@gStein_has joined the star bandwagon: This is a very interesting system. I have been a Dell customer for a while, simply because I could get the best options for my dollar with various discounts, and they seemed to have the options that I was looking for. Recently, as my needs have changed, Dell simply isn't offering the right set of options for me, and other manufacturers have been, but they also tend to include a lot of options that I don't want otr need, or are overcharging for upgrades (I specked out a computer yesterday, and the manufacturer wanted $350 for a second hard drive that I could buy at NewEgg for $75).

I would love to be able to design a system generically with my minimum requirements/needs and have all available options from all manufacturers come back so that I could compare prices and \"extras\" that are included.

$\"user-pic\"$

LMacConn

@Rachacha: You could order a barebones system and either build it yourself, or find a place that does custom designs. Ordering a custom (in my experience) costs slightly more than building the desktop yourself, but significantly less than through one of the major manufacturers.

On the other hand, it's a gamble. I never really know the strengths and weaknesses of these places that do barebones & custom systems, probably some guy running a business out of his basement, buying the parts off NewEgg and maybe Monoprice. It's not uncommon for me to spend time afterward tweaking the computer the way I want it, but it's a good trade off to pay a little more to get someone else to do the parts I don't feel confident doing myself.

$\"user-pic\"$

@LMacConn: i'm studying IT right now, and several students in the program are doing that to make money... i think one kid charges $50 + 10% of parts.

$\"user-pic\"$

revmatty

I've no intention of buying any Windows PC, but if I were I would want one that didn't contain any of the bloatware/crapware. I'm quite sure that a lot of Microsoft's historical problems with reliability have been caused by the junk the VARs add to the machines.

5 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

TechnoDestructo

@revmatty:

Absolutely.

3 of their last 5 major Windows releases have actually been decent. (2000, XP, 7) At least, if you do a clean install they're decent.

$\"user-pic\"$

Xerloq

@revmatty: By VARs I assume you mean OEMs and vendors, right?

$\"user-pic\"$

dorianh49

@revmatty: I build all my own computers, except for laptops. To me, that's what makes Windows PC's so fun: the ability to completely customize and put it together yourself.

$\"user-pic\"$

proskills

@dorianh49: You're saying this like you can't do the same thing with every other operating system out there besides OSX...

$\"user-pic\"$

magic8ball

@dorianh49: I make my own bloatware at home.

$\"user-pic\"$

dorianh49

@magic8ball: We should go into business together.

$\"user-pic\"$

MostlyHarmless

Okay people, listen up. Saying \"but it already has windows\" used to be funny 10 years ago. Now its just as old as jokes about guns and religion. Please control your urge to make stupid jokes.

8 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

CarbonFiberFootprint

@MostlyHarmless: Since when are gun(?) and religion jokes not funny?

$\"user-pic\"$

AngryK9

@MostlyHarmless: \"Bloatware free\"? So, they sell systems without Windows? Swell.

(Just for you, Harmless :| )

$\"user-pic\"$

umbriago

it's not funny unless you type it all 90s style: Micro$oft Window$

There's a great number of people Apple has alienated too....like Time Capsule buyers.

Me? I hate both operating systems equally.

$\"user-pic\"$

dorianh49

@umbriago: or call them Microshaft Winblows

$\"user-pic\"$

2 replies

@What The Geek:

Didn't MostlyHarmless already cover this above, just in a more concise way?

$\"user-pic\"$

Spoony Bard

@MostlyHarmless: But it already has windows.

$\"user-pic\"$

Spoony Bard

@Spoony Bard: Incidentally, people that try to preempt stupid jokes irk me.

I'm just saying.

$\"user-pic\"$

@MostlyHarmless: come on, by this point, you must know that attempting to stop the jokes jut causes them, right?

Oh, and i never had a problem with bloat.
I got a mac.*

* DISCLAIMER: i did not actually get a mac.

$\"user-pic\"$

GitEmSteveDave: #RosaRocks

But can't I go to Geek Squad and get an optimized PC? I mean optimized means they took all the bad stuff off, right?

2 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

TechnoDestructo

@GitEmSteveDave: #RosaRocks:

It means keyloggers and botnet scripts are pre-installed.

