var json_comments = new Array("
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temporaryerror
September 21, 2009 7:13 PM
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Hehe. Personal Massagers... (que 5th grade giggles)

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6 replies
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Trai_Dep
September 22, 2009 7:04 AM
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@temporaryerror: Quieter than the diesel models, but I'm unsure if they have the same staying power.

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jessedybka
September 22, 2009 3:41 AM
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@digitalgimpus: I have a whole fleet of Eneloops for my high-drain stuff where buying alkalines is both more expensive and NiMH's work better. They're the only rechargeable batteries I'll pay for.

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jessedybka
September 22, 2009 4:28 AM
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@jessedybka: Wow, this shouldn't be here, but it's funny anyway.

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shepd
September 21, 2009 7:20 PM
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NiCd or better yet LSD NiMh are still good for the low drain devices. :) Otherwise, a good article.

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techphets
September 21, 2009 7:27 PM
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I would like to see some actual data showing that alkalines are better in the cases mentioned.

Although I change rechargeables in remote controls more often than I would alkalines I believe the lifespan of these batteries far outweighs that of alkalines.

Couple that with the fact that I have rechargeables ready to be used when a remote battery is depleted. If I was to use alkalines then I would need to keep a stock of alklaline batteries ready to use too (I actually do have quite a few from buying products with 'batteries included.'). My remote batteries are changed so infrequently that I do not even think about using the alkalines in them.

In keeping with the spirit of the article, let us also consider the case of a personal massager which needs batteries in an emergency. If the remote controls are emptied one will find rechargeables! Of course, now some are more depleted than others but this is where a professional charger will pick up the slack.

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seishino
September 22, 2009 1:23 PM
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@techphets: I replace the alkalines in my TV remotes every few years. One of them even takes button batteries, and in two years I haven't had to change those. My NIMHes would have needed to be replaced many, many times by now due to self-drain.


On the other hand, my Wii controllers were going through a set of AA's each week. Those are definitely on NiMH, as are some of the light sets that I use on a regular basis, my shaver, digicam, and portable speakers.


If you don't need to change the battery very frequently, it may be that the times that you DO need to change it is more related to self-drain than actual usage. That energy is basically just being wasted.

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Powerlurker
September 21, 2009 9:23 PM
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@techphets:

You should use alkalines in your remote specifically because you change them so infrequently. Rechargeables are a good deal more expensive than alkaline or carbon-zinc batteries. If you put rechargables in a very low drain device like a remote control, you're putting expensive batteries in a device that rarely needs to be charged, or is more likely to run dry from the batteries auto-discharging. A single set of alkalines may very well last longer than the useful life of the device the remote they are in is meant to control. If that's the case, you'd be better off buying fewer rechargables and using the ones you have in devices that will need to be recharged regularly while using alkaline or carbon-zinc batteries in your devices that don't need their batteries regularly changed.

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mac-phisto
September 21, 2009 8:55 PM
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@techphets: there are a few things you have to consider here:
1) cost - alkalines win here hands down. rechargeables are typically 2-4x the cost of alkalines.
2) life cycle - rechargeables definitely last longer, but their life cycle between charges is shorter & as they reach the end of their lifespan, they don't last as long between charges, so which way you decide to go depends largely on how often you want to be reprogramming your universal remote.
3) power curve - this is where alkalines win on low-drain devices. if you draw a graph with x=time & y=voltage, alkaline voltage decreases nominally over time whereas rechargeables generally remain flat & then drop off to nothing when they die. why is this important? b/c if your remote only needs 1.2v to operate, but it has 2 AA batteries pushing 3.3v when new, they'll continue to power the remote until the batteries' voltage drops below 1.2v. the rechargeables will push full voltage for a longer time, but then drop below the needed voltage very quickly. see graph (sorry about the poor quality - just made it in paint w/ a trackball mouse):

4) passive drain - rechargeables generally don't hold their charge well (nicd do, but nimh & lion generally lose their charge in a passive state within a month). this means that even when you're not using the device, you still may need to recharge the cells. conversely, alkalines actually \"recharge\" slightly when passive (which is why the \"battery flip maneuver\" sometimes gets a few more clicks out of your remote.

