Ari writes:
I've been a loyal Vonage customer for over a year now and sing their praises all the time. I think its an incredible bargain and I have been a very satisfied customer. That changed this morning when my wife's name was called as a winner as part of a promotion on a local radio station here in Washington DC. She had 10 minutes to call their 1-800 number to claim $1000. She tried calling from our Vonage line and got a busy signal. She tried calling from her cell phone and got a busy signal. She repeated this well past her allotted 10 minutes to no avail. The $1000 prize was gone, but we did not give up. Prior to the 10 minutes expiring, she emailed the DJ of the show saying she had won but could not get through. Around 30 minutes later, a producer wrote her back, and that led to several emails back and forth and they guaranteed us there was no way the phone lines were busy at that time.After a little bit more investigation on my part, I identified the problem was actually our Vonage line. The radio station was blocking non-local numbers from calling their 800 number, which explained why our cells were getting busy signals, but our Vonage number was a local number and should have worked just fine. An email to Vonage Executive Support and a subsequent return phone call explained all. "Calls to 800 numbers," the representative told me, "are all routed through New York...so it makes perfect sense your call was blocked by the station." All Vonage offered me was 2 free months... which leaves us $936 short of the prize that should have been ours.
Certainly an odd situation, and not one that is necessarily unique to Vonage since we can easily see other VoIP providers routing 1-800 calls through a central office.
What do you think? Is it Ari's fault for relying on services with inherent limitations, or should the radio station pay up if he can prove that his wife was trying to call during the giveaway window? Dispense your justice in the comments.
(Photo: TheGiantVermin)
]]>Also, the email should be good enough for them. The point is to call in when your name is called or something like that. The email shows that you were listening.
Sounds like the Radio Station is being a little fishy and just lucked out that Vonage routes their calls.
]]>@Stephmo: Fine. 1990s technology. Because this issue actually affects those with cell phones. Many people don't have a cell phone with a local area code.
]]>Sounds like someone is running out of story ideas.
]]>By now I expect the average size of a webpage (all embedded items included) is over 500 kb:
That's the equivalent of a (nearly) 6 minute phone call. Per page!
VoIP Clogging up the internet? I think never! Unless you like to surf and talk at the same time, if everyone on the internet was using VoIP at the same time and not surfing, the tubes would actually be LESS clogged (assuming you take about 5 minutes to read a webpage and click a new link).
]]>The radio station does not have to pay for incoming calls. The lady DID have a local number, and lived at a local address - therefore was valid for the prize.
The problem was that vonage routed the 800 number in a way that made it appear to be non-local.
Since she was a local, with a local number and DID contact the radio station letting them know she still couldn't get through, I DO believe the radio station should still honor the prize.
]]>I have an out of state number, and everyone I call locally definitely doesn't have to pay to talk to me.
]]>I have an out of state number because of the type of business I deal in, but I am definitely still a local of the state I live in.
]]>They should honor the prize.
I understand that they want a sound bite for other listeners to hear the person at the moment they won - but come on!
]]>The title of this story is bunk though, of course a VOIP provider is routing things through a central office, how do you think you are getting things so cheap.
]]>The radio station badly needs to accept that the world has changed, because this problem is only going to get worse as time goes on. The static hard-wired land-line is on its way to becoming primarily a business feature, with individuals having such things becoming increasingly rare as even rural areas that get any form of broadband will start losing hard-wired phones to VoIP.
]]>@ecwis: Uh, they said they tried her cell phone, but got the same busy tone.
]]>@ajadoniz: I have never heard that phrase before. Prize-pigs. I would like to expand the definition to include people on the internet who will lie about themselves to win a prize. Example, 20-something male, single, no kids who will enter a contest to win a stroller and in the process make up three kids.
]]>@From the cubicle of PGibbons:
Sorry, didn't mean to address my post specifically at you, PGibbons.. just an overall reply to the theme of the thread.
]]>@From the cubicle of PGibbons:
The radio station doesn't owe them anything, they were using a VOIP service. (Which is a poor choice to begin with, and covered by the terms of the contest, but I digress) Voip service has inherent limitations. The Radio station didn't put legal terms in it's contest specifically to keep them from calling in, it put them in to cover their backsides (like every other company that doesn't want a lawsuit.)
I say the station is faultless in this, it's the technological limitations of voip that are at fault here.
Too bad, so sad for the consumer. When you use a service you should be aware of its limitations, you can't claim ignorance later and boo-hoo your way to a consolation prize.
