var json_comments = new Array("

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July 6, 2009 6:47 PM

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Ohhh HDVD, how I mourn your death.

3 replies

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July 6, 2009 8:29 PM

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@andystep12: God why. HD-DVD was a half-a$$ attempt to keep control firmly in Toshiba's court via patent control. BD was an attempt by the CE manufacturers to end that veritable monopoly. You actually pine for a patent war monopolist?

Drinking the kool-aid a little much, aren't you.

That's right folks, the reason for HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray was a patent war. HD-DVD was a half-a$$ implementation designed to get to market first and ensure Toshiba could maintain it's stranglehold (and profits) over the optical disc market.

BD was a half-a$$ implementation to get more longevity, but also divide up power in the BDA so that there would be no repeat of the DVD Forum (which Toshiba ruled pretty mercilessly) that CE's were desperate to annihilate.

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nybiker

July 6, 2009 8:38 PM

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@Inglix_the_Mad: I'll admit it, I do not know what CE & BD & BDA refer to. Please clarify. Thank you.

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rwakelan

July 6, 2009 6:54 PM

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@andystep12: Well, to be fair, the HD DVDs I got from Netflix were often unplayable, but that was due to the horrible scratching on them rather than cracking in transit.

","

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ludwigk

July 6, 2009 6:50 PM

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Well, if they *ARE* breaking in prodigious amounts, that does make them 'substantially more expensive', now doesn't it? Good ol' PR to the rescue!

4 replies

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Leksi Wit

July 6, 2009 7:21 PM

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@ludwigk: I love Netflix, so I switched to a blu-ray account when we bought our new Samsung LCD and blu-ray player. I have noticed cracked discs on new releases that JUST came out. This has happened twice now since I switched my account over in May.

I dislike my mailman -- I've had to call the post office twice to complain about him lodging mail in so hard that I need a box opener to get it out of my mailbox. Also, he misdelivers mail frequently. I've had angry neighbors bring me my mail and I've had to deliver neighbor's mail to them. The point being, I kind of just blamed the cracks on the mailman, but perhaps if enough people are experiencing this, it's an issue with the envelope being too flimsy for blu-ray discs? Or maybe it's more along the lines of bad postal service employees who don't give a damn when handling your mail? Any thoughts?

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July 6, 2009 11:32 PM

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@Leksi Wit: if it's primarily new discs that are cracking, it implies it's some sort of quality control issue for the manufacturer.

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cluberti

July 7, 2009 3:01 AM

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@Megalomania: But all of them? I'm not sure where BR-Discs are made, but I have to imagine it's not likely they're all from the same place. However, about 50% of my BR-Disc rentals from Netflix are cracked regularly (some months, more than 50%), so either it's a defect in the BR-Disc design itself, or it's the way the Postal Service (or, to be fair, Netflix employees) are handling these.

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ludwigk

July 6, 2009 9:19 PM

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@Leksi Wit: My completely random guess would be that it is either an issue of the kind of plastic they use, or the thickness of the plastic in bluray discs that causes the problem. A thicker plastic might not survive automated sorting as well, and a more rigid plastic might crack from small amounts of flexing that might occur during shipping.

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xguile

July 6, 2009 8:08 PM

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I like my video like I like my pee--streaming!

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July 6, 2009 8:29 PM

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@xguile: small tv's make that workable

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Taliskan

July 6, 2009 6:50 PM

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It seems that 1 out of every 3 or 4 Blu-ray movies I get from Netflix are damaged. And here I thought it was just me. It's usually that the outside of the disc has a more a nick in it than a scratch. I am not sure if I feel better that I am not alone with this issue, though...

5 replies

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h3llc4t, breaker of office dress codes

July 6, 2009 10:42 PM

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@Taliskan: I think it might be partly due to the distribution center. I don't know. My boyfriend and I have separate Netflix accounts and in almost 3 years I think we've gotten 1 damaged disc between us.

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Taliskan

July 7, 2009 1:23 PM

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@h3llc4t: Out of the years of Netflix, I think I only had to complain about 1 damaged DVD. Blu-ray seems to be in a league of it's own with problems.

Thanks all for the information!

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normyk

July 6, 2009 7:20 PM

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I've got a Netflix distribution center here in town @Taliskan: Do you know which netflix distribution center is sending most of your discs and if so which one is it and how far away is it. I'm curious whether it's a local dist center issue, a local post office issue, or what.

My dist center is more or less in town so I get my discs next day and undamaged for the most part. I've had a couple of DVDs I've had to send back (some unreadable, some with crack from edge or center), but not BRDs and I'm wondering if it's because I have a good dist center or post office handling things. I've seen discussions of this and it seems to be that some people will say they get 50% damaged BRDs and some will say they've never had any so I've got to assume that there is some variable that can be found to explain things.

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Taliskan

July 7, 2009 1:22 PM

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@normyk: If I recall one of the dist centers in located right downtown from where I live. When I called Netflix on the issue, I got the \"it happens\" speech. Not that I necessarily mind, since they cross ship the replacement as you send it out, but it is annoying nonetheless.

Generally as these things go, I just blame my own damn luck for these things.