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cerbie
September 22, 2009 5:00 PM
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@mac-phisto: 4) NIMH can keep most of their capacity for a year or more, if you get LSD ones. Also, LIon have no meaningful self-discharge. You can pick up and use one after months, provided there has been no load on it.

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seishino
September 22, 2009 1:36 PM
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@mac-phisto:

5) power pairing - rechargeables need to be paired with other rechargables of similar power abilities. As they age, the amount of power each battery holds will change. A good charger will measure the amount of energy each battery holds (as an extra step), but this takes many extra hours. If you don't properly pair batteries, at the end of a use cycle you get a negative flow situation. This is when one battery is completely drained, but the other still has a charge and is forcing the power through the drained one. This will cause internal gas venting, and will quickly kill your batteries.


I would alter your power curve in the above diagram, though. NiMH's power curve is a feature, not a bug. They tend to hang on to 1.2v much longer than alkalines (alkalines start at 1.5, BTW), which is one reason why they're better for lights and camera flashes. This does confuse battery indicators, which usually use output voltage to estimate capacity. But it is much better for most electronics, and provides a more usable, consistent output. Here's a better graph.


[www.stefanv.com]


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mac-phisto
September 22, 2009 4:58 PM
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@seishino: excellent note about pairing. to help with this, i always use white-out to mark battery pairs on my rechargeables to make sure they are going thru the same charge cycles.

i know alkalines are 1.5, but i was figuring on 2 batteries for a remote (hence the 3.0v), plus the fact that fully charged alkalines typically exhibit voltages above 1.5 (hence the 3.3 reference). i forgot that nimh's were 1.2 & not 1.5 though, so my graph is totally off as well as being poorly rendered.

the graph you supplied is much better, though i was under the impression that the drop-off for alkalines was much less dramatic towards the end of the life cycle, which is why they are considered better in low-draw environments. the power curve you present seems to indicate that nimh are better even in low-draw environments, which is counter to what i've been taught. this explanation seems to agree with you (pdf) --> [www.eznec.com]

regardless, in high-draw environments, the rechargeable is a win hands-down.

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EarlNowak
September 21, 2009 8:44 PM
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@Outrun1986: Look for sales. You can get a 40 pack of Radio Shack brand Alkaline AAs for $11 on sale.

I buy one every five years or so. At that price, I really can't think of an advantage to getting rechargable AAs, especially considering all my high-drain devices (cell phone, laptop, ipod, digital camera) all have built-in high power lithium ion batteries.

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lilyHaze
September 21, 2009 7:23 PM
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I just plain old forget about them. I buy the really cheap dollar-store alkalines or brand name ones on sale. (I don't buy enough to justify purchase at Costco which is a really good source for alkaline batteries.) But basically it's the wall clock, alarm clock, and remote controls. They definitely last a few months, sometimes years (for remote controls).

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LeChiffre
September 22, 2009 3:46 PM
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@lilyHaze: Yeah and I use the dollar store akaline's for smoke d's but I use my Costco rechargeable for my xbox and toothbrush.

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bornonbord
September 21, 2009 9:18 PM
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@lilyHaze: CostCo is key for vibrators.

Those suck juice harder than a... well, that just writes itself.

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esc27
September 21, 2009 8:06 PM
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@lilyHaze: My battery only (no radio) alarm clock can go well over a year on only one set of alkaline batteries. My computer mouse lasts ~ 6 months on alkaline batteries where the previous (AA rechargeable) would only last about 2 weeks per charge.

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downwithmonstercable
September 21, 2009 8:21 PM
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@esc27: That's what I hate - rechargable last a quarter of the time of alkalines (if that) I'm going on 6 months in my wireless mouse with an alkaline, wheras the rechargable I was using last maybe a month. And when you need to have something done NOW, a dying battery and waiting for it to charge is the last thing I wanna deal with...

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JennQPublic
September 21, 2009 8:41 PM
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@downwithmonstercable: I have a charger plugged in at all times with a pair of AAs and a pair of AAAs charged up. But I use them in my Xbox controller and gaming headset, and I have to switch them out frequently.