This is not an anti-comsumer view, (as some people use that ridiculous defense when someone doesn't agree with them) just my opinion. My two cents.
Don't like it? Too bad, go suck on a lemon.
]]>@coren:
You mean an activist judge willing to ignore contract law, federal law as well as court precidents?
]]>Someone ought to 'hip' this station to the newfangled LP formats too. Learning about CDs, tape racks or even WAV files would probably give them a heart attack.
]]>If this 800 number issue was not told to them and it is not written anywhere, then it is Vonage's fault.
The radio station probably blocks non-local numbers because contests tend to end up on the internet and soccer moms and freebie hunters will be calling, winning,and then denied the prize. Headaches all around.
]]>However, what about the cell phone issue? Gramma ain't always sitting back knitting by her princess phone waiting on Wally Phillips to call her name for the prize anymore. I find it hard to believe that a radio station would exclude anyone who uses a cell phone from participating - seems people who have given up their landline in favor of more expensive mobile technology would likely be their "target listening demographic" anyway.
]]>Is this station still spinning LPs in a smoky room staffed by a DJ wacked out on coke, or has it made some upgrades of its own since 1970? Does the station still use strictly POTS all the way, or have they also evolved their communications network? WTF do they pay off the $1000 in - Silver Certificates or something?
]]>Oh...
]]>And if this radio station allegedly has "lots of cash" it's pretty hard to consider they might be worried about a couple pennies in extra fees on their 800# line because it got charged at the "out of state" tariff.
]]>@coren: You are probably right, but there's no telling which side a judge might come down on. There's always room for interpretation, especially if you have local/state laws that cover these things plus precedence.
]]>"Calls made from telephones with area codes outside the designated eligibility area may not be accepted."
That doesn't say connection problems, that says "we have the option to not take your call if you're not within our predefined area" - which is a moot point because this is the Vonage number we're talking about. It's a matter of if that qualifies as ordinary or not - if it does, they're owed the money, and if not, they aren't. IMO.
(how weird is it that I'm defending the business (in this case probably a corporate owned radio station) and you're defending the customer?)
]]>Their terms do not say they are actively blocking non local area codes. But vonage treated 1-800 numbers differently, so the people did have a local area code.
]]>I'm not buying the customer's story. I used Vonage for a couple of years. No matter who I called or where I called from, the person I was calling saw my caller ID.
]]>If it's owned by ClearChannel or something similar, the odds that they get routed to some central office are pretty good. They may have a few local shows, but everything else is handled by that central office for accounting purposes. Including prizes. Sad, but true.
]]>Really?
Yes, because Vonage was invented in 1981. And adopted by 99% of the population by 1985.
How dare they be so behind the times?
Honestly, in 2006 only 3.5% of homes in the US were carrying Vonage. Vonage has some unique issues that make them non-local numbers - it's a "feature" they'll actually sell you. (You can have an LA number in St. Louis if you really want - or, more practically, a St. Louis number in Iraq.)
This is a bit like saying, 'OMG, you don't support Snuggie cycles on your washers?!?!!11! How 1950s!'
]]>Also if Vonage informs it customers that 1800 calls are routed through NY it the customers fault for not reading the fine print.
]]>Participants using equipment not set up for toll free phone exchanges (800, 888, 877, 866, etc.) may experience call connection problems.
So I imagine that the station is more than covered. Vonage usage is putting them in the SOL category. And I think we're forgetting something - Vonage isn't local phone service. You can get ANY number you want from Vonage no matter where you live. This is one of the differences between Vonage and your local cable-phone service. There are going to be a lot of things you'll never notice, but there will be things that you'll give up in exchange for the service.
Which makes me wonder - do you still have to do that 911 registration thing with Vonage? And I wonder if the person here has done that...because I hope they have at least done that before worrying about a radio contest.
]]>This sounds like an actionable item to take before the FCC by Vonage (on behalf of their subscriber, of course!) to force a declaratory ruling on whether radio stations can voluntarily call-block during their on-air contests, especially if you live within at least the 40dBu RF contour of the station. The days of plain & simple "local numbers" are over with portability and services like Smartjack, Vonage, and other VoIP carriers not to mention other local ALEC's all thrown into the mix. Ma Bell having an exclusive on local numbers is dead, just the regulatory end hasn't caught up yet on all aspects of the new technology.
