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Those who feel that the Muslim lady is right to force Abercrombie and Fitch to let her wear her headgear while working there, I assume you 100% agree with the Jedi on this as well, yes?
Anything less would be rather hypocritical. The Jedi are a recognized religion in some places.
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@shepd: Jediism isn't a religion. It's a nerd flailing his arms around like a spastic because someone made fun of him and his stupid hoodie.
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@shepd: I've worn my Jedi outfit to New York a few times and have never faced any opposition. I just wish Meghann Marco would drop that restraining order against me.....
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@Difdi: First, this is a UK case, so I do not want really want to compare between it and the US, which I tried to make clear in my original comment. And, the Constitution would not apply there, obviously.
Second, the US Government, by way of the military and the IRS, often makes decisions regarding the legal status of religions. Congress has nothing to do with it.
Third, the National Statistics Office (UK), which gave Jedi an official code (896) after it was written in by about 1% of the population, does not recognize Jedi or any other religion.
Fourth, \"Heathen\" and \"Atheist\" each also have census codes in the UK, 897 and 898 respectively. So, if Jedi is a legally recognized religion on the basis of having a census code, Heathen and Atheist must be as well.
@shepd: If this happened in the US, and Jedi were a recognized religion in the US, then yes, I would say this man has just as much right to wear his hood as a Muslim woman has to wear a head scarf or a Jewish man to wear his yarmulke. However, to the best of my knowledge, Jedi is not a recognized religion in either the US or the UK, so it is not the same situation.
You are aware there are no \"recognized\" religions in America right? Yes, in a sense, the IRS does play the approval card when it comes to whether or not a religious organization is non-profit, and therefore, tax-exempt, but they never get involved in saying whether or not the religion in general is \"recognized\". As long as your religious beliefs are sincere, and theres no evidence this guys aren't, its accepted that any discrimination against him based on said beliefs could be construed as discrimination.
@halfcuban: The US gov't may not have approved religions as such. However, the military has a list of religions that it officially recognizes for purposes such as burial rites, I believe. A variant of Satanism appears on that list. Whee.
@BrooklynKnight: Then yes, I do support this man exactly as much as I support the Muslim woman in the A&F case, or a Jewish man who chooses to wear a yarmulke, or any other person wearing religious clothing, as long as it does not pose a significant and immediate threat to others' safety or health.
@SpruceStreetPhil: Actually, if you look at the philosophical side of it, many (if not most) beliefs of the Jedi mirror those of Eastern religions. So, while this bunch may seem on the surface to think it's cool to want to be like those who move things with their minds, could they possibly be drawn because of the core beliefs?
Food for thought, here.
@SabyneWired: You took the words right out of my mouth. For those who may not have noticed, the core teachings of the Jedi Order have little to do with the neat tricks you can do with the Force. It has much more to do with being in control of yourself and your baser instincts than anything else. (Not to be confused with Vulcan culture, mind you.)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what the teachings of Christianity (among other faiths) encourage? For example, do they not teach their followers to control the overwhelming desire to procreate with multiple partners (i.e. abstinence and monogamy)? How about staying your hand when the urge to commit a violent act strikes, when all you'd really like to do is smack the crap out of someone? Or learning NOT to covet the property of others but, instead, to be glad for their good fortune when jealousy rears its ugly head? These are all examples of fighting your most basic of instincts in order to be a better person, and some of them *do* overlap with the religion you lot are currently belittling.
The wrapping paper may be different, but the stuff inside the box is awfully similar, if not identical, in nature. More food for thought.
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@SabyneWired: If I am not mistaken, Lucas studied a bunch of different religions when developing the Jedi teachings.
Jedi might not be officially recognized in the UK, but would you say a religion with more than half the number of followers of Hinduism shouldn't be official? Or how about 1/4 of the followers of Islam? Because that's how many people identify as Jedi in the UK.
If this were New Zealand, Jedi would beat out both Buddhism and Hinduism for its number of followers!
And no, I'm not playing Devil's Advocate. It pisses me off that just because a religion is new it's assumed fair game for discrimination, despite that in some places it has a bigger following than other major \"recognized\" worldwide religions.
@shepd: I'm not making any judgment here about whether or not Jedi should be recognized, nor am I supporting the discrimination of anyone based on any religion. Those would be personal moral choices and not what I am talking about.
All I'm pointing out is that it's not quite the same situation as the Muslim woman in the A&F case because Islam is a recognized religion and thus you cannot legally discriminate against someone based on their being Muslim. Because Jedi has no legal standing as a religion, it is not legally afforded those same protections.
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@utensil42: In the USA, it's not up to a government to recognize a religion. Congress shall make no law, and all that. As far as I know, the UK has similar laws on the books, though not quite so enshrined as the US Constitution; As long as the religion isn't out committing crimes, people have the right to their own religion. In fact, so many people have written-in \"Jedi\" on the UK's census forms, that it actually IS a recognized religion there now.
