![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-350350-100x100.png\")
Two pieces of advice for the OP:
1} Never sell mobile phones on ebay. The last mobile phone I sold I did through Craigslist and the transaction went perfectly smooth.
2) Paypal is one the most horrible companies around. I do only small transactions on ebay now and pay with checks. I refuse to give Paypal any more of my business after they dicked me around regarding an account too.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-87429-100x100.png\")
I'd also say...if you are going to sell electronics, spell \"US only\". Dealing with these scam artists from other countries that know all the shifty ins and outs of money grams, check fraud, etc. just isn't worth the risk.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-6471-100x100.png\")
I'd say you only have two options at this point:
1) consider it a lost cause and walk away
2) Use your newfound lawyerly knowledge and sue them in small claims court.
Paypal is notorious for farking up and screwing customers in their benefit. And since they aren't a bank, but a service you can't beat them upside the head with banking laws.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/css/images/default.gif\")
@phate: Unless she wants to travel to CA at her own expense and sue Paypal in their jurisdiction in CA, she won't be able to use small claims......
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-1223549-100x100.png\")
Who told you that? Generally speaking, if the corporation does business in a given state, jurisdiction over the entity is proper. For Paypal, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's all 50.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-406173-100x100.png\")
@VeeKaChu:
PayPal is regulated by the Electronic Funds Transfer Act.
They are not allowed to withhold your money without any recourse or explanation.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-251907-100x100.png\")
@phate:It's sort of amazing that PayPal is allowed to have all of the benefits of a bank, without any of the regulations imposed on actual banks.
And this example illustrates very neatly exactly why banks are regulated; if they could dick around with their customers' money as they saw fit, which PayPal *is* allowed to do, they could make a fortune in interest simply holding it as long as possible for whatever stupid reason, which again, PayPal is apparently free to do.
It's legalized stealing, and it's made even more blatant when folks do as you suggest in walking away. In those cases (and from the looks of it there have been many), not only do they earn un-deserved interest, but they also gain the un-redeemed principal as well. It's probably the most luctrative scam on the intarwebs.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-24730-100x100.png\")
Sadly the only thing I can think of is to walk away from PayPal all together. If the negative balance hits your credit report or goes to collections, you can dispute and perhaps have the credit bureaus dig up some additional information that would allow you to show the linked account isn't yours.
Or, you could use Google Finance or Hoovers (or a similar service) to try and dig up someone's number at corporate - a direct line. Ask them how you're supposed to pay the balance if you can't even see it.
Here's wishing you success on the bar...
Once you pass that, take them to court.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-439021-100x100.png\")
I created my paypal account like 10 years ago.
When it first came out it was a great product.
Now its a useless POS.
The only people who use it are scammers.
I canceled my account (as best I could) after PP refused to do anything about the scams.
My experience contacting them and working with them as been a joke.
Might as well talk to a wall for all the good it will do you.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-318831-100x100.png\")
@lemortede: I'd LIKE to stop using them, and have managed to move everything I used to use them for to some form of alternate payment. I just have one recurring e-check payment still on PayPal. I changed bank recently, and the debit card PayPal has on file for me no longer works, as they'll learn when December rolls around and the e-check bounces.
I've tried to update my billing info with PayPal, but my password doesn't work, and they've apparently linked the verification questions from someone else's account to mine. I answer every verification question correctly, and they think I answered them all wrong. Even verifying I am who I say I am by entering my full card number doesn't help...they have no problem billing the card, but insist the number I enter to verify is wrong.
Right now, I've given up on them. I am hoping that that December e-check will fail as a declined debit (insufficient funds) rather than put a bounced check on my credit report. But until it happens, I have no way to find out.
@lemortede: Agreed - I stopped using them after a whole bunch of eBayers realized how buyer-friendly the service is, and filed fraudulent disputes. Cost me a lot of money and effort. I gave up on eBay at that point, too.
Once I got back into selling, I found out that Craigslist, despite its hassles, is much better. One small investment in a counterfeit pen and I had nothing to worry about.
As to the OP and some of the comments - it's hardly worth the small claims filing fee to fight for $24. Personally, I'd just give up and let it slide, as the amount of fight it would take wouldn't be worth my time. (Yes, I know it's wrong for them to take the money, but my personal cost-benefit analysis would fall on the side of forgetting about it.)
