var json_comments = new Array("
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dionicios
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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I'm gonna guess that significant factor #5 was blacked out because it had something to do with the people being burned inside of the car after the crash.

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That's Consumer007 to you
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@dionicios: I'm going to guess it was something damning for which they should be sued and fined heavily and fined extra for covering it up.

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Clumber
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Areyouagoodlittleconsumer: IMHO if there is anything even remotely true about \"onboard computer has a lockout that won't let you go into neutral if you're going above 15 or 25 mph. \" then suing every involved party going back 20 generations into their ancestors will not be enough.

Once, in one of my \"other lives\" I was driving an autistic client on the freeway. She was belted in the back seat. Without warning (which is how any of my stories from that career begin) she lunged forward and grabbed the parking brake with both hands and yanked back with every ounce of force in her soul. I was driving an automatic at the time (not my car) and discovered firsthand that one can, indeed, throw a car into neutral at freeway speed. Keeping from doing 60mph donuts, that was probably just a combo of luck and terror.

grabs my PC and hugs all the pretty pretty zeros and ones of my current career.... sweet, sweet beautiful zeros and ones.... my precious....

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Trai_Dep
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@dionicios: Nah, that portion contains the findings that the smoking remains taste almost like BBQ chicken. But are in dire need of a dipping sauce.

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Hoss
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@dionicios: Well, they already blamed the driver saying the main cause was pushing the gas to the floor.

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Sian
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Hoss: which is a reasonable thing to do when the pedal gets hung up on the floormat. Stomp it and it can come loose.

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P_Smith
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Hoss: The car makers are still blaming \"the nut behind the wheel\", as Ralph Nader described it.


Nothing changes in forty years except it's Japanese companies blaming the customer for their poor manufacturing.

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GitEmSteveDave: #RosaRocks
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Hoss: My 1985 Olds sometimes gets the throttle stuck, and the only way to cure it is to hit the gas to unstick it.

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floraposte
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Hoss: I don't think that's what it says, though. The gas pedal was \"depressed in a full power position,\" yes, but that's a statement about the pedal's position on post-crash examination. There's no suggestion that the driver used the gas pedal improperly; it's that the mat slipped and got the pedal stuck all the way down.

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gStein_*|bringing starpipe back|*
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@floraposte: my mom has an 05 RX-330... been about a month since i drove it, but, if i recall correctly, the acceleration isn't based on how far the pedal is pressed, but based on how hard you press it

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GitEmSteveDave: #RosaRocks
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@gStein_has joined the star bandwagon: I hated my Mom's 95 Monte Carlo for that reason. In my cars, it's how far the pedals are down, so it's easy to know the angle for the speed you need. On her car, it hits a spot, and if you want to go faster, you push it down like 1/2\", and it will just keep on accelerating.

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Muthafodder
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Muthafodder:

The report mentions a 'gouge' in the 6 foot embankment...there is an obvious scar in the embankment. I wonder if this is from this crash or an earlier one?

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TVGenius
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Muthafodder: It's not from this one. There has been work to extend the 52 east from this interchange that is not reflected in this image.

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pmcpa4
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Muthafodder: I see that also, but upon street view inspection, it appears to be a dirt access road.

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Muthafodder
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@pmcpa4: @pmcpa4:

I dunno, there is damage in the curb from something hitting it and there is no transition from the road to the curb...it's curbed all the way.

If you move you mouse just right you can zoom in and see the curb damage. I looked around and didn't see any skid marks.

EDIT - I do now see a tube framed gate.

I can't believe he made it to the T-intersection without hitting another car coming off that long off-ramp at 100+ mph.

That's gotta be the spot though, you can see a small body of water. The vehicle must have came to a stop near the wood-line, as the report stated it hit an incline of the upward slope of the riverbed. That is a long distance off-road.

I couldn't imagine being the driver/passenger in such an accident. I'd like to think they were killed instantly upon hitting the first embankment.

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michelsondl
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Muthafodder: There's not an off ramp where cars enter the highway. The 125 North just ends at a stoplight right there or you exit onto that ramp to hit the 52 West. It was right around rush hour but the traffic is usually going the other way, from he 52 East onto the 125 South, suring that time of day

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spazztastic
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@floraposte: More significantly, it states that the brakes showed signs of 'endured braking' That means the driver had either pulled the parking brake and/or had depressed the brake pedal fully and held it for an extended period of time. I think there is something else wrong with the vehicle; why didn't the driver just hit the gearshift and knock the car into neutral?

But notice the report indicates the floormat in the vehicle was the WRONG floormat for the vehicle.

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RedwoodFlyer
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@spazztastic: The parking brake would have worn out the inside of the \"hat\" of the rear rotor; the fact that the brake pads were engaged and that the visible surface is fried to hell is consistent with pressing the brake pedal.

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floraposte
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@spazztastic: Maybe the driver was too panicked to think about neutral; maybe he had heard some of the things commenters mention and thought it was going to be even more dangerous. catastrophegirl notes that her transmission is more complicated than that, too, so it's possible that he ran afoul of the loaner car's unfamiliar practice on that.

We're not going to know the answer, basically, but there doesn't have to be anything wrong with the car for that not to have been the solution.

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RedwoodFlyer
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@floraposte:

Exactly. This vehicle was equipped with a transmission that had no mechanical linkage to the knob, and the onboard computer has a lockout that won't let you go into neutral if you're going above 15 or 25 mph.

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spazztastic
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@floraposte: But he was a 19 year veteran of the CHP. In my mind, I would think he tried everything he could have to stop that car. That's why I believe there was something else wrong. And as other commentators have pointed out, there isn't supposed to be anything preventing you from putting the car in neutral while in motion; I know it's worked that way on every car I owned.

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mariospants
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@spazztastic: True. I was always under the impression that the engine torque was not capable of exceeding that produced by the brakes. Perhaps the stupid anti-skid feature took care of that little detail for him?

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RedwoodFlyer
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@mariospants: The engine torque may not exceed the braking capacity; however, when momentum is thrown into the equation, it tips the scale.

Also, as brakes heat up, they become less effective, and I'd say these brakes faded asap.

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floraposte
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@spazztastic: He was on the phone the whole time and never mentioned throwing it in neutral. It's not like stopping a speeding car is a key part of CHP training, after all. Much as we'd like to believe that you can be made panic-proof, it's actually pretty tough to do.

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hedonia
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@floraposte: I thought the documents said that the brother in law in the back seat was the one who called 911.

