:
It took me getting into one of these situations to learn what to do. I took drivers ed and all they tell you is hit the e-break and aim for something soft.

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mythago
October 7, 2009 10:58 PM
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@dadelus: Psst, there is no Golden Poo-equivalent trophy on Consumerist for 'who can come up with the most ridiculous, callous OP-blaming comment'.

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your new nemesis
October 7, 2009 10:50 PM
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@dadelus: I've been driving on icey roads and had the brakes lock up on me a few times. I actually almost drove into my moms garage because of this, but I managed to get the car into reverse and slow it way down. Luckily for me it was a beater car, but there are options to most of these types of problems.

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CarbonFiberFootprint
October 8, 2009 11:31 AM
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@skizsrodt: Putting your car into reverse in an attempt to recover an ice induced slide is FAR from the most effective way to regain control... unless you are in an airplane or boat.

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Chmeeee
October 8, 2009 3:13 AM
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@skizsrodt: Of all the things that you could do while sliding forwards on ice, shifting into reverse is the ABSOLUTE last thing. Good Lord.

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mythago
October 7, 2009 10:39 PM
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@TurboWagon00: Yes, it was completely avoidable. If Toyota had recalled its cars when it first learned of the problem this tragedy could have been avoided.

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The Porkchop Express
October 8, 2009 12:53 PM
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@mythago: I think his point was that a State Trooper/Police Officer should have had some training for this in their other driving training. I'm not saying that because you have been taught something you will remember to, think to, or be able to do it. But the training should have been there.


Also, would the hand/parking brake slow it any? I know in the audio he says he has no brakes, but does he mean both brakes?

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Rachacha
October 8, 2009 7:14 PM
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@The Porkchop Express: I don't know, but I suspect what happened was the following:
Accelerator became stuck
Driver pushed hard on the brakes in an attempt to slow vehicle. With car still in drive, the brakes probably did initially slow him down, but not enough to stop the vehicle.
Brakes overheated/wore down rendering them useless
Car accelerated again
Crash


This past winter, while driving in the mountains (lots of hills and windy roads), my brakes began to overheat and braking ability lessened a bit. What I began to do was rely more on downshifting and let the engine and transmission slow me down, and then use the brakes to make more fine adjustments. Once the brakes cooled down, full braking power was restored and I continued my drive without incedent.

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Bitmapped
October 9, 2009 5:35 PM
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@Rachacha: I live in West Virginia and use engine braking very frequently. It makes for a lot longer brakepad life and is safer, too, since there is less risk that you'll overheat the brakes.

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The Porkchop Express
October 8, 2009 12:55 PM
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@The Porkchop Express: oh yeah, and yes Toyota should have made the recall long ago.


I'm not blaming the officer here.

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supercereal
October 8, 2009 12:05 AM
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@mythago: They first heard of the problem through 5 complaints. Five. Out of millions upon millions of cars sold. That hardly warrants a recall. Perhaps after the independent study, sure, but not based on a few isolated complaints alone.

As sad and tragic as this particular case is, sympathy does and should not override logic and fact.

@secretmanofagent: When you're going 100+, the loss of power steering is hardly a \"safe\" way to slow down. Engine running, transmission in neutral is the only way to go.

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Costner
October 8, 2009 10:18 PM
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@supercereal:


Shifting into neutral is the preferred method, but it obviously would redline the engine (although tapping against the rev limiter is a lot better than dying in a horrific accident).


However shutting off the engine is also an acceptable solution provided you don't turn the key all the way to the point it locks the steering wheel.


Frankly I'm disappointed moreso in the driver in this case than I am Toyota. We are actually at the point in our society that people aren't expected to know how to remedy a situation but instead we automatically blame the \"big bad corporation\".


I've driven cars where the floormats have bunched up under the gas peddle before and you know what I did? I reached down with my HAND and slid them back into position. Wow… that was difficult. Most modern cars have clips to hold the mats in place, but it saddens me that Toyota will end up probably spending millions in litigation costs as well as millions on the recall all because morons can't figure out how to adjust a floor mat.


This is part of the reason cars cost so much - the auto companies have to engineer every minor detail to appeal to the lowest common denominator of idiot.

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Tiny Bug
October 8, 2009 6:21 PM
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@supercereal:

They first heard of the problem through 5 complaints. Five. Out of millions upon millions of cars sold. That hardly warrants a recall. Perhaps after the independent study, sure, but not based on a few isolated complaints alone.

As sad and tragic as this particular case is, sympathy does and should not override logic and fact.

A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

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aliminx
October 9, 2009 4:22 AM
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@Tiny Bug:

So, I'm not the only person who thought of Fight Club...

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SharkD
October 8, 2009 4:12 AM
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@supercereal wrote:

When you're going 100+, the loss of power steering is hardly a \"safe\" way to slow down.
You might want to tell that to a lot of racing drivers/teams, who disable the power steering in order to reduce the drag on the engines of their production-based race cars.

Power steering makes it possible to steer with your fingertips. Absence of power steering, at speeds above 25mph, makes very little difference, and can even improve steering feel. (Obviously, if you have a steer-by-wire system, it's a different matter, entirely.) Lack of power steering only becomes a burden at very slow (read: parking lot) speeds, and even then, it's only like a light workout for your upper body.

The only thing you could do that would eliminate your ability to steer would be to pull the key out of the ignition, enabling the steering wheel lock. In that event, you'd be in serious trouble.
 

@ninjatoddler wrote:

I believe switching off the ignition will result in brake failure with the exception of the hand-brake. In other words, do NOT switch off your car when it's moving.
Again, unless you have an entirely electronic, drive-by-wire system, all you're doing is removing the power assist from the brake booster. Cars with the ignition in the ACC or OFF position are entirely steerable/stoppable, it just takes a little more physical effort.
 
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Shortly after I turned 16, fourteen years ago, the ancient brake lines on my '65 Mustang burst while I was driving to school one morning. I discovered this at about 55 miles per hour, on a two-lane road with no discernible shoulder. Yes, I panicked. Yes, it was scary. But, I was still able to figure out that I could downshift and engine brake the car down to a speed safe enough to pull the e-brake and turn into a wide driveway.

In all fairness, it was a 3-speed manual, but even electronic automatic transmissions let you downshift (that's what the 4/3/2/L on the shifter mean), and heck, you can even select \"R\" on your automatic while going forward at high speed (it won't do anything, as most modern, post-1970s transmissions are speed gated when shifting into reverse, and simply stay in neutral, even if \"R\" is indicated).

I've also had a throttle bowden cable stick while on-track, at speed, and had presence of mind to shift into neutral and wack the pedal a couple of times until it un-stuck and I was able to pull into the pits. Granted, it happened on a relatively straight section.

[/blame the OP]

That said, it's very hard to think straight when panicking, especially if you've never, ever had to consider how to deal with one of those \"one in 1,000,000\" type cases. It's truly awful that a family of four died due to something as easily preventable as a floor mat becoming wedged under the accelerator.
 
--
I'm going to reiterate my belief that if \"Driver's Ed\" (which, when I took it, consisted entirely of three days of open-book, 10 question, multiple choice tests and a couple of hours in a beat-up Cavalier) included a \"Highway Safety School,\" or something similar to the Street Survival ([streetsurvival.org]) course, new drivers would suffer far fewer serious accidents and drivers, in general, would be much better equipped to handle emergency situations.

I took an HSS course when I was 23 and learned more in one day than I had in 7 years of driving.

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Rachacha
October 8, 2009 7:06 PM
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@sharkd: My driver's ed was an 6 week summer course, 2 days a week (1 day of classroom, one day of driving) for about 4 hours each day. We drove on city streets, country roads, highways and high speed roads with crossroads/stoplights.


I learned an enormous amount from that class and it helped to make me a better aware driver (I find myself still 20 years later driving down the road and mentally identifying all of the potential hazards that I might need to immediately react to (Driveways, children on a sidewalk, other vehicles around you etc.)

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mythago
October 8, 2009 12:15 AM
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@supercereal: Correct: your sympathy for big corporations such at Toyota should not override the facts that the problem was first brought to their attention two years ago, that by April 2008 the details of the floor-mat problem were known, that when the floor mat got stuck the required force to operate the brakes went from 30 pounds to over 150 pounds, and that the three-second off-button requirement was not included in the owner's manual.


As the original post points out, panic is a very powerful emotion, and people do not always act 100% perfectly when they are in a life-threatening, panic-inducing situation. I don't see how that shifts all the blame off Toyota.

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digisplicer
October 7, 2009 10:36 PM
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That's pretty horrible and I can understand how people would panic and lose their minds in such a situation. At what speed do governors kick in? Do they turn off the engine or just prevent going over a specific speed?

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7 replies
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nstonep
October 8, 2009 8:26 AM
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@digisplicer: Depends on the car. Most Japanese non-sports cars will have speed limited to around 120. Domestic cars pretty much the same unless it's a performance model. In my GM car it was set at 154 with room to go.

As far as I know if you keep knocking into the speed limiter (maybe 2-3 times) it's the same as if you knock into the rev limiter in such a manner, the engine will shut itself down or go into reduced power mode and trigger the check engine light.

Still...no one questions how a car on a highway that's supposed to be going maybe a maximum of 75 gets up to 120 without the driver throwing down the emergency brake, pulling the key from the ignition, or slamming down gears (or even into reverse or park thus destroying your transmission). At some point, even if the vehicle is fubar you have to look at the driver and his behavior.

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dfens42
October 8, 2009 4:35 PM
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@nstonep:


I've had to lock up the e-brake before coming down some steep backroads in WV, regular brakes just overheated, couldn't stop. And this was in 2nd gear.

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dfens42
October 7, 2009 11:10 PM
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@digisplicer:


The govenor depends on the car and it only keeps it from going over a certain speed, normally it should be below the speed rating of the OEM tires, so on a lot of passengers cars that is around 118 or so. Neutral would probably work, as it disengages the drivetrain. Brakes or parking brake would have probably worked too, but who is to say in the same situation if anyone else would have thought of those things...

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GearheadGeek
October 7, 2009 11:41 PM
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@dfens42: The problem with brakes in this situation is that they are POWER brakes boosted by vacuum, and most cars don't make any vacuum at wide-open throttle. So, if you hold the brake pedal down for a while and don't use that time to come up with another solution, you'll use up all the vacuum in the accumulator and you won't have power brakes anymore. With a 4-wheel disc system set up to have power brakes, you have to apply a great deal of pedal force to get much braking once the vacuum boost goes away.

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Coles_Law
October 7, 2009 10:54 PM
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@digisplicer: Usually governors just put a cap on speed-unexpectedly cutting off the engine could be dangerous it its own right (although in this case it would have helped). I think the speed at which they kick in varies, although around 120 sounds about right.

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Dominikanfrank
October 7, 2009 10:46 PM
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@digisplicer: They just prevent from going over a certain speed, usually 140ishh

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corbyz
October 7, 2009 10:49 PM
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@Dominikanfrank: In my experience it's always been around 110 mph.

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nycguy
October 7, 2009 10:41 PM
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Maybe I'm missing something, but couldn't they just have turned the engine off?

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14 replies
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FLConsumer
October 8, 2009 1:49 PM
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@nycguy: This is where the push-to-start cars should have a one-touch recessed KILL switch right below the start button. It's a required safety device on many pieces of equipment much smaller than a 2-ton car.

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gStein_*|bringing starpipe back|*
October 8, 2009 6:18 AM
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@nycguy: turning off a car while it's still in gear means you lose steering. dropping it into neutral disengages the transmission, but you keep power steering, power breaks, etc

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bonzombiekitty
October 8, 2009 11:57 AM
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@gStein: You don't lose steering, you lose power steering, which really doesn't do much at higher speeds.

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rworne
October 8, 2009 2:00 AM
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@nycguy:

One thing that didn't make it into the Consumerist article:

The guy and his family were driving in a borrowed car:

\"The car, a loaner from Bob Baker Lexus El Cajon, was equipped with \"all-weather\" floor mats, designed for Lexus vehicles made between 2004 and 2009, he said. Hill would not further elaborate on the mats or how they were installed.\"

He was driving an unfamiliar vehicle and this could be the first (and last) time he experienced a push button starter.

Doesn't explain not putting it in neutral, but witnesses said they saw the brakes flaming - so they didn't die from lack of effort.

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From the cubicle of PGibbons
October 9, 2009 11:13 PM
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@rworne: If he got it into drive, he probably would have been able to figure out where neutral was. Especially if he had time to dial 911 and have a conversation.

Don't talk or text on the phone while driving, kids.

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Dominikanfrank
October 7, 2009 10:46 PM
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@nycguy: No, Toyota and Lexus' use push button starts, which does not allow you to turn off the engine after a certain speeds (10 or 15) to avoid accidental turn offs while on the hwy, ect.

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Chris Walters
October 7, 2009 10:45 PM
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@nycguy: This model uses a button to start the car, and in order to turn it off you have to hold the button in for three seconds. Unfortunately, that information wasn't included in the owner's manual for this model.

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PølάrβǽЯ
October 9, 2009 1:42 AM
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@Chris Walters: If you're not smart enough to know how to turn off your own car, what in the hell are you doing owning it, let alone driving it?

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halfcuban
October 9, 2009 5:05 AM
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@aaron8301:

Do you read the articles or do you fire from the hip first? In fact he did NOT own the car, and the fact that you could turn off the car by holding the push button down for 3 seconds, as dozens of others have stated, was not included in the owner manual.

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supercereal
October 8, 2009 12:07 AM
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@Chris Walters: Why would you ever want to turn it off in the first place? You would lose power-everything, including steering. The ability to maintain control is the last thing you'd want to lose.

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shadowkahn
October 8, 2009 4:30 AM
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@supercereal: Power steering does absolutely nothing for you above 10 or 15 mph. They wouldn't have lost steering if they had cut the car off, had they been able to actually do so.

I have trouble imagining that Lexus would design a car that could not be shut off or shifted to neutral at speed. If they really did that, someone needs to be fired.

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AirIntake
October 8, 2009 12:50 AM
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@supercereal: One click back, not two. You'd still have battery power, but no engine. I actually had this happen in a 1991 Isuzu truck. Scared me for a second, but then I turned the key off, shifted to neutral, and stomped on the gas pedal twice to make it come back up. I then restarted the vehicle while still moving, put it back into gear and was on my way. I ripped the floor mat out the next time I stopped though. What killed this family was panic, not a faulty floor mat. Every floor mat can be faulty if you don't hook it right and it bunches up.

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From the cubicle of PGibbons
October 9, 2009 11:11 PM
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@AirIntake: Floor mats and lots of other stuff that falls in line with gravity can end up down there around the throttle and brakes. I'm sure it's happened to a heck of a lot of people, a few times to me. Just strange that a trained officer would prioritize making a 911 call over breathing and keeping his cool. Neutral and turning off the car come to mind as options pretty easily.