But it still beats buying new batteries all the time. Even if alkalines last four times as long, there's still a lot of waste involved (both money and trash).

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XTC46
September 21, 2009 8:34 PM
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@downwithmonstercable: as opposed to the battery dying and not having the option to recharge?

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techphets
September 21, 2009 7:29 PM
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@lilyHaze: The only remote control I find myself replacing my rechargeable batteries in on a frequent basis is the Logitech Harmony universal but that can be expected- it has an LCD with a backlight. Even in there they last for months.

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YamiNoSenshi
September 21, 2009 7:25 PM
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So many wireless controllers. So many rechargeables.

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h3llc4t, breaker of office dress codes
September 22, 2009 1:02 PM
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@YamiNoSenshi: We sprung for the rechargeable packs and base for the 360. They seem to hold a charge forever.

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AirIntake
September 21, 2009 7:29 PM
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The new hybrid NiMH's are wonderful. They hold a charge for months, have a higher capacity than Alkalines (especially at high current draw) and can be charged in 15 minutes. I use hybrid NiMH's for everything except low drain devices as mentioned above.

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downwithmonstercable
September 21, 2009 8:22 PM
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@AirIntake: Are NiMH's the type that have horrible memory effects? Or is that NiCD?

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SScorpio
September 21, 2009 8:35 PM
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@downwithmonstercable:

NiMH's don't have memory effects, original rechargeables were NiCD but I'm not sure if they still suffer from memory issues.

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Kogenta
September 21, 2009 8:31 PM
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@downwithmonstercable: You're thinking of the old NiCd batteries. NiMHs supposedly don't have that problem.

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Outrun1986
September 21, 2009 7:29 PM
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Ok, the first step is to understand the different kinds of batteries and their uses. If you want to save money, don't be the guy who buys a 4-pack of $12 energizer lithiums for his basic remote control. You also don't want to be the guy who puts rechargeables in his smoke detector.. Both are bad ideas.

Most devices these days include proprietary batteries of some sort, so you may find yourself not making much of a decision.

If you find yourself running out of AA batteries frequently or your devices are chewing up AA batteries frequently, its probably best to purchase rechargeables. Use them for things like your digital camera or anything that requires large bursts of power.

Regular alkalines are probably your best bet if your going that route, avoid the ones that state \"our battery provides more power!\" Yes they probably will last longer, but they also cost more. For the same price of one of these packs you could get 2 packs of regular alkalines and probably get more power out of the 2 packs. The cost-benefits of these kinds of batteries don't usually add up.

If your buying alkalines you also might want to consider a bulk buy, rather than buying 4-packs in the store which is the most expensive option. Alkalines will be a lot cheaper in bulk.

I don't know where this guy is buying his batteries but the cost of rechargables is getting dangerously close to a pack of regular alkalines. Its like $3-5 for a 4 pack of regular alkalines while a 4 pack of rechargables is $6-7. If you already have a charger that is.

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Powerlurker
September 21, 2009 9:26 PM
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@Outrun1986:

For remotes and smoke detectors, I use the even cheaper carbon-zinc batteries. $1 for 2 9-volt or 4 AA batteries is great for a device that goes through batteries so slowly, leaving my NiMH batteries for the devices that actually need them.

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Outrun1986
September 21, 2009 11:00 PM
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@Powerlurker: Yeah that is fine for remotes, especially because your basic remote will barely go through those.

Sam's club has bulk packs of rechargeable batteries but they are energizer brand. I have had bad experiences with energizer brand rechargables so I can't recommend them. I can recommend using pretty much any other brand even if its generic. Of course there are many places to buy bulk packs of rechargeable batteries online.

Walmart sells a 4 pack of AA rechargeable batteries for something like $6-7 a pack here in the store. The most I have seen in a store is 9.99 for energizer or duracell brand. If you go to big lots or another discount store you can sometimes find them for $5.50 a pack.

I miss when walmart was selling a 4 pack of 1000mah AAA rechargeables for 4.99, that was a great deal for sure, now they sell them for more than that but there was a time when the price was 4.99.

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Brunette Bookworm
September 21, 2009 9:04 PM
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@Outrun1986: That's what I did. I was always having to buy AA batteries since most of my remotes take them, so I bought some rechargable ones.