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ohenry
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@hedonia: You're right, they do say that in the reports.


Looking at the Google Maps street view, I know that the guy was panicking and all, but...I guess I would have sided against the guardrails earlier on the highway if I were him. There were pleny of them there, and if nothing else it would have killed his speed enough to give him some more time.


I say this sitting in my comfy cubicle at work, and definitely not in the situation...but still, I guess it just overall seems like there are a number of options that he had to stop/slow the vehicle that he did not use.

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Hoss
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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Such a sad case. I wondering if high healed shoes and boots could also get caught. I'm sure the driver would just pull the shoe out, but seems that the gas pedal is too close to the cab floor?

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6 replies
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katstermonster
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Hoss: Driving with heels can be dangerous, depending on how the gas pedals are configured. I have an '07 Honda Civic (with automatic transmission), and I don't feel comfortable driving it in anything over a 1\" heel, because I have to rest my heel on the floor met to depress the accelerator, which leaves me prone to slipping. It gives me very little control over the the force with which I push the pedals.

On the other hand, I drove my mom's '05 Scion xB (standard transmission) in heels last weekend and was perfectly fine. The pedals are set up in such a way that I can place the balls of my feel on them without my heels hitting the floor. Plus, people tend to use a full-leg motion to drive stick, as opposed to the foot extension you might use on an automatic transmission.

And floor mats only add to the problem - hells get stuck in them really easily, especially in my Civic. It's just not a good time.

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GitEmSteveDave: #RosaRocks
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Hoss: So you're saying the CHP officer was a cross-dresser, or enjoyed woman's footwear?

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Rachacha
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@GitEmSteveDave: #RosaRocks: Not to make light of the situation, but all I can picture is Eric Estrada dressed in a 1970s female disco outfit.

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GitEmSteveDave: #RosaRocks
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Rachacha: Why is no one buying my Estrada booty shorts?

Estrada!

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Hoss
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@GitEmSteveDave: #RosaRocks: Wondering if there is more of an issue than just matts. We just bought a new Camry!

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Hil-fish
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Hoss: I don't think proximity to the floor is the issue - the pedals have to be close to the floor, or else people wouldn't be able to easily flex their ankles and knees to depress them. I think it's more a matter of the floor mat shifting position and becoming wedged against the pedal, thus holding it down.

I actually had the opposite problem once - the floor mat in my car got bunched up behind the pedal and made it difficult to depress. About scared me to death - I kept imagining what could have happened if it had gotten bunched up behind the brake instead of the gas.

And come to think of it, that was a Toyota, too...

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RedwoodFlyer
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Hil-fish: That's why BMW has it right...they have it setup so the pivot is at the bottom, and your foot depresses the pedal in a natural, fluid motion:

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Bathmat
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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What a horrifying display of unintended consequences. Who would have expected that something as seemingly innocuous as a floor mat would be this large of an issue. That said, the lack of a way to disengage the engine in an emergency is also not so awesome.

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6 replies
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webweazel
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Bathmat: All of this emergency info was drilled into to me in driver's ed class. Going to neutral would have been my first thing. I do NOT like this push-button crapola, and won't buy a car with it. I also will NOT buy a car that I cannot unlock and open the door just by using the handle. In an emergency, the handle is the first thing you aim for. If I've got to fumble with the lock, probably in a panic, before getting out, the car stays on the lot. I know, loaners and rentals are different, but I check the handles/locks anyway, so they are somewhat familiar.

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webweazel
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@webweazel: If the gas pedal sticks, give a hard tap to see if it breaks free. If not, put in neutral, steer to a safe area, turn off motor, and apply brakes to stop. (Or turn off motor last.)
If the brake system fails, steer to a safe area, put the motor in neutral, (so you need less braking to stop) turn on your hazard lights, (because you won't have brake lights) HOLD the parking brake release button/lever (do NOT let it catch) while slowly applying the parking brake until you stop.
If a tire blows out at high speed, DO NOT hit the brakes. Stay driving straight, even if you have to fight it a little. Do not jerk the wheel. Steer GENTLY to a safe area, and let the car slow down on it's own. Downshifting can cause trouble here, also. Apply brakes GENTLY only when your speed is very low.
Out of control, aim for \"soft\" areas to hit to slow you down; hedges, small fences, even grassy lawns. Avoid trees & hydrants. Even gently skidding down a row of parked cars will work, but your insurance guy will hate you.
Every situation is different, but if you know these facts, it might keep you calm enough to think things through, and react appropriately in most situations.
Anybody have more?

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pullapint
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Bathmat: There is. Under \"other significant factors\" #3 states holding down the start button for 3 seconds shuts down the engine, but that it was not posted on the dash. It was probably in the manual but how often do we look at that when getting a loaner or renting a car.

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floraposte
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Bathmat: There is, as the article and CR tests indicate--you can put it in neutral. Don't mess around with the keys, just put it in neutral.

I hope I never need to remember this under driving conditions, but I think I'm likelier to now with this sobering reminder.

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treimel
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Bathmat:


This has been covered, a lot: there was, and is a way to disengage the engine in an emergency--put it neutral. There is, by federal law, no mecahnical or electronic impediment to doing so in motion.

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nsv
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@treimel: Unfortunately, one of the side effects of traveling out of control at 100+ MPH is that you don't have a lot of time to think the situation through. He clearly did what a lot of people probably would have done: he stomped on the brakes.

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katstermonster
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@nsv: Ummm I would argue that having your passenger call 911 and have a conversation with the dispatcher leaves you with a lot of time to think about the situation. I believe he probably just didn't know that putting the car in neutral was even a viable option.

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SlappySquirrel
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@katstermonster: I didn't know that putting the car into netural was the thing to do in this situation until I read about this story.

The 911 operator didn't know either.

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aliminx
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@SlappySquirrel: This is exactly how I feel. Maybe I'm a moron, but I didn't know this, either. I'm glad that I just learned something from this horrible accident, but I didn't know it prior.

My boyfriend did, and I'd like to think that this cop knew, but, obviously not.

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AirIntake
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@nsv: If you have enough time to make 911 calls, you have enough time to put the car in neutral.

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GTI2.0
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@nsv: This is *NOT* blaming the driver, however he *did* call 911 - if he had time to talk to 911, he had time to think. He probably just didn't think to throw it into neutral.

Hopefully they will also educate 911 operators to help people think of this solution if it happens again...