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Leksi Wit

July 6, 2009 7:25 PM

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@normyk: There's a distribution center less than 50 miles from me in state, just a couple towns away. I haven't noticed too many cracks or scratches, but it is weird how twice now, a new blu-ray release that JUST came out, was cracked (not just scratched).

I'm curious as to whether they need to redesign the blu-ray envelope (to at least look different from the DVD one), or if mail carriers need to handle Netflix mail better. Just think how much business Netflix brings the US Postal service -- you'd think they could get special treatment just for that alone!

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July 6, 2009 8:19 PM

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@Leksi Wit: I've never gotten a busted disc yet in over a year, about 2-5 movies per month. That being said, it is possible.

As for the postal service, they hate Netflix. The mailers aren't liked by sorting machines...

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GMFish

July 6, 2009 6:51 PM

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I've noticed a high number of Blu-ray discs with cracks starting in the middle heading out to the edge like spokes. As if someone pushed the disc down on a spindle. Some of these were even new releases, so it's certainly a serious problem as the discs seem very fragile.

And this problem is not just Netflix's, but Sony's. If Blu-ray discs get a reputation for poor quality, the tech is probably dead in the water as far as consumers are concerned.

7 replies

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July 7, 2009 9:01 PM

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The tech is already dead in the water. There is not a big enough difference between DVD and Blu-Ray to justify the purchase like there was between VHS and DVD.

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July 6, 2009 10:07 PM

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@GMFish: @GMFish:

I understand, I'm just trying to defend Sony. I recognize that BD and DVD are different materials, I just doubt Sony had USPS in mind when developing their discs.

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normyk

July 6, 2009 7:39 PM

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@GMFish: I wonder how Netflix gets their movies. Do they come in retail boxes with discs in them (my assumption) or in big stacks? If they do come in boxes and it's somebody's job to sit there and pop discs from boxes I can see this causing a lot of center cracks, especially with BRD since it's (in theory) easier to crack. I've had a number of discs where I thought for sure it was going to break before I could get it off the stupid middle post. It would certainly explain how it would happen on a new release. If somebody is popping hundreds of discs one after another from some of these recalcitrant cases I'd bet on a solid crack rate.

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Rey

July 6, 2009 9:47 PM

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@normyk: Don't worry. Nobody is sitting down in a room removing discs from packages in order to get them ready for Netflix consumers. The discs are assembled spindled for rental-retailers.

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Con Seannery

July 6, 2009 7:36 PM

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@GMFish: Isn't it already dead due to the high cost?

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July 6, 2009 6:55 PM

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The Netflix packaging is pretty crappy, and I doubt Sony would say that they designed their disks to be put in a shitty envelope and passed through the nation's postal service.

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GMFish

July 6, 2009 6:57 PM

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@kraftmayo: \"The Netflix packaging is pretty crappy...\"

That may be true, but I've been a subscriber for several years and I've only had this problem with Blu-rays.

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Gilbert Tang, Jr.

July 6, 2009 6:56 PM

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Looking at our history, we have received just over 100 Blu-rays from Netflix and have had zero cracking problems.

The discs are not as fragile as one would think. In fact, by spec they're supposed to be stronger than conventional DVDs (though not all are created equal). Then again, that might not mean anything.

We have, however, received two scratched discs and sometimes haven't received any discs at all.

3 replies

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LordSkippy

July 7, 2009 1:53 PM

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@Gilbert: We've had mostly Blu-rays shipped to us this year, and so far we've only had one unplayable disc. /Knock-on-wood. Maybe we've just been lucky. We're also in a city with a shipping center, so maybe shorter transit time helps.

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July 6, 2009 7:29 PM

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@Gilbert: Applekid and Travishamokery gave a great explanation about it up the thread.

Basically, they are harder and more scratch resistant, but do not react very well to tensile foces. The DVD being more flexible would just bend slightly and regain shape, but the blu ray, being harder, would crack, instead of yielding.

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July 6, 2009 7:03 PM

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@Gilbert: the coating put on BDs only add protection from scratches. the coating has never been touted for structural protection. Though it seems to be causing problems for the format.

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Jaxcmpltlkofsrprz

July 6, 2009 6:59 PM

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I've been a happy Netflix customer for over 4 or so years. When I got my PS3 I instantly changed my status to blu-ray. Not once have I received a cracked or unplayable disc. They are not fragile nor are they structurally inferior to standard dvds.

4 replies

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madog

July 6, 2009 10:14 PM

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@Jaxcmpltlkofsrprz: I've never had a hard drive crash, so obviously they never go bad.............................................................................

THE END!

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DefineStatutory

July 6, 2009 8:17 PM

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@Jaxcmpltlkofsrprz:

Well, that settles it folks...stop discussing it, and cancel any and all research.

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July 6, 2009 7:18 PM

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@Jaxcmpltlkofsrprz:

They are not fragile nor are they structurally inferior to standard dvds.

I've gone round and round on AVS with people saying the same thing. I had 7 of 8 cracked Blu-rays with Netflix before I canceled that part of the service. I have never, ever received a cracked DVD. I don't give a rat's ass what the Blu-ray specifications are, they are obviously more prone to damage than DVDs.

