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H3ion

September 8, 2009 3:54 PM

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Unless the man gained an awful lot of weight in Las Vegas, it seems that SWA should have been able to figure out that if he could fly one way, he could fly the other. Their planes are all the same.

Maybe it's an issue of giving these \"Leaders\" a little bit of discretion and a chance to apply some common sense instead of blindly following written rules.

10 replies

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Difdi

September 9, 2009 8:50 AM

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@H3ion: Actually, the problem seems to be that they have too MUCH discretion, since both articles about people being denied access to the plane due to weight seem to stem from the airline personnel refusing to follow the corporate rules for determining who is too fat. They used their discretion to skip the test mandated by corporate policy.

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Nogard13

September 8, 2009 6:55 PM

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@H3ion: What ever happened to SWA charging one person for two seats? Why not just charge him extra instead of not allowing him to board?

This, of course, after they verify if he fits in a seat or not.

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H3ion

September 8, 2009 7:18 PM

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@Nogard13: I don't know. Was that a SWA policy or some other airline? FWIW, I'm around 175 and as soon as we take off, that armrest goes up.

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sleze69

September 8, 2009 5:24 PM

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@H3ion: Although Southwest is in the wrong, I would be VERY glad that he was denied if I was in the seat next to him. Even if his fat waist would fit between the chair arms, I am pretty sure the majority of his frame would pour over into the adjacent seats.

Fly an airline with first class or lose weight, fatties.

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Duke_Newcombe-Making children and adults as fat as pigs

September 8, 2009 10:35 PM

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@sleze69: Very funny. We all know that folks that live under bridges can't afford to fly. FAIL.

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September 8, 2009 8:08 PM

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@sleze69: Awww, did somebody crawl out from under the wrong side of the bridge today?

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sleze69

September 8, 2009 11:43 PM

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@MsFeasance: Actually yeah. I just had this experience on Friday.

(sniff)

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varro

September 8, 2009 7:57 PM

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@sleze69: It's freakin' *Southwest*. Get to the airport earlier and you can sit next to the anorexic fundie Christian insurance salesperson.

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September 8, 2009 8:51 PM

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@varro: Actually with southwest you need to buy a printer. And print the boarding pass 24 hours before the the flight.

Getting there 3 hours before the flight most likely will still result in B40-60 range for boarding. I know because southwest screwed me and made me check-in at the airport and show ID. When I tried to login it said something about SWA procedures requiring ID. Which makes no sense. If it's a random security thing, why would and ID be needed(TSA checks it at security) and why can't I still secure my boarding spot in line?

/end SWA rant

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Bibliovore

September 9, 2009 4:30 AM

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@Corporate_guy: Actually, with Southwest you don't need a printer; just check in online up to 24 hours in advance via the big link on their front page, with no requirement to print the pass at that time. (Check-in may also be possible by phone, but I've never tried.) You can then get the boarding pass when you reach the airport, either from a desk worker or by \"reprinting\" it from a self-serve kiosk.

(If that's what you tried when you got the message about procedures requiring ID, then my apologies and condolences.)

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H3ion

September 8, 2009 7:16 PM

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@sleze69: There are people who are overweight or very large due to medical conditions. You don't necessarily have to eat your way to being overweight. If someone chooses to be big enough to require two seats, that's one thing and that person should bear some responsibility, but how do you know?

Also, just as an example, there are a number of professional football players who top 300 pounds and who in excellent physical condition. Do they have to sit on the wing?

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September 8, 2009 7:55 PM

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@squinko: It comes down to this: if everyone was overweight (to that degree, at least) then there's no way that everyone would fit on the plane. Just because you want to feel like you're the champion of the underprivileged doesn't mean that you can label dissenting opinions \"devolved\".

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coren

September 8, 2009 8:17 PM

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@Megalomania: But apparently they would - he says he fits in the seat fine, which means everyone would

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September 8, 2009 7:44 PM

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@H3ion: [i]\"There are people who are overweight or very large due to medical conditions.\"[/i]

Yeah, but that accounts for maybe 1 or 2 percent of the overweight population, tops. Regardless, others shouldn't have to suffer as a result. No offense to anyone with a medical condition that causes obesity, but it shouldn't literally be put on others. Plus, a simple doctor's note could circumvent such discrimination. As an insulin dependent diabetic I'm fairly used to making sure I have documentation citing my need to travel with supplies such as needles on the plane.

[i]\"Also, just as an example, there are a number of professional football players who top 300 pounds and who in excellent physical condition[/i]

I'm willing to bet that they don't spill over into the seats next to them though, which is really the issue at hand.

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squinko - SW BR F they call them, it’s an industry term

September 8, 2009 8:10 PM

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@wiggatron: \"I'm willing to bet that they don't spill over into the seats next to them though, which is really the issue at hand.\"

Have you seen how big/wide some of those guys are? I'm sure there is a lot of \"spill over\" with them.

@Megalomania: \"Just because you want to feel like you're the champion of the underprivileged doesn't mean that you can label dissenting opinions \"devolved\".\"

You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not labeling dissenting opinions \"devolved\". I was merely referring to the hate and crap that gets spewed on here every time this subject is brought up (as evidenced by the comment above that uses the word \"fatties\"). The discussion devolves into idiocy, which has nothing to do with dissenting opinions but unwillingness to be compassionate, or thoughtful, or use common sense. Please work on your reading comprehension for next time.

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September 8, 2009 7:45 PM

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@wiggatron: D'oh. Used BB code by accident.

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tbax929

September 8, 2009 6:20 PM

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@sleze69:
You're a jerk.

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SirWill

September 8, 2009 6:16 PM

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@sleze69: What an A$$

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sleze69

September 8, 2009 6:36 PM

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@SirWill: @tbax929: I am guessing that neither of you have to fly frequently with \"large\" bodies in the seat next to you.

It is true that I was pushing the disenvoweling threshold with the tone of my post but the point is that there is limited space in coach seats and obese passengers take more than their fair share.

While I am perfectly fine with sharing that space on the arm rest, it became irritating after the 10th or so flights when the person next to you is so large that he/she is taking up so much space that you have to lean over out of your seat into the aisle or into someone else's seat.