But there are definitely a couple of things to worry about in doing it my way. One is they may send the balance to collections. The other is that they probably have lots of her credit card and bank account info. They may just try to take the money out of her accounts. Obviously that wouldn't be good.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-257467-100x100.png\")
@Karita: I might be mistaken, not being all lawyery and whatnot, but I was under the impression you could include small claims fees as part of the filing
@coren: At least in my state, you have to pay up front, and the filing cost is now $75. I know you can get out of it if you truly don't have money, but I've never had someone apply for a fee waiver and have no idea if it's easy to get it waived. The small claims process isn't fast, either. Perhaps her state is different, but in CT it definitely wouldn't be worth it except on principle.
@Karita: Question. If Paypal sends the account to collections, wouldn't the OP then be able to get the details on the account and prove that Paypal screwed up the link?
@H3ion: Probably - but that'd be a lot of work. And it's never fun dealing with collection agencies.
1. Paypal should have long ago been deemed a bank and then regulated by the FDIC so they would have to follow banking laws. Instead, most consumers assume they are a bank of some sort when they are not. They craft their own \"laws\" screwing consumers left and right.
2. That said, I have sold on eBay in volume for years and know many others who have too. To have \"two recently disputed sales\" is very unusual. Why do I sense the OP is not entirely innocent here?
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-956386-100x100.png\")
@PLATTWORX: This is actually more common now than it used to be due to the fact that sellers can't leave negative feedback for buyers. More buyers are getting refunds or freebies from sellers knowing that they can't do anything to warn other users. And sellers are giving in to keep from getting negatives.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-21984-100x100.png\")
@LightningUsagi: +3 Ebay and Paypal jumped the shark by not allowing feedback by the seller on the buyer so buyers could rampently rip off buyers and it not be reflected. Ebay even spanked some sellers who put bad feedback text under positive buyer reviews. To many it seems like Ebay is trying to get an Amazon type model going- screw the little single seller and feed the big corporations...
RIP Ebay and Paypal
@LightningUsagi: +2. It was like that even before the changes, as it was hard to block buyers with inadequate feedback. I was a great eBay seller, and left after a several month period where buyer disputes went out of control. Paypal always sided with them, and I was out merchandise AND payment on a number of transactions. (Funny that my feedback rating never went down.) Then people started complaining about shipping rates when I wanted to use trackable shipments with signature confirmation. It stopped being worth my time, and I haven't looked on eBay in ages, as a buyer or a seller.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-1013854-100x100.png\")
@LightningUsagi: +1. I swore off selling on eBay after selling a brand new, with tags item of clothing, which the buyer then said \"smelled funny\" and was \"stretched out\". She disputed with PayPal claiming the item had been used (ew...). I sent receipts, photos of the item with tags attached, etc., all to no avail - PayPal refunded the buyer for the full amount including shipping, so I lost money on the deal. And I couldn't even leave a negative so other sellers would know.
eBay sucks. That being said, here are a couple eBay and PayPal numbers:
e-Bay, Inc.
408-376-7400
Toll Free: 800-322-9266
And another one: 888-749-3229
PayPal
1-888-221-1161
or 402-935-2050
Good Luck...
Paypal is rancid. Period.
Unfortunately, if you want to use eBay, you don't have much of a choice, unless you want to be waiting on checks from the buyers, most of whom are unwilling to do that in the first place.
I highly recommend opening a checking account solely for the purpose of Paypal. I don't do much buying on eBay, mostly selling, so the funds go through Paypal, to my separate checking account with my credit union. I log in to the CU's website and transfer the funds once they're in there to my regular checking account.
The reason being is that if your Paypal account is compromised, and it sounds like that's the case here, your CASH is not compromised. Do not ever, under any circumstances, trust Paypal. They are most certainly not your pal.
As far as advice, go with phate's option. Small claims court is the only place you're bound to get anywhere with Paypal, save for showing up at their door demanding answers.
eBay Park North
2211 North First Street
San Jose, CA 95131
but don't do what this guy did
[cbs5.com]
@sb01: Good advice except for one thing to consider. I linked my Paypal account to a CU account (with a very low balance). Last month, my Paypal account was compromised (a RapidShare account purchase was made). I successfully disputed the transaction, but not before an attempt was made to withdraw the funds from my bank account, which resulted in not one, but two overdraft fees. Just something to watch out for.