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greyseal

July 7, 2009 1:22 PM

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@Jaxcmpltlkofsrprz: Sorry for all the angry posts, Jax. Your comment is as valid as these replies. Apparently, if their discs are all broken, it's because Blu Rays are poorly made. But if yours aren't, it's because you're wrong. Apparently, their sample sizes and analytic methods are substantially more impressive than yours.

Not taking sides on the matter -- but nobody here is in a position to make an accurate statement, rather than just sharing their personal experience, and leaping to a conclusion.

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July 6, 2009 7:00 PM

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I get bluray's every time and this has never happened to me in the 60-70 blu-rays ive rented.

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Saboth

July 6, 2009 7:00 PM

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I have yet to get a cracked blu ray that is unplayable, in the past 8-9 months of getting probably 2 blu rays per week.

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KingPsyz

July 6, 2009 7:01 PM

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@andystep12:
Friends
andystep12 has no friends.

And this is why...

Seriously how would HDDVD be better for Shipping than BLU RAY?

Why do people pine for HDDVD so? It was at best stepping stone tech and they were hoping and counting on BD not being available far later than it ended up being released.

6 replies

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July 7, 2009 8:56 PM

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@KingPsyz here for HappyFunKingPsyz©:

Blu-Ray is a stepping stone tech in the opinion of most people. The difference between Blu-Ray and DVD is not the same as VHS to DVD. Until there is a big enough difference between DVD and the next generation disc technology, I doubt we'll see mass adoption.

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July 6, 2009 10:40 PM

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@KingPsyz here for HappyFunKingPsyz©:
\"andystep12 has no friends.\" = Ad hominem fallacy. Very reasonable.

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July 6, 2009 10:10 PM

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@KingPsyz here for HappyFunKingPsyz©:
Look to the reply below indicating the different flexibility of the protective coating. Plus, why be so angry over such a simply comment.

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Traveshamockery

July 6, 2009 7:09 PM

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@KingPsyz here for HappyFunKingPsyz©: Blu-ray has a hard covering that resists scratches, but also makes the discs less flexible. Since regular DVDs (and HD DVDs) are relatively flexible, they make it through the post office sorting machines intact. Blu-ray discs are more firm, and are therefore easier to break.

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July 6, 2009 7:26 PM

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@Travishamockery: @Applekid: You both win my approval points for giving a scientific reply to a rant-ish comment. Hats off.

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Applekid

July 6, 2009 7:10 PM

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@Travishamockery: You win the reply race. :)

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July 6, 2009 8:20 PM

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@Applekid: But you win the geek contest! I didn't know the laser deal...wowee!

Kudos to both of you guys for responding to \"this guy has no friends\" with geekage.

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Unsolicited Advice

July 6, 2009 7:01 PM

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Never happened to me. But conspiracy theories are fun!

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clickertrainer

July 6, 2009 7:03 PM

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About 5 years ago, Netflix sent me at least eight X-Files DVDs (regular ones, obviously) that were cracked. We had a great time coming up with conspiracy theories about THAT.

2 replies

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July 6, 2009 8:54 PM

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@clickertrainer: They just kept re-sending you the same disk. Mystery solved.

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clickertrainer

July 6, 2009 9:19 PM

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@babyruthless: Nope, 'cause the next broken one came the same day the previous broken one got mailed back. You don't think we thought of that?!

Oh, wait, I GET IT, you are saying the USPS was running the conspiracy.....good thinking!

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frank64

July 6, 2009 7:04 PM

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Blu-Rays from what I have read crack more and some post offices don't treat them right, so the problem depends on YOUR post office sorting center. I don't think it was a major reason for the price increase which was mostly that the disk themselves cost more.

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cranke

July 6, 2009 7:06 PM

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I've never received a damaged BD from netflix. However, I've decided to limit my BD rentals to only those movies with superior visual graphics (blockbusters), not just any ol' show. BD takes way too much room on my HD if you get my drift. A high quality upconvertor DVD player makes standard DVD almost as good as BD at a fraction of the bandwidth on my 67\" 1080 HDTV.

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chris_d

July 6, 2009 7:07 PM

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I think they should have been made with a protective case, like the minidisc was.
[www.minidisc.org]
That was not well-received because it is \"too expensive\" to manufacture. But I think the real issue is when something like this is damaged, the content owner gets to sell the same thing over again. With a protective case that wouldn't happen nearly as often.

6 replies

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July 6, 2009 11:55 PM

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@chris_d: The original spec for Blu-Ray actually included a caddy, much like MiniDiscs. The addition of the hard-coating supposedly obviated the need for the caddy.

XDCAM, which is the Pro version of Blu-Ray, uses rewritable discs in plastic caddies.

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Hate_Brian_Club_I'mNotOnlyThePresidentI'mAClient

July 6, 2009 7:55 PM

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@chris_d:
They are made with a protective case, it's just poorly designed and not sent out by Netflix because of the cost of shipping them.

I like these, similar to the MD: [jewelboxing.com] but still, the best solution is probably a cardboard sleeve.

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shepd

July 6, 2009 7:53 PM

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You'd need a dummy adapter for HD-DVDs, DVDs and CDs then, assuming the device accepts them all (some do).

And then people would moan about what a pain in the ass all these caddies are.

