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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

August 26, 2009 4:52 PM

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this same thing has happened to me. There are two books I need to buy and I went to the store and wrote down the ISBN numbers. Neither of which come up on Chegg.com or on Amazon. I *think* I know which books they are, but I can't be sure of the version to buy so I have to wait till I have online access to my classes. Frustrating!

2 replies

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August 27, 2009 12:27 AM

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@Oranges w/ Cheese in rainy Central FL:

One of my classes had a bundle, and the class didn't even use all components!

I bought a bundle, used, and the individual components were listed on the packing list. Since the book store sold me completely crappy beat up used books, I returned them and got new ones online for much less. I also only bought what was \"necessary\" and I didn't even open two of the three books I did buy!

I could only imagine the bookstore clucking their tongues as I try to sell them those books in the same condition as they were sold to me.

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sleze69

August 26, 2009 9:22 PM

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@Oranges w/ Cheese in rainy Central FL: You should definately speak with the teachers of each class. I found that most of the teachers I spoke with back in school hated the fact that the books were so expensive.

If your teacher refuses to give you that type of textbook info, do you really want that person to have control of your grades?

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kylere

August 26, 2009 4:53 PM

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Textbook publishers should be up for the worst company in America award under their own category. Perhaps \"Bottom Feeding Losers\" would be a good place.

9 replies

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lmarconi

August 27, 2009 3:55 AM

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@kylere:
So I know many will disagree with this pov, but if Obama really wanted to do something to help the cost of higher education in this country, he would support gov. regulation of the textbook industry. Ted Kennedy supported this idea before his death.
Few tips for other students that I've used to fight these textbook industry parasites. Go to the bookstore and actually check the ISBN numbers, then order on half.com or amazon.com. Definitely email your professor before the class. If there's a bundle, ask if they know the ISBN numbers. If the class supposedly requires a new edition, ask if the old edition is acceptable. Most professors will just give you an old syllabus, a lot of times they're not the ones who ask for the new edition.
If the professor uses their own book to teach the class, and most likely it's not available everywhere, they totally suck, but you're not out of luck. Check your school library, they probably have a bunch of copies of the book since it was written by a professor and some libraries have systems so you can take out a book for a really long amount of time as long as you renew it or fill out a special form. Good luck! The best way to hit these jerks in the wallet where it hurts is to circumvent their bullying whenever possible!

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August 27, 2009 1:19 PM

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@lmarconi: Well, he did support Durbin's bill that is now law...

[durbin.senate.gov]

...it's a sticky issue to legislate because of academic freedom. Regulating PRICES is one thing, but different textbooks approach the subject from different perspectives and with different content. You can't just tell a prof what they have to teach with.

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bbb111

August 27, 2009 4:39 AM

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@lmarconi: @mac-phisto:

I can beat the stories for the nicest professor. He used his own book (It was considered the best one in the field.) On the first day of class he announced that it was currently out of print, but we could get a photocopy of the book at his office. I went to get it and found out that he was giving them out for free! Not even a photocopy charge for a 500 page book!

On the other hand, in 1983 I paid $150 for a 180 page thermodynamics book that was almost unintelligible and never used again for the class (so I couldn't even sell it).

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August 27, 2009 2:52 AM

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@kylere: The packets aren't even the biggest racket. The one that is INSANE is the e-book racket. I teach a course where the students are asked to purchase a text and a spiral workbook (separately or shrink-wrapped). Typically the text could be sold back and purchased used (new $80, used $40ish), but each student had to have their own spiral workbook (cost = $20). This year \"to reduce costs for the students\" the publisher released and e-book. For $70, students purchase an access code to get to their book online. The access code is only available at our bookstore book can ONLY be viewed online, and the codes expire after 6 months - meaning no resales and if a kid has to re-take the class the have to pay full price again. We were told to \"not allow\" students to share or use older editions (the e-book features a roster so you know which students have purchased it).

So, according to the publisher, students are saving $10 each. When I pointed out to the publisher rep that I could get the old edition online for $10 and how does a $70 access code save me money, he sniffed and said, \"it's beneficial to everyone, even the publisher.\"

Yup, that's the future of textbooks. Full price, no used copies, no library copies and they delete after 6 months.

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Wren11

August 26, 2009 7:51 PM

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@kylere: You know, there are textbook publishers out there who just want to create decent academic books with no tricks. I work for a small independent textbook publisher who tries to price our books as low as possible and helping the authors get their hard work out there. We try to be nice, we try to be fair, and we try to help people learn. But I guess that makes us worse than Citi, BestBuy, etc.

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HungryTuna

August 26, 2009 5:03 PM

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Don't professors share some of the blame? I've had professors who were very conscience of the costs of books and who sought out cheap titles.

I've had other professors who listed multiple textbooks as requirements (some of the textbooks later turned out to be optional and were never used)

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August 26, 2009 8:19 PM

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@HungryTuna: yes.

@anonymousryan: i can beat that. one of my polisci profs wrote a hardcover textbook on american politics that he re-published every semester with a new edition number so that you 1) could only find it at the 2 bookstores in town b/c it was so new & 2) couldn't sell it back at the end of the semester.

what was the difference between editions? he would reorder the chapters & the questions at the end of the chapters so that you couldn't do graded homework assignments or in-class quizzes (that required looking up specific pages in the book) without the most recent edition.

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August 26, 2009 9:33 PM

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@mac-phisto: Got a class by the dean of the school - SEVENTEEN books that were all either authored or co-authored by her. Thankfully none were real \"textbooks\" (but all hardcover) so none cost more than $25... plus she was an excellent author.

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calquist

August 26, 2009 8:10 PM

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@HungryTuna: When I worked at the campus bookstore, some professors would also take forever to inform the bookstore what texts they would even be using. Sometimes ordering books at the very last minute before classes would result in higher prices for the bookstore as well.

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August 26, 2009 5:40 PM

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@HungryTuna: The worst I had was a professor who required we buy an $80 ~150pg paperback book. Here's the kicker, he co-authored it.

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August 28, 2009 5:37 PM

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@anonymousryan:

He's pond scum!

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August 26, 2009 6:17 PM

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@anonymousryan: That's not the worst, that's common. In college tons of professors write their own teaching material and then force you to buy it at 100 bucks a pop. It's a great con.. D:

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August 26, 2009 7:26 PM

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@Span_Wolf: Years ago I was forced to buy a paperback textbook written by the prof. for a Logic and Critical Thinking class I was taking. The book began falling apart during the semester as though it was trying to commit harakiri. And I do take care of my books. In fact, the prof's copy was held together by duct tape. That should have been embarrassing to him, but apparently it wasn't. *sigh*

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August 26, 2009 4:54 PM

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I Sincerely hope professors boycott this practice with extreme prejudice.

12 replies

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nogami

August 27, 2009 12:25 AM

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@lpranal: As a prof, I will never require a student to purchase a textbook from a publisher that uses this system.

I usually tell my students not to purchase texts until the second or third week of class so they can decide what they need (it helps that most of our courses are taught using our own materials, with the texts only used for additional study).

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Raekwon

August 26, 2009 6:06 PM

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@lpranal: Whilst most of my professors wrote the books or had financial interest in selling books I did have one professor who fought against it. He wrote his own book but refused to use any of the publishers. Instead he had a local printer print the book and sell it at cost. There is hope but it often gets smothered by greed.

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kaceetheconsumer

August 26, 2009 6:02 PM

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@lpranal: Not all have the power to do much, especially those still awaiting tenure approval.

I'd point more fingers at Deans and other administrators before going after the profs. Both my husband, who used to be a math professor, and profs I had in my uni days were appalled at some of these shenanigans, but were powerless to do much about it when they were under edicts by administrators.

I did have one prof who was a total asshat and was out to sell his self-published book, but I had way more who would groan and mutter about being forced to require new editions...and then some of them would say, \"Look, go get last year's and we'll make it work.\"

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nova3930

August 26, 2009 5:53 PM

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@lpranal: Professors won't boycott anything. Most of the time they have a vested interest.

In college there was nothing I hated more than having a professor who required you to buy the textbook that he wrote. Kinda seemed like a conflict of interest to me...

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pecan 3.14159265

August 26, 2009 5:57 PM

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@nova3930: A lot of my profs specifically wrote books for their classes because they either didn't like what was on the market, there was nothing like it on the market, or they just wanted to write a book. In most cases, though, the books were not outrageously priced and if you truly could not afford it, the professors would have a stash that they'd lend out to students.

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MoreFunThanToast

August 26, 2009 6:09 PM

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@pecan 3.14159265: Exactly, I took a media violence class in college and the required reading was written by the professor. The book was $12 new and was actually interesting to read. If you didn't want to buy a copy, the professor had extras he'd lend to students.

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Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!)

August 26, 2009 5:15 PM

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@lpranal: At the school I'm at, most of us do our best (we're a CC and acutely aware of the financial constraints of our student body), but there are a few things working against us --

We have standardized curricula across departments, so I get no choice in textbook. I teach philosophy, and in the intro class, NONE of the readings we use is under copyright. I've been pushing for years to use Project Gutenberg as an alternative, or to set up lulu.com printed books of Gutenberg texts for students who want a printed version (for $10 or whatever), but we persist in getting the $40 \"readings\" book, because the older members of the department are suspicious of \"creative commons\" and \"out of copyright\" and \"lulu.com.\" (And, yeah, there would be students who couldn't be arsed to get texts if they weren't in the textbook, no matter how much they bitch about the cost of said textbook.)

But the bigger issue is that publishers will punish our bookstore if we don't abide by their restrictions. For example, they are not allowed to stock old editions of texts (new or used) once new ones come out. The changes in the philosophy texts are typically fairly minimal and we're all fine with using two editions (old and new) side by side. But if bookstore buys back used books of the prior edition and resells them once the new one is out, they are punished and the publisher won't sell the highly-necessary new chemistry textbook to them.

They also force us to take the bundles whether we want them or not. I try to let students know what they need and don't need if they can find things used, but it's not always easy to find the used stuff.