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Corporate_guy
October 8, 2009 2:01 AM
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@AirIntake: Not panic, they clearly lacked all common sense. The guy told them to turn it off. Had they done that they may have survived the accident or avoided crashing.

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GadgetsAlwaysFit
October 17, 2009 11:59 PM
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@Corporate_guy: I wouldn't have known how to turn off that particular vehicle while in motion. So his inability to know how to turn off a push button Lexus that he has borrowed is quite understandable in my book.

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ecwis
October 8, 2009 2:48 AM
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@Corporate_guy: I think the point is that he was not able to turn it off. I don't think it's common knowledge to know how to turn off a push ignition vehicle.

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JennQPublic
October 8, 2009 5:30 AM
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@ecwis: The first thing he says is \"We're in a Lexus...\" If you called 9-1-1 from your car, would you tell them what kind of car it was?

Maybe his unfamiliarity with the car (and its push-button ignition) was the reason behind his panic?

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The Porkchop Express
October 8, 2009 1:34 PM
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@JennQPublic: I forgot about that part. Maybe he said that hoping that 911 would have some info on the issue or how to stop one of those mamma jammas

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corbyz
October 7, 2009 10:50 PM
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@Chris Walters: That kind of information doesn't need to just be in the owners manual, that's the kind of thing that needs a sticker... like the airbag warning stickers.

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WhoSaysWhat?
October 7, 2009 10:53 PM
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@corbyz: Seconded. It may ruin the visual awesomeness of the interior, but I'd rather live than have a stickerless car, thank you.

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downwithmonstercable
October 7, 2009 10:47 PM
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@Chris Walters: Ah, didn't realize that. Funny how TV/radio fails to mention that bit. Commentators have been blasting this guy left and right about not turning the car off.

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TVGenius
October 8, 2009 8:18 PM
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@downwithmonstercable: Yeah, the pundits research their talking points just as much. Keep that in mind.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 12:41 PM
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@downwithmonstercable:


Put it in neutral. Moreover, there isn't a car on earth whose brakes can;t overpower the engine. And yes, that includes ferarris, etc. Heck a grand prix car can't overpower its brakes. He should've put it in neutral.

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RomeoCharlie
October 8, 2009 2:06 PM
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@treimel: My 2005 Ford Mustang can easily overpower my brakes. It's called a \"burnout.\" In fact, I personally have seen dozens of cars do \"burnouts\" throughout my life.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 2:16 PM
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@RomeoCharlie:


Having raced cars for more than fifteen years, I have a passing familiarity with burn-outs, and that's not a counter-example. That's not what I'm talking about--drive down the road at full throttle, and ease on the brakes until you've fully applied them without lifting the throttle, your car *will stop.* I'm pretty sure the Mustang would be included in this statement \"all modern braking systems ... are many times more powerful than their engines.\"


[www.valvoline.com]

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downwithmonstercable
October 7, 2009 10:44 PM
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@nycguy: Or shifted to neutral?


My guess is he was in complete panic mode. Very tragic. Hindsight is 20/20 and in a clear state of mind it makes sense to shut off the engine or shift to neutral, I'm sure when you're panicking you react differently

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MikeVx
October 8, 2009 12:04 AM
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@downwithmonstercable: Courtesy of an episode of Mythbusters, I know that some, if not all, models of car, have a system to prevent you from changing gear into reverse abruptly. The actual system may prevent any manual gear change above a few MPH. As in, an automatic transmission being blocked from disengaging at high speeds. This is just a guess based on the reverse block demonstrated by the Mythbusters.

They were trying to test a myth about direct change to reverse at high speeds, they couldn't do it.

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GearheadGeek
October 8, 2009 1:06 AM
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@MikeVx: Auto shifters are always \"open\" from drive into neutral. They generally block you from shifting to reverse, but you can get neutral specifically for emergency situations like this.

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Ratty
October 7, 2009 10:42 PM
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Listening to this made me feel pretty uneasy.


This is a bit... snuffy for this site.

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7 replies
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Cool story bro
October 8, 2009 8:10 AM
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@Ratty: Warning: This audio is graphic and shocking.

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Ratty
October 8, 2009 7:30 PM
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@Cool story bro: Yes, it is, it's also not exactly standard consumerist fare. Extremely voyeuristic for the site.

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ethereal_pete
October 8, 2009 1:40 AM
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@ethereal_pete: sorry, was trying to put a picture of snuffaluffagus aka Snuffy

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h3llc4t, breaker of office dress codes
October 8, 2009 12:36 AM
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@Ratty: My thoughts precisely. I don't know how this is benefiting consumers at all, but it did make me uncomfortable.

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Chocotanya
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@h3llc4t, breaker of office dress codes: Agreed - and I'm not even going to listen to it. Couldn't we have a transcript of the call instead?

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krista
October 8, 2009 9:02 AM
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@h3llc4t has a slow work day: I think it benefits consumers to realize how serious this situation is, and to remove the damn mats!

I had a '05 Prius that my Mom took over last year, and I insisted that she remove the mats immediately after I read the news. She also would never have figured out how to turn it off, or shift to neutral, if the accelerator stuck. I would have been fine, since I always, by habit, put it in neutral before shutting it off - but you don't need to, and my Mom doesn't.

What I don't understand is having time to call 911, but not have someone under the dash trying to fix the accelerator.

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h3llc4t, breaker of office dress codes
October 8, 2009 1:43 PM
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@krista: My point was more that I don't understand how playing someone's dying moments in a video does all that much more to inform the consumer, except perhaps for searing it into the consumer's brain. Maybe I'm just a different type of consumer in that I saw the recall notice and took the mats out of my car without needing to hear that terrible phone call.

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The Porkchop Express
October 8, 2009 3:55 PM
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@h3llc4t has a slow work day: it gives the warning and the story a lot more weight. And damn near it's own gravitational pull.


I know, thats from mass.

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GearheadGeek
October 7, 2009 10:43 PM
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I think this is made worse by the fact that most people haven't the vaguest clue how their car actually works. Skipping the possibility that you might pull whatever is hanging the gas pedal away with your foot, if you had to learn to drive a manual transmission you'd have an innate understanding of the concept that you can disconnect the engine from the wheels. There have been many \"runaway\" tragedies like this that could have been averted by smacking the shifter out of drive.

I think many automatic-transmission drivers forget the shifter is even there until it's time to put it in park, and sometimes even then.

When I was in college, a woman came into the store where I worked upset that her car wouldn't work. She couldn't get the key out and it wouldn't start again and she needed to call someone (this was pre-cell-phone days.) I guessed from her description what was wrong... the selector was in \"D\" so she couldn't turn the key to lock and take out the key, and the starter would only engage in Park or Neutral.

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7 replies
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Brunette Bookworm
October 8, 2009 4:52 PM
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@GearheadGeek: I had that problem with a car before but it was a problem with the ignitions switch and the shifter. Even in P it wouldn't always let me turn the key...thanks Ford!

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The Porkchop Express
October 8, 2009 1:39 PM
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@GearheadGeek: Shifting into N aside, it wasn't his car. it was a loaner and he may have never driven a lexus before.

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infi
October 8, 2009 12:15 PM
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@GearheadGeek:
I don't want to defend toyota there or anything, but seriously there was a lack of driving skill involved, in our old renault (manual) the accelerator was sometimes stuck (not the pedal, but the engine itself) so it just kept revving up, being a manual it was pretty easy to just declutch and turn the engine off.
sure, panic is a reason, but one should be able to keep control of the car even in extreme situations.
and knowing how to shift into neutral shouldn't have to do anything with the car brand they're driving.

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veronykah
October 8, 2009 3:28 AM
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@GearheadGeek: I've had that happen to me driving an automatic.
However, I drive a manual and am used to just driving up and turning the car off in gear [I have no parking brake].
So I've had it happen a few times in someone else's car, I can't figure out why it won't start then realize its still in D.

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SharkD
October 8, 2009 4:23 AM
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@veronykah: When I was 16, on a second- or third-date, I was bringing my new girlfriend back to her house; I pulled up to her driveway, turned the car off and was going to get out to walk her to the door, when I found I couldn't get the key out. I panicked and spent five minutes fumbling with the ignition, until she helpfully pointed out that it was still in \"D.\"

Aside from adolescent awkwardness and second- or third-date nerves, I do have a good excuse -- my car, a '65 Mustang, was a manual. Her parents insisted that I drive my mom's automatic-equipped '92 Explorer, as they felt it was safer, having shoulder belts and reverse lights. (It probably was, but they didn't think like a teenage boy -- the Mustang had buckets up-front and one of the most uncomfortable rear seats in all of creation; the Explorer had fold-down rear seats and a cargo area that could hold a two-person air mattress -- not that I ever got to use it.)

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ChickenMcTest
October 7, 2009 11:41 PM
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@GearheadGeek: I was working at a cafe and I had a customer come in complaining of the same problem. She said she was going to call the auto club. My manager was like, wait let me take a look really quick!

Driving a manual transmission car should be mandatory when you learn to drive, imho. After driving manual its frustrating to not be able to pick what gear my car is in. But, with my current stop and go commute to work I couldn't live with out an auto!

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ludwigk
October 7, 2009 11:39 PM
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@GearheadGeek: I had a similar issue in my car (a toyota, actually), but it is related to the ignition not turning when the car is on a hill, and the steering column is locked at an angle. Apparently, the key won't turn until the wheel is rotated slightly. Took me about 15 minutes and the manual to figure out.

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tackhouse1
October 7, 2009 10:44 PM
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It is sad but the driver had the ability to put the car in neutral or turn off the engine off at any point. Obviously hind sight is 20/20, but the dispatchers first order of business should of been getting the car under control, and find out where they were located afterward. With a car speeding out of control they were going to hit something eventually. I realize people can panic and lock up in situations like that, but the dispatcher should of been yelling at them to turn off the car, or better yet put it in neutral (that way they would keep the power brakes)

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goodfellow_puck
October 8, 2009 12:10 AM
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@tackhouse1: Actually, no that's not the 'first order of business' for a dispatcher. The dispatcher HAS to get location first so that if/when something happens, responders know WHERE to go (especially with cellphones). It also has to do with sending responders faster, and then feeding the appropriate info while they're en-route. This is protocol for a reason.

Second, I don't know about you, but the info given by the panicked driver (who while an officer, was also in a bad situation and is only human) was not clear to me right away. Dispatchers get hundreds of calls a day, most for non-emergencies. It's difficult to pin down exactly what is going on in a situation, if there's immediate danger, and get the right info quickly. The dispatcher DID ask the driver to try and turn the engine off, but the officer was too panicked and busy in the situation to process it or do anything about it. :(

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P=mv
October 8, 2009 1:56 AM
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@goodfellow_puck: He is correct. Location is first order of business and then the nature of the problem. Dispatchers that don't do this very quickly (20 seconds is the standard in my county), even when the caller is screaming on the phone, don't keep their jobs very long. Before he can offer advice, a dispatcher has to know exactly what is going on.

And for those of you trying to tell this poor dead guy what he did wrong, shame. We actually have no idea what he tried before calling. I bet he did stand on those brakes, and in a battle between brakes and gas the gas always wins.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 12:47 PM
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@AshCatScram:
You are absolutely, positively wrong about the gas vs. brakes things. There is not a car made that can overcome its brakes. None.
Also, what do you mean \"shame\"? We absolutely know that he didn't put in neutral, and it would have saved his life.

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RomeoCharlie
October 8, 2009 1:58 PM
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@treimel: There are in fact HUNDREDS of models of car that can overcome their brake systems. Have you ever seen someone do a burnout? The very definition of a burnour is what you say is impossible; a burnout is simply opening the throttle while holding down the brakes; the non drive wheels do not move because their brakes hold, but the drive wheels on almost ANY rear-wheel-drive car overcome the resting friction of their brakes quite easily. If the car were already moving, and the rear (or front, if they are the drive wheels) are warm and grippy on the road surface, the brakes even on the non-drive wheels would not be enough to hold them against the torque from the drive wheels being powered by the engine. The braked would simply heat up to the point where thermal buildup on the rotors would reduce friction and make the brakes even less effective.

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chauncy that billups
October 8, 2009 3:13 PM
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@RomeoCharlie:
A burnout is not a car overcoming the brakes - it is the engine torque overcoming the frictional coefficient of the tires and the ground. If the car overcame its brakes, a burnout wouldn't be a burnout - instead you'd see the car moving forward while hearing horrible scraping and grinding noises. Seriously, how do people not understand this?

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treimel
October 8, 2009 3:38 PM
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@chauncy that billups:


Most people do not race cars, go to races, or care to learn about it--on this topic, though, I'm not giving up--there's no reason people have to die from ignorance.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 2:23 PM
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@RomeoCharlie:


No, you've completely mis-understood what a burn-out is. I've raced for a long time now, and I can assure you, if you fully apply the brakes at a stop, and then apply full throttle, you're not going *anywhere.* Go to a drag race--they can control whether they spin their wheels in place, or stutter forward by letting it go. Believe me, the cars I've been luckyy enough race were much, much more powerful that this Lexus.


Also, I'm really not trying to be some troll, but this is really, really important-as in life and death.

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RomeoCharlie
October 8, 2009 2:02 PM
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@RomeoCharlie: Also, the main reason why braking works in the first place, is that generally when we apply our brakes, we stop accelerating at the same time. Think about it, you take your foot off the gas and apply the brakes. Have you ever tried to hit the brakes with your left foot while your right foot remained on the gas? Doesn't work so well, does it? Now imagine doing the same at 120 miles per hour with the accelerator wide open.

I hope everyone here blaming the driver for this tragedy never get the chance to test out your theories on what he \"should\" have done.

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tackhouse1
October 8, 2009 1:46 PM
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@treimel: Guys I am not a dispatcher. I am sure you are right, protocol states that they are to get the location. My point is that protocol doesn't fit every situation. If the dispatcher had spent more time getting the guy to shift the car in neutral rather then find out his location, there's a good chance everyone in that Lexus would still be alive today.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 2:02 PM
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@tackhouse1:
Why are you repsonding to me? I couldn't agree more.

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tackhouse1
October 8, 2009 6:15 PM
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@treimel: Sorry hit the wrong reply button, that was intended for goodfellow_puck

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treimel
October 8, 2009 10:21 PM
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@tackhouse1:

No worries--I've done it plenty of times.

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The Porkchop Express
October 8, 2009 1:45 PM
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@treimel: Witnesses stated that the brakes were flaming.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 2:02 PM
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@The Porkchop Express:
Modern braking systems are *many* times more powerful than their engines. That's not me talking, it's basic engineering. Here's just the first thing Google pops up, but I'll provide a dozen more of you like:
[www.valvoline.com]


Now, that isn't to say that *repeated* hard applications of the brake can't create the over-heating situation described. However, had the driver *stayed* on the brakes from the outset, it would have overcome the engine.

