var json_comments = new Array("
\"user-pic\"
Skater009
July 31, 2009 9:19 PM
Moderate | Flag for review

Nice ONE

Reply
","","","
\"user-pic\"
LatherRinseRepeat
July 31, 2009 9:25 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

Maybe this will wake some people up and make them realize that they don't truly own what they buy.

DRM and closed systems are bad for consumers.

Reply
4 replies
\"user-pic\"
italianscallion33
August 1, 2009 2:40 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@LatherRinseRepeat: Didn't the government or someone decide DRM must die?

Reply
\"user-pic\"
Corporate_guy
July 31, 2009 11:15 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@LatherRinseRepeat: And this lawsuit could kill book drm. Basically we are all going to benefit if this kid wins. You have to give him props for finding a legit way to actually be damaged by Amazons' actions.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
l951b951
July 31, 2009 10:13 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@LatherRinseRepeat: But...but...but....What about all the rampant piracy that will happen if all our digital items aren't weighted down with DRM? Won't someone please think of the poor CEO's? The only way they can keep from starving is thanks to DRM....Apparently.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
magic8ball
August 1, 2009 5:00 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@l951b951: Yeah, exactly! Shouldn't someone be taking measures to stop all the piracy of books that kids are assigned to read for school? I totally pirated copies of Animal Farm and The Grapes of Wrath because I just loved them so freakin' much. Oh, wait, no I didn't -- I hated those books and didn't even keep the copies I had to buy for school.

Reply
","
\"user-pic\"
Gokuhouse
July 31, 2009 9:25 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

I can understand where this person is coming from. I wouldn't sue over it though, but I would expect a replacement hard cover book to be overnighted to me for the inconvenience.

Reply
3 replies
\"user-pic\"
ChuckECheese
August 2, 2009 3:16 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@Gokuhouse: The kid should totally sue over it. Just think how good it'll look on his college entrance essays when he writes, \"And one time on summer vacation I sued Amazon.\"

Reply
\"user-pic\"
thezone
July 31, 2009 9:34 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@Gokuhouse: I would sue over this. Ownership rights are important. Without this lawsuit Amazon would be able to do it again for some other text. We should own what we buy whether it is physical or digital.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
outlulz
August 1, 2009 1:41 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@thezone: You'd have to sue almost every software, music, and movie company then. All those ToS you skip through states you're only renting the product and they have the right to revoke it at any time. It's becoming the standard.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
RedSonSuperDave
August 1, 2009 6:15 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@outlulz: Yes, but to be fair, those ToSes and EULAs you \"skip through\" are illegal and mostly unenforceable, since they conflict with American copyright law, especially the \"Fair Use\" section.

[www.copyright.gov]

Reply
\"user-pic\"
rickn99
August 1, 2009 2:41 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

Citations to the numerous legal cases that have stricken down the DRM portions of the EULAs and TOS's?


Otherwise, \"illegal and mostly unenforceable\" is an unsubstantiated opinion and not relevant.


As it stands today, Amazon had no choice but to remove the items that they illegally sold. Being the recipient of an illegally sold item NEVER entitles you to keep the property -- it gets returned to the owner.


You can sue the seller over losses, but since Amazon refunded 100% of the actual cost, what cost is this kid assigning to his notes?

Reply
","
\"user-pic\"
nybiker
July 31, 2009 9:25 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

Did each page of the book need a 'reflection' or was there supposed to be a 'reflection' for every 100 pages? If it's the latter, how pages are in the book that it wouldn't be possible to rewrite his reflections. OTOH, if it's for every page, well, at least he has a better excuse than the dog ate his homework. But, then again, I would suggest he buy a paper copy of the book and get cracking on starting again with the per page reflections.

BTW, my comment in no way should be taken to mean that I think his suit shouldn't continue. I just think that since the work is for an AP class, he still needs to get the work done. My guess is that whatever college he's applying to will want to see all the work.

Reply
8 replies
\"user-pic\"
italianscallion33
August 1, 2009 2:42 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@nybiker: AP classes are taken in high school - he'll take an AP test at the end of this year that may give him college credit if he passes. His performance in the AP class doesn't have anything to do with how many course credits he can use it for in college, besides the fact that if he bombs the class he is likely to bomb the test. But still, a college isn't going to look at work you did in your AP class. They don't care. They just want the number you got on the test (1-5).