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nsv
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@GTI2.0:

He should have bought a manual transmission car. A real car.

Hmm, perhaps I misunderstood. I thought that means that the driver bought a car with an automatic transmission, a fake car. Please clarify what this sentence means.

From the report above:

The vehicle was a loaned Lexus ES-350

and:

According to the 911 call made by the brother-in-law sitting in the back seat of the Lexus

The driver didn't have time to call 911. The brother-in-law in the back seat wasn't in a position to do anything else.

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TreyWaters
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@nsv: The brother-in-law in the back seat wasn't in a position to do anything else.

In most cars I have been in, I can reach the gear selector from the back seat easy enough to push it forward into Neutral.

Exceptions would be SUVs/trucks where the gear selector is on the steering column. But in a late-model car, where almost all are between the front seats, he would have been able to reach the gear selector.

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zarex42
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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Maybe #5 was about them being able to shift into neutral within a split second, but for some mysterious reason didn't realize it or attempt it.

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1kamaz
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@zarex42:


Like most other things in that car, the transmission is electronically controlled. You should have no problem shifting into neutral in motion, but I guess it's possible that it won't allow you to do it under hard accelleration. I've never driven that car or any new Toyota for that matter, so it's just a guess.

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soloudinhere
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@1kamaz: Let's reiterate, FEDERAL LAW DOES NOT ALLOW THERE TO BE ANY GATES BETWEEN ANY FORWARD GEAR AND NEUTRAL. EVER. You could be driving an SL65 280mph on a track and shift it into neutral. Regardless of whether you're flooring it or not.

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mariospants
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@zarex42: I figure all of our first attempts would be at trying to unstick the pedal. Still, if the brakes weren't slowing down the car, hitting park, reverse or neutral would be the next option.

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Hil-fish
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@zarex42: \"some mysterious reason\"? Like panic or terror? Panic makes people do odd things. Experts say you should teach your kids that the number to call in an emergency is 9-1-1, NOT 9-11, because in real emergencies people who were panicking have been known to look for the \"11\" key on a phone. Which sounds funny, but it can have dire consequences.

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zarex42
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Hil-fish: The guy was a 19-year veteran of the police. If anyone had been (or should have been) trained to act rationally in a stressful situation, it would be him.

It's very tragic that panicking cost him (and the others) their lives.

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LadySiren is murdering her kids with HFCS and processed cheese
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@zarex42: I'd cut the guy some slack - just knowing that his family was terrified and in mortal danger might've been difficult to get past. I don't think blaming the driver instead of the faulty car is justified. My opinion, anyway.

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zarex42
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@LadySiren: Once again, the guy was a cop. They're supposedly trained to act rationally in stressful situations.

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LadySiren is murdering her kids with HFCS and processed cheese
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@zarex42: Agreed, just saying it's probably a heckuva lot harder when it's your own family.

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floraposte
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@LadySiren: I'm with you. I think people underestimate the extent to which adrenaline makes reactions difficult. It doesn't help that much to be trained to deal with difficult situations if you haven't trained--not just been told, trained--on that particular situation.

I didn't know about all the weird stuff like the Lexus' inability to be turned off with just the key and the transmissions with strange electronic demands, so this topic has been a real eye-opener for me.

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treimel
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Hil-fish:


Nobody has yet explained why the 9-1-1 operator didn't advise to do it--presumably that person wasn't panicked.

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IfThenElvis
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@treimel:
\"Nobody has yet explained why the 9-1-1 operator didn't advise to do it--presumably that person wasn't panicked.\"

The 911 operator did have time to suggest turning off the engine.

911 Dispatcher: \"I'm sorry?\"
Lastrella: \"Our accelerator is stuck. We're on 125.\"
911 Dispatcher: \"Northbound 125. What are you passing?\"
Lastrella: \"We're going 120. Mission Gorge. We're in trouble. We can't … there is no brakes. End freeway half mile.\"
911 dispatcher: \"You can't do anything like turn off your engine?\"
Lastrella: \"We're approaching the intersection. We're approaching the intersection. We're approaching the intersection.\"
Others in the care are heard saying \"hold on\" and \"pray.\"

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treimel
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@IfThenElvis:


Yeah, I heard the tape, and I was stunned. I still can't quite conceive of why the operator didn't say to shift into N. I can honestly say that's the first thing I would have said.

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Wombatish
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@bubbledumpster: Why would you even go there? Really?

It's one thing to be snarky in an article about Target's funky prices, and completely another in an article that features the violent death of a family.

Sorry, but you rubbed me the wrong way. (And it has nothing to do with religion, I'm Agnostic.)

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tonalanswer
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@bubbledumpster: I don't think that word means what you think it means.

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Hoss
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Hil-fish: But they were in control enough to call 911.

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nsv
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Hoss: The brother-in-law in the back seat called 911, not the driver.

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AirIntake
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@nsv: If anyone in the car had enough time to make phone calls, then the driver had enough time to put the car in neutral. He simply panicked.

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GitEmSteveDave: #RosaRocks
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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So the brother made the call. That makes much more sense to me, as does the fact that this was a loaner car, which means the driver would not be familiar with every nuance of it's operation.

As for part 5, I'm guessing it was something either grisly and/or personal, which is why it was redacted.

I think the EDR hasn't been recovered yet because due to the damage, it probably has to be sent to a special facility for recovery, and all sides will probably need a representative there to observe the reading.

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yzerman
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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I was discussing this with my dad the other day as he is a car nut. His suggestion wasn't to put the car into Neutral as it would cause the RPMs to cause the engine to blow but to just cut power to the engine.

At a high rate of speed if you lose power steering your able to still turn the car fairly easily until you slow down which at that point your safe and you didn't destroy your car engine.

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8 replies
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Fist-o™
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Talk about Reply Blowback Amplification!

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suburbancowboy
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Fist-oâ„¢: Yeah, and by the way, the rev limiter would prevent the engine from blowing,

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Tightlines
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@yzerman: Read number 3 in \"Other significant factors.\"

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Haughey6
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@yzerman: Hmm blow the engine on a loaner or die horribly in a fiery crash, difficult choice.

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treimel
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@yzerman:


First, mall odern cars like this one have a rev limiter that prevents the engine from blowing. Second, who cares about a blown engine compared to these consequences? Finally, power steereing doesn't do anything at high speeds. Bottom line, if you're able to put the ignition into \"accessory,\" hgreat, that'll work. However, it wasn't obvious how to do that in this car--shfiting into neutral *always* works.