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The Porkchop Express
October 8, 2009 3:57 PM
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@treimel: They could, just possibly, mean fully functioning brakes in good repair. We don't know what kind of shape these brakes were in or that they didn't have enough time to do anything.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 4:10 PM
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@The Porkchop Express:


Agrred, in this case, apparently they were in anything but good repair at the relevant time--witnesses said they were flaming, suggesting to me repeated applications, which can render the brakes ineffective through excessive heat and subsequent fade and--eventually--buring pads. The key thing here would have been to disconnect the engine from the driven wheels--i.e., put it into neutral--why the dispatcher didn't say to do that, I can't imagine; presumably the taker of the 911 call wasn't in a state of panic.

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your new nemesis
October 7, 2009 10:45 PM
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You had the same thought i did. If he had the presence of mind to call 911, i would have guessed that he could have maybe tried an alternative solution, such as the neutral idea you mention. You don't want to turn the car off, because the engine runs the power steering and the power brakes. The engine would have taken care of itself with an RPM limiter while he pulled off to the side and looked at what the problem was.

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Katxyz
October 18, 2009 5:18 PM
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@skizsrodt:

Maybe he was calling in hopes that the dispatcher would be able to tell him how to do exactly that. People often call dispatcher in panic so that they can get quick, safe, efficient advice that they can't think of in the moment.

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FLConsumer
October 8, 2009 1:54 PM
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@skizsrodt: Amazing how many people think no power steering & no brakes is a bad thing. Cars were made without those luxuries for years. In recent years I've had two incidents where a 2 different cars' engines died while @ 70-80mph. No crash, no panic, no difficulty controlling the cars whatsoever. Both cars were large luxury barges too, no problem stopping or controlling them.

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krista
October 8, 2009 9:10 AM
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@skizsrodt: I passed my parallel parking test in a large 1970's Cadillac with broken (not working at all) power steering. And I'm a little bitty girl! OK - I flunked the first time, but passed the second. The point is, even without power steering, you can still turn even a big heavy car, especially if it's going over 30 mph. Same with power brakes. For many decades, cars had neither, and people could still drive.

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Corporate_guy
October 8, 2009 2:07 AM
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@skizsrodt: \"You don't want to turn the car off, because the engine runs the power steering and the power brakes.\"

Well that is the biggest joke I have ever heard.

How is it better to let the car go 120mph with power steering, than coast to 0mph without power steering?

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jessedybka
October 8, 2009 2:57 AM
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@Corporate_guy: Neutral means no more power being applied to the drivetrain. So, 120 with power steering and slowing down is better than 120 without power steering and slowing down.

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formergr
October 8, 2009 8:26 AM
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@jessedybka: Have you ever driven a car without power steering? At anything above maybe 25 mph, the difference is barely noticeable. It's at parking lot speeds that it really does its job.

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jessedybka
October 8, 2009 9:05 PM
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@formergr: My first car didn't have power steering, and you can always tell who else's car doesn't by their huge forearms (one huge forearm is a different matter entirely.) I was just pointing out that all other things being equal, having power steering would be better than not.

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corbyz
October 7, 2009 10:46 PM
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Most of the comments so far are already saying the dead people should have known better. Why don't you all go to the funeral and tell his dead body what he SHOULD have done?

Anyway, there's no way I'm listening to the audio. I'm not the kind of person who watches the local news because it's full of thrillingly gruesome tragedies that happened to other people. Some people really get some sick kind of entertainment out of looking at car crashes, hearing about kids drowning in pools, or some gruesome murder/suicide.

Just let me know when Toyota's fixed their problem, and if they've been punished for being irresponsible. That's really all I need to know about.

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sardonicbastard
October 7, 2009 11:07 PM
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@corbyz: \"Why don't you all go to the funeral and tell his dead body what he SHOULD have done?\"

How about instead of that, people learn from this incident what to do so they don't end up dead as well? What's the alternative, total media censorship and cover-up? Come on. Learning from a mistake requires acknowledgement of the mistake.

\"Some people really get some sick kind of entertainment out of looking at car crashes, hearing about kids drowning in pools, or some gruesome murder/suicide.\"

Yeah, and I highly doubt these people into \"murder porn\" are consumerist readers. The reason this 911 call is important is precisely because it's shocking. It's the kind of thing they'll play on the news, and that combined with the shocking photos will get people's attention.

But hey, enjoy the view up there from your moral high ground. We'll be down here trying to stop other people from dying.

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mythago
October 7, 2009 11:35 PM
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@sardonicbastard: \"The mistake\" in this case was Toyota's decision to sit on their hands for TWO YEARS instead of fixing the problem so tragedies like this didn't happen.


And \"trying to stop other people from dying\" does not involve blaming the victim, or preening about 'I was in a similar situation and I did the right thing'. For that matter, \"we\" don't even seem to be clear on what the driver should have done, as half the people are insisting he should have turned off the car and half are insisting that you should never turn off the car because it affects the power brakes.


But hey, enjoy the warm, smug glow of pretending that the I'm So Much Smarter game is really about saving lives.

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supercereal
October 8, 2009 12:11 AM
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@mythago: Contrary to your comment, pointing out what should and should not be done in this situation is exactly what would prevent this sort of thing in the future. An intelligent individual reacts to their situation appropriately; someone like you complains that other people should look out for your own well-being.

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halfcuban
October 9, 2009 5:14 AM
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@supercereal:

The allegedly intelligent designers and engineers of a device should not design something that kills their consumers during the course of normal operation.

I'm glad to see that a majority of Consumerist readers are prepared for every possible catastrophe that can hit them, and thus, when they die in some easily preventable consumer good mishap they can rest easy that internet experts will be able to accurately assess and blame how they're at fault.

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mythago
October 8, 2009 12:45 AM
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@supercereal: As floraposte already explained to you, Ben already covered giving people life-saving information in the original post, and he did so without blaming the victim or bragging about his own superior driving ability.


Intelligent people understand that \"I'm so smart and that would never happen to me!\" is not helpful information, nor is it life-saving information; someone like you is more interested in wallowing in a sense of superiority than in actually helping others.

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floraposte
October 8, 2009 12:28 AM
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@supercereal: There's a difference between saying \"Remember, people, it's possible to shift into neutral even in that situation\" and saying \"Why didn't he know enough to shift into neutral?\" Yes, it's great if you can keep in mind what kind of options exist in such a situation, but that doesn't make it your fault that the situation exists in the first place.

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mythago
October 7, 2009 11:04 PM
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@corbyz: Well said, but don't give anyone ideas. You just know that if some of the \"I'm such a better driver\" commenters here actually knew the family, they'd be walking up to grieving family members at the funeral and blatting about it.

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SNForrester
October 7, 2009 10:46 PM
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I'm not going to listen to the audio. I don't need disturbing things like this in my psyche. Watching or listening to someone's last moments is too voyeuristic for my taste, but it seems like the publicity from this tragic accident will save a lot of other lives.

Generally, I feel that all 911 tapes should remain private but maybe this is a different case. I've got really mixed feelings about this.

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339point4
October 8, 2009 12:54 PM
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@SNForrester: I agree with you. I don't want to hear something I won't be able to unhear.

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SNForrester
October 8, 2009 7:50 PM
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@339point4: Yes, that's exactly why I don't want to listen to it. A few years ago I took a peek at someone who fell to their death off the office building behind mine. I saw the body from a great distance and it wasn't especially gory but I immediately regretted doing it. You can't unsee stuff. I learned my lesson.

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theysaidwhat
October 8, 2009 11:54 AM
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@SNForrester: I'm with you. The 911 tapes don't need to be released unless there is suspicion of Emergency Services responding inappropriately.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 1:45 PM
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@theysaidwhat:
Given that all they needed to do was say \"shift into neutral\" I'd say they responded fairly inappropriately.

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From the cubicle of PGibbons
October 9, 2009 4:22 PM
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@treimel: Seems that would have been good guidance to repeat. Hindsight being 20/20, but common sense apparently not drilled into the head of this 911 operator...

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goodfellow_puck
October 8, 2009 12:15 AM
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@SNForrester: Do you not feel that ignoring the outcome of these events is easier if you're not emotionally invested in it? It's easy to scan horrific headlines of the news and go, \"Man, that sucks.\" It's not easy to be faced with photos, and video, and calls that make you think, \"Not only does that suck, but I'm going to do something about it so it doesn't happen again!\"

You can argue voyeurism, and it's a valid point, but to me it means waking people up.

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god_forbids
October 8, 2009 12:27 PM
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@goodfellow_puck: And what are we to do, once we've awoken so? Go protest Toyota? As the immediate family member of someone who died under 911 circumstances (yes, tapes and all) I would feel violated if our personal tragedy became fodder for the 11 o'clock news reel, or fuel for anyone with an anti-corporate axe to grind.

These folks have (grieving? more like shell-shocked) families. Let's show some respect by not wallowing in this material regardless of the 'educational value'. Please?

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Cool story bro
October 8, 2009 8:18 AM
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@goodfellow_puck: Also agreed. I feel as though by choosing not to listen to this tape I'm turning a blind eye to serious defect that is killing people. Stuff like this really hammers home the reality of it and may damage Toyota enough to ensure they react accordingly, instead of trying to sweep it under the rug.

Although that said, I do take katstermonster's point - I wouldn't want to listen to the tape if it was someone I knew.

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SNForrester
October 8, 2009 7:43 PM
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@Cool story bro: I don't feel like I'm ignoring the situation. I am educated about what happened and what Toyota did. I also now know what I should do if the same thing ever happens to me. Toyota already issued the recall and got all the bad publicity they can get. Is there more to the story?

Could someone who listened to the tape please tell me what you learned from it that I didn't?

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JennQPublic
October 8, 2009 8:29 PM
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@SNForrester: I learned that I probably shouldn't have listened to it.

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TheSpatulaOfLove
October 8, 2009 1:15 AM
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@goodfellow_puck:

I'm with you on this one, goodfellow. Too many people have the attitude that it will never happen to them. I'm in full support of releasing this kind of information as an effort of getting people to pay attention. I'm also a big fan of the carnage footage from drunk driving, lack of seatbelts and texting/cell phone use while driving being shown to remind people that these behaviors are deadly.

Our society has turned into a beige, boring, politically correct mess that breeds complacency. I had a hard time watching the video and hearing the panic in the guy's voice - but it reiterated the need to remain calm in this kind of situation and exhaust every option you can if you're in the same situation.

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katstermonster
October 7, 2009 11:26 PM
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@SNForrester: I agree with you. The sister of a guy I work with was killed by her husband this summer, and they released the 911 tapes from the friend she had managed to text right before it happened. It actually was a huge deal because she had worked at the local Fox syndicate, and the anchors all said it changed their views entirely on releasing 911 tapes, but they eventually did so in the hopes of drawing attention to domestic violence. I couldn't bring myself to listen to them, nor to this recording. I understand the idea of drawing attention and making an impact, but it's just too much for me.

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widgetNinja
October 7, 2009 10:49 PM
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If their lexus has the push stop/start button you have to actually hold it in to turn off the car in this situation:

-If the vehicle is equipped with an Engine Start/Stop button, firmly and steadily push the button for at least three seconds to turn off the engine. Do NOT tap the Engine Start/Stop button.

Yeah, like I would remember that in this situation...

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5 replies
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FLConsumer
October 8, 2009 1:55 PM
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@widgetNinja: 146 feet per second. That's how fast you'd be going at 100mph. Do you really want to wait 1500 feet for the engine to die?

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JennQPublic
October 8, 2009 2:47 PM
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@FLConsumer: It only takes three seconds. It's not Windows.

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AirIntake
October 8, 2009 2:21 PM
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@FLConsumer: No, that's why you shift to neutral.

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JennQPublic
October 8, 2009 5:38 AM
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@widgetNinja: It wasn't his car, it was a loaner. He wouldn't have seen the owner's manual.

@MikeVx: I'd probably try that, but this guy sounds like he's quite a bit older than me.

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MikeVx
October 8, 2009 12:18 AM
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@widgetNinja: As strange as this sounds, I might just think of that, because of the feature on all modern personal computers that if you hold in the power button for 10 seconds, the unit will shut off no matter how locked up the CPU is.

SOP for a blue screen.

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sirwired
October 7, 2009 10:50 PM
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I always wondered why simply standing on the brakes doesn't work to fix this. Given that the car can slow down faster than it speeds up, I would think that in the battle of brakes vs. engine, the brakes would win.

Maybe ABS kicks in, and then you lose brakes due to lack of engine vacuum...

But yeah, pop the car in neutral (yes, your engine will bounce off the rev limiter), get to the side of the road, and then cut the ignition...

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Chocotanya
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@sirwired: I know nothing about cars (as I may be making obvious shortly), but why isn't having the brakes automatically override the accelerator possible, or being suggested as a solution?

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treimel
October 8, 2009 12:50 PM
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@sirwired:
The brakes would work. The issue with vacuum is only the question of *powe* brakes--you don't need power boosting to make the brakes work with 100% efficiency. you just press have to press harder. Moreover, once the brake fluid has pinched the calipers shut, it's not an issue anymore in any event.

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sirwired
October 8, 2009 10:50 PM
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@treimel: With cars designed for power brakes, and the booster is out, you can stand on the pedal and your car will not slow down if you are fighting the engine. Your leg simply isn't that powerful. Think Indy trying to stop the mine car in Temple of Doom.

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treimel
October 9, 2009 1:29 PM
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@sirwired:


No, that's not right at all. As the New York times reported, pedal effort increases from 30 lbs to 150 lbs, and the braking distance increased from 200 to 1,000 feet, but it will absolutley slow down. 150 lbs is not only achievable wioth your leg--it's easy. No need to fight the engine of course, because you can shift into neutral from any gear at any speed, in any car (it's a federal regulation that there be no lockouts).
I drove a Cadillac with no boost to its brakes for a coupwhuile--it just required more effort.

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treimel
October 9, 2009 1:30 PM
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@treimel:


for a \"while,\" not a coupwhuile. Wow--I should learn to type.

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scootinger
October 8, 2009 2:14 AM
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@sirwired: Personally I have a hard time believing that someone like a state trooper would not have tried everything that he could, even in a panic situation like this...(s)he would probably be better-trained than almost anyone on the road. I figure there's a decent chance that the vehicle made it impossible to switch into neutral in this situation, especially with the electronic control systems and whatnot in luxury cars these days. (the same way that they would have been unable to turn off the car due to the pushbutton ignition, or choose the automatic 3/2/1 option like you would on older cars with automatic transmission.)

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ChickenMcTest
October 7, 2009 11:47 PM
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@sirwired: I think in the original article they stated the breaks would lose a lot of effectiveness for some reason (not just because they are fighting the engine), and the breaking would have felt unresponsive to the driver.

You sir are correct that neutral would have been a solution.

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GearheadGeek
October 7, 2009 11:44 PM
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@sirwired: ABS isn't a factor... at wide-open throttle, you'll eventually use up the vacuum in the accumulator and have no power brakes. You'll still have brakes, but they'll require a lot of force and the hotter they get, the less effective they are.