It's such a freaking waste of paper, too. It really bothers me.

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sponica

August 26, 2009 6:46 PM

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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): my psych profs were always adamant (well more often than not) \"DON'T BUY THE NEW EDITION IF YOU DON'T HAVE TO!\" and would provide the title, edition of the book (as they are usually available separately). The only time I bought the bundles were when the prof said \"QUIZ/TEST QUESTIONS/HOMEWORK WILL COME FROM THE STUDY GUIDE\"

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johnva

August 26, 2009 5:19 PM

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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): It seems to me like some of that stuff should be regulated, if they're pressuring the book outlets in that way.

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tangent4

August 26, 2009 5:06 PM

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@lpranal: Keep in mind that many professors write textbooks - they benefit when more students buy new copies.

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Xay

August 26, 2009 5:22 PM

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@tangent4: Professors get tiny royalty checks from textbooks.

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August 26, 2009 5:49 PM

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@johnva: Yeah right, like congress will ever make that happen. There's just too much money in the textbook racket.

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Vandelay Import Export

August 26, 2009 4:57 PM

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@lpranal: Well it isn't like the have a financial interest in it or anything.

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johnva

August 26, 2009 5:13 PM

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@Vandelay Import Export: Most professors don't have a financial interest in the book they're using, so I don't know what your \"point\" is. A few might, but not often if they're using the standard text for their subject.

I've found that most professors these days DO try to help the students not get ripped off. Many are doing things like specifically allowing the use of an older edition, etc so that students can find it in the used market. Some schools have also taken to specifically listing the books required for a course online in a centralized place a month or so ahead of time, so that people can buy them someplace other than the campus book store more easily. Not all schools are engaged in ripoff practices.

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teh

August 26, 2009 5:49 PM

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@johnva: When I teach courses, I make sure to emphasize that older versions of the textbook are acceptable. I remember what it was like as a student buying $600 in books -- it's ridiculous.

I do like the suggestion to talk to the prof -- we aren't always aware what the bookstore stocks.

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rugman11

August 26, 2009 5:20 PM

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@johnva: My econ class is using a book right now from flatworldknowledge.com. The text is available to view online for free. You can print your own copy for $35 or $2 per chapter and if you want a bound copy of your own it's only $60, which isn't bad. Most professors are aware of what their students are having to spend and are doing what they can to help.

Textbook prices are the main reason I'm glad I spent so much time as a history major. I'm fine spending $300 bucks on books, so long as I get 20 books out of the deal.

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tbax929

August 26, 2009 7:38 PM

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@rugman11:
As an English major, I had that benefit as well. The only books that were really expensive were the anthologies. However, most of my professors didn't care if we bought the anthologies. They'd tell us which works we were going to cover, and we could get them through any means we wanted.

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August 27, 2009 2:44 PM

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@tbax929: English major too. Most of the profs I had did the same thing. If they used annotated editions and used that material, they or someone would usually copy it for you. I had several classes which used classics like \"Frankenstein\" which I already had, and didn't have to buy the book at all.

And you better believe I held on to my expensive anthologies. Even if you barely cracked it open, the bookstores only give a fraction of the cost if you sell it back.

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Raekwon

August 26, 2009 4:57 PM

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One of the worst practices was in my Econ 101 class that pretty much every major requires as a gen ed type course. The hard bound textbook contains perforated \"workbook\" pages in the back that serve as homework. All professors who use this book are required to force their students to tear out the pages and hand them in. Photocopies and the like are expressly forbidden. This completely kills the used textbook market for this title and also kills lots of trees I'd imagine.

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jimv2000

August 26, 2009 5:56 PM

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@Raekwon: I'd photocopy the homework and turn it in, and if the professor refused to accept it, I'd challenge it with the administration. I don't think that it's even legal to claim that you can't make a photocopy of a page for non-commercial purposes.

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Raekwon

August 26, 2009 6:01 PM

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@jimv2000: Students have tried it and lost. I was near graduation at that point so I didn't care anymore and just wanted to get done. And required and expressly forbidden was from the professors. They all colluded to do this and as always one of the professors is the author of the book.

Like I said I'm sure someone could attempt to fight the system and see where it goes. I was done with it all so I didn't care. Just sharing this as an example of what professors and textbook publishers do to milk you dry.

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August 26, 2009 7:39 PM

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@Raekwon: Tenure is latin for bite this.

Even if the school's administration won't do anything about it, this sounds like the perfect use of a crusader press. Quick, someone pass this along to Ric Romero before the November sweeps!

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treimel

August 26, 2009 6:28 PM

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Ah, the profs themselves--that's just rotten.

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treimel

August 26, 2009 5:16 PM

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\"Required\" by whom? \"expressly forbidden\" by who or what?
Sorry, but the profs are absolutely to blame. The student owners of each copy of the book absolutely CAN, under US copyright law, make single photocopies of individual pages for just such an educational use.

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August 26, 2009 4:58 PM

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Do publishers try to defend this?

2 replies

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yasth

August 26, 2009 6:35 PM

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@futuresuperbowlMVPJayCutler: It simplifies the students text book buying (grab one thing and go), simplifies stocking issues for book stores (no more excess optional titles), and provides discounts off of list (5% or so is common).

That said it is still evil, because, really, if you can't pick up three books from the store you don't deserve to be taking a class, and list price is a joke.

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jimv2000

August 26, 2009 5:58 PM

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@futuresuperbowlMVPJayCutler: I think that they just hope no one will notice. It's their own damn fault anyway, when they're trying to gouge students by charging $150 for a book that is shittier than one on the same topic you could get for yourself on Amazon for $40. (For example, I took a networking class and the text book was $130 and much less useful/informative than the Network+ exam book for $40.)

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rugman11

August 26, 2009 4:58 PM

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\"Contact the faculty member?\" But that would require, like, talking to an actual person. But seriously, I hate textbook packets, too. And please don't bitch at your librarian for not having your textbook. I'm sorry we didn't purchase the 10th edition of your quantitative analysis book that's been published in the last 15 years. We have better things to buy.

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treimel

August 26, 2009 5:17 PM

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So do the students, unfortunately they don't have millions of dollars in acquisition budgets.

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rugman11

August 26, 2009 5:31 PM

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@treimel: \"Millions of dollars in acquisition budgets.\"

HA! I'm the Head of Collection Development at a university with ~6,000 students. Our book acquisitions budget is roughly $163,000 for the entire school. There is no way we could justify buying textbooks. If we buy for one class, why don't we buy for every class? If we buy one copy, why not 25? What's the use in having one copy of a textbook for a class with 25, 50, or 100 people in it? Why buy a textbook when a new edition is going to be published in two years anyway, rendering the old one obsolete? There are a hundred reasons for a library to not purchase textbooks and only one reason to do it: because the students don't want to spend their own money. That's a pretty lame reason.

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August 27, 2009 2:46 PM

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@rugman11: My university didn't buy them either. They told me that even if they could afford them, they simply just don't have the space. The amount of books they would have to get would be ridiculous.

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August 26, 2009 5:45 PM

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@rugman11: I'm happy to see there are other librarians here. And no, I won't mention my acquisitions budget because it is low enough to make me cry.

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treimel

August 26, 2009 6:08 PM

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@SarcasticDwarf:

Oh, also--I want to make clear, I'm not against college libraries, librarians or their staff. On the contary, college libraries are, in my experience, nothing short of amazing. I also know that, as currently set up, there is no realistic way for university libraries to really be asource of the texts for their undergrad population. I'm simply angry at the textbook racket as it often plays out in American colleges, and I /do/ think that in time, libraries could play a role in a more open-source method of getting course materials to students.

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treimel

August 26, 2009 5:43 PM

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No, that's the best reason-the whole point of a library is the availability and diffusion of knowledge to those who could otherwise not afford it. Yes, why not 25? And this 2-year old \"obsolete\" textbook thing woukld go away quickly if publishers couldn't get away with it.

Also, your budget is not terribly representative as an entire student body of 6,000 is very small.

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rugman11

August 26, 2009 6:13 PM

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@treimel: I don't think you understand the math involved here. Buying a copy of the stats textbook I'm currently using for each student in the class (25) would cost more than my entire budget for math. And that's just one class out of 29 (not counting multiple sections). The math just doesn't work. I have to buy materials to support faculty research, grad student research, undergrad student research, media resources. All of these take precedence over textbooks. The economics of the situation just don't work.

And you'll find other institutions will be similar. We may be smaller but we offer fewer classes. A larger institution may have a bigger budget, but they have more faculty, students, and classes to purchase materials for.

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treimel

August 26, 2009 6:22 PM

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Did you actually read my later post, though? \"I know there is no realistic way ... for libraries to be a source of the texts...\"

What I'd really like to see is a system where universities go to a more open-source model. There is simply no reason that I (or anyone else) should be shelling out dollars for Plato, Kant, and Carroll when those works aren't copyrighted. Similarly, no-one should be held up for ransom over the fundamental theorem of calculus, or any of the other million examples of things that, publishers be dammned, just don't change. Of course, some materials will have to be bought and paid for under a ull-blown copyright model, but for much of undergrad, it's just a silly sysytem, where students continually pay publishers big bucks to kill trees for works long out of copyright. It simply seems to me that when and if there is a pdf./kindle-type revolution for these kinds of materials, a library is a natural fit for distribution.

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rugman11

August 26, 2009 7:13 PM

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@treimel: You put up your second post while I was writing mine. I do agree with you re: open source. The movement is growing. I mentioned in a different thread that my economics professors are using a textbook this semester that is freely accessible online. You have to pay for a paper copy, but if you want to just read the text you can do so for free.

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treimel

August 26, 2009 5:49 PM

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Wow--really, really small:

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August 26, 2009 6:51 PM

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@treimel: No, 6000 is considered medium-sized--you're seeing that there are universities with quite a lot more, but you're not seeing that there are plenty with the same amount or fewer. Here's another table from that same site (which is a cool site that I didn't know about--thanks!): [nces.ed.gov]

The plurality of secondary institutions have between 1000 and 2499 students; the number of institutions with a student enrollment over 5000 is approximately a third of the number of institutions with enrollment under.

