XBox 360: The iPhone of gaming platforms. (Guy throws a hammer into a screen)

Finally common ground for Microsoft and Apple to make up.

@EdenBabararacucudada: There was a story awhile back where the consumerist editors took the opportunity to slam Microsoft for the RROD debacle in an E3 article as well, but I don't remember it. Apparently consumerist is starting to emulate slashdot - anything Microsoft deserves bashing, regardless of whether or not the story is actually accurate (and, it won't be).

Anyway, it doesn't really matter which one you buy, as a large number of games are on both Microsoft and Sony's consoles. As for the ads, Microsoft will gleefully throw in as many as it can get away with in any format available regardless of consumer reactions, since people will throw money at them regardless.

Also, for what it's worth, in my experience the PS3's online capabilities are very similar to the 360s but much more cost-effective. I can't think of many features the 360 has that the PS3 doesn't when it comes to online gaming, aside from more ads and a higher price. Then again I mostly use it for straight gaming and that's about it.

I'd be fine with ads, if they new interface wasn't SO DAMN SLOW.

I have to be honest, compared to having the Newest Game Add-ons list only containing two or three entries that aren't just individual songs for Rock Band or Guitar Hero, I really don't know how bothered I could possibly get over these ads.

Quantity of titles =/= value, it equals selection.

Every console has exclusives that I want to play, so "value" doesn't even enter into the equation.

The butt-raping of my wallet AFTER purchase, however, does.

I have Silverlight installed on my MBP.

I don't think I've ever used it outside of Microsoft sites. It's just another example of Microsoft trying to reinvent the wheel and gain presence in another market, rather than innovate.

Just like Bing!, another product no one asked for or need. Oh, it's not a search engine, it's a decision engine!

Oooookay, guys.

My friends suck at Street Figher IV.

(of course, I play SFIV on the PS3, and I don't wear a headset even when on the 360 UNLESS I'm playing with friends, but the reasoning stands!)

By that definition, most laptops would not be able to game wirelessly, and yet I see people do it all the time. So I don't think that's true.

If this was a limitation of WiFi or USB, converting to either of these standards would set the same limitation upon the bridge.

A bridge converts a wired network to a wireless one. It does not improve the WiFi standard.

@Tzepish: you can buy many non microsoft wireless adapters that work perfectly. Or get an ethernet over power adapter (for like 100 bucks) which runs well, or run a cable.

@Saboth: The Ads are so they can keep it at 50/yr. Bandwidth, server costs, datacenters, programmers, etc all cost money, and with energy costs going up, so are those costs (network dont run on air). Ad's supplement these costs so you can keep paying that 50/yr. Has the cost of XBL gone up since xbox came out? I dont recall a price jump and I know that costs have gone up (I work as a systems admin and we are constantly trying to get energy costs down for clients)

Dude, you're a Mac user. You do know that QT is generally despised in Windows, right? You have to understand that there is a difference. While us Mac users think QT is great (I like VLC better), it's just not the same for Wintels.
If they used QT or Flash, there would be no difference in the spam you'd get. Duh. It doesn't matter what you use to deliver it, so.. I realize you were thinking of this from a strictly QT vs. Silverlight on the computer type of thing, in which case QT is probably worse considering what I've heard from PC users about it being somewhat overbearing when it comes to updates and uninstalling. However, I wouldn't know, because MS doesn't support Silverlight for PPCs, so there's nothing to compare it to.

I laughed.

@Vejadu: LG Networking Blu-Ray player. Upconverts DVDs and you have access to Netflix, CinemaNow, and YouTube. I love that thing. I'm hoping they add Hulu to the list.