$\"user-pic\"$

Kimaroo - 100% Pure Natural Kitteh

@GitEmSteveDave: #RosaRocks: If I didn't know you that well I would just nod and smile and pat you on your widdle head.

$\"user-pic\"$

goodpete

Sounds like a great idea for Microsoft. Whenever I buy a pre-built PC, I always start out by wiping the drive and installing a fresh copy of Windows. I've found that PCs run far better when they have a fresh OS and all the latest drivers (from the hardware manufacturers' websites).

Heck, Geek Squad will charge you a hundred bucks or so to do just that.

Anyway, I can see this being good for Microsoft because it gives them a chance to tune the OS to the PCs and show people what they can really get out of a certain PC.

3 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

lmarconi

@plamoni: Agreed, it sounds like a great idea. Some companies give mostly useful bloatware, but it's still bloatware. Others, like Dell, basically bog down your computer with bloatware to the point where you're better off wiping the hard drive and reinstalling Windows.
I think Microsoft would be very smart to offer bloatware free computers because they'd be eliminating one of the main detriments of buying a PC.
I'm wondering if these will be offering bloatware free PCs by most the major manufacturers or by some special manufacturer that they give a contract to. If they get the major manufacturers to agree to this, it could potentially be awesome.

$\"user-pic\"$

@plamoni: so, my brother got a new Toshiba last weekend. Saturday, to be exact. 2 days after win7 was released.

we were having problems enabling all of the features on the synaptics touchpad, so i went to toshiba'ss website, whivch told me that the computer we had was too new to be in the system. so i had to go to the synaptics website to download new drivers.
for a computer that had only been on the market for 2 days.

(yes, i understand that toshiba probably compiled the OS and drivers months ago, then synaptics noticed a problem and published an updated driver, and that the specific laptop we bought has probably been sitting in a warehouse for at least a month, but it's kind of ridiculous that toshiba didn't have the PC on their website yet.)

$\"user-pic\"$

dohtem

@gStein_has joined the star bandwagon: That's not too bad.

I installed Windows 7 on my dell laptop months ago (thanks to MSDNAA). All the Vista drivers worked excellently and it was easy as pie.

Last week, I tried that on the gf's HP laptop and went through hell trying to get drivers for that. Windows 7 drivers didn't exist on the website and their Vista drivers are hard coded not to install on anything but Vista.

$\"user-pic\"$

Kimaroo - 100% Pure Natural Kitteh

I would just hope that you get an official Windows Install disk when you buy a PC from them.

1 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

Raeth

@Kimaroo - Fortified with Kittydus Purrularis:

Too much to ask for, apparently.

$\"user-pic\"$

vladthepaler

If you'd made it to the second paragraph of the grueling two-paragraph original article, you'd know the computer aren't going to be bloatware-free at all. They're just going to be preloaded with Microsoft brand crapware instead of third-party crapware.

5 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

RvLeshrac

@vladthepaler:

You mean Security Essentials, which handily beats the crap out of all other free AV solutions (as well as the majority of paid ones)?

Perhaps you mean Windows Live Essentials, which provides Windows Live Mail (which is miles better than Outlook Express, which thankfully died years ago), Messenger (which millions of people will install anyway), Photo Gallery (which beats anything you wind up with from HP/Epson/Canon/Olympus, losing out, *maybe*, to Picassa, depending on preference), Writer (useless, but hardly a huge app), Movie Maker (enough for 99% of home-movie-makers, and doesn't require tons of esoteric configuration like most free video editors), and the Live Toolbar (OK, I'll give you this one)?

I'd give you a pass on Bing 3D Maps, but we're talking about 1mb.

The only one that you actually get \"stuck\" with is the Zune software, but that's like complaining that Apple installs iTunes on every Mac.

Where are the complaints that OSX is \"bloated\" with all that \"crap\" like iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie, iWeb, GarageBand, and iDVD? These are, functionally, the same things you're getting with Live Essentials.

$\"user-pic\"$

RogerTheAlien

@RvLeshrac: Other than iTunes, isn't all that other stuff only available if you buy iLife? That's hardly bloated. But I think the main point is that the Mac \"bloatware\" is all Mac-built, whereas, until recently, Windows machines have come with lots of third-party software that can be a PITA at the very least, or ruin a machine at the very worst.

