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Scientology is freaky in so many ways (the aliens being chief) but I've always seen it as a cult. This is from my study of cults. Also, Tom Cruise is a terrifying little man who kind of got branded the posterchild of the \"organization\" and that doesn't help them.
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@pecan 3.14159265: If you're celebrity then scientology is probably pretty good as long as you play along. You get waited on hand and foot, feted by the high command, surrounded by fawning sycophants and generally made to feel like you're the center of the universe. It's all designed to massage egos and pander to insecure celebs.
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@pecan 3.14159265: PS - Tom Cruise doesn't help them? Have you scene what their enrollment was prior to his involvement vs. now?
@pecan 3.14159265: It's no more of a cult than the Catholic church, or really any religion. It uses the exact same methods of getting people to believe. Scientology is just a little more upfront with the extortion.
Also, your study of cults?
@youbastid: Oh wait, except other religions (with a few exceptions, like Christian Scientists) don't think doctors who help their congregants' solve problems are evil.
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All churches (at least the Christian ones, which includes Catholicism) are at least up-front as to what the dogma of their religion happens to be and you can ask anyone and, for the most part, everyone from the top down subscribes to roughly the same thing. You have to be in Scientology for quite some time and for a truck-load of dollars before you even hear of Xenu and his magical quadrillion year empire. That right there sounds like a bait and switch. Come in for the analysis, get chained by the intergalactic despot.
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@youbastid: in the definition of a cult is the 'secrecy' part, which scientology has in spades (so does the Mormon cult); religion does not equate with cult, although most cults can be viewed as religions.
finally, you have a problem with \"do unto others as you would have them do unto you?\"?? True religion does exist, and it is not self seeking, it is not money grubbing, it does not aspire to political power or any personal worldly gain. It is fanatical, even to the point of death, but if all people followed the true teachings of the Christ, this world would look like a utopia - that's fact. read up on His purported words in the first 4 books of the NT sometime. you might be surprised at what you find out there
@banmojo: you have a problem with \"do unto others as you would have them do unto you?\"?? True religion does exist, and it is not self seeking, it is not money grubbing, it does not aspire to political power or any personal worldly gain. It is fanatical, even to the point of death, but if all people followed the true teachings of the Christ, this world would look like a utopia - that's fact
1. The concept of treating others as one would wish to be treated has been co-opted by many religions, but it is not a religious invention or discovery. It's an evolutionary behavioral pattern based on reason and human nature.
2. How exactly should one acquire knowledge of the true teachings of the Christ, anyway? By reading a book written by people born many generations after his reported death (or return to the heavenly kingdom, or whatever)? By listening to teachings of a church built upon the same book?
I'm so tired of the religious speaking as if they have a corner on morality. The two are not mutually inclusive. I have a very strong sense of morality, and no use whatsoever for religion. Belief is okay until it becomes a doctrine passed on to others with no expectation of arriving at the same conclusions on their own. Believe what makes sense to you, and what feels right. Forget about \"religion.\" It's full of arbitrary rules that have nothing to do with the Golden Rule, and everything to do with the mindset of whichever group was in charge at the time of the most recent revision of the dogma.
@banmojo: It's not money grubbing? It's pretty widespread knowledge that the Catholic church prohibited their priests from marrying because they gave less money to the church when they did.
@youbastid: Actually, the church kept priests from marrying because they didn't want their children to be able to inherit church property. Celibacy only became mandatory in the 12th century, by which time the church already had significant wealth and political power. Not wanting to give away the wealth you have is different than taking someone else's. You're just anti-Catholic. Give me a break.
@vim876: Wrong, I'm anti-organized religion. And that documentary showed that the organization IS its screwups, all the way to the Pope. Have you seen it? Because, you know, the church hasn't really done much to solve the problem. I'd say installing the guy that was in charge of handling sexual misconduct while a whole bunch of molestin' was going on to be the Pope wasn't the best of ideas.
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@youbastid:
A friend of mine who was divorced and wanted to re-marry in the Catholic Church was told she would have to get an annulment first and to get that she had to pony up almost $1000.
So you're right, money grubbing goes on in the Catholic Church
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@tbonekatz: And why couldn't she just change religions and get an annulment that way or go right through the state? Not to defend any religion of anything but I am sure that $1000 is to deter people from getting divorced.
@XBL: Legend xKWx (Kyle):
You don't understand, she's CATHOLIC, not going to change religions, no, no, no. She wanted to re-marry in the Catholic church. If you're divorced you must obtain an annulment from the Catholic church in order to have your second wedding in the church. The only annulment the Catholic church recognizes is the one issued by them. And you gotta pay for it.
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This argument gets trotted out every time someone points out that Scientology is a cult.
