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Yup, welcome to 2006 guys. They've been doing this for ages.
2 replies
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@LostTurntable: How exactly is this Microsoft's fault? They're not the one releasing the add-on nor setting the price...
Yup, welcome to 2006 guys. They've been doing this for ages.
@LostTurntable: How exactly is this Microsoft's fault? They're not the one releasing the add-on nor setting the price...
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This is pretty shady on the part of Microsoft. They own one of the most popular consoles on the market - they can't spare a measly add-on? It's an add-on, for heaven's sake, one that Microsoft itself values at $7 - I guess it can shrug and say, \"it's only $7, what's the big deal?\" but it's a stupid move on their part.
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@pecan 3.14159265: profits profit, and you really can't fault a BUSINESS, which has at its bottom line the need to make PROFIT, for trying to make (not unreasonable) profit. if you don't like it then really game on a PC ffs.
@pecan 3.14159265: What Microsoft means by \"economy of value\" is they don't want other companies they work with to look bad because Valve is giving away free content while those guys are trying to charge for it.
They also want to keep strict pricing controls strict to have a monopoly. Since Microsoft gets a cut, it's better for them if they keep the pricing consistent so that no one feels the need to lower prices to compete.
@pecan 3.14159265:
Well here's a perfect chance for everyone to exercise capitalism.
Let the free markets do its thing
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@pecan 3.14159265: Agreed with ikiddo and Kogenta. And think about piracy. It's very very easy to pirate off the PC downloadables, but the Xbox etc is next to impossible. Try selling it on PC, it's going to be a flop. Xbox - captive audience.
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@pecan 3.14159265: Is it? Is it really a stupid move? I mean there are so many companies that \"want\" the add on to be free of theirs .. Well sponsor it. Ms has to pay for hosting and high quality servers as it is so that people can download this stuff. If you want it you buy it if not dont.
It really is not shady for them to be making money out of there own service.
@ikiddo: It's not shady if that was the cost of hosting and bandwith, but suffice to say, I have a hard time believing that it costs them $7 a pop to host what amounts to 500MB-1GB of data.
It really just boils down to the culture of different gamers. PC gamers have long gotten all their downloads for free (largely) whereas XBL gamers have virtually always had to pay $7 for the same add-ons. Therefore many gamers won't even bat an eyelid anymore when MS puts them up at those prices.
@Kogenta: \"I have a hard time believing that it costs them $7 a pop to host what amounts to 500MB-1GB of data\"
How many people are downloading that 500MB to 1GB of data, though? I doubt that $7 is keeping their company profitable. I would bet that $7 has just a little profit baked into it, but I don't see them making $6 or $6.50 off of this thing per download.
I think people need to value their entertainment. Do you think you will get $7 worth of entertainment out of the download? If so, buy it. If you do not see yourself getting your $7's worth, don't waste your money. If they were pushing expansions on us at $60 a shot and requiring them for online or offline play, it would be a different story. If they are offering additional entertainment at a low price, people just need to do a little thinking and decide on their own.
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Nothing new. I just wish MS would be consistent.
This is why I mainly play PC games these days. I still play some stuff on the 360, but buy most major titles on the PC if available. The 360 makes a nice media center thought, and that's really what I use it for 90% of the time.
@dtmoore: I wanted one PC in the house (we're an Apple household) just for games, and Mr. Pi patiently reminded me of just how much time I've spent playing the PS3 (about 20 hours total). I still don't have a PC to run Resident Evil 3, and I also still haven't played all of Devil May Cry.
@mazzic1083: Well, Devil May Cry is for the PS3 and Resident Evil 3 is on PC. But mt larger point was that I really don't ever play games on my PS3, I watch DVDs on it.
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I play Left 4 Dead and personally this is ridiculous. It is bad enough that you have to pay $50 a year for xbox live and $50-60 for each game. Now they want to charge me $7.00 for something that should be free since I bought the game and their stupid service. MS is getting unbearable and this may be the breaking point.
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@tawni: Left 4 Dead's previous DLC was free, would be a bit unfair for Value to have free DLC for it's game all the time compared to any other game on Xbox, no?
@lulfas: oh good lawdy on high, PS3 gamez suk nuts man. I have all 4 options available at home, and you really need to see PS3 games next to x360 games. The x360 games play BETTER, look BETTER, even though the hardware is nowhere near as robust as the ps3. Sony sucks so BAD for not paying the necessary money to developers to make shite hot games on their newest console. ###king pride goeth before a fall, and Sony has been bending over for MS for past 3 years now due to this fact.