I smell the potential for a rule-making case here folks, if someone has the moxie to push it and could afford a lawyer that can practice before the FCC. You might even find the right law firm to file this Pro Bono just for a little recognition...
]]>but really its ari's fault for using a tech without fully understanding the limitations(things like no faxing, though i know vonage agents will lie and say stuff like that works )
plus dont they have cell phones?
doesnt everyone have a cellphone by now?
]]>Caveat emptor, baby!
]]>It's shitty, but those are the rules, and supposedly everyone read them before they entered - you're supposed to.
]]>When someone is giving things away, there's no shame in attempting to get it.
]]>1-800 numbers use what is called Dialed Number Information Service (DNIS), which can use the ANI information to route your call, depending on whether or not it is a "local" call.
I had this problem once when I was calling up an insurance provider's toll free number (Allstate, if I recall correctly.) They use DNIS to route you to a insurance agent with experience in providing insurance to your state, and the associated state laws and regulations. Because my call from Vonage appeared to be coming from New Jersey, I got automatically routed to a New Jersey agent. It was quite confusing to both of us until I realized what happened, and asked to be manually routed to my state's agent.
The system is all working exactly how it should be. Unfortunately, this is just one thing to be aware of with national VoIP providers such as Vonage and others.
]]>It might be a good idea for the radio station to verbally warn the listeners that only local calls are accepted so they should be sure to use a landline. Of course, unless this is a radio station which caters primarily to the elderly, blocking calls from celphones is probably a stupid move.
I can understand wanting to avoid the long distance charges on their 1-800 line but, if they are only accepting local calls, why are they using a 1-800 line anyway?
I don't think the radio station is legally in the wrong, just very inept at planning.
]]>Publicity such as that which the Consumerist brings often results in PR stunts. The hassle of EECBs often do the same.
]]>Given your "pick up the prize" scenario, if the rules stated:
"The Company disclaims all liability for the inavility of a participant to pick up a prize due to blah, blah, blah, or otherwise," then I would say two locked gates and a vicious guard dog would not make them liable. You may call it cheating but hey, a contract is a contract.
]]>I guess radio stations could start block all calls...then they'd never need to pay-up since they would never get anyone's "excited call".
]]>Maybe this is it:
Someone should check so we can verify that it's not just two radio stations in the same city running the same contest with the same prize and the same call-in interval.
Regardless of if this is the radio station or not, this radio station covered its rear-end quite well:
4.Telephone and Delivery Disclaimer. Participants are restricted to the use of ordinary telephone equipment. Only calls to 1-800-727-1073 will be eligible to win. The Company disclaims all liability for the inability of a participant to complete or continue a telephone call due to equipment malfunction, busy lines, inadvertent disconnections, traffic congestion on telephone lines, power outages and acts beyond the Company's control, or otherwise. Calls made from telephones with area codes outside the designated eligibility area may not be accepted.
Aside from the "otherwise" clause I would argue that VoIP is not "ordinary telephone equipment." Personally, it gives me the willie nillies.
Regardless, since the station is giving away "lots of cash" perhaps they will agree that they have had a technological lapse of judgement and should pay up.
Or we could stick with the headline's opinion (blaming Vonage) and urge the radio station to inform its listener base that Vonage phone service will not work with their contest.
]]>Unfortunately, they probably just drew another name for the money.
]]>No esquire, just you, my insult was specific to you, you disingenuous FRAUD!
]]>Unless they specifically said you would need to call from a land-line with details about which phones would work and which would not, they basically blocked the winner from being able to win.
If I gave you "one hour to pick up the prize", but you would have to go through two locked gates and past a vicious guard dog, you would consider it cheating.
Or if they simply refused to pick up the phone, would that be enough to disqualify someone repeatedly dialing? It was the caller's responsibility to call the number given. It was the radio station's responsibility to ANSWER THE PHONE when called by the winner.
Also, IN ORDER TO BLOCK THE NUMBERS, THEY WOULD HAVE NEEDED TO READ THE NUMBERS and possibly record them - their telco might have records of the repeated attempts.
]]>The OP's best bet is to name the radio station, get publicity, and shame them into coughing up. I bet their ratings would drop if listeners realized that listening to their station all day, hoping their name will be called, is useless due to their telephone shenanigans.
Contests & sweepstakes et al are governed by state regulations. Find out what the rules are in DC. Each state has different laws.