Let's say, for sake of argument, that you convert to Catholic Christianity. While there are classes to bring you up to speed on your new religion's dogma and so forth, they're either free or relatively cheap--you might have to pay for classroom materials. You also (and here's the important part) DO NOT NEED TO TAKE THEM. You can go to a Catholic Church and participate in the Sunday Services (sing hymns, take communion, etc.) without having to pay a dime.
The Church of Scientology, on the other hand, has courses and auditing sessions that are required. They cost money. It requires spending many thousands of dollars to take all the OT classes. And it's only after you've spent those many thousands of dollars and been brainwashed for months (if not years), that you find out about Xenu and Teeagaack and all the cheesy sci-fi elements of this so-called religion.
Yeah, that's right. All that stuff isn't public knowledge. (Okay, it's a little more public after that one South Park episode, but the point is still there). There's not some super-secret version of the Bible that you only get to look at after 15 years of faithful service and huge stacks of cash donations to the Vatican. There's no super-secret version of the Qu'ran or the Talmud.
And how many other religions do you know of that have trade secrets? Yeah, the Church of Scientology protects the OT coursework under the laws governing trade secrets (copyright and trademark laws). The Bible, the Talmud, the Qu'ran are not only public domain, but the respective churches actively continue to give them away in order to promote believe. Sciencetology makes you pay into the hundreds of thousands of dollars to get to their basic doctrine.
And let's not forget that for much of its history, Scientology _wasn't even a church_. L. Ron Hubbard started dianetics as a counseling techinique designed to be an alternative to psychotherapy. Even though it was popular at first, it was still quack medicine, and Hubbard's Dianetic Research Foundation was forced into bankruptcy when the New Jersey Board of Medical Examiners instituted proceedings against them. Then the IRS started nosing around. THAT'S when Scientology decided to get incorporated as a church.
There's a lot more that I could go into, but the \"Scientology is no different than Catholicism\" line is a load of horseshit. Catholicism has plenty of problems, to be sure, but it's not an organized crume ring masquerading as a church like Scientology is.
(Now, if one compares Scientology to Mormonism, you get a little different story. While Latter-Day Saints are able to participate in Sunday services and basic salvation rites [baptism, confirmation, priesthood]-- they are NOT able to participate in the higher ordinances of the church without taking out their endowments at the temple. Guess what one of the qualifications for attending temple is: being a full tithe payer!)
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@magstheaxe: Be careful when comparing Catholicism and Scientology. The Catholic Church is simply older and wiser, but practiced many of the same kinds of things over the years. For example: They kept the bible in Latin so the common folk couldn't read it. At one point, they owned a great deal of land in Europe, given to them by rich nobles looking to buy their way into heaven. Indulgences were purchased to allow you or your loved ones a shorter time in purgatory. They controlled information as well, keeping a library of banned works which would get you excommunicated for reading without permission. The list goes on and on. Catholocism has most certainly changed, but I suspect that's because the motives have changed. Right now, Scientology is motivated by greed, but what happens when the leaders are true believers instead of thieves?
@godlyfrog: I'm gonna bet that in pretty much any institution that wields so much power for so long, you'll find some moneygrubbing. The point is, even if you never give the Catholic Church a penny, you can know everything there is to know about that faith.
@magstheaxe: That's not even taking into account the Church of Scientology's practices of bullying critics into silence (look up \"Operation Freakout\" and the \"Fair Game\" rule), splitting up families and generally abusing the hell out of its adherents in order to preserve its non-taxed status as a church and its profit margin.
It's a cult, and a particularly unlawful and nasty one.
@magstheaxe: There are two separate facets to Scientology that people have a problem with. The belief system, and the way it systematically extracts money from its followers.
From the belief system, it is absolutely no different than any other religion. That was my original point.
From the way it extracts money, there are myriad differences, many of which you pointed out. But the Vatican wasn't built out of straw and bricks. I don't mean to single out Catholicism, it's just the one that keeps coming up. There are plenty others.
@magstheaxe: \"it's not an organized crume ring masquerading as a church\"...I beg to differ. Have you seen \"Deliver Us From Evil\"?
@youbastid: Documentaries showing a group's screwups (yes, even the big ones) can be made about any organization. That doesn't mean the organization IS it's screwups.
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@magstheaxe: Another of the more insidious practices is that of \"auditing\". When you first join, they take you to a room with one other Scientologist and a bogus machine they call an E-meter, and it's a bit like confession, though no one will forgive you. They ask you for every single intimate secret and detail of your life to try and find what's causing your stress (as determined by the E-meter...)
Of course, all these exchanges are recorded and saved for future blackmail in case the person might want to leave.
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@youbastid: The Catholic Church doesn't claim that the bible is a copywritten work, nor do they charge you over, what was it, $30k or $300k in order to find out that Jesus was the son of God.