@sb01: What sb01 said. Do NOT, under any circumstances, link Paypal to your primary checking or savings account. If there's ever any dispute, they will freeze said account, and you will have no access to your own money.
If you need to use PP for some reason, open a separate account and only keep the amount you need for your PP transactions in it, and not a dollar more. Then if there's a problem, they'll freeze that account instead of your primary.
These are the inevitable consequences of Ebay putting the burden of a successful transaction entirely onto the seller, which they accomplished by gutting the seller's ability to report honest feedback about a buyer.
I used to sell and buy regularly by Ebay, but every since these rules have gone into effect, buyers have felt free to take exception for every trivial reason imaginable- and some are downright dishonest about it. All consequence free.
Ebay is broken, plain and simple.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-72559-100x100.png\")
@zandar: I had the reverse problem -- getting NO help at all as a buyer. I bought a piece of furniture from someone with a decent rating (sort of low #s but 100%) and got screwed by a scammer who knew how to drag things out so my time windows for filing complaints all ran out before I realized I was being screwed, and they were completely unwilling to help, at all. After weeks and weeks of hammering them every way I could find I eventually gave up. Still makes me angry to think about it. I have only used either service a few times since when the alternative was major inconvenience but I'll be watching those deadlines like a hawk.
Like right now I'm actually waiting for something I know is going to take a while to ship (preorder) and may not arrive before the 45-day cutoff, but I'm starting a dispute on day 44 even though I have no reason to believe it will be a problem because if I don't I'm completely out of luck if there is. Sucks for the seller but I don't really have an alternative (and I gave them a heads-up that I'd be doing it before I bought).
Seems like they won't help either buyers -OR- sellers. I agree they need to be regulated, either that or some competition -- the only reason I haven't dropped them completely is that there aren't many alternatives.
@thomas_callahan: Have to add that even though they knew that I had been scammed, they never closed the scammer's account and I wasn't allowed to give negative feedback to warn anyone else. The account is STILL open two years later. Hasn't been any activity on it since, guess they got enough and walked away.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-47390-100x100.png\")
When I had a paypal account breech problem, I started at the top of the phone list there in the executive dept and worked my way on down.
Things I did:
1. Filed a police report documenting the theft of cash out of my paypal bank account.
2. Filed a report with the FBI's Internet Crime Center.
[www.ic3.gov]
3. Called every executive number and taped each conversation, while telling them the call was taped and listening to them hang up or refuse to answer the questions.
4. Called Atty. General of Nebraska about fraud in Paypal.
Just keep working those phone and threaten to sue them for fraud in small Claims for the state allowed max. If they stonewall, off goes the certified letter.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-782863-100x100.png\")
First, I have only two words to offer the OP: \"Small claims.\"
Second, no response to an EECB? Looks as though PayPal/eBay has figured out ways to filter those, too. Anyone have any ideas on modifying tactics to get around that? I'm wondering if sending individual emails, at different times, to different executives, and with slightly-different subject lines and maybe even slightly-different message bodies, might be in order. Or maybe something else?
Third, I may complain about lawyers; nevertheless, best of luck to the OP on taking the bar exam.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-483565-100x100.png\")
@PsiCop: I suspect that it costs more than $24 to file a small claim in NY, though, so it could cost her money even if she won.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-93308-100x100.png\")
@floraposte: At this point I'd be more worried about my credit rating than the $24. If it was just the $24 I'd say drop it.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-1331296-100x100.png\")
@K-Bo: Under the fair credit reporting act you can sue for damages if your credit is messed up by something you are not responsible for.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-985949-100x100.png\")
I really wish I could use my google account rather then paypal when I use ebay...
I do not however keep a balance on my paypal account, I only use it for buying anyways, I have never had much luck selling anything on ebay, mostly phones, so I stopped trying to sell them, and turn them in at my local fire station who collects old phones for 911 service for battered woman.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-1237948-100x100.png\")
I am not a fan of PP. I would rather just not buy on Etsy or Ebay than use them.
Take them to small claims court if you can.