@lulfas: Two points:
1. Valve doesn't support Playstation 3.
2. Left 4 Dead isn't available on Playstation 3.
I agree with above posters: Microsoft could be a little more flexible with DLC in terms of costs set by the developer. This \"Paid DLC on 360 and free on PC\" scheme only serves to alienate fans of the game on their console. Most look down on Valve for this decision, even though Valve supports free downloadable content.
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@tawni: Oh quit complaining. MS has been doing this stuff for years and just now you're having a problem with the way they run their business? Remember, the DLC that becomes available over XBL has to go through a vetting process before it's made available. That's several hundred man-hours to make sure that the content that they're providing over their service is up to par.
And just because Valve can put an update out for free over Steam doesn't mean it won't be pain free. Hell, they've had to constantly tweak updates and add-ons in the past. MS is attempting to make sure that sort of thing doesn't happen. If MS didn't try and make sure everything worked right the first time XBL would be flooded with tons of bullsh*t updates and addons. And then you'd be complaining out there not being some sort of quality control.
@Bhockzer:
Most of the Fallout 3 DLC was riddled with problems so much that they required people to delete the DLC and download a new version of it. So \"hundreds of hours of vetting\" has allowed huge game crashing content to be sold to thousands on multiple occasions.
@tawni: Devil's advocate...
You bought the game, and you received the game. You bought online gaming, and you receive online gaming.
What entitles you to additional content that the publisher decides to release?
I don't know about Left 4 Dead or COD, but Halo map packs were never required until they were a free download. They were always optional for the first 3-4 months.
Keep in mind, Valve has (according to multiple interviews) asked Microsoft over and over to offer their downloadable content for free, just like it is on Steam. It's for that reason that the extra content for Team Fortress 2 on the Xbox 360 has suffered.
I think that if it's the developer's wish that they receive the extra content for free, then that should entitle the purchasers of L4D. This is a greedy money-grab on the part of Microsoft, and nothing more.
@Dwight K. Schrute: And, as has been pointed out, additional content costs a lot to produce. You're looking at a team of a good 10 people (or more) for a top tier game for a month (or more). That money doesn't all go to Microsoft. It helps the game studio recoup the cost of making the DLC, which, btw, almost never breaks even.
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Valve can afford to subsidize their bandwidth and provide their content to all their PC users. MS even with the price of XBL still loses money on XBL and since they have to host the files and pay for the bandwidth they will charge for content that will sell. With that said MS still has a lot of free content. If you can afford and can deal with the quirks of PC gaming then go for it.
@logicalnoise: Where is the evidence to support they lose money on XBL? In fact, profit projections (albeit there are no solid numbers that I could find about actual profits, other than that the division is still making money) were very high for the Video Marketplace, Arcade, etc. -- to the tune of 92 million (again, projected). Between those numbers, ad revenue off various parts of the application, large partner agreements with companies like Netflix, and the actual revenue they make by charging for the service, I can't see how they could lose money even with YouTube-esque bandwith costs.
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@logicalnoise: As a tri-platform gamer (PS3, 360, Wii) and someone who built his own gaming rig I have to ask, what quirks are you speaking of?
@Jeremy82465: HW and driver inconsistencies, patches, broken downloads, server uptimes, cheaters, aimbots, script kiddies, DRM that opens your computer to viruses, I can go on. No not all of those are exclusive to PC gaming but you do encounter all fo those from time to time.
@Jeremy82465: Oh, how about the fact that no PC gamer is treated equally in the eyes of the developer. If you can afford to outfit yourself with a killer PC then you've got that much more of an advantage over the other guys. At least on a console you're guaranteed that everyone is playing with the exact same set up. There's no need to worry about how has the best graphics cards or who has the faster processor anymore.
@Bhockzer: Guess I never thought about that before. I also edit video and render 3D graphics with my PC so I have to keep it updated constantly and never really thought about the fact that PC game makers constantly use higher end graphics and force people to get new hardware, good point though.
When you purchase a closed platform - you should expect this. Its the same as iPhone ap store, theres all kinds of crap they charge you for on there that is free on the PC.
Get a PC if you dont like it , all the games are on the PC and you usually get better graphics.
A tricked out Xbox with all accessories costs you 400-500 bucks , a PC that runs Left 4 dead well - 800-1200+ bucks.
I have a Gaming PC and XBOX and a Wii - I prefer the PC , but I have alot of friends on XBOX so often I pay for this stuff and I dont like it either, but its somehting we have to accept if we are willing to use closed systems.