Now, as you know, I'm not a big Microsoft fan. In fact, I despise Microsoft. Mainly because I've used Macs for my entire life. But I've gotten the fuck over by Apple on their hardware more than I've gotten the fuck over by MS because.. well.. I actually buy Apple products. Apple is shit when it wants to be, let me tell you, and in that case, you're NOT getting what you paid for, but I digress from what I really wanted to say...
You can talk about the PS3 and Xbox having an equal value, but that is not even close to the case. Personally, I would pay $30 just for Netflix streaming alone, but hey, that can be done on your PC or Mactel. Since I have a PPC, I don't have that luxury on my Mac. So, there's your live subscription price taken care of. Secondly, the used games on 360 are ALWAYS cheaper than the PS3 version. I've bought about 20 used games for 360, and they are often $5-$10 cheaper than the PS3 version. That means I've saved $100 on games at the very least by having a 360.
Where is the functionality found elsewhere? A PS3? That's MORE expensive, DUPLICATE functionality. No other device can play 360 games. There is no getting nickel and dimed to death over duplicate functionality because that functionality does not exist elsewhere or is more expensive via other options.
Finally, all of my friends own 360s, not PS3s. If I want to actually play games online with people I like and not fucking retards, then I basically have to have a 360.
Was the 360 my first choice? Hell no, I fucking hate MS, but Sony's option is more expensive and basically subsidizing Blu-Ray which I and most other consumers do not consider a significant difference over upconverted DVD, and considering the community support of the 360, it was a no-brainer as to which console to buy. Now, if Apple had a console... oh wait, they did. Thanks again Apple.

The same way you uninstall IE from Windows? (okay, I know, in the EU Windows ships without IE...)

@Tiber:

Strangely enough, before Flash took over the market, QuickTime did have simple flash-like features like sprites and separate text tracks.

Apple languished on the interactive aspects of quicktime, and for a long time Flash didn't bother with video. Now flash is the king of interactive content.

Wow... PSN has all those things too. I'm not arguing that XBL has a few features that PSN doesn't, but those that you listed are not among them.

@Levi Martin: You understand that there are already ads on the dashboard for Gold subscribers, right?

@EdenBabararacucudada: Yeah, I don't understand why this warranted an article. They're letting the ads use Silverlight now, which is neat, but the ads have always been there. Whoopy-doo?

@Vejadu: You do know you can just play against your friends, right?

I'm no fanboy (I started out with a Wii and opted for the 360 later), but for me, the tipping point was backwards compatibility. I never owned a Gamecube, and having a Wii meant I could play Pikmin and Metroid and all the games I hadn't had the chance to play in the last generation. Previously, I had owned both a PS2 (two, actually- one American, one Japanese) and an Xbox. By the time I got around to looking at the 360 and the PS3, Sony had already eliminated the option for backwards compatibility on the PS3, whereas the 360 would still play virtually every Xbox game I owned. Add to that the fact that the bulk of my friends are on Xbox Live, rather than Playstation Home, and that clinched the deal. Sure, Playstation Home is free, and that's great- but if everyone I know already has an Xbox, and those are the people I want to game with, a free online option where I don't know anyone doesn't really do me much good.

I think a lot of people underestimate the impact that has, incidentally. Sony was slower out of the gate in moving its console, and as a result, fewer people own a PS3. Now, when someone is thinking about getting a new console, who are they going to ask about it? Their friends. And if most or all of those friends own 360s, that's almost invariably going to be enough to get the person doing the shopping to buy one too. The PS3's price doesn't help matters any, but if more people owned them, it would matter a lot less. People would be willing to pay more for the ability to play with their friends online if the PS3 were the dominant console, but very few people are going to shell out more money up front for a console that none of their friends have, meaning they can't play together online, can't swap games, et cetera. Yeah, blu-ray is nice, but I'm not buying a console to watch DVDs or videos, and we didn't even have an HDTV at the time I got mine, anyway, so it was a moot point. I was buying it to play with people I knew, though, and I doubt I'm the only one for whom that was a major consideration.

I'm with you. I end up playing pc games more often than xbox, because I can't stand to hear some 12 year old tell me about how great he is for killing 3 guys in a row in his screech voice. They ought to segregate the online service so all the 8-13 year olds play together...14-18, 19-25, 25-30..etc.

Ive read articles that the 360's upscaling feature is absolutely terrible. Even $30 regular dvd players with upscaling beat it in side by side tests.

Yes, and on the Wii and PS3, it isn't even worth the price they charge.

Also, typically, I pay $40 or less a year for XBL - but it's worth every penny of the $50...

@Trai_Dep:

Sirius does this. Cable does this. Pay websites do this, even. Consumerist exists because its content is monitized by driving subscribers toward CU, an NPO that charges subscribers for un-ad-biased consumer analysis. If it failed to add value to CU, it would be shut down. It is pure advertorial media content.

If you consider "media" the Xbox market - and I do - it's not at all unexpected for them to institute a hybrid pay/ad model. It's also fair to compare models with Consumerist's to point out the relative C/B. I'm not sure why you characterize my post as whining, or why you're sexist, but I suppose you're free to do what you like.