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treimel

August 26, 2009 7:13 PM

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@floraposte:
No, 6,000 is (for the thing I'm looking at) small--stats are a funny thing; I'm not looking at schools, I'm looking at students. I'm not suggesting it's small as schools go--I'm suggesting it's small as far as the typical experience for the american /student/.
Looked at from that perspective, most students' experience will be at a larger school--not because there are more of them (although I was surprised at the number of largschools) but ptrecisely because there enrollments are so large. By only looking at the number of schools, and not their enrollments, you're skewing the results badly. look at (for example) the enrollment of the smallest 1,747 schools combined, now look at the largest 56 schools. Who has more students? the top 56. By triple.
The majority of students go to a school of greater than 10,000 enrollment. The largest single student poulation is in schools of between 10 and 20,000 students.

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August 26, 2009 8:11 PM

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@treimel: Sounds like we're just looking at it different ways, then. However, there are enough institutions facing the situation rugman describes that I think it's worth noting his experience.

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morlo

August 26, 2009 5:04 PM

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@rugman11: Like a 1853 set of the Complete Works of Goethe translated into French!

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August 26, 2009 4:58 PM

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Reading articles like this makes me so happy that I was fortunate enough to have professors who made up their own printouts. You came to class, got the printout, took notes, and everything for the exams was either on those sheets of paper or in your own notes.

There are some professors I know who have written their own textbooks and use a self-publisher of some kind to get them to the students. That's worked out well for all involved, because the dept. heads considered that \"good enough\" to count as publishing and the students got a textbook for a fraction of the usual cost. (Can't sell them back at the end of the semester, but if you've only paid $10 or so for it in the first place, who cares?)

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Tiber

August 26, 2009 11:58 PM

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@demitasse: I went to a trade school where everything was wrapped up in the cost of tuition. A week before the next class started, you told them the class and signed your name, and they just gave you the books you needed.

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ludwigk

August 26, 2009 6:35 PM

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@demitasse: I had a prof who was writing a text on Applied Quantum Mechanics, and we each received a binder with the course material for free.

My Intro to Algebraic Topology prof had also written the text we used, although it was published by Dover press, which has reasonable prices around $30 new. The books are paperback and ugly as hell, but knowledge is knowledge.

My Torts prof had us purchase a print-out of her manuscript from the bookstore for her class. At ~$30, that is a total steal compared to the $175 that each of my other casebooks cost.

But in general, I paid $400-600/semester in undergrad for mostly used textbooks, and I just spent $1000 for mostly new books this semester. Viva la academia!

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Vandelay Import Export

August 26, 2009 5:01 PM

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I take it most schools get some sort of kickback from this so they can add to the money they make from renting substandard housing and serving food you wouldn't give a dog.

6 replies

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sponica

August 27, 2009 11:22 PM

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@Vandelay Import Export: what school did you go to that had \"substandard\" housing? perhaps it's a reflection of the times and locales...but my dorms were a zillion times better than ANY of my apartments, especially because they had FREE laundry. although the food, i wouldn't touch that with a 60 and a half foot pole.

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Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!)

August 26, 2009 5:17 PM

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@Vandelay Import Export: Nope. Although they do ship us the wrong desk copies constantly!

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August 26, 2009 8:27 PM

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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): Do the textbook companies offer to do major print jobs for the university at a reduced cost?

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August 26, 2009 5:14 PM

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@Vandelay Import Export: No, they don't. I worked at the bookstore for a semester when I was in school and it was actually a registered non-profit organization. It's just the publishers who are making the money.

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August 27, 2009 1:13 AM

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@dulcinea47: quite frankly, being a \"registered non-profit\" means dill. the NFL is a 501(c) non-profit organization & they have billions of dollars/year in revenue.

it's really amazing what you can do with the tax code to save a few bucks...

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Vandelay Import Export

August 26, 2009 9:39 PM

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@dulcinea47: Most (if not all) of the college book stores I have encountered were some sort of thinly disguised subsidiary of Barnes & Noble that had an exclusive agreement with the school.

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August 26, 2009 5:01 PM

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damn! its like DRM for books!

1 replies

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August 26, 2009 5:40 PM

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@Swizzler121: Thats the best comment on this post!

Thats exactly what it is, people will find a way around it too.

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ams199

August 26, 2009 5:01 PM

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The worst experience with this I had as a college student, 10 years ago or so, was with a PROFESSOR who used his class as guinea pigs for his as-yet-unpublished textbook... which he required us to buy from the bookstore as a spiral-bound, photocopied \"packet\"... which cost over $100.

And naturally, it could not be re-sold at the end of the semester. Even worse, since he had rushed to get it finished before class started, it was full of grammar and spelling errors - which may have been by design, so he could use us as free editors too.

So wrong. But I would have killed to have online options like Half and the huge number of other resellers back in college, instead of having to settle for whatever the on-campus store deigned to offer.

10 replies

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August 27, 2009 2:51 PM

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@ams199: @Syncop8d1: Christ. There are a ton of editing books/sites out there. Use one of them if you're going to write a book and you don't know how to edit, profs!

It strains their credibility when their material is riddled with errors.

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August 26, 2009 9:40 PM

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@ams199: I had a soc. prof who was writing a book on urban nightlife... our paper assignment for the class was on urban nightlife. o.O?

On the other hand, he did let me turn it in late so I could go to a concert I wanted to see and write the paper on that.

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Raekwon

August 26, 2009 6:03 PM

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@ams199: I had a Calc book that was in a similar \"trial\" run. It was hardbound so it cost more and it could not be sold back either because a revised edition came out the next semester. It was full of errors, impossible example problems, and was missing pages and data throughout.

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August 26, 2009 7:39 PM

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@Raekwon: Yeah I hear ya. But wasn't the process of ferreting out all these errors helpful in your learning process? No? hmm

Well this reminds me of a stats book I used in 2001 which had all sorts of mistakes. The book's author (a prof from Baylor in Waco, TX) put up a webpage with all the corrections for his mistakes. However, I didn't know about this site until after spending a half hour trying to work one problem only to realize that the problem was impossible due to typographical errors. When I showed the prof. she was confused too. That is when I concluded that this book wasn't to be trusted. I never sold this book back, because it has too many editorial marks in it so I feel weirdly \"invested\" in it somehow. I sure hope the next edition was better.

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P=mv

August 26, 2009 5:16 PM

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@ams199: I had an advertising professor who wrote his own book. The thing was over $200 and was useless. At the start of the semester he informed us that 10% of our grade was simply whether or not we had his book on us on random days throughout the semester. I am still convinced he just wanted to be sure he would get his money.

I bought the international version for $25 and dared him to take points off. His boss sided with me on the matter.

College textbooks are a racket and often not useful at all. Buy used, earlier versions, or international. Your bank account will thank you and you won't miss out on anything.

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August 26, 2009 5:51 PM

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@AshCatScram: That seems like a highly unethical thing to base a grade on.

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ElizabethD

August 26, 2009 5:15 PM

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That racket would have sent me straight to the dean of faculty or provost. It's immoral, discriminatory, and saturated with nothing but self-interest. Professors aren't gods, kids. You can appeal higher on the food chain when they try to pull something like this.

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August 27, 2009 4:04 AM

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@ElizabethD: this is great in theory, but speaking from experience, going head-to-head against a prof on a possible ethics issue sometimes doesn't work out well for the student.

i'm not suggesting you roll over - i certainly didn't. just be prepared to face the possibility that things might not work out in your favor, even if you're right.

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August 26, 2009 5:08 PM

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@ams199: I had an instructor who had us use a book he had written, but had a written letter from the publisher that any copies sold through the school bookstore would not net him a kickback, so his students didn't feel he was forcing us to use his book so he could profit from us more than he already was through our regular tuition.

Pretty cool guy.

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Rat_Race

August 26, 2009 5:07 PM

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@ams199: Had a class where we were told to get her learning packet for the class, cost about $15. The next time we showed up to class, she had stop teaching over the weekend, and we got a replacement. The running joke for some was our first teacher retired on the money she made from her own packets that we couldn't return to the bookstore.

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August 26, 2009 5:03 PM

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My advice is this: simply wait a week or two to see if you even need the book(s) to begin with.

Towards the end of my stint in college, I didn't buy most books until a couple weeks into the semester, simply telling my instructors I bought them on Amazon or something and the free super saver shipping was just taking forever, if they even asked. When I figureed out if I needed the book or not, I would simply buy it from the school store or pay a bit extra for speedy shipping on Amazon to get it cheaper.

I did this for one simple reason: I got tired of instructors who made me buy an $80 text book for their class, only to include EVERYTHING I need in their class notes, making the book simply a professionally printed version of their class content.

I got through a film and literature course this way. 10 required reading books, and I didn't buy a single one because I got everything I needed from her lecture and class notes. Why waste hours of my time each night reading a book I won't care about after the semester, when I can just pay attention for 2 hours 2 days a week and get everything?

Did the same thing with my biology class, opting to use Wikipedia and Google instead of the textbook. Saved myself $90 that way. The book store ended up buying back only 30 copies of the book at $20 each, and with over 150 students in Biology 101 classes that semester alone, well, let's just say I felt great not having to voraciously sell my book back.

Risky, but if you're confident in your Internet searching skills and your ability to be resourceful in a pinch, you can save a lot of money doing it this way.

11 replies

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ludwigk

August 26, 2009 6:41 PM

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@ModernTenshi04: I think this only works for survey and relatively easy courses, as I could not have survived without the texts in most of my classes. A lot of the material is NOT out there still, and definitely wasn't at all available 10 years ago when I went to school. I did use Eric Weisstein's \"World of ____\" sites to supplement some of my course material, but the books were essential for my classes.

In my coursework, lectures could not possibly cover all the relevant material, and hard science courses (by which I mean biology is essentially \"soft\" by comparison) are much more self-driven.