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LadySiren is murdering her kids with HFCS and processed cheese

September 9, 2009 12:36 PM

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@sleze69: Dear Consumerist Gods, please give us an \"Ignore\" feature for ill-mannered trolls who have nothing of value to add but can't seem to help shooting off their mouths...

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sleze69

September 9, 2009 1:08 PM

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@LadySiren: I am sorry if you were offended but my post was not an attempt at trolling.

I am genuinely irritated that some people feel entitled to my personal space when I travel. I feel that my opinion is valid and, based on the reponses of others here, there is support for my point of view.

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Munchie

September 8, 2009 9:48 PM

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@sleze69: Don't listen to the hyper sensitive crowds. Medical conditions that make you fat do exist, they are extremely rare. Fatties need to lose weight. The longer we wait to shame these people into action the worse the health epidemic will be.

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thezone

September 9, 2009 1:05 AM

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@Munchie: I'm sure all people with weight problems need is for people to shame them into action. Today most working people have little if any time to get to they gym. Additionally, genetics is a major factor in people's weight. Maybe we should just shame people like you who don't know jack.

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SybilDisobedience

September 8, 2009 7:15 PM

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@sleze69: Flying coach is frustrating even when your row-mates are not overweight, so I can commisserate re: your frustration with space constraints. But you definitely could've worded it better. \"Lose weight, fatties\" isn't constructive; it does nothing but piss people off and then they won't listen to anything else you have to say.

","

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September 8, 2009 3:54 PM

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Gahhh, Southwest. Those proportions are larger than in the previous article, so I tend to believe that the seat would have been too small. MAYBE. But continue reading before you jump all over me...

HOWEVER. And this is a big however. With two parts:

(1) Southwest needs to let him sit in a seat to see whether he can fit. Very simple.
(2) They need to be consistent. They shouldn't have let him fly on any leg of his trip if he didn't qualify.

2 replies

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September 8, 2009 3:55 PM

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@katstermonster: Correction - the previous article said \"a few extra pounds.\" I THINK Chip weighed less than 350 lbs., but I could be totally wrong.

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HiPwr

September 8, 2009 4:05 PM

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@katstermonster: I agree with you for the first part. Inconsistency is SW's issue here. Pretty shitty to let a guy travel one way on a trip and then deny him the trip back.

However, I also wonder about the word \"fit\". By that do they mean that a person can sit in a seat without a significant portion of the person's body spilling into the next seat?

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Hil-fish

September 8, 2009 4:14 PM

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@HiPwr: I believe the definition is, \"You must be able to sit in the seat with the armrests down.\"

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ARP

September 8, 2009 4:25 PM

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@Hil-fish: I've sat next to many a person who satisfied this definition, but they were definitely taking up more than one seat with \"spill-over.\" I don't mind minor cases on short flights, but I had a JFK-SFO flight where I was quite-literally smashed against the window/fuselage because of spillover and his cutoff t-shirt arms couldn't fit. I'm comfortable with my sexuality, but he should have bought me a drink for being mashed up against him for so long. I'm sure its not a picnic for him either, but I imagine he's more used to it.

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Eyebrows McGee (now with double the baby!)

September 8, 2009 5:17 PM

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@ARP: \"I've sat next to many a person who satisfied this definition, but they were definitely taking up more than one seat with \"spill-over.\"

As a small woman, I call these people \"men,\" who feel it is their god-given right to sit with their legs splayed open so Jim and the Twins are comfortable and who MUST have the arm-rest.

American men take up a LOT of space when they sit, regardless of their size.

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esc27

September 8, 2009 6:43 PM

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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!):
Some of it could be the overall lack of knee room on most older planes. Legs at an angle don't extend as far as those straight ahead.

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tbax929

September 8, 2009 6:22 PM

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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!):
I've been complaining about this crap for years. Is that their way of implying they are so well endowed that their junk can only be comfortable if they're legs are wide open?

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September 8, 2009 11:06 PM

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@tbax929: If I was a man I would not want to sit like a \"woman\" Esp. If it could potentially lower my sperm count. Assuming men love their \"Jims\" as much as I love my \"Jills\" and hate the constricting bras I have to wear for societies sake.

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Eyebrows McGee (now with double the baby!)

September 8, 2009 6:34 PM

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@tbax929: I just find myself terribly amused by men who complain about others infringing on their airplane space when I am quite sure those same men have been doing the same thing to women for YEARS.

(And I know there's a comfort issue with Jim and the Twins, but men in other cultures, particularly ones with a lot of mass transit, manage to sit without taking up two entire seats and squishing all the women around them.)

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September 8, 2009 11:02 PM

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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): I remember a book on French culture that contrasted photos with French male dignitaries and American male dignitaries sitting. Hilarious.

Those wide-stance folks also tend to claim the shared armrests for all their own.

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HiPwr

September 8, 2009 9:02 PM

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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): I am definately not one of those people as I make a concentrated effort to not touch ANYONE while on a plane. This despite the fact that my legs are bowed and it is not comfortable to have my knees touching.

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Cogito Ergo Bibo

September 8, 2009 7:06 PM

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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): This is why I feel very lucky to know far ahead of time when I'm flying and always snag an aisle seat. Sure, you get knocked around by the drink cart, but at least I'm not squished between people or up against a wall. But you can only plan that when you know pretty far in advance. And even then, we all know that a reserved seat can become mysteriously unreserved.

Either way, being small and female appears to be some sort of code to guys for, \"Take half my seat. Please.\"

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Duke_Newcombe-Making children and adults as fat as pigs

September 8, 2009 10:43 PM

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@Cogito Ergo Bibo: Hey...you're narrow: spread the wealth around!! ;)

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September 8, 2009 5:41 PM

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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!):

As a small woman, I call these people \"men\"

Thats just hilarious.

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Hil-fish

September 8, 2009 4:56 PM

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@ARP: @HiPwr: I'm not saying the definition is adequate. I'm just stating what the definition is.

And regardless of the definition, it needs to be codified by corporate and enforced by all gate agents in essentially the same manner. It should not just be the gate agent's call, and the customer can go to hell. The customer should have the right to appeal the gate agent's decision by demonstrating that, yes, he does \"fit\", however corporate defines \"fit\". There needs to be a consistent policy, with consistent methods of enforcing said policy. And that's lacking here.