Reply
\"user-pic\"
magic8ball
August 1, 2009 5:01 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@italianscallion33: The grade he gets in the class still figures into his GPA, which colleges do care about.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
RecordStoreToughGuy_starcommandseries.com
July 31, 2009 10:15 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@nybiker: Interesting point. This is why most teachers assign the same editions of the same book, because page divisions could fall differently for different editions.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
ChuckECheese
August 2, 2009 3:12 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@RecordStoreToughGuy: Isn't it more important if teacher comprehends the narrative of the story rather than the page numbers?

Reply
\"user-pic\"
HogwartsAlum
July 31, 2009 11:02 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@RecordStoreToughGuy: In college, we would sometimes have people who had an earlier edition or one without annotations, which the professor would sometimes use in his/her material. That person (sometimes it was me) would then have to con someone into making them a copy of said notes for whatever assignment they were needed for.

I couldn't always get the annotated version; the bookstore always ran out and it took WEEKS to get more. By the time they got them in, you were already halfway through the semester. So it was easier just to go to the used bookstore. That always used to make me so mad!

Reply
\"user-pic\"
RecordStoreToughGuy_starcommandseries.com
August 1, 2009 5:41 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@HogwartsAlum: I know right? I got stuck using an outdated German book for two semesters because the bookstore didn't order enough. Also, I didn't want to pay the $150 or so for new book package when the only thing that had really changed was updating Deutschmarks to Euros. >.<

Reply
\"user-pic\"
azntg
July 31, 2009 9:49 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@nybiker: While I think that this is one of those \"borderline\" lawsuits, I can still understand.

See, some of us like to write in shorthand and make tight page references.

If you get the same book published by a different company, you'd be hard pressed to find a version with the same formatting and page numbering. Once you're about 100 pages in, you're kinda hosed at that point.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
corellia40
July 31, 2009 9:44 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@nybiker: He was probably taking notes on the book as he read and was planning to compile them into his assignment on each 100 pages. Now he has to go through and match up what he wrote to the relevant portions of the book - which probably won't take as long as reading the first time, but I'm sure is pretty annoying.

Reply
","
\"user-pic\"
socalrob of the 24 and a half century
July 31, 2009 9:26 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

Will the lawsuit have a leg to stand on considering that all payments for the book have been returned by amazon? Especially since the lawsuit is towards amazon rather than the company that illegally sold the book... that is unless i read wrong...

Reply
5 replies
\"user-pic\"
silver-bolt
August 1, 2009 2:39 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@socalrob of the 24 and a half century: I steal your car, take it for a joy ride around town, but return it before morning, with a topped off tank of gas, and cash re-compensation for the mileage. I would still be arrested for GTA, and you could sue.

Companies have successfully sued for non-material breach of contract. Trespassing is a crime without harm.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
Kishi
July 31, 2009 11:25 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@socalrob of the 24 and a half century: I think this student also has a claim that, in taking the book back, Amazon invalidated his work so he suffered damages more than just the price of the book.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
Baccus83
July 31, 2009 9:50 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@socalrob of the 24 and a half century: It's an issue of ownership rights. Just because a book is still digital does not give Amazon the right to take it from you. Once you paid for it, it's effectively your property. If I sold you something which turned out later to be unauthorized, I cannot walk into your house and take it from you without your consent.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
supercereal
July 31, 2009 10:02 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@genegemperline:

If I sold you something which turned out later to be unauthorized, I cannot walk into your house and take it from you without your consent.
People get their homes raided and have their counterfeit goods confiscated all the time, regardless of whether or know they were purchased under the assumption that they were legit. Granted, that's law enforcement doing the raiding and not your average Joe.
Reply
\"user-pic\"
kapow!
July 31, 2009 10:20 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@supercereal:

The key words here are \"law enforcement\". There was no warrant, no notice, no nothing. Amazon had no right to go in and effectively *steal* his property. They should have gone through proper legal channels first.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
MikeHerbst
July 31, 2009 10:09 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@supercereal:
Not without a warrant they don't.