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blah12345
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@yzerman: Putting a car into neutral won't cause the engine to blow since most, if not all, cars have a rev limiter.

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_NARC_
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@yzerman: There was a HUGE discussion about this in the previous story (linked above). I hope this one doesn't go the same way.

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Infinitrium
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@yzerman: The rev limiter would keep it from blowing up.

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Overheal
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Ben Popkin: I recall once downloading a disclosed government document with similar blackouts within it.

Unfortunately the doofus (THIS WAS AN FBI DOCUMENT) who published the PDF did not for see that I would use my mouse to select the text - all of the classified items were quite visible after the fact.

Of course it was some boring internal memo that made no sense to me so I cant remember what it said. Said day.

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Overheal
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Overheal: Most of the article was published because it dealt with some pyramid scheme that the FBI had finished investigating, in case you wondered.

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yungjerry703
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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immediately this made me think of ed norton's day job in the movie fight club. i guess in this case the recall was cheaper than the law suits. this was such a terrible way to die. i once had a rubber house caught in the intake manifold that kept the rpm's at 2 grand. no where near as scary as full throttle would be.

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NJDave
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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Seems important too, and I don't remember reading it elsewhere: the floor mat in this case was for a different vehicle, a Lexus SUV. Presumably it didn't mate with the clips in the carpet, which is probably why it hadn't been attached. Note too that the car had no physical ignition switch that could be turned off, leaving one less option for the driver to stop the vehicle, and probably adding to his panic. The car was a loaner, and the driver may have been unfamiliar with this feature.

I know, a lot of surmising. I'm not trying to absolve Toyota, just noting that the circumstances in this case helped create a \"perfect storm\" for an accident. And though Toyota knew about the problem, we can't assume the dealership did when they put in the wrong mat.

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docrice
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@NJDave: word. There are a lot of things here that contributed to the crash, not just the \"killer floormats\":

-wrong floormat installed in car (dealer's fault)
-driver not familiar with the vehicle (even in a loaner car, you *should* read the operator manual)
-floormat jammed under accelerator
-driver did not take all steps to stop vehicle**

**-I would think a CHP veteran would know that if the car could not be shut off, it should be put in neutral. He had time to think about what to do here, but this didn't happen. Also, 911 operators should have instructed him similarly if they were on the phone long enough.

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econobiker
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@docrice: An issue with police is that they often think that they alway \"know and control\" the situation and don't think outside of the box especially if his guard was down by being off duty with family...

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Rachacha
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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With regards to the inspection of the Event Data recorder, this report is dated approximately 1 month after the accident, and was based on an inspection of the vehicle 4 business days (6 calendar days) after the accident. The inspector likely prepared the report the following week, circulated the report for internal clearance, review and signatures, and it was date stamped on the day that Mr Saul signed the document.


Accident investigations are very procedural in nature. You want to find out as much information as possible without destroying the evidence. It is possible that the EDR is somewhere in the engine or passenger compartment and to get to it would require taking a torch to the vehicle.


There is no conspiracy here that I can see.

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Buckus
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Rachacha: That's a completely sane and logical argument. Where's your conspiracy theory!?!

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floraposte
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Rachacha: That's a really useful explanation; thanks.

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A Pimp Named DaveR
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Rachacha: I just assumed that since the cause of the crash is clear and unquestioned from the other data available, there was no need to examine the EDR.

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SagarikaLumos
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@A Pimp Named DaveR: The EDR will contain such data as throttle position and engine RPM. That is useful as it tells how hard the engine was fighting against the brakes/how far down the accelerator was jammed.

The big question is whether it still contains any data at all after sitting for a month and having some fire damage.

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CaptainKidd
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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#2 is interesting, a floor mat that doesn't belong to the vehicle model in question. I'm now a little bit puzzled about the necessity for a recall. I'll assume that it's been confirmed that floor mats meant for the models in the recall also jammed the accelerator.

I use after market floor mats after the original tears up and they occasionally slide around. The worse situation I've had was having one curl up under the brake pedal, inhibiting its full range of motion. Thankfully I'm a cautious driver and had enough time to pull it back out of the way in time. I also downshifted to get compression braking.

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thereij
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@CaptainKidd: This is interesting. Perhaps the wrong floormat did indeed cause the crash, but to err on the side of safety, this change was applied to all of the floormats on this particular model (or all models involved in the recall).

Some good changes will come to this, it's a shame that the family had to perish to make this happen. The sad fact is that sometimes, things like this just happen. The Titanic had to sink with most of the crew/guests aboard dying to get safety regs changed on ships, the same things happen with air travel and train travel. It sucks so much, but from our mistakes and tragedies, knowledge is gained and applied. There are only so many scenarios a business can foresee and test out.

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floraposte
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@CaptainKidd: I believe it's also been noted that some of the relevant models have an accelerator pedal that's closer to the floor than usual.

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SagarikaLumos
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@floraposte: All of the relevant models do. It seems that Toyota decided a few years ago that they wanted the accelerator pedal to reach closer to the floor than other makes do. It seems to me that the obvious and permanent solution to this recall problem is to cut 1\" from the bottom of the pedal.

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swfc
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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I wonder if this can happen with other cars and similar rubber mats?

Tragic for the family as its was a loaner- they probably didnt know about the 3 second shuttoff for the engine.

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VagrantRadio
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@swfc: Which is why pushbutton ignitions are a baaaad idea.

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AirIntake
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@swfc: I had this happen with a Canadian Tire winter mat in a 1992 Isuzu truck. It was scary, but neutral was my friend. Threw the mat away when I got home.

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SarcasticDwarf
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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Interesting point that the floor mat was not the correct one for that vehicle. Lawsuit against the dealer in 3...2...1...

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Blb3303
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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I listened to the 911 call. I was shaken.

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trujunglist
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Blb3303:

Yeah me too when Consumerist posted the last article on this... It definitely messed me up for a while. So incredibly sad. You can really hear the terror in their voices.

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SybilDisobedience
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Blb3303: Yeah. I got tears in my eyes. What an awful thing to go through. I couldn't believe the caller was as calm as he was - I'd be screaming incoherently. What an avoidable catastrophe.

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cmdrsass
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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I live in a very cold climate. I was driving down the highway in mid-winter with the cruise control set on a very cold day. It froze and I could not disengage it. Scariest two minutes of my life.