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Tiber

September 8, 2009 8:26 PM

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@Hil-fish: Do like the amusement parks do and have demo seats by the ticket counters. If need be, customers can demonstrate to the salespeople, who can then make a note on the ticket, and in the database for future ticket sales.

Employees have a consistent policy, customers are treated fairly, and lines go smoother. Everybody wins.

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madog

September 8, 2009 8:58 PM

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@Tiber: They do have overhead compartment demos at my local airport. A seat may be more unsightly but that sounds perfectly reasonable. I'm sure there are thousands from junked airplanes they could use for only the cost of new seat covers.

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HiPwr

September 8, 2009 4:24 PM

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@Hil-fish: That being the case, I bet there is someone that was seated next to this man that was very grateful that he received such poor treatment.

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coren

September 8, 2009 8:18 PM

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@HiPwr: I doubt it - Southwest is a first come first served seating airline so no one was sitting next to him

","

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squinko - SW BR F they call them, it’s an industry term

September 8, 2009 3:55 PM

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I'd love to see this be a rational discussion of Southwest's and other airlines' policies regarding \"persons of size\". But just like every other story on Consumerist that mentions the overweight/obese/whatever, it'll just devolve into people telling others to lose weight, how they can't believe some people could ever be fat, how dare people be overweight, how much they hate fatties, etc.

To contribute, I think that if you are trying to make someone spend extra money for a seat, or are trying to keep them off the flight because of their size, then the onus should be on the company to prove that the passenger can't reasonably fit in said seat.

10 replies

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September 8, 2009 5:13 PM

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@[consumerist.com]\">squinko: I don't fly often, but the last time I did each leg of the flight was completely booked. If I had an obese person sitting next to me that can't fit into a seat that's going to infringe on my ability to at least be somewhat comfortable during the flight. In that case I don't think it's unreasonable to make someone purchase an extra seat. If the flight was only 2/3 full and there were empty seats, however, that's another story.

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esc27

September 8, 2009 6:53 PM

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@wchamilton:
There are a lot of reasons a person might not easily fit into an extra seat, obesity (due to bad diet decisions) is just one. Should underweight but large built people be forced to buy two seats? What about pregnant women?

When you go out into a public place you have to deal with the public, and it is not always pleasant. Unless the person next to you takes up 1.5 seats, suck it up and deal with it the same as if he/she is a talker, snores, smells, keeps going to the restroom, etc. or buy a first class seat yourself to avoid the masses.

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squinko - SW BR F they call them, it’s an industry term

September 8, 2009 5:49 PM

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@wchamilton: I don't see a problem with requiring a person to purchase a second seat (at most be charged half price in my ideal world) if there is going to be any \"spill over\". But I believe the airline should be required to show that there will be such a problem before making the customer shell out more money.

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ARP

September 8, 2009 4:39 PM

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@squinko: There are certainly a lot of reasons why people are overweight: genetics, disease, injury, environment, wealth, education, personaly responsibility, etc. So, it does no use to complain about that. However, an appropriate discussion is what should an OOP's (Overweight OP) obligations in these situations, or what can a company reasonably require? Buy two seats, require B-class or some other premium seat? Discount for seat-mates?

In my view, the end result of simply fitting in the seat isn't really enough, due to spill-over. The problem is how to quantify it. There's a small amount which I can tolerate for a short flight and there's heavy duty skin on skin action for a trans-oceanic/continental.

I know people Chip's size. And assuming he's not a linebacker, he will very likely have significant spill-over

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sleze69

September 8, 2009 6:58 PM

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@ARP: There are certainly a lot of reasons why people are overweight: genetics, disease, injury, environment, wealth, education, personaly responsibility, etc. So, it does no use to complain about that.

No. There is actually only one reason people are overweight: they are absorbing more calories than they are burning.

The solutions are more complicated and there are some people (disabled, etc) who cannot exercise enough to burn more calories. For that group of obese people, reducing calorie absorption is the only solution. Everyone else has the option to become more active or eat less.

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September 8, 2009 11:11 PM

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@sleze69: The science of nutrition finds the situation more complicated than you do, but that's beside the point--the fact is that people who walk into the airport overweight aren't going to be able to change that by the time they board.

Does your proposed requirement for people taking up more room require temporarily or permanently disabled folks to pay for first class as well? Or are you cool with the drunk driver who broke a leg taking up some of your space so long as he's not a fatty?

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squinko - SW BR F they call them, it’s an industry term

September 8, 2009 7:26 PM

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@sleze69: Thanks for proving me right.

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Amish Undercover

September 8, 2009 4:18 PM

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@squinko: As long as the person doesn't take up more than his seat -- his arms do not extend beyond the arm rest into my space (or if they do and I ask him to move them, he can) -- then I don't care. But if a person starts encroaching into other people's seats, even the slightest, and he cannot unburden them, then it becomes an issue. There is always the first class option for those who cannot fit in a coach seat.

I imagine a 350lb guy would encroach on the space of others. Please correct me if I am wrong.

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squinko - SW BR F they call them, it’s an industry term

September 8, 2009 4:45 PM

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@statgrad: \"There is always the first class option for those who cannot fit in a coach seat.\"

I was looking at first-class seats as a treat for my hubby and I for our anniversary this year, and the tickets went from $300/person for economy to $1000/person for first-class. I would hardly call that an option, at least an option that's viable for most people.

\"I imagine a 350lb guy would encroach on the space of others. Please correct me if I am wrong.\"

It all depends on how you are built, I guess. I have a few friends that just got back from the Gamestop managers' conference that are all varying sizes and shapes and some of them had trouble fitting in the seats comfortably (like my friend who is 5' 10\" and is only slightly chubby but has huge hips). My sis-in-law's fiancee is almost the OP's proportions (I think he's an inch or two shorter but is basically the same weight) and when they flew out to Vegas for my wedding last year, he fit just fine.

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H3ion

September 8, 2009 7:20 PM

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@squinko: If you can find a first class seat on a Southwest plane, you win a free trip.