@Trai_Dep:

I believe in "getting what you pay for" but I'm not sure that applies. TCOO is about the same from Xbox to PS3, considering a typical basket of supplies; I was describing the cost configuration choices made by Microsoft and Sony.

People hack the Xbox 360 almost exclusively to play pirated games.

Your opinion, not mine. My ridiculously large library of games tells me otherwise.

I'll tell one one thing that I have used modchips for: To play games you just can't buy. Either because they are out of region (not applicable to the 360) or because they aren't in print, or because they are just such a pain in the ass to order you give up.

Example: Rez for the PS2. I finally found it for sale in a store about 2 years after I played it. I suppose by then it had experienced a "revival"--something I can only imagine happened because of pirated copies of the game floating about.

While some of those reasons might not be wholly legal, they are absolutely reasonable to the common man. And they aren't even related to backing anything up.

I'll also say I modded the 360 simply because I've no consoles I *haven't* modded, save for my NES. Of course, console modding was also my job several years ago.

For the 360 specifically I can give a reason that doesn't even include playing a DVD-R: Your drive fails and you don't want to pay M$ big $$$ to repair it. Using mods you'll be able to replace the drive yourself for nothing more than the cost of parts (which can be as low as about $30).

wireless adapters only allow traffic to flow in one direction at a time, whereas a bridge allows traffic to flow in both directions, which is required for online gaming. so, in essence, the bridge is the equivalent of 2 adapters (& priced accordingly).

Ha - fanboy flame wars are funny. Geez, teh innernetz feature MOVING ads, that sometimes obscure what I'm trying to see! I'm not paying for that any more!!!

@Corporate_guy: Yea, 22 million as to xbox's 30 million. Useless blu-ray? you must mean the failed HD-DVD add-on.

Don't try and justify your idiot choice of a console, if ANY high end consumer electronic had the same failure rate as the xbox360 it would go down in flame and fail, lucky for MS, they have a bunch of idiot followers to take it up the ass. i couldn't image samsung LCDs having a 30% failure rate or something of the like.

Now comes the question of if the ads will be from a discernible server or url so that will work.

My point is that if you're talking console to console, the "free BluRay player" argument no longer holds water - it's like me saying, "but I can watch Netflix streaming!" as an argument. Sure, it's spiffy, but it has nothing to do with gaming. And with BluRay players easily found under $200 - and dropping - that little advantage for the PS3 waning. (Much like the "free DVD player" aspect of old with the PS2.)

Game to game, it's a higher priced console and the cost-savings more than makes up for the cost of live. Not to mention, PS3's live system leaves a lot to be desired compared to XBox Live. People can bash all they want, but XBox Live is an incredibly well put-together product. No extra codes, an easy way to find all of your friends at once, easy ways to track game progress and a super-easy interface. I'm on multiple platforms and I'm not just talking smack.

I've also seen the advertising thus far - and it's been pretty low-key and very easy to avoid.

Bias and lack of understanding confirmed. No one is going to argue for a 5-10 dollar usb adapter when it costs 100 bucks.

30% failure rate, $$$ for online and now ads... XBOX360 is the bestest!

morons.

I personally prefer City of Heroes' approach to in-game advertisements. There's an entry in the Options menu that turns on in-game ads, so its entirely opt-in. I've never gone near that feature.

right now, ps3 has almost 400 titles. [www.us.playstation.com]

wii has over 700 titles. [www.nintendo.com]

360 has over 1100 titles. [www.xbox.com]

in terms of variety & choice, it seems to me that the ps3 isn't a very good value.

Let me preface this by saying I'm 40 years old and have been gaming since the late 70's so I'm not new to gaming. As long as the ads do not slow down the dashboard or cause any kinds of performance issues than the ads are fine. The $50 I pay a year for Live is a small amount compared to the value that is offered by the service. I've had the PS3 "free" service for 6 months and I got what I paid for, nothing of value. I experienced huge lag, terrible download speeds and any issue I had with the service was almost impossible to fix since Sony would blame everyone else for the connection issues and pass the buck off to my internet provider. 5 hours to download a 1 gig demo from the Playstation store vs 20 minutes for the same demo from Live, not counting the additional time it takes to install a demo after downloading on the PS3, where Live installs as it downloads. And again the "Free" built in Wi-fi for the PS3 is one of the worst quality devices I ever used, considering my wi-fi connection dropped continually while using the PS3. Never had the problem with my $99 wi-fi adapter for the 360.