If Amazon wants to get a judge to sign-off on a \"search and seize\" warrant for \"illegally distributed digital media\", then fine. But they didn't do that, they took the action without the benefit of legal cover or oversight. I'm constantly amazed at how easily some people surrender their rights.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
thezone
July 31, 2009 9:37 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@socalrob of the 24 and a half century: I think the lawsuit has a leg to stand on. This would be like buying a book and someone from the company later walks up to you grabs the book and hands you a check for it. Amazon hacked the person's property without permission. That should be illegal.

Reply
","","","","
\"user-pic\"
suburbancowboy
July 31, 2009 9:32 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

The main thing I hate about the kindle (and digital downloads in general) is that I love lending books to people. If I like a book, I like to let others get the same enjoyment that I did. I also would like the option to sell anything I buy if I should ever be in a situation where I need a few bucks to get by.

Reply
3 replies
\"user-pic\"
Kishi
July 31, 2009 11:26 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@suburbancowboy: Lending books to people? What are you, a communist? Don't you know that letting other people listen to your music or read your books is what's killing America?!?!?

@RecordStoreToughGuy: Yeah, that's a really big part of why I can't get behind something like the Kindle. I know it's hypothetically more convenient, but I just love having an actual book.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
RecordStoreToughGuy_starcommandseries.com
July 31, 2009 10:17 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@suburbancowboy: I just like books, period. There's something about the heft, the feel of the pages, and even the smell of a new book that a slick piece of technology fails to capture. And I like gadgets.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
sponica
August 1, 2009 5:30 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@RecordStoreToughGuy: yes, and with technology i get massive ADD. perhaps it wouldn't be a problem with the kindle, but whenever I try to read my online newsmag that i unwillingly have a subscription to, I find myself doing other things.

The tactile sensation of turning the pages keeps me tuned into the book. And it's easier for me to meet my goal.

Reply
","","
\"user-pic\"
Smashville
July 31, 2009 9:36 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@linkura: Blame the OP! BINGO!

Reply
1 replies
\"user-pic\"
ShirtNinja
July 31, 2009 10:16 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@Smashville: You brightened my day considerably. Thanks for that! :)

Reply
","
\"user-pic\"
eelmonger
July 31, 2009 9:37 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

Wouldn't different copies of the book have different pagination anyways? I'm sure as long as he covers all the relevant points in the book, the teacher isn't going to go \"Hey, the rat torture didn't happen on page 234, F!\"

Reply
6 replies
\"user-pic\"
ChuckECheese
August 2, 2009 3:09 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@eelmonger: True, but if he's like most students, he will have forgotten what he read and wrote about 15 minutes after he did it.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
MMD
August 1, 2009 1:59 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@eelmonger: Citing page numbers isn't the problem...the problem is that is if the student made a note that a passage he wanted to quote in his paper is on page 74, he can no longer just go to page 74 on his Kindle. He has to find the equivalent of page 74 in some other edition of the book. If he can access the notes at all anymore (that's one detail that I'm still fuzzy on - can he still read the notes, or did they get deleted/screwed up by Amazon?).

Reply
\"user-pic\"
OneTrickPony
August 1, 2009 2:17 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@MMD: If his notes are so vague and his recollection of the actual book so poor that he can't, with a little effort, match up the notes to actual page numbers in a different version of the text, I'd argue he's missed the point of the exercise.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
Rectilinear Propagation
August 7, 2009 5:12 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@OneTrickPony: Isn't the whole point of writing notes that you're going to forget something?

Reply
\"user-pic\"
SquareBubbles
August 1, 2009 6:54 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@MMD: They should still be in his My Clippings.txt file, but only the note will be there as the Location ID will now be useless.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
jmurphy42
July 31, 2009 9:43 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@eelmonger: Indeed. As a former HS teacher myself, I'd be shocked if his teacher wasn't very understanding about this.