The caddy thing was tried a long time ago with CD-ROMs. It didn't catch on for a reason... :)

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Applekid

July 6, 2009 7:15 PM

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@chris_d: The nice part about your comment is that you (possibly unknowingly) show the paradox between you having a physical copy of a movie and instead owning the license to view said movie in your home.

The MPAA likes to say that it's only a license to view a movie and that by having a physical copy you're not entitled to the right to view it on other formats or devices. Meanwhile, if you break the carrier media, no one will send you a free replacement, which you should be entitled to if you really only purchased a license to view.

In the words of Jack Valenti: \"Who needs a backup? If you need a backup copy of a DVD just buy another copy.\"

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Cant_stop_the_rock

July 6, 2009 8:00 PM

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In fact if you bother to contact the movie's distributor, they will replace the disc for you if you send in the broken disc and pay for return shipping and handling. With Disney I believe it's about $6 to get a disc replaced. It's not free, but it's also not a money-maker for the company.

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shepd

July 6, 2009 11:35 PM

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@Cant_stop_the_rock:

Making $6 to replace a $0.10 DVD without paying license fees isn't a money maker?

If you'd have said $1, you might be right, because there surely is some overhead. But considering I can buy out of copyright movies at Walmart for $5 (and that's the highest price they ever are) $6 is definitely a profit.

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Cant_stop_the_rock

July 7, 2009 12:25 AM

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@shepd:
If you've ever worked in an office, you'd know that $6 buys you absolutely nothing. The cost of dealing with unusable discs goes down as the quantity of unusable discs goes up. Film distributors likely deal with a very small quantity of replacement requests per day. The cost of the disc is minimal, but paying the guy who finds the replacement disc and ships it out costs money.

$5 for an out of copyright movie? Target sells that stuff for $1. And they can do that, because the costs are so low. But if you're comparing that to shipping a replacement disc for a movie, you need to google \"economy of scale\" and do some reading. If they're making any money off those $6 replacement discs, it'd be barely enough to pay for the office Christmas party.

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shepd

July 7, 2009 1:22 AM

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@Cant_stop_the_rock:

I do work in an office and $6 buys plenty of things. I've also worked in industrial environments. You'd probably have a hard time naming places I haven't worked at. In fact, I've owned my own business for several years and had my own employees. So come off it.

Now, let's pretend you actually need to hire someone fulltime to handle disc replacements. At $12/hr we're talking $40k cost to Disney for this person ($25k salary, $15k incidentals, which is INCREDIBLY high). We'll assume this person spends 2 days a week responding to mail delivered to them, 2 days a week ensuring supplies are stocked, and another day each week on book-keeping and on dropping off the DVDs to whatever company mails them out.

Now, these people are mailing the cost of return shipping as well (supposedly). So we'll leave that out of the equation. We'll assume Disney provides the boxes and that Disney pays $0.25 each for them. The DVDs shouldn't cost Disney more than $0.10 each. Let's assume a (generous) 5 minutes to fill out an order. So, in a given week, that's about 170 DVDs shipped assuming you only get about 7 hours x 2 days of actual mailing work out of the help.

170 x 50 = 8500 DVDs a year, costing about $3,000 in supplies.

$43,000 / 8500 = $5 a DVD.

And I have been so extremely generous right here that it's not even funny. In fact, if any business was *this* sloppily run, they'd cease to exist extremely quickly. A tightly run ship with some automation could easily reduce this cost to ~$2 a DVD, including shipping.

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Cant_stop_the_rock

July 7, 2009 3:57 AM

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@shepd:
So your intention was to prove me wrong by showing that a major movie publisher would make a profit of no less than $8500/year by shipping out replacement discs for damaged movies? $8500/year? You think any company that distributes DVDs care about $8500 per year?

Go back to my first post in this tangent. AppleKid things that publishers prefer not to use protective cases for media because they want to make money off people buying replacement discs. I disagreed, because publishers don't make meaningful profits off sending people replacement discs. You just showed that publishers don't make meaningful profits off replacement discs. You've proven my point. I thank you for that.

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Traveshamockery

July 6, 2009 7:11 PM

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@chris_d: I love MinDisc's plastic case. What a great idea.

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willdude

July 6, 2009 7:08 PM

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Never had a problem with cracked Blu-Rays from Netflix, and I get a fair amount. A few times, scratches or smudges have made them skip, but every time but once that was resolved by giving it a vigorous wiping with a bit of tissue.

Why don't they just ship BRs in a sturdy plastic case that's also recyclable?

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Applekid

July 6, 2009 7:09 PM

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@KingPsyz here for HappyFunKingPsyz©: It's physics. Blu-Ray uses a laser with a shorter wavelength than HDVD. This necessitates the data layer being closer to the surface. Due to this fragility, the original BR development discs pointed to the final product having a casing around it so it could have better resistance to scratches and handling. Then someone developed a different hard polycarbonate coating to protect the surface without a casing. Being harder, stresses on the disc similar to what would happen on a regular DVD that would just get bent might manifest themselves as cracks on BR.

2 replies

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July 7, 2009 12:07 PM

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@Applekid: It would seem that the BDA could remedy this themselves, by using a different polycarbonate for the disc itself, rather than using the same material that's used in DVDs, since the hard coating resists bending.