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Ratty
September 21, 2009 7:58 PM
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@Outrun1986: Really? my 4-packs of rechargeables are usually $12+.

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Oddfool
September 21, 2009 8:18 PM
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@Ratty: Depends on brand of batteries and for the recyclable ones, whether they are pre-charged or not. Wal-mart has 4-pack of AA Energizer batteries for about $5.99 (walmart.com) and a 4-pack of recyclables for $9.88(Not Energizer brand. walmart.com).

Of course, buying in bulk (Costco) is usually much better. Does anyone know if you can get recyclables in a multipack?

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techphets
September 21, 2009 7:31 PM
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I have found that using alkalines in my thermostat is advantageous but that is because the NiMh batteries produce a slightly lower voltage and the thermostat will not function properly with them.

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aquafusion
September 21, 2009 10:04 PM
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@techphets:

That why there a switch for thermostats that can manage it. My thermostats (i have two A/C central in my house)have a switch for alkalines and NiMh. If you have a newer thermostats, you should have a switch function for it

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louiedog
September 21, 2009 7:35 PM
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I find the newer rechargeables that are usually listed as either hybrid of pre-charged do a fine job in the lower drain devices. They're nimh batteries, but with longevity closer to alkaline, hence the hybrid title. They supposedly carry something like 80% of their original charge if left for a year and I find they work great in remotes and things. They aren't much more expensive than regular nimh rechargeables, but work much better. And if you've got a bunch of them, you can put them in any device (camera, remote, etc.) and not worry if they've been sitting for 2 months or if they'll crap out in 5. I find it odd the article writer didn't mention them.

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louiedog
September 21, 2009 7:39 PM
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@louiedog: ugh, so many typos. \"hybrid OR pre-charged\"

Examples include Rayovac's Hybrid batteries and Sanyo's Eneloop line.

I also suggest getting a good battery charge like the author mentions. I had a really crappy charger that came with 12 some crappy batteries. I went out and splurged on a good charger and not only does it work much better, and charges batteries individually instead of just in pairs (which is great for things like clocks, toothbrushes, etc), but it made my 12 crappy batteries usable again. I now get a few hours out of them in my xbox controllers, instead of 20 minutes.

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Skeetz
September 21, 2009 7:46 PM
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How much juice does the avarage remote for a TV use? Couldn't they solve the battery problem as simply as the avarage calculator has done? Solar powered remote where art thou?

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downwithmonstercable
September 21, 2009 8:24 PM
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@Skeetz: As awesome as it is for being solar power, that thing is hideous. Not that I'm a remote fashionista or anything. But man. I think Sony could've done a little better on the design.

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axiomatic
September 21, 2009 7:48 PM
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If any of you have ever bought batteries abroad in Asia or Europe you will all realize that batteries in the US patently stink.

Now I realize that the US has more stringent rules on chemicals that can be used in US batteries for waste disposal reasons but damn, the disparity in battery quality is rather large between the US and other nations.

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Powerlurker
September 21, 2009 9:27 PM
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@axiomatic:

Every time Consumer Reports does a battery test it always comes out that they're pretty much all the same.

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pecan 3.14159265
September 21, 2009 7:52 PM
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Right now we're using regular alkaline batteries because they haven't died in about a year, so we're going to keep using them. But we really don't stock regular alkalines, so we tend to put rechargables in the remotes because if the batteries die, instead of scrambling to find working batteries, we can just recharge the ones from the remote.

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Quake 'n' Shake
September 21, 2009 8:54 PM
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@pecan 3.14159265: But while the batteries are being recharged, the remote is out of service. Thus, I'm forced to watch either Noggin or Jon & Kate until the batteries are charged, and I can change the station. No.Thank.You

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Ratty
September 21, 2009 8:02 PM
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You could always put the alkalines in the personal massager, and then move the batteries to the remote/clock/whatever when they're still charged but not powerful enough for the massager. Just don't tell the guests who manhandle the remotes.