$\"user-pic\"$

RvLeshrac

@RogerTheAlien:

To quote Apple, \"iPhoto, iMovie, GarageBand, iWeb. All part of every new Mac.\"

And no, the point of most of the people whining about MS is that \"MS is still installing bloatware.\" The point you're reading in would actually be *valid*.

$\"user-pic\"$

Applekid

@vladthepaler: Microsoft bloatware is pretty well behaved, actually.

There's a lot of wrong ways to code a Windows app, as anyone who's had to debug other company's stuff can tell you. When computer manufacturers go \"lowest bidder\" with their proprietary software and get paid for some junk do you get weirdness like three or four different applications all waking up after inserting a blank CD, 5ms polling on your USB net to see if you pressed the mute button on your keyboard (\"did you press it now? Did you press it now? How about now? Now? Did you press it now?\"), and crapware automatic updates that peg your CPU at 100% half the time.

$\"user-pic\"$

Chris Walters

@vladthepaler: Yeah, that's the part I quote from the in the gray box up there.

$\"user-pic\"$

vladthepaler

@Chris Walters:

If I'd made it to the second paragraph of your article... sorry, my bad.

$\"user-pic\"$

dohtem

... they will be installing all of the optional Microsoft software that you would otherwise have to download. This includes Windows Live Essentials, Bing 3D Maps, Security Essentials and the Zune client.

I was going to bag on them but I really can't call that crap software. Zune Desktop is awesome (but a resource hog), Security Essentials is great, Live Essentials too but I have no need for it. Never tried their Bing Maps.

It would be nice is they offered an option of a pure Windows 7 install though.

But like someone said, I wanna know about the hardware.

4 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

rickhamilton620

@Rachacha: I can see where your coming from, but it's important to remember that many of the apps in Windows Live essentials were taken out of W7, in order to stave off AntiTrust issues, along with giving MS the ability to update the apps faster than releases of Windows. Movie Maker is gone, along with Windows Photo Gallery, Web Filtering, and Windows Mail. Although I personally never used those features in previous versions, I could see how it could be off putting to people coming from XP or Vista that had those features. :)

Your right though, there should be two options-perhaps a Signature model with no bloatware, and a \"signature premium\" model that includes Windows Live.

$\"user-pic\"$

Rachacha

@rickhamilton620: I don't need any of those applications either. Adobe Premier Pro CS3 that I use has much more capability than the free items that come with live essentials. SOme people may want those things, that is why I think it would be nice if you could select a check box to install Live Essentials along with the Chinese Language pack if you wanted it. The Check box would simply prompt the installer to go out to get.live.com and walk the user through the download process.

$\"user-pic\"$

Rachacha

@dohtem: I would not have a problem with those options if they gave me the option the first time I start the computer to not install those products. I have one machine that is primarially dedicated to audio and video editing, and I try to keep it in its pristene state. I have the full office suite on it and my audio/video editing software and a very lightweight AV software. No security or Live essentials, no Google maps, no iTunes or Zune Desktop, and none of the optional Windows accessories are installed. It is truly a very basic system.

Sure, I can uninstall all of those programs, but why should I have to when they are not critical to the proper operation of the OS.

$\"user-pic\"$

econobiker

@Rachacha: Come on, we want to make sure that seaport.exe is still included from Mircosoft...

$\"user-pic\"$

What The Geek

No bloatware? That's awesome! I just assumed any PC sold at the Microsoft store would come with Windows installed. That's very good of them to provide PC's without it.

ZING!!

3 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

Agent19488

@arstal: CCleaner is no substitute for a clean install, although it is quite awesome when you don't feel like going through a clean install...

$\"user-pic\"$

DH405

@What The Geek: Can you really say \"ZING!!\" about having just told the oldest joke on the Internet?

$\"user-pic\"$

Rachacha

@What The Geek: That would be \"BING!!\" to you

$\"user-pic\"$

guern

Wait....

Windows *IS* bloatware.....

$\"user-pic\"$

Radi0logy

I misread the title as \"Microsoft stores to sell Bloatware, Free PCs\". Needless to say I was scratching my head on both of those products...

3 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

mike

@Radi0logy: That's how I read it too. I kept waiting for, \"It will be just like freePC.\" Remember them?