@Difdi: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Nothing in there about recognizing a religion, just establishing or prohibiting the free exercise. Big difference.
@utensil42: How does the government's opinion of a certain religion have anything to do with this? Are you saying that the only reason we shouldn't discriminate against Christians is because the government says so?
And from what I can tell about the Jedi religion is that they aren't claiming to be able to use Jedi force magic, they're just people who follow the sort of teachings you would expect from the Jedi. The fact that they united around a fictional story hardly means anything. There's really no proof that Jesus wasn't just a story that Christians used to spread their religion. I've heard people say the same thing about Buddha as well.
@korin43: @korin43: The original comment said \"those who feel that the Muslim lady is right to force Abercrombie and Fitch to let her wear her headgear while working there, I assume you 100% agree with the Jedi on this as well, yes?\"
I said \"yes\", if and only if Jedi is a recognized religion in the UK. The reason Jedi's legal status matters to this discussion is because otherwise it is not analogous to the A&F case. Islam is a legally recognized religion, therefore no one can legally discriminate against a Muslim on the grounds of their religion. If Islam were not a legally recognized religion, then that woman would have had no legal expectation to not be discriminated against on the basis of her religion.
As I said above, this has nothing to do with my personal religious beliefs or who I believe should or should not be discriminated against or why. For me, it's a straight up legal argument. If your religion is not legally recognized in the nation or state in which you live, you cannot have an expectation of equality under the law. I do not know for a fact where Jedi is or is not recognized, so cannot say whether it is protected under UK laws. I don't know why this is so hard for some to understand.
@utensil42: theres no such thing as \"recognized religions\". All religions are just mass held beliefs.
I asked a psychiatrist once what the clinical difference was between a religious belief that God will take you to heaven one day, and a delusion that aliens will take you to their ship one day.
He said \"They are basically the same, except so many people believe the first that it is accepted as a norm. As long as it does not pose a threat to themselves or others, or impair their daily functioning, it doesn't really matter clinically\"
@redkamel: Still, there achieves a point where a religion gains status where they can actually claim religious discrimination. The fact of the matter is, the court system probably won't uphold someone's accusation of religious discrimination if they're the church of themselves where they are the whole church.
That's sort of the whole lynch pin to this whole thing. Has the UK Church of Jedi achieved such a status where claims of religious discrimination can actually hold up in court? And then, what exactly is that bar? Is it number of people who partake in the religion? Tax-exempt status? A combination of the two? The number of politicians that the religious organization can pay off to make them official?
@Kogenta: That's what I'm wondering. Where exactly is the line drawn? If my friends and I decide to form a religion that deems it necessary to walk around topless at all times, could we go around accusing people of discrimination because of their \"no shirt no shoes no service\" policy?
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@shepd: I would still discriminate because the headwear the Muslim woman was wearing only covered her hair with her face clearly visible. The 'hood' the \"Jedi\" want to wear could easily be used to hide the face and conceal his identity, which was the whole issue of his being denied service.
Now if the lady in question was wearing a burka, I could see that being a parallel argument.
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@shepd: Do you then recognize my religion of Harodotry? I just made it yesterday. Don't ask for an official book yet, I'm still trying to get a publishing deal.
@shepd: no, it would not be hypocritical if you recognized Islam as a religion and Jedis as weirdos - they based their religion off a movie, now come on...
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You can base a religion of anything you want. We base ours on a mythological book. How is a book better than a movie? The principals hold the same.
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@Herbz:
Like SpruceStreetPhil says, Islam is based off a REALLY OLD book.
In 500 years, Jedism will be based off a REALLY OLD movie.
I suppose, like a fine wine, we just need to wait for it to mature, is that the difference between a cult and a religion?
Or is the difference that a cult does horrible things to those who try to leave or those who try to disparage it? Because that's what I was always taught. I'm pretty sure if you laugh at the Jedi they aren't going to produce false evidence that you're a child molester, you know, unlike the \"Church\" of Scientology.
@shepd: The really old book is presented by its followers as the truth. Star Wars is not. Seems pretty cut and dry. It doesn't matter that Jedi is based on other religions, it was produced a commentary.
Scientology is presented as truth. They are scum, but at least it is based on a mad man's idea of reality (or a con man's...), but George Lucas never presented Jedi as such.
If I'm wrong and George Lucas is a Jedi and says otherwise, my post is meaningless.
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Scientology is a religion.
Is it a particularly good religion? NO, not in my opionion.
Per \"Religion as a Cultural System\", 1973 by Clifford Geertz:
\"A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, God or gods, or ultimate truth.\"
The argument whether or not a particular religion is good or bad has no hold here. Even if a religion is \"bad\", it does not make it any less of a religion.