(and yeah, rechargeables for that kind of device is really a way better investment)


I'd also like to say there are some amazingly strong Lithium ion batteries out there. My EOS 40D's battery honestly got 800+ shots (some with external flash, others with no flash) before I needed to charge it, and even then it wasn't dead, just under half.

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Hoss
September 21, 2009 8:25 PM
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@Ratty: You jumped from massagers to external flash. Or do massagers now include flash? Ah, never mind...

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Ratty
September 21, 2009 9:33 PM
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@Hoss: Well, my external flash uses rechargeable 2800 mAh NiMH batteries, but I was mostly talking about my camera's battery. And massagers.

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parad0x360
September 21, 2009 8:09 PM
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This article is common sense. Of course you will use normal batteries in a device that drains slowly. Dont people only buy rechargeables in devices they are constantly replacing batteries in...?

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FDCPAGuy
September 21, 2009 8:16 PM
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I am digging the LSD Duracell's (they call them pre-charged) along with my Eneloops! Best of both worlds as they self-discharge at a much slower rate than standard NiMH batteries and work well in remotes and such.

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shepd
September 22, 2009 2:49 PM
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@FDCPAGuy:

The best kept secret about Duracells are that the white-top \"Made In Japan\" ones are actually rebadged Eneloops.

I bought myself a bunch when they went on sale for $7 a 4-pack. Avoided all the black-top Made in China ones. :^)

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digitalgimpus
September 21, 2009 8:27 PM
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Eneloops!

Any of the \"pre-charged\" NiMH are a totally different class.

They hold their charge much longer making them better for low draw devices. About 85% after 6 months. Just check amazon for the glowing results.

The trick is to use a good charger that lets you slow charge the batteries, rather than the cheap ones the manufacturers bundle with batteries. There's a reason they give them away for free... those fast chargers fry the cells and kill your batteries quick (so you buy new ones).

This blog was accurate a few years ago, but today isn't quite accurate.

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FLConsumer
September 22, 2009 7:47 AM
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@digitalgimpus: I fully agree. I guess the article author's never heard of low-discharge rechargeables. They work fine in just about every application now. I use them in all of my remotes, clocks, etc. So far no real downsides I've found.

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admiral_stabbin
September 21, 2009 8:43 PM
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The wireless keyboard and mouse fans should stick to alkaline.

NiMHs just don't hold their charge long enough to be worth a darn for the purpose. For example, I replace my office keyboard and mouse at work every few months (4-6)...versus ever two weeks with NiMHs.

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thomas_callahan
September 22, 2009 1:27 PM
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@admiral_stabbin:
But so what if you're replacing them every 2 weeks? It takes all of 5 seconds to swap them (I have a spare set I keep in the charger under my desk). I do that with my wireless mouse at work, I get more like 4 weeks but I've been using the same 4 cheap-o no-name-brand rechargeable NiMH batteries for over 5 years now with no sign of any less performance.

I paid something like $8 for 4 batteries, how much would I have spent on alkalines in that time, even if they did last 4-6 months? Back-of-the-envelope calculation says I would have paid roughly the same so far (assuming I bought alkalines in bulk and they held their charge) but I don't anticipate buying another set of rechargeables anytime soon so from here on out it's all savings.

There are different levels of capacity for NiMH batteries too -- I have some at home that are rated 1600mAh, some that are 1800, some that are 2000, and I've seen some rated 2500mAh -- I use the lower ones in remotes, etc. and the higher ones in cameras, it makes a big difference.

Not to mention the environmental issues... haven't thrown away any batteries with the rechargeables compared to a minimum of 20 alkalines I would have thrown out in the same time.

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Battlehork
September 22, 2009 1:02 PM
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@admiral_stabbin: I've been using hybrid NiMHs (specifically Sanyo Eneloop brand) in my wireless keyboard and mouse. They last at least a couple months.

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Zerkaboid
September 21, 2009 8:52 PM
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I use rechargeable for my camera, Wii remotes, and PS3 remote (bluetooth) and I feel I've saved money. Bought them about 3 years ago and don't feel there has been a huge drop in the quality of charge (is that the right way to say it? You know what I mean)

Though I guess the Wii remotes have just sat around unused for months and will do so until a new Mario game comes out. Maybe they haven't held the charge as well.

