I know how to fix this. Church of the Star-Named sci-fi things. Everyone that loves Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate, Battlestar Galactica, etc. on this side of the room. We have much larger numbers (and better stories). I'm already an ordained minister so I'll start, all the money we make goes to resurrecting our namesakes. Brannon Braga is obviously our anti-Christ.

OMFG! I just saw a shorter commercial. WTF MSNBC?

I swear, if Frank Herbert or Gene Roddenberry had done this I would be a card-carrying, couch-jumping member.

That is absolutely false, and a great lie. I believe in the Bible's authenticity 100%, and also respect science. In fact science helps me to appreciate the fantastic integrity of design the Bible has, and to take it *more* literally than I normally might.

Science's job is to make observations about the world around us. But it can only go so far. I doesn't answer philosophical questions very well. Where did I come from?, What happens when I die? These questions cannot be answered by science - which is why scientists are still arguing about them.

:)

I'm sorry if you thought I was finger-wagging. That wasn't my intent. I too am a lapsed Catholic; I have come to my conclusion after years and years of saying "Huh?" in church school and coming to my own understanding. Like reincarnation, for instance. I totally think that we can and do choose to incarnate more than once if we want to (although the idea of coming back as an animal is ludicrous).

I'm more oriented to Sylvia Browne-type stuff now than Catholicism, if I'm doing any "religious" stuff. Which doesn't sit well with some, since I live in the Buckle of the Bible Belt, or even with members of my own family. For instance, they don't get why I'm not screamingly afraid of death. Although I have to admit, I still enjoy some of the rituals of Catholicism because they are so familiar to me. I really am live-and-let-live with people as far as religion, as long as they don't use it to promote hatred. I HATE that and will challenge it at every turn. Hate sucks no matter how it's presented.

No matter what, I just don't believe that this is it. We are too complex and the soul is too strong a force to just...wink out after our bodies die. Plus, I've had some experiences with spiritual things that I just couldn't explain in any other way. Of course when it's my turn to go, I'll find out for sure. ;)

I don't think it has anything to do with religion. That's a human construct. I think it just is, no matter what religion or even what planet you're on. I don't go to church anymore unless I get a yen for childhood ritual. I talk to God all the time; I also talk to dead people, my spirit guides, etc. I just don't feel in my gut that they're GONE. From the earth, granted. From the Universe...never.

Hope that clears it up. :)

The absolute statement that a deity does not exist is as impossible to verify as the converse, that there is a deity.

Most intelligent atheists (or ones who have debated enough about it) would not claim that they do not "know."

I respect that you're an agnostic, I find it logical. They aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I don't believe in god (atheist), but I also believe it cannot be proven whether he exists or not (obviously)

I came to the conclusion that there is no god, because to me, there is no solid evidence to the contrary to prove god's existence. The presence of other believers and the fact that there are scriptures and churches is not proof.

Therefore, because I could find no solid proof of god's existence, I stopped believing (Catholic to Atheist).

I don't have a "belief," it's more of a disbelief.

My "disbelief" is the product of reasoning, not faith.

"The absolute statement that a diety does not exist requires just as much faith as the absolute statement that it does." I will grant you that. But if you try to imply that atheism in general requires faith, I hope you realize that position is untenable.

Of course, no hooman can say "There is no God, I know everything mwahahahaha!" in Richard Dawkins's smugness. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim, in this case for a deity. The person who doubts the existence of the deity does not have to "prove" that God doesn't exist, that's ridiculous. If you're able to get an atheist into that trap where you can claim that, then they're an idiot and need to stop mangling words. But no, there is nothing inherently illogical to atheism, just to how certain atheists present their arguments.

@banmojo: You're trying to sound-bite science, which doesn't generally work that way, explicitly to shore up young-earth creationism's fundamentally untenable position. However, I'll play ball: Please explain why God would give humans, his last and most precious creation, an eye which is strictly inferior to earlier models as displayed in the octopus.

In case you feel like actually understanding the science before you blindly parrot known fraudsters, you might try here for a start.

@BZMedia: The absolute statement that a diety does not exist requires just as much faith as the absolute statement that it does. Bringing science into the discussion is a straw man, and you really should know better - science, being a strictly empirical process, cannot even consider questions of religious matters. Bad atheist. No cookie. (For the record, I'm a hard-line agnostic - I find it too hard to take any position without any evidence whatsoever, so I simply say "I can't possibly know", and otherwise consider it irrelevant to my life.)

@banmojo: Really? What religious beliefs are those? As I understand it, saying "There is no god." is just as punishable as saying "Believe in Jesus!" in in the US school system.

I was confirming that my Baptist Church still do practice Tithe. But it is gave freely but not demanded as in reference to commenter saying church DEMANDS to give money.

I didn't even go to a "Jesus Camp" high school-we had two teachers who were openly atheists, one who was Jewish, and two Protestants. We learned evolution, and even sex education (even though we were discouraged, heavily discouraged from using contraception, we were taught about it). I think I got a great education, and some of the best and brightest teachers I've ever had were very religious. I'm not an atheist who enjoys proselytizing (I only talk about religion on the internet, not with people I know, it's just too sticky among my friends and family).

Anyway, my friend, the deist, said he had come to the conclusion that there is a laid back God who created the world and stepped away. I asked him, since he doesn't have a "religion," just a belief in God, that since you have no dogmas, teachings, just a vague personal sense of a God, the existence of God does not necessitate an afterlife.

The point being, I think whether God exists or not is a moot point. I think what we all care about is whether this is it, or we'll live forever. I believe the former, he somehow believes the latter. My point is, if you're Christian, your faith tells you about the other side, if you're just a deist, why does the existence of God necessitate an afterlife, especially if he's disinterested? I don't mean to offend anyone's sensibilities, I just found it an interesting personal conversation that we later brought up in our Philosophy of Religion class. Food for thought and all that, you know?

Anyway, I think a lot of us atheist folks get a bad rap. I certainly am friends with Catholic folk I went to high school with. I'm comfortable talking about it. I donate to charity and do volunteer work when I can. I'm a member of the American Humanist Association. I don't proselytize.

I just noticed a lot of hatred in this thread. I'm not a "bad," holier-than-thou atheist. I just am. And I don't hate religious people-the majority, from what I've seen (And having been one) are good, moderate human beings like my parents and family. There are some freaks at both extremes. Dawkins is a little blunt even for my taste. I don't judge all religious people by the nutjob Jerry Falwell type. Just let me not believe in peace

@TinkishDelight: Ahh the never ending argument between agnositcs and theists...I would have to say I'm with you on this one Tinkish

And I seriously hope someone does not pull the "because god hates gay people" line...

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply to my comment.

You do make some good points, but they really don't substantiate the claim that the Mormon church is cultist. Mormons believe that the Lamanites are ancestors of some tribes of Native Americans or South Americans, not African Americans. In fact, the Book of Mormon takes place somewhere in the Western Hemisphere predating America and slave trading. I will say that you are correct about the 1978 reversal, if pressed and asked why that ever existed and why it was reversed, the average Mormon, even educated Mormons would say in essence, "We don't know, but God does." Which, I agree, is a cop-out that most religions use for questionable doctrines.

Your second paragraph illustrates what I meant by further misinformation. It would be erroneous to say that the Mormons have "a whole raft of other holy books besides the Holy Bible." They do have a few, and they are: Holy Bible (Old King James Translation), Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price, nothing else is considered canon.

The reason Joseph Smith had a criminal record at all was because he was promoting a religion that localities didn't want, so they brought several charges against him to try to get rid of him (he was brought to trial several times, never found guilty). Those charges are questionable at the least.

There are no fringe groups that are recognized by the church that's HQ'd in Salt Lake City. Any "fringe" groups are usually made up of members that have been excommunicated, or they descended from excommunicates.