I had this exact problem with Paypal in July also. They linked my account to some dead beat's account and held me responsible for paying his debt. It turned out we had the same name (except for the middle name, which was different). It took a lot of calling and escalation and one person at Paypal I spoke to said he was the end of the line, there was nothing more I could do. I persisted, spoke to a supervisor, who looked at my account and the dead beat's account, and said basically \"there is no way this could be you\" and cleared it out. He also put notes in my account so that in case this ever happens again, it should be easier to resolve. It was a huge hassle. My guess is that Paypal is using a thirdparty company which locates delinquent account holders. The only problem is, if you have the same name, you might be screwed. In the case of my issue, the deadbeat had a disputed ebay transaction. Paypal awarded a refund to the winning bidder but could not get the funds back from the seller. I had to explain to Paypal that I never sold that item on ebay which was in dispute, they could look it up if they wanted. Keep persisting.
Didn't they teach you anything in law school? Threaten them with a class action.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-762676-100x100.png\")
The eBay/PayPal organization is inherently evil. Their black souls exist only to find joy in inflicting pain on others... Use them only as a last resort. Which unfortunately happens from time to time, since there realistically aren't good alternatives when you need such a service.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-125641-100x100.png\")
I'm surprised, given her background, that she doesn't consider legal action. Small claims, maybe.
I had a very similar dispute with them a couple of years ago. A friend used my mailing address and then ended up owing Paypal some money. They froze my account after selling a laptop. I jumped through their hoops, even going so far as to send them copies of my ID and my friends ID to prove that we were not the same person.
They denied all of my appeals.
I contacted the district attorneys office in Santa Clara, CA as well as the CA Department of Financial Institutions. I also sent a copy of all of this to their CEO at the time.
I got an apology and my money released very shortly after doing all of this. They are not a bank but they do answer to some authorities.
Also, at the time they kept telling me that their user agreement gave them the authority to hold my money. Nothing tripped up their reps more then telling them that you read the agreement and have a copy in front of you. Not a single one could point to the section that gave them the right to hold my money for what they considered suspicious activity.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-163313-100x100.png\")
I never did have any luck resolving a similar issue, but I did get their attention - yet another complaint has been filed with the BBB in San Jose. Highly recommend trying that route - I did get a response from PP through the BBB, although never directly. And the issue did not get resolved, but at least there's yet one more complaint on file with another agency.
Plattworx: As far as the comment about looking at the original OP - that was uncalled for. I had a wonderful '100% positive feedback' account with eBay and Paypal for almost 10 years until PP finally got around to screwing me. PP regularly screws their honest above-board customers. You are lucky that it hasn't happened to you.
We need a Federal investigation into PP, that's for sure. They screw people in so many ways and have made the news for same in so many ways I'm surprised the Feds haven't stepped in.
I have to chime in here to say this:
DO NOT SELL PHONES ON EBAY!
That's if you're expecting an immediate payment of course.
Awhile ago I sold two iPhone 3Gs on eBay for $1600, both phones sold for $800. Each time, the buyers decided not to leave feedback, so payment does not come in unless shipment is verified or 21 days pass. Both times you would have to wait for Paypal to verify the claims that it shipped (even though you give the rep the tracking number over the phone, so that's 3 days, plus an additional 4-5 days for the money to clear to your account. You end up shipping the items to wherever the destination is at your own expense!
Terrible all around. Just terrible.
I still can't use paypal. They locked my account because of the fact that an old bank account which is no longer active, was flagged as fraudulent. No matter who I contacted at paypal, they all told me that I was using a fraudulent account and that the email associated with that account was locked. I tried explaining that the account wasn't fraudulent, it was CLOSED because I switched banks. They didn't care.
Paypal lost my business, meh, no great problem on my part I say. They just lost more business and a very vocal person who tells everyone NOT to use paypal. Nothing worse for a business than bad word of mouth
@amberlink: This is exactly the situation I am in right now. I've switched banks, the debit card # I had linked to my PayPal account no longer works. I can't contact PayPal to update my billing information (my password doesn't work and all my verification questions fail, since the answers from someone else's account have apparently been linked to mine).
Going by what you said, I can probably expect my PayPal account to be permanently locked sometime in December...
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-887707-100x100.png\")
@amberlink: Keep calling them over and over and over. Call them again and again and again. When they figure out you are doing this and ask why, tell them you enjoy watching clues bounce off the heads of idiots.
