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TheSkaAssassin - College Man
October 14, 2009 5:57 PM
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Why is it necessary to show the full CC numbers? Even banks don't do that and their site are far more secure.

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super
October 15, 2009 5:55 AM
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@TheSkaAssassin is no longer unemployed:

It is required by the FACTACT. FACTACT requires full account number disclosure. The purpose of this is for disclosure. It is to empower the consumer to get false items off of their credit report. In your normal credit report (not free annual credit report) the account numbers are potentially not the same as you see in a disclosure.

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azntg
October 14, 2009 6:30 PM
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@TheSkaAssassin is no longer unemployed: You'd be surprised, many banks out there still list full accounts numbers (deposit, loans, etc.) on statements [I'd argue that it's not necessary after the first and some even do that on their website.

I have to agree on your earlier point though. Why is it necessary to show the full CC numbers indeed?

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Stephmo
October 14, 2009 10:35 PM
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@azntg: Because as a potential lender, you may need to verify something with the other lenders on the account, or may be in the midst of skip-tracing and having full account information is the only way that you'll be able to do that type of thing.

In GLBA world, it's a bit more difficult, but the scenarios work this way.

Verification - you have written permission to verify from applicant. Let's say they really want a loan from you and they're claiming that the information on their account with ABC Bank is reporting wrong. You want to verify directly with the bank that all of those lates are, in fact, mis-reported and that the account is totally current. You will need to do this with the full account number.

Skip Tracing - in post-GLBA world, you won't really need account holder's permission and you'll see that there are probably issues with your account holder's mutual accounts. You share what little information you have on the mutual client with the other lender in exchange for their information in hopes that the two of you can both benefit and gain progress on your information.

You're not supposed to be pulling credit reports unless you're the person or you have a legitimate business reason to be pulling them. That's why.

Not to mention, when you only have a CC #, individuals are supposed to ask for the 3-digit security code when no physical swipe is available - along with the expiration date. These two pieces of info are NOT on your bureau. I'm curious as to what entity were able to run up 10K in charges without those additional pieces of data.

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Stephmo
October 15, 2009 1:12 PM
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@Stephmo: I see the article got updated some more and now it's saying that the thief used several different expiration dates and yet there's no mention of the security code...

Although that makes the challenge of the 10K charge that much easier since the merchant is so willing to confirm that they sent through a charge on a customer that was guessing at expiration dates.

Although this is starting to smell NOT like random stranger theft, but more like a relative stealing her identity. When you're answering the security questions on the TU site, there's a timer that prevents you from having the time to google the information on property ownership/car registration/other relative questions. I'd look to siblings/cousins or best friends. ID theft is sort of like murder anymore - rather than look for the bushy-haired-stranger, you'll want to look to the people closest to you.

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ShadowFalls
October 15, 2009 2:33 AM
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@Stephmo:

That information isn't required for every merchant.

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azntg
October 14, 2009 6:44 PM
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@azntg: Prematurely clicked on \"submit\" - now y'all know how I compose my messages :-)

I meant to say: \"[I'd argue that it's not necessary after the first three statement cycles or so]\"

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azntg
October 14, 2009 6:00 PM
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Looks like security is only as strong as the weakest link.

Am I the only one that's getting convinced that \"security measures\" imposed by the CRAs aren't there to actually keep crooks out, but to cause headaches for the hapless legit customer?

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jpmoney
October 14, 2009 6:32 PM
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@azntg: I really wish there were solid standards for storing, using, archiving, and destroying information for something that is incredibly important to all of our lives.

Why is this information not governed by laws, but by multiple profit-minded companies that speak different dialects?

I'm not asking for government run credit (though that could work in a utopian situation), but we need some major guidelines about what can be done to help you before, during and after credit card information is used. It would at least be nice to have some *severe* penalties for misuse or mishandling of the data enforced at the Federal PMITA prison level. Penalties for the crooks and the people who let it happen.

Bring on the red tape, it can only help??? When a company says \"trust me\", you can't (see: RIAA/MPAA/Cable Companies/really anyone looking for profit).