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Con Seannery

July 6, 2009 7:33 PM

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@Applekid: I believe I at one time revoked your heart for some unremembered infraction of my \"This guy deserves a star\" code. You just earned it back. Travishamockery got him one, too.

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Cant_stop_the_rock

July 6, 2009 7:09 PM

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\"We wonder if that price increase wasn't also a way for Netflix to avoid an expensive envelope redesign, and pass the cost of frequent disc replacement over to the consumers who rent Blu-ray in the first place.\"

That's because you look at everything from the perspective that companies hate their customers. We KNOW that Blu-Ray discs are more expensive than DVDs, so it is not unreasonable to expect the small subset of customers who want them to cover that additional cost.

Regarding your theory though, I think you need to take the tinfoil hat off. Discs are incredibly inexpensive to press, and Netflix doesn't have to pay the full cost of the movie to get a new copy when one is damaged. I suspect that the price Netflix pays for replacement discs is much closer to the cost of pressing the disc than it is to the cost of the movie. Which means a disc would have to break a dozen times or so before the cost of replacing it equals the cost difference between Blu-Ray and DVD.

4 replies

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xkevin

July 6, 2009 10:39 PM

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@Cant_stop_the_rock:The replacement cost of the disk is only low because they have revenue sharing agreements with some of the studios. They're still paying out either way...

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Cant_stop_the_rock

July 7, 2009 12:27 AM

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What's your point? The amount they're paying for the replacement discs is very low, right? So the marginal cost of Blu-Ray vs DVD is more than the supposed extra cost of replacing the broken discs, right?

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July 6, 2009 8:37 PM

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@Cant_stop_the_rock: I agree. Just because a company \"passes on the cost\" to the consumer doesn't mean that they're evil.

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Cant_stop_the_rock

July 6, 2009 7:10 PM

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@Cant_stop_the_rock:

Also, add me to the list of Blu-Ray customers who have never received a cracked disc from Netflix.

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Traveshamockery

July 6, 2009 7:11 PM

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Blu-ray has a hard covering that resists scratches, but also makes the discs less flexible. Since regular DVDs (and HD DVDs) are relatively bendable, they make it through the post office sorting machines intact.

In short, Blu-ray discs are more rigid, and are therefore easier to crack or break.

1 replies

$\"user-pic\"$

July 6, 2009 10:51 PM

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@Travishamockery:

I'll take more rigidity over tons of easy scratching.

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Etoiles

July 6, 2009 7:11 PM

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We just had our first completely unplayable Blu-Ray disc from Netflix last week.

My fiancé and I between us have at least 6 years (some overlapping, in different households) of Netflix history, and he's never had a damaged DVD arrive before. I had one, or rather my roommate did, in 2004, when a disc arrived literally snapped in half.

We've gone through a bunch of blu-ray discs from Netflix in the last 10-12 months and so far only the one problem... I hope it stays as only one problem.

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$\"user-pic\"$

July 6, 2009 7:16 PM

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If this is a problem (and it seems it at least needs looking into), then my concern would be the cost differential to the consumer. They get billed the same amount each month, but the damaged DVDs mean they get less movies per dollar spent. Not a big deal for a casual user, but if you watch a lot of Blu-Rays...

2 replies

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July 6, 2009 8:59 PM

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@mrbenning: I had to stop using Netflix in college because too many of them (standard DVD's, of course) were not quite making it all the way to my mailbox. While Netflix never gave me any hassle about the number of DVD's I claimed as undelivered, it did approximately double the cost of Netflix, which made it not cost effective. Now that I have a house, and far fewer theiving classmates, however, I use them again.

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July 6, 2009 9:13 PM

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@babyruthless: A buddy of mine works at a college and mentioned that three DVDs he'd sent out through campus mail never made it back to Netflix. He personally drops them at the post office now.

I've noticed a fair number of my Netflix DVDs (among other mail) arrive half-opened, as if someone's peeking at the contents. I live in an apartment, though, so I hope this isn't an issue when I finally move into a house.

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Anonymous

July 6, 2009 7:16 PM

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I haven't noticed cracks (never occurred to me to look for any), but I have noticed that many of the Blu-Rays that I've received recently, while unscratched, have unplayable sections of video which cause my player (Samsung BDP1600) to freeze. I wasn't sure if it's the player or the discs, but none of the movies I've purchased have given me grief.

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July 6, 2009 7:17 PM

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I've been getting BR's since January and haven't had a problem yet. As an aside, for a company that sends millions of cheap plastic discs through the clunky mail system everyday, Netflix has a pretty low failure ratio of their discs. I used to have more problems renting discs from the store.

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ddmeightball

July 6, 2009 7:23 PM

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Just started Blu Ray on my Netflix subscription. Hope this isnt a problem that I encounter.

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July 6, 2009 7:32 PM

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When Netflix raised the price for people who rent blu-rays I removed blu-ray from my account. A few weeks later I called to complain about the price hike and I wasnt happy with the answers i received so I voted with my $$ and I canceled my Netflix account for 2 months.

I have recently restarted it but I lowered it from 4 disks at a time down to 1 disk at a time. Mostly I just use it for instant view on Xbox Live.