$\"user-pic\"$

Coelacanth

@Radi0logy: You're not the only one.

I was thinking, \"Huh, is this the new NetZero of PCs?\"

$\"user-pic\"$

GreatGerm

@Coelacanth:

You have to love commas, they help you understand the difference between, \"Let's eat, Grandma\" and \"Let's eat Grandma!\".

$\"user-pic\"$

Coelacanth

@GreatGerm: The only problem there is that a comma wouldn't have been a grammatically correct way to adjoin bloatware and free PCs.

$\"user-pic\"$

arstal

It doesn't have to be Microsoft.

Usually most gaming-oriented PCs/laptops don't have a lot of the bloat. Of course you do pay more.

CCleaner is the best resort for dumping the bloat, and it's free.

2 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

@arstal: erm, CCleaner doesn't remove the same type of bloat mentioend in teh article... it cleans up stuff like internet cookies and files that programs create for short-term use, like cache and other temp files.

The article is talking about bloat like \"Bejeweled 2009 Deluxe 14-day trial\" - you know, the garbage that OEMs put on the PC because companies have paid them to do so.

$\"user-pic\"$

arstal

@gStein_has joined the star bandwagon: It does clean those out pretty well, all you have to do is uninstall the programs.

$\"user-pic\"$

GreatGerm

You have to love commas, they help you understand the difference between, \"Let's eat, Grandma\" and \"Let's eat Grandma!\".

1 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

GreatGerm

@GreatGerm:
Silly comment, you were supposed to be a reply.

$\"user-pic\"$

scootinger

Microsoft needs to make offering bloatware-free PCs a condition of PC makers being able to license Windows. You shouldn't have to go to an overpriced Microsoft store to be able to buy a PC without crap on it at retail.

If MS was able to strong-arm PC makers into not offering Netscape on their computers, then why can't they do this? (I don't think this would fall under antitrust, as they would simply need to give the user an option to remove crapware.) If you don't give the buyer an option to cleanly remove all of the crap off of their computers...then too bad, no Windows for you.

1 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

RvLeshrac

@scootinger:

That's funny, Netscape came with every machine for a dozen years. It was part of AOL.

Currently, Sony ships Chrome on their machines, *AND* they set it as the default browser without giving you an option.

$\"user-pic\"$

suburbancowboy

Decrapifier

$\"user-pic\"$

econobiker

What? No more free trials from AOL on the desktop?

$\"user-pic\"$

rickhamilton620

You can also buy these PC's from Microsoft's revamped online store. [store.microsoft.com]

$\"user-pic\"$

PsiCop

Or, you could buy an Apple ... ALL Macs are sold sans the 3rd party crud.

Sorry folks, couldn't help myself there, it just slipped out ... ! :)

3 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

Agent19488

@PsiCop: The 1st party crud is just as bad.

$\"user-pic\"$

seanhcalgary

@Agent19488: Yeah, iLife is such crud. I hate that Apple includes it.

$\"user-pic\"$

RvLeshrac

@seanhcalgary:

Well, that's what people are implying when they say that Live Essentials are \"crud\"!

It includes the same tools Apple gives you with iLife.

$\"user-pic\"$

ElizabethD

@PsiCop:

Totally understandable.

$\"user-pic\"$

CumaeanSibyl

It's not terribly difficult to reinstall Windows. A pain, but it's the best way to get rid of all of the bloat.

1 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

quail

@CumaeanSibyl: Not many PC manufacturers give you the simple Windows installation disk. They all have that crap sequestered into a partition on the HD that you're suppose to make a supportive copy of using 2 of your own DVD-Rs. (Yes, I'm shaking my fist at you HP/Compaq, you no good russenfressenmessen....)

$\"user-pic\"$

ElizabethD

Microsoft Stores... Oh man, can't that company do anything that isn't a blatant copy of Apple's original ideas?

Sorry. I'm biased (she says, tapping on her iMac...).

3 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

hi

@ElizabethD: A store that sells computers is original?

Like Gateway?

$\"user-pic\"$

seanhcalgary

@hi: What has MS done in years that's original?

And I'm not knocking them for the sake of it. It's a legitimate question, I think.

