Months later, however, he started receiving notices that asked him to either pay for the DVD or return it.
]]>The National Rifle Association sent unordered DVDs to its members. It correctly explained that since the DVDs were unordered, its members could return them (post paid), keep them, give them away, or if any wished, pay for them. Of course, they hoped that many would pay for them, and sign up to buy additional DVDs in the series.
As you can see in my letters to them, the problem came in subsequent mailings. What appeared to be bills arrived with instructions to return the DVDs or pay for them. Since these were sent well after the original mailing, many people would have forgotten what was originally said. I'm not a lawyer, but I believe such billing is illegal under Title 39, United States Code, Sect. 3009 subsection (c).
I don't want to (literally) make it a federal case, but I'm sending the information to you in the hopes that the light of publicity will cause them to take the right corrective actions.
Arthur even wrote a pretty clear letter to the NRA alerting them to what looks like deceptive marketing practices on their behalf:
You are allowing your reputation to be sullied by TN Marketing, LLC.
About a half a year back, I received an unsolicited American Rifleman DVD. As it was unsolicited, there was no requirement for me to return it, pay for it, or even to acknowledge it. The letter that came with it recognized that, and said that if I didn't want to buy or return it, that I could pass it along to someone else. It went so far as to say that I could "consider it a free gift." So far, so good.
However, since that time, I've received several mailings from TN Marketing requiring that I either pay for or return the DVD. These mailings were made long enough after the original one that most people would have already discarded the original letter explaining that there is a third option of doing nothing. Those who took the original letter's suggestion and gave the DVD to someone else would then be being billed for something they could no longer return. I consider this to be deceptive and close to fraud. I hope that this strategy is that of TN Marketing rather than that of the NRA, itself.
I expect to soon see a letter sent to all of us who did not originally pay for or return the DVD, including those who paid only after being unfairly (and illegally?) dunned by TN Marketing. It should apologize for the misrepresentation that TN Marketing made under your name and restate what was in the first mailing: You would like us to pay, but there is no requirement to pay for or return the DVD. Those who paid only after being wrongly dunned should be given an option to ask for their money back.
Unfortunately, the NRA's response was simply to take Arthur off their video distribution list and add his name to their Do Not Promote list. This prompted Arthur to send an even clearer letter to them:
You did not read my previous letter carefully enough. I am not complaining about frustration. I am complaining about illegal practices by either the NRA or a company performing work for the NRA.
If the NRA bilks its own members, how can we be expected to believe anything else it says? If the NRA prospers by this unethical act, how are we to believe that it won't do worse in the future? If I don't do what I can to correct a wrong being done in my name (as a member of the NRA), am I not complicit?
Therefore, if you cannot convince me that you are taking this seriously, conducting your own investigation, and contacting all who paid the illegal dunning notices, I will have little choice. I'll have to either go public with the information or make formal complaints with the FTC and the Postal Inspector.
If you're a member of the NRA and received this unordered DVD, remember that no matter what subsequent notices or bills you receive, you're absolutely not obliged to respond.
[Note: this post is about the FTC Mail Order Rule and a possible violation of it by a marketing firm hired by a special interest group. It's also about the group's apparent unwillingness to look into the problem and fix it. And it's about the Mail Order Rule in general and how it works. It's NOT about the NRA's existence or mission, however, so please don't derail the comments with political fighting or jabs.]
(Photo: NightRPStar)
]]>Let me just tell you, I just cancelled my personal NRA membership. My business was a member with their business alliance and I got a letter stating that my business membership was cancelled and to immediatly stop using their business alliance logo and they returned my $35 membership dues. It was a certified letter from a Elizabeth Bush. I called them to find out why since they didn't give me a reason in the certified letter. I called them and I couldn't get an answer from anyone. They weren't rude the people I spoke with, but I got the run around and transferred from one person to another and still no answer. NRA Sucks! You would think that they would give you a reason in the letter, but no. I have cancelled my personal membership (was a member for over 20 years). I am still pissed that I was treated that way by an organization I've supported all these years.
]]>Looks like it goes real political.
]]>You might have chucked it as just another NRA begging letter.