Reminds me of the letter I got from Charter cable last year explaining how them monitoring my web browsing and delivering up targeted ads would actually be good for me. And we know where that ended up.

That is a recent development(I used to work for AT&T Broadband, before they were swallowed by Comcast), and it's usually less than a dollar per subscriber for the large, multi-channel networks. Also, this is not the case for every network. In addition, many cable companies OWN networks -- Encore and Starz were owned by AT&T when I worked there, and Comcast owns G4.

And as you said, Premium channels cost more because there is no advertising. Of course, I don't think anyone buys HBO or Showtime for movies anymore. They want True Blood and Dexter.

So, I'm sorry I simplified the concept of cable TV, but I think people need to realize that very little of their cable bill goes to paying for channels. Even if half the company had cable, the paltry amount that networks take in from subscriber fees would not be enough to create a more than single season of one or two shows.

Just like advertising in video games themselves. That's fine. But lower the price of the game. I don't want to pay $60 for a game just to see ads. It's a rip off.

I like how you also imply that Blu-Ray has nothing to do with the added cost of the PS3. You can pick and choose all day certain components of the unit and relate them to why you *think* the PS3 is over priced, but that won't change the reality of all the other features you missed or purposefully ignored only in an attempt to further your own cause.

You may end up as a great politician or sales executive, but don't try to shovel your shit over here.

•I don't own either the 360 or the PS3. Just an XBOX and a PS2.

More to the point, if you hate consumer-agitating content, I can see why you might not like to read CU articles. But - besides whining akin to a spoiled girl - why are you here?

However, you forgot that some channels PAY the cable company to be delivered (homeshopping) with a percentage of sales that come in from the zip code(s) that the cable company has control over.

Lame only xbox games with ads I like are the ones that come with free games with my gold account. Like Dash of Destruction from doritos, was lame but it was free. 1 vs 100 sprint ads don't both me. Its just when I go through the menus and see Wendy's and a bunch of other lame products with crappy themes I don't care about.

Advertisers need to partner with xbox live to make more gaming stuff free or at a reduced price like "hey watch this commercial and rate it and get 50% of Gears of War 2 DLC..

If you're saying that you're not home enough to play online with other players, then you'd be a prime candidate to be a Silver - FREE - XBox 360 member. You know, the time to play all that offline content games have. (The stuff they design for the super-busy gamer.) If you're saying you have to do FPS Online stuff, then you do have to ask yourself if the ~$5 per month not to stand in a lobby and jump into a 16 or 32-person game right away is enough for your busy lifestyle.

If you're saying you're too busy to know how to learn how to read a message that says it's time to renew Gold, I don't know what to tell you...

I understand that. But you must understand that the reasons for modding will vary by console. People hack PSPs so they can use emulators. People buy flash carts for the Nintendo DS so they don't have to carry a collection of games around, so they can use it as a media player, so they can use homebrew like web browsers, etc. People hacked the original Xbox so they could install XBMC and use the Xbox as a cheap media center PC.

People hack the Xbox 360 almost exclusively to play pirated games.

well, yes, but haven't we known that since 1985? it's exactly that business model that put nintendo on top of the console market for over a decade. conversely, releasing a "bells & whistles" box has never really worked. consider the dreamcast - that console was 5 years ahead of its competition & it failed miserably. the neo-geo, while popular with hardcore gamers, has never been able to capture significant home market share b/c of its obscene price point. the 3DO - again, awesome architecture, but overall failure.

I do see the rare "buy a coke" ad, but 9 times out of 10, the ads are for other games.

Microsoft is CHARGING some customers (Gold subscribers) $50 a year for access to the service. In addition to that, they are showing ads. So, they are "charging" twice for the same service.

Consumerist "charges" for the content by displaying ads for consumer reports.

Consumer reports charges for their magazines and full access to their site, but once you are paying, there are no ads (except for ads pushing their own products). They aren't getting paid twice for the same service.

It shocks me how few people realize this, and how many people don't realize how often paying customers are bombarded with ads.

In most cases, the cable companies get charged by each of the media giants to carry all of their channels for a small monthly fee per subscriber.

Now, to be fair, the total of all those monthly fees, per subscriber, is probably small when compared to the $80/mo you'll pay for cable.