OTOH, the kind of teacher who assigns summer homework might not be the most empathetic one in the school. I've taught AP myself, but I could never bring myself to infringe on summer break, no matter how much material I needed to cram in.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
MauriceCallidice
July 31, 2009 9:47 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@jmurphy42: If only I'd had you for AP English! IIRC we had to read at least 8 (of a possible 12) novels and right \"journals\" about all of them before the school year started. Ugh.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
sponica
August 1, 2009 5:32 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@MauriceCallidice: i had to read beowulf, grendel, and the fountainhead. they gave up on the journals for summer reading as nobody really wrote them. instead we had to take a test on the books within the 1st week of school. but seriously, the fountainhead made me HATE to read.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
Smashville
July 31, 2009 9:50 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@MauriceCallidice: I'm not a spelling nerd...but I do find your use of \"right\" both funny and ironic.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
katstermonster
July 31, 2009 11:39 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@Smashville: And...a little bit concerning. I'd like to think one had learned that by AP English.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
Rectilinear Propagation
August 7, 2009 5:11 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@katstermonster: I will sometimes find myself writing a homonym, the wrong tense, wrong verb, etc. instead of the correct word not because I think the wrong word is right but because I've changed my mind about how I'm going to say something halfway through a sentence or because I'm multi-tasking. Being sleepy doesn't help either.

If I were Maurice I'd have made that mistake because I would have been thinking about having to cram a bunch of journal entries in 'right' before school started.

Reply
","","","","","
\"user-pic\"
coren
July 31, 2009 9:47 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

Not that this isn't a bad thing, but his individual plight isn't really any worse than anyone else who lost their books in this manner. It's not as though the content of the book is changing, nor would his thoughts on the book - the pages are just in a different distribution.

Reply
4 replies
\"user-pic\"
MMD
August 1, 2009 2:01 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@coren: The difference is that as a student completing an assignment, he's accountable for reading the book by a specific deadline. His ability to use his personal intellectual property was also damaged. I don't think you can say that about everyone who \"owned\" this book.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
coren
August 1, 2009 2:19 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@MMD: His money was also refunded, wasn't it? Allowing him to download another ebook or go buy it in a physical copy (or get it from a library). An inconvenience, to be sure, but he also has until early September to finish this assignment, so there's time yet.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
KiLE
July 31, 2009 10:05 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@coren: \"The case seeks unspecified damages for all buyers of e-books that Amazon deleted from the Kindle as well as a ban on future deletions.\" -From the AP story

Reply
\"user-pic\"
Smashville
July 31, 2009 9:51 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@coren: Which means it will probably get turned into a class action suit.

Reply
","","","","","","","","","","","","","","","","
\"user-pic\"
kapow!
July 31, 2009 10:18 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@supercereal

The key words here are \"law enforcement\". There was no warrant, no notice, no nothing. They effectively *stole* his property.

Reply
2 replies
\"user-pic\"
rickn99
August 1, 2009 2:47 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

The recipient of illegally sold property is never entitled to keep the property. It gets returned to the owner (in this case the copyright holder).


So, Amazon can take back any downloaded book it wants for any reason any time under their contract. Amazon is also required, under US law, to remove illegally copyrighted materials from their inventory.


Would you be siding with Amazon if they DIDN'T remove these illegal books and faced a lawsuit from the lawful copyright holder? Amazon is guaranteed to lose that fight, since the ownership of the property is not in doubt.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
supercereal
August 1, 2009 3:04 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@Kristinap815: *Technically* it was never his property to begin with. E-books purchased on Amazon remain the property of Amazon.

Reply
","
\"user-pic\"
SquareBubbles
July 31, 2009 10:18 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

I posted this on Gizmodo, but even with his book deleted by Amazon, his notes should still be in his My Clippings.txt, and all he needs to do is mount the Kindle on his computer, navigate to Documents, and open the file.

The problem with that though, is that the notes reference the Locations of the book, which is no longer on the device.

There are, however, other copies of 1984 in the Kindle Store which should be formatted and typeset similarly to his copy, meaning he should be able to get close with lining his notes up.

But seriously, I have a Kindle 2, and I would not use it for serious heavy notating- The keyboard and screen are not up to par for any real typing

Reply
","","
\"user-pic\"
I Love New Jersey
July 31, 2009 10:40 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

This is why there are books and post it notes.

Reply
1 replies
\"user-pic\"
thezone
July 31, 2009 11:27 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@I Love New Jersey: I was about to pay attention to your comment. Then I noticed that not only are you from NJ but you seem to love it. You obviously must be insane. Just Kidding.

I actually like having a physical book too. There's something about seeing your progress in the book. I may try a Kindle but I still think I would miss the tactile sensations of an honest to goodness book.