@dgruzew: Developers are who set the app's price on the iPhone, so I wouldn't compare that to something where it's Microsoft's decision on what to charge for and how much.
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@dgruzew: There's no comparison to the app store here. If developers want to release free content on the app store, they can.
@dgruzew: An XBox is about $300 now, so your figures are off - and you do realize that the difference in cost between an XBox and a PC basically dispute your \"PCs are better\" argument. We're not talking $50, we're talking at least a $400 difference. That's not pocket change.
@pecan 3.14159265: No, you just have poor reading comprehension. \"A tricked out Xbox with all accessories\". Xbox costs 300. Live costs 60. Wireless adapter (which every study keeps showing is the most common form of networking in American households) costs 100. Now we're at 460 with no tax, no shipping, and none of the other accessories. Left4Dead is a VERY simple game to run, as most Valve games are. Unless you're running in a very large resolution (and, if you bothered to buy a 24\"+ monitor, you probably have a good computer already), a 500-600 dollar computer will run it just fine.
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@pecan 3.14159265: At the same time, I can easily put together a PC that will run \"Left 4 Dead\" handily, for about $400 - $500.
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Let me call the wahmbulance. No one is forcing you to buy it. Don't want to pay the 7 bucks? Well no content for you.
I would gladly pay 10 bucks for the TF2 add-on that Valve was saying would be available at the end of 2008.
Paying the money is better than the alternative, which is having nothing extra at all.
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I have to pay for a cell phone call that I can make from my home phone for free! They are scamming me! Someone call the BBB!
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So Valve decides to give stuff for free for THEIR game on THEIR distribution system and that's cool.
Microsoft charges to distribute someone else's content on their system and that's bad? I fail to see the logic here. Bandwidth/distribution/support ain't cheap last time I checked. Also last time I checked Microsoft wasn't running a charity.
There's a fine line between Consumer Protection and being anti-commerce. This article crosses that line.
@Rask: Well why are you paying $60 a year for xbox live then?
I didn't see them charging me $10 for the 6 gig windows 7 RC image that I downloaded.
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@Rask:
It's simpler than that.
Microsoft wants to make you think everything is worth more than it is. By preventing free content on their servers (Which developers ALREADY PAY TO PUT ON TO BEGIN WITH, long before ANY consumer can purchase) they make the pay content look better.
It's done to keep the value up of the other overpriced garbage. This isn't the first free content they've denied or priced up.
Combine that with the lack of being able to buy with exact change, shadily priced conversion to make it look like you are spending less and an annual fee for basic things that EVERY OTHER PLATFORM IN EXISTENCE DOES FOR FREE, and you end up with why MS is greedy.
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@Rask: Plus, when you buy Left 4 Dead on Steam *ALL* of the profit goes to Valve. All of it. On Xbox Live it's not the case. Valve generates a hell of a lot more money on Steam and can offer it for free because they've made more per copy than they do on the 360. The DLC costs probably help recoup finances.
The latest DLC on Steam for FEAR 2? It costs cash. Not all PC DLC *is* free. A vast majority of it is, but not all of it (see: Oblivion Horse Armor fiasco).
Guess what? Steam is making some of the money, don't act like they are not involved. The last update for l4d was free. So I don't think it makes sense to claim Microsoft is against free. There may be pressure, but they clearly don't require a charge.
And why would anyone buy an l4d update on xbox? The 2nd one comes out in november and it will most likely get the same treatment of almost no game on the disk and no real updates. It's pretty clear valve relies on user provided content. Content that cannot be made available on the xbox. So valve games suck on the xbox.
If you want l4d 2, wait til spring and pick it up for 20 bucks. 60 dollars is way too much for a game that will nickel and dime you for content and not give you access to all the user generated content. The pc version is cheaper and provides all the extras for free.
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@Corporate_guy: I find it funny that's what most of these comments are missing.
Valve says 'Free as in Beer for everyone!!'
MS says 'noooo you gotta charge for it!!'
Valve says 'fine, whatev'
MS says 'ok...$7, and oh you get a slice of the pie too'
Valve says 'the pie is the truth! *nom* *nom*'
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This is nothing new and isn't really an issue. Almost all Valve content that has been free for the PC purchasers costs money on the consoles. There are also flash-based games that are free to play online (Zuma knockoffs, etc), but cost $10 on XBL and PSN.
As someone else said, there's a difference between protecting consumers and being anti-commerce.
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Microsoft owns XBL, if they want to charge you, let them. It's their service they can do whatever they want with it.