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sirwired
October 8, 2009 10:42 PM
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@GearheadGeek: Only repetitive pushes of the brakes deplete the vacuum reserve. A one-time push would not.

But ABS repetitively pushes the brakes (that's how it works), so I could see it depleting vacuum in an instant.

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crazymannn
October 7, 2009 10:54 PM
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Being a Trooper he would have been trained as well (if not better) then the 911 operator. I find it hard to believe he did not try everything that he could, to save himself and his family. However that is only speculation, so is what he did not do. Toyota acted so quickly to recall, because he WAS a trooper and they would have a very hard time showing user error.

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econobiker
October 8, 2009 3:52 PM
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@crazymannn: Probably because he WAS a trooper that he thought he could handle the situation but, since he wasn't working and was with his family, his guard wasn't up for situational awareness. Remember too that most troopers are in Crown Victorias, Tahoes, Chargers, etc their whole shifts so the Lexus as a loaner, would have been unfamiliar to him. I am thinking that a loaner -is- the best car to frag the transmission on if something like this happens...


For the same reason that most people get in car accidents within 5 miles of their homes since they let their awareness down...

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zarex42
October 8, 2009 12:58 PM
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@crazymannn:

Well, clearly he didn't simply shift into neutral. There's zero reason for this, other than panic and/or incompetence.

It's tragic, but it did have a simple solution that the victim did not utilize.

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H3ion
October 7, 2009 10:56 PM
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Sirwired makes a good point and I don't understand why it wouldn't have worked in this case. When Audi was accused of unintentional acceleration (where the car accelerated without the gas pedal being pushed down) I thought they were able to show that the braking power of the car's brake system would always win over the accelerator. I agree that throwing the car into another gear or into neutral might have been useful, but the brakes alone should have been enough. Why weren't they?

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ChickenMcTest
October 7, 2009 11:52 PM
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@H3ion: @H3ion: \"With the engine throttle plate open, the vacuum power assist of the braking system cannot be replenished and the effectiveness of the brakes is reduced significantly.\"...\"increased from less than 200 feet to more than 1,000 feet\"

You are correct that the breaks would have eventually won vs the engine. However, it's clear that the driver was panicking and might have given up on using the breaks when they were not responding the way he assumed they should have.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 1:02 PM
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@ChickenMcTest:


That 200 vs. 1,00 feet is just dead wrong and evinces a lack of insight into what power brakes actually *do.* The actual braking force is created by converting kinetic energy into heat energy by the application of a friction material to the disc rotor, this, in turn, is accomplished byu the calipers hydraulically squeezing the pads onto the discs. The hydraulic system of the brakes works perfectly fine without the vacuum boos. In fact, the The brakes still work at the exact same efficiency without power boost, it simply takes hugely more effort to apply them. However, it does not take super-human effort. I've driven cars with no boost--it *does* not increase your stopping distance by a factor of five. In fact, if you know that you have to stand on the brakes to make themn function, it increases your braking distance not at all.

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ChickenMcTest
October 8, 2009 2:14 PM
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@treimel: The 200 vs 1000ft comes from the report issued by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

So unless you can tell me specifically what is wrong with their testing methodology, then my comment stands.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 2:32 PM
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@ChickenMcTest:
I'm sure the test is right, but it's not responsive to my comment.
Read it again--the 200 vs. 1000 is the brakes working against the car at full throttle--with the car *in gear*
As the article relates, the lack of power boost results simply in a 30 lb. pedal effort into a 150 lb. pedal effort.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 6:06 PM
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@treimel:
Oh, and the Op is right about the Audi thing--all cars will stop with a working braking system, even at WOT.

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missamandabear
October 7, 2009 10:57 PM
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This is tragic, but I've been getting recall notices from Toyota since about a month after I bought it... why did I get them, and it seems that not everyone did. I got them in excess! I bet I've received 10 since early 2008.


Also - maybe it was the way I was raised, but I understand the concept of putting a car in neutral, or stepping on the clutch, or shutting the engine off... I'm not trying to be crass, but I feel like everyone should understand these concepts before driving.

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akhil1980
October 7, 2009 10:57 PM
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As much as I agree that people should know their cars, how about this titbit of info about Lexus from the linked NYT article??

-----
The researchers also found that consumers were likely to have problems shutting off the engine because the Lexus uses a start button instead of an ignition key.

\"That removes the ability to instantaneously shut off the engine in the event of an emergency while the vehicle is in motion,\" it said.

The problem is that with the vehicle in motion the button must be depressed three seconds to cut off the engine. That's a safety measure to prevent the engine from being shut off inadvertently, Toyota said. But the report said owners would probably not know that because the owner's manual has no mention of the three-second requirement.\"

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ChickenMcTest
October 7, 2009 11:53 PM
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@akhil1980: Or this

______

What they did find was that the design of the accelerator pedal (\"one-piece, nonarticulating\") allowed it to become easily entrapped in the groove of the rubber all-weather floor mat if the rubber mat was not properly secured with at least one of the two retaining hooks.\"
If the rubber mats were placed on top of the standard carpet mats, the retaining hooks could not be used, the report said. It noted that the rubber mats had a warning about not placing them on top of other mats, but the writing was small and might not be seen.

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AngryK9
October 7, 2009 11:05 PM
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Fear is a tricky thing. It can kill us or save our lives.


However, trained or not, State Trooper or not, the man was, as we all are, only human.


Those of you that are sitting comfortably at your computer, claiming that he should have known how to handle that vehicle...you have no idea what was going through that man's mind. You can't possibly know exactly what transpired. You don't know what condition the vehicle was in.


Remember, there are always more than just the human factor in every situation.

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NuclearDog
October 11, 2009 9:41 PM
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@AngryK9: As someone who's had this happen to him 3 or 4 times (twice with a car load of people I was responsible for), I have a bit of an idea what's going through your mind when you're in a 2771lb death trap doing 120 and accelerating very quickly towards the tail end of a semi trailer in front of you. Panic.


It's the ability to ignore the panic and keep thinking rationally that saves your life in this situation and others. I can't imagine how this trooper would've fared in a shootout or something if he couldn't make good decisions doing something that he does every day.

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the_wiggle
October 8, 2009 3:24 AM
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@AngryK9: thank you. well said. this seems to be part of the whole \"why one doesn't operate on one's family.\" being calm etc. is easier when it's not one's own family seconds from being destroyed and not a damned thing to be done about it.

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ChickenMcTest
October 8, 2009 12:00 AM
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@AngryK9: After reading the article it seems clear that the floor mats on these Toyota cars should have been better designed, and the driver was presented with life or death situation which was not of his making.

If we can analyze what the driver did wrong, then we presented with the same situation could regain control of the vehicle. And we could use are settlement from the lawsuit to spend some time in the Bahamas rather than having the money used to console our families : (

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ecwis
October 7, 2009 11:46 PM
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@AngryK9: I can understand that argument for the Lexus driver but what about the cop? His main concern should be slowing down the car, yet he just lets the guy keep talking as he writes down notes about the call. I know it must be rough for him since he probably considers himself partially responsible for the driver's death but I hope he's fired.

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floraposte
October 8, 2009 12:31 AM
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@ecwis: You mean the 911 operator? They're not magic; their main job is to locate you so they can send somebody to help.

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From the cubicle of PGibbons
October 9, 2009 4:32 PM
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@floraposte: Wasn't the GPS triangulation chip made mandatory to do this job for them? Oh yeah, that was just the reason they used to track us all....

One would expect that 911 Human Resource departments would screen out most people too dumb to offer up common sense solutions to problems panicked people call in with. Of course it's hindsight, but I think even *I* could manage to ask someone where they are AND tell them to put the car in neutral within 20 seconds.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 1:37 PM
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@floraposte:


C'mon, common sense should trump procedure--tell 'em to put in neutral; the location is irrelevant at that moment.

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JennQPublic
October 8, 2009 5:47 AM
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@floraposte: I would say their secondary job is to advise someone in an emergency. The 9-1-1 operator was in a position much like ours- removed from the situation, not panicking. Plus he had training.

While the driver had good reason to panic and not think straight, the 9-1-1 operator should have told him to put the car in neutral very early into the call. I'm not blaming him (and I'm sure he was traumatized by this), but perhaps this should be explicitly covered in 9-1-1 training.

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night_2004
October 7, 2009 11:11 PM
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120mph, and the freeway ends in 0.5 miles. It sounds like the brakes were not working either.

Even if you stick a car in neutral, I'm pretty sure the car would take more than 0.5 miles to come to a stop.

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From the cubicle of PGibbons
October 9, 2009 4:35 PM
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@night_2004: Given the choice, I'd probably rather take my chances coasting through that last 1/2 mile in neutral rather than with the throttle going full bore.

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TVGenius
October 8, 2009 8:23 PM
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@night_2004: Not sure why they stayed on the dead-end freeway instead of the transition to the westbound 52. I'd rather take my chances there than drive straight into the side of a hill.

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Razor512
October 8, 2009 7:16 AM
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@night_2004:

you can also shift a car in to reverse and that will stop it quickly, while you will loose control as you will loose a lot of traction, a skilled driver can control a car that has lost control. the car will slow down very quickly. (but depending on your training, you need a level head to really do it)

I have tested a few old junk card and have experience in controlling a car that looses traction and also one if you encounter hydroplaning, the key is to keep the car stright as possible by not moving the searing wheel, just keep it steady and if the car starts to curve slightly them make small adjustments to control it, they have to be very minute, like 2-5 degree turn of the wheel, a large turn will cause the car to spin and if you hit anything at that point, it will flip over (if it is a older car that had to meet the standard of being able to withstand being dropped on the roof (the current standard is the can must be able to be placed on it's roof with out caving in so roofs on modern cards are much weaker)
but depending on the strength, having it flip can actually increase your chances of living then just have it go at 120MPH and hit something.

the best solution is to either get the car into nutrial if the brakes are working and if there not, then get them into reverse, (reverse is the most dangerous and will damage the car but you will have a much better chance of surviving)

another solution if you cant turn the car off and you have a gun, shoot the engine from under the dashboard if your lucky enough to hit the any of the parts handling the fuel or the engine block enough to crack it, the engine will instantly ear it's self apart and the car will slow down

also keep in mind that if your in a situation where your panicking like crazy, most common sense things will never come to mind because they completely absorbed into the situation of the car going too fast that they cant think or focus on anything else

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Razor512
October 8, 2009 5:10 PM
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@adamczar: yep if you damage the body of the engine the car automatically turns off, it is a safety feature, it is also why many new cars automatically turn off if you crash them, even if the engine is still able to run. older cars will still run but the engine may blow out but the wall between the engine and the driver area will protect you.

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nstonep
October 8, 2009 8:44 AM
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@Razor512: Exactly...putting a moving car into reverse will destroy your transmission but is a good way to stop a car that's lost it's brakes. Let's see: 2k+ for a new transmission (auto) or your life...do the math people.

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secret_curse
October 8, 2009 2:57 PM
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@nstonep: A modern transmission will not ever go into reverse at speed. It will, however, go into neutral allowing you to slow down.

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whytcolr
October 8, 2009 6:40 PM
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@secret_curse: I can tell you from personal experience, that you are correct... In my old '87 Taurus, going from drive to reverse would stall the engine and stay in neutral. In my friend's '04 Impala, drive to reverse did the same thing. (Both were accidental occurrences, at speeds considerably slower than 120mph.)

One thing that no one has mentioned, but I was taught in my driver's ed class in high school: if you are going too fast, have no brakes, and need to slow down, you can steer into the guardrail... This is, of course, a last ditch effort. Also, guide yourself into it slowly, as maintaining contact with the barrier is your goal.

The shape of the \"Jersey Barrier\" (concrete barriers that I'm sure most of us are familiar with), is actually designed to help with this process.

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Sonicslasher
October 9, 2009 3:22 AM
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@whytcolr: Wow, I was thinking of the exact same thing with the guard rail. Still, could the car come to a stop with that method in .5 miles or less?

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PKSShamus
October 8, 2009 6:16 AM
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@night_2004:
\"With the engine throttle plate open, the vacuum power assist of the braking system cannot be replenished and the effectiveness of the brakes is reduced significantly.\"

The researchers said stopping distances \"increased from less than 200 feet to more than 1,000 feet.\"

1,000ft < .5 miles (2,640 feet)

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treimel
October 8, 2009 12:55 PM
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@PKSShamus:


The only thing power brakes do is reduce pedal effort. That's it. lack of power boost does *not* increase braking distances by a factor of five. Believe me, I had no power boost on my coupe de vile brakes for five months--it just makes the pedal effort hard.


These guys need to talk to some sae engineers.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 4:40 PM
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@treimel:


Ahh--I re-read the 200 vs. 1,00 feet thing--it assumes the car is in gear, i.e., applying power.

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ecwis
October 7, 2009 11:31 PM
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@night_2004: If the brakes don't work, you should downshift until you are in the lowest gear, then slowly apply the e-brake/parking brake.

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night_2004
October 7, 2009 11:12 PM
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@night_2004: Forgot to add this in. That car would have covered the remaining distance on the freeway in less than 15 seconds assuming the car was continuing to accelerate.

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ChickenMcTest
October 8, 2009 12:03 AM
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@night_2004:

The article states: \"With the engine throttle plate open, the vacuum power assist of the braking system cannot be replenished and the effectiveness of the brakes is reduced significantly.\"

The researchers said stopping distances \"increased from less than 200 feet to more than 1,000 feet.\"

I think it's likely the breaks felt mushy and unresponsive to the panicked driver, he probably then decided he need to find a different was to slow his vehicle.

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ChickenMcTest
October 8, 2009 12:05 AM
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@ChickenMcTest: Wow I wish there was an edit button. That post didn't make any sense.

I was trying to say that the brakes were not responding the driver was accustomed to, he might have given up on trying to use them.

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trujunglist
October 7, 2009 11:13 PM
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Man.. that really killed me listening to that.

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Taed
October 7, 2009 11:14 PM
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A story from the SF Bay area ([www.mercurynews.com]) is similar. Here's some highlights from a \"vindication\" article published in the _San Jose Mercury News_ last week:


After Guadalupe Gomez's 2007 Toyota Camry careened out of control, mysteriously accelerating to more than 100 mph on a San Jose highway, no one quite believed his story that the engine simply surged on its own when it smashed into a Honda Accord, killing its driver in a burst of flames.


Now, they do.


\"This poor man (Gomez) was just driving his car and this happened,\" said Mohinder Mann, the attorney representing the family of Troy Edwin Johnson, the 39-year-old driver of the Honda Accord. \"He was very honest, he told everybody what happened, but CHP wanted to blame him.\"


\"Toyota was attempting to put some blame on him, but he did everything he could to stop the car and prevent it from crashing, he was dodging cars and holding down the horn. He was very remorseful,\" said Gary Mann, an attorney who also represented the Johnson family and interviewed Gomez while investigating the crash.


For his part, Gomez, 70, of Redwood City, wants distance from the case for which he was arrested and sued.