If people would pay any attention to the church's beliefs on Christ, they would see that the church is extremely Christian. The church's official name, after all is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In fact, there were very few, if not, no churches that had the name Jesus Christ in it when it was founded.

Yes, the Other Side exists. Whether you believe in God or not, it's there. And I don't think God does nothing; I think there are times when He can and does intercede, it's just that we're supposed to do for ourselves and make our own decisions. We come here to learn, so if He did everything that would kind of negate the point of being here.

I love how they sensor comments on the youtube site.

@magstheaxe:

What? What? What?

Religion has always supported science? Perhaps you should read up on Newton and Galileo. ([novan.com] or [en.wikipedia.org] for starters) You arguing that Christianity has always been some sort of cheerleader for science is frankly laughable. Perhaps YOU should do your own indpendent research and stop relying on what religion force feeds you.

Science in the Bible is in direct conflict with science as we know it today. Yes NOW religion has loosened its stance on literal interpretation of the Bible which is exactly the point that I was trying to make here

"How's that flat Earth working for you? Adam and Eve? Evolution? 2000 years? Sun going around the Earth? Oh wait, wait they're metaphors!!"

The Church and the majority of its followers (there are still some crazy creationists out there as evidenced in the thread above) will now say things like the Bible is poetic, metaphoric or a mere guideline, but when it comes to homosexuality that is somehow supposed to be taken literally? It's become a buffet of sorts. Pick and choose whatever suits you at that particular time. The 15 yo rape victim having an abortion is going to hell, but suddenly it's okay for me to get a divorce? It baffles me that others don't see the hypocrisy in this. That's what I mean when I say they are brainwashed. "Yes, this was wrong and that was wrong but what it actually meant was..." No, it does not work that way. It's especially infuriating when those hypocritical Christian "morals" find their way into our lawbooks.

To your second comment, I am agnostic so I am equally distrustful of ALL religions, Christianity just happens to have more of an impact of my daily life as an American.

If you want to continue this discussion we should probably take it to PM because we could argue this forever.

@econobiker: "Anyone ever see a soup kitchen or clothing drive run by Scientologists???"

Good point. Publically, they do have some charitable programs.

[www.scientology.org]

But according to various sources, the CoS tends to focus on programs where they don't have to lay out much in the way of money. So it's a "yeah, I'll help, so long as I don't have to write a check" approach.

There's also things like Downtown Medical ([en.wikipedia.org]), but that's just a glorified publicity stunt.

@TinkishDelight: "Just like anybody with money and power they too have influence, but the magnitude that Christianity has had (abortion, gay marriage, evolution in schools, sex education etc etc) it does not touch."

I will absolutely grant this, with two amendments:

(1) Scientology is an emerging religious movement. Which is the fancy sociological term for "recently-founded and not mainstream religion". They haven't have the history in the US that Christianity has, so naturally they haven't had a chance to build up their influence. However, it is most definitely a goal of theirs, so watch your back.

(2) I would also taks you to take a good hard look at the role of Judaisim on US policy as well, particularly regarding our foreign policy in the Middle East. In many ways, if not most, American Jews are having a bigger impact there than American Christians.

@TinkishDelight: " You're talking about religious people that also happened to be scientists? I lost you."

I'm talking about scientists who worked for the Catholic Church, and whose work was in part (and in many instances, completely) sponsored by the Catholic Church.

They weren't scientists who just happened to be religious, as ignorant people like to dismiss them these days. They were priests and monks and canons--full-on, card-carrying employees of the Church, who did the evangelical work of the church. They believed that the Bible taught that they had an obligation to understand better the world that God created; that doing science was God's work and therefore a holy pursuit. That belief was fully endorsed and supported by the Catholic Church--and when I say "supported", I mean real, tangible support, as in the Church was willing to spend money to see the research through.

If the Catholic Church had the literalist view that you seem to think is the only way Christians believe, they wouldn't have wasted time or money on research that disproved the fables of the Bible. The early Christian fathers (for example, St. Augustine) took a non-literal view of the so-called "facts" you mentioned. In fact, it was actually considered heretical at times to take the Bible literally (see Origen). These viewpoints laid the foundation for the Church embracing scientific research.

Islam has a similar history with science. The imams have taught for centuries that science is the tool by which Allah reveals himself to the world. Consequently, Islamic people pursued science with a vengance and were among the first in the world to treat the benefits of science as a public mandate of sorts. They created such now-taken-for-granted institutions as the public (as in, tax-supported) hospital, the public lending library (libraries had existed before but were private), the astonomical observatory as a research institute, and the first universities to issue diplomas. University of Al-Karaouine in Morocco is the world's oldest university--and to this day, it's part of a mosque.

The bottom line is this: a lot of people learn science, but they don't bother learning the _history_ of science. Which is why so many people are ignorant of the positive relationship that religion and science have historically had. Religion and science were usually seen as two sides of the same coin, complementing each other, so it was only natural that religion support scientific research.

Religion and science weren't always at each other's throats. There's a very strong argument that science could not have gotten where it was today without religion, because for a very long time religion was science's primary advocate. It's really only in the couple of hundred years or so (in the West, at least) that the relationship turned adversarial.

@TinkishDelight: "Regardless, relation fail."

*snicker* The fact that you actually write in all seriousness "relation fail" simply reveals a massive education fail on _your_ part, sugar. Go read some books or take a couple of courses on the history of science. It's a fascinating discipline.

Nor will a Catholic church. So what are you talking about?

Anyone ever see a soup kitchen or clothing drive run by Scientologists???

There's a simple test for a true religion, no money and no secrets. Cults are about money. Cults need secrets to protect that fact.

its more like a seminar series

$1 says you hear from their lawyer for using the "C" word to describe them though! have fun!

That's the level of production that millions of purloined dollars will buy.

I dated a scientoligist once, not fun...it was great, she was beautiful and sexy and nuts, but at the end of the day...when I maintained I wouldn't come with her to "church", it was off.

-Not fear being killed in a hotel by the "clergy" you serve under

-Be forced to eat a diet so high in niacin, it kills you

-Not need to sign a million-year contract for your SOUL

-Not have abortions forced upon you

-Leave without fear of having your pets poisoned, your stationary used to frame you for a threat against the FBI, false criminal files plastered all over towns

-Not need to sell yourself into slavery in order to learn more about the Holy Bible

-Be allowed use of medicine, receive care at ANY hospital you want, and not be kidnapped and starved and damn near eaten alive by roaches until you finally die while they drive you 30+ miles past numerous hospitals just to get to one supported by the church. Not that that's ever happened to any Scien*cough*LISA MCPHERSON*cough*tologist.

In the battle between "oh man, vague religious reference on my money" and "has openly murdered and ruined thousands of lives and has enough power to get special preferences by the IRS that no other religion has"...

Well, I never heard anything about the Pope mandating two shots from a .45 Revolver into the head of every psychiatrist, just sayin'.

Both beautiful and inspirational commercial. It's sad, however, that it's coming from Scientology. Some, who are watching this, who are searching with dreams, hopes and aspirations, will unfortunately, be depleted of their bank accounts in addition to being distanced from their families as they fall deeper into the money making, clearly a religious facade, manipulating schemes known as Scientology. Gotta give them kudos for this great video though. But hey, the devil just got slicker.

The Old Testament says you're supposed to give 10% because that was the Jewish law. According to this site: it says so in these verses: (Leviticus 27:30; Numbers 18:26; Deuteronomy 14:24; 2 Chronicles 31:5)

The New Testament doesn't specify a percentage but says you should give a reasonable amount and be a cheerful giver. Again, see the link above.