If people don't like it, they don't have to buy it.
When you download it from Microsoft, they are using their own bandwidth, which cost money.
And Microsoft has lot of free stuff on XBL.
People just like to bitch and moan about everything.
Exactly, the fact that I download free demos has probably saved me hundreds of dollars on games I would have immediately regretted. That's money neither Microsoft nor the game developer got for a service rendered.
@Schmeeky: Wait why are the demo's free if the cost for DLC is the bandwidth?
I'd like to know why I'm buying a gold membership every year for play multiplayer games that are hosted by other peoples internet/xbox's
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@Jerkamie:
Answer:
because the free demos create a stronger possibility of a consumer purchasing the full versions of games at market value. Give them a taste of 1 level, and they want the rest.
Hang on. This is not a MS vs Valve or Steam decision. Each company negotiates with the publisher - and they are paying the publisher. In the PC world, companies sponsor the DLC, which is how it becomes free. In MS - they don't have that. So they charge. The purpose, as I've pointed out, is twofold. They have to cover bandwidth, which adds up, and the publisher / studio wants some return on investment in the DLC, which isn't cheap. They provide the DLC to keep players interested - but they don't often make money back from that, unless it is SUPER popular, because it is not trivial to make.
Ramen, brother.
People are too busy wanting to put down Microsoft, but software licenses cost money, too.
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Console players are morally, spiritually and genetically inferior to those playing First Person Shooters on their PC/Macs. It's good to see Microsoft acknowledging this simple truism.
With Team Fortress 2, they're even more fiendish. They promise to update it (computer gamers have enjoyed at least ten updates chock full of bountiful goodness) for an additional charge, which has still to see the light of day.
@Lincolnsbeard33: A lot are, actually Most of 'em, besides Valve games. For those that aren't, dual-booting or Parallels. Or the Cider emulation (TF2 runs fine under it, so ironically, you can steal TF2 to play on the Mac, but can't legitimately buy it).
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@Trai_Dep: Haha I love the attempt to divide the masses here.
Though I do agree that pc shooters (and pc games in general) seem to have some better advantages like free patches and more user generated maps/patches/hacks etc.
@mazzic1083: Yup. It's pretty funny to see the strum & drang of console v console v computer gamers.
Can't we all get along? While gibbing, of course.
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One reason I keep the trusty PC around... TF2 and L4D are both games I only play on my desktop!
If they are using the whole bandwidth excuse. They could have just got with a magazine or game store and allowed them to put a disc that downloading it to the system. I'm sure gamestop would've had loved to hand these out with as a preorder bonus when you preordered the second.
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Yes, as many have stated, this isn't anything new with MS and Xbox Live. I think it's just a relatively unique situation, where you have two companies, each with their own distribution platforms. One chooses to release content for free, the other charges for just about every piece of new content.
It's no one's \"fault,\" MS knows they can sell the content at $7 and Valve doesn't want to charge on Steam.
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I would point out that it's not like it's the same application being free in one case and charged for in another. A port to another platform is a new codebase, fresh development work, debugging, etc.
I do agree that if it's free in one case it should be free in another, but don't equate this to the exact same item being free in one case and not another.
I once bought MS points online with my credit card (I live in Canada). It costs approximately 16% more to buy X number of points if you live in Canada than in the US, which I can understand due to exchange rates. It really doesn't cost MS anything extra to offer points in one country vs. another. Yet on my credit card, I am charged exchange, so it actually cost me a 35% premium to get those points. Now I only buy points at the store on a card, because at least there I don't get dinged twice for exchange.
I bring up this story because I am in agreement with the OP and those who say, \"It's MS greed.\"
I'd like to add my 2 cents to this mess. I've been an avid PC gamer for a hot minute now. I was stunned & shocked to see that I had to pay for the extra add-on maps for Call Of Duty 4. While on the PC, all new maps are FREE. Why should I pay Xbox or PS2 online services for something that is free on a PC. Con-artist.
PC has always been the preferred system for the truly serious gamers out there. Easier to keep hardware cutting edge (it DOES make a major fundamental difference obviously). In the Golden Age of gaming, all the good stuff was often only available on PC in fact. Since the 'next gen' consoles this has all changed and I see most games have been watered down to appeal to the unwashed heathen masses. It makes me sad a bit, but I had my fun and shot my load(ed gun) in days of yore so really I can't complain too much.
Hey, really off topic but when are we gonna see an updated version of Goldeneye - I'm talking completely revamped re graphics but with the same awesome flow/feel of the original? Gosh darn that would rock my little world. Annnnnd, while we're at it SOF4 much?? A sequel that DOESN'T suck (SOF3 much?)