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3 replies
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From the cubicle of PGibbons
October 9, 2009 4:40 PM
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@Taed: Isn't karma interesting. Now it's a cop that dies because of this issue. Had the Police taken the guy seriously instead of demonizing him and writing it off as a lie, this present tragedy may not have happened. You'd think when someone dies there might be a reason to do a serious investigation instead of simply pinning it on the \"drunk Mexican\" or whatever excuse they used to ignore him.

Blue Wall of Silence, indeed.

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bobloblawsblog
October 7, 2009 11:46 PM
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@Taed: F-ed up shit. F-ed up. What SHOULD be illegal is FORCING auto makers to automatically recall cars with ANY default - not just when the cost of paying out lawsuits outweighs cost of recall. read \"Unsafe at any speed\" -

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RvLeshrac
October 8, 2009 1:06 PM
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@bobloblawsblog:


You mean \"what should be legal.\"


And no, not all faults are cause for a recall. What *should* be done is better handling of specific recalls, i.e. better VIN tracking. While a 2007 Lexus may have an issue that causes loss of control, it may not be *EVERY* 2007 Lexus.


If car companies actually bothered to track their vehicles in the same way that food producers track batches of product, recalls would be far less costly, far more likely to happen, and far easier to require.

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Gracegottcha
October 7, 2009 11:16 PM
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An off-duty state trooper? He didn't know he could turn off the engine or shift out of drive into neutral? How horribly sad.

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4 replies
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mnicolson
October 8, 2009 12:21 AM
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@Gracegottcha: Further investigation explains everything.

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mnicolson
October 8, 2009 12:18 AM
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@Gracegottcha: ...or anticipating the stupid polemic.

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DoubleBaconVeggieBurger
October 7, 2009 11:29 PM
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@Gracegottcha: Decided not to take a glance at ANY previous comments, eh?

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treimel
October 8, 2009 12:52 PM
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@Ayarkay:
I've read plenty of comments--not one explains why he couldn't shift into neutral.

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From the cubicle of PGibbons
October 9, 2009 4:41 PM
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@treimel: Sheer terror clogging brainstem, combined with 911 operator unclear on priorities themselves?

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treimel
October 9, 2009 8:16 PM
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@From the cubicle of PGibbons:
Yeah--I think that about nails it. Very, very sad situation.

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SadSam
October 7, 2009 11:28 PM
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Its easy to second guess people after the fact.


One complaint I have about modern cars is that more and more they drive themselves and the driver has little control at a certain point. I always drove a manual transmission car until my last car purchase. I loved having more control over my car and having the option to disengage the tramsission. But its very difficult to find a mid-range car with a manual transmission these days, they just don't make them. So I have a car with automatic and or the trip-switch thingy, but I leave it in automatic most of the time because the semi-manual just seems weird without the actual clutch.

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ChickenMcTest
October 8, 2009 12:07 AM
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@SadSam: yeah the \"sports shift\" or what ever the manufacturer's call it is not the same as a true manual car.

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GearheadGeek
October 7, 2009 11:47 PM
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@SadSam: Neutral still disengages the transmission.

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ecwis
October 7, 2009 11:33 PM
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Ntrl slctn

(smn hd t sy t)

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secretmanofagent
October 7, 2009 11:38 PM
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@WhoSaysWhat?: I've had that happen once before, and I did the smart thing: I turned the key to accessory. It shuts off the engine and you do lose power steering from the seems of it, but it gets you down in speed safely.

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DericLee
October 7, 2009 11:43 PM
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Wow, way to overstate against Toyota consumerist.

Hate much?

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4 replies
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ecwis
October 7, 2009 11:47 PM
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@DericLee: I don't consider this a problem with Toyota though. Sure, this was terrible engineering but every driver should know how to stop their car in emergencies. I'm sure that all the information is in his manual so everybody, RTFM!

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mythago
October 8, 2009 12:47 AM
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@ecwis: Would that include the part of the manual that omitted information about how to turn the car off?

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ecwis
October 8, 2009 2:28 AM
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@mythago: If it's not in the manual that is pretty bad on Toyota's part. If they replace a standard ignition with a digital button, they should instruct people how to shut off the car in an emergency.

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DericLee
October 7, 2009 11:43 PM
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Seriously though, are you posting emergency calls for other tragic occurrences for other recalled products?

No? This is a first?

Loss of respect for consumerist here.

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Ben Popken
October 7, 2009 11:58 PM
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@DericLee: If we find them we will gladly post them.

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weber.356
October 7, 2009 11:57 PM
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I don't believe this. From what I hear on Consumerist, foreign cars are infallible.

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Jakooboo likes dolphins.
October 7, 2009 11:58 PM
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Jesus...

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matto
October 8, 2009 12:00 AM
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The brakes probably were completely faded (overheated and ineffective due to \"outgassing\" on the pads, or boiling the brake fluid) because this poor guys first impulse was most likely to mash on the brakes.

Alternately, he may have tried to use the parking/emergency brake. On Toyota/Lexus cars, the parking brakes are small drums on the inside of the rear hubs, separate from the disc brakes controlled by the brake pedal. These small drums have very little stopping power, and will probably simply fail if applied at speed. They really are only useful for keeping the car in place when parked.

Cutting the ignition would have been smart; and I don't buy that he didn't know how to cut the ignition. Was this the first time he drove the car? Has he just left it idling since he bought it? Doesn't make sense. He was probably too panicked to think of it.

Putting the car into neutral would have also worked fine. Apparently he was too panicked to think of that either.

It is a shame that this happened to anyone- but of all people, this is especially sad. Police officers are trained to think clearly under stressful and life or death situations. And being a highway patrol officer, he should have been more familiar with basic car operation.

I've had several cars, all with floor mats on the driver's side. I frequently check that they are in place correctly, because the mats can jam the accelerator and brake pedal if they aren't- no matter who makes the car. I'm pretty sure if you read your car's owners manual you'll find a warning about it.

Damning Toyota for this is like decrying McDonalds for the temperature of their coffee.

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7 replies
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JustTheFax
December 1, 2009 1:48 AM
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matto
October 8, 2009 12:00 AM
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The brakes probably were completely faded (overheated and ineffective due to \"outgassing\" on the pads, or boiling the brake fluid) because this poor guys first impulse was most likely to mash on the brakes.

Alternately, he may have tried to use the parking/emergency brake. On Toyota/Lexus cars, the parking brakes are small drums on the inside of the rear hubs, separate from the disc brakes controlled by the brake pedal. These small drums have very little stopping power, and will probably simply fail if applied at speed. They really are only useful for keeping the car in place when parked.

Cutting the ignition would have been smart;...\"

This is one of the very few comments here which is factually correct.

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rcsfca
October 8, 2009 5:31 PM
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@matto: Actually yes it was his first time driving this lexus. It was a loaner car from the dealer.

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tattooedjennyrose
October 8, 2009 1:45 PM
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@matto:

It was a borrowed car-that was pretty clearly stated. So it wasn't a matter of him \"leaving it idling\" since he bought it.

While I agree that putting it in neutral would have been a good move, I am somewhat horrified that so many people are jumping on the \"wow-he had training and didn't know? What an idiot!\" bandwagon regarding someone killed due to a known defect in a vehicle.

It's really easy from the comfort of our computer desks to say how perfectly we would have handled the situation, but you just don't know. This was a vehicle he was pretty unfamiliar with, and he had his family in the car-even the most seasoned people might just run out of ideas on how to make the car stop in that circumstance.

I was in a pretty bad accident a couple of years ago, and yes, I did go on something of an \"autopilot\" in my defensive driving when I got hit. I am not a trained driver, but I do drive pretty frequently. HOWEVER I can't say for sure that if I was in this particular situation, my common sense would prevail. Why not? Because I wasn't in that car, I don't know exactly what had been tried and not tried, and I don't feel comfortable saying I could have handled it better.

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JiminyChristmas
October 8, 2009 1:27 AM
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@matto: If you knew anything about the famous McDonald's coffee case you wouldn't imply they were blameless.

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mythago
October 8, 2009 12:52 AM
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@matto: According to the linked article, a report on the floor mat problems found that the pressure required to operate the brakes in that circumstance went from 30 pounds to over 150 pounds. I don't know about you but I don't even WEIGH that much.

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GearheadGeek
October 8, 2009 12:03 AM
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@matto: while I think Neutral was the right choice, I'm a car geek and I wasn't aware that you'd have to hold the \"start/stop\" button for 3 seconds to turn off the car when it's in gear. Then again, my car doesn't have a start/stop button... I think it's bad that Toyota didn't have that information in the manual, but it's highly likely that few owners would have read the info if it had been there.

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matto
October 8, 2009 12:10 AM
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@GearheadGeek: Ah. If the button functions differently when the car is in gear; then my bad. It would make sense for it to shut the engine off immediately when the car is in Park; but require a longer press if the car is in gear. That change in behavior would indeed be confusing in a panic situation.

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matto
October 8, 2009 12:03 AM
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Oh, sorry for the followup, but for those claiming that the brakes and steering stop working when the engine's not running- sorry, but that isn't how cars work. That would itself be an insane safety issue. Do you really think that your car becomes unstoppable and unsteerable should your engine stall? That's insane.

Power steering gets assistance from a hydraulic pump running off the engine. If the engine is not running, the steering wheel is still directly linked to the steering rack.

Power brakes get assistance from a big diaphragm pulled by engine vacuum. Should the engine not be running, the pedal still is directly pushing on the brake master cylinder. You will have to press harder on the pedal, but the brakes still work just fine.

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3 replies
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treimel
October 8, 2009 1:09 PM
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@matto:


Thank you--as a gearhead of many years, many these comments had begun to make me lose my mind. I'm very sorry that this happened to this family, and who knows what goes through the mind in a moment of panic, but it is truly horrifying to see the ignorance of the drivers on this thread.
Predator--sorry, but your brakes did not become useless--in fact, they worked *exactly the same, albeit with an insanely increased amount of pedal effort. they undoubtedly *felt* useless because the lack of boost gives an entirely different, indeed \"dead\" feel--but unboosted brakes work fine. Also, the power steering does *nothing* at high speeds. Nothing. Oh--and there's no \"electric\" function with the basic operation of the brakes.

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predatorgsr
October 8, 2009 12:28 AM
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@matto: I was coasting down a driveway with a moderate incline, and I turned off my manual transmission Acura Integra. The brakes became practically useless, and the wheel was very hard to turn. I had to pull the handbrake and turn the car back on in order to be able to stop on the incline. Based on my experience, I doubt that the average driver would be able to retain control of a car going 120mph that suddenly lost power steering and even more doubt that he would be able to slow down without abs.

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predatorgsr
October 8, 2009 12:30 AM
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@predatorgsr: Forgot to add that you are turning off the electric power to those functions as well by turning the key all the way off, not just turning off the engine.

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predatorgsr
October 8, 2009 12:53 AM
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@predatorgsr: Ah sorry, I believe it was an older automatic camry, not an integra. I believe that steering wheel would lock if you pulled the key all the way out as well, but of course you had to push in and out to get it to do that, after the engine was off.

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madog
October 8, 2009 12:21 AM
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I agree with the few other rational people here in that many others of you are fucking assholes.

Couldn't you have just not gotten cancer, or just passed that test, or just not get in that fatal car accident? Pricks. Plain and simple.

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2 replies
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GearheadGeek
October 8, 2009 1:01 AM
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@madog: Rational people examine an event and learn from it. If it's a catastrophic, deadly event they strive to learn how to avoid repeating it.

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mythago
October 8, 2009 1:05 AM
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@GearheadGeek: Rational people understand the difference between \"here are some things you can do in such a situation\" and \"what an idiot, why didn't he do A, B and C because I totally would have done all that\".


Rational people also would consider that some blame attaches to company that sold these people a car that would put them in such a situation.

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GoodBytes
October 8, 2009 12:30 AM
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What happens if you turn off your engine while the car in such state? Can you even do that?

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3 replies
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henrygates
October 8, 2009 1:05 AM
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@GoodBytes: The vehicle starts to slow down and you need Popeye arms to steer.

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AirIntake
October 8, 2009 2:34 PM
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@henrygates: Not at 120mph. At that speed you would hardly even notice the loss of power steering. Older Hondas (80's) used to disable power steering when the vehicle got past a certain speed as it was actually safer.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 3:36 PM
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@AirIntake:
Not just Hondas--all power steering systems are designed to do nothing (or virtually nothing) at high speeds.

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moore850
October 8, 2009 12:57 AM
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note to everyone: take the damned floor mat out from the driver's side of any car. having a dirty floor is not worth getting the pedal stuck, which could happen in any car and the brake or clutch pedal could cause an accident just as easily as the gas.

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2 replies
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ecwis
October 8, 2009 4:35 AM
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@moore850: This really doesn't affect every car though. This could not happen in my car. The floor mat would have to be over six inches thick since the bottom of my accelerator pedal is about six inches from the floor.

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juri squared
October 8, 2009 1:36 AM
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@moore850: For sure. This actually happened to me on Monday when I was driving my husband's car. I was very lucky that it only slowed the car down, and that I was able to stop at the stoplight and pull the damned thing out. It was a very scary situation.

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TinaBringMeTheAx
October 8, 2009 1:06 AM
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Not blaming anyone here, but what did the caller hope that the 911 operator was going to do?

Really, I'm trying to figure that out.

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4 replies
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treimel
October 8, 2009 1:10 PM
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@TinaBringMeTheAx:
well, if I'd been the 911 operator I'd have been able to tell him to shift into neutral.

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ecwis
October 8, 2009 4:36 AM
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@TinaBringMeTheAx: Many people are just used to counting on 911 for emergency situations. Also, it's always a good idea to call anyone for help. Too bad he didn't call someone who knows just a little bit about cars though. :-/

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Ratty
October 8, 2009 1:28 AM
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@TinaBringMeTheAx: Offer directions? Offer a way to stop? Warn other people who could be in the way?

There's plenty of reasons to call 911 in an emergency.

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meganbkaie
October 8, 2009 1:17 AM
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@TinaBringMeTheAx: Haven't you seen Speed with Keanu Reeves and Sandra Bullock? ;]

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rachaeljean
October 8, 2009 1:14 AM
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Why on earth would you share this audio!?

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techstar25
October 8, 2009 3:26 PM
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@rachaeljean: I really wish I hadn't listened to it.

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xrmb
October 8, 2009 1:16 AM
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God bless the stick shift/clutch...
God bless the \"real\" key...

Similar thing happened to my on my \"moped\" (50cc), the wire for the gas throttle somehow got stuck in its housing. Cant really remember what I did... but it involved pushing the clutch, which made the engine to go to max rpm, then breaking... and later I decided to cut the engine off before it explodes ;)

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meganbkaie
October 8, 2009 1:16 AM
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This article almost reeks of scare tactic.. and skewing the truth for drama's sake. I can't help but read the beginning which says \"Before Toyota could be bothered to recall 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus cars that they had known for two years had a problem\".. without saying that statement is highly embellished. The vehicle doesn't need to be recalled, the floor mat installed at the dealership needs to be examined. All reports I've read on this state that the dealership installed the wrong floor mat. Also, any idiot can put any old floor mat that is too big in any old car, resulting in the same issue. What happened to truth in reporting?