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August 27, 2009 3:29 AM

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@ludwigk:
I went to school close 10 years ago and averaged purchasing only half of the required books. For classes that had homework (sciences mostly) I would buy a book. Most professors, as the cliché goes, love to hear their own voice -- so as such I took great notes. It is the best way to save money -- namely not purchasing the book when not necessary.

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August 26, 2009 7:53 PM

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@ludwigk: Well yeah, you're going to learn which classes you can do this sort of thing with and which ones you can't. I would agree that most of your major classes that are more specified and less general you would benefit from the book, and that the core classes you could get away with not buying a single book.

The point is to save money where you can by not buying books you won't need and/or won't care about once the course is done.

Your point about it not being out there 10 years ago isn't really effective in refuting points of my argument, though. 10 years ago the Internet was still a growing medium and lacked many of the resources we have today, or ones we have today that existed back then paled in comparison to what they are today. So yeah, obviously a decade or more ago something like my plan wouldn't have worked out. You're also talking about a period of time where college was quite a bit cheaper than it is today, and no, I'm not just talking about inflation or anything.

The point I was getting is that for a LOT of things, the information is out there, freely available and just as good as what's in an overpriced and published text book. Learn what you can get on-line for free, and you'll benefit financially in the long run.

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TheNerd

August 26, 2009 5:54 PM

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@ModernTenshi04: Online students have an extra obstacle to this: online student code. My instructor required us buy the NEW book that comes bundled with the online code. The code is the only thing which enables us to turn in assignments. It's basically buy the bundle or fail the class.

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August 27, 2009 2:58 PM

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@TheNerd: I had to spend a buttload of money for a Foliotek access (online portfolio) when I started grad school. It was good for four years but I hardly ever posted anything because not all the instructors required it. Also, I quit school to write so it's no good now anyway.

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August 26, 2009 7:24 PM

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This.

I had to deal with this for my Spanish class. I *thought* I was saving money by buying my book on Amazon...turns out I needed the online access in order to do my homework. I was NOT amused at having to shell out another $95 for the online access code. The only silver lining to this is that the same materials are used for the next level Spanish class and the code is good for 18 months.

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August 27, 2009 3:30 AM

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@dragoncat42:
No bueno !

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mizike

August 26, 2009 5:39 PM

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@ModernTenshi04: I totally agree. It's a great idea to wait a bit and see if you'll actually use the book before spending $100+ on something that might turn out to be an expensive paperweight. I was always shocked at the number of people who would show up the first day with the book without getting any sense of whether the prof. would actually be using it or not. I actually found this more true in law school than I did in my undergrad. Buy the Criminal Code? No thanks, I'll just download it for free from the government's website and have a copy shop print and bind it for me (on recycled paper) for $15. Buy a book comprised 100% of publically available cases (with no commentary or analysis) almost all of which I can find online with my free (as a law student) lexisnexis access? Craziness!

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ludwigk

August 26, 2009 6:45 PM

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@mizike: This is what I'm thinking about right now (purely as a thought experiment). Much of the information we're required to purchase is public record, or available via lexis/westlaw. My lexis search skills are still crap, so I wouldn't rely on them to replace my materials just yet. Plus, my casebooks have very focused cuts which eliminate a lot of reading over just straight cases. I don't have the analytical skills or time yet to slog through un-cut materials. For now, I'm definitely sticking w/ the prescribed materials, as the time savings alone are completely worth it. I can see with a certain course load, and possibly for a 2L or 3L using search resources instead of texts.

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August 26, 2009 5:53 PM

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@mizike: Makes complete sense. That's why I used on-line resources for my biology class. Any information I can find in a text book for a 100 level general course can easily be found on the Internet as well.

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August 26, 2009 5:09 PM

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@ModernTenshi04: @ModernTenshi04:
I started doing the same thing, or at the very least, sometimes I would buy the book and just make sure I didn't open it (if it was wrapped in plastic). If it turned out I wasn't going to need it, I'd just return it.

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August 26, 2009 5:52 PM

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@chocolate1234: My school bookstore only allowed returns within a few days of purchase, and I think sometimes only if you dropped the course.

Otherwise you were SOL.

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sn1per

August 26, 2009 5:07 PM

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I actually had a class last year where the newer editions of the textbooks only came as \"binder books,\" which is basically a shrink-wrapped set of hole-punched pages. They charge just as much for the book as if it was a bound copy, but it's much easier to lose pages and have pages drop out of the binder when your textbook is just hole-punched looseleaf.

4 replies

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DH405

August 26, 2009 5:50 PM

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@sn1per: That does, however, make it easy to unbind, scan, rebind, and return the book. If they want to play games, they have to be prepared to be on the losing side now and then.

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August 26, 2009 8:17 PM

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@DH405: With the hole-punched pseduo-book I had, they put it in a box and then shrink-wrapped the box. Then inside, they shrink-wrapped the pages into packets.

OTOH, if I had known anyone else in the class, it would have been super-easy to split the cost of the 'book'+photocopying. Super easy when it's loose pages.

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DH405

August 26, 2009 10:38 PM

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@oneandone: I did that in a class once. Split the cost up, then took it to Kinko's and had the spine cut off with the hydraulic cutter for about $0.75 and then scanned it on a big nice ADF scanner I had access to.

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suzy-q

August 26, 2009 5:42 PM

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@sn1per: And you can't sell loose-leaf books back 99 times out of 100.

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August 26, 2009 5:39 PM

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@sn1per: That happened with me a few years ago (Earth sciences materials). I liked some aspects of it - I could print out lecture slides, punch holes in them, and add them to the 'textbook' in the correct location. On the other hand, the not-book text book cost quite a lot - very similar to what bound books cost. Luckily, I scavanged a binder, so I saved on that cost.

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August 26, 2009 5:08 PM

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Yep I just had this happen to me but i didn't know till yesterday. I went to go pick up one book and came out with three in the same package. I'm just glad it was the only book I needed to buy. Thank you to all the professors whose curriculum that can be bought on Amazon.

Beats paying for my school's IT 103 (basic computing) book for $250. It is cheaper to take the class at the local community college than buy the book.

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wgrune

August 26, 2009 5:08 PM

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The professors are also to blame. There is no reason that a new edition of a calc book needs to be used every year. You can't tell me that the concepts of calc are so dynamic that they require yearly updates.

4 replies

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suzy-q

August 26, 2009 5:45 PM

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@wgrune: College algebra doesn't change much either; the professors at my school require a new edition every semester so that they can make up new problems to make sure students don't cheat off of last semesters' students.

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Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!)

August 26, 2009 5:19 PM

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@wgrune: We aren't allowed to keep stocking the old editions; the publisher refuses to sell to the campus bookstore if we try that.

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August 26, 2009 6:05 PM

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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): My school is having that problem, too. Being that our math and engineering departments are made of pure concentrated awesome, many professors are working together to create their own homework sets and highly recommend using the books for practice.

I love my tiny crazy college; I fear the day I have to move onto another school because I doubt I'll be so lucky.

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August 28, 2009 7:34 AM

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@Pink Puppet:
What awesome-sounding tiny crazy college is this?

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MMD

August 26, 2009 5:30 PM

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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): I second that. They brought a new bookstore vendor in to the school I used to teach at, and they gave one of my colleagues a terrible time about trying to order older editions.

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treimel

August 26, 2009 5:53 PM

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Well, that's one big reason large universities tend to have non-official bookstores just off-campus. I know ours was much, much cheaper.

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August 26, 2009 5:10 PM

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This used to happen to me once or twice a year. So annoying, especially because those packets are not cheap, but they're cheaply made! At least you can sell a book back, to recoup part of the cost.

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August 26, 2009 5:12 PM

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OTOH, it really makes me cringe when I see students doing anything they can to get out of buying books. I realized the books are overpriced and often not necessary and I agree with trying to get them used, borrowing them, waiting to see if you really need it, etc. But I work in a library and *way* too many students think they're going to come into the library and check out the book and be good for the whole semester. First of all if we even have the book we have one or two copies, not enough for everyone in your class who's trying to do the same thing. Second of all you're not going to be able to keep it for the whole semester even if you do check it out now. Third of all... buying books is part of the cost of going to college! I realize there are ways to cut the cost but people just need to face the fact that that's part of it.

6 replies

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narc1

August 26, 2009 9:59 PM

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@dulcinea47: you are wrong, it doesn't have to be that way, most GOOD libraries will have books on reserve especially the more popular textbooks which you can rent out for an hour or 2. I haven't bought expensive textbooks since my 2nd year because the ones at my schools library are the same, even the older versions cover most of the same material. To be honest too, professors that force you to memorize the textbook are below par in my eyes because it is their job to put the point across about info we need for the class, the textbook should only supplement what is taught in class, not replace it. I'll look up professors on ratemyprof.com to make sure their not some slackers because I'm paying too much money for them to not be giving me 100%.

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August 26, 2009 6:24 PM

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@dulcinea47: Why cringe? I'm not going to pay $175 for a textbook package when I can get the separate books used for a total of $40. My books this year would cost me around $800 if I bought them all new. I can barely afford university as it is.

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menty666

August 26, 2009 6:08 PM

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@dulcinea47: While I don't agree that students should assume the book will be in the library, I don't agree that student's are in the wrong here griping about the cost of the books.

I've been out for over 10 years now and even then my book costs were 500 or more a semester and I'd be lucky to see 90.00 back at buyback. Had I had the option of getting lower cost books outside the store system I would have happily taken advantage of it.

While I'm not advocating piracy, I'm surprised more student's don't just pool together to buy a single copy, use scanning tech to make their own copies then pawn it off on amazon and split the proceeds.

The year after year push for a new edition because the foreword has changed or there's a new image on page 56 is ridiculous. It harms students who are already working several jobs to pay for educations of declining quality and market value. In many cases the only reason they get any degree at all is because potential employers want to see the piece of paper.