@Herbz: Scientology is a pyramid scheme to bilk money off of people who are desperate for meaning. In the words of L. Ron Hubbard \"If you wanna get rich, start a religion.\" Funnily enough he did that very thing a little while after saying it.
@Herbz: I know several Scientologists that are fairly high up their rungs of power. We have had several conversations regarding my distrust of the doctrine that Scientology pushes out to the masses.
Although they make several good points regarding self-improvement as one of their core teachings, when I point out to them the act of calling it a \"religion\" and \"church\", it goes against my Christian beliefs, they bring out the dictionary and start defining religion as you did in your above post.
When they do this, it sounds like they are trying to backpedal their own beliefs by making it sound like something it is not.
@Herbz: century old religions shouldn't be compared to cults like scientology and the jedi church...
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@SpruceStreetPhil: haahaha
OK in 1000-2000 years we can take these jedi serious but not now? So 1000-2000 years ago when your religion started you would not have taken IT seriously? WOW you're a hypocrite.
I'd say...just because something is old doesn't make it better. Otherwise we'd still think the universe spins around the earth, and the Earth is flat, etc.
@SpruceStreetPhil: Well, you have to admit, all those religions had to start somewhere...
But is the Jedi Church a church for Jedi, or is it a church for people who like to imitate the Jedi but have no actual force powers themselves? Because you'd think in a universe where Jedi and their allies are being ruthlessly hunted down in a shoot first ask questions later fashion, they might want to be a little more inconspicuous.
@Kogenta: that's my main concern with it. Its a \"club\" or group of people that want to think they're cool by dressing like characters of a series of movies that had special powers. If they did actually have these special powers then cool, let them make a church. But they're NOT Jedi. You can't claim to be a Jedi and not be able to at least pick up an effing tissue box without using anything but your mind. And they can't. And if they want to prove me wrong, then they can come over here and force choke the crap out of me. I dare them.
@SpruceStreetPhil: But every religious group I know of lays claim to a bunch of special powers that can not be produced on demand... I think making outrageous and unverifiable claims might make them a legitimate religion...
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@SpruceStreetPhil: Frankly, religions based on movies are no different than those based on books. Dressing in Jedi garb is no different than dressing in Muslim garb.
Plus, to my knowledge, nobody of other religions has any special powers either. What makes older religions more established? The fact that they've had more time to recruit members? How is the idea of \"moving things with one's mind\" any more or less valid than the idea of walking on water? It's no less ludicrous to be dedicated to a movie over a book.
Don't take this as an \"anti-religion\" post; it's surely not. I just find the concept of organized religion to be fundamentally flawed. People are arguing the minute details of the same exact point. It's possible to be plenty \"spiritual,\" like myself, without getting caught up in all the hype over which book/movie/general idea is \"less right\" than the others.
@supercereal: Because I don't claim to be Jesus, the one Im guessing you're referring to as \"walking on water.\" They are claiming to be Jedi, one's connected to the force, with powers capable of manipulating things with their mind. I can claim to be a wookie all I want, I can go to a Wookie Church, but when it comes down to it, I am never a wookie. I can claim to follow Jesus or Muhammad all I want, but when I comes down to it, I'm a follower of Jesus or Muhammad and never actually claimed to be them.
Do they truly believe to have Jedi powers? I doubt it. The point of the Jedi religion is probably to imitate the lifestyle and values of the Jedi - the Jedi code of living, if you will. That is not all that much different from what the followers of most other organized religions are doing - for instance, Christianity teaches that man was created in God's image. Thus, you strive to be as close to that image by following the values set forth by The Bible.
I'm not a religious person, but I would prefer the Jedi religion to any of the major organized religions any day. At least no one has yet to die in the name of The Force.
@SpruceStreetPhil: LOL (literally) are you kidding? every religious person I know says:
God is watching ME
I speak to God
God listens to me
My prayers make a difference
My sins are washed, I will go to heaven
I feel the power of Jesus in me
etc etc ad nauseum
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@SpruceStreetPhil: The teachings of the Jedi were developed a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away... making it older than Islam or any other religion on Earth.
\"Century old religions\" were once cults as well. Just because they are older does not make them any better.
I don't want this to devolve into a \"religion flamewar\", and I personally don't approve of any organized religion, especially ones like Scientology, but just because its based off a movie doesn't make it any less of a religion.
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@tonalanswer: and what i mean by that is that the very argument being made can only have a purpose of starting a flamewar. nobody would write that without knowing what would happen.
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When you follow Jedi and die, where do you go, Skywalker Ranch?
@RandomHookup: You obviously become one with the force.
@RandomHookup: Bad Jedi definitely go to Hoth.