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HFC

September 8, 2009 4:08 PM

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@squinko: He shouldn't have gone to Southwest, he should have made his own airplane at home.

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September 8, 2009 4:18 PM

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@HFC: Or he could fly his own plane. (Trust me, that actually was a serious reply.)

[consumerist.com]

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September 8, 2009 4:20 PM

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It is the comment by CurtBabarong at 3:16 PM, in case the jump does not work correctly. Someone needs to repair Consumerist's FTL drives.

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September 8, 2009 6:50 PM

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@MostlyHarmless: +1 for use of \"jump\" and \"FTL drives\" in the same sentence. Frakking awesome.

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September 8, 2009 3:58 PM

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@squinko: Bingo. I don't think the discussion should devolve too much, given the first three threads. I'm a little biased, though...hahaha.

","","","

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GitEmSteveDave_NowW/PantsOfMeat

September 8, 2009 4:00 PM

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I'm surprised they didn't say he couldn't demonstrate that he could fit in a seat because it's illegal to board a plane if there's the possibility you might not be allowed to fly/prove a desk pilot wrong.

Let me show you!

No.

Why not?

9/11

What does that mean?

9/11

Fine, I'll pay for the extra seat. Can I board now?

No. You can't fly now.

WHY?!?1

9/11

9 replies

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CarbonFiberFootprint

September 8, 2009 8:12 PM

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@GitEmSteveDave_NowW/PantsOfMeat: Just like Lois running for mayor...

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W10002

September 8, 2009 5:35 PM

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@GitEmSteveDave_NowW/PantsOfMeat: No, the reason they don't let fat people fly is because the fat could be used as a bomb!!! Hence the 9/11 card is always thrown.

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September 8, 2009 5:35 PM

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@sqnk: Sht p ftt!

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GitEmSteveDave_NowW/PantsOfMeat

September 8, 2009 9:35 PM

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@pigbearpug: Tr-tr-tr-triple Disemvowel!

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Hil-fish

September 8, 2009 4:10 PM

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@GitEmSteveDave_NowW/PantsOfMeat: You know, for years now they've had those little kiosks where you could see if your bag would fit in the overhead compartment - if your bag fits in the space given, you're fine. This is an ongoing issue, so why don't they just invest in one seat, with plexiglass around it, at the gate to determine if you'll fit in the seat? Or, hell, you know those \"you must be this tall to ride this ride\" signs? Why can't they have a \"your circumference must be less than this to board this plane\" measuring tape? That way it's not a judgement call on the part of some idiotic gate attendant.

I'm not trying to be unsympathetic or nasty - it just seems there has to be some way to standardize the process.

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ARP

September 8, 2009 4:44 PM

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@Hil-fish: I agree its a good idea. However, but I could only imagine the outrage from the \"borderline\" cases being pulled aside and asked to sit in the fatty chair.

Also, given the current stats on our nation's health, they'd have to start the boarding process much longer in advance to test the 25%+ of people that may fit in this definition.

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September 8, 2009 11:13 PM

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@ARP: They're pulling people aside based on visual judgment right now--I think the only difference would be a concrete standard on top of the gate agent's guesstimate.

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coren

September 8, 2009 8:20 PM

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@ARP: Won't those be the same people who have to demonstrate anyway though?

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Hil-fish

September 8, 2009 5:01 PM

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@ARP: Which is why you put it behind a curatin or something.

They're being pulled aside and humiliated already. This just sets up a procedure to be applied, so ridiculous situations like the one in the post don't occur. I doubt the guy gained so much weight on his trip that he was significantly larger than he was when he left on his trip.

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Mr_Human

September 8, 2009 4:24 PM

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@Hil-fish: Awkward!

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September 8, 2009 4:16 PM

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@Hil-fish: That's an awesome idea. Especially the privacy bit. Right on.

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hi

September 8, 2009 4:23 PM

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@katstermonster: +1 for adding privacy. This is ridiculous... 9/11? really? Did fat people hijack planes on 9/11?

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Hil-fish

September 8, 2009 4:30 PM

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@hi: I can absolutely envision them refusing to let someone get on an aircraft early on those grounds. The rationale would be something like: \"If we let you on the plane to see if you fit in the seat, if you didn't fit you'd have to leave the plane, but you could leave something on board and it could be a bomb and we'd never know it was you.\" I mean, this is the industry that, in August 2006, refused to allow my sister and me to board until we had thrown away the beverages that we had clearly purchased INSIDE THE AIRPORT on the grounds that they could be liquid explosives or something.

@Mr_Human: Oi vey, no kidding. I clearly need more coffee.

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Hil-fish

September 8, 2009 4:11 PM

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@Hil-fish: Wow, not with plexiglass around it - I don't know where that came from. With a curtain, so people can check in privacy. Big oops on my part.

","

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Kimaroo - 100% Pure Natural Kitteh

September 8, 2009 4:01 PM

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I can't help but wonder if these were the same agents that caused the trouble last time. Maybe they were never \"re-trained\" like Southwest said they would be.

I would imagine that before you tell someone they can't go on their flight for this reason, you should let them try and fit in the seat. How hard is that?

1 replies

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Jakuub

September 8, 2009 4:09 PM

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@Kimaroo - 20% More Kitty Added!: Maybe the Vegas trainer just hates persons of size and/or doesn't know the company line on this? Would sort of explain their consistent failures.

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Vandelay Import Export

September 8, 2009 4:16 PM

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Simple solution - get a row of seats, have at airport terminal, if the question arises if the passenger can't fit get the seats and test it.

5 replies

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September 8, 2009 9:11 PM

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@Vandelay Import Export: I doubt there is a need to test. Lots of people on the flights could be told to pay for two seats. They all manage to get the seat belt on but all definitely spill over. On my last flight there was what looked to be a 300lbs woman who was also pregnant. She sat down in the middle of a three chair row. I am pretty sure she ended up with that row to herself.

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rworne

September 8, 2009 8:39 PM

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How about one of those cut-outs that they use at the xray machines for carry ons?

Replace the boarding gate doors with sheet metal with a circular cut out and have everyone climb through. Eventually we'll get a re-enactment of Winnie the Pooh when he visit's Rabbit's house for Hunny.