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Ferris152

August 26, 2009 5:33 PM

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@dulcinea47: I disagree. Yes, people need to realize that buying books is (currently) a part of the cost of going to college. But I don't recommend anyone just accept that. There is a movement in academia to develop more open source and online texts. Hopefully it will gain more favor with professors. Considering the poor state of our education system vs the cost of getting said education, students should be demanding a price cut to tuition and that efforts be made by universities to limit the unnecessary waste and unbridled greed involved in the textbook market.

The purpose of education is to get the skills to get a good job to make money to live the life you choose. Going more into debt than is necessary simply because you didn't stand up against the greed and stupidity inherent in the system isn't a very educated approach.

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August 26, 2009 5:54 PM

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@Ferris152: students should be demanding a price cut to tuition and that efforts be made by universities to limit the unnecessary waste and unbridled greed involved in the textbook market.

My TA years have made me cynical about students and free reading materials. The prof & I went to great lengths to make sure that not only did we only use free sources for required readings (this was for a series of envt science classes, so we had all public access journal articles, news articles, government reports, etc) but we copied the materials ourselves, punched holes in them, and distributed them in sections in month. Easily 40% of the students never picked them up. Maybe they looked them up in the syllabus and tracked them down online? Doubtful.

The next year, tired of sorting through thousands of copies, I just put PDFs of all the files on our courses' web portals, flagging them with the dates they needed to be read by. We had free printing in the department for anyone who wanted hard copies. Midway through the semester I started checking who logged in to do the reading.... less than 75%.

Both those efforts required a significant amount of work from the staff and very little in terms of results. Assigning the class to buy a text book (or bulk pack) 1) assures the staff that the students actually have the readings in their hands and may potentially be prepared for class 2) is a lot less work.

Bottom line: universities aren't going to go to efforts to make readings cheap/free if students aren't going to take advantage of opportunities already out there.

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Ferris152

August 26, 2009 6:24 PM

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@oneandone: Whether the student reads the required reading for a class is not a concern of the professor. You say less than 75% of the students used the online resources, but you only know that because it was online and you're able to check the login history. You don't know how many were actually reading the text when it was purchased from the bookstore. It could have been less.

As for the efforts required to get the material ready to teach a class, I'd have to respond that having the necessary materials ready for class is a part of the job of a professor (and their TAs). Professors say that student's don't prepare for class enough, but I've taken a lot of classes from professors who weren't prepared. We would end up playing games because the prof didn't read the chapters we were supposed to be discussing that day.

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August 26, 2009 8:25 PM

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@Ferris152: You are very correct, in all your points. But if you give a professor/TA the choice between a lot of effort that seems unappreciated vs. minimal effort, after a few years, most are going to start picking the minimal effort option, which also happens to cost the student tens or hundreds of $$.

Some positive reinforcement for the staff already trying to make the effort would be good. There are definitely lots of unprepared professors (and TAs!), so give the ones trying to help the students some appreciation - or at least do the minimum and pretend to actually make use of that work. Otherwise, they won't keep it up and in the end, the students are getting the most screwed.

I'm sure there are plenty of professors & TAs with kinder hearts and more altruism than me (This is why I am not a professional educator). They may keep posting the pdfs. But if you ever get stuck with a grinch like me, let them know when their work is helping you out.

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treimel

August 26, 2009 6:11 PM

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But yours sounds like the perfect solution--if the students don't take advantage, that's their problem! I know I would have jumped at the pdf solution.
You can lead a student to course materials, but you can't make him think.

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August 26, 2009 6:54 PM

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@treimel: We're fortunate enough to have library staff to deal with relevant licensing, etc., issues, so the great majority of assigned articles or book chapters in my school are in PDF. (The books are almost all in copyright, so of course that won't work with them.) The exceptions are generally stuff that students don't have to pay for--a professor didn't get them ready in time for online versions so has to get them copied to pass out in class.

It's a good plan, I think.

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varro

August 27, 2009 7:23 AM

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@floraposte: When I was in college, there was a much cheaper solution - course packets put together by a copy shop. No buying one book for a few pages of material, and a diverse amount of sources could be used in class.

Unfortunately, that was ruled copyright infringement.

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August 26, 2009 5:29 PM

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@dulcinea47: I've copied the library copies of textbooks...at least the chapters that we were using. Would I have preferred my own copy of the book? Sure, but textbooks often can run more expensive than the classes themselves. I am putting myself through school and have no loans, so I have to make cuts where I can. When my CC tuition was $600 for 3 classes and the books for those 3 classes totaled almost $800,I just couldn't afford it.

I have spent thousands of dollars in textbooks that I've never even used, only to be told I couldn't resell it at the end of the semester because they are using a new version next year, or to get back like $20 for a nearly brand-new book I paid $200 for just months ago.

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schwnj

August 26, 2009 5:17 PM

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I am a professor at a giant public university, and I get constantly bombarded with email, phone calls, and sometimes office visits from sales reps pushing $140 textbooks and $80 packets that can be \"customized\" to my course (most likely to prevent resale to students at other schools).

Having always hated buying books that I never read, for my classes I now choose the cheapest text I can find, make it optional, and encourage the students to buy an old edition for $5 online. And, since my school has a ton of online full-text journal subscriptions, I can skip using a packet and simply hand out a reading list so that the students can look up the articles for free online.

5 replies

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August 26, 2009 9:40 PM

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And you teach what subject?

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August 27, 2009 7:52 PM

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@StanTheManDean: I wanted to weep with joy when my professor told me that since most of the text we needed to read was in the public domain, we didn't have to buy yet another Norton Anthology book. (American Lit before 1865, btw.)

On the other hand, a professor last semester wrote her entire curriculum and put it on her website free of charge, and I kept finding myself wishing I had a printed copy so I wasn't tethered to my computer all day long. You just can please some people, I guess. :)

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August 27, 2009 7:53 PM

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@emilayohead: Grrr, I meant CAN'T. Edit button, anyone?

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August 26, 2009 7:31 PM

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Oh....bless you for that! I seriously hope I get at least a couple of professors like you!

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Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

August 26, 2009 6:12 PM

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@schwnj: More professors need to be like you!

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August 26, 2009 5:43 PM

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@schwnj: yes I have professors like you and you'll are fantastic.

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The_Lost_Art_of_Sears_Customer_Service

August 26, 2009 5:18 PM

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My University's bookstore was more like the warehouse at the end of \"Raiders of the Lost Ark\" than an actual *store*. Huge, cathedral-style roof; aisles that sprawled on forever, and dangerous ancient artifacts stored away in wooden boxes (hello there original Stockbridge curriculum).

Luckily for me, when I was in college, these kinds of shenanigans didn't fly at the school I graduated from. The college I transferred from, however, was (and still is) in the grip of publishers. I remember an art history teacher telling us she had worked out a deal with the bookstore to buy back our textbook for $80. This was 3 weeks into the course, and 3 weeks after we had to buy the book for $325.

Also, am I the only one here who never sold any of their books back?

2 replies

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August 27, 2009 3:36 AM

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@The_Lost_Art_of_Sears_Customer_Service: I also kept all of my books (the ones I bought anyway). I am a bit of a packrat though. Also, I never mark (i.e. highlight) in books either. The thing with my books is that you would never tell they were used. I am one of those weirdos that thinks books are sacred and not to be marked in any way, but again, I am a weirdo.

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August 26, 2009 7:32 PM

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@The_Lost_Art_of_Sears_Customer_Service:

I don't even bother with selling books back to the bookstore. I know they won't give me anything worthwhile anyway. I sell them on Amazon..well...the ones I don't want to keep that is.

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August 26, 2009 5:20 PM

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English classes are awesome because you can buy the books used or new, and when the class is over you have books. Not textbooks, real novels, volumes of poetry and anthologies. You can even read them again.

Sure, I didn't like all of the assigned books but they don't constantly release new versions so I could sell a couple back or just eat the $8 cost of a paperback.

BTW, does anyone need a used copy of The Woman Warrior? I only made it about 20 pages in.

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August 26, 2009 5:45 PM

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@futuresuperbowlMVPJayCutler: Yes I look quite well read with my bookshelf full of Hemingway and Shakespeare thanks to English professors.

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August 26, 2009 5:31 PM

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@futuresuperbowlMVPJayCutler: No thanks, I have my own.

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esc27

August 26, 2009 5:25 PM

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Be careful about books written by the professor teaching the class. Some professors will be angry and unfair to students who don't purchase a new copy of their books (any thus pay them royalties...) So when you contact the professor, don't tell him you are looking to buy the book used, do tell him you want to be 100% sure you buy the correct \"new\" book for his class, and if the book has a \"used\" sticker on it, peel it off.

4 replies

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August 26, 2009 6:25 PM

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@esc27: Professors who require their own texts should separate themselves from their royalties -- for example, by donating them to the college's scholarship fund. To do anything else is just plain unethical.

By the way, when I require my text I make .pdf copies of the chapters available online so that students don't have to pay for it.

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treimel

August 26, 2009 7:20 PM

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I had a rhetoric professor who made it a part of the course that students would have to debate what should happen to that portion of the royalties that were due to our class. I don't remember what charity won out, but it was novel solution, in my view

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August 26, 2009 6:57 PM

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@DadsterNC: Does your publisher know you do that? We'd get our asses kicked if we tried that, which is why articles or manuscript chapters are easier to do.

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mizike

August 26, 2009 5:45 PM

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@esc27: The royalties that most professors get from book sales will be a pittance compared to their salary. They're probably not recommending a book just so they can have some extra pocket change at the end of the semester. That being said, alot of profs have giant egos so of course their books will be the only one worth using, so it's conceivable they will make students buy their book for that reason but probably not just for the royalties.

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August 26, 2009 5:33 PM

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What really irks me is the lack of affordable eTexts. I own a tablet PC and would much rather use it to hold my books rather than carry a pile of heavy paper, but when you cam find an ebook edition, it normally sells for about the same price as a used paper book, but is only valid for 6 months, and course you can't resell it. All for something that costs approximately $0 to distribute and sell, and very little to write as it probably has nearly the exact same contents as the last 4 editions, just with different fonts and numbers changed in the homework problems.