This article almost reeks of scare tactic.. and skewing the truth for drama's sake.

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rbb
October 8, 2009 1:30 AM
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And that is why touching the brake pedal on any VW or Audi that has a \"drive by wire throttle\" will override input from the throttle.

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whs_consumer
October 8, 2009 1:38 AM
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This is pretty bad for Toyota. I have a GPS that I thought was defective because I had to hold the power button down for 4 seconds to get it to turn off.


Turns out that is a \"feature\" so that if its in a pocket or something, an accidental hit of the button is ignored.


I bet thats what Toyota was thinking...an accidental hit of the start button would cut off the motor and cause loss of power and create accidents.

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Darkneuro
October 8, 2009 2:05 AM
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I'm sorry anyone had to die to get the recall performed, especially for something as stupid as an ill-fitting floor mat.
BUT...
I did customer service for one of the \"Big3\" a couple years ago that gave me a HUGE lesson in 'known issues' and recalls: It doesn't matter if *everyone* has the same issue with the car or not, or if it's reported several times all over the country over a long period of time, the automakers do not and will not perform ANY recall unless the National Highway and Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) pushes it. Period. It costs way too much money for them to notify everyone and make sure there's enough parts at the dealers to fix the issue if it's fixable, and seriously way too much money to buy back vehicles if it's not a fixable issue.
Too often, vehicle owners with serious safety issues only call the manufacturer or notify the dealer, when they should be notifying NHTSA as well. And because I actually took the time to check it out, www.safercar.gov has an online form you can fill out to let NHTSA know of a serious safety issues for cars.

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Keliken
October 8, 2009 2:11 AM
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Here is a thought. Did anyone consider that this was intentional. The 911 call was made to conceal the truth. How many people have been killed by family members who then in turn committed suicide? I know the problems with the Camry are real. So is killing ones family.

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aguacarbonica
October 8, 2009 2:33 AM
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@Keliken:

I hope you're a troll. If you're not a troll, you are a damned moron.

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Grrrrrrr, now with two buns made of bacon.
October 8, 2009 2:25 AM
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I had this happen on my first car. I was mashing the throttle and the cable became hung up in the wide-open position, so I shut the key off and shifted out of drive. Granted, I panicked and tried shifting into park (it wouldn't go anyway), but I was able to pull over safely and call a wrecker. Granted, it was a '74 Dodge Dart, so I was only doing about 50 when I realized I was in trouble.

It also happened in my second car (1986 Topaz), but it did it while I was pulling away from an intersection so I was barely moving. It was a 5-speed, so I slipped it into neutral and shut the key off. The needle on the tach actually flipped over 7000 RPM and came back around (but the engine still ran great at 155k, so I must not have damaged anything).

If the shifter and the ignition were electronically locked \"ON\" in the Lexus for whatever reason, I'd say that's a very dangerous design. Give me a good old fashioned key and shifter any day.

I wasn't there, so I'm not going to make any judgments about what he should have/could have done.

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GeekChicCanuck
October 8, 2009 3:27 AM
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@☠Grяrяrяrяrя, portrait of a chickenwolfmoosepig.: + 1 for your last sentence. You're a hell of a lot better human being than most of the commenters here - most of whom wouldn't have the guts to spew their venom in person.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 1:13 PM
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@GeekChicCanuck:


Why is it \"venomous\" to point out that he could have shifted into neutral? It's a terrible tragedy,no doubt, but it would be even more tragic to keep spreading the myth that you can't shift into neutral while in motion in some cars--you can, even in a Lexus. That's a big reason it's there--to disconnect the engine from the driven wheels.
The point of repeating this isn't to cast some aspersion on the victim here (panic can create all kinds of outcomes) it's to prevent further ones.

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aguacarbonica
October 8, 2009 1:25 PM
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@treimel:

No, some people are repeating it to take some of the blame off of Toyota for knowingly allowing a dangerous design flaw in their cars and not issuing a warning or recall. When people say things like \"I can't believe a highway patrolman didn't know...\" it's pretty obvious what their intentions are.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 2:08 PM
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@aguacarbonica:


Well, \"I can't believe a highway patrolman didn't..\" and I'm not absolving Toyota of a darn thing. The two things are in no way mutually exclusive: Toyota should've recalled this long ago, and all drivers should know that they can shift into neutral in this situation.

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ZoeSchizzel
October 8, 2009 2:31 AM
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This is just a question...Couldn't this happen with ANY driver's side floor mat? What is the flaw with these Toyota models that makes this more likely to happen with those models?

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ecwis
October 8, 2009 4:51 AM
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@ZoeSchizzel: This is an answer... No, Toyota accelerator pedals are unique in the fact that they are very long and the bottom of it almost touches the floor. This may be possible in other cars but it definitely isn't possible in my car.

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AirIntake
October 8, 2009 2:38 PM
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@ecwis: It becomes very possible in any car as soon as you install aftermarket winter mats. In Canada, everybody has aftermarket winter mats. I've even had my gas pedal get stuck on one of them. I shifted into neutral and shut the truck off.

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ecwis
October 8, 2009 4:48 PM
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@AirIntake: It's not possible in my car and I do have aftermarket rubber mats.

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nate_rio
October 8, 2009 2:39 AM
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If you turn off your ignition it can lock the steering wheel.

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SacraBos
October 8, 2009 4:23 AM
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@nate_rio: You can still turn it off without locking the steering wheel. You generally have to turn the key another \"notch\" where it can be removed before the steering wheel locks. Often, there is a button or other catch, and the vehicle has to be in park or neutral, before the steering locks and the key can be removed.

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jayphat
October 8, 2009 3:23 AM
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Myself having been in this situation before(only 85, but still as scary), I was STANDING on the brake and pulling the e-brake at the same time. Luckily I had stopped but the idea was to remain calm.


This is traggic indead. Senseless tragidy courtesy Lexus.

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yevarechecha
October 8, 2009 3:37 AM
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Why didn't the 911 operator tell him to put it in neutral? I heard him suggest turning the engine off, but not that. There should be a list of tips 911 operators are required to know for situations like this. If they can direct CPR over the phone, surely this should be easily accessible information.

My Toyota is a '98, but I may remove the floor mat tomorrow. I occasionally have nightmares about my car careening out of control and being unable to stop.

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Drivebyluna
October 8, 2009 4:14 AM
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I have a Hyundai that had floor mats that kept bunching under the brake. I promptly took them out and threw them out. Glad I did.

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SacraBos
October 8, 2009 4:21 AM
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At 0:35 when the dispatcher understands what's going on, he specifically asks if they \"can't turn it off or anything\". They could have done that. They could have put it in neutral. As a police officer, I'd wager that the first thing he would have suggested if he was responding to the call - is to turn off the engine or shift into neutral.

I've been in situations where I've had to use the parking brake, shift into neutral, swerve into medians/shoulders, and more (especially in snow or ice). Reacting to an emergency, unfortunately, is part of driving sometimes. Much like pilots during flight training are not just taught to fly a working plane, but one that's failing. Cars shouldn't be any different.

I'm not saying the cars shouldn't be recalled, but it's really unfortunate that these deaths were very likely preventable by the people involved.

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zyodei
October 8, 2009 1:10 PM
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@SacraBos: Wow. The first person on the whole comment board to say this.

What I wonder is, why did he call 911 at all, isntead of doing everything available to try and remedy the direct situation?

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SacraBos
October 8, 2009 4:35 PM
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@zyodei: From what I make of the article, it was a passenger that called 911, not the off-duty officer driving the car. If it was the driver, then yeah, WTF.

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ReasonableGuy
October 8, 2009 4:58 AM
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If the accelerator was stuck, why not take a second to see if something was interfering with the pedal? It takes a second or two to remove a floormat (or other obstruction).

If he had enough time and presence of mind to make a 911 call, he should have had time to take the common sense step of looking at the gas pedal for a moment. Fixing the problem and maintaining vehicle control are much more important than making a phone call.

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nstonep
October 8, 2009 8:48 AM
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@ReasonableGuy: I'm guessing that it's a problem/condition that's beyond a \"stuck accelerator\"...who knows with these \"smart\" cars.

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deathshadow391
October 8, 2009 6:07 AM
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That was... disturbing. To say the least.

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Brine
October 8, 2009 7:41 AM
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Regarding the recall, I'm reminded of the scene from Fight Club when the Narrator describes the equation for deciding if they should do a vehicle recall. Knowing Chuck Palahniuk's anecdote hoarding tendancies, I don't doubt it is real.

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defektive
October 8, 2009 8:19 AM
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The same situation happened to me once. I was in my 3000 GT VR-4, which was twin turbo and very fast. Some how the gas pedal broke and became lodged, causing the car to accelerate to about 100 or so very quickly. I admit I panicked a bit, but I remember instantly thinking I could push in the clutch and blow the motor or (much better) just turn the car off. Luckily, after a few kicks I got the pedal unlocked and slowed down.

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zyodei
October 8, 2009 1:09 PM
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@defektive: Damn man, glad you saved the VR-4 ;)

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envtpmz
October 8, 2009 8:22 AM
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There's every chance that this person had been in this situation for a little while. With a powerful engine that suddenly surges from an already high speed, there is every chance the brakes were simply 'faded' or heated to the point where they effectively fail. With a 'start' button system, switching the ignition off becomes less obvious and in a critical situation three seconds can seem like three years.


I don't drive automatics, ever, but is there not systems to prevent the engagement of reverse or neutral whilst travelling at speed? The issue being that engaging neutral in a normal situation whilst at speed can compromise the power brakes? I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me.


If the above is all true, you're effectively in a careering missile with no clear way to stop.


In this situation the ONLY solution I can see is a VERY hard one to engage with. The answer is a prolonged and controlled crash. On freeways/motorways (the likely location for such particular occurrences) the central reservation provides a continuous and significant obstacle. Personally I would advocate 'rubbing' the barrier HARD to reduce velocity. This would have to be a real last-ditch option to stop, and I certainly wouldn't want to have to try it, but put in this situation, I think it'd be the only remaining choice.


Personally I'll be sticking with manual cars.

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JustTheFax
December 1, 2009 11:30 AM
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\"I don't drive automatics, ever, but is there not systems to prevent the engagement of reverse or neutral whilst travelling at speed? The issue being that engaging neutral in a normal situation whilst at speed can compromise the power brakes? I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me.\"

Newer (even back to the '80s) automatics won't give you Reverse while at speed, but ALL allow Neutral. I've used that on many vehicles including computer-controlled. There's no engineering reason to prohibit Neutral while in motion (other than lawyers) and I've never driven nor heard of a transmission that does it. That would be a good, quick, no fancy footwork step in this situation with the side benefit of keeping any fancy stability assistants active, though their significance is pretty here is pretty small.

HOW exactly do you imagine that shifting to neutral \"compromises the power brakes\"? You think the brake system reads some sort of catechism while the car is parked, vowing to punish heretics? \"Revolutions II:23 \"And whosoever neutralizes the Holy Gearset shall call upon the angels of Friction, yet steel shall turn to oil for them\". That's only if you buy a Smart car.
Wait... I don't really want to know what you imagine. Try looking at how they actually work, the basic system less the fancy ABS/Brake Assist stuff is dirt simple.

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AirIntake
October 8, 2009 2:42 PM
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@envtpmz: Nope, you can always shift into neutral. No matter how automatic the car is.

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nstonep
October 8, 2009 8:47 AM
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I hate to say this but I've heard that systems like GM's onstar can actually REMOTELY turn your car off...something to think about when buying a new or used vehicle.

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Corporate_guy
October 8, 2009 10:34 AM
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Drwn wrd wnnrs. cnnt blv thy ddn't jst trn th ngn ff. n ddtn thy cld hv pt t nt ntrl.

Ths s ntrl slctn t t's fnst.

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ecwis
October 8, 2009 4:46 PM
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@Corporate_guy: I really don't get it. Why does Consumerist disemvowel posts that they don't like? That post didn't violate any of the \"rules.\" [lifehacker.com]

Pretty pathetic that the Consumerist does this. They're probably going to disemvowel this just because they don't like people that disagree with them.

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Brunette Bookworm
October 8, 2009 4:59 PM
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@ecwis: That's not the comment code for here. THis is:


[consumerist.com]


From what I can tell, he is blaming the driver...which isn't allowed.

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Ratty
October 8, 2009 7:33 PM
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@Red-headed bookworm: There are dozens of blame-the-driver posts here, vowels intact.

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mythago
October 8, 2009 8:43 PM
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@Ratty: Feel free to complain to the moderator that comments dancing on somebody's grave were unfairly disemvoweled. Just be sure that, unlike ecwis, you know what the rules are.

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ecwis
October 8, 2009 4:43 AM
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@Keliken: That would be pretty awful. And if the murderer is going to kill himself, what's the point of hiding his true intentions with a complicated car crash?

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NE-Phil
October 8, 2009 12:57 PM
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It's not just Toyota.
I had this same thing happen soon after I purchased a used 2002 Honda CR-V. I was able to put it in neutral and pull over to the side of the road and turn off the revving engine.
Same problem - the Honda floor mat was wedged into the accelerator. The floor mat ended up in the trash. No more problems!

OK, Honda - when do you start your recall???

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zyodei
October 8, 2009 1:07 PM
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I'm gonna come out and say it: It was his fault. His failure, as the driver, to keep his head about him in an unexpected emergency was the #1 cause of the death of his family. The fact that he called 911 is inexplicable, and the fact that some posters on this board call that an example of \"having his wits\" really makes me question their basic intelligence level.

The fact that this story will tarnish Toyota, an otherwise crap car maker, is sad.

Sometimes, shit happens. You can place blame, sue, complain, etc. - but if you aren't sharp enough and alert enough at the time to do the right thing, it doesn't matter who's to blame.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 1:19 PM
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@zyodei:
@zyodei:


Wqatch out, too much truth-telling will get you dis-emvowelled. What I don't uinderstand is why so many people seem to confuse a finding of fault in *driving* skills with moral blame. I agree that he was \"at fault\" here inasmuch as he failed to take the actions that would have prevented the oputcome. That doesn't mean I somehow wish this harm on him and his family, or don't agree that this is a terrible, undeserved tragedy. Acknowledging that his actions as a driver were poor is not the same as besmirching his character or not feeling empathy wiht this family for this horrifying loss.

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dustincimino
October 8, 2009 1:15 PM
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I feel for this guy but you could have when into neutral and slowly used the ebrake.

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wagenejm
October 8, 2009 1:24 PM
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Even without being able to turn the engine off, shifting the car into neutral or even pulling the parking brake would have saved their lives. Even pulling over gradually and pushing the side of the car against the guard barrier would have significantly slowed down the car.