The "Premium" Channels are just a way to pay for access to the movies that makes up for the lack of additional advertising revenue. You also pay a premium to get quicker access to the movies.

Like I said, Microsoft charges you an arm and a leg for accessories.

Wow. How long have you worked for Microsoft's Marketing division?

$99 for a USB WiFi adapter is highway robbery.
$99 for a 60 GB HD is highway robbery.
$149 for a 120 GB HD is (yes) highway robbery.

A 500 GB 2.5" hard drive can be found AT RETAIL for $100. A USB WiFi adapter can be found AT RETAIL for $50 or less. The PS3 comes with built-in wifi and can use any 2.5" hard drive if you want to increase the storage capacity.

The 360 does have some good games, but so does the PS3. The profit margin on 360 accessories is outrageous.

AGAIN:

You don't know how cable works. No one seems to.

You don't pay for the channels. You pay for delivery of a feed. Most channels do not get money from you directly.

The ones you do pay directly for -- HBO, Showtime, PPV -- they feature no ads. At least, not in the middle of content.

It shocks me how few people realize this, and how many people think it is okay to bombard paying customers with ads.

i don't really care that the ads are there, i just wish it translated into cheaper games.

You don't know how cable works. No one seems to.

You don't pay for the channels. You pay for delivery of a feed. Most channels do not get money from you directly.

The ones you do pay directly for -- HBO, Showtime, PPV -- they feature no ads. At least, not in the middle of content.

It shocks me how few people realize this, and how many people think it is okay to bombard paying customers with ads.

@NotEd:
Oh, and if I did open it I'd want Netflix working, so I would have to pay for it.
Luckily I have a Roku (also a gift), so I don't really need the Xbox...

However if this is for SILVER subscribers only then I have no issues with it.

Its a wait and see approach with this, but I am NOT happy with this vague announcement.

@mac-phisto:

Right, but a TCOO analysis takes into account typical usage. Your average console user has all the controls and several accessories, the wireless dongle for the Xbox being the most notorious/common addon. Understood that some users can get away without the "extras" but that's not the thrust of what we're trying to accomplish. Rather, what you're really doing is highlighting the point that more effective console profit models rely on a-la-carte accessories and a loss-leading box.

Play my games

Play my Hi-Def movies (waited until the format war was over)

Stream my audio to my receiver

Now had HD-DVD won I still would have had a harder time buying a 360 BECAUSE MS decided to make the HD-DVD drive an add-on. I was looking for less devices / cords at my entertainment center...

Now I canceled cable and use PlayOn for Podcasts and Hulu on my PS3 (it works on the 360 and soon the Wii).

The quality is crappier, but I don't watch much regular TV anyway. Just the Daily Show and a couple of newscasts. I do LOVE the Blu-ray movies on my 1080p TV w/ 7.1 surround.

Best of all, my gaming service is free and after I set my friends up like the above, they mock the people that pay for live. Then again MS did better on the X360 version than the Windows version. GFWL sucks.

@dadelus: I can't forget. I'm wearing Under Armour.

Y'know, I won an Xbox 360 and have never opened it because:
a. I got a PS3 for Xmas last year, and don't have much time to even play it.
b. KI didn't want to pay for Xbox live.

I really just got to get off my ass and sell it...

Cable TV

Most people pay $500+/yr for cable TV service and still get ads. Multiple revenue streams.

your argument is like saying it's cheaper to buy a cadillac than it is to buy a honda & turn it into a cadillac. sure it is, but your know what? they both have 4 wheels & get you around town.

The PS3's online community isn't as bad as everyone says it is. All the online games I've played have gone smoothly and without any problems. I've played the same Online games for both systems [such as Resident Evil 5], and saw no difference. It's comparable to the 360. Then again, maybe my bias is due to the fact that I have more friends on the PS3 than 360.

Also, I don't have ethernet cables, available for my consoles, so I have to use wireless. Paying $50 a year, for two years, plus $99 for a wireless adapter for $200 total for wireless online gaming is totally not worth it when I play online more on my PS3 for free.

@SgtBeavis: And how could you forget the new Dodge Caliber!!!

@Stephmo: Exactly...its related to the dashboard, not necessarily games (although some games do have ads in them).

When any system starts to go the direction of enough ads to compete with TV, then that's when I jump ship. Since I'm on the dashboard for roughly 2.3 seconds, this won't impact me much if at all.