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partofme
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@cmdrsass: Cold can cause all kinds of problems. I had the throttle valve stick on one particularly cold day. Pulling up on the pedal doesn't help. I was in a small town, so thankfully it broke loose again less than 20 seconds later. Still, quite frightening.

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subtlefrog
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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This was covered last time, but I'm not clear, still. The electronic shifters don't shift to N in real time. In my car, (Toyota) after this, I did some playing and realized I had to hold the shifter to N for a few seconds if I was in D to get it to shift. I don't know what this car had, but if it was similar, the guy may not have known how to shift to N.

Also, and slightly off topic, I mentioned that my car, if shut down, goes to Park. Others responded that automatics have safeties to protect against dropping the transmission from this - but I've got a Prius, which isn't automatic. It's a continuous variable transmission. I wonder how it would respond. No, I am not going to try it just for giggles. But there are a lot of Prii out there, and it would be interesting to know. Anyone with a knowledge of cars?

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treimel
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@subtlefrog:
Not to point too fine a point on it, but even with the delay it still works the same way: Step 1) move selector to N. Step 2) there is no step 2.


Okay, so there may be a delay, but the method is precisely the same.

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subtlefrog
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@treimel: Yes, but you're missing the point - people with electronic shifters in a panic may try to put it into neutral, and when they tap N, but it doesn't go, freak out, not realizing that they have to hold it there for a few seconds.

So really, the sequence is 1. move selector to N 2. hold it there for a few seconds - which you need not do with a traditional shifter.

Had I not taken the time to experiment with this, I wouldn't have known. Others without this sort of car would, I would guess, also not know.

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hedonia
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@subtlefrog: THANK YOU subtlefrog for bringing this up. I too drive a Prius, and after this story came out I went outside and sat there staring at my gear shifter trying to figure out how I would \"Not panic, just put it in neutral\". I put it in drive, and without taking my foot off the brake, I tried to get it to go into neutral. It look a really long time for the gear to shift!

You have to hold it in place, otherwise it bounces out of the \"N\" position without changing anything. See it here:
[cars.about.com]

You can see from the photo that Neutral is holding it to the left, with pressure, otherwise it will bounce back to the hold position.

If its the same on the Lexus, there is no way that he would realize that while trying to steer and brake and think at 100 mph on a freeway that was ending. Seriously.

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soloudinhere
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@hedonia: I have a 2008 Lexus ES350.

I went out on the highway yesterday, drove 85, and shifted into neutral. The car did not require me to hold it. There is no way to accidentally shift this car into neutral, you must slide the shifter to the right and up to hit neutral, and it locks there. It is actually a fairly similar motion to putting a manual transmission into neutral.

I can only assume that it is similar in the 2009 as there were few design changes.

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spazztastic
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@subtlefrog: A CVT is an automatic transmission. 'Park' works similarly to putting a broomstick in the spokes of a bicycle wheel.

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NJDave
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@spazztastic: Actually, I've put a moving vehicle into Park (for a second, by accident). In my case, anyway, it was a flexible \"broomstick\"; it made a loud ratcheting sound but didn't stop the car nor cause a loss of control. Not good for the transmission, obviously, but given the priorities involved with a stuck accelerator, probably an OK choice.

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jvanbrecht
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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I have the exact same ignition mechanism... I am curious, is it hold the button in for 3 seconds while in motion, or hit the button and wait 3 seconds..

I have always been curious about the pushbutton starts.. I have a hybrid camry (I believe all the hybrids and cars with the smart key option all use the same mechanism). I have always wanted to push the button (at low speed around my block) to see what would happen, but would be worried about destroying something.

That leads me to the next point.. shutting off the vehicle while in motion and in gear.. would that not cause the wheels to potentially lock up, or atleast lose significant traction based on the engines internal resistance....... Either way, at 100mph.. that alone could cause a devastating crash..

Then again, at the same time throwing it into neutral would result in freewheeling, which could also result in a severe crash at those speeds...

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treimel
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@jvanbrecht:


No, shifting into neutral will not result in a crash! Please,please, please don't say things that willl cause people to question that life-saving maneuver. Shutting down the engine WILL NOT lock up the wheels. Nor will the wheels \"lose traction\" because they are not being driven by the engine. As a driver of a manual car, I can assure you that putting in the clutch, or shifting into neutral (i.e., removing engine power from the driven wheels) at ANY speed has NO effect on the traction of the wheels. ZERO.
Similarly, shifting into neutral will disconnect the engine power from the driven wheels. That's it--there's no extra \"free-wheeling\" danger.

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RichasB
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@treimel: I think he was asking what would happen if you turn it off with the clutch & gears engaged? I have a manual transmission and I would never do that, but he has a Hybrid automatic, which should disconnect it Automatically.

The lesson we should all take away from this is to always buy a manual transmission vehicle!!! Now if you excuse me, I have to go hug my 94 Civic and kiss my awesome gas-sipping engine :D

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jvanbrecht
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@RichasB: That is the exact point I was making... I have never owned an automatic before this, I hate them.. but while the economics of owning a hybrid is a great argument point, I have foind it does save me money considering I spend between 2 to 4 hours a day in traffic as a consultant.. and most of that is DC beltway traffic..

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jvanbrecht
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@treimel: For the record, I did not state anything would result in a crash, I sould could, as in possibility..

As for manual issues, I have owned many, in fact my current car is the first car that was automatic, and only because they came no other way. In my previous car, a 2001 VW 1.8t (worst car I ever owned), I had turned off the ignition at a low rate of speed (around 15 to 20mph), and the car came to an extremely abrupt stop.. (kind of like forgetting your in an automatic, and pressing the cars brake pedal thinking its a clutch and jaming it in.. locking up the seat belts and causing the car to stop very short.... and almost releasing the airbag I suspect.. I never trusted my VW...)...

Now doing that at high speed, I can imagine the wheels immediately locking up, hence why I made the comment. Then again, due to the amount forward momentum, it might also just turn the engine over (without restarting since there is no ignition spark).

The entire purpose of my original comment was a question, not a statement..