It's further proof that panic trumps all sense. Someone more cool-headed would most likely still be alive. I know that we can sit here at our computers and suggest what should be done, but generally by the time someone has gone into a complete panic, all sense of reason is gone.

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pot_roast
October 8, 2009 1:46 PM
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FYI, websense and some other 'enterprise' products tag Liveleak as \"Pornography.\"


This clip is also available on youtube.

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Brunette Bookworm
October 8, 2009 2:05 PM
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For everyone saying turn the car off or put it in neutral, perhaps reading one of the linked articles would help. The Forbes one reads, in part,


\"Federal investigators also found many owners were not aware that it takes three seconds to turn off the electronic ignition button that comes standard on that model and the Prius.


Many owners also complained that it was not obvious how to put a runaway vehicle in neutral because of the design of the Toyota gear panel.\"


Another article also pointed out that the brakes become much harder to use and the stopping distance increases to 1000 ft. While he may have tried many of these things, likely they didn't work. Also, it's not definitely determined that the floor mats alone cause the problem, it could be something else.


Remember to always make sure your floor mats are secured by the hooks provided, don't put a mat on top of another one, and if you have any car with mats, always make sure that they are in place before driving and aren't in a spot that could affect the use of the pedals.

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zarex42
October 8, 2009 5:12 PM
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@Red-headed bookworm:

Sorry, people who can't figure out how to shift a car into neutral should not be trusted with driving cars at all. And this guy was a cop!

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GearheadGeek
October 8, 2009 2:27 PM
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@Red-headed bookworm: I read the article. Before doing so, I didn't realize that you had to hold the start/stop button for 3 seconds to shut off the engine, but frankly anyone who can't figure out how to put the car back into the Neutral position though which they shift every time they go from Park to Drive or Reverse to Drive hasn't been paying attention to what they were doing to get the car moving in the first place. If you've put the car into the \"Manual\" mode, you have to go back to D before you can get Neutral, but other than that it's a push forward from Drive, like it has been with most every floor-shifter automatic for 50 years.

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kittyt
October 8, 2009 2:14 PM
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I learned the hard way with my car. I used to drive an old Beretta with leaking power steering fluid. So my accelerator got stuck while driving on the high way. When it got up to 85 mph I pulled the ignition key out to stop the car. A helpful person stopped by and showed me why it was stuck. The fluid gooed up the accelerator! I never knew you could just put it in neutral *lol* Now I make sure to tell everyone else if they know what to do during that situation. Surprisingly not a lot of people know you can throw your car into neutral.

If I had a car with a push button, I probably wouldn't of known what to do. I can't tell if this person was even able to change gear or not but that's a scary situation!

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HogwartsAlum
October 8, 2009 2:42 PM
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Brrr. I don't even want to listen to it.

And I'm the one that will watch/listen to anything.

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bbagdan
October 8, 2009 2:55 PM
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Frankly, they didn't sound very panicked. \"Hey officer, we're in a Lexus and the accelerator's stuck. We just passed the 125-- right honey? Naw, the brakes don't work. There's a sign that says end of highway half a mile. Oh shoot, there's an intersection coming up.\" Sound pretty calm for people whose lives will be over in 30 seconds.

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Japheaux
October 8, 2009 3:05 PM
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I am amazed the called kept relatively calm throughout the call. I wonder if there was a teleprompter on a heads-up display.

Some of the readers comment about turning the car off or putting it in neutral. Funny, this happened to me a couple of weeks ago going down the interstate and my first thought was how to stop the car without ruining the engine or transmission--not how to survive (putting the vehicles integrity ahead of my safety). About two seconds later I realized 'to hell with the vehicle' and threw it into neutral, watched the tach go into red-line, pulled over and killed the engine. However, about 80 things go through one's head when this happens, and sometimes they are not rational.

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oneandone
October 8, 2009 8:19 PM
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@Japheaux: I've never been in that sort of situation, but the way you describe it makes me think of drivers who get stuck on train tracks and can't restart their cars. Logically, you should just unbelt and walk away/run away, but maybe your first thoughts (vehicle integrity) are more common in these situations. Sad.


Glad it ended well for you!

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zarex42
October 8, 2009 3:26 PM
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Wht fnd mst trgc ws tht thy dcdd t s thr lst fw scnds slssly \"pryng\", nstd f tryng t fnd sltn. Myb f thy hdn't bn s fcsd n thr (nhlpfl) gd, thy wld hv svd thmslvs.

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ecwis
October 8, 2009 4:59 PM
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@zarex42: I really hate how Consumerist disemvowels everything.

Praying is a last-ditch effort for many people. They probably had done everything that they could think of so they spent all of five seconds before their death. For someone who wouldn't pray, the equal reaction would probably to yell a bunch of expletives. I don't think spending that short time praying prevented them from saving their own lives.

Sidenote: If you're going to be one of those anti-religion people, at least try to be accepting of the Christians that you likely think are intolerant. Being equally intolerant just makes you look like an arse.

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zarex42
October 8, 2009 5:10 PM
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@ecwis:

I'm really not all that tolerant of people who wish ill on me for simply stating facts that they don't happen to like, and frankly I'm not sure I should be. (Clearly Consumerist isn't all that tolerant either, removing the vowels from my other post.)

You're right that praying is a last-ditch effort though. But I think it's pretty foolish - if he had instead devoted his brain to continue finding the obvious solution to his problem for those few seconds, maybe he (and his passengers) would be alive today.

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aguacarbonica
October 8, 2009 1:29 PM
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@zarex42:
Ignoring how biased you clearly are, how do you know it wasn't the last panicked thing that they could think of in the literal SECOND before their death? For all you know they didn't even believe in \"their god\" as you put it, and panic forced their hand in the last moment.

Anyway, I hope karma doesn't bite you in the ass for your callousness.

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zarex42
October 8, 2009 2:22 PM
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@aguacarbonica: Biased? Howso?

I pointed out that the praying was completely useless, and may have cost them their lives. This is a fact, and you really have no counterargument, other than to state your displeasure, and wishing ill on me.

Boy, that's awfully christian of you!

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Laura Northrup
October 8, 2009 4:39 PM
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@zarex42: It sounded to me like they didn't start praying until after they went off the cliff. Once you hit that point, unless you're driving a Transformer, you're pretty much down to prayer or telekinesis.

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zyodei
October 8, 2009 1:08 PM
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@zarex42: I sense a certain bias in your perspective..is it not equally tragic that he spent a much longer period of time futiley calling 911?

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zarex42
October 8, 2009 2:21 PM
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@zyodei: At least the 911 operator could have provided them with good advice. Also suboptimal, but not nearly as useless.

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NE-Phil
October 8, 2009 1:08 PM
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@zarex42:
Frankly, I can't figure out why 911 was involved. In that situation (and that same exact problem happened to me in a Honda CR-V) there was no time to dial 911.
Calling 911 was the furthest thing from my mind.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 3:26 PM
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FSome facts about cars that can save your life:


Guys, I've been reading these comments, and, frankly, I'm worried. I'm worried because I've been reading things comments like \"aim for something soft\" and \"you can't shift into neutral above X speed.\" I guess I forget that not everybody lives and breathes cars, but is poor, and so not everybody knows the joys(?)of driving a Triumph Spitfire whose throttle return spring fell off routinely (yup, that means the throttle was stuck) or a Cadillac with busted power steering.
But, here's the thing: I know on the internet everybody's a know-it-all, and nobody likes to be corrected, but a lot of what's been said so far is just wrong. On top of all that, this story is a terrible tragedy, so some of us who are talking about what could have been done to prevent this are being accused of blaming this poor man, or being insensitive, or somehow defending Toyota and its recall practices. On the contrary, I really like reading the comments on this silly blog and I'd like all of you to stay around for a long, long time. With that in mind, I'd like to share some basic facts about automobiles that I hope will mean that if (god forbid) something like this happens to you, you needn't panic.
So--your throttle is stuck, and you're going faster than you'd like. What to do?


FACT 1: you *can* and *should* shift into neutral.
\"but, but .... I have a Lexus/Lamborghini/automatic/manual/new car/old car, etc.\" It doesn't matter--shift into neutral. In an automatic, there is NO lockout between any of the drive positions (the little \"d\"s on the selector indicator) and the \"N\" position. Have a manual? great--stick the clutch pedal in; problem solved.
Some objections:
\"But, but I'm going 10/50/200 miles per hour\" Doesn't matter--you can still shift into neutral.
\"but, but I have an older model without a decent engine governor--this maneuver will put my engine over redline and I could throw a rod (ruin the engine)\" Yup, could do that. So?


FACT 2: being in neutral WILL NOT interfere with the operation of your brakes, steering, or any other essential function of the car. It just won't.
\"But, but the lack of engine vacuum will interfere with my power brakes/steering etc.\" Not really, but if that concerns you, let's move to ...


FACT 3: The Power in \"power brakes\" doesn't matter in an emergency. Really, it doesn't. The *only* thing power brakes do is reduce the pedal effort required to produce a given braking force--that's it. THE BRAKES WILL STILL WORK FINE. You just have to push--hard!
\"but, but the article says it will increase my braking distance from 200 to 1,000 feet\" Actually, it doesn't say that. What they are referring to is the brakes VERSUS the engine in gear--but that's not a problem for you because you know fact number one--you can be in neutral at any time.


Fact 4: Power steering does nothing at high speeds, and is NEVER necessary for steering. Yup, good news, just like power brakes, \"power\" steering is simply a way to reduce the effort it takes to turn the wheel. That's it. You can *always* steer the car, regardless of whther the \"power steering\" is working or not. Even better news--at higher, scary speeds, the power steering isn't doing anything at all, even when the system is working properly. Power steering exists solelyto make it easier to turn the wheel on a heavy car at low speeds, nothing more.
\"But, but, I have \"electric\" power steering, not \"vaccuum-boosted\" steering.\" Doesn't matter--the mecahnical connection between the steering wheels and the road wheels remains unaffected by any boost system in existence. At this time, there is no purely steer-by-wire system on the roads.


\"But, but, you're just some random guy on the internet, how do I know this is true?\" Good point--please *do* check out all of this on your own--you'll find it *is* true, but hey, the more you know about the operayion of your car, the better off we'll all be. Some starting points for non-grearheads would be \"Car talk\" on the NPR web-site and the \"for dummies\" series books.

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whytcolr
October 8, 2009 6:59 PM
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@treimel: As was mentioned in an above comment, and in one of the linked articles, it might not have been obvious HOW to shift into neutral. Remember that this was a loaner, so it was unfamiliar to the driver.

Now -- Look at this image, which is the shifter for a ES350: [l.yimg.com]

Does forward on the shifter shift to neutral, or does it shift up a gear? My best guess is that you need to push up and to the right, but I'm calmly looking at the shifter while sitting at a computer -- not hurtling towards death at 120mph.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 7:40 PM
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@whytcolr:
Well, the point of my comment is that de-bunk the commenters who were somehow opposed to the very notion of shifting into neutral--those folks are just dead wrong.
As to it being confusing, ... welll, it's gated, so you simply push it as the gate allows.
Nevertheless as you say, I'm sitting at a computer, and because we're talking panic mode here, let's stipulate that this is somehow tricky to operate. Do you know how long he was experiencing this problem? Two and a half minutes. That's right, two and a half *minutes*, not seconds.
I reiterate, this was a terrible tragedy, and it is not my intention to besmirch this person's character in any way, or suggest that this family \"deserved it.\" They didn't. Moreover, Toyota should never have put them in this position in the first place.
Nevertheless, I think it is fair to say that the failure to not discover how to push the gearshift into neutral in a couple minutes is evidence of panic, not a confusing design. Seriously, absent panic, moving the gearshift randomly will find it. Absent panic, you can calmly ask a passenger to move it and *look* at the indicated position. There's no indication that he tried putting it in neutral, and it's certain that 911 didn't tell him to (inexplicably to my way of thinking.)


I understand that all this requires you to be thinking clearly, but that's what gets me about this thing--I'm not kidding when I said that this happened to my Triumph's throttle *routinely* Because of that, it wasn't panic-inducing. The point of my comment, though, is to de-bunk the nonsense that's been said *about* shifting into neutral, not finding neutral. For that, I can only advise folks to familiarize themselves with any car thaey drive.

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whytcolr
October 8, 2009 8:40 PM
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@treimel: I probably wasn't exactly clear, as I completely agree with you regarding the general ignorance about how cars work (both shown here and experienced in the real world)... I was just pointing out that the shifter is actually not as straightforward as most cars. Maybe I just don't drive nice enough cars, but I can't think of one that I've driven where I was even a tiny bit confused about where neutral was. (I'd think that most common is -- push one position forward.) In fact, when I read that the gear selector was \"confusing,\" I actually thought \"How could it possibly be confusing?\" I'm sure I'm not the only one.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 10:18 PM
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@whytcolr:

It does seem like driver unfamiliarity may well have been a factor here.

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zarex42
October 8, 2009 5:28 PM
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@treimel: Well done! The ignorance on this board is just staggering.

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EBounding
October 8, 2009 3:46 PM
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@treimel: Finally, a good comprehensive post. Thanks.

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Princess Leela
October 8, 2009 3:48 PM
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Wow, a whole bunch of people here are really, REALLY uncomfortable with the plain truth that humans occasionally panic and don't/can't think straight in an emergency. Yes, it could happen to you!

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halfcuban
October 9, 2009 5:24 AM
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@Princess Leela:

Evidently everyone on here if a goddamned ninja, cool under pressure, and not unlike Patrick Swayze in Road House. Except they wouldn't die from pancreatic cancer cause they would have self-diagnosed their case using the list of symptoms from the wikipedia article and cut themselves open to remove the tumor using surgery videos from YouTube. Aren't we all just superheros on the internet?

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mwigl
October 8, 2009 4:06 PM
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The following is from the NYTimes;

The consequences of such a mat jamming the accelerator can be severe, the report said.
\"With the engine throttle plate open, the vacuum power assist of the braking system cannot be replenished and the effectiveness of the brakes is reduced significantly.\"

The researchers said stopping distances \"increased from less than 200 feet to more than 1,000 feet.\"
In addition, while the driver only had to apply 30 pounds of force when the brakes were operating normally \"brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the vehicle.\"

The researchers also found that consumers were likely to have problems shutting off the engine because the Lexus uses a start button instead of an ignition key.

\"That removes the ability to instantaneously shut off the engine in the event of an emergency while the vehicle is in motion,\" it said.

The problem is that with the vehicle in motion the button must be depressed three seconds to cut off the engine. That's a safety measure to prevent the engine from being shut off inadvertently, Toyota said. But the report said owners would probably not know that because the owner's manual has no mention of the three-second requirement.

Brian Lyons, a Toyota spokesman, said 2009 owners manuals contain that information.

Also, the car was a loaner from their dealer while their car was repaired.