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zombies.like.lattés.too

September 8, 2009 4:22 PM

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@Vandelay Import Export: they do the exact same thing at Cedar Point - there's a prototype of the ride seat at the gate entrance for that ride so you don't have to wait in line for 2 hours before realizing that you don't fit in the seat.

Although none of the staff ever \"eyeball\" people there. They basically only turn people away if they can't get the seat to latch closed, which is rather necessary to keep them from flying off the ride.

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XTC46

September 8, 2009 6:32 PM

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@zombies.like.lattés.too: Thats what I was going to say. I liked this a lot, becasue I am a bigger guy (both height and weight) so knowing i wasnt going to be able to get on a ride (I think there was 1 ride I couldnt go on) was nice, My group just skipped it, no big deal. Id have been pissed if we had waited 2-3 hours to be told no.

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September 8, 2009 6:06 PM

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@zombies.like.lattés.too: I worked at Six Flags, and we would pretty much just try to cram people in the seats. If it latched (usually there was a seatbelt, which, in addition to the lapbar, needed to click to show it was tight enough to be safe). Some people would try once, say that they wouldn't fit, and get out without a struggle. Others would tell us to shoehorn them in any way possible. I think it would be embarassing (on one ride, this meant a two-person job, with one person literally standing on the lapbar) as well as painful, but we did what we were asked. We didn't have a fake car out front, though. We should have. You could also be too tall to ride--I had a boyfriend in HS that couldn't sit in some of the rides, and the rumor was that Shaq couldn't ride the Mr. Freeze when he came to the park.

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Oranges w/ Cheese

September 8, 2009 6:24 PM

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@babyruthless: The new Rip Ride coaster at Universal has a \"too tall to ride\" height limit. I saw several men and one woman pulled aside to ensure they were short enough.

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redfox1

September 8, 2009 4:18 PM

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He's too big to fit in a seat without imposing on the person next to him. He's obviously flown before, so it should not have been a surprise to him.

I've flown next to people his size; it's an absolutely miserable experience.

Irregardless of the airlines rules, he needs to start taking responsibility for himself. His expectations are unreasonable, and his anger is childish.

7 replies

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September 8, 2009 8:37 PM

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@redfox1: He fit going up; why wouldn't he fit going back?

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ARP

September 8, 2009 4:48 PM

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@redfox1: -1 for fake word. I think it should both their responsibilities. SW needs to establish a clear rule and stick to it, even if the OOP may not like the result. OOP needs to be mindful of his size and see if there are alternate options available (e.g. two seats, window seat, b-class, etc.) when he flies.

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redfox1

September 8, 2009 5:55 PM

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@ARP: \"-1 for fake word. I think it should both their responsibilities.\" If we're keeping score, that will be -2 for invisible word and visible grammer.

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redfox1

September 8, 2009 5:57 PM

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@redfox1: ..and -1 for \"grammer.\"

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September 8, 2009 4:52 PM

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@ARP: Hahaha good catch. I missed that one, usually I'm all over the use of irregardless (the word with a built-in double negative!!!).

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DoubleBaconVeggieBurger

September 8, 2009 4:27 PM

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@redfox1: And you determined this man's size in relation to the seat.... how? You're correct that he's flown before, just recently from Chicago to Las Vegas, actually, without incident.

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redfox1

September 8, 2009 5:49 PM

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@Ayarkay: Well, the article says he is \"6'2\" 350lbs\". Unless he is extremely dense, with a singularity at his core, he will not fit without putting his elbow in my neck.

But no, I did not do a computer simulation.

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Difdi

September 9, 2009 8:55 AM

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@redfox1: muscle weighs more than fat. I know a guy once who was 6'8\" and 350lbs. And he was definitely not fat.

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JGKojak

September 8, 2009 4:30 PM

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@Ayarkay: Well, I've flown next to skinny people before, and it annoys me when they get up 10 times to practice their bulimia, come back smelling like vomit.

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doctor_cos wants you to remain calm

September 8, 2009 4:54 PM

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@JGKojak: Hey, I was eatin' here.

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September 8, 2009 4:35 PM

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@JGKojak: +1 for witty response to rude comment.

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Rusty-Shackleford

September 8, 2009 4:20 PM

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I can understand the too fat thing. I'm a big guy and I can barely fit in those airline seats. If you ever had to sit next to a disgusting fatbody like me or someone bigger, you would want us to buy a first class ticket or buy two tickets

4 replies

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September 8, 2009 4:41 PM

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@Rusty-Shackleford: I would rather sit next to a fat person that might end up with some part of their body touching me than a smoker.

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SirWill

September 8, 2009 6:30 PM

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@samurailynn: Or someone with so much perfume that it literally waters my eyes for hours.

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SybilDisobedience

September 8, 2009 7:18 PM

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@SirWill: Yes! Or someone who packs their own lunch for the plan, but chooses something extremely aromatic and unpleasant. I mean, I like onions, but I don't want to sit in an oniony tuna salad haze for four hours, thanks.

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Rusty-Shackleford

September 8, 2009 10:41 PM

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@SybilDisobedience: I once flew from Munich to Istanbul with a load of stinkin' Turks. The worst flight ever. The BO smelled like a Frenchman eating a cheese sandwich while getting a perm.

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tbax929

September 8, 2009 6:25 PM

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@samurailynn:
So you'd really be miserable next to a fat smoker.

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calquist

September 8, 2009 5:51 PM

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@samurailynn: I totally agree with you here.

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September 8, 2009 4:25 PM

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One issue I see, both with the consistency argument and the idea of having a 'sample chair', is of different equipment. Southwest is more consistent than most -- their fleet is, AFAIK, entirely 737s -- but even they fly a few different seating configuations. The actual seats themselves vary less than the configurations thereof, but, if we were to talk about a carrier like United with a more varied fleet, it wouldn't surprise me to learn there are girth variations between the seats on, say, a CRJ and a 757.

2 replies

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Hil-fish

September 8, 2009 4:42 PM

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@jackbishop: Then how about a measuring tape? Diferent ones for CRJs and 757s. \"This tape must be able to fit around your waist or you will not be allowed to fly.\" Measuring tapes are cheap.