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jpmoney
October 14, 2009 6:33 PM
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@jpmoney: Ugh, no edit. Put a \"more\" in front of the severe in the 3rd paragraph. The laws are there, but they need to be more thorough and penalties more severe.

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wagenejm
October 14, 2009 6:27 PM
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@azntg: In my experiences, most security measures are only in place to show an appearance of security. The consumer who does not know otherwise is merely tricked into thinking their information is secure.

And yes, the most headaches are caused for the unsuspecting user who is trying to do everything according to the proper procedures.

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bohemian
October 14, 2009 6:19 PM
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@azntg: After trying to obtain our free credit reports from the various CRAs before we bought a house, the answer is yes.

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kaceetheconsumer
October 14, 2009 6:01 PM
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My husband and I were just discussing last night how the relative ease of obtaining personal information these days (compared to pre-internet days) makes us wonder how soon before the entire system requires an overhaul. After all, the current security mindset comes from those pre-internet days when the work required to steal the information was very high compared to the potential payoff, and now that has flipped. One insecure system can yield tons of great data to thieves.

It's gotten to the point that one can be a smart and savvy consumer, doing all the right things, and still end up hijacked like this. We're sitting ducks, and that level of insecurity can't be continued long-term.

I do hope that his wife isn't stuck paying for any of it, but still, what a headache and hassle.

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god_forbids
October 15, 2009 1:04 PM
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@kaceetheconsumer: In the end, most people don't lose any money.

\"The median victim had to pay $0 out-of-pocket and had his or her complaint resolved within five hours, according to Javelin's data from 2008 ... The real victims of fraud problem are retailers who have to absorb the \"vast majority\" of the losses and fees associated with fraud\"

[online.wsj.com]

And of course, 'the intenet' is somewhat of a red herring:

\"... approximately 14 percent of thefts occurred through traditional \"hacker methods\" such as Trojans, viruses, or phishing. Data breaches accounted for another 7 percent of thefts -- but even taken together, these account for less than a quarter of all ID fraud.

So where does the rest of it come from? About a third (33 percent) comes from physical theft -- a lost or stolen wallet, purse, or credit card. But a surprising 17 percent of identity theft is perpetrated by friends, relatives, or in-home employees\"

[darkreading.com]

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kaceetheconsumer
October 15, 2009 1:47 PM
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@god_forbids: Even if one doesn't lose any money in the end, lots of people have to go through tons of hassle to make that happen. I've known people who had to take time off of work to go to a central bank branch and bring tons of ID and such and then fill in reports and be looked at as if they were a phish-opening moron and jump through other hoops to have things restored.

And I've heard worse stories on NPR about people who didn't recover everything.

And yeah I'm sure the physical aspect still exists, it's just that that used to be ALL of it.

I got a call from my Canadian credit card company last month because someone had tried to use it with multiple failed expiry dates and that triggered a fraud warning. It mostly worked out okay for me and I didn't lose any money, however I did have to get a new card and because it's Canadian, it has the chip in it which most American readers can't deal with, which they tell me is fine for now and will still work, but if I want to use the chip I need to go into a branch to set the PIN. And I'm half a continent away from the closest branch.

Not that I was using the card much anyway, just enough to keep it active, but now I have an additional hassle because some internet store where I used it (I haven't used it in a physical way for almost a decade) got hacked or sold it or something.

The point is, I haven't been stupid and yet I have this minor hassle, and others have major hassles in a faultless way. That can't continue. The thieves are improving faster than the security.

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digisplicer
October 14, 2009 9:12 PM
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@kaceetheconsumer: My wife and I shred every single piece of junk mail that contains our address. We check credit (AND debit) receipts to make sure only the last four numbers of the card are displayed and I have credit monitoring provided by Costco. STILL somebody is able to steal my card info and use it to duplicate my credit card, racking up about two thousand dollars worth of purchases in local stores. We can't win with the current system in place.