Reply
","","
\"user-pic\"
HogwartsAlum
July 31, 2009 11:04 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

I think perhaps they could have warned people. I mean, come on.

Reply
","","","
\"user-pic\"
Corporate_guy
July 31, 2009 11:17 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

People, ignore the homework aspect. This is a lawsuit that may prevent Amazon from doing this in the future and will help convince companies that when you sell a digital book, the person needs to own that book.

Reply
1 replies
\"user-pic\"
MMD
August 1, 2009 2:03 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@Corporate_guy: Agreed about the larger point of the lawsuit...but because Amazon's actions affected the student's ability to use his own intellectual property, I don't think that aspect should be ignored.

Reply
","
\"user-pic\"
aguacarbonica
July 31, 2009 11:18 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

From a punitive standpoint, this kid's claim seems a bit ridiculous to me. Amazon didn't prevent him from doing his work, they just made it slightly more difficult. He got a refund, so it's not like it was impossible for him to get another copy of the book - which in any case is readily available in most libraries. Summer break isn't over most students yet, so it also sounds like he had ample time to do the work.


I totally support this as a preventative measure for future theft on Amazon's part. But if this guy actually seriously believes that this posed a real obstacle to his completing his homework, he might not be responsible enough for an AP class. My guess, though, is that this is a clever way to make a more convincing case against Amazon for the general transgression of deleting the books.

Reply
3 replies
\"user-pic\"
terinjokes
August 1, 2009 4:29 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@aguacarbonica: In which case, he's probably more than responsible enough for an AP class.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
aguacarbonica
August 1, 2009 5:12 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@terinjokes:


I'm going to go ahead and doubt that he came up with the idea all by himself and sought out the lawyer all by himself.

Reply
","","","","","
\"user-pic\"
Haggie1
July 31, 2009 11:36 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

Steve Bezos ate my homework!!!

Reply
","","","","
\"user-pic\"
linkura
August 1, 2009 1:49 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

Wht crybby. NS y my hv t r-skm thrgh fw dzn pgs t cmplt yr ssgnmnt! Cry sm mr!

Reply
11 replies
\"user-pic\"
liquidnumb
August 1, 2009 1:50 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@lnkr: Nc trllng, trll.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
liquidnumb
August 1, 2009 10:41 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@liquidnumb: Disemvoweled for callout out a yet to be disemvoweled comment. Way to go me, I guess. Can't remember how many times I've seen that slide.

MY BAD GUYS, MY BAD.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
Corporate_guy
July 31, 2009 11:14 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@linkura: Except if this kid wins, book ownership in a digital form might actually become ownership. This is a really important lawsuit.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
thezone
July 31, 2009 9:32 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@linkura: How would you like someone from Amazon to run up to you and grab your book out of your hand because they were illegally printed. This is the same issue. This isn't just about the notes. It's about technology companies doing whatever they want to customer's property.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
supercereal
July 31, 2009 9:58 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@thezone:

because they were illegally printed
I think that adequately addresses your comment.

Plus, he got an immediate refund. What's the problem here?

Reply
\"user-pic\"
Eat A Peach
August 1, 2009 7:50 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@supercereal: Because the notes weren't part of the purchased text. They were his own words based on a text that was offered for sale at the time legally. I don't have a problem with them deleting the download and offering the purchase price back, but like many, the way this whole event was handled by Amazon was akin to a mugging. No warning (to remove notes or try to find alternate text that would coenside with the originally purchased text); just wham!bam! and not even a thank-you man/ma'am! when it was done. Just a lot of bewildered customers out there. And the fact that Amazon couldn't have gotten all the texts out of circulation 100% is what really makes it all the worse.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
morganlh85
August 1, 2009 1:37 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@supercereal: So can Barnes & Noble sneak into my house and take back a real book that was illegally printed?

The point is, how far is this going to go? Users should have been notified IN ADVANCE about the situation. If my car is recalled, Chrysler doesn't just sneak into my garage and take my car. They send you a notice.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
supercereal
August 1, 2009 3:02 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@morganlh85: If that was in the terms of the sale, then sure.