The only reason they're a religion is because it was tax deductible. Stars who're REALLY into Scientology have the various studios pay the Scientology centers their entire paychecks for movies, and then the CoS buys things, and \"allows\" the stars to use it. Tom Cruise doesn't own his house, the CoS owns it, and lets him live there, tax free. All of the money that Tom got from MI3 went right to the CoS, which buys things for Tom and allows him use of it, all tax free.
As for the religious part of it, if people want to believe that they're haunted by alien ghosts that were put on this planet before the creation of the universe, that's fine, more power to them. When they force people into slavery, debt, and sue the IRS until the IRS gives up, that's a different matter.
I have a problem with the church, not the religion.
@FnordX: I have problems with the religion. They oppose mental health care. Christian Scientists oppose all health care. I have a problem with that. If a sociologist doesn't treat her kid, it can kill them, and she might never be arrested for child endangerment, abuse, or neglect. That's unacceptable. Period. On top of that, they force people to get pretty far in before telling them much about the organization.
I ALSO have a problem with the church that is much the same as yours.
@vim876: Scientologist, not sociologist. That'll teach me to research and read Consumerist at the same time.
:)
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@youbastid: The Catholic Church does not require the same blind obedience/monetary giving. This from someone who has been a lifelong Catholic (albeit a wary one at times).
Also: the Catholic Church does not yank people from psychiatric care and refuse to treat legitimate mental illnesses. I'll give you that the Church's views on contraceptives need some work, but no one has been excommunicated for being on The Pill or using a condom. Trust me.
@katstermonster: We don't have to trust you. We have the internet. According to PBS, about 80% of American Catholics use birth control. I was raised in the Catholic Church. Scientology is a whole different ball o' wax.
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@katstermonster:
Thank you! (Also a Catholic, albeit lapsed). I was thinking exactly the same thing.
@katstermonster: Also, Scientology has councils that rule on \"indiscretions\" such as adultery - whether you are Jim from down the street or a high ranking official of the organization. And Scientology advocates \"disconnection\" from any friends or family who express concern as that is perceived to be an affront to your beliefs. Last I checked, I wasn't going before a council or asked to stop talking to my Muslim, atheist or Buddhist friends or family members.
@katstermonster: No, but they've been excommunicated for allowing their 8 year old daughter get an abortion, because if she didn't, she would have died. The father that raped her? Not excommunicated.
Oh, and they blame condoms for AIDS.
Sorry, the Catholic Church is even WORSE than Scientology because they have SO much control over SO many people.
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@pecan 3.14159265: religion major speaking, if you had actually \"studied cults\" you'd know that they're called New Religious Movements in academia, and the only difference they have from more established religions is that they're newer
@pecan 3.14159265: I think it's helped them immensely. Their business model is to recruit celebrities - give them all kinds of perks just to carry their brand, so when the public sees celebrities doing it, they want in too. It's worked, immensely, on a global scale. Tom Cruise may not be particularly popular in your town, but you should see how big Scientology is in Germany.
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@pecan 3.14159265: Yeah.. the more you learn about it.. the more freakish it becomes..
It gives me a giant case of the heebies.. and I'm sure they could throw in some jeebies if I paid a small nominal fee.
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@Radi0logy: Good! That's the first step in making reparations for emotional and mental damage sustained during and after Battlefield Earth!
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@theblackdog: That episode is the only reason I think South Park should be allowed to exist, but it was soooo good that I forgive every other episode I've seen.
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If I understand Scientology correctly, won't they avoid the \"poor\" chumps, and instead e-meter the \"rich\" chumps?
@SeniorPonzologist_GitEmSteveDave: All pyramid schemes need a base
@SeniorPonzologist_GitEmSteveDave: That is why I prefer the Church of the Fonz!
@SeniorPonzologist_GitEmSteveDave: Nah, the \"poor\" chumps can still borrow money, mortgage themselves to the hilt and even work as virtual slaves for scientology.
@SeniorPonzologist_GitEmSteveDave: I live just a few blocks from the Scientology hive over in Los Feliz (an east hollywood hipster enclave), and I can assure you that they want everybody regardless of how broke you are-- they even have special flyers they'd leave at my apartment building enticing aspiring actors to come to their workshops (most with a headliner celeb like Juliette Lewis)... They prey on the broke-- they might even help you find work-- all so they can charge you for it later.
@SeniorPonzologist_GitEmSteveDave: i believe that's why the commercial started out with a car that costs more than $500k.
@SeniorPonzologist_GitEmSteveDave: Yeah, but the only ones with that delicious mix of too much money and not enough intelligence happen to work in Hollywood. Being forever associated with John Travolta and Tom Cruise isn't exactly good for one's image.
@SeniorPonzologist_GitEmSteveDave: But rich chumps get their money from poor chumps, so it's all the same in the end.
@SeniorPonzologist_GitEmSteveDave: Not really.. they use the poor chumps as slave labor.
Seriously. Either that, or they make them take out huge loans from family or a 3rd mortgage..
[www.xenu.net]