By the way, I contacted the local office of the Secret Service as recommended by a finance website when dealing with credit card duplication (federal crime) and they never called me back. Must be low on their priority list :(

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mianne
October 15, 2009 7:41 AM
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@digisplicer: Shredding your junk mail, bank statements, etc. is like placing padlocks on the soffit vents in your attic, while there are millions of copies of your labeled house keys scattered all across the country and around the world.

You will make it much more difficult/expensive for a dumpster diver to collect your Personal Identity Information (PII) but it does absolutely nothing to stem the flow of your PII across multiple databases legally accessible by various private and public and to some extent, the general public--without your knowledge or consent in many cases.

Also, the Secret Service in addition of its primary mission of defending the President of the United States is also entrusted with investigating the counterfeiting of US currency. I do not believe credit cards are considered currency, so that's outside their jurisdiction.

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mac-phisto
October 15, 2009 11:40 AM
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@mianne: from the SS website:

\"Since 1984, the Secret Service's investigative responsibilities have expanded to include crimes that involve financial institution fraud, computer and telecommunications fraud, false identification documents, access device fraud, advance fee fraud, electronic funds transfers and money laundering as it relates to the agency's core violations. \"

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kaceetheconsumer
October 14, 2009 6:04 PM
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@kaceetheconsumer: My husband adds, \"The only thing keeping anyone safe is that there are just so many potential victims out there that the thieves can't get to them all.\"

Me: \"Yeah, it's like a really crappy lottery.\"

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Daveinva
October 14, 2009 6:12 PM
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@kaceetheconsumer: Perfect line. Awful situation, but perfect line.

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TheOrtega
October 14, 2009 6:06 PM
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So many failures to protect data at so many levels it ridiculous. You shouldn't have to go to a website to put a password on your credit report, nothing should be charged if the expiration date is put in wrong that many times. Maybe we need pin #s on all credit transactions too.
I remember the episode of CSI where the lady kills a thief that stole her identity like that, I was fine with it.

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KLETCO
October 14, 2009 6:23 PM
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@TheOrtega: Chase, at least, does this. I had someone try to buy something on the internet and they were obviously guessing at my expiration date. They put a security block on the card. Would have been nice if they'd called me, though. I had to be denied at a gas station before I knew something was wrong. The thief never got anything.

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SeattleTed is proud to like Robert Zimmerman
October 14, 2009 6:09 PM
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Well post a job ad on craigslist and you'll have 2 of the 3 bits of information sent to you by hundreds.

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hansn
October 14, 2009 6:20 PM
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@SeattleTed is proud to like Robert Zimmerman: All you need to do is email a paper \"application\" to people; together with some compliments on a fine resume, and you'd get a bunch of people's information.

The lack of security in these processes is inexcusable. To rely on the SSN to verify identity is idiotic. Every time someone gains the information to verify your identity, they also can impersonate you. It does not have to be this way.

I wonder if TransUnion exposes itself to any liability for revealing personal information with such absent security.

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mac-phisto
October 15, 2009 11:43 AM
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@VagrantRadio: same way you fax money. (i seriously get people that ask me to do this on a pretty regular basis)

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hansn
October 14, 2009 9:14 PM
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@VagrantRadio: You got me, make that \"pdf application.\" Many job applications are done entirely online.

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Brontide
October 14, 2009 6:17 PM
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@SeattleTed is proud to like Robert Zimmerman: SSN can be approximated by DOB and address. IIRC it's like a 1 in 1000 chance of getting the complete 9 digit sequence.

Of course if you target places ( like my old uni ) that used last 4 digits of your ssn for your UID then we are screwed.

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RedCatLinux
October 14, 2009 6:15 PM
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Many years ago, someone opened a Master Card account in my name, with a bank I already had a Visa account with.


When I saw what happened, I called the customer support line.


I went through the voice prompted system to an area for customer support. Off that menu there was an option: \"If someone has opened an account fraudulently in your name, press 4...\"


I had to listen to the menu twice because I was so surprised I missed the button to push the first time around. There was a freaking menu option for it.