When I did have blu-ray I received 2 disks in a span of 3 weeks that were broken. One of them was snapped in half. The other was really wierd. The data layers of the disk were seperated from the hardcoat and label side. I didnt even bother trying to play it because an unbalanced disk can kill a bd/dvd-rom realy quickly.

I wouldnt be surprised if the price hike was because of broken disk but honestly either way its BS. The movies pay for themselves really damn quick so Netflix should have taken the slight drop in profits in favor of its customers. They lost my money for a while and like I said I'm back but im paying over $20 less per month so they are losing that too...all because of a $1 price hike.

5 replies

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Saboth

July 6, 2009 9:54 PM

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I just lowered mine from 3 at a time to 2 at a time. Sucks to get less movies, but I'm getting REALLY tired of every one of my bills going up 2-10% in the past year, and pay increases are \"frozen\" due to \"the economy\".

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July 6, 2009 9:32 PM

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@frank64: I'm also surprised nobody's mentioned the added value of the Watch Instantly feature which didn't increase the monthly cost noticeably. I've easily doubled my Netflix use without doubling my subscription fee. I wonder if parad0x360 has considered this in how he values the product?

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Mary

July 6, 2009 8:22 PM

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@parad0x360: So you're saying that no business that you patronize should be doing their best to stay in business?

I personally WANT the businesses I like to make a profit and do well. If it costs them $1 more per month to give me the services that I've been asking for and receiving then so be it.

But then, people who raise a stink about a $1 price increase for an increase in services are usually not the type that would be happy with anything a business does.

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July 6, 2009 8:40 PM

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@Meiran: I find it absolutely astounding that any sane customer would raise a fuss about paying extra for a more expensive product that breaks more often and thus has to be replaced more often. A lot of \"passing on the cost\" that companies do is shady and unjustified. But in this case? Wow, I can't even begin to understand the privilege these people must have grown up with to assert their sense of entitlement and go on and on with their bourgeois bitching and moaning

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frank64

July 6, 2009 8:53 PM

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@EinhornIsAMan!: And all against Netflix. I have never seen the same questions about the costs of BR equipment or the outright costs of purchasing Blu-Ray disks from places such as Best Buy or Amazon.

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frank64

July 6, 2009 8:16 PM

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@parad0x360: \"The movies pay for themselves really damn quick so Netflix should have taken the slight drop in profits in favor of its customers.\"

I don't think the drop in profits was slight, and asking them to take a drop is profits in favor of their customers is a kind of crazy thing to ask. As BR uses increase they would have to keep taking a bigger \"drop in profits\" and this would continue hitting the bottom line. So they would have had to either keep on losing money or raise the price sometime. So if you have to raise a price sometime for a premium product why wait and lose money now, just to piss of more customers later? I think Netflix made a mistake when they didn't charge extra right away. They made BR customer expect not to pay extra for something they normally did see a value in as evidenced by them spending extra on BR equipment knowing that in general BR's cost more.

The real issue is value if you don't think you are getting $3-$4 worth of extra value in BR you shouldn't pay for it. But Netflix extra charge seems in line with what it cost in extra overhead, damage, and costs.

Not passing on the costs also allow the studios to continue to charge extra for it and not have the customers pay extra, meaning they got a free ride and this lowered the incentive for them to lower prices. Now when they DO lower prices for BR I would expect Netflix to thus lower prices. So I expect Netflix charging more will actually hasten a decrease in prices in the future.

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readams

July 6, 2009 7:32 PM

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If an envelope redesign makes sense, Netflix is in a position to capture the benefits of doing it regardless of charging more for blu-ray disks. Customers bear very, very little cost of a disk breaking other than the slight inconvenience of waiting an extra day or so, and Netflix must buy a new disk. If this problem is real, Netflix will be forced, by its fiduciary duty to its shareholders, to fix the problem.

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John Jordan

July 6, 2009 7:33 PM

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About 20 of my Blu-ray disks have arrived cracked yet, none of my friends' regular DVDs have ever been cracked. We all get our mail from the same post office.

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Anonymous

July 6, 2009 7:33 PM

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Note that $1 was the original extra fee for blu-ray. In the same year the entire fee structure has been redone with the same claims of higher costs for blu-ray discs.http://blog.netflix.com/2009_03_01_archive.html

The majority of the 1,200 comments in response were negative.
We both canceled blu-ray access, and dropped our service level to 2 discs from 4.
You'll also see hundreds of comments about cracked disc problems which may have to do with the post office in your particular area and how they process DVDs/Blu-Ray discs.

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SacraBos

July 6, 2009 7:55 PM

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I'm such a Luddite. I still haven't gotten a blu-ray player or a Netflix account. Besides, it's more fun for the kids to go to Movie Trading Company to pick out the flick for Movie Night

1 replies

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July 7, 2009 9:14 PM

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No you're not. Most people are not going to buy Blu-Ray just to have Blu-Ray. The majority of people that have it are PS3 owners and were forced to buy it that way.

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lehrdude

July 6, 2009 7:56 PM

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Mom always said...we should've stuck with HD DVD!

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Brazell

July 6, 2009 8:00 PM

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I have received two unplayable Netflix BluRay discs.

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ShiningSquirrel

July 6, 2009 8:01 PM

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Never had a blu-ray arrived cracked, but had regular DVDs arrive cracked many times. Actually had every dvd over a 3 week period arrive completly cracked in half, and I mean directly down the middle.