Or, you do it for the most restrictive aircraft in the fleet, and make that your requirement. after all, Passenger A may fit easily into a seat on a 757, but on the next leg he'll be on a CRJ, and he won't fit in one of their seats.

There are ways to make it less of a judgement call.

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Slave For Turtles

September 8, 2009 5:34 PM

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@Hil-fish: That measuring tape thing might not work with pregnant travelers, assuming they've been cleared to fly in the first place by their medical provider.

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Hil-fish

September 8, 2009 5:48 PM

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@Slave For Turtles: My point is that there are undoubtedly ways to standardize it so that it's not just one gate agent being the bad guy or going on a power trip or whatever, with no guidance or support (or punishment) from corporate. But no one seems to be trying to find a solution that's fair to both the passengers/customers and the agents who have to make the call. Circumference might be a bad idea - lord knows I've done zero research on it. But the issue needs to be explored, because the system as it stands now is not working very well.

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September 8, 2009 4:26 PM

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There's no way a 350 pound man can fit into one airline seat. The problem is that some Southwest employees fail to enforce the policy... The headline should be Southwest Suddenly Decides to Enforce Its Fat-Flyers Policy.

2 replies

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September 8, 2009 11:16 PM

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@vladthepaler: He did fit. By the airline's own standards.

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coren

September 8, 2009 8:24 PM

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@vladthepaler: There certainly is, particularly if it's a taller man. A high weight isn't synonymous with fat.

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Franklin Comes Alive!

September 8, 2009 4:28 PM

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I flew yesterday on Southwest. There was a *really* fat guy in the row behind me. It was a full flight, and someone tried to take the seat next to him. He had apparently purchased both seats, as he had a special slip saying the seat was reserved. First time I'd ever seen it, though I know this is supposed to be the policy. Why couldn't they do that here?

5 replies

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ARP

September 8, 2009 4:51 PM

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@Franklin Comes Alive!: Because it annoys the passenger that they have to pay double and it denies the airline the ability to fill every single seat. Even if he bought two seats, there might be another passenger who paid full fare. I don't agree with it, but that seems to be the reality.

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September 8, 2009 4:35 PM

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@Franklin Comes Alive!:

Because though he could have purchased an additional seat, the fact that he became angry at Southwest trying to extort extra money out of him on his return trip, when the outgoing leg of his trip was just fine, made him a terrorist.

As far as I'm concerned, something like this should be in a passengers' bill of rights. If you buy a round trip ticket somewhere, and you fit in the seat just fine for your outgoing flight, they should not be able to deny you any other leg of your trip or force you to pay extra for it. It's one thing to say you can't leave your home. It's quite another to strand you away from it and demand payment to get back there.

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prag

September 8, 2009 4:50 PM

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There's two sides to every story. Maybe he WAS unruly. It doesn't pay to get angry at airline staff anymore though. They can all too easily play the \"unruly passenger\" card. It always pays to remain calm and polite when arguing your case to customer service and with the airlines doubly so.

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scoosdad

September 8, 2009 6:06 PM

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@prag: And if he was unruly as the article suggests, that's one possible explanation why Southwest wouldn't allow him onto the plane to prove whether or not he could fit into one seat.

There was a pretty good chance he couldn't fit, in the eyes of the gate agent, and once he was on the plane, it was going to be an even bigger deal to get him to leave the plane.

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Preyfar

September 8, 2009 5:32 PM

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@prag: I'd imagine hearing \"Sir, you are too fat and need to pay double for your airfare\" before getting ready to board a plane would be hard to take WITHOUT getting pissed off.

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Franklin Comes Alive!

September 8, 2009 4:41 PM

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I believe the policy is that if the flight is not full, the fat passenger doesn't have to pay for the extra seat. However, if it is full, then they do need to pay. This could potentially explain the discrepancy, though we obviously don't know all the details here.

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September 8, 2009 4:50 PM

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@Franklin Comes Alive!:

I'd heard that airlines aren't doing that anymore, they are making people pay for extra seats regardless of whether or not a flight is full.

I don't think it makes sense *not* to charge for extra seats. If you say, \"you can't fit in one seat, so you will have to purchase two for the duration\", then you avoid this problem entirely; either they will not pay for the tickets and therefore never leave home, or they will pay for both seats and have a guaranteed trip back and forth. Either way, you don't end up with people stranded away from home and ticket agents demanding more money.

Of course, you could lighten the blow of such a thing by adding: \"However, if one of your flights is not full, then we will refund you for the extra seat on that flight.\"

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September 8, 2009 4:33 PM

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@Franklin Comes Alive!: I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that they asked him to buy an extra seat, and he became combative. FTA: \"Southwest said the Chicago flyer was ultimately denied boarding because he was angry about being denied boarding and that other passengers were uncomfortable flying with him.\"

Also, the flight may have been full. But I'm making all this up. So yeah.

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September 8, 2009 4:30 PM

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As a frequent flier, let me just say that if you're really big, you should expect to either pay for first class (where the seats are bigger) or pay for 2 seats in coach.

I'm honestly not make any kind of judgement pro or con about being really big. It's just a simply matter of physics.

...that being said, I think SW really handled this badly. Again. They need to figure their shit out.

1 replies

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September 8, 2009 7:48 PM

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@YouDidWhatNow?: One of the most reasonable summaries of this issue I've seen. And least judgmental. Rock on!

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shepd

September 8, 2009 4:40 PM

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Living in Canada does have its benefits, sometimes.

1 replies

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September 9, 2009 8:26 AM

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@shepd: So, Canada basically makes it okay to be overweight. Not that it's...\"wrong\" or \"bad\" or whatever. But that seems kind of like total BS since a majority of obese invdividuals are so by choice or poor eating/exercising habits and are thus already a drain on your guys' \"great\" socialised medicine. So, the idea is to make it even more of a drain on society by adversely affecting already-struggling airlines' bottom lines? Yeah. Great move, America's Hat.