This was a good 12-13 years ago, before everyone had quite embraced the interwebz.

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bohemian
October 14, 2009 6:22 PM
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So the information they request at any doctor or dentist is enough to steal your identity.

I quit putting my SSN on doctors office forms years ago and have yet to be called on it by anyone. Nobody has even mentioned the blank line on the form, let alone require it.

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kaceetheconsumer
October 14, 2009 11:43 PM
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@bohemian: I didn't have an SSN for ages after moving down here from Canada. Eventually I qualified for and got a tax number, and then later the SSN.

In the intervening time I had a hell of a time with doctors etc who always wanted the SSN. I wouldn't fill it in and they'd call me up to the desk or phone me at home to give it to them. They were constantly perplexed when I said I didn't have one, so I'd have to explain the immigration thing (apparently I neither \"look\" nor \"sound\" like an immigrant...not *much* racism in what people think about immigrants?!). Then they'd still be freaked out and not really know how to handle it.

I tried not giving the SSN at first when I got it because I wanted to keep it secure, but I got sick of being pestered and threatened with insurance non-coverage.

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trixrabbit
October 14, 2009 6:34 PM
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@bohemian: good idea. they don't need it. if they ask me, i return with \"are you going to w-2 or 1099 me?\"

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Copper
October 14, 2009 6:27 PM
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@bohemian: I tried doing that, but every doctor has always made me give it up. Says it's for insurance purposes. I've been to multiple doctors, talked with multiple nurses and it's always been the same.

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econobiker
October 14, 2009 7:40 PM
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@Copper: @trixrabbit:


Actually the REAL reason doctors offices want your SS # along with phone/address of a relative and even someone not in your household is often to be able to provide this information to debt collectors if you do not pay your bill. Where would the debt collector start if all he had was just one phone number and an address?

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webweazel
October 14, 2009 7:18 PM
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@Copper: We've left the space blank, too. 8 times out of 10, they don't ask for it. Of the ones who do, we ask \"Why do you need it?\" Usually for insurance billing reasons, they say. Okay. BUT, we asked one place, and they said, no lie, \"We put it on everything to identify whose it is.\" \"Um, what do you put it on?\" \"Oh, we put your name and SS# on X-rays, sample tubes and cups, anything we use in this office.\" \"NO WAY. Come up with your own internal number to identify me. You DO NOT have my permission to use my SS# in this way!\" \"She had not the vaguest clue that it should not have been used in this way, and didn't see a problem with it. (!) She grumbled and made up a number, but still. YIKES! Talk about dumpster-diving heaven! I'm pretty SURE they weren't shredding pee-cups before trashing them!

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Saltillopunk
October 14, 2009 8:41 PM
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@weazel662: If I remember correctly, use of a Social Security number as an ID number is against the law. So the office is committing a big no-no.

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RedCatLinux
October 14, 2009 9:49 PM
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@Saltillopunk: I think that the law actually takes a wishy washy line. I only remember this because I often refuse to provide my SSN.


I believe that the law prohibits any private company from requiring that you provide your SSN, except as required for certain types of financial/credit transactions, employers, tax purposes (normal stuff where you might expect it).


However it does allow a business leeway to refuse you whatever service you were seeking in exchange for the info.


[ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov]


I had a state agency ask me for my SSN to get an ID badge and computer account. I refused it. They said nothing and gave me the ID. Since they had issued me my state driver's license, which is used as legal ID everywhere else, I didn't see how they needed my SSN.

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Shadowman615
October 14, 2009 7:33 PM
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@weazel662: Dumpster-diving in the biohazardous waste bin is an odd version of heaven.

Not that I'd put it past some determined criminals.

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henneko
October 14, 2009 6:25 PM
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So, is FACTA only for credit card numbers on receipts, or can we finally hold a credit reporting agency responsible for screwing up?

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floraposte
October 14, 2009 6:51 PM
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@henneko: I think it's only merchants at point of sale.