Now, if they force me to view an ad like Sony does with their Blu-Ray discs I buy from their studio...then wow. Looks like I'd be out an Xbox at that point.

@Unsolicited Advice: Surely you are right. I'm not arguing that a more customizable PS3 console would sell better. That Sony has allways been somewhat bullheaded in their approach to their "vision" also cannot be argued :).

When faced with a choice to pay 350 now, and then collect accessories over the next year or wait a year for a game console most gamers would choose the instant gratification. I did, and then got the PS3 later.

I just get tired of people not doing the math, and seeing the TCOO.

Secondly, the ads on Xbox Live actually have "enhanced" my experience in the past, because they're usually ads for Xbox Live content. They have made me aware of content that I would otherwise be unaware of.

You're absolutely right. And that's the reason everyone I know bought a VCR as well.

HAND defending your opinion with that one.

How exactly does modding give you any benefit that could not be attained by simply not signing in to Xbox Live (which is in effect what you'd accomplish by modding)?

No, the benefit of modding is that it enables you to play games without paying for them.

In this country? Yes.

@TakingItSeriously:

Sure, but a wise company would have reconfigured its strategy at this point. Sony is apparently unwilling or unable to recognize that the up-front cost is a big barrier to install, and that peripherals should be driving their profitability. They're paying the price for their long failure to compromise with revolting developers and a lack of market penetration.

I love the people that spout off about the XBox 360 being "cheaper" than the PS3.

I have both.

Things the original PS3 came with for 600 (when I bought it) (with the associated 360 cost)
2 Rechargable controllers
360 = $80 (1 controller +2 Charge & Play packs)
Wireless Networking
360 = $100
60 GB HDD
360 = $100 (base comes with 20GB)

So add that $280 to the base cost of the 360 ($350) and you come up with over $600, and then add on the HD DVD player at $180.

Now granted if you "hunt around" you can save some $$$ on the peripherals for the 360, but this list just proves how the "price war" just isn't a viable argument.

I am neither a 360 nor PS3 fanboi. Each console has it's advantages ... I have both and enjoy using both.

Just getting tired of people coming up and saying "ZOMG teh PS3 is so expensive!!!"

Yeah, but as someone that pays $50 a year for xbox live gold, I shouldn't be subjected to ads. They can bombard silver members all they want for all I care.

@OminousG: Bingo. 13 month cards are always popping up for ~$30.

My Live has been full of ads for years... and no one pays $50 a year for gold.

I've been reading Consumer Reports or years now so the 2 ads on the page they run are just fine.

MS wants to stick ads over the dashboard. Not that I play the 360 I'll stick to the wii and PS3 thank you.

@Stephmo: And there are already ads for upcoming games and downloadable content when you log in. They're not obtrusive because you can skip right past them if you want (you have to choose to watch them), but I really like being able to look at the trailers for upcoming games in their full HD glory on my 56" TV rather than watching crappy streaming vids on IGN.

I wish there was some sort of customization that could be done where if we paid (the live membership), we could opt out of stuff we don't like/want/need.

What's the perspective of a site that had to move from an ad-supported model to a kind of ad-based model? At this point, isn't Consumerist's relationship to Consumer's Union essentially an advertorial structure where this content is designed to generate interest in CU products? You guys should know better than anyone else that ad support is one of the few proven (to the extent that a few rare successes "prove" something)way of monetizing content access.

If your issue is with the PR speak, well, fine. They're focused on the positive of ad support, which is that it will provide the funding basis for new features and content. Obviously the negative is that profit is the real goal for Microsoft. But profit and superior service aren't opposed goals, are they?

For Wii - there are only a handful of games with on-line play and getting on-line play is ridiculous (separate, long game-only codes).

PS3's online gaming is free, but look at how much you paid for the console vs. the 360. There's at least 2 years worth of "free" gaming in the price difference. You can say "free BluRay" player all you want, but you didn't get "free BluRay discs" either. And the interface for online gameplay? Meh.

We can talk about the ads, but don't act like you can't get online at all without the fee. You can easily get online without the $50. And what Wii and PS3 offer "for free" aren't exactly comparable. Plus, my "Wii Shopping Channel" isn't exactly a bastion of non-consumerism...nor was that M&M Racing game that they sold...

Not that it isn't annoying already.

That reminds me, I need to go buy Fight Night 4.

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