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dohtem

August 26, 2009 11:41 PM

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@ogremustcrush: Sadly, they can argue that you are also paying a premium for the convenience and portability.

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August 26, 2009 5:34 PM

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some of my college textbooks came with a PDF version of the book on disc. Needless to say I made a few bucks selling copies of the disc. anywho, I'm in the process of locating books for my current classes. the damn things are mostly lab manuals which one is 111.25 and the other is 53.20... I'd say college textbooks is the equivalent to legal extortion!!

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shepd

August 26, 2009 5:34 PM

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Just set up a scanning group. Seriously, I did this once. We used a textbook to learn RPG. It was well over 30 years old (The language itself is now over 50 years old) and still priced at over $100. We decided \"copyright expired\" and I scanned the entire damn thing in. At the time, we paid a flat fee for printing, so I also printed it out (duplexed). It was over 1000 pages, but I didn't care.

Total cost for every student who joined me? One 3\" ring binder (we borrowed a previous student's book).

I bought the rest of my textbooks because everyone else was too lazy to scan in an entire book. Also, some of them were new enough, or updated enough, the author actually deserved their income.

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August 26, 2009 5:36 PM

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As I had to pay my own way in college--I often chose classes based on what the textbooks were. As a politics major, we didn't often have conventional texts. Also, for liberal arts course, avoid introductory courses whenever possible. Those are the largest targets for the textbook publishers. Besides expensive texts, they also tend to be lecture hall classes. If you are fairly well-read, you'll do fine.

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August 26, 2009 5:37 PM

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I saved lots of money in college by using the Interlibrary loan feature of my library account. Usually my school would have a copy of the textbook, but it would be a reserve, that you couldn't check out and take home. It might just be an Illinois program, not sure if all states do it, but you could request a book from any library in Illinois and they would send it to your school's library. It only took a day or two. So I would request textbooks from other schools and just keep renewing them for the entire sememster. Free books!

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JGKojak

August 26, 2009 5:37 PM

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You'd think someone would start a website (ala rate my professors) that lists course packets.

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August 26, 2009 5:37 PM

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I have a tip that may work for some a small amount of people, but still, if you're bilingual, buy the book in another language. An economics book that I needed this semester costs $200 in English, but $50 in Spanish (same edition, same everything, except language).

This packet idea is ridiculous. In fact, the cost of higher education these days (which a lot of times, is worthless considering what you're going to earn with most degrees versus the amount of student loans you'll have) is too expensive and I'm curious to see how many students have needed to drop out this year because they can't afford it anymore and can't find work.

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corinthos

August 26, 2009 5:42 PM

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Same thing happened with my classes. A few of the teachers who been there longer were using books that could be purchased at retailers like barnes and noble. The younger ones used a bunch of books that had unique codes that you had to have to go online and do quizes. Couldn't purchase the code seperately.

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DH405

August 26, 2009 5:47 PM

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Ask the prof directly which books he/she will teach from and buy only those.

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August 26, 2009 6:56 PM

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@DH405: Doesn't always work - if it's on the syllabus, it's important.

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DH405

August 26, 2009 10:36 PM

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@burnedout: Not always true. I've had a prof who got a department-provided syllabus and still didn't use the other book.

He said \"We MIGHT eventually make it to that book, but I seriously doubt it. Return it and if we really really rush thru this first one, you can go out and buy the 2nd text.\"

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August 27, 2009 2:22 AM

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@DH405: Yeah, I'm referring to the prof who has created their own syllabus. Being asked \"do we really need this book?\" is as annoying as \"are we doing anything important in class today?\" I once asked that question of a prof and got the answer, \"I spent the whole summer reviewing / selecting texts and writing that syllabus...it's important.\" I get why you want to ask, but you do run the risk of a defensive response and starting off wrong with the prof.

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August 26, 2009 5:51 PM

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Luckily I went to college in the 1970s when books were much cheaper. We didn't have many outlets for cheaper or used books, like Amazon. At my school, you'd submit your schedule to the bookstore and they'd bring you your pile of books. I was aghast that they cost $80! Now I work for a technical publisher who's getting into textbooks. I can't believe the prices on some of them. I really feel for you college-age people. But you can weep for me in two years when my daughter hits college.

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coren

August 26, 2009 5:58 PM

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So what's the deal with these packets? I mean, is it a Chem 101, Psych 101 and Hist 101 set, or is it sets for classes - which means those professors are requesting those books be ordered. In which case they know what books they're using. And the store knows what books were ordered because they *ordered* them.

Maybe I'm just missing something.

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August 26, 2009 8:03 PM

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@coren: What happens is the publisher creates an entirely new ISBN when 2 or more texts/workbooks are bundled together (sometimes known as packets) for a given class. Typically the items are shrinkwrapped together. Unless you know the individual ISBN numbers of the components it can be a hassle to track down. The goal of any (good) sales rep is to change the ISBN from year to year so that the used book market doesn't recognize the \"old\" packet and force unsuspecting students to buy the \"new\" components, which are usually either a newer edition plus a workbook, software, or something else that realistically probably doesn't add any real value. Most (though not consumerist readers!) students just buy the packet rather than figure out what's actually included.

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August 26, 2009 5:59 PM

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I actually went through this last night. i went to the bookstore on campus and they were sold out of the book. It's the latest edition so there aren't any used copies. the packet price was $166. i went on amazon this morning and found the Text book for $122 and a solution manual for $11. I paid $11 for 2 day shipping. granted i could have done the free shipping, but i need the book for next Tuesday.

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jimv2000

August 26, 2009 6:02 PM

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I think a great system would be to just charge a \"book fee\" of $15-20 for every class (automatically when you register), and then you get a time-limited PDF of the textbook that you can download. This would be a great model in the near future when eBook readers and hybrid epaper/lcd laptop screens become more popular.

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August 26, 2009 6:06 PM

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@jimv2000: a \"book fee\" of $150-200 for each class

FTFY

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jimv2000

August 26, 2009 6:02 PM

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@jimv2000: It would save a ton of waste paper too.

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August 26, 2009 6:02 PM

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I don't get it. Why would a college professor choose one of these packets without knowing the contents, and if he or she did know the contents, why would it not be listed on the syllabus? I see no incentive for a professor to choose one of these packets unless they are teaching from a syllabus they did not write and do not care about, in which case the student would probably be better off not taking the class.

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August 27, 2009 2:25 AM

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@NobleCrayfish: In a lot of cases the publisher made a deal with the department and the packet is for a core-level or prerequisite class (one with either a lot of sections or very large lecture halls). In the case of one of my classes the packet is mandated by the department - the prof has absolutely nothing to do with it and wasn't informed of the packet situation until the week before school.

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yasth

August 26, 2009 6:48 PM

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@NobleCrayfish: Sales reps with big tits.

Actually the professors often times don't even realize that they are ordering a packet, the sales rep will just say oh you want Book A and Software B, just order 32423 and your students will save 5% (of course that is off of list).

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geoffory

August 26, 2009 6:10 PM

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I am halfway through an Engineering degree at Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo. I am yet to run into this packet issue, but every quarter is a fight to try and stay frugal on books.

My classes start September 22nd, less than a month away, and I am still not able to look up what the required textbooks are. Once the list is available, it is only through the campus bookstore's website, and they NEVER list ISBN's or even what edition - just a garbled title and author. The only way to know for sure what book you need is to go to the bookstore and wander the shelves, so that you can see the book firsthand. Between the short notice of publishing access to a book list, and the lack of specific information in that list, it makes it very difficult to order books online and get them before the first midterms are approaching.

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August 26, 2009 6:10 PM

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It takes two to tango .

If they wouldn't to reform the college/education industry like health care this would be a perfect example of out of control costs and un-necessary expenditures .

Unfortunetly you're screwed if the professor or school tests on THAT text . Most subjects though I'd bet you could find an alternative .

I heard the text book industry is under pressure especially when dealing in grade to high school texts to cut down on features like metallic inks , embossing or any extravagant graphics because local governments want costs lowered . Perhaps these companies are trying to make it up on the secondary education market .

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menty666

August 26, 2009 6:13 PM

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Maybe legal dictionaries should be on everyone's reading lists to find words and phrases such as \"anti-competitive behavior\", \"collusion\", \"racketeering\", \"price fixing\".

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treimel

August 26, 2009 6:53 PM

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It was on my reading list in law school--you wouldn't believe what they charged!

Actually, I was one of the few people who bought an old Black's Law Dictionary on my own--I can't imagine why people were buying new ones from the bookstore, but there they were lined up like idiots.

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tvmitch

August 26, 2009 6:16 PM

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It's always worth checking overseas bookstores, such as First And Second in India, for paperback copies of American textbooks. I twice got books from them for ~$15 shipped that were $140 or more in our college bookstore. It wasn't in color, but who cares?

I told as many folks as I could in my class about it, and many returned their textbooks to the bookstore on the first day of class.

Also, another textbook strategy FTW: buy previous editions of books. Page numbers and chapters are generally the same or very close. No one needs the 47th edition of a Math 101 textbook.

My experience in college was and has been that there is a direct ratio between the effectiveness and laziness of a professor and the price of their required textbooks.

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August 26, 2009 6:17 PM

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Back when I was in university, I specifically remember several profs switching to textbooks that were updated less and weren't as good as the old ones, simply because they were sick and tired of having to deal with a new textbook revision every year. Some even made their own textbooks for the course and sold those instead for $20. It saved the students money, and it saved them having to go through all their teaching material and assignments to update them every year. I have several revisions of the same textbook for a few classes, and all they do is rearrange the questions at the end of the chapter, or fix a few typos. The chapter contents are identical.

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August 26, 2009 6:22 PM

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\"Academic faculty being only human, they will often neglect to adequately publish the information. Thus, the only way for students to figure out what courses actually require is to buy a packet and open it up.\"

Bull!!! The bookstore staff could certainly find out what's in the packet and make it known -- if they wanted to, which they don't because it will cost them lost sales.