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pot_roast
October 14, 2009 6:26 PM
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Probably tanked her FICO score (or it will soon) and there's little she can do to prevent it. All she can do is fill out forms and try to pick up the pieces.


Trans Union should pay the entire bill, and ensure that it vanishes from her reports for all eternity.

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wcnghj
October 14, 2009 9:43 PM
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@pot_roast: Report the charges as unauthorized, get money back from bank in a few days, card reports normal balance.

FICO remains unaffected.

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angryneo
October 14, 2009 6:37 PM
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Fortunately for me it was relatively easy to dispute fraudulent activity on my CR. Someone purchased jewelry on store credit at a store and state I have never been to. All I had to do was show proof I had not been in the store physically to make the transaction at the time of purchase (my deployment orders). Also, the fact I NEVER purchase expensive jewelry on credit helped my case.


I feel bad for folks that get taken for lots more.

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RandomHookup
October 14, 2009 7:49 PM
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@angryneo: Usually it's pretty tough to prove a negative.

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Stephmo
October 14, 2009 10:39 PM
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@RandomHookup: They'll look at normal spending habits, where the money was spent and - this is my lingering question - how the card number was processed without a swipe or three-digit code or expiration date.

They'll also want to ensure that she's not a chronic \"hey, my card got stolen again!\" person.

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tbax929
October 14, 2009 8:39 PM
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@RandomHookup:
I agree. How exactly do you prove you weren't somwhere? The only way to do it is to prove you WERE somewhere else. I can't tell you where I was yesterday, much less on some random date in the past.

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probablykate
October 14, 2009 6:37 PM
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I'm a little confused... what Transunion report has your full credit card numbers? I used to deal with credit reports for mortgage companies, and I'm certain Transunion didn't list the full CC numbers on there.

Are they talking about the credit reports you get for yourself online? Don't you need more info than SSN, address, and DOB for that?

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ARPRINCE
October 14, 2009 6:49 PM
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@probablykate: Transunion list full CC numbers on the credit report. I just got my free CR this week and checked it.

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secret_curse
October 14, 2009 6:45 PM
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@probablykate: If you're setting up your account with each credit union for the first time you need your name, DOB, SSN, and then answers to a bunch of \"security\" questions. The answers are all public records, though. If you've never had the questions, it'll be something like \"What county does your sister own property in?\" and there will be 5 or 6 possible answers. The answers would generally take time to figure out, but the information is public.

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Mecharine
October 14, 2009 8:20 PM
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@secret_curse: Everytime I tried to receive credit reports I would get to the screen where the security questions are supposed to display, yet I only get an error saying \"could not find records\". Should I be worried about that?

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Paladin_11
October 14, 2009 6:50 PM
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TransUnion definitely needs to correct this, but let's be honest here. Identity thieves don't have to work very hard to gather personal information when people *willingly give it away* all over the internet. Facebook, MySpace, family blogs with the names of children attached, family trees showing all of your relatives, photographs on Flickr... in a lot of ways we're our own worst enemies.

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BeFrugalNotCheap
October 14, 2009 7:11 PM
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My self being a rather dimwitted asshole I very rarely feel bad for some folks but this woman...Damn. I hope she gets this all straightened out. To the OP please keep us updated!

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theblackdog
October 14, 2009 7:29 PM
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How easy can a thief get a TransUnion report if you already have a security freeze on your report?

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humphrmi
October 14, 2009 7:59 PM
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@theblackdog_ReviewingCode: The thief went to the TransUnion web page, and armed with the victim's personal information, set up an online account with TU to view their own (or the victim's) credit report.

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incognit000
October 14, 2009 7:30 PM
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Okay so how do I go to this site and create this password? When I go to Transunion's web page, they direct me to one of those \"free trial\" credit monitoring services. I'm not about to slap down money for something I'm entitled to get for free, just to gain access to my own information, to correct a mistake some big company made.

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econobiker
October 14, 2009 7:43 PM
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@incognit000:I imagine you have to get into your Transunion report first (annualcreditreport) and then to set up a password that a thief would not know for you to get back into Transunion report.