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treimel
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@jvanbrecht:
I'm sorry I jumped on you, but, no, shifting into neutral will definitely not contribute to a crash.
it is true that in the right circumstances, engine compression braking can cause the wheels to \"brake\" and even lock up if the drivetrain is engaged, but the motor is not running. It' s actually less likely at higher speed, for exactly the reason you mention: the inertia of the wheels, driveshaft, trans, etc. can more easily spin the engine. But I didn't want to muddy the overall message: put the car in neutral, steer and brake as usual. that is all. It was really the notion that there is something potentially dangerous about shifting into neutral that I was reacting to; I'm sorry that I jumped down your throat, it's just that this tragedy was so unneccesary it drives me almost to tears. I honestly didn't know that everybody didn't know that shifting into neutral is both safe and possible at all speeds, and I really want everyone to know.

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BluePlastic
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@treimel: I didn't know about the shifting into neutral at all until I started reading on Consumerist about what happened to this poor man and his family. I hope that if this kind of thing ever did happen to me, I could remember to shift into neutral.

I just read an article not too long ago about the need to kind of train yourself for emergency situations. It said that sometimes people get so terrified when they hear someone breaking into their home that they call 911 and then can't even speak.

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jvanbrecht
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@treimel: No reason to apologize, this is what the purpose of forums are for, lively discussion :)

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floraposte
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@treimel: Yes, a plane's wheels have plenty of traction, and they're not driven by the engine.

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jswilson64
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@jvanbrecht: Shifting into Park at 65 MPH in a 1996 Honda Odyssey won't cause a devastating crash, either. I know, because I had a \"panic\" moment such as this of my own on a freeway. Instead of putting it in Neutral (which is what I was thinking) I shoved the lever all the way to Park.

The only devastation was to the transmission...

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duffman13
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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I don't know why he didn't shift into neutral. My wife probably wouldn't think to either, she just knows drive, park and reverse. Neutral could have saved this guy's life.


I feel like people these days have a deficiency in car knowledge, knowing how power got fron the engine to the wheels should be elementary knowledge. I have had a stuck pedal before due to flip-flop operator error, and pooping the car from gear into neutral is exactly what I did, since I knew cutting the mechanical link between the engine and the wheels would let me brake and remove my flip-flop.


What exactly is the problem with the floor mats? My last 4 cars have all had a hook/slot in them to prevent them from moving around. Does toyota not do this? because nissan, acura, honda and audi all certainly do.

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NJDave
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@duffman13: Toyota definitely hooks the mat to the carpet (the mat in my Matrix has two hooks, which I assume is typical). The problem, I guess, is that in some situations the hooks can, and have, come loose. (In this case, though, the mat was just lying loose on the floor.)

@duffman13: The eleven-year old in me had to point out that you said \"pooping.\" ;)

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econobiker
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@duffman13: See my other comment above about police people who are used to \"control\" in situations...

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segfault
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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I'm guessing #5 dealt with the driver not shifting into neutral, or the catastrophic failure of the fuel system (which I presume caused the fire). I'm curious as to why it was blacked out.

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DefineStatutory
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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At some point, as the front seat passenger, wouldn't you reach over and attempt to free the pedal? I know if I were in the passenger seat, and the driver said the gas was stuck down, I'd be down there yanking on the pedal to at least attempt to free it.


(not placing blame, this story has just always seemed really weird to me all the way around)

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sburnap42
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@DefineStatutory: Yeah, when my car is hurtling down the road at 130 mph, I really want to be taking my eyes off the road to reach down to the gas peddle.

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treimel
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@sburnap42:
hence, \"passenger\" also, the 911 call took 44 seconds. Let's put it this way--I wouldn't have died as a pasenger in those circumstances.

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treimel
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@DefineStatutory:


I'd have reached over and put it in neutral, though.

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Nidoking
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@DefineStatutory: That would probably require quite a reach. The driver's legs and the gearshift would probably get in the way. Not to mention that, when the crash does occur, you probably want to be in your seat, with the seatbelt fastened, where the airbag will soften the impact, rather than lying across the driver's knees with the seatbelt crossing your stomach.

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RichasB
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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Someone has to say, so it might as well be me...

He should have bought a manual transmission car. A real car.
And yeah, that Push-To-Start crap was always a horrible idea (What? You're too lazy to turn a friggin' key? Get outta here!). Hell, whenever I'm rolling up to red light, I even turn off my engine and shift in to neutral to save gas. No point in having it on if I'm going to stop and idle anyways (and NO, turning it off and then back on does NOT waste more gas).

And one more thing, you think a state trooper would have had the idea to put it into neutral naturally? I thought he was trained to handle well under emergencies? Maybe his vehicle model doesn't allow to shift to N after a certain speed or not at all? I'm really confused about that. I hope he didn't just slam his ABS brakes and pray to an invisible man!

My 1994 Civic, though it may be obsolete in every way, I feel is superior to these flashy cars in several aspects. For one thing, my old-as-dirt car is getting ludicrously good MPG ratios with basic parts than these new Lexuses & Acuras.

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carsinamerica
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@RichasB:

Number one, I own a stick-shift car, too, and I like it. However, I freely admit that automatics and DSG-style gearboxes are pretty amazing these days, and sometimes superior to manuals. However, as others have noted, this car was a RENTAL. Even if it weren't, you can buy a Lexus ES with a standard transmission anyway.

Number two, you are way off-base on the theory behind push-button starters. As much as anything, they are a safety feature. No key means one less protrusion in the cabin that can injure the driver in a collision.

I would say that this incident does show the advantage of manual transmissions under certain circumstances. A stick car would have accepted a shift to neutral instantly, without a fuss. It would also have accepted a downshift (the Lexus manumatic tranny would not allow a downshift in those circumstances with WOT). Downshifting would have slowed the car abruptly, at the price of over-revving the engine and causing damage to the transmission. The manual offers more positive control over the drive, which can be handy in emergencies. That said, the driver still has to have the presence of mind, in a panic situation, to act appropriately, which is easier said than done.

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evilpete
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@RichasB: These days only around 5% of new cars are sold with manual transmissions

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SadSam
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@evilpete:


You almost can't get manual tranny cars anymore, manuals are only seem to be offered in very high end high performance cars and very loan end.

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G.O.B.: Come on!
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@SadSam: True. Whenever you see the base price for a cheap car, i.e.: Civic, Corolla...it's for the manual version of the car.

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Crabby Cakes
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@RichasB: I'm sure this post is about to lose more than a few characters, but I'll say this: RTFA. He didn't BUY this car, it was a loaner car.

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treimel
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Crabby Cakes:
Not only that, but the immediate fix is basically the same--shifting into N in an authomatic is just as effective as putting in the clutch. And, yeah, I drive a manual.