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teke367

July 6, 2009 8:05 PM

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I've had no problems with BluRay, actually had a couple regular DVDs come cracked recently. My father has been getting a couple BluRay disks that weren't playing on his player, but he says he checked and they haven't been cracked.

I'm not making excuses, but I imagine they have less BluRay disks, so they get shipped more frequently.

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Aaron Parker

July 6, 2009 8:06 PM

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I have received at least 100 blu-rays with netflix and over 50 with Blockbuster online and all of them played fine. DVD's on the other hand have been scratched to the point of being unplayable (usually about halfway into the movie) I would estimate 1 out 10 times. From my experience Blu-Ray is much better from a durability standpoint.

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July 6, 2009 8:13 PM

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I have noticed a lot of cracks on Blu-Ray discs. They start on the outer edge, working their way to the center. I haven't had any playback issues so far, but the cracking is definitely there!

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Mary

July 6, 2009 8:20 PM

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It doesn't make any business sense to just let the discs crack every other time they go out into the mail, requiring them to be replaced so often that there's no way a $1 a month extra charge would even begin to cover the costs of replacing them. The math doesn't even begin to pan out.

It really seems to me like people are stretching for reasons to hate on Netflix, when in the end they're very transparent and honest about their business practices, most of which make good sense because in the end, if the business plan isn't solvent that hurts the customers too.

They probably are researching an envelope redesign for Blu Ray, but those sorts of problems take a while to solve, and since this is the first I've heard of this problem there likely isn't a huge outcry and demand for it.

But assuming Netflix was lying about why they increased prices when the increase wasn't near enough to make up for the problem you're highlighting? Please.

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John Henschen

July 6, 2009 8:30 PM

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I use Blockbuster's rental program and I've rented about 40-50 blu-ray discs and none of them have been damaged. I HAVE, however, had about 5 of the hundreds of DVDs from them be nicked/delaminated on the edges. Damn good average if you ask me.

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July 6, 2009 8:32 PM

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These discs should always be designed to be in a diskette like floppy discs.

If I recall correctly, CDs were originally supposed to be in a diskette type case, but of course that would make them last much longer, and the manufacturers stood to profit from damaged discs being replaced. So it didn't fly.

Manufacturers want stuff to break. They don't want it to last forever. But this is just ridiculous.

1 replies

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July 6, 2009 9:37 PM

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@suburbancowboy: If I recall correctly, there was also some sort of timing issue involved. The industry wanted to go digital without waiting for the case technology, so they went ahead without it. We all (consumers) lost out on that one.

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KingPsyz

July 6, 2009 8:35 PM

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@Travishamockery: @Applekid:
While that is quite informative, the original comment lacked the insight given here.

It just grinds my gears that everytime BD gets mentioned on the internets someone has to pipe in with their mourning for HDDVD.

And regardless of stiffness or flex, netflix and gamefly use horrible packaging and should really find a better way to ship games/movies.

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Morac

July 6, 2009 8:36 PM

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I've been a Netflix subscriber for about 6 or 7 months. I only get Blu-ray discs. I've never received a cracked disk. I had one disc that had a playback issue, but that appeared to be an issue with the pressing itself, not the disc.

I don't doubt that some people are seeing occasional cracking, but I don't think it's as wide spread an issue as it's been made out to be.

See this map [www.zeemaps.com]

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KingPsyz

July 6, 2009 9:07 PM

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@nybiker:
CE: Consumer Electronics
BD: Blu Ray Format
BDA: Blu Ray (Developers?) Association

2 replies

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madog

July 6, 2009 10:10 PM

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@KingPsyz here for HappyFunKingPsyz©:

BD: Blu Ray Format.....

Blu Ray..... BD..... BR..... Blu Disk?

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KingPsyz

July 6, 2009 10:23 PM

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@madog:
I know... I don't make this stuff up, I just use the abbreviation given by the makers.

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July 6, 2009 9:11 PM

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Out of all the Blu-Ray discs I have rented, I have never had an issue with cracking. Usually I have a problem with my First Generation player from Sharp.

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Traveshamockery

July 6, 2009 9:12 PM

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@KingPsyz here for HappyFunKingPsyz©: Oh, I agree. The first post was the epitome of a useless comment.

I was/am a huge HD DVD fan, mainly because it came to market COMPLETE, unlike Blu-ray, which took more than two years to make 1.1 spec a requirement, and still makes the full spec optional. People forget that for a year, Blu-ray only offered single layer discs, resulting extra compression and poor picture quality.

I've been guilty of spouting the whole \"ohh, HD DVD, you were so perfect\" rhetoric, but it really gets annoying. It's like people who love vinyl records - they praise the fidelity and warm analog sound, but conveniently forget the nicks, pops, and hisses that came with it. HD DVD was a complete format, inexpensive, and had some very cool features, but had less capacity and that undeniably held back the presentation of many movies (lossless audio being the biggest casualty).

2 replies

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July 6, 2009 10:08 PM

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@Travishamockery:
That is the reason for my pining. HDDVD was hardly perfect, otherwise I may have purchased a player. I simply like getting everyone riled up. I am of the camp that considers high-def physical media to be an unnecessary thing. I just preferred the fact that HDDVD included many more features vs Bluray 1.0, better initial video quality, and a lower price point. If people consider that to be me promoting a monopoly, then hand me a top hat and some dice.