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radman13
October 14, 2009 7:57 PM
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Bank of America let someone with my personal information reset my online account password, even though they had been told three times within the last 4 months that I was a victim of identity theft.


Everyone should put a security freeze on your credit file. Just go to the three credit reporting agencies (Transunion, Experian, and Equifax) and tell them that you have been a victim of identity theft and want a fraud alert and security freeze put on your account. Set up a PIN code so that no one can access your credit file without your PIN code.


Tell them that you also want to set up at \"Verbal Password\" and that no information should be changed (ie address, employment, phone number) without giving the verbal password!!!


Then call your bank and set up a \"Verbal Password\" that must be given prior to any account information change (ie online password) or information being given out.

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Stephmo
October 15, 2009 7:39 PM
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@radman13: Horrible advice. Because people do this in a panic when they see a news article/internet posting/tv report and FORGET that they did this.

And then when you want credit, it's a total pain in the ass for you, the consumer. Most lending institutions do not program for the PIN, or the PIN rarely works as intended (sometimes people are using 3rd party PINS like the ripoff that is Lifelock). Which means you need to call and have a 24-hour lift put on your account.

Or, at best, you have the \"you must always call to verify that it's me\" message on and hope that you never change the numbers you listed on the report a few years earlier.

Oh - and as far as the addresses on your credit file? Those are based on the addresses you provide to creditors, nothing that you provide to bureaus. So guess what - that cool idea you have about sending an extra bill to your office or your cousins or that Mailboxes, etc? That's what's jacking you up, not someone calling the bureau at random and dicking with your account.

Honestly, the people most likely to open credit in your name KNOW you - they're related, they work close to you and you tell them a lot about you. It's not that random.

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humphrmi
October 14, 2009 8:01 PM
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This is very easy for the credit monitoring / reporting web services to avoid. When I signed up for MyFico, they asked me auto-generated question from my credit report that only I would know the answer to. Like, \"In 1998, you opened a car loan account. What company extended this loan to you?\" and I had to answer correctly. I think it actually asked multiple questions like that.

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super
October 14, 2009 8:16 PM
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This is a disclosure report. By law (FACTACT) the credit bureaus are required to disclose the full account number for your free annual credit report.

Check out § 609. Disclosures to consumers [15 U.S.C. § 1681g] at [www.ftc.gov]

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rondalescott
October 14, 2009 8:23 PM
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Couldn't this be considered criminal negligence on TransUnion's part? Couldn't they be held liable for damages? At what point do these information aggregators become responsible for handing out your sensitive information to anybody who asks for it?

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humphrmi
October 15, 2009 6:33 PM
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@rondalescott: If @super is correct above, then TransUnion cannot be held liale either either criminally or in civil court for following the law. In that case, your only recourse is to petition your US lawmakers to change the law.

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strathmeyer
October 14, 2009 10:27 PM
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\"\"If you haven't already done it go right now and check your TransUnion credit report, set a password on the account to prevent thieves who know you SSN/Address/DOB from accessing it. If when you get there there is already a password and you didn't set it you're probably a victim,\" says John.\"

Reminds me of how one of Cisco's solutions to insecure hardware was to buy more of their hardware, or when McDonald's got sued for serving dangerous coffee and as part of the settlement had to put \"this drink is hot\" on all their cups.

Just more pandering to blaming the victim.

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420greg
October 16, 2009 1:43 AM
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Doctors offices that ask for you ssn are using it in case they have to send you to collections.

It is a violation of the Privacy Act of 1974.
When I was in the Navy every piece of paper that had your ssn on it had this privacy act of 1974 statement printed at the bottom.

About 20 years ago some states used your ssn for your DL number. It also used to be on all of your insurance cards and junk.

You do not have to provide it for medical care. If the Dr refuses to see you if you don't disclose, find a new doctor.

I have the 5the most popular first name and the 3rd most popular last name in the US. With out my social they would never be able to get a bad dept on my credit report. Dr offices are some of the quickest at reporting to your CR.

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