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I'm sure this depends on the country, but can't you use 30 second clips relatively freely?
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@raleel: That is only the case under \"fair use\" laws, to provide an example of a song. Since this involves personal use, that law doesn't apply.
See my further post below if you read this without it. I'm not against your POV.
The article left out that one already pays a royalty to download the ringtone. The copyright act does reserve public performance rights for the copyright holder but it seems in this case that the claim is a bit disingenuous.
If the copyright holder would like to make more money off the licensing (which seems ridiculous considering ringtones are usually more expensive than downloading the entire song) they should negotiate a better licensing agreement rather then taking this course.
@Reeve: ASCAP is not the copyright holder, it's a licensing agency for public performance rights. They currently receive nothing from ringtones. Public performance rights (radio play, covers by bands in clubs, muzak, etc.) are a separate process. But I do think it's over the top to claim a ringing phone is a public performance.
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At some point all this nonsense is gonna explode in the faces of these organizations like the RIAA and ASCAP when people tire of it to the point that we all just stop completely.
It's already had a hugely negative effect on my habits. I used to buy CDs (new) by the box load. I liked music, and wasn't worried about the music gestapo coming to take me away. But for a few years now, I haven't bought a single CD. I'm turned off by the whole thing. I don't listen to the radio, I don't download, I don't buy. I simply do with what I have already, or do without. I'm so disgusted by the greed and stupidity of these entities that I have completely turned my back on them. All the DRM, lawsuits, whining about royalties, confiscating computers, threats to the public, etc. has taken all the enjoyment out of music and movies. The idea that \"if you're a paying customer, it doesn't affect you\" is bullshit. It does and it has.
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@BZMedia:
I stopped about 5 years ago, as well, except for buying direct from non-RIAA artists.
What's even better is, between 1995 and 2000, I bought ONE CD. After 2000, I bought dozens. I started buying music again because of Napster. (Radio FAILED me.)
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@BZMedia: Nicely said. I have money and was more than willing to buy music as well, but I just can't support groups that do things like this.
Did Bank of America acquire ASCAP recently?
Someone please tell me if they know, but does a radio station have to pay for each song when it does it's own ad, and plays clips from songs they play? I mean, unless the ringtone is the entire song, I would consider it an advertisement for the band. I mean, they are getting played in public, sometimes among a hundred people. How about we sue THEM for advertising fees?
@BZMedia: Yes they do. They pay ASCAP a lump sum. I believe it's quarterly. Clubs have to as well.
@600Followers_GitEmSteveDave: It's usually not broken down by what they play and for how long, but rather a licensing fee to ASCAP for the right to replay the music at their discretion.
Stupidity at it's best.I have watched businesses in the last few years ,every time that sales go down they raise prices,losing more customers, I believe that greed is at the heart of the problem. Wal-mart raises some prices and lowers others bringing in more customers.(not a fan-But)that these other businesses lose.. big Business have a lot of lessons to learn to be more competitive in the market place of today.. The old days of monopoly in the market place is over competitiveness is here to stay....
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Were things like this back when Cassettes and tape players the dominant form of music entertainment? I remember recording music from the radio for my own personal enjoyment and never once did I fear that I would be sued for it. I can remember a time when the only way an unknown artist was able to get his music out was through bootleg copies (cough::metallica::cough). Nowadays, the bootleg is now P2P, and if I download a song, and its good enough, then I buy the song or album from iTunes... but this... this is just getting ridiculous. Now I only buy video game soundtracks. Thats as good as its getting from me.
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@EricLecarde: It's pretty much always been this way - when records started becoming popular, it was decried as the death of sheet music...
yeah.
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@EricLecarde: When cassettes and CD's were introduced, the RIAA tried to ban them from the public as well on similar arguments they use today. The problem with MP3's and P2P is the volume of music that you can trade.
Aaah Video game music. I Love the Xenogears, Xenosaga and Final Fantasy music. It's amazing.
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Go to www.streamingsoundtracks.com. All soundtracks and they play lots of video game music. :)
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@Mknzybsofh: An excellent artichle which I believe covers the whole argument.
Now, if ASCAP would go off and quietly DIAF. I would probably pay to see that public performance.
Folks, ASCAP is not interested in protecting the Artists (the A in ASCAP)...they're in it for themselves (and will throw the Artists a bone now and then to keep up appearances).
Fuck the RIAA and MPAA. Greedy mofos.
DROP YOUR PRICES and INCREASE QUALITY. REMOVE DRM. This will dramatically increase sales.
I mean when you have pricks like Sony installing ROOTKITS on people's PC's so they can listen to an audio cd......
Let's give a big, collective \"Fuck you\" to copyright whores like the RIAA and ASCAP: obey the copyright laws as they used to be written.