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nsv
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@RichasB: Someone has to say it, and it'll probably be everybody.

Your first point was that he should have bought a \"real\" car. Your first point is dead wrong. Your smug superiority because you drive a car with a manual transmission is irrelevant. This was a loaner car, given to the family to use while their car was in the shop. If you had even a passing familiarity with the facts in this incident you would have known that. This fact is mentioned in the report above and in the comments.

Given your ignorance on the topic, I'm not even going to bother to address the rest of your post.

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m92348
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@nsv: \"This was a loaner car, given to the family to use while their car was in the shop.\"

You can be sure that the dealer would have been happy to give him something other than a gimmicky, overpowered, 270hp luxury sedan if he had asked.

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nsv
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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To anyone who has listened to the 911 call (I won't do it, thanks,) how many seconds would you estimate the conversation took?

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Crabby Cakes
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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@nsv: The 911 call is 44 seconds, I believe.

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nsv
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Crabby Cakes: Thanks. So in 44 seconds the dispatcher had to say the standard greeting, the brother-in-law gave the location and the problem, and the dispatcher had to understand the severity of the problem and suggest turning off the engine.

Then the brother-in-law had to understand the solution, relay it to the driver, and the driver had to understand it, figure out where the button is on a loaner car, and press and hold the button for three seconds.

Some of those 44 seconds were spent impacting the Explorer and then in the other impacts that followed.

That's not a whole lot of time.

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AirIntake
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@nsv: 44 seconds is a hell of a lot of time to put a car in neutral. When this happened to me when I was 16 it took me about 3 seconds. This guy was a 19 year veteran highway patrol cop, so I expect him know at least as much about vehicles as I did when I was 16.

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hedonia
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@AirIntake: You drove a push-button start vehicle with a weird shifter way back when you were 16? Amazing! Or, this was a car that he (and most people) are actually very unfamiliar with, and its not immediately obvious at 100 mph how to get it to go into neutral or turn off.

If you don't believe me, go down to the Toyota/Lexus dealer near you and test drive one so you can try the shifter. I bet you that the first 4 times you try to get it in neutral you won't understand why it isn't changing.

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CaffiendCA
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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Same thing happened to me, well without the burning to death or the pedal stuck to the floormat. But I picked up the car from the dealer, and they screwed up the accelerator cable, and it stuck when first accelerating. I killed the engine with the key, but not before nearly hitting the car in front of me. Thankfully I was able to prevent an accident, and the shop fixed it. But I didn't read them the riot act, like I should have.

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G.O.B.: Come on!
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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As it was a loaner car, the dealer probably put in the all-weather mats because he doesn't want the loaner to get filthy. People may abuse a loaner car just like people don't much care about taking care of a rental. That explains why the incorrect mats would have been there.

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Muthafodder
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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[maps.google.com]

I'm guessing this is where it happened at.

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Crabby Cakes
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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I see a lot of \"blame the victim\" here and I find it really perplexing. This man was in a panic situation; from a Human Factors/Psychological perspective, all normal logical response is thrown out the window. The mix of increased heart-rate and adrenaline often focuses you brain on one thing and filters out other options. In this case, it's not unreasonable that in the driver's mind, the solution to \"car going at high rate of speed\" was \"braking.\" Here's another example: Say you're in a burning house and you're on the 2nd floor. Under normal circumstances, you know that jumping out the window is not a good idea. Faced with the panic of a burning house, your brain tells you to \"get out! NOW!\" and so you make the choice to jump. Were there other means of escape you could have explored? Maybe, but forcing your brain to sort through that takes time- and time is usually something you do not have.
It's extremely difficult to gauge how people will react in panic situations, because it defies logic to an outside, logical observer. To say, \"this guy should have known to throw the car in neutral!\" is really over-simplifying a complex psychological situation.

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m92348
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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I don't view the driver as a victim at all.

The driver (not the dealer or manufacturer) is responsible for making sure that his vehicle is in drivable condition, including that there are no obstructions in the footwell.

It's the driver's responsibility that he understands his vehicle; he chose a high-tech brand with gimmicky controls (even on a loaner, it's his choice), so if he can't find neutral, or shift down to first gear, or turn off the ignition, it's his fault.

The driver is also responsible for not panicking when there is a malfunction; every car can malfunction for many reasons, and if you're prone to panic and put other people at risk as a consequence, don't get behind the wheel.

He also chose a 270hp V6 vehicle with one of the fastest accelerations in its class. A normal vehicle couldn't crash like that if you tried. And then there is the question of how, during normal, responsible driving, the accelerator could possibly even get stuck at full throttle.

We're lucky he killed only himself and his family; he could have killed a lot of innocent bystanders.

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AirIntake
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Crabby Cakes: 1) He's a 19year veteran cop, he's trained to deal with stress and panic situations 2) He's a highway patrol cop, so his entire job is to drive around all day, so I'd assume he's fairly familiar with cars after 19 years 3) If the person trapped in the house was a firefighter, I would expect him to consider other options rather than jumping first 4) I've had this happen to me when I was 16 (winter floor mats), and I figured out to put the vehicle in neutral. The mats definitely contributed to the crash, but the driver ultimately caused it.

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floraposte
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@AirIntake: And I'm sure they're sorry you weren't in the car. But you're way, way, way overstating the case of what information--presuming he had it, and could apply it to a car he didn't know--will get you in a situation you're not trained for. And this isn't a situation that the police or anybody else train for.

@sean98125:
Of course it's a thinking response. That's the only way you can cause a response from something you've never physically done before.

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m92348
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@floraposte:

\"apply it to a car he didn't know\"

It's your responsibility to know the car you're driving before getting on the road. Not knowing how to put your car in neutral is negligent.

\"And this isn't a situation that the police or anybody else train for.\"

A stuck accelerator is a standard risk; it can happen for many reasons (snapped cable, floor mat, etc.). Anybody should know what to do in that situation, and anybody who thinks seriously about driving risks thinks about that scenario automatically. It's actually one of the few serious mechanical failures that's easy to deal with.

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AirIntake
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@floraposte: The fact that he didn't know the car is meaningless, as all cars can be put into neutral. This situation is not very different from a tire blowout. If you have a tire blowout, and instead of staying calm and bringing your car to a controlled stop you decide to panic and overcorrect while steering, you will roll the car. Now should the rollover be blamed on the tire or driver error?

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sean98125
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Crabby Cakes: But it shouldn't even have to be a thinking response, especially for a Highway Patrolman.