Google has a search engine and sells ads, so MS has to have a search engine and sell ads.

Apple sells a music player, so MS has to have one of their own.

Nintendo/Sony make video game systems, so MS makes the Xbox.

The list can go on and on. I have no idea why MS can't stay in software and be excellent at it. If they put all of their resources into a core business, I have no idea they'd excel. Windows and Office would be light years ahead of where they are now. Instead, MS just plays catch up on most fronts.

$\"user-pic\"$

RvLeshrac

@seanhcalgary:

Except that the 360 has largely outdone Nintendo, given that MS has catered toward the groups that N has abandoned.

MS sells a music player because iTunes for Windows is crap. Microsoft's upperfilter/lowerfilter FixIt tool is directly a result of Apple's screwing around with the useless GearASPI. Also awesome: iTunes has a history of failing completely at burning CDs, primarily because they use GearASPI instead of Microsoft's disc burning API. Works fine on the Mac, where they use OS-native tools, so why can't they do the same for Windows, where MS has made the same tools available?

And why do you cite Google as Microsoft's inspiration for their search engine? Microsoft decided to create their own search engine because they paid for third-party search engines and suddenly decided \"Hey, we can save money and exert control over our search branding by bringing this in-house!\" Further, Google is hardly the first search engine (that would be ARCHIE for FTP, VERONICA for Gopher, and Excite for the web), and not even the first commercialized search engine (Yahoo). Google was one of the last viable search engines produced.

In fairness, Microsoft *has* copied some of Google's initiatives, but Google can hardly be considered the \"inspiration\" for anything involving search. They refined it, didn't invent it.

$\"user-pic\"$

PsiCop

@hi: Yeah, those Gateway Country Stores preceded the Apple Stores, didn't they?

$\"user-pic\"$

hi

@PsiCop: yuppers

Gateway 2000 Country Stores, Inc.: Nov. 9, 1996
Apple Store: May 19, 2001

$\"user-pic\"$

Starfury

I plan on building a new desktop system next year and will put Windows 7 on it. I figure by then any minor bugs will have patches and the hardware vendors will have good drivers. My 6 yr old system is just not cutting it anymore.

$\"user-pic\"$

danno5-0

When one buys a new laptop or p/c, isn't the copy of the operating system, provided by the manufacture, attached with bloatware-so even wiping the hard drive, performing a reinstall, will not help?

$\"user-pic\"$

halcyondays

Computer? I'll just stick with my abacus.

$\"user-pic\"$

XTC46

Just in case you dont know, that bloatware subsidises the cost of the computer. This is why low end computers (like those 300 dollar compaqs etc) have tons of it, but if you buy a business series dell it does not. The cost is no subsidies by trial software (although it does include all of dells free software, which I find failry useless).

So sure, bloatware free by all means, but expect to pay more.

$\"user-pic\"$

Paladin_11

Well if they're selling them bloatware free they won't mind if I walk in and install Karmic Koala on it, will they? And just hand me my rebate for the Windows license I do. not. want.

OEM's pay Microsoft for Windows. If I want a PC without it I shouldn't have to pay for it.

$\"user-pic\"$

LastError

Here's the thing: there is nearly nothing more boring than a fresh Windows install.

Congrats! Your computer has a new OS on it! You can now DO... damn near nothing until you start installing stuff like web browsers, office suites, games, media players, etc.

Bloatware and pack-ins suck. But sometimes they at least give you something to do out of the box.

$\"user-pic\"$

P_Smith

If you want a windoze PC without bloat, you build your own.

Microshaft doesn't encourage bloat as a way to reduce costs for consumers. They do it to increase their own revenues.

$\"user-pic\"$

TVarmy

Sounds nice, but I'd personally just build my own computer. I guess this is good for people who are less technically inclined, though. Granted, Microsoft would still get my dime because of the Windows license.

I wonder who the OEM is going to be.

$\"user-pic\"$

chris_d

Great... but how much does it cost? OEMs get paid to put bloatware on it. That's one thing you rarely see in the PC/Mac debate: how well does your new PC work with all the crapware that comes preinstalled? How long will it take you to remove it; since you often aren't provided with any method for a clean windows install. Emachines used to take about 2 hours to run all the uninstallers.

And what does a PC without all the bloatware cost?