Well, maybe I've been lucky. The only thing paypal has ever done to me is limit me to $500 withdrawn in a month. They say I need to link to a bank account but I already have. I've given up.
Here's my Paypal horror story and the reason I no longer have an account... I sold an item around 2002 and the buyer paid for priority shipping in the hopes that the item would get to him by the weekend. (It was a gaming set that hadn't been released to the general public yet, and he wanted it to show off at his next gaming event.) However, he didn't pay me until the middle of the week, so it didn't arrive in time. He left me a positive saying it had arrived and he was happy, but a week later, he filed a claim with Paypal saying he'd never received it. I had already pulled the funds out of my account, so my account went into the red and I couldn't use the account unless I funded the deficit, which I refused to do. Paypal ignored all evidence that I had that he had received it, including tracking number, and the signature confirmation from the post office. They ended up siding with him after months of me mailing and faxing and calling them. And when I tried to file a police report against the buyer for mail fraud, I hit roadblocks with the police as well.
My account has stayed frozen with a negative balance since that time, and I can't attach my email address or bank account to another account. I'm happier that way. I use my husband's account occasionally, but if there is another payment method offered, I use that without hesitation.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-824808-100x100.png\")
The whole PayPal/eBay partnership is a filthy tryst. The current practice of eBay is (apparently) to screw the honest sellers in favor of scam artist buyers. And PayPal's monopoly needs to end. The TrustLink (prominently linked on the BBB website) rating for PayPal is 1 out of 5 stars, based on 51 current customer reviews, most of which use adjectives like horrible and scam. Even the BBB website gives it an A rating, demoted from A+, which is significant, even if it doesn't seem to be.
We can only hope that the more people wise up to these shady dealings, the more the need for legitimate payment options will resurface.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-97354-100x100.png\")
Using Paypal is a chance every transaction. Scary.
People at PayPal should be hauled out in front of the TV cameras in handcuffs. Everyone who works there knows this and they all must have a creeping suspicion that someday it might come to that.
Their behavior certainly borders on racketeering.
That being said, this picture of PayPal President Scott Thompson shows a guy with a sort of \"Ken Lay\" look. Either completely oblivious or maybe completely complicit. Hard to say.
Some agencies, like the FTC, don't care that much for PayPal so a rerun of the EECB with them in the CC line might have more punch.
You live in NY State. I also live in NY State. There is this guy in the AG's office named Andrew Cuomo who loves to eat these guys for lunch, breakfast AND dinner.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-219008-100x100.png\")
Call them, write them everyday. They are sleazebags and don't use them again!!
I have had trouble with Paypal before. I purchased EBay gift cards at my local grocer, tried to use them, and fail.
Customer service was useless. I tried a few times and just got the runaround and ignored.
So I wrote a brief letter to general counsel outlining my complaint. It wasn't long before they gave me my money. I think this is a worthy companion to the EECB; for issues where the company is clearly in the wrong, general counsel is usually quite quick to pick up on it and make sure the company does right.
I've since made this my regular habit, I'm not interested in escalating things with customer service, or wasting time with customer service. If I'm denied something I'm entitled to, I end the call, then mail off a letter to the company's legal dept. Works well!
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-246207-100x100.png\")
No to blame the OP, but selling software without the physical media is potentially illegal. Shipping installed software on a computer without somehow releasing your license to the new owner can get you in real trouble if you are not careful.
Same thing happened to me. I opened my account in 2006, they told me I need to pay off a negative balance that I incurred in 2002.
Those idiot trained monkeys are only able to read their screen and see \"negative balance\", they literally could not understand what the problem was. Fortunately I had gotten all my money out so I just abandoned the account.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-278189-100x100.png\")
Contact your state's attorneys general office. Several have managed to get Paypal's attention and resolve issues. At least they've been successful in levying fines for questionable practices.
Bill B
\"There's a special place in Hell for bankers.\"
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-376925-100x100.png\")
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-545239-100x100.png\")
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-980257-100x100.png\")
The time you'd spend fighting Paypal to get that $24 isn't worth it, especially considering your legal qualifications (that's 1 hour of work for a paralegal).
I'd suggest cutting your losses and moving on.