Since I shred all junk mail unopened ( and my shredder will eat a disc ), I probably got the DVD, the bill, and never noticed.
]]>I agree.
Gunbloggers are starting to trackback this Consumerist post as well.
Maybe we can shame the NRA into quitting its practice of flogging it's member list to any a-hole with ready cash.
]]>@Joshua Davis: And the disemvowelment continues
]]>Granted, I was confused the first time I saw a disemvowelment, but there's that handy little link at the end that explains it! Reading is fun!
]]>I saw the notice. I flaunted it. Oh well. :)
]]>How annoying. :(
]]>@NitrousO: In his defense, he is a starred commenter, and certainly not a regular troll. But sometimes, even the best tend to fly off the handle.
@scoosdad: Theres a button/link (i guess) that Roz can use to automatically remove those. A very simple one liner if you are using perl (or anything that supports regexes).
@takes_so_little: it takes so little to get disemvowelled in a post with 15 incidents already.
And I think the previous record was (again on Consumerist) when someone called the OP names, some people agreed, other people disagreed, and Roz would have none of it. I think it was 12, but for some reason I keep on thinking it was 21. Or maybe it was a 21 comment thread with 12 guttings. That would make more sense. Also, it makes THAT thread the one with the highest percentage of guttings.
]]>@JuliB: You must be new here. Be sure to drop in a thread later and blame the OP.
]]>But I deserve it for being baited by an unapproved commenter who blatantly disregarded the instructions in the article.
]]>Where do the deleted vowels all go, anyway? Are they used somewhere else to disemconsonant somebody's comments?
Why am I whining like Andy Rooney anyway?
]]>Ok, I deserved the disemvowling because I ignored (I admit it, I saw it, I just disregarded it) the [Note:] above, but I couldn't just let the inflamatory lead statement go.
As for Trai_Dep's statement that NRA members are "actually nice people", I think I'm going to start calling you Sybil.
Maybe this will get disemvowled too and no one will get to appreciate my Sally Field reference.
]]>I saw the notice at the bottom wayyyy too late.
]]>...an illegal... prtn...
what's prtn? anybody?
]]>Actually, they'd look alot like this thread does now.
]]>PS: svd y th trbl!
]]>"Thank you for contacting us.
I wasn't able to access the site because of a slow internet browser. However, the people who receive the videos do not have to pay for them, and if they contact us, we'll gladly take them off of the video list.
Thank you for your support!
Best regards,
Mike
NRA Member Communications"
And if Aurthur is mad now, just wait until TN Marketing hires a debt collector and reports the so called debt to the credit agencies.
I doubt that will happen, I'm fairly sure they know they can't collect anything for this DVD, it's just a case of sending bills out and hoping some people will pay them (which I'm sure a few will)
]]>@katstermonster: I feel like I missed the party. It's a hurricane of consonants up there! Man, Roz must be exhausted.
]]>@Travishamockery: Let's not get off on the Facebook tangent again folks. I've read plenty of posts written by dyed-in-the-wool Consumerist members that suck just as bad as anything written by the Facebook crowd. ;)
]]>Also, reading America's 1st Freedom on the Metra is an amusing sociological experiment. I've gotten nasty looks, given a thumbs-up (really!), been told I'm a gun nut (I guess that's what I get for living in Skokie and being an NRA member), and even asked by my seatmate if could have it when I was done b/c they wanted to read the article they were reading over my shoulder. I should note that I don't read it to get reactions, it's just that the 30 minutes a day I get from Olgivie to Davis is the only time right now I get to read whatever I want without {wife | newborn | yorkies | friends | housework} demanding attention.
]]>@ARP: I'm first!
To be disemvowled that is. Because being a smart-ass for the sake of it never flies here. :(
]]>Recently they pestered me to donate money in addition to my membership. They would not stop calling. I went to their website and updated my phone number to the number that showed on the caller id when they call. I haven't had a single call since.
They do go work protecting our constitutional right to bear arms, but their fundraising practices are horrible.