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Brunette Bookworm
September 21, 2009 9:05 PM
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@Zerkaboid: That PS3 bluetooth DVD remote seems to suck the batteries. That's the main reason I bought a pack of rechargable AAs.

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ARPRINCE
September 21, 2009 10:36 PM
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One word.....ENELOOP!

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enine
September 21, 2009 11:01 PM
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More outdated advice. In the last 5 years there has been a breakthrough in MiMH technology, the low self discharge (some mistakenly call them hybrid because that is rayovac's marketing name and they are common at walmart).
These batteries don't discharge while sitting even in low drain devices. Sanyo Eneloop are the best, I've been using them since early 2006. I do still get a cheap pack of bulk alkalines for around the house things though because my wife will swap one out and throw the old one away, after loosing a couple rechargeables I stopped using them in anything household.

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Razor512
September 22, 2009 2:05 AM
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for the price of most alkaline batteries that are name brand, you can use that same money to get a rechargeable battery, in some cases there even cheaper.

I got a pack of 4 AA 2700 mAh rechargeable nimh sanyo batteries for $5 brand new from amazon.com

at local stores most of the name brand non rechargeable batteries go for around 8-$12 and they don't even offer half the battery life of the rechargeable

also try not to use the no name brand extremely cheap batteries because if you run them through a charger that has a discharge feature or a device that can test hoe much power a battery has, you will see that many of the cheap ones will only have like 200mAh of power while the name brand ones for probably 2-3 times the cost may have 1500mAh capacity

dollar stores stock those cheap batteries because they have a high return on investment. 100 4 AA packs of those $1 panasonic batteries can be bought wholesale for about $10, so you stand to make $90 in profits

I bought 50 packs of them for $6 on ebay (a seller had it for $6 on the buy it now, i wish they still had it there, (I would have gotten 100 but i didn't have $10 in my paypal)

I use the batteries for the tv remote, and the wall clocks and the thermostat (whose 2 AA batteries last about 2-3 years)

if you want rechargeables buy them from places like amazon and go for the highest mAh you can find, if you want cheap non rechargeable, go wholesale or sites like ebay

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webweazel
September 23, 2009 5:43 PM
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@Razor512: I've tried the dollar store batteries, and they don't work worth a damn. I do get LARGE boxes of batteries from Academy Sports (nearby to me), best value around, and they're excellent quality and last for quite a long time.


That said, I use rechargeable NiMH in my digital camera, because it sucks batteries down so fast it's almost mind-boggling. I wait for NiMH batteries to go on sale at Harbor Freight, and stock up on what I need. Great for all those battery-powered kids' toys, too.


I wonder if I'm the only one annoyed by the fact that smoke detectors only use 9 volts? Replacing 8 of them 2X a year at $3-4 a pop is painful on my wallet. They NEVER come in big packs for a cheaper price, like AAs.

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HogwartsAlum
September 22, 2009 2:57 AM
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Pleah. I get Ray-O-Vac AAs and they work just fine and aren't expensive. I would never remember to keep batteries in a charger. I'm lucky I don't run out of gas in the car regularly, either.

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gman863
September 22, 2009 6:14 AM
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No rechargables here. I stick with alkaline batteries due to my firsthand knowledge of ther enviornmental benefits.


What enviornmental benefits?


Ivan (2004)
Katrina (2005)
Ike (2008)


If I luck out and have batteries in my hurricane stash left that are < 1 year from their \"use by\" date, I donate them to Toys For Tots at the Holidays.

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SonaliHamlegs
September 22, 2009 1:58 PM
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why is it that in almost every single alkaline-vs-rechargeable piece I read no one mentions the (imo) HUGE factor that alkalines give you power when you're nowhere near a wall outlet. I'm looking at you Garmin!! A GPS is such an amazing tool in the wilderness and can save your life if you get lost.... for a few hours. Then it needs to be plugged in.

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econobiker
September 22, 2009 2:38 PM
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One thing to think about is to date your rechargable batteries for inservice dates so you have an idea when they are worn out.


All our rechargable batteries start for the high drain camera etc use and then migrate to childrens toys and low value/low drain items after a couple of years.

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