@XBL: Legend xKWx (Kyle):
You don't understand, she's CATHOLIC, not going to change religions, no, no, no. She wanted to re-marry in the Catholic church. If you're divorced you must obtain an annulment from the Catholic church in order to have your second wedding in the church. The only annulment the Catholic church recognizes is the one issued by them. And you gotta pay for it.

I kinda feel that way myself. I feel as if God set the universe into motion, and watched it grow. It's kind of like his kid and he can mess with it and guide it but mostly it does its own thing. Science is our way of discovering and understanding its complexity, and learning how it works (and how it doesn't).

Exactly. Mother Teresa had no money, but she lived with the poor and took care of them and tirelessly worked to help them in any way that she could. Talk about doing your duty.

I grew up saying the Rosary. I can say a whole Rosary in fifteen minutes. I never got it either, but when I say one (which is very infrequent and only when I feel like making a sacrifice for whatever I'm asking for, because I know God knows I HATE saying Rosaries), I feel like I have made my point better than if I didn't say it.

About the financial statement, I love knowing where any money I give goes. Although I don't go to church any more, that would have made me feel better about putting money in the basket than if it just went in there and I didn't know.

You mean CEASE and desist, but yes, you probably would.

Which is pretty indicative of a cult trying to silence its detractors so as to conceal its seamier practices that, if word got out about them, might spoil recruitment.

Let's go down the list shall we?
1. Tiered pricing model means those who pay more are allowed to learn more teachings of the church.
2. Advertising, celebrity spokespeople.
3. Merchandise, official health care, etc.
4. It is impossible to get off their mailing list. I know someone who was once a member of the church that has changed addresses and last names and they STILL get phone calls on a weekly basis.
5. It threatens it's detractors and critics with expensive litigation, and has a well paid army of lawyers.
6. It's for profit.

Then there are aspects of the "religion" that are more akin to a crime syndicate. #5 ties in to that, but toss in blackmail, character assassination, and more. Seriously. Look up Operation Snow White, seriously, that is some freaky shit.

That's pretty culty.

By the way: Why do spell check engines recognize "Scientology" and not "Obama". At least they fixed the "Osama" replacement word.

@KyleOrton: Right, Scientology is the Bernie Madoff of the religions.

@youbastid: and @Everyone else who is misinformed about Mormons.

My wife is Mormon, (I am not, I am of Christian faith, and choose not to go to ANY church) and I can't believe what I'm seeing that's stated as fact. The Mormon church does not require 10% of your income you dumbass. We've lived in 4 different states, and she's attended 4 different mormon churches. Guess what? I've never had the Mormon Revenue Service knocking at my door demanding 10%.

And to the other fellow suggesting that Mormons believe in someone living on another planet, that is again a bunch of BS. While I don't believe in what they teach, they are neither a cult nor a scam. They are very nice people who bend over backwards to help each other out, and require no money in return.

Please everybody, stop spreading baseless rumors as facts about a religion you know nothing about. Assholes.

@magstheaxe:

The first half of your comment. Fine. I'll concede (although I didn't actually look at the links bc I'm halfway out the door but seeing as one is Gawker I'll assume it's snarky and delicious). Just like anybody with money and power they too have influence, but the magnitude that Christianity has had (abortion, gay marriage, evolution in schools, sex education etc etc) it does not touch.

The second half of you comment was... in response to someone else? I was talking about specific "facts" IN THE BIBLE (you know, that book the Christianity is based on) that the church only recently admitted not being true. You're talking about religious people that also happened to be scientists? I lost you. Regardless, relation fail.

@MitchV: LOL!!!!

@aen: "Typically, people who believe that the Mormon church is a cult are also grossly misinformed or ignorant about its beliefs"

Actually, they tend know the beliefs better than the average Mormon. Such as their long-standing teachings about the Lamanites (or as non-Mormons call them, African-Americans). It wasn't until 1978 that the church abolished the practice that kept black men from seeking priesthoods and black women from participating in temple ceremonies.

But even disregarding that (and let's face it, the LDS has done a huge about-face in this area since the '80s), there's issues around which books are canon (the Mormons have a whole raft of other holy books besides the Holy Bible, Christians do not accept these books at all), doctrines about the nature of God (a man from the planet of Kolob, to name just one), the wholesale importation of Freemason ceremonies into the church, and Joseph Smith's criminal record that place the LDS firmly outside of mainstream Christianity--and even a lot of fringe groups, for that matter.

@TinkishDelight: "Christianity influences policy in the US. Scientology does not."

You're not paying attention, sugar:

[www.clambake.org]

[gawker.com]

Also, John Coales was until recently the head of SarahPAC (the committee formed to work on getting Sarah Palin elected) was one of the country's most prominent Scientologists.

"How's that flat Earth working for you? Adam and Eve? Evolution? 2000 years? Sun going around the Earth?"

Nicholas Copernicus was the first astronomer to formulate a comprehensive heliocentric cosmology--and he was also a Catholic priest.([en.wikipedia.org])
. How does _that_ work for _you_?

How about the Big Bang theory--does that work for you? Oh wait, no, that must be bullshit, because it's a theory that was postulated by a Catholic priest working at a Catholic university ([en.wikipedia.org]). What about genetic theory...oh wait, nope, must be b.s. as well, because it was proposed by a monk working at an Augustinian abbey ([en.wikipedia.org]). For that mattter, calculus must be bullshit too, since it arose from mathematical research conducted by Jesuit priests ([en.wikipedia.org]). What else? We can also disregard the existence of binary stars, since it was yet another Jesuit priest who discovered them. Oh, Egyptology, we can throw that out, obviously Fr. Kirscher contaminated that ([en.wikipedia.org]). And induction coils, too, since those were invented by Fr. Callan ([en.wikipedia.org]).

I can keep going, but suffice to day that you need to do a little research on the Catholic Church's contributions to science--including in areas where their scientific findings directly contradict the Church's religious teachings --before you trot out such tired old arguments.

I mean, hell, man. I'm not even Catholic and I know thie stuff.

I guess this would make your head explode. And this would make you vaporize completely.

Yes, I believe either one of these theories before I can honestly accept the idea of an all-powerful being. Because they were conceived in the search for truth, for truth's sake, not as a coverup for social and political enforcement.

@banmojo:

"Atheism- the religion devoted to ones own smug sense of superiority"

-Old School Colbert

Seriously, I find it increeeeeeeedibly hard to believe you're a zoologist who doesn't "believe" in evolution. That's pretty much the basis of your profession. I can't imagine how you'd make any progess while denying that ever-present scientific nugget. Do you also take issue with gravity? Suggesting that others find science infallible? Really? Nothing in science is fact. Nothing. That's why they're always referred to as theories no matter how much evidence supports them. Sketchty sketchy sketchy.

That's odd, because the directors of the movie themselves admitted it was based on Buddhism after the similarities were pointed out.

If you don't like science, fine, home school your kids. Teach them the world is flat too, while you're at it.

I have a great idea. I am going to compare this religion to Christianity. I'm gonna blow people's minds with this megaton bomb. No one will ever see this remarkable point of view coming and I can spark some really deep debates. All of which I will win. Yeah, that's the ticket.....

I know plenty. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but Buddhism isn't exactly shrouded in mystery with only the devoted holding the keys either.

A few basic points from Buddha Dharma Education Association:

1. There is no almighty God in Buddhism. There is no one to hand out rewards or punishments on a supposedly Judgement Day.

2. Buddhism is strictly not a religion in the context of being a faith and worship owing allegiance to a supernatural being.

3. No saviour concept in Buddhism. A Buddha is not a saviour who saves others by his personal salvation. Although a Buddhist seeks refuge in the Buddha as his incomparable guide who indicates the path of purity, he makes no servile surrender. A Buddhist does not think that he can gain purity merely by seeking refuge in the Buddha or by mere faith in Him. It is not within the power of a Buddha to wash away the impurities of others

4. A Buddha is not an incarnation of a god/God (as claimed by some Hindu followers). The relationship between a Buddha and his disciples and followers is that of a teacher and student.