As a faculty member for over thirty years AND a parent of three college students I can tell you that it's the bookstores and the publishers who are making the $$$ -- not the textbook authors and certainly not the faculty who select the texts.

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gparlett

August 26, 2009 6:27 PM

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I did pretty well in college getting cheap books, this was before you could really buy textbooks off the internet, so you had to get creative.

a) I always checked the library. I know we've had a few people here say NOT to do this, but I didn't go and scream at the librarian, I used the online card catalog and was happy when I struck gold. My college let me do online searches of all the colleges in Ohio, and online requests. This is how I got Malcolm X's autobiography, for instance. Nearly 10 people in my class borrowed that book from me throughout the semester and the school allowed me to do extensions online.

b) I bought a lot of old editions. The 4th Edition is generally just as good as the 5th Edition, and one costs $5 and one costs $100.

c) I borrowed or rented books as often as possible. There is never any need for you to buy books to freshman Gen Eds. There are thousands of copies of the Biology 101 book floating around your campus, just make friends with someone who has it.

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August 26, 2009 6:31 PM

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@gparlett:Your a and b points can be combined! My school's library often is out of all the newest edition of a textbook, but has tons and tons of older editions that no one touches.

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August 26, 2009 6:30 PM

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Publishers also have this racket where each new textbook package comes with a unique serial number. This number lets you register on their website for extra exercises, quizzes, and information. The stuff on the site is definitely not worth the amount of money they charge for it, but some professors insist on using it.

It's a real waste of resources. There are thousands and thousands of used books from these packages sitting around because students can't sell them after they're finished with them.

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dahlink_natasha

August 26, 2009 6:49 PM

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They tried this with me in one of my classes...I saw a $130 bundle on the bookstore website and waited until the classes started. Lo and behold, the \"bundle\" was just the regular textbook with a CD attached. I was able to get the ISBN number off the back of the book since they wrapped it with the barcode to the outside, and found the same book used on Amazon for $50. What also irritated me would be when I shelled out $200 for books only to find out that what the bookstore called \"required,\" the professor said, \"Only if you want to buy it.\"

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August 26, 2009 6:55 PM

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\"Academic faculty being only human, they will often neglect to adequately publish the information. Thus, the only way for students to figure out what courses actually require is to buy a packet and open it up.\"

That's not totally true - the list that's displayed online limits the characters and is often automated to the ISBN. I list the books in my syllabus, but I have no control over the text list posted on the department's site. It's better to just ask or check the bookstore's website if you want to know which books are in a packet.

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August 26, 2009 7:24 PM

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It gets very frustrating. Books are expensive, so I always check my school bookstore's website for ISBNs, which I copy and paste into Amazon or Half.com. The bookstore (now run by Barnes and Noble at VCU here in Richmond, VA) stopped posting plaintext ISBNs. They show them in images so you have to type them out.

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That's Consumer007 to you

August 26, 2009 7:30 PM

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It seems to me this is an illegal monopolistic marketplace practice. The students who are paying for the courses have a RIGHT to know the accurate ISBN numbers of required items for THEIR courses and purchase them wherever and however they prefer on the market. Some law students affected by this need to get together with professors in every state and/or federally and file complaints with Attorneys General, the FTC, etc. to get the packet nazis to back off, and further just put these publish scam artists out of business.

In the meantime, a packet burning bonfire might be an entertaining protest if it's conducted safely with no risk to others.

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August 26, 2009 8:07 PM

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@Areyouagoodlittleconsumer: There are no \"rights\" for anyone here, and you're kidding yourself if you think a professor is going to help bring down the industry. The profs are getting kickbacks from the publishing companies. It's been going on for years.

A packet burning bonfire would be great though--next semester students have to buy the new stuff!

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August 27, 2009 2:33 AM

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@eggman131: There is a misconception that profs get kickbacks. We don't. Profs who publish books get royalties, but many donate royalties to academic research (in our department, profs donate their royalties to the faculty and graduate student conference travel budget). I WISH I got kickbacks. No such luck.

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August 28, 2009 1:53 AM

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@burnedout: I hope you're talking about \"symbolic\" packets. If you're burning the actual course contents, that's some very expensive kindling!

The bundles are news to me. Sure, there were overpriced textbooks and half of my upper-division coursework wasco-authored by the professors teaching the course (not surprising having gone to this particular university), but most did what they could to make the course materials affordable and accessible.

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August 26, 2009 7:53 PM

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I worked for a major academic technology publisher for a number of years. I agree that books are expensive; however, understand that publishers need a continuous revenue stream in order to continue publishing books. If you don't buy books then they can't pay authors to write them and eventually: voila--no money, no author, no books & no publisher. Then what will you read? This is simplifying the issue a bit, of course, but at its core publishing is like any other business.

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August 26, 2009 9:43 PM

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@eggman131: or course I understand that books need to be bought so that the publishing process can continue, but the publishers have gone beyond just being in the business of selling books and into pure greed.

$200 for a textbook? REALLY? In what kind of way is this justified? If the books were placed at a more attainable $50-$75 per item, there might be less after-market purchases. Publishers could also buy back copies of the book and sell the used books directly through their websites (or to Universities) ensuring them a chunk of the used market as well.

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kexline

August 26, 2009 7:54 PM

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@pecan 3.14159265: I agree that having a professor require his own book is only reasonable, as long as he doesn't condone any shady anti-student practices.

On the much, much less ethical hand, though, you've got departments that unequivocally require students to buy books authored within the department, which then aren't used at all by the specific professor teaching the class.

Last year -- this particular instance really gets my knickers bunched -- I was required to buy, and required to destroy, a high-gloss workbook vanity-published by someone inside the department. It cost about $24, and the professor used six pages from it that weren't even slightly germane to what we were doing in class, just to render our copies unsalable. Worse, the \"author\" of this \"book\" actually lists it as a publication, even though it's nothing more than tarted up, two-color, plasticoiled classnotes.

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Cupajo

August 26, 2009 8:11 PM

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I used to work for a used-textbook company and I can assure you, textbook publishers are among the worst companies out there. Almost all textbooks come out with new editions every two years like clockwork (unless it's computer related, when the come out even faster). That's understandable in science or history related books, where there's new information to include in the new edition. But what exactly new is happening in the French language that merits a new edition? And professors are compliant in the great rip-off. Most of them accept perks and bribes from publishers to require the newer edition.

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Geell

August 26, 2009 8:14 PM

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After my first semester of college I attempted to sell my six books back. I was told five of them they would not take, and the last $200 book they would give me $20 for.

I felt so degraded that I have never been back to the school bookstore.

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aswearengen

August 26, 2009 8:50 PM

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Part of the problem I see is that professors post the syllabus just a short time before the class starts up, and so there is not enough time to order the books online and get them shipped. In law school I generally tried to buy online, but often not all the books were available online, and there were a few times when the books didn't come until a couple of weeks into the semester, at which point I was screwed. It might work for an underwater basketweaving class, but not for criminal law. And using old books might work for other subjects, but not for law school where we go by exactly what is in the book.

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zimmi88

August 26, 2009 8:58 PM

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What's rubbish about the whole situation is usually the textbook publishers will create these bundles with useless \"supplemental guides\" and packaged CDs that never get used by the course's professor. And, of course, the bookstore sells these bundles at a higher cost and as \"non-refundable,\" so if you drop the course later, you're SOL.

I'd say email the professor teaching the course and ask him or her personally if the whole bundle is needed, or even if you can use a different edition. Unless your professor is a jerk (which, to be fair, there are a few that are), they'll do what they can to help you save money. Surprisingly enough, there are quite a few professors whom also find the high costs of textbooks rather absurd.

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thepill

August 26, 2009 11:32 PM

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@zimmi88: Yeah, there are. I worked as a staff member at a university for 4 years, and all the profs. I worked for tried their best to keep costs down for students. You're going to get inconsiderate people in every academic department, just like all workplaces, but most professors don't think you should have to pay hundreds of dollars per class for books.

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bcsus83

August 26, 2009 9:05 PM

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It's been about 2 1/2 years since I've been in college, and they were doing this then. In fact, they were doing it back in 01 when I started college as well, but it wasn't as rampant way back then.

Quite frankly, it was annoying. Especially when you'd shell out $100 for that little 'packet' only to get it open and realize the stuff shrink wrapped w/ the book was all junk. I always held out hope the teacher would make us use it, since we had to buy it, but I can honestly say that out of 6 years of college, I can only think of one 'packet' I had to buy where we used more than just the main book inside.

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redkamel

August 26, 2009 9:15 PM

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Professors dont get a lot of royalties from their books. Anyways, heres what I would do.

a) buy the old version and see if you can get by. They can't really add more content to the book usually, and if they do, it probably wont be in the prof curriculum. And if it is, its probably not important. I highly doubt there is several hundred dollars worth of information in that packet that is not available on the internet.

b) use your friends packet to see what the content is. If its a one time use packet (ie worksheet), I am sure you can find a copy of it once you tell someone you don't have one, or even make your own. Or write the answers on a separate piece od paper.

The ones I always thought were rip offs were the spiral bound books the profs made themselves. You cant buy them used, since they usually break down and are lecture specific (like new/missing lectures, new slides etc) while the copy place marks them up. And you can't photocopy any of it since the copy places are in cahoots. But most were reasonably priced

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August 26, 2009 9:23 PM

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I remember in my final year of high school, we had to purchase paperback editions of the required reading novels. The publisher used cheap binding glue in one of the books (a collection of short stories), which caused the pages to fall out of the book while reading it! Sorry, no refunds! And of course I ran into the \"New Edition Every Year\" scam in University for 3 years.

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nybiker

August 26, 2009 9:35 PM

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Funny story (and o/t) I had during my days as a math major: This one math teacher would go through the regular first-day rules-of-the-road. The final rule was about book reports. Yeah, we were wondering the same thing. Book reports in a math class? What gives? He goes on to list the requirements and then he gets to what he calls the most important one: They had to be written on the backs of $20 bills. Well, the class just cracked up. And for the rest of my days there, whenever there was a new student in the class, he'd go through the routine and we'd all play along. Ah, fun times in calculus class.