]]>She called from her cell phone which is non-local phone number but called from within the local area. She used her Vonage phone which has a local phone number but actually comes from a non local location. The station blocked both of these intentionally.
In order for this to fly the rules would have to state that they have the right to refuse the prize to anyone even after they claim it.
]]>"The radio station was blocking non-local numbers from calling their 800 number, which explained why our cells were getting busy signals," quoted from the OP.
]]>Since you seem to take inflammatory positions which you don't even bother to defend... that would meet the definition of trolling.
]]>@Rhainor:
Actually, the call was local. The routing of the call and coding of it, were not. I wonder what would have happened had she blocked her number when dialing? It would have appeared as Unknown or Private or Blocked at the radio station. Would that have allowed the call to be completed?
Assuming the contest was open only to people within a certain geographic area, then the OP's wife qualified. She attempted to make the call from within her geographic area. An unintended consequence on the part of the radio station and Vonage prevented completion of her call.
If she were to call 911, would the call center assume she was from out of the area? Where would they dispatch the appropriate emergency services?
Perhaps to be fair to all, maybe a 3-way split. The users of Vonage may bear some responsibility for how their calls are routed as they purchased the system; Vonage for not routing the local number to other local receivers; and the radio for trying to restrict out of area calls but instead restricing calls routed outside of their area. Each would assume $333.33 worth of liability. The OP's wife gets $666.66 instead of $1000 and has learned a $333.34 lesson about VoIP.
]]>PS: If the radio station rewards her with some $, it will be a PR move on their part that will open them up to extortion attempts on future contests.
]]>I'm surprised that the radio station wasn't lenient considering that she e-mailed before the 10 minutes expired and said she was trying to call.
It's certainly not Vonage's fault this happened. They could just as easily blame themselves for having non-local cell phone numbers. This is just an unfortunate event that happened due to technologies having certain limitations. When I tried Skype-out a while back I was disappointed to find that that the number that showed up with caller ID was not your Skype-in number. At the time they said they were working on correcting this, so maybe that has changed by now. Many people don't answer calls from unknown numbers, so having a different number show up on caller ID each time makes Skype-out less useful.
]]>Sorry, the Radio Station is going to win this one.
Radio Station promotions are heavily regulated by Uncle Sam.
The Radio Station published and posted the terms of the promotion at the business office of the radio station.
At legally required intervals the Radio Station instructed the public of the terms of the promotion OR referred the public to review the terms at the business office of the Radio Station during normal business hours.
The terms limit the liability of the radio station due to contestants inelgibility, inability to contact the radio station, acts of god etc.
The Radio Station will bring a copy of the Uncle Sam regs, their complaince with the regs as well as their published terms. The judge will promptly dismiss the lawsuit.
So, let's go sue the VOIP provider.
Sorry, you lost that one as well.
Somewhere in the VOIP agreement there will be a statement restricting liability should service not be available.
Most prudent people are aware of this statement of limited responsibility with regards to 911 service.
So who is left?
Cell Phone company? Same terms as the VOIP provider. Lovely mouse print that limits their liability.
Who is left?
The State and/or Uncle Sam.
There might be a claim against the State (Washington DC) for failure to properly port the number from one system to another.
MIGHT. I suspect Uncle Sam has already written the regs to protect his backside against these claims.
Remember, those who write the terms get to keep the $.
]]>@Brent: Seems like it was just blocking non-local numbers. If you had a cell phone that had a number that was "local" I don't think there would have been a problem. I think the thing is, their phone was not dialing through with a DC area code, and using outdated tech, it probably just looked at the area code or something.
]]>Stations contest, stations rules. She did not call in, they do not have her excited call, she does not get the money. Doesn't matter that she had vonage.
Thats like saying "I would have beat you to the finish line but I had to stop and tie my off brand shoes". Well guess what, you didn't make it to the finish line because of your off brand shoes. If you wanted to finish first you shouldn't have cut corners.
I like vonage.
]]>And drop VoIP for your primary number.
]]>@Outrun1986: Thing is they did contact the station within the alloted time to let them know they were attempting to call but couldn't get through and unless 5000 people share her name and contact info it shouldn't have been a problem.
I get the feeling it's the station limiting who collects as per some other comments to reduce overhead of the promotion.
]]>Most cell phones out here (SF Bay Area) aren't "local calls" to the area they reside in.
]]>This is another example of why when comparing phone service technology that not just $ is important, you are comparing apples (land line) to oranges (VOIP) to grapes (cellular). Even within each catagory of technology there can be variations based on the specific provider.