]]>@Tr_Dp: Lvng n L nd bng flly wr f bm's vtng rcrd n 2nd mndmnt lgsltn, m wllng t tk hm t hs wrd tht h n lngr dsrs t frthr rstrct tht rght.
f crs, blvd hm whn h sd tht h'd tk pblc fnncng fr hs prsdntl cmpgn, t.
]]>t's lwys nlghtnng whn smn psts "n y r wrng", thn gs n t prvd 0 fcts bt wht thy r wrng bt. Ths hystr f bm wntng gns s mst lkly drmmd p by th NR nd gn mnfctrrs t mk $.
]]>@ThyCllMStcy_GtmStvDv: Fnny, th sm ppl tht ntlly wh sd ppnnts f th n fly lst mthds htd mrk nd wntd th trrrsts t wn, sddnly hv prblm wth sng th lst? Hw cld tht b?
]]>@HomersBrain: Well done! That genuinely made me laugh.
]]>gss cld s th Fx Nws ttck mthd nd sy, "Hw cn w blv nythng tht th NR sys r ds nw snc thy r n llgl prtn"
BT- dn't lk whn ppl hd bhnd thr mrktng r prmtns cmpns. Ths r yr cntrctrs nd y nd t b rspnsbl fr thm.
]]>@HPwr: r y cnfsng bm wth McCn. McCn s th n tht sd th pblc fnncng t grnt ln. ls h sd h wld s th pblc systm f th Rpblcn grd t crtl s f Lbbyng grps, 527's, tc. Thy sd n, s bm sd n t pblc fnncng.
BT- Th NR s lk ny thr pltcl grp- thy s fr nd msrprsnttn t gt mny frm ppl. Why wld y thnk t wld stp n thr mssgng nd nt xtnd nt thr prtclr mthds.
]]>@kbrrtt: nd th NR nvr nggs n fr mngrng r msrprsnttn?
]]>Snstnlst hdln gn. Th DVD s nt th brkn n n th pht. r f t s, tht's nt xplnd.
]]>Things that have nothing to do with the OP and should not be the focus of your post:
- Gun control
- Democrats
- Republicans
- Barack Obama
- Hillary Clinton (!)
Things that *should* be the focus of your post:
- The original article
- Another person's comment that is relevant to the original article
Please take the partisan back-and-forth elsewhere.
]]>Y knw, crs kll bt 4 tms s mny ppl pr yr thn ll gn hmcds n th S, s shldn't y b cmplnng bt hw GM nd Frd dn't cr bt mrdr s lng s ppl cn hv thr crs?
]]>W shld prbbly bn swmmng pls t. Stvn Lvtt (Frknmcs) fnd tht f y wn gn nd bckyrd swmmng pl, chld s 100 tms mr lkly t b klld by th pl.
]]>Thy rlly rn't s Rpblcn s mst ppl thnk, thgh Rpblcns r mr lkly n vrg t hld pstns tht th NR spprts. n th 2008 lctns thy ndrsd th Dmcrtc ncmbnt n my cngrssnl dstrct (n Txs).
]]>@MstlyHrmlss: Ys, nd 200 Chns bs bys dntd $1000 t Hllry's cmpgn. ll ths shthds r slzy. Y wnt t by nt thr spl, g fr t. 'm cync nd dmt t.
]]>wld thnk tht fghtng mndtry chld lcks fr gns hs dn mr t sl th rpttn f th NR thn dcptv jnk ml cld vr d.
]]>n sd nt ( cknwldg th fct tht mst'fscl cnsrvtvs' r nt nhngd ntjbs) ls lvd whn lgc bts ppl n th ss. Cs n pnt:
Whck: nyn wh ds nt hnd vr vdnc f trrst ctvty t FB s trrst.
Whck: bm s hlf hmn hlf clth trrst.
Whck: Srh Pln knws h s trrst. Sh hs vdnc.
Brd Gy: S, y r syng tht sh KNW hs trrrst, nd hd vdnc, bt stll dd nt nfrm th thrts, nd lt hm bcm th prsdnt. S y mn yr ptrn snt f whcknss s trrst hrslf, cnsprng gnst th rl mrkns t pt knwn trrst n th hghst ffc n th lnd?