First off, I have to say I enjoy xbox live a lot. Next thing though is that I have to admit that over the past few years it has become increasingly apparent that GREED is the name of their game. Prior to the 360, there were quite a few \"open\" platform games that allowed you to create your own maps (Time Splitters 2 comes to mind. (Great game that they never allowed to become back-playable on the 360. Hmmmm. Tons of cool maps were developed by fans for free!). Then, the expansion disc for Halo 2 came out. One guy buys it, and all his friends load it on their consoles and split the cost. MS did not like this, I guarantee it. Next, the 360 generation. New game released, a couple months later, expansion maps released for a fee, followed by the maps being released for free a few months later. Not any more. No more holding out! No tickee, no washee! If you don't pay (generally about 30-40% the cost of the game for 3 maps, you do not get the maps in addition to getting booted from a game if the map cycle has a map you don't \"own\". You may have noticed \"\". That's because if your 360 dies, or something happens to it, You must buy it again (Please note: No \"\" around the word BUY). On top of this, they're nailing more suckers to the wall with the \"avatar outfitting store\" (or whatever they call it). I gave my son a couple xbox live points cards for his birthday and was dismayed to see he used his points on some of this meaningless crap (shades of Joe Camel). Sure, it was his to spend, but I think they're targeting a captive and underage audience with their marketing. I no longer allow the kids to have open points on their accounts so as not to fall prey to such unscrupulous marketing activities. Yeah MS, we'll keep playing, but we'll also badmouth your GREED at every oportunity!
Meh...I'm still kind of angry that the game tokens you buy in stores are the same price as the digital only tokens (ie fallout 3 expansions)...economically the one that requires printing, packaging, and distribution should be more expensive.
In summation...you're getting the tokens with a package cheaper than the digital ones.
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One reason that PC gaming always beats console gaming. You guys realize you pay for xbox live for features that I get free and always have gotten free for the PC.
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Don't want to pay $7? Don't buy it, pussies.
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As for the TF2 updates thing, Valve has said it time and time again that the reason TF2 hasn't been updated on the 360 like it has on the PC is due to the 360's pitiful texture memory which prevents Valve from bringing over alot of the content. And unfortunately the 360 can't swap between active memory and a storage device like a PC can. All Xbox 360 games have to be able to work without the memory card or hard drive inserted in the system.
Really though, I think the only reason there even is a 360 version of the orange box and L4D is because 1) its cheap and 2) EA probably put a little bit of pressure on valve to do it.
VERY few of my Xbox360 owning friends own the 360 version of the Orange Box. Mainly because I told them not to.
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This isn't new, their a bunch of jerks. They charge for map packs for call of duty $10 a piece that's also free on the pc.
And they annoy you into buying it. The last time I tried to play I managed to get about 2-3 rounds in before being kicked out of the game for not buying the map pack.
@Jerkamie: How exactly is this Microsoft's fault? They're not the one releasing the add-on nor setting the price...
@Jerkamie: How did the OP get kicked out of a Call of Duty game for not buying the mappack?
I didn't buy the mappack and have never been kicked from a game because of it. The game just changes matchmaking options to pair you up with other players who don't have the map, and even if you are in a party with friends who have the maps, the game still refines the rooms to the lowest common denominator in regards to map packs.
...and why is it always Microsoft's fault? Sony does this on the PS3 too...
@Jerkamie: There's a simple solution to all this. Just go buy a $1000 PC, or you can pay a couple bucks extra here and there for your $300 XBox.
Valve always has and always will favor PC, at least that seems to be the companies reputation. TF2 almost never gets XBox patches, but PC version has tons of new content in that game alone. It's just easier for them to do PC updates I guess. (I assume because their approval process is internal.)
So they aren't greedy, they are just recooping some of their losses due to the extra requirements for XBox publishing. Buy a PC if you don't like it, or just don't buy the expansion.
Just like the movies, when was the last time you spent less than $20 for 2 people at the movies? It's all about the addons.
@ikiddo: Agreed, Infinity Ward's matching system for CoD4 makes sure you can't get put into games that you don't have the map packs for. So if you don't buy you simply don't play them. There's none of that BS where half the people get kicked from the session because they don't have the maps.
@Jerkamie: That is not MS but Tyreachs very bad match making system.
@Jerkamie: This is exactly why I never signed up for the online access to the XBox 360 and why I refuse to buy any game with online content for the XBox 360.