]]>Hit paydirt with K-Dirt!
]]>OTOH, for contests where they pick a name, announce it on the air, and give X minutes for that ONE person to call in, they won't need this feature.
]]>They DID try to call in within the 10 minutes, but the radio station ADMITS to blocking their call!
What would I do? Well right now I would be debating weather to go the route of contacting a lawyer and going that way, or going to the rest of the media and try to make as big of a deal about it as possible - about how they gave them 10 minutes to call, but admits to blocking their call and not allowing them to call in from their home phone or cell phone. And that they even e-mailed the station within the 10 minutes to let them know of the issue of not being able to get through.
]]>@Esquire99:
Why do you people continue to respond to this anti-consumer dick when he posts his nonsense? He's just seeking attention with his baiting. Ignore the troll.
If jurisdiction is an issue, they will need to make the rule be that if the "winner" cannot prove legal domicile in the specified area, the "win" is void and the prize forfeited. Phone NUMBERS no longer have this info. They need to show a drivers license, apartment lease, or bill of sale for a new home ... in the area ... to collect.
]]>On the other hand, since the cell phone did not work either, there may have been some other non related issue going on with the radio station's phone lines.
]]>Doesn't the blocking of non-local calls defeat the purpose of providing a toll-free number?
People who used to live in another area can now keep their number when they move to D.C. The radio station's FAILED technology won't know how to correctly allow it through as the local call it is.
]]>@switchblade saints: So if someone offered you $1,000 for doing what you do already you'd say no?
]]>@switchblade saints: You can have a job and still want to win an extra buck.
]]>@switchblade saints: You don't have to be "out for a quick buck" to accept the winnings of a sweepstakes. Do you realize that it's possible to have a job AND enjoy the radio? And to also enter fun contests from your favorite radio station?
]]>"Duh, of course the line isn't *actually* busy, my phone company is just mysteriously routing my call through New York and also the radio station is blocking calls from New York. I shouldn't do something reasonable like email them and let them know what's happening, but run over to my neighbour's house and try his phone! That's the ticket!"
]]>My guess is the station is using piss-poor defense against professional prize seekers. The radio station really should pay up.
]]>I'm sure many other things are equally valid headlines, but there can only be ONE headline, and I think they got it right here.
]]>I wouldn't be surprised if the station caused their own telephone number(s) to be busy during that 10 minute period. Please note, I'm not saying they did. I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if we found out they did.
She should try to get the local newspapers involved. Maybe the station can be shamed into doing what's right.
I'm also curious to know if the station is a local independent station of part of a national company.
]]>That radio station needs to pony up, unless they told those entering that VOIP calls and out of area cell phones would be blocked than I would think they would be in violation of some of the laws/codes regarding sweepstakes and contests.
It would also go a long way toward earning some much needed community goodwill for a business headed the way of the dodo.
]]>@Esquire99: Why provide a toll-free number if you're not willing to pay the toll? Why not just give out a local number for listeners to call?
I agree though... Vonage was very kind to offer 2 free months.
]]>Her call was local.
Much in the same way that if you take your cellphone from one side of the country to the other, your call is from wherever you made it.
I mean, why don't we just start counting satellites and claim some people's calls are from outer space?
]]>@doctor_cos: Sure, if she had only discovered the cause of the problem within the first 10 minutes.
]]>....
"Around 30 minutes later, a producer wrote her back, and that led to several emails back and forth and they guaranteed us there was no way the phone lines were busy at that time."
So if Vonage was the problem...why couldn't she get through on her cell phone???
]]>My in-laws' home phone is not local to the city that is their postal address (and closest to them). However, calls are local to a city 3 times as far and even though everybody is in the same area code.
]]>I'd be more upset with the radio station than Vonage. The listener did what she was supposed to do. It's not her fault, or Vonage's that the radio station blocked her call.
]]>As for people keeping their numbers and moving, that works both ways.. She could have had a local cell number and not live in the city and won the grand fraudulently..
The radio station under good will should give them some concert tickets or something.. And they should drop vonage if they do not like being routed through New York..
]]>And when your internet goes down with VOIP, how do you call to get it fixed?
You couldn't go to a neighbor's house? A pay phone (remember them)???
]]>That's a really strange thing imo to block all non local callers... these days with people moving around but keeping their phone numbers, I know quite a few people who have a cell phone with a number from the city they lived in years ago.
]]>