@bhmn: Ys, bt w n th lft hv r shr s wll. t's vry ffctv mns f gttng dntns.
Bt gr n th sbstnc, th nd t stp thr mrktng cmpny r fc th cnsqncs. thnk th CSR ntntnlly ctd stpd s tht thy dn't hv t dmt tht thy "knw" bt th prctcs.
]]>@RP: N, 'm nt cnfsng thm t ll. McCn nd bm bth pldgd tht thy wld tk pblc fnncng. McCn tk t, bm "chngd hs mnd."
knw bm's vtng rcrd. dn't nd th NR t tll m tht h hs nvr sn nt-2nd mndmnt lgsltn tht h ddn't spprt.
]]>@HPwr: Tht rtcl dsn't sy whr h prmsd t s Pblc Fnncng wtht qlfctn. t's gnrlly cpy f my rtcl tht sd h's b n fvr f t vn thy cld rch grmnt wth rpblcns n s f tsd grps s prxs.
Bsds, why r y n fvr f txpyr fndd lctns? r y cmm? D y ht rch ppl? r y nly fr th 2nd mndmnt bt gnst th 1st? Why d y ht r frdms?
]]>@RP: 'm nt n fvr f pltcns bllshttng m. Th Dmcrts d t, th Rpblcns d t, thy ll d t. Y sm t ccpt t; dn't.
]]>(spoiler)
Don't really transcribe cute things to layer on top of their picture, then send them out on the internet. And their grammar is actually quite good. Queen's English, behind closed doors.
]]>'"The NRA is basically taking over the House and Senate," said Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., a leading gun-control supporter. "If the NRA wins, the American people are going to be the ones who lose."' via MSNBC
It's lucky it got through Congress + Obama, unscathed. For the love of pete, I lean more pro-gun than anti-gun. Why must you shoot down (pun intended) the sparkling ray of hope from a man who largely avoided the topic throughout his campaign?
]]>I'll never, ever recommend someone join the NRA.
]]>@katstermonster: Correct, he didn't veto a bill that did 50 million other things besides allowing guns into national parks.
]]>p.s. There sure is a lot of ignorance being voiced here about the NRA (not related to this DVD campaign). Sigh.
]]>There's also supplemental insurance for one's firearms ($1000 included). They send you one of their magazines, for better or worse. Even though they send out tons of spam (I'm 25 years old, why would I need discount long term care insurance?), you occasionally get something useful like raffle entries (I once won a skinning knife and saw set in one of them). In many of the less gun-friendly states, most private ranges will require an NRA membership to be eligible to join them.
]]>Must.Exercise.More.Control.
]]>@takes_so_little: Agreed. I guess my thought is that if an organization is willing to engage in such behaviour with its members, that continuing that approach to its marketing/collection practices isn't so crazy.
]]>Maybe the NRA hired NETFLIX to sent it ;)
]]>@wee0x1B: All political groups (left and right) are like that. If you've ever donated to any particular cause, suddenly you get a slew of mail about all sorts of crazy causes.
]]>That's what you get for being a member of the NRA, enjoy your DVD.
]]>@Jacob Morgan: Someone's gotta dig up the grave..
]]>@Jim Topoleski: When a candidate makes a big deal of reducing the influence of private funding to campaigns and pledges to take public financing to combat it and then does a 180 when he realizes that he can raise more privately (reduction of private funding influence be damned), then yes I call "hypocrite" and complain.
]]>This becomes a clear case of mail fraud by the marketer and perhaps even by the NRA itself if it doesn't investigate and correct this behavior.
]]>No more complaints from them; also no more free DVDs.
]]>I finally had to call them up and demand that they immediately cease all contact with me, or I'd have my lawyer contact them.
Looking back, I wish I hadn't become a member, much less a life member. I like what they do for our rights as citizens, but I don't like what they think they have to do to feed that money machine. They have an air of sleaze about them last few years...
]]>REALLY? Thats what you are doing?
]]>Since the NRA seemed to not care at all that members are being scammed either they condone it or they don't care that the marketing company they hired is doing it. The OP should complain to the state Atty General and possibly the postal service? IIRC the postal service is involved in policing these free gift scams.