5. The liberation of self is the responsibility of one's own self. Buddhism does not call for an unquestionable blind faith by all Buddhist followers. It places heavy emphasis on self-reliance, self discipline and individual striving.

I've spent a lot of my time here on Earth researching various religions and philosophies, and just because you declare it to be "your" religion, neither makes it "yours" nor "religion" nor exclusive from scrutiny and criticism.

(Of course Buddha isn't a god, no one here said he was.)

@youbastid:
A friend of mine who was divorced and wanted to re-marry in the Catholic Church was told she would have to get an annulment first and to get that she had to pony up almost $1000.
So you're right, money grubbing goes on in the Catholic Church

1. The concept of treating others as one would wish to be treated has been co-opted by many religions, but it is not a religious invention or discovery. It's an evolutionary behavioral pattern based on reason and human nature.

2. How exactly should one acquire knowledge of the true teachings of the Christ, anyway? By reading a book written by people born many generations after his reported death (or return to the heavenly kingdom, or whatever)? By listening to teachings of a church built upon the same book?

I'm so tired of the religious speaking as if they have a corner on morality. The two are not mutually inclusive. I have a very strong sense of morality, and no use whatsoever for religion. Belief is okay until it becomes a doctrine passed on to others with no expectation of arriving at the same conclusions on their own. Believe what makes sense to you, and what feels right. Forget about "religion." It's full of arbitrary rules that have nothing to do with the Golden Rule, and everything to do with the mindset of whichever group was in charge at the time of the most recent revision of the dogma.

@katstermonster: @magstheaxe: Christianity influences policy in the US. Scientology does not.

Global warming we won't believe because there isn't enough evidence to support it, but we're supposed to just trust some random book thought up and decided upon by people of power years ago despite science proving it wrong time and time again? How's that flat Earth working for you? Adam and Eve? Evolution? 2000 years? Sun going around the Earth? Oh wait, wait they're metaphors!! It's horrendously nonsensical. There is no other theory that gets the free reign that religion does. The scientific method was created for a reason. The Church has spun their lies and packaged it in a pretty bow and titled it faith. No, we don't have any evidence of a flying spaghetti monster, just have faith that it's there! People are too brainwashed (yes brainwashed) to even question it. It's 2009! With all our scientific and technological advances, why is this still relevant? It should have gone the way of Greek mythology years ago. Now you have politicians running on Christian platforms making decisions based on their religious beliefs that effect MY life and folks rally right behind them. It's just insane.

@ALL: I want to clarify that I consider the idea of "God wants your money" to be a fallacy, not the idea of giving itself. I love the good work that many churches and religious organizations do because if there were a God I think that's exactly what he/she would want - helping your fellow man when they are in need, regardless of their own religious proclivities. As I said, I'm an atheist, but I'm not an asshole. I donate to worthy causes, both my time and my money. I just object to the churches that guilt-trip a congregation into giving money for nebulous reasons, only for it to end up in the preacher's pocket. (Benny Hinn, I'm looking at you.) The preachers who do this seem the most likely to say "God needs your money," not "the community" or "the church" needs it.

@pecan 3.14159265: Same here. Church I grew up in does weekly numbers, plus an annual report about how much was collected and what it was spent on.

They just put the numbers on how many people gave to stress how easy it would be to hit their monetary goals. No names were given...the 5% knew who they were, and so did the 50%! Heh.

Your argument does not persuade. Science is the discipline of proving. Religion is the discipline of blind faith. We can create life in a lab. Who's God now?

One question for the thumpers: What about the dinosaur bones?

And no, there were not dinosaurs and humans living together 5000 years ago. That was a TV show called Land of the Lost. And no, God did not bury them here to "test you". And no, God did not plop down Adam, yank out his rib and whittle it into a woman who had a conversation with a talking snake. Noah did not go around collecting two mosquitos, two ebola viruses, two ravenous crocodiles, etc. and put them all on a big wooden boat. These are children's stories.

The entire story of Jesus is a ripoff of a ripoff of a ripoff. The exact same story has been used for different gods for thousands of years BEFORE Jesus. December 25th, virgin birth, 12 disciples, rising from the dead on the third day, the whole enchilda.... it's all a rehash of OTHER gods. This over-used story was based on movement of the stars, not some guy that got nailed to a cross.

It saddens me that here in 2009, there are still people that cling to religion and believe it word for word as though they were a child being told the story of the tooth fairy.

@youbastid: Huh? Please explain...

I know it's pretty obvious by now, but you really have no idea what you're talking about. There are gods and goddesses in Buddhism, heavens and hells, demons and angels and everything in between. It is a religion, whether or not you believe it is. Please stop pretending that common misconceptions are the truth.

@banmojo: "(who btw have their OWN religious beliefs which they have enforced BY LAW to be taught in our public school system)"

What the hell does this mean? Atheists don't have religious beliefs; please look up the definition of it. And please enlighten me as to what religious beliefs atheists have forced on our schools. (Hint: NONE.)

The Church of Scientology has a right to exist and to say what they wish, outside of that, but we also have every right to speak out against its actions if we so choose.

@1stMarDiv: Trader's World is only a stone's throw away from Solid Rock "Touch Down Jesus" Church... so I guess you'll have that.

Then again, I've never met anyone who actually attended that church. Maybe they're just really nice, down to earth people that have tacky, tacky decorating choices?

Probably less crazy than Scientologists but the same amount of gloss on top.

All churches (at least the Christian ones, which includes Catholicism) are at least up-front as to what the dogma of their religion happens to be and you can ask anyone and, for the most part, everyone from the top down subscribes to roughly the same thing. You have to be in Scientology for quite some time and for a truck-load of dollars before you even hear of Xenu and his magical quadrillion year empire. That right there sounds like a bait and switch. Come in for the analysis, get chained by the intergalactic despot.

Me: I'm really tired of these religious nuts coming to my door peddling their salvation.

Him: Yeah, but what can you do?

Me: I've begun just slamming the door on them.

Him: That won't work, they will just keep coming back.

Me: I know, I don't understand it. I don't go door to door trying to convince people out of religion. Why do they keep coming back?

Him: They want to save you dude.

Me: But if that was the case, if it was so important and it really was about saving my soul for all eternity and they KNOW this, why wouldn't they tackle me and make me understand that the consequences are too horrible to imagine? I mean, we're talking about eternity here right?

Him: It's a business dude. Even God has a profit margin.

It's a cult, and a particularly unlawful and nasty one.

you believe in evolution, even to the point you think Creationists are crazy myth believing idiots, and you think science is infallible? or something close to that?

well, it takes a great deal MORE faith to believe that the simplest form of life, the prokaryotic cell, could arise from the primordial soup then it does to accept that complex structures likely are created by something intelligent.

All you have is 1. raw matter 2. raw energy 3. randomly interacting throughout 4. finite time............ and PRESTO, suddenly there's a little self sustaining prokaryotic cell in the soup!! Then it mutates into higher and higher life forms!!!! Wow!!!!

Sorry dude, NOW who's fallen sucker to a REAL myth???

If you are referring to evolution, it is not a religion nor is it considered one by anyone but bible thumpers. There are mountains of hard scientific evidence supporting evolution, and not a single thread supporting God. (Burt Reynold's image in a piece of toast is not proof of God). The very definition of athiest is "the rejection of theism, or the assertion that deities do not exist. In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities." [en.wikipedia.org]

So I take offense to your declaration that I have some other religious belief.