/but it would have been a different way for him to make some extra money.

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August 26, 2009 9:37 PM

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Yo, schools are businesses. Even those \"nonprofit\" schools operate like a business and must meet operating expenses.

Tuition is the only sure fire means of collecting money from the customers (students). Books are a supplemental means of collection money from the customers (students), much in the way bank fees or baggage fees are revenue streams for other industries.

If the schools don't make enough $ off the book sales, the schools will be forced to raise tuition to cover their operating costs.

Remember that little fact when you rent/borrow your books and then whine about rising tuition rates.

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August 27, 2009 2:38 AM

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@StanTheManDean: I don't know what school you go to, but here the school does not make money from text books. The bookstores are independent from the university.

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JiminyChristmas

August 26, 2009 10:34 PM

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There are professors I've had classes with or friends who teach who tried to escape the whole textbook racket by assembling their own course packets. They would try to gather course materials from journal articles, book excerpts, etc. The problem was that if you're trying to assemble a semester's worth of material, getting copyright permission for maybe dozens of articles was a logistical, administrative, and/or expensive nightmare. Likewise, they would often have to forgo materials they would have liked to include because they couldn't get copyright permission, or couldn't get it at a price they could in good conscience charge students.

In many cases, the efforts to create homegrown course materials failed: high-quality materials couldn't be obtained, copyright expenses would ultimately total those of a comparable textbook, and it was a huge time sink for the faculty.
And let's face it; colleges are increasingly relying on adjunct faculty who get paid approximately jack shit. They aren't compensated enough to justify their spending scores or hundreds of hours preparing course materials.

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August 27, 2009 2:40 AM

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@JiminyChristmas: Yup. The only work around is to scan or download PDF files and post them to a secure course page (like a Blackboard or WebCT site). It's free to the class but you're most DEFINITELY breaking copyright law.

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thepill

August 26, 2009 11:45 PM

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@JiminyChristmas: So true. I worked for a pro. who assembled his own course packs for years. The permissions were a pain but he was organized and started early enough every year that he never had trouble. The school copy center would make the packets and sell them to the students for something like $12/pop.

Then, a couple of years ago, the school signed a contract with a company called XanEdu. They publish course packs. Professors in our department were literally no longer allowed to use the school copy shop. But XanEdu charged students around $60 for that same course pack. Granted, XanEdu gave students online access to the course materials, which the school copy shp didn't - but most students would rather just have the cheaper paper version. The school wanted to appear technologically forward-thinking when they made this change, Xeroxed course packs being quite old-fashioned, but they didn't think about the costs to the students at all. The individual professors did, though, and many of them were annoyed.

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Athenor

August 26, 2009 11:37 PM

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I work at a bookstore, where for the last week I've been acting in charge of returns.

First, in general the bundles are cheaper than buying the pieces individually (although maybe not as cheap as online).

Second, most of these bundles are either loose (binding-less) paper, come with some sort of online access card, a CD, or most recently with another book. The wrapping keeps them from getting separated, or even worse, stolen.

Third, we try our best to warn people to not unwrap things until they are ABSOLUTELY sure they need them. It is corporate policy not to buy back bundles, plus the aforementioned items could be stolen or used and we wouldn't know it. We also tend to put a sticker on them, so that if someone re-wrapped it (which most college people aren't smart enough to do) we would know then as well.

In general, we will be nice if you are nice to us about book returns and purchases. We don't like the prices any more than you do -- after all, we make crappy margins and have to deal with irate parents and students! So when we tell you the rules about buying things, please listen and we'll work with you. I don't know how many people have told me sob stories about buying the wrong book for a section and we've exchanged them (assuming they buy through us and not online -- remember that margin?).

Also... At least in our case, we'll quite often buy back the parts of the bundle individually at the end of the year, when we -know- we'll use them again. But hey, we are actually fairly well liked by our customers. ... Well, except those that don't do their research, buy through an online middleman, and pay upwards of 20% more than if they would've come in and talked to us! It just goes to show you -- online isn't always cheaper, make sure you shop around! ALWAYS!

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chiieddy

August 27, 2009 12:25 AM

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My MBA profs were very guilty of this. I think I had maybe 3 text books that weren't packets the entire time I was getting my degree.

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scruffylookingtom

August 27, 2009 1:29 AM

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Has anyone checked out where these books have been printed lately? Most of these text books are now printed in China. I work for a printer that has seen text books fade away from our presses. My wife took some classes this pass year and most of books on the copyright page says it was printed in China. Not only are they overly priced but cheaply printed.

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August 27, 2009 1:53 AM

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One of my classes used to use a 5th edition of a book and switched to a 1st edition that was 200 pages lighter than the 5th edition. This newer, lighter bundle cost me $125 compared to the old, bigger bundle costing $118.

Textbook sales are a complete racket.

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August 27, 2009 2:10 AM

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One of my profs got a nice gift from the sales rep: a gift certificate for dinner for two and theater tix in Boston. Nice to know where the money goes.

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eclectica3

August 27, 2009 3:50 AM

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I hope my students appreciate the copyright laws I overlook in order to post pdfs of their readings onto my course website!

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August 27, 2009 1:22 PM

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@eclectica3: Ditto!

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mbz32190

August 27, 2009 5:37 AM

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Some other B.S. that is being pulled right now is \"online access\" to the publisher's website which contains homework problems, practice stuff, online tests, and other stuff that really is not necessary, but professors insist on using (even though the school I'm at has a similar online setup that costs nothing extra to use--the professors just have to type in their own information). There's no way to really get out of buying these access codes which cost anywhere from 60 to 80 bucks, not including the book (and this makes used copies pretty much unavailable). There is no way you can't say that $65 is a ripoff just to take some online tests and practice problems for 4 months).

The above also usually forces you to buy from the college bookstore since the versions are usually customized.

I just purchased a bunch of books for my classes this semester today and the price differences are amazing. Bookstore wanted almost $250 for an Accounting book. I find the same version online, an international ed. but the same info, for under $40 shipped. I've also saved money by buying a previous version of the textbook as well as the required dreaded online membership (including a e-copy of the newest edition)...which still saved me at least 50 dollars.

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August 27, 2009 1:26 PM

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@mbz32190: The access code is a HUGE ripoff. Sometimes the code links you to the whole text (not just activities and quizzes). In the case of the e-books my dept is using, the text self-deletes after 6 months. So, if you have to re-take the class for any reason, you have to pay full price to get a new access code. It's insane.

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August 27, 2009 11:07 AM

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Yeah, getting the correct ISBN#'s to comparison shop is a royal PITA.

But what takes the cake are the class notes that some professors make you buy. I mean, come one, after paying thousands of dollars, you'd think that some stupid notes would be complimentary.

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August 27, 2009 1:18 PM

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As an independent textbook retailer (not a B&N or Follett), I deal with this all the time. It's not students they are really trying to confuse with this, it's retailers. The proliferation of custom books and variant ISBNs is designed to break up the shockingly efficient used textbook market. I can tell you that contacting the department or faculty is in most cases going to be a waste of time. What faculty members don't know about their books could fill the grand canyon.

If you want to know the contents of a package and their component ISBNs, I would actually suggest trying the publishers customer service, you can find their numbers easily online. I've never bothered with their consumer options in the automated menus, but you could just pretend to be a retailer. Typically, I'm not asked for account information by the CRSs until I ask them for net pricing on a title.

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Meeem

August 27, 2009 2:34 PM

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Incredibly timely topic for me. I just paid $270 for 2 textbook \"packages\" for my son's first college semester. I bought the remaining six from Amazon and Amazon resellers for a total $65, including expedited shipping. Couldn't track down the two because of the ISBN number problem cited by other commenters. Never again-- he'll visit professors next time and ask for alternatives. It's enough he'll graduate from a state school $100k in debt.

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August 27, 2009 4:06 PM

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Some years ago I hat to buy a Psych book that was branded by the college and cost $65. The cover had the name of the college all over it. I looked up the author and publisher and found the book online used for $5. It was identical page for page except for the cover (and a couple of editions old at that). The prof. was nice enough to tell me the CD included was not essential for the class. This is a back-door tuition increase, and tuition in Florida is controlled by the state government. I can't believe they get away with it.

So beware books re-branded by colleges.

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August 27, 2009 7:22 PM

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Before the semester began, I always just emailed the professors of the courses I'd signed up for and asked them what the books for the class were going to be. They were always perfectly happy to tell me. I would then go and buy them used online if I possibly could. I only ever had to buy a couple of books new. (Most of my professors were even happy to specify whether or not they cared about me having the newest edition. And there were a couple profs who always forgot to give the bookstore their lists anyway, so it was just as well I bought them in advance.)

Honestly, most professors understand how expensive books are, and are willing to help out their students as much as they can.

On the first day of one class, I told the professor that the bookstore was charging 30% over list price for the textbook he'd assigned, and there were no used copies available. (It was a cellular biophysics textbook, so it was expensive already.) He got really angry, marched over to the bookstore and demanded to see the manager. He got the price lowered, but encouraged all of us to just buy it used online, where copies were readily available. Professors are usually not down with the textbook publishing industry scams.

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micwilli

August 27, 2009 8:13 PM

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Shouldn't there be a conflict-of-interest issue with these professors that make you purchase books the authored/co-authored? Kinda like when politicians give bids to companies they have personal financial interests with? Maybe books under $50 is fair game but over that and they should have to choose a different book. Any professors that make you mutilate your book (tear out pages, etc)so they becoming non resellable are complete d*cks.

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August 28, 2009 4:20 PM

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I used to work at an off-campus bookstore. If you call your local off-campus bookstore up, you should be able to find someone to tell you what is in the package. You could also go in and do the same thing -- our store wraps in clear plastic, and in certain cases, we'll let you open the package in front of us, and we'll re-wrap it in the back if you don't want it. The campus bookstore has too many regulations to let you do that.

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