Listen, I don't disagree that Amazon should have been nice about giving warnings. The point is, when you \"buy\" something via Kindle, you are agreeing that Amazon still owns the content (and that you are merely leasing it), a la:

Digital Content will be deemed licensed to you by Amazon under this Agreement unless otherwise expressly provided by Amazon.

E-books are non-essential; if you don't like their DRM policy, then don't purchase their products and complain about them later.

And as in most cases, the car analogy is completely different and irrelevant.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
thezone
July 31, 2009 11:20 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@supercereal: The point is Amazon illegally went into the person's Kindle and removed an item. It would be like someone picking the lock on your door removing the illegal book and crediting your account. Amazon should have notified the buyer that the copy was fraudulent and given them options to remove the book. Amazon had no right to remove anything from the person's Kindle without the owner's specific permission.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
silver-bolt
August 1, 2009 2:34 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@thezone: Actually, no. Kindle TOS & Amazon Store TOS would both undoubtedly have clauses in them allowing this, limiting their liability, and making the user unable to sue in their own state and for more than 50 dollars.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
huadpe
July 31, 2009 10:11 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@supercereal: Being snatched by the person who fraudulently printed them in the first place. Amazon illegally printed the books then fraudulently sold them to customers, then stole them back from the same customers. Amazon is liable thrice in this little story.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
SBR249
July 31, 2009 10:10 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@supercereal: The problem here is that there was no warning.

An analogy here would have been if you rented a car, took it to a place remote and then the rental company dispatched a tow truck and towed it away because they didn't own the title to the car. See how you would feel about an immediate refund when you are stranded in the middle of nowhere.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
KiLE
July 31, 2009 9:31 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@linkura: Totally! What was that kid thinking?!? He's acting like he shouldn't expect his Kindle to delete his books for no apparent reason! Let's find that kid, buy him a kitten and step on it.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
l951b951
July 31, 2009 10:09 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@KiLE: \"Let's find that kid, buy him a kitten and step on it. \"

That cracked me up. Thank you.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
cmdrsass
July 31, 2009 9:23 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@linkura: That's not really the point of this exercise.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
Three Word Chant
July 31, 2009 9:22 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@linkura: That's not the issue - the issue is deleting content you already purchased. Even though Amazon's justification made some sense, they decided to do this without any warning. With some notice, at least users like this student could have gotten their notes off. Plus, he did read close to 100 pages. If you factor in tweeting about each one, that could take months.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
WorldHarmony
August 1, 2009 6:37 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@Three Word Chant: No, that IS the issue. The kid is simply trying to make money off the Amazon debacle with a weak claim about his school assignment. If the book were stolen from his locker, would he sue the school district?

Reply
\"user-pic\"
Eat A Peach
August 1, 2009 8:49 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@WorldHarmony: If a school district official did the theiving, then yes, he could sue the district. However, it's not about theft, it's about owning what you bought and being treated like a responsible, thinking human being when the item purchased turns out to be something that shouldn't be in existance at all. If I bought the licence to a piece of software and it turns out that the install download was produced by an unauthorized agent, that doesn't give the original software company the right to remotely hack into my personal property and remove the offending installed software; even if they give me back the purchase price. I may not \"own\" the software (just a licence to use it) but I bought that licence fair and square and there is only one way for them to be allowed to retrieve any offending copies/downloads of it -- with a court order. Anything short of that, without any type of notification (which should have been given and requests for removal proffered to affected people), is wrong.

Reply
","","","","","","","","","","","","","","
\"user-pic\"
Nascar24Dude
August 1, 2009 4:42 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

Well, I'm kindof plit on this one.


Several of you keep saying that Amazon \"stole\" these ebooks. Really, as I understand it, none of us really truly \"own\" a book ( copyrighted, that is; we do own public domain titles ). If we really owned it, we would be free to copy, publish, distribute, and sell it. But, we don't. Those rights belong to the author. We have a \"license\" to buy, possess, and read the book; and we can sell the one physical copy we have. We have a quasi-ownership of the book. The real property rights belong to the author. If an illegal copy gets sold, it can be seized by law enforcement ( albeit with a search warrant ) under the receipt of stolen property laws. Same for these ebooks. And, most likely, Amazon has something in their TOS or EULA that says you don't offically own the property; Amazon does. And, it has the right suspend/revoke/cancel/etc. the license to any and all books at any time. Plus, many of you are forgetting that, since these copies weren't authorized, it is really receipt of stolen property ( in this case, intellectual property ). Did Amazon not handle it as best as they could have: maybe. I'd like to see them double-check their selling rights and send a notification first if this happens again. But, I can't totally blame them.