Let's look at a few things: Jesus made a living by carpentry and likely also by fishing. He lived very modestly as far as we know. Paul made his living as a tent maker, so that he did NOT have to ask for money to live off of from his 'flock'.

The Bible tells us to live modestly, and within our means; it says we should be 'good stewards' of all the gifts that God has given us - this includes our $$ and bank accounts/investments/etc.

It tells us to discipline our kids as required, and to raise them well (ethically/morally). It lauds education.

If someone is giving money 'to God', they should be doing it because the Spirit is inside them and compelling them to do so, NOT because they think this will get them into heaven or into a cushier life - the bible does NOT teach that. Humans have perverted the Word and misused true religion to gain more power, and to start wars (an attempt to gain more power through force). This should NOT give cause for someone to question the Source, this DOES give cause for us to look closely at all religions and find the problems/inconsistencies/untruth - and if found, realize that that is likely NOT a true religion.

From the belief system, it is absolutely no different than any other religion. That was my original point.

From the way it extracts money, there are myriad differences, many of which you pointed out. But the Vatican wasn't built out of straw and bricks. I don't mean to single out Catholicism, it's just the one that keeps coming up. There are plenty others.

That's not just scientology, as every religion typically does the same by indoctrinating their youth, but Scientology just seems so skeevy about it while standing on the street corners passing out pamphlets.

"Joooiiiiin Uuusssss. Moneeeeey. We want mooooneeeeyyy. Arrrraaahhhghgggghh."

@BZMedia:

"What's the one Madonna was into? Kabala or something? Where you have to wear a string around your wrist to show how unique you are."

She follows the teachings of The National Research Institute of Kabbalah:

[en.wikipedia.org]

They're a batshit insane version of a mystical aspect of Judaism. Their contributions include claiming that their bottled water cures cancer and that the Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves because they didn't follow Kabbalah ([news.bbc.co.uk])

Can't say there's anything positive about religion when it has been the number one cause of war, terrorism, greed, torture, slavery, class warfare, and genocide throughout history. And if you think the "organized" religions are somehow better than Scientology, it is the organized religions that spin off mini-cults, like the people than are convinced to sign over their homes, drink poison koolaid, strap a bomb to themselves and blow up buildings. It is the organized religions molesting boys and sticking their noses into politics. These are all acts done in the name of God and Allah. And it is much more relevant than some artist being inspired or some child in a far away land being taught to read the bible so that he can further propagate the lies and brainwashing.

The discovery of rubber or the creation of things like the printing press are irrelevant. Are you suggesting that we would still be living in caves without God?

Weekends are a natural break in workflow. People cannot work continuously without a break. It would've happened eventually anyway in a free society.

Hospitals are a business. Period. At least in the US they are. No money, no insurance, out you go.

Ophanages are kind of a necessary fact of life are they not? What do they have to do with religion?

Social services? We wouldn't have these without God? We would be living in anarchy, brutally murdering each other at every opportunity, kicking each other when we're down? It's God that prevents us from being complete savages?

Buddhism technically isn't a religion. It's a philosophy. There is no God involved.

And which religion do you consider to be the correct one? They are all quite different. They all can't be right. But according to one of them, if you don't believe in Jesus, that's it, you're gonna burn forever. All of this coming from some book written by people, not God. According to another one, there are an army of virgins waiting for you if you commit mass murder.

Positive aspects? There are far more positive effects to be gained by NOT blindly following the edicts of an invisible man floating in the clouds.

re: aen: "I think it shows poor taste and ignorance to compare Scientology with Mormonism."

Really? The Mormon idea of the dude living on another planet is somehow credible to you over Scientology? The fact that if you question this idea for an instant will result in you being completely outcast from not only the church, but family and friends as well is somehow perfectly rational to you?

listen, friend, I'm sorry you've had such a bad perspective of religions in general - I've seen many many dickheads doing bad things and saying it was for religious reasons, and that's just plain wrong. I do agree with you there.

Pseudochristians - these are MOST of those who call themselves Christians. If you read the 4 Gospels, then look at the 'fruits of the tree' you will SEE CLEARLY these people may call themselves followers of Christ but are actually living lives that follow the devil (ie. selfish, mean, unethical, narcissistic, etc etc)

I can call myself a Buddhist, but if you look at my life's actions, you'll clearly see I'm not a Buddhist at all. Just saying so doesn't make it true - a man's ACTIONS defines who he is more than anything else.

@Venkman: "At least Scientology hasn't carried out crusades against heathens in the name of righteousness... yet"

Clearly you've not been paying attention to CoS's crusade against psychiatry:

[www.scientology-lies.com]

finally, you have a problem with "do unto others as you would have them do unto you?"?? True religion does exist, and it is not self seeking, it is not money grubbing, it does not aspire to political power or any personal worldly gain. It is fanatical, even to the point of death, but if all people followed the true teachings of the Christ, this world would look like a utopia - that's fact. read up on His purported words in the first 4 books of the NT sometime. you might be surprised at what you find out there

@TinkishDelight: The vast majority of Christian churches (I won't pretend there aren't rogue churches out there...) allow you to leave the church at your pleasing, with no negative consequences. Your family doesn't have to excommunicate you. They won't attempt to ruin your image publicly. Etc.

The beliefs being as weird? I can get on that boat. But do NOT claim for one moment that the brainwashing of Christianity is deep-rooted and widespread. I was raised Catholic and I am NOT brainwashed, thankyouverymuch.

@FrugalFreak: Catholic churches won't either. Or at least, most of them won't.

At my church, I was once told that 5% of the parish did 90% of the giving...and over 50% gave nothing, ever.

@BZMedia: Um, what church are you going to? My pastor drives a 10-year-old Subaru and lives in a sparse apartment on church property.

Yes, sure, this seems logical. You don't believe in God - how would you like for me to say all atheists/agnostics are pure evil regardless of how much good they can do for others? It doesn't matter whether they're good people, they don't believe in what I believe? They're evil!

@magstheaxe: Thank you! :) What I was trying to say, but in many more and better-phrased words.

@TinkishDelight: "To me Christianity is actually scarier because the brainwashing is deep rooted and widespread. At least my money doesn't say "In Xenu we trust"."

Learn a little more about Scientology before you decide any other religon is scarier:

[www.time.com]

[youfoundthecard.com]

[www.xenu.net]

Humans, that is. Forgive me, I was born in Cincinnati. :D

@1stMarDiv: Of course they didn't look terribly educated. Trader's World is maybe 25 minutes from Cincinnati.

Hmans will invariably flock to those who tell them exactly what they want to hear.

Your DUTY is to support your congregation (help print the newsletter, volunteer to run a youth program, or conduct bible study, or give the offering that week or whatever it's called) and help your community in any way you can. You don't HAVE to show your support in a monetary sense.

@BZMedia:

[South Park]

Mr. Connolly: Is it any more retarded than the idea of God sending his only son down to die for our sins? Is it any more retarded that Buddha sitting beneath a tree for twenty years?

Stan: Yeah, it's way, way more retarded.

[/South Park]

The Matrix has you...

@BZMedia: "Just stating that is the type of shaming I'm talking about. Why the hell would God be concerned about whether or not I can give him money?"

Because there's about three thousand lines in the Bible alone about how God's followers should help the poor. Ideally, that's what that money is for: helping the infirmed, the widowed, the hungry, the orphaned. Anyone who's been involved in charitable work knows that there's overhead involved with helping the poor, so it's reasonable to expect a portion of that money to go to cover expenses, but the bulk should be for a church's community outreach programs of different sorts.

"People are literally guilted into giving money to the church. I've witnessed family members quite literally give away their life savings trying to buy a better seat in heaven."

What the hell "church" did you attend? You're not describing a mainstream Christian church. It sounds like a televanglist at work.