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econobiker
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Crabby Cakes: And add in the \"I am always in control\" law enforcement factor too and you have the perfect storm especially since he was off-duty with his family.

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treimel
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Crabby Cakes:


You are absolutely right about panic--by defintiioon, you can't think straight. But why, oh why didn't the 911 operator say to do it, though? That makes no sense to me.

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VA_White
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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I would have known to shift to neutral but I think that's because I learned to drive on a stick shift where you use neutral on a regular basis. They also covered that in my driver's ed class in high school.

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floraposte
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@VA_White: He might have known it too. As pointed out upthread where people were comparing it to the problems in dialing \"911,\" we often fail at putting into action under stress information we've received at other times.

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Covertghost
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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This happened to me before, floor mat caused my gas pedal to get stuck, in a frenzy I was ripping at the floor mat with my feet, and finally got it loose, then stomped my foot into the gas pedal to get it to loosen(I was going 120 at this point) and finally breathed a sigh of relief as I was able to brake again.


I threw away those floor mats, this happened about 5 years ago.

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Bahnburner
November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
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Wrong floor mat.
It just was a fluke.
For there to be four occupants in that car, one of them being a law enforcement officer and another with enough time to make a call lasting 44 seconds and none of them possessing the wherewithall to pull or engage the parking brake (locking the undriven wheels...no car's gonna go or stay at 100+ with the rear wheels locked up.) or shift the vehicle into reverse, park, neutral or low gear. They were simply caught out. I'm sorry for their families.

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yevarechecha
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Bahnburner: We have two automatics and the parking brakes on both of them are pure crap. I have driven all over town on one of them with the parking brake engaged and only realized it after the fact because it made absolutely no difference in how the car operated. So I just never set that brake, because it does nothing. At 100mph it would probably just get destroyed. The only way to stop the car would be to kill the engine or shift out of drive.

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floraposte
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@Bahnburner: You've clearly dealt with very different emergency brakes than I have. I've never known a car that couldn't move with them on, let alone a car going at 100 mph that would be stopped by their action.

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katia802
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Years ago I drove a school bus. This happened to me, fortunately after I'd dropped of my kids and was on the way back to the garage. Very scary, eventually, after really screwing up the tranny trying to drop into second and first gears, I tried neutral. Got it to shut off, but the mechanics who picked up the bus almost wrecked it because they started it and tried putting it into gear!!! It's extremely frightening, and I can see how they would be panicking and unable to think of the best way to deal with the situation.

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tsmvengy
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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I actually remember that our driver's ed instructor told us to put your car in neutral if this ever happens.

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evartse
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Rgrdng th qstn f hw bst t stp sch cr, Cnsmr Rprts dd tst nd fnd tht shftng t ntrl lwys wrkd, nd s lwys sfst: [bt.ly] t's wrth pttng nt prctc: [bt.ly]

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evilpete
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Was the document distributed as a PDF?

If so and #5 was blocked out using Acrobat you can sometime de-censor a document. Many time the censored text is blacked out by placing a opaque object over the text thus leaving the text intact on a lower layer.

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Buckus
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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I'm suprised no one has mentioned that, to save a few bucks, the gas pedal only pivots at the firewall; most cars have a double-pivot: one at the firewall and then the pedal itself is mounted on a pivot which allows the pedal to rotate. If the car had been equipped with this type of pedal, I'd venture a guess that the floormat could have been removed with minimal damage to property or life.

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m92348
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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I'm sorry, but this sounds like driver error to me. Cars can get stuck accelerating for many reasons. I wouldn't fiddle with the ignition key; turning that while driving can have all sorts of bad consequences. The right thing to do is to switch to neutral and step on the brakes. Even better, drive manual, take your foot off the clutch, and brake.

And you just have to be aware that machines fail and can kill you. Purely mechanical cars can fail as well and kill you. (I still feel more comfortable, however, with stick shift and no cruise control than these hyper-automated cars).

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Ptath
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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What's missing here is a timeline. 3 seconds careening out of control and into traffic is a heck of a long time to have one hand off the wheel of an unfamiliar car.

I would suspect the driver may have been concerned about not hitting anything, specially pedestrians, which probably demanded a lot of attention. His training ould call to that.

If the whole thing happened in a short time span - say 15-30 seconds - you only have a few moments to try what comes to mind:

It wont's stop!! OK, press the pedal again a couple of times to see if it gets unstuck - No? Darn, I am still accelerating! - OK, hold the brake - until they give - hey watch that car!- BAM! - Ouch, that hurt! You guys OK? - Now, adding the handbrake.. No go? OK Turn of the key - What the hell, no key? Oh yeah, I need to... now lets press that button - where is that button? - and hold it for ... BANG.

That could happen pretty much in the same time it took you to read it.

At some point there is just nothing you can do: Once the car war airborne, that was pretty much endgame.

In most road accidents everything goes from Ok to disaster in 3-5 seconds at most, usually far less. If you were ever in one, you know what I mean. If not, trust me and count yourself lucky.

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ShirtMac
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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For all of those that have questioned why the 911 operator didn't tell them to shift to neutral; it's called agency liability. We have a saying in the emergency communications business...CYA..Cover Your Agency. Any advice or suggestions to a caller can lead to the municipality AND the dispatcher being on the receiving end of a lawsuit. As obvious as it is...when a house is on fire people will ask \"Should I get everyone out of the house?\" All we can tell them is I can't advise you on that...it's a decision you will have to make. Sounds bad and it is very frustrating but if someone gets injured or killed on the way out...their first words are that \"the 911 operator told me to...\" Then comes the lawyers. Sorry...but I can't afford to be sued!

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Eticus
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Who thought it was a good idea to stop using keys in ignitions?

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TessTalks
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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When can we read the Toyota in-house memo that discusses the known flaw, then makes the decision to do nothing? Or, rather, do nothing until these poor souls were unnecessarily cooked beyond recognition.

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soloudinhere
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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@TessTalks: It would have had zero impact on this car in question because this car in question had already had the factory floor mats removed and replaced with ones for a car with a much larger footwell.

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physics2010
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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[www.safetyresearch.net] in case anyone else wants to work on it.

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suburbancowboy
November 13, 2009 4:34 PM
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Since everyone else is throwing in their hypothetical \"I Would've done this\" in this awful situation, I would've just pulled on the steering wheel and jumped the car Dukes of Hazzard style.

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