I personally don't consider the NRA to be anything more than a political scaremongering arm of the GOP.
]]>@takes_so_little: Not saying who is guilty of what. Simply that the DVD in question isn't necessarily broken, as the direct article and the referenced picture would indicate.
]]>@Trai_Dep: The headline specifically says "This DVD", referring supposedly to the one pictured.
]]>Argh. You beat me to it!
+AK-47
]]>@Trai_Dep: Never said I was an NRA member, and even so, I wouldn't do anything. There's very few organizations out there that a person can support, completely guilt-free (ACLU supporting NAMBLA comes to mind). You have to take the good with the bad.
@HurtsSoGood: I perceive a threat from no one -- I simply like exercising my rights. I like exercising my first amendment rights all the time, too! If I go through my entire life without ever having to fire a gun in defense, I can probably die happy.
@Voyou_Charmant: That's not what the 2nd amendment means, and the Supreme Court agrees. It gives the rights of individuals to keep and bear arms -- even Obama agrees with this. (Now, this is different from the right to carry arms concealed -- nothing in the Constitution guarantees that.)
]]>Ahem.
"this post is about the FTC Mail Order Rule...It's NOT about the NRA's existence or mission, however, so please don't derail the comments with political fighting or jabs".
]]>@Galactica: So many things wrong here. You're not first and you shouldn't be saying you're first, even for a witty quote that 2 others beat you to. It's not 2001 anymore.
]]>I can't believe the NRA would do this! What a horrible group. This here is just proof positive that they are............ psych!
]]>That's really the only thing I would be concerned with.
]]>On a serious note though, by being on their membership rolls, does the law protect you from unsolicited DVS.? Its like joining a book of the month club. You belong to the club and they send you books. You either keep them and buy them or send them back. I wonder if somewhere in their membership's fine print they're correct. Kinda like being on the Do Not Call list... if they're a company you do business with, they're allowed to contact you even if you're on the do not call list. Or perhaps since the NRA is a political action group, normal laws do not apply to them, such as what they're allowed to do during elections. *shrug*
]]>@Trai_Dep: So I guess we're ignoring the note at the end of the post, then? Or was that a later addition?
]]>Promotional DVD's don't rip people off, national organizations do.
]]>"NRA sells membership list to scammer" is truthful.
"Is NRA trying to trick its members ... ?" is misleading at best.
I am an NRA member and supporter, and yes, this kind of crap bothers me. But this is a failure to properly vet buyers of the membership lists, and not a scam on the NRA's part.
]]>Hmm they haven't sent my friend or I anything yet so guess it didn't go out to everyone but I'd be ticked too if they did this to me.
]]>You're doing something sketchy against a group of people that have guns, aren't afraid to use them and actively campaign for access to bigger guns.
Seems like a bad group to target to me...
]]>The sooner we get unlicensed DVDs out of the hands of our children, the sooner they stop killing each other with them.
]]>@backbroken: I'll grab a shovel!
]]>Oh, and the NRA is being pushy. They really need to learn that just because I support them doesn't mean I'm balls deep for them and only them.
]]>@backbroken: :D
]]>NRA don't "bill" people, TN Marketing "bills" people
]]>The NRA isn't the only organization to pull stunts like this though. A very benign "woodworker's guild" did the same thing with a DVD they sent me.
* (Well, ok, that and their stance that "an employer`s private property interests do not trump a person`s right to have a firearm available for self-defense")
]]>In the mind of the NRA, Authur was an annoyance who was attempting to interfere with a revenue stream. It only makes sense to shut him up rather than to actually listen to him and solve his problem
And if Aurthur is mad now, just wait until TN Marketing hires a debt collector and reports the so called debt to the credit agencies.
]]>Who is going to be the first to post "You'll have to pry this DVD from my cold-dead hands!!!!"?
]]>From my reading it seems that this is not the direct fault of the NRA, but thier marketing partner that send out the DVD. I smell dirty business on thier part, riding the members of the NRA for money.
I smell class action lawsuit! What about you?
]]>Congrats, two points that prove you have no idea what you are talking about. In one post even! Congrats!
]]>