"And it bothers me that some preacher can be wearing $5k suits, driving a Mercedes, and living in an 18k sq ft mansion on tax-free money, and continuing to tell his "flock" once a week "These are trying times and God really needs your donations now"."

AND IT SHOULD BOTHER YOU. Because if you see a church where that sort of thing is happening, it's not doing the work God commanded it do to. It's a building full of hypocrites being led by a hypocrite in a pastor's collar.

"Assuming we all believe in this nonsense for just a moment, God doesn't need money. People do."

Exactly. And that's why the Bible, the Talmud, and the Qu'ran talk so much about the poor and why people should help them.

"Scientology should not be singled out as evil, because that's assuming that the rest are not."

There's considerable evidence to indicate mainstream religion--and quite a few fringe ones--are not evil. Scientology, on the other hand, has for years blatently run in the US an organized crime scam that John Gotti would envy.

"RELIGION is evil. And we, as a species, need to get beyond this archaic fairy tale mentality and grow up or we are all going to die for something with no more substance than a dream.

"It is the biggest wide-open con game running in the world today. All of it. One is no better than the rest."

Christopher Hitchens? Is that you?

In all seriousness: if you can't see the difference between Scientology and organized religions (notice that I didn't say OTHER organized religions, because Scientology isn't one--it's a glorified pyramid scheme), I don't know what to tell you. Not being able to see the difference between the two is like not being able to see the difference between intelligent design (not even a remotely scientific hypothesis) and evolution (scientifically valid and proven for all intents and purposes).

Now, this was YEARS ago, I haven't gone in a while, but even given my agnosticism, I would hesitate to say that religion is evil.

And here is why: I recently went to a rosary service (done the day before the funeral) of a friend and she was a nonpracticing Catholic. Catholic rosary (Byzantine Catholic to boot), and the comfort that I saw 90% of the people there taking in, honestly made me jealous. I didn't have something to comfort me, well, the shot of Maker's Mark later, but at the time, the peace that was put on those mourners faces after doing the rosary, together, for an hour, was absolutely maddening to me. Maddening because I didn't feel that peace, I didn't get the "healing" power of the Hail Marys and Our Fathers. I still know them word for word, but I couldn't get it.

So, I don't know that all religions are evil, just based on that right there. Misguided, quite possibly, but evil. Nah.

The Goddess does not need your money.

Of course, all these exchanges are recorded and saved for future blackmail in case the person might want to leave.

That's kind-of an idiot response; I can believe in purple giraffes, but it doesn't make me not an idiot or make my belief worthy of respect. However, if you'd like to be intellectually honest, God isn't a thing amenable to EITHER proof OR disproof, so standing so hard on disproof is no more honest than insisting very hard on proof.

But this statement that there are NO positive aspects of religion is wildly overbroad. There's nothing positive in something that brings a dying person comfort? Nothing positive in the art and music religion has inspired? No positive developments like weekends, the discovery of genetics, the basis for religious freedom (John Milton's Areopagitica gives a religious justification of religious freedom that forms the intellectual underpinning's of the US Constitution's guarantees), the discovery of synthetic rubber, etc? Nothing positive in a push for universal literacy to enable everyone to read the Bible, or the development of the printing press for same? Nothing positive in hospitals, orphanages, social services agencies, and so forth, run by religious groups? Nothing positive in the Solidarity movement in Poland? Or in Buddhist involvement in pushback against China in Tibet? NOTHING positive, really?

If the church you attend is misusing donations you are free to leave, in fact you have a duty to find a place where they will be used appropriately. The same goes for any nonprofit organization you support.

@angelzero: In fact they do. You can hire enough lawyers, lobbyists, and other powerful members to force legitimacy. I understand the CoS legal team is monstrous.

Keep on ragin' bro! Take down those evil churches that help the poor and run hospitals!

@Mecharine: L. Ron Hubbard. Not that I disagree with you.

@youbastid:

This argument gets trotted out every time someone points out that Scientology is a cult.

Let's say, for sake of argument, that you convert to Catholic Christianity. While there are classes to bring you up to speed on your new religion's dogma and so forth, they're either free or relatively cheap--you might have to pay for classroom materials. You also (and here's the important part) DO NOT NEED TO TAKE THEM. You can go to a Catholic Church and participate in the Sunday Services (sing hymns, take communion, etc.) without having to pay a dime.

The Church of Scientology, on the other hand, has courses and auditing sessions that are required. They cost money. It requires spending many thousands of dollars to take all the OT classes. And it's only after you've spent those many thousands of dollars and been brainwashed for months (if not years), that you find out about Xenu and Teeagaack and all the cheesy sci-fi elements of this so-called religion.

Yeah, that's right. All that stuff isn't public knowledge. (Okay, it's a little more public after that one South Park episode, but the point is still there). There's not some super-secret version of the Bible that you only get to look at after 15 years of faithful service and huge stacks of cash donations to the Vatican. There's no super-secret version of the Qu'ran or the Talmud.

And how many other religions do you know of that have trade secrets? Yeah, the Church of Scientology protects the OT coursework under the laws governing trade secrets (copyright and trademark laws). The Bible, the Talmud, the Qu'ran are not only public domain, but the respective churches actively continue to give them away in order to promote believe. Sciencetology makes you pay into the hundreds of thousands of dollars to get to their basic doctrine.

And let's not forget that for much of its history, Scientology _wasn't even a church_. L. Ron Hubbard started dianetics as a counseling techinique designed to be an alternative to psychotherapy. Even though it was popular at first, it was still quack medicine, and Hubbard's Dianetic Research Foundation was forced into bankruptcy when the New Jersey Board of Medical Examiners instituted proceedings against them. Then the IRS started nosing around. THAT'S when Scientology decided to get incorporated as a church.

There's a lot more that I could go into, but the "Scientology is no different than Catholicism" line is a load of horseshit. Catholicism has plenty of problems, to be sure, but it's not an organized crume ring masquerading as a church like Scientology is.

(Now, if one compares Scientology to Mormonism, you get a little different story. While Latter-Day Saints are able to participate in Sunday services and basic salvation rites [baptism, confirmation, priesthood]-- they are NOT able to participate in the higher ordinances of the church without taking out their endowments at the temple. Guess what one of the qualifications for attending temple is: being a full tithe payer!)

It doesnt help that Hubbert's entire family was at one point found guilty of tax evasion.

Dont know much about Mormonism, though it sounds equally shady to me. Same thing with "Evangelical" megachurches, which have recently been found to be big scams as well.

But Tithing is "Giving Freely" out of God's commandment. Protestant churches like baptists will never kick you out even if you never give a penny.

And not all Christians are on a power trip. I was just talking to a guy from North Korea, where you get tortured and killed if they find out you're a Christian. He had some interesting stories. Then there's the guys I've known who've been studying the Bible and known God for 50 years or more. They don't seem like the kind of guys who want to abuse people or extort or brainwash anyone. They're usually the most humble people I've ever met.

The only reason they're a religion is because it was tax deductible. Stars who're REALLY into Scientology have the various studios pay the Scientology centers their entire paychecks for movies, and then the CoS buys things, and "allows" the stars to use it. Tom Cruise doesn't own his house, the CoS owns it, and lets him live there, tax free. All of the money that Tom got from MI3 went right to the CoS, which buys things for Tom and allows him use of it, all tax free.

As for the religious part of it, if people want to believe that they're haunted by alien ghosts that were put on this planet before the creation of the universe, that's fine, more power to them. When they force people into slavery, debt, and sue the IRS until the IRS gives up, that's a different matter.

I have a problem with the church, not the religion.

Jesus likes the broke better. It's called the "preferential option for the poor." And Yes, Yes, and Yes. Although ideally he'd be hooked into the social services my church provides to try to help with the homelessness problem. But then, I don't go to a sexy, interesting church with power point presentations.