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September 8, 2009 4:41 PM

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Just wanted to weigh in and offer a little more background to this story. We would have allowed the Customer to board the aircraft to assess his ability to fit comfortably and safely in one seat if we were able to get him to calm down enough to have the conversation. The Customer immediately began screaming and acting irrationally when approached by our Employees. We attempted to calm the Customer down on several occasions but we were unsuccessful. The Customer was denied boarding based on his behavior - not based on his size. There is a point where the safety of other passengers onboard the aircraft must be protected. Of course, the consistency of the policy is something we do our best to maintain. Hope that helps clarify the story a bit.

-Christi Day
Southwest Airlines

1 replies

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AvonLady

September 17, 2009 3:21 AM

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@ChristiDay: I don't believe that for a SECOND Christi. As someone who had the SAME experience at the SAME airport...I asked to board and prove I could fit and was told NO in no uncertain terms by Razzy T at the LAS airport...the SAME person that gave the last story by Chip a problem. It seems to me that the problem is judgemental jerks working your LAS airport...since that is where all of these stories come from. If someone gets TO Vegas without incident it isn't fair to then turn around...and effectively STRAND the passenger and enforce a policy and say \"Ooops.\" That is where the issue has been with most people...they GET to Vegas only to be treated with disrespect and humiliation. It happened to me, but on a MUCH more disrespectful and harassing manner causing unneccessary emotional disrtress. The airline needs to ALWAYS enforce the policy or not. You can't keep expecting people to just accept a policy when you are only sometimes enforcing it. Razzy T needs to learn to be more respectful and less of a jerk. Not ok to harass a disabled person AND refuse to speak to their advocate. Bad move.

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3skr1mad0r

September 8, 2009 4:54 PM

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Make all of the seats outside of the gates the same width as a standard airline seat. I know not everyone sits but, there would be a way of determining at least some of the people who need pulled aside for testing.

1 replies

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Englishee Teacher

September 9, 2009 12:12 PM

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@3skr1mad0r: ugh. That would be freaking terrible! I'm already being squashed into that tiny seat for 14 hours, I'd rather sit on the floor for the 2 hours I'm waiting in the airport!

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Featherstonehaugh

September 8, 2009 5:13 PM

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Since there is no way a wheelchair can fit in an airline seat, does this mean the wheelchair bound can be kicked off of flights now as well?

2 replies

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September 8, 2009 11:26 PM

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@Featherstonehaugh: Wheelchair users don't fly sitting in their wheelchairs, though--the chairs in fact have to be stowed during flight. I get where you're going, but I'd make a comparison with somebody with a leg in a cast instead.

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tbax929

September 8, 2009 11:56 PM

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@floraposte:
We travel with a wheelchair. They usually put us in bulkhead when we fly so there's a little more room.

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Etoiles

September 8, 2009 5:19 PM

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This problem seems to happen with Southwest a lot... which might be because Southwest's seats are TINY. I just flew JetBlue IAD -> BOS this weekend, then made the return trip PVD -> BWI on Southwest.

I had middle seats both times. On my JetBlue flight, the guy to my left (next to the window) was seriously fat, and overspilling, but I was at least able to reach my volume controls and read my book. On my Southwest flight, the guy on my right (next to the window) was a well-built, pretty athletic 6'2\" (guesstimate), and he was so far overspilling into my seat that I couldn't move my right arm.

Southwest (a) needs to be more consistent, and (b) might consider removing a few seats from their plane configurations.

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neodon

September 8, 2009 5:27 PM

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I think this was a good opportunity for him. If he had walked home (about 1,750 miles) and burned about 100 calories per mile ([www.aarp.org]), then he would have lost 1750 * 100 / 3500 = 50 pounds! Do that a couple times and you are guaranteed to never have this problem again.

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September 8, 2009 6:24 PM

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Maybe I'm not understanding this very well, but I don't really see how 6'2\" 350 lbs is too fat to fly. Until about a year ago, I was 6'1\" 315 lbs and most people were floored when I told them how much I weighed, thinking I was only a few pounds overweight. Now I'm down to 250, my face looks a bit thinner, but in truth, I don't really look much different than I did before.

Maybe I'm just made of denser stuff? :P

1 replies

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coren

September 8, 2009 8:27 PM

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@WraithSama: I'm the same way - I'm not gonna go puttin weights out there but no one would believe my actual weight when I told them. I've dropped a bunch and now look my actual weight - but I've only gone down one pants size. Size is deceptive though - 350 pounds could just as easily be someone enormous as someone who's in great shape with dense bones or something

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MisterE

September 8, 2009 6:27 PM

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Large companies only learn of these things when it hits the media. After that, they prepare generic statements such as \"Employees will be trained\", \"We are taking this seriously\", \"We're investigating the matter\". These generic statements are used to buy time to come up with a plan to combat negative feedback.

Even though this has happened before, the procedure to handle the negative media attention is still the same. They will not change their ways, they will not care about the customer, and customers will continue to suffer crappy corporate policies - some of which do not exist.

In another month, we'll hear about another fatty who couldn't board the airplane.

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DogToy

September 8, 2009 7:28 PM

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What fattens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.

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September 8, 2009 7:30 PM

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I am flying in November and I will contact SWA regarding the LAS policies. I am going to ask if they will refund my rental car if the gate agents stop me from flying back.

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weave

September 8, 2009 7:36 PM

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What I hate is people who recline their seat into my 36\" inseam legs. I do try to fly first class whenever I can, and I never recline my own seat unless I ask the person behind me if they mind.

Basically my point is, the entire flying experience sucks. I spent an entire flight from Europe in the middle seat where on my left was a mother with an infant in her lap that cried the entire time and on my right was some guy that smelled like he hadn't showered for months. I just had a few drinks and tried to relax for 8 hours.

In short, yeah it sucks to be stuck next to a fat guy, or kids, or getting your legs squished, or having someone who wants to talk to you the entire flight while you're trying to do work, etc, etc...

Just deal with it.

1 replies

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Burning pakalolo not even noticing the weather

September 8, 2009 7:45 PM

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@weave: xanax my friend. It is like time travel. I pop 1 at the gate and one before take off, next thing you know the lovely flight crew is waking me up and the plane is empty :-)

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September 8, 2009 7:54 PM

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Why don't they just start charging all passengers based upon weight?