The length of copyright law was once fifty years, so let's treat it that way now. Take any song made before 1959, convert it to MP3 or make a ringtone of it and give it away, then tell the bastards (anonymously, of course) that we're doing it.
Companies who want to gouge consumers out of money should have their greed shoved back in their faces.
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@P_Smith: Actually, it used to be 14 years. The Intent of copyright, as enshrined in the constitution, is to promote the progress of Science and the Useful Arts. It's NOT to provide a hereditary income for a creator, or a long-term asset for a company.
Andrew Norton
Head, Pirate Party International
Former Chairman, Pirate Party US
@ktetch: You might be right, but even so, fifty years is sufficient. It would protect an artist for his lifetime.
The problem lies in corporations like Disney which profited from public domain works but now don't want their own to fall into the public domain. \"Steamboat Willie\" should have been public domain 38 years ago. Now they lobby governments (read: bribe politicians) to change laws for their own benefit.
Like I said the first time, let's act within the laws as they used to be written (but without profiting from doing so) as a form of peaceful protest.
Next time I start to hum the chorus from my favorite tune, I'll be sure to send a few cents to ASCAP for the \"public performance\" of the song ...
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It continually amazes me how the entertainment industry finds new and exciting ways to... well... kill themselves.
Given how in-their-pockets some of the legislators are, I envision the inevitable outcome to be an entrenched fear of playing or listening to, even inadvertently, any copyrighted music, because then you must toil in the mines for 20 years.
YOU HEARD THAT. IT'S ON FOUR DIFFERENT VIDEOS. YOU ARE COMING WITH US CITIZEN.
yeah F that. One more reason not to pay for ringtones either. I'll make my own and if i want music in the ringtone i'll pirate that, too.
I think you guys have some mis-directed anger towards ASCAP, this company makes sure that the publishers and performers get their royalties on their works. Now the production companies on the other hand, they are what keep the CD prices high. If it weren't for ASCAP film composers and the like would make next to nothing.
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I own a bar where I have to pay ASCAP & BMI collectively almost $1,000 a year for having live bands on Saturdays. I have them maybe 30 times a year. Almost half do original music, but I still have to pay. Had to do away with Karaoke because my fees would have more than doubled. The guy who provides the juke box has to pay a nickle for every song played (roughly 10% of his income.
Personally I think they're blood suckers.
@TechnoDestructo: It doesn't matter if you play only original music, if you are a member of ASCAP or BMI you still collect royalties for a public performance, as long as your music is registered and you have proof of the performance.
Wouldn't \"public performance\" mean that you are playing said music FOR another person? My ringtone isn't giving a public performance, it is giving me a private performance.
When will they start going after us when we get a song stuck in your head? I've had Love Train by The O'Jays stuck in my head for about 3 days now. I'm surprised I didn't get a notice from anybody claiming I owe them money.
The ASCAP has already tried to follow in the footsteps of the RIAA.
Because home transcription is ruining the sheet music industry. Because this is 1920.
I buy CDs, rip them and do whatever the hell I want with them. Or I pay to download a song and do whatever. The point is, I paid already.
I guess soon skaters will have to pay when we perform a program using music. We won't be able to cut music to our time specifications and then they'll fee us to death every time we do it, even if it's only for a little recital at a stupid rink in the middle of nowhere. Even if only twelve people ever see the performance.
Imagine the fees for competing the program!
So I guess we won't be able to skate to music; we'll just have to go out there and perform elements and the audience will just have to imagine it. :P
Jerks!
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So now we pay a \"piracy tax\" on blank media, we get sued for downloads anyway (nevermind if they can actually prove you did it, or cite anything like reasonable damages), and pretty soon the only way to be safe from accidentally attending a public performance will be to wear earplugs everywhere and never make a phone call?
It's like my boy (a musician) put it so brilliantly the other day: They want to have their cake and eat it too, and also they want your cake.
The end-game for ASCAP is very simple here. AT&T will settle, and simply agree to bill end users for a \"ringtone royalty\" which will pass-through directly to ASCAP. AT&T pays nothing, and the consumer gets bilked, without ASCAP having to pursue individuals for royalty payments.
In the UK the licensing authority has already sued several hairdressers and restaurants for playing the radio/music to their customers.
Soon, it will be against copyright to play your car radio with the windows down, or with more then 1 person in the car.
If these people had their way, you'd pay $50 per track, that you could listen to twice (within 24 hours). If your music player detected other ears, it'd auto bill you for a performance license (couple grand).
@shockwaver: I recall that a garage was sued a while ago because the mechanics listened to a radio while they worked and it could be heard in the customer lobby.
@shockwaver: ASCAP does the same thing to businesses in the U.S. The most ridiculous thing about restaurants and other businesses having to pay ASCAP just to play a radio is that the radio station is already paying ASCAP!