""Not my fault, it's God's will". "I can't help it, I'm a sinner, and fundamentally flawed." "God told me to do it.""

None of these is a legitimate excuse in Christianity, and people who are doing it are doin' it rong. (And in any organization of any size, you'll have plenty of people doin' it rong.) (Well, maybe "God told me to do it" but I'm hoping God told them to help the poor and the sick and the hungry, and I'm guessing from context that's not what you're talking about.)

Well, if you consider being forced to go to sunday school and church every week of my entire childhood as positive, then yeah. Married once into a Catholic family. Biggest hypocritical nutcases of all.

But as far as I'm concerned, there are no positive aspects of religion. You're choosing to believe in a fairy tale that has no more credibility or benefit than believing in dragons and trolls and wookies and the muppets. 100% waste of time and resources.
And I know... the popular response is, "But it's my faith, it's what I believe in." Well so what. I can have faith and believe that next week I'm going to magically turn into a tree. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. Why? Because it's not real and as an intelligent adult I know the difference between reality and make-believe.

Scientology is a business masquerading as a religion.

I do agree with your point though... tithing is a matter between you and God. However, we are supposed to be generous to those in need! And it's ok to challenge each other to be generous in this way...

The problem comes when the pastor of a church is doing this challenging, and people take it as "he's just trying to pad his own pockets" because people are sensitive about money.

Our old church never passed a collection plate, and neither do we. We figure if you want to give you will find the best way to do so.

But I think the difference is, that's a held-over belief from a pre-scientific age. Scientology's mind-bullets are post-WWII and a total scam.

Sure, Mormonism requires 10% of income (which comes from an Old Testament commandment) in order to be considered worthy to enter temples, but that money doesn't make anybody rich. In fact, there are no paid clergy in the Mormon church. All of that money goes to future buildings, maintenance, missionary efforts, and humanitarian efforts among other things.

Typically, people who believe that the Mormon church is a cult are also grossly misinformed or ignorant about its beliefs. Considering the Mormon church to be a cult based off its beginnings is tantamount to calling Christianity a cult (or Scientology as someone pointed out) based off its origins.

This is very true, and in the US, a fairly serious problem with "prosperity Gospel" churches. (As a theologian, I think is a big giant honkin' heresy of gargantuan proportions in the classic sense of the word, but I digress.) But really the majority of religious groups use their money for legitimate purposes, and one can fairly easily protect oneself against the scammy ones or the "enrich the preacher" ones ... if they won't let you inspect the books, you need to go elsewhere. Virtually every major religious organization in the US has requirements that member groups follow certain accounting standards and be accountable to the community for money spent.

But, oh, man, do those money-grubbing ones piss me the hell off.

(My parish doesn't even say God wants my money. My parish says, "Dude, we need a new roof or we're going to get wet." God's probably not particularly concerned if we're in a building or in a field, but most of us people-types like the building.)

enough of this holier than though attitude. Anyone with an inkling of "faith" in the supernatural is a complete hypocrite for attacking another persons "faith" in a different supernatural. Why can't we just recognize the garden for its beauty instead of pretending a magic fairy somehow made it.

So, what I am saying is, that critics interpret "God wants you to give" as a "gimme all your money" as compared to "Dude, help this poor bloke out, will you?" as it should be. (And I am sure, any tolerant respectable place of worship will be cool with that).

That is part of their "Global obliteration of Psychology campaign" to expose and rid the psychology industry.

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Mormons (no offense guys) are the Scientology of the 1830s, so that makes sense.

Though I suppose the same could be said about most if not all religions. Combine a bit of common sense, a lot of crazy mythology and wait a few decades or centuries until it sinks into the collective cultural landscape.

And saying "religion" is evil is an enormous blanket statement. Many evils have been done in the name of religion, but it has also inspired mankind to many great things, and brings comfort and peace to millions of people. Have you really never, ever been exposed to any of the positive aspects of religion? (In general, not one in particular.)

And if you really, truly don't think there's a difference between Scientology and, say, Methodism in terms of a "con game," you either don't know much about Scientology or you don't know much about Methodism.

Scientology have gotten a better marketing department.

Or, as my dear departed Mom used to say "SOSOS - Same old sh*t only softer."

Sorry, but there it is again. Very subtle, but still there. The never ending guilt trip. So, I can still go to the party, but I'm a lesser Christian or have to live with my guilt because I ignored my DUTY. Where in the bible is my financial duty spelled out for me? What about the broke and homeless? If a stinking unwashed homeless man wearing rags and no shoes showed up at your church on Sunday, would he be allowed in? Would he be allowed in on a regular weekly basis? His homeless friends too?

In religion, I see nothing but hypocrisy, greed, brainwashing, and excuses in place of responsibility. It's the easy way out for a lot of people. "Not my fault, it's God's will". "I can't help it, I'm a sinner, and fundamentally flawed." "God told me to do it." "God works in mysterious ways." and infinite interpretations of cryptic text based on the stone age.

@craptastico: Didn't he also say that "in order to control peoplt you have to lie to them"? or something along those lines..

@SybilDisobedience: Couldn't agree with you more.

@SybilDisobedience: it is obviously a legitimate concern but how is that any different than enron / aig / madoff. Bad people exist everywhere and bad people will use anything to make money. it is up to the individual to do the necessary research (in the case of religion it involves looking at church outreach & prayer, etc..) to make sure that things are on the up & up. God askes for your tithe not because he wants your money but because he wants you to trust him.

there is obviously alot more to this discussion than can be posted on the forum.

Also, pecan's post below about how good deeds DO NOT get you into heavan is right on the mark.

My boyfriend and I never miss it. We love the commercials and think it is genuinely funny, which means that it will probably be canceled soon if it hasn't already.

Jesus threw the moneychangers out of the temple specifically because they had made worship into a business.

@HiPwr: Not to mention Fred Phelps. Listen, I don't disagree that Scientology is abhorrable - their methods and aims are morally indefensible. But that's the fun of living in the USA: when you want to defend freedoms, you have to defend them for everybody, regardless of whether they're assholes. The rule doesn't extend to hate speech (or whackjobs killing abortion docs), of course, but unfortunately, Scientology has every right to exist.

Subliminal suggestion maybe?

what I mean when I say it's between you and God whether you tithe is that despite having entrance already, it is the duty of a Christian to support his/her church and help with the community. But if you don't, it doesn't rescind your salvation - but you do have to acknowledge that you did ignore your duty as a Christian. The way some people try to twist that to guilt people into tithing is wrong but it's the actions of man - God isn't doing it, it's people being selfish.

And believe it or not, the majority of churchgoers do NOT go to a megachurch. My parents' pastor drives a boring sedan and lives in a nice but modest home. And he's once of the kindest people I've ever encountered. And during all of the services I've attended he has never told anyone they had to give money. He would simply say the plate was being passed, that they would have a short prayer (in which he prayed for the sermon and never mentioned money) and left it at that. The church has only about 100 members and shares a small building with five other churches.

@Hooray4Zoidberg: he's been often quoted as saying "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wanted to make a million dollars, the best way to do it would be start his own religion"

I knew a pastor who could afford a Mustang (they're not expensive and he'd always wanted one) but wouldn't buy one because he thought he might offend some of the elderly parishioners. I never liked that he was under that pressure, but respected him for putting their feelings above his own.

@pecan 3.14159265: I like how reasonably you're responding to critics of religion (speaking as an atheist myself). But implying that God wants your money is exactly the shaming that other commenters are referring to. God doesn't ask for money - religious organizations do - and while sometimes they want it for legitimate community outreach or to better society as they see it, other commenters are pointing out quite accurately that this money seems often to do nothing more than pad the pockets of the preacher and his staff. Not saying it's always this way, but it is a legitimate concern.