I have never felt the need to comment on anything I have read until reviewing
the amazingly unkind and ignorant comments.

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treimel
October 9, 2009 1:19 PM
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@mwigl:
Again, that 200 to 1,00 foot stopping distance increase assumes you're working against the engine--if the car is in neutral, the only consequence is the increased pedal pressure.

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IfThenElvis
October 8, 2009 4:56 PM
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Are modern high-end cars \"fly-by-wire\" or still have a direct mechanical link for shifting in automatics?

There is so much computer programming in cars now that I wouldn't be surprised if certain actions were not allowed. The only way to turn off the engine in the loaner was a 3 second button push.

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treimel
October 8, 2009 4:59 PM
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@IfThenElvis:


Shifting into neutral is \"allowed\" at speed. In fact, Toyota's press release recommended that very action.

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rcsfca
October 8, 2009 5:13 PM
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I think people are forgetting that in some cars, and im not too sure about this particular lexus, you can't shift the gear into neutral when the the accelerator is being used. Some cars offer this service as a protection against mistakenly bumping into the gearshift and changing the gear while driving. I know that in my honda, i have to remove my foot from the accelerator (while driving) before i can shift the gear to neutral.

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zarex42
October 8, 2009 5:28 PM
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@rcsfca: That's not true at all. You can shift into neutral (perhaps not park or reverse) on any car, regardless of accelerator position.

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rcsfca
October 8, 2009 5:43 PM
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@zarex42: I will test it out later this evening. I feel like in my Honda CR-V the shifter is locked when i am accelerating. I usually have to release the accelerator before being able to engage the shifter (note this is an automatic). I will do a test.

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treimel
October 9, 2009 1:22 PM
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@rcsfca:


You don't have to bother: it's a federal vehicle safety reg that there can be no lockout between the drive position and neutral.

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Avrus
October 8, 2009 5:16 PM
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This happened to a girlfriend of mine while I was in the car. It was a Ford Taurus and she panicked. I told her to put the car in neutral and turn off the engine.

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mythago
October 8, 2009 8:40 PM
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@Tiny Bug: This is what punitive damages are for, as Ford found out the hard way.

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From the cubicle of PGibbons
October 9, 2009 11:00 PM
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@mythago: I think the whole affair was a little tougher on the people that Ford killed...

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wiggatron
October 8, 2009 8:46 PM
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Tragic for sure.

But, this is just one more reason that I think the manual transmission should make a comeback. No stuck gas pedal will ever push me up to 100+ MPH speeds. Also, it keeps me focused on the road, and not my ipod, or phone, or whatever.

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IfThenElvis
October 8, 2009 9:01 PM
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Photos:
Interior and gear shift on a Lexus ES350:

[www.lexus.com]

[www.lexus.com]

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transamlarry
October 8, 2009 10:52 PM
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first of all i am so sorry that people had to die because of this, especially a cop. nobody's perfect, even a trooper can panic, and panic feeds on itself, the more people who are panic, the worse it gets.

read the nytimes article to see that the push button shut off is not a easy as it seems. lots of morons here, but some rays of light as well. i know for a fact certain cars will lock you out of gears, but not out of neutral. even so, look the gear shifter. if you are going 80+ mph, and you are panicking, and have a confusing control column, its not a good thing.
-the brakes. as someone mentioned, power brakes or not, the MAXIMUM breaking force on the rotors will be the same, the difference with power brakes is how much force the user needs to input.

One important point: when someone applies the breaks, they get their foot of the accelerator. but what happens if your foot is also on the accelerator? breaks will not be as effective, and depending on the thermal properties of the pads, interaction of the rotor, at 100mph stopping will be horrible.

finally, and most importantly, someone on this forum said that 5 problems out of 1 million dont warrant a recall. you are an absolute idiot. I can tell you as an engineer, we do these things called failure mode analysis, and we look to see every safety impact something can happen. even in a six sigma distribution, you still will need to recall even if 1 out of a million parts fail that lead to a catastrophic manner. i dont blame so much the engineers at toyota, but more so the upper management who was too lax and probably thought the same way you did.

ground the entire fleet? those managers thought to themselves, it would hurt their reputation and cost them a fortune, instead of trying to ride it out and issue a time based recall notice (neither of which they did).

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Spaceboy
October 9, 2009 1:38 PM
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No one else thinks that was extremely chilling?


The dispatcher heard their last words. I'd hate to die in total fear and panic - especially with my family dying the same way around me. Great way to start a Friday.

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From the cubicle of PGibbons
October 9, 2009 4:06 PM
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Wow. And I thought the reason people with Lexus and BMW products were all running people off the road at 120mph INTENTIONALLY. I stand corrected.

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From the cubicle of PGibbons
October 9, 2009 4:27 PM
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Since he was a trooper, perhaps he was panicking because he was torn between placing his attention into stopping the car, or excited because he had an opportunity to write a ticket to a guy speeding 120MPH down the freeway.

And you KNOW he ain't gonna take the lame excuse of \"the accelerator was stuck.\" Yeah, buddy - put these handcuffs on and tell it to the judge...

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Wang_Chung_Tonight
October 9, 2009 5:24 PM
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I am sad over this occurrence. A few things (if anyone is ever in this situation). My 2007 Camry's shifter is prob very similar to his Lexus.

1) yes shifting to Neutral-this is best and may even salvage the car (who cares when your family is at stake?)

2) 2wd cars I know brakes WILL overpower the accelerator, but you HAVE to pound them-make sure ABS kicks in. Car will spin but slow down.

3) shift the car into 1st gear. Your engine WILL break and lock up, again car will spin but slow down.

4) turn the key off. this will lock the wheels which is a definite spin but let friction take its course and you hopefully will make it.

Any other ideas?

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treimel
October 9, 2009 5:41 PM
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@Wang_Chung_Tonight:
In most cars, turning the ignition key to \"accesory\" (that is, not all the way off0 will keep the steering column from locking, but will shut down the engine.

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shades_of_blue
October 9, 2009 5:50 PM
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Apparently people are not aware of why NEUTRAL exists on their car. Someone needs to take drivers ed again.

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That's Consumer007 to you
October 9, 2009 8:32 PM
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Folks folks folks - we do not know from the audio what PRECEDED the call, and I really don't like all the inferences and ASSumptions that he didn't try these other various methods before calling.


It's prettry disrespectful to armchair quarterback a dead driver, let alone a dead trooper.

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okierivermama
October 9, 2009 10:09 PM
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I had a honda prelude do this once. The timing got knocked out of line with the accelerator wide open. It took absolutely standing on the brake with full weight to get it stopped. Fortunately it was close to home and easily fixable, but just sheer luck it didnt get away from me as a 17 yeaar old kid. Its quite possible with the accelerator wide open the brakes didnt work, and also that it was unable to shift. Some cars have to be in a coasting mode to shift them out of gear.

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StevenLevy
October 9, 2009 10:12 PM
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Has anyone actually tried to force the shifter into neutral with the engine redlining? It _should_ work, but then the gas pedal _should_ work properly too.


Panic is a leftover emotion from fight-or-flight days, often appearing when we can do neither. Like the engine in the Toyota, our body revs out of control on adrenalin, dragging our mind along with it. In panic mode, we cannot think properly, especially about circumstances we've not previously considered... such as our car speeding out of control against our will. I'm not sure why an officer would be any more immune to panic in this particular circumstance than you or I.

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JustTheFax
December 1, 2009 12:48 PM
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\"Has anyone actually tried to force the shifter into neutral with the engine redlining? It _should_ work, but then the gas pedal _should_ work properly too.\"

Yes. Not only that, the throttle was stuck 3/4 open. This was a car from 1967, with a broken left engine mount I was too cheap to fix (teenager at the time) and a type of throttle linkage which hasn't been used for decades. The linkage was quite reliable, but if you drove around with a totally broken engine mount, made a 90 degree left hand turn and booted the accelerator it could bind up.

So let's see: According to the people posting here, I'm now dead, or the car crashed. The evil big corporation is of course responsible, and the car completely took over, suddenly not responding to any controls. They New York Times said so, so it must be true!.

In reality I panicked for an instant - hey, that was a 462 cu in (7.62 liter) engine wanting to locomotive me ahead on a secondary road, and I was a teen at the time. Then (duh) like any normal human I nudged the shifter into N, which did not cause anything to blow up, glow red, produce radiation, magically disconnect the steering wheel or cause rabies. It did immediately disconnect the engine from the drive wheels, and also took the stress off the broken engine mount. I continued on my way, somewhat wiser about using machinery with worn out or broken parts. Oops, I forgot, that's impossible because it sez rite hear in the NYT/Consumer Reports/Tort Law Today that the situation can only end with a runaway vehicle crashing at top speed. I'm actually typing this from beyond the grave!

Of course, it's the corporation's fault for allowing me to continue driving without repairing the car, and there should be a magic giant hand which reaches down from the sky to save poor dear you in such times. After all, the heroic effort of nudging the shifter one notch is far too much to expect of people licensed to operate machinery that they and other people depend on.

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StarVapor
October 9, 2009 11:47 PM
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I have a 2005 Toyota Tacoma that is one of the recalled models.
I'm pretty mechanically and technically savvy and couldn't any way that the floor mat could cause the throttle linkage to stick wide open or otherwise, if it is attached to the floorboard with the hooks that are in place on the floorboard to hold it so that it cannot slide forward.
It's also a bit of a struggle to remove the mats from the hooks, so you know that they are there when you take them out and should know they need to go back in over these hooks.
I called my Toyota dealer service dept. and talked with the service rep who concurred with my observation.
He said he suspects that some customers didn't properly re-hook the floor mats after removing them to clean them and vacuum the floorboard carpets.

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timjohnson1717
October 14, 2009 11:52 PM
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I can change my gear shift from park all the way to 1st and back regardless of accelerator or brakes being applied/not being applied. Maybe instead of driving shitty new cars, we should drive something older that functioned better. not to mention that my accelerator couldn't possibly be jammed with a floor mat because it uses a big ass spring on the mechanical linkage to the engine.

hmmmmmm. i wonder.

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lacubsfan
October 16, 2009 2:03 AM
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Hey 911 operator.... HOW ABOUT SOME QUICK THINKING?! \"Sir, put the car in nuetral, pull up your emergency brake slowly while hitting your brakes\"


That would have saved this family.

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GadgetsAlwaysFit
October 18, 2009 12:12 AM
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Having read several comments about the notion that he should have done better because he was a state trooper has omitted something very crucial from that logic. Like most people, when they are on the job they are very different and in the zone, so to speak. On personal time, especially when with family, your mindset is quite different. Training cannot overwhelm the body and mind's response to a situation where you and your entire family are in mortal danger. That disconnect or compartmentalization you can apply on the job isn't there when you are with your family most of the time.

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soloudinhere
October 19, 2009 2:07 AM
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Some notes, haven't read through this whole thing, but as best I can tell from the news reports, this was a 2009 ES model, not a 2007, and it was a dealer loaner. The dealership reportedly had replaced the floor mats with all-weathers for an older model ES which did not fit.

They were not the factory mats. Thus the recall would have had nothing to do with this situation.

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soloudinhere
October 19, 2009 2:09 AM
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Also, we have a 2008 model ES, and I did NOT know that you can hold down the ignition button to kill the engine. In fact, I have no idea where the E brake in that car even is, and I've had it for more than a year. It is, however, incredibly easy to knock the shifter into N, they are in a linear path and I have even done that accidentally.

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Ben Popken
October 19, 2009 12:40 PM
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Loy writes:

\"Sometime in the late 1990's (don't exactly remember when), I was driving an almost-new Pontiac minivan with factory-installed cruise control. It was early in the morning with the sun peeking over the treeline; there was a nip in the air; the sky was a pretty blue behind a few clouds and harvested wheat stalks poked up from under an early-season snow on the fields on either side of the road. It's amazing how clear your memory can be when you're in mortal fear.

The car started going faster and faster. I braked, it helped only a little. I was still going faster. I popped my seatbelt and wedged the length of my body between the seat and brake pedal - the car accelerated slower, but it was still accelerating. I couldn't stop!

I was going well over 100mph before panic started to subside and I had the presence of mind to put the car in neutral. When I did, I almost immediately kicked it back into drive - the engine started revving so high I thought it was going to explode through the hood! But I couldn't stop any other way, so I put it back in neutral and prayed the engine would stay where it was while I braked and pulled over, then shut the engine off.

Turns out, the cruise control wire had caught itself on some piece of metal from the hood, forcing the throttle full open. That was all that was wrong with the car - nothing else. And I was not the only one - the dealership said they had a bulletin on it. But not a recall. I was lucky to have an empty straightaway in front of me or it could have been bad.

But, to all the professors making illustrious comments on this or that technical reason why the brakes should have overcome acceleration, I say this: test it in the field. I am not the only driver to try and stop a runaway car with brakes. It doesn't work, and you shouldn't encourage other people to rely on ivory tower theories, numbers on a chalkboard or the panderings of lawyers.

You put the car in neutral. You don't panic when the engine starts whining like a hummingbird in heat. You pull over and shut it off.

Hindsight is 20/20 ... I had about five miles of road to play with or I wouldn't be typing this. I hope the next driver has better information so they can be less panicked and make the correct choice faster.

Thanks.\"

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boomboom340
January 28, 2010 7:03 PM
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I feel for the family, but there are several things someone can do if they come into this situation, apply the parking brake, put car into nuetral, turn the ignition off, down shift into a lower gear,ride in the grass,

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paguilar01
January 29, 2010 3:38 AM
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We have a Toyota Corolla, a 2010 model which is faulty, my husband was driving home from work when the break pedal got stuck, luckily he's a very good driver and he put the car in neutral and was able to stop the car. He let me know in case this were to happen to me, since i wouldn't know what to do. I feel so bad for these people and although this could have been prevented some way, this unfortunately had to happen in order for the manufacturers to take some sort of action....I'm sure over there at Toyota their scrambling in their panties trying to figure out what to do, since they aren't selling any cars right now.

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lrudy
February 6, 2010 2:21 PM
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Has anyone considered that the trooper may not have been driving? This recording disturbed me. It was more than I expected.

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CarNutt
March 1, 2010 1:29 PM
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Aside from the fact this was a horrendous event for which I am beyond words, I have to say that in terms of driving any car....

Why do manufacturers sell ordinary family cars that can drive at 125 mph, when the speed limit is at most 80mph in the U.S.? I understand if you're going to track your car, but at least put a governor on cars at the factory.

And my advice:

1. Learn to drive a stick shift
2. Vote with your pocket book and don't be lazy. Buy and drive a manual shift car.
3. Don't buy cars with those ridiculous on/off buttons. You are paying $$$ for another electronic gizmo that can go wrong (and which can leave you stranded if it breaks at an inopportune time)
4. If you own a Toyota, join one of the class action lawsuits. Even if you never had this problem, who knows if you will or not some day. Maybe if enough people sue Toyota, they'll go out of business and teach the auto industry a valuable lesson.

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