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Nik in Denver, formerly in NOLA

September 8, 2009 8:22 PM

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I'm eagerly waiting to be told that I'm too tall to fly (6'5\"). And admittedly, I am for coach. My knees are into the seat in front of me, not to mention that I fit rather tightly into the seat itself even though I'm not morbidly overweight.

1 replies

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September 8, 2009 10:56 PM

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@Nik in Denver, formerly in NOLA:

6'4\" here. Recently flew round trip to Italy. Spent most of it in coach, but part of it in the coach plus with a few extra inches. I wasn't really happy in either, heh, but at least the latter didn't leave me feeling like I wouldn't be able to get up again.

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coren

September 8, 2009 8:27 PM

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Go figure, same airport as before.

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banmojo

September 8, 2009 10:11 PM

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Okay, I know I'm Mr. FixIt man, but here's the solution to this problem: Have several 'fat seats' available (in the back where we don't have to try to squeeze past the big people bulging out into the aisle) and start charging people based on their personal weight. This is only fair, given that weight=fuel usage. Super obese people may think twice before buying that ticket if they're staring at a ticket price akin to first class prices. Or they may take their diet more seriously. Given that they also cost society more $$$ (medical costs) this is something society really needs to address, and soon as the obesity epidemic is only getting worse. Again, simple solution to any disorder of this kind, whether it be eating/fat, drinking/alcoholic, heroin use/etc is to take a draconian approach and force these people to get the practical help they need, whether they want it or not. What with all the social engineering our oh so 1duhfullofshite current admin is trying to pass I'm surprised they don't take it in this direction. Oh, wait, I'm always assuming the admin actually gives a shite about us commoners, when in fact they're just paying back the banks that got them elected.

1 replies

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thezone

September 9, 2009 7:31 AM

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@banmojo: Right obese people stay obese because people are just so darned nice to them. Maybe if people are mean they will just slim up. I think ISPs should have rates in an inverse relationship to a person's IQ. That way there will be less drivel in the comments sections like this one.

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mah4546

September 8, 2009 10:13 PM

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d nt fly Sthwst bcs pr ppl fly Sthwst, nd lt f th pr tnd t b ft.

2 replies

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September 9, 2009 12:46 AM

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@mah4546: GO HOME TROLL!

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September 8, 2009 6:10 PM

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@mah4546: A+ troll.

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jvette

September 9, 2009 12:12 AM

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So who owns the airline? I have been on flights where I had to sit in the middle seat and a huge person was next to me and hanging over into my area. It is pretty uncomfortable for me and very tough on a long flight. I guess it can just be bad judgement on the person who has to make the decision on who is to big for one seat but if I had to be the one i would be pretty tough.

Then again someone needs to make the airlines give us more room in that tin can they call an airplane. Those seats are even small for a average size person.

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Razor512

September 9, 2009 2:28 AM

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Why cant airports do this, have a section in the airport that has 1 sear from each type of plane they have (for business class and economy class) then based on the persons ticket, if they are seen to be too fat, then they can simply just have them sit in one of the sample seats to see if they fit or not, the chairs are not that expensive and it will save a lot of headaches.

Weight is not enough information to tell is someone will fit in a seat or not. for someone of that height, a healthy weight is around 184, one of my friends is 6ft tall and plays football, he weighs around 250 pounds which is considered obese but he is not fat, just has a lot of muscle. muscle is heavier than fat.

a more accurate reading will be BMI but even then there people who are like 300 pounds and are fat enough to fill 3 airplane seats and there others who have a similar BMI and can fit properly into 1, it depends on how the fat is distributed

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chipware

September 9, 2009 2:55 AM

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Yes, fat people on airplanes is a problem, which is what Southwest's policy tries to address.

However, the problem at hand here is Southwest's inconsistency on applying the policy. They allow gate agents to block travel to people on an arbitrary basis. Southwest has rules and procedures for \"customers of size\", they simply don't follow them.

I seriously hope it wasn't the same gate agents who gave me a hard time.

FYI I have flown about a dozen times since they blocked me from getting on a plane and I haven't been stopped since.

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nstonep

September 9, 2009 8:09 AM

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I guess people don't realize how slim coach class seats are nowadays (well...delta, us air, aa, and commuter flights). I'm sorry, but unless you book seats together (in this case his wife) so you're not bothering the person next to you he should probably fly first class (or avoid the problem and fly jetblue).

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September 10, 2009 9:10 PM

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The linked article has a video of the man. He is clearly too large to fit into any airline's coach seat. Once you have been on a cross country flight seated next to someone who took over both their own and your seat, you loose a lot of the sympathy.

I have several close family members who are too large to fly in one seat. Southwest makes them purchase a 2nd seat and then, if the flight is not full, they get a refund on that 2nd seat. It's really not a bad way to ensure that everyone gets the space that they pay for and are not sitting on top of each other.

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AvonLady

September 17, 2009 3:24 AM

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@polymergirl: But see if the person DOES fit...they ONLY get their money back if the flight isn't full? With no way to PROVE they fit this policy is bias and leaves it up to discrimination and judgements....not a smart move.

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cubsd

September 10, 2009 11:24 PM

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He was denied boarding because when Southwest questioned if he would need another seat, he started yelling and carrying on. So they weren't going to let him board until he calmed down, which didn't occur.

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AvonLady

September 10, 2009 11:56 PM

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On August 12, 2009 I had the same experience at the Las Vegas airport. Furthermore, we had PROOF that I fit in the seat with the arm rests down without a problem. They refused to look at it. This issue was made worse when I began having an axiety/panic attack regarding this issue. The supervisors refused to talk to my advocate in spite of my clearly having a problem breathing and talking. I had flown from Portland to Vegas without incident. NO problem....and I fit in the seat just fine. This seems to be an ONGOING issue with the Las Vegas airport....and I would bet it was the same people I dealt with and Chip (the previous story) dealt with. It got so bad I was admitted to the hospital due to the severity of the attack.

Apparently SWA and these employees haven't learned their lesson. We are currently in contact with the media to bring this issue out even further. For me it wasn't about being asked about a 2nd seat so much as the reckless abandon to cause emotional distresss and harassment. It's really quite unbelievable. It is a shame that over and over people are being treated this way.

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