I might have to watch the first 60 seconds of that every day (but no e-meters for me, thank you).

And, also, actions such as brainwashing and extortion are *not* protected by free speech. I'm not sure how Scientology still gets tax-exempt status, other than the fact they have a ton of money.

Newly recruited Scientologists are not supposed to see the higher level goals and tenets of Scientology, specifically because they need a lot of conditioning and 'buy-in,' both figuratively and literally, before they'll be receptive to such teachings.

And yeah, I don't know. At higher levels of clearness, you're supposed to be completely free of human frailties and ailments, just like their fat, bald, decrepit, and now dead leader, L. Ron Hubbard.

The reason it doesn't seem to make sense is that it doesn't make sense. They're just nasty, vile, stupid, and crazy.

Also: A lot of people believe that Mormonism is a cult too.

Planned Parenthood doesn't go out and force their services on people who don't want it. They don't sue, harass, hire thugs to go after people who criticize them. They don't threaten to kill the relatives of journalists who investigate them.

For that matter, I don't think the NRA goes out to street corners, recruits people and continuously makes them pay more and more money or have psychological mind games played on them.

Legitimate religions don't threaten the actual people of the IRS with lawsuits to gain non-profit status.

You can't tell the difference between an organization like Scientology, and legitimate associations of people in our society that seek to operate within the law, and for people's benefit?

The differences here are that I want to go back, without anyone doing something to entice me. I just feel good about going to church, even if I don't speak to anyone while I'm there. I like the message.

@kepler11: I guess the financial aspects of Scientology makes them more evil than the hate-speakers Louis Farrakhan, Jeremiah Wright, and Father Phleger.

How on earth does a religion propagate itself when nobody can do any of the things that are prerequisite?

Madoff vs. Scientology - who is worse?

Just stating that is the type of shaming I'm talking about. Why the hell would God be concerned about whether or not I can give him money? Oh it's very subtle, but it is very effective. People are literally guilted into giving money to the church. I've witnessed family members quite literally give away their life savings trying to buy a better seat in heaven.
And it bothers me that some preacher can be wearing $5k suits, driving a Mercedes, and living in an 18k sq ft mansion on tax-free money, and continuing to tell his "flock" once a week "These are trying times and God really needs your donations now". Assuming we all believe in this nonsense for just a moment, God doesn't need money. People do.

Scientology should not be singled out as evil, because that's assumoing that the rest are not. RELIGION is evil. And we, as a species, need to get beyond this archaic fairy tale mentality and grow up or we are all going to die for something with no more substance than a dream.

It is the biggest wide-open con game running in the world today. All of it. One is no better than the rest.

Because, ya know, some people think Planned Parenthood is much more evil.

See: [en.wikipedia.org]

Also: Mormon church requires 10% of your income.

@katstermonster: No, but they've been excommunicated for allowing their 8 year old daughter get an abortion, because if she didn't, she would have died. The father that raped her? Not excommunicated.

Oh, and they blame condoms for AIDS.

Sorry, the Catholic Church is even WORSE than Scientology because they have SO much control over SO many people.

@youbastid: The Catholic Church does not require the same blind obedience/monetary giving. This from someone who has been a lifelong Catholic (albeit a wary one at times).

Also: the Catholic Church does not yank people from psychiatric care and refuse to treat legitimate mental illnesses. I'll give you that the Church's views on contraceptives need some work, but no one has been excommunicated for being on The Pill or using a condom. Trust me.

Scientology, Rev.Moon, Jim Jones, Hitler,...what's the diff.?

Your exposure has been limited. Many legitimate churches ask for "offerings" in the form of money to sustain their work. I have never attended one (Protestant or Catholic) that *required* it, although I understand some of the fundamental/evangelical churches still practice tithing.

@colorisnteverything: I haven't watched the commercial yet, but I like the fact that you watch Better Off Ted too. And, yeah, their spoof commercials are a hoot.

@BZMedia: THANK YOU for that. There is a heck of a lot of pot and kettling going on here. To me Christianity is actually scarier because the brainwashing is deep rooted and widespread. At least my money doesn't say "In Xenu we trust".

This ad is cool and all, but i think this one takes the cake:
Scientology "anti-Racism" Ads

It's not just their 'beliefs' that people take issue with, but their actions.

As far as their beliefs, though, if you look at the tenets of most major religions, you can see the value and purpose of (most of) their messages, even if you take the stories themselves as metaphors.

Not so much with Scientology. It's not just fantastical, but it's usually either pointless or just plain evil. The goals of getting through the OT levels include things like gaining the ability to kill people just by looking at them.

And probably most illustrative is the fact that most major mainstream religions encourage people to learn more about their beliefs. Scientology threatens people who try.

@youbastid: I meant help as in terms of legitimacy. They haven't been able to convince people that they're a "real" organization.

wait.... what? Since when?

The religions I've had the unpleasant experience of running into (because they come knocking on my door) all expect money from you sooner or later. And you will be SHAMED and brow-beaten into giving it up. God needs money! He always needs more money! That McMansion the preacher is living in is expensive you know. (and he needs another Jag)

I live by a popular flea market called Trader's World near Dayton, OH. About a month ago I was scoping out mullets and skullets when I saw a big Scientology booth with a small line of people waiting to use the e-meter. I felt bad because most of them did not look terribly educated and I could see them being easily scammed.

No other religion in the world demands tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars to participate. Religion is free; Scientology is expensive.

I am also happy to see that weird old commercial with the awesome scientist. It's kind of funny what scientology does, it tricks you by showing you something that you want, and then switching it really fast with something you would never ever ever want. Go away scientology! No one wants your parasitic engrams or your programmable thetans or your judgmental SP name dropping.

Also, your study of cults?

I think if Churches had to pay taxes, like every other organization on earth, those in it for profit might find the pastures of legitimate business much greener. Fix the tax code and you'll fix the cults. World problems solved, you're welcome.

Why? Because Scientology is fundamentally evil. Yes, evil in most visceral connotation of the word -- they are a group of people that seeks to destroy our society from within. They take unsuspecting people, brainwash them, extort their money, and use tactics of litigation, harrassment, slander/libel, extortion, fear, to silence anyone who criticizes them. This is fundamentally evil, and we must recognize that if it were allowed to spread, it would be counter to everything that we cherish about our freedoms. They are a danger because of the scale and growth of their operation.

Scientology is not a religion -- it is a financial operation, a Ponzi scheme if you will, that seeks to change our world for the worse, in everything they do. At least the other recognized religions give you a choice about various things, and seek to contribute to society. I'll repeat it, Scientology seeks only to grow itself and control more people.

It is a little sad that people hard on their luck, in dire straits, have to reach out to Scientology, because they're so readily available on the street corner (and using deceptive practices too). We should offer people better/more productive ways to connect to others and feel like they are not alone.

And in the face of such a terrible organization, you must realize that they are the enemy of society. And take action to prevent such an organization from spreading. Our laws do not address something like this, but they should, because Scientology truly is the enemy of the public good.

The rest are no better than the Scientology nuts. They just have a tighter grip.

Would love to see what would happen if a handful of Scientology followers were put to debate with the same number of LaRouche followers.

@pecan 3.14159265: Yeah.. the more you learn about it.. the more freakish it becomes..

It gives me a giant case of the heebies.. and I'm sure they could throw in some jeebies if I paid a small nominal fee.

I don't think they could ever put out a commercial that is truly uncreepy, even if they left out their name.

I love how that second ad is a blatant grab at the 18-35-year old market. Just what we need, more young loonies.

@SeniorPonzologist_GitEmSteveDave: Not really.. they use the poor chumps as slave labor.
Seriously. Either that, or they make them take out huge loans from family or a 3rd mortgage..

[www.xenu.net]