Reply
3 replies
\"user-pic\"
fantomesq
August 1, 2009 6:23 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@Nascar24Dude: Your analysis of the ownership is bad. When you purchase a printed work, you do indeed gain ownership of the copy. This does NOT give you rights to copy and resell copies. It does give you the right to resell your one copy.

Books that were printed in violation of the author's/publisher's copyright are NOT stolen goods. They are infringing goods. The courts may well order the destruction of every remaining copy in the infringing publisher's inventory. They are NOT going to require or even allow the seizure of books already sold. Infringing works are not per se stolen and do not fall under stolen goods.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
Nascar24Dude
August 1, 2009 7:25 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@fantomesq:
Really? My understanding was that it was essentially the same as receipt of stolen property. Let's have Person A and Person B. Person A steals something. Person A sells the stolen good to Person B. Person A gets caught, gets arrested, and confesses to the whole thing. Person B then has a warrant served against him to recover the stolen property ( however, he won't go to jail if the stolen good was received in good faith ). I thought the same applied to intellectual property. Can someone who is a lawyer enlighten here if it is illegal to receive or buy stolen intellectual property ( and if so, what can be done about it )?


But, even if receipt of stolen intellectual property is done differently from regular property, my other point still stands. Amazon probably has a cancellation / termination / revocation / suspenstion / etc. clause in either the TOS, the EULA, or both for cases in which stuff like this happens. It probably also comes with a limited license agreement ( i.e. you don't own the book; you have bought a limited, revokable license to access a digital copy of a given book ).


Is it right: I don't think so. Would I like to see it changed: yes. I'm just pointing out that Amazon is probably legally in the right. But, since their action resulted in something like the OP's situation, this lawsuit might have a chance. We'll just have to see.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
fantomesq
August 1, 2009 10:38 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@Nascar24Dude: Sorry Nascar, the Supreme Court has chimed in on this issue and found that infringed goods are not stolen property. Dowling vs. United States [en.wikipedia.org])

The surprising part in this case is that in its licenses Amazon does not appear to have reserved the right to repossess a sold work. They speak as to the permanent right of the user to use the work... I'm not convinced Amazon acted lawfully here.

Reply
\"user-pic\"
Nascar24Dude
August 1, 2009 4:46 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@Nascar24Dude:
edit: split, not plit
And, furthermore, the TOS and EULA are binding contracts. Unless a specific law overrides it, Amazon was within their power.


Do I hate seeing stuff like this? Absolutely. I think copyrights laws should last for 50 years or life of author plus 10, whichever is longer. However, I do partially support Amazon in protecting the rights of the copyright holder's property.

Reply
","","","","","","","","","","","","","
\"user-pic\"
WorldHarmony
August 1, 2009 6:20 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

That's a silly lawsuit. The book can be bought for very cheap or borrowed from the library. It's not like the teacher assigned the Kindle edition of the book. If he wants to sue he needs another basis for his argument.

Reply
","","","
\"user-pic\"
crusader666
August 1, 2009 6:43 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

\"Sorry, teacher, but my Kindle ate my homework!\"

Reply
","","","","","","","","","
\"user-pic\"
Antiks
August 2, 2009 4:28 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

I'll never buy a Kindle.

Reply
","
\"user-pic\"
bananaboat
August 2, 2009 1:23 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

Spouse has a kindle but I won't use it. But I do think he has a very good lawsuit for determining future precedents. What if you check your computer someday to find songs missing due to a band being sued for plagiarism? Or your Microsoft o/s de-installed due to a patent infringement lawsuit? Well, that last one might not be too bad...

Reply
","","","","
\"user-pic\"
TrinityLast
August 26, 2009 10:49 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

See, the thing is, this and many other books are available for FREE and LEGALLY on Project Gutenberg.

Which is free. And legal. If I didn't mention that before. And which gives you books in a format that cannot be deleted.

Yay for my sony e-reader.

Reply
");