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Traveshamockery

July 6, 2009 11:16 PM

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That is the reason for my pining. HDDVD was hardly perfect, otherwise I may have purchased a player. I simply like getting everyone riled up. I am of the camp that considers high-def physical media to be an unnecessary thing. I just preferred the fact that HDDVD included many more features vs Bluray 1.0, better initial video quality, and a lower price point. If people consider that to be me promoting a monopoly, then hand me a top hat and some dice.

You realize, of course, that this makes you the pure definition of a troll?

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July 6, 2009 9:39 PM

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I recently joined Netflix and got received about 11 blu-rays so far and 0 of them have cracked, but let's not jinx it.

For those that got cracked discs, do they send an extra one to compensate for time lost?

1 replies

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July 7, 2009 12:55 AM

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@krunk4ever: In my experience, lost and/or damaged DVDs have never resulted in any form of compensation for time lost. Though, I have to admit, the quick and simple online form coupled with no questions asked regarding the missing/damaged DVDs is compensation enough.

Though I've never rented a Blu-Ray from them, so no experience there.

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July 6, 2009 9:45 PM

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I rented some really boring blu-ray movie a few months back so I forget the title but when it arrived it was cracked in the center. I had to send it back and report that it was a damage disc and a new one arrived shortly after. It wasn't that big of a deal because I get 4 at a time. After I watched the movie I figured that someone must of broken it after watching it. It was that bad of a film. I rent probably about 5-6 different blu-ray a month and that was the only time I got a broken disc.

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aerick79

July 6, 2009 9:46 PM

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The only problem I had is that it wouldn't play but that was from Blockbuster, So I changed and couldn't be happier. Just in case, you cared to know

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KingPsyz

July 6, 2009 10:22 PM

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@andystep12:
Oh internet how I love thee...

Annoyed /= Anger

There's not a whole lot anyone here can do to make me angry short of genocide, kiddie porn, or overt racism... And even then I know most do it for a rise.

It's a baselss and frankly annoying comment when the real mourning should be for good customer service and a company who deals soley in mailing disc format media finding a way to safely ship product. Moreso when they charge Blu customers a PREMIUM.

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Ferris152

July 6, 2009 10:25 PM

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I'm surprised by this article because I thought this was already a known issue. Netflix has said numerous times that the blu-ray discs crack more often than the regular dvds because of their less flexible outer coating and the fact that the US Postal Service (in some areas) runs the discs through the sorting machines, which apply pressure to the discs and cause them to crack (or break in half even). Netflix has tested better envelopes but nothing solves the problem like having them not run through the machines. Complain to the USPS.

1 replies

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July 6, 2009 11:32 PM

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@Ferris152:
Where did Netflix say this? I've never seen it publicly stated.

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icruise

July 6, 2009 10:30 PM

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Anecdotally, I've never had a problem with a Blu-ray disc (either broken ones or problems with them playing). I've had quite a number of problems with regular DVDs -- mostly ones that arrive all scratched to hell. Make of that what you will.

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KingPsyz

July 6, 2009 10:44 PM

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@andystep12:
it's your profile... I don't have control over what it says

1 replies

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July 7, 2009 9:00 PM

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@KingPsyz here for HappyFunKingPsyz©:

I was with you on the \"why even bother including that comment\" thinking until you went the route of doing the exact same thing. Stop being an ass just to be an ass, it's not very flattering.

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Jason Fisher

July 6, 2009 10:55 PM

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Odd, I just dropped Blockbuster in January due to this, signed up with Netflix and dropped them 2 months later after receiveing 100% non-playable blu-rays. I never looked for cracks.

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BStu

July 6, 2009 11:03 PM

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Why do you think they wouldn't pass on a costly envelope redesign to Blu-Ray customers? Maybe they are working on that, too, but it may only make economic sense to use sturdier envelope on Blu-Ray discs. Why should all the other customers subsidize the higher operations costs of renting Blu Ray discs?

I figure there are at least three good reasons for Blu-Ray rentals to cost more. The discs DO cost substantially more to buy. I'd assume they are distributed much less than standard-def discs, reducing the chance for lovely economy of scale benefits for Netflix. And if they are more susceptible to breakage, thats obviously going to increase costs. Its probably a combination of factors, but I don't see anything nefarious here.

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July 6, 2009 11:13 PM

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Not to jinx myself, but I've yet to have a cracked bluray disc from netflix.

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Odaecom

July 6, 2009 11:16 PM

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Blu-ray one with a small crack 5mm long radiating out from the center, was playable, one had visible imperfections in the label, unplayable.
Regular DVD cracked

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July 7, 2009 12:06 AM

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Wouldn't an expensive envelope redesign also get passed along to the customer? That last statement doesn't make any sense.

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KingPsyz

July 7, 2009 12:52 AM

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@Travishamockery:
The post was only missing \"FIRST!\" to seal the deal

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Will Maitner

July 7, 2009 2:08 AM

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Personally I think these BluRay discs are kinda like that safety glass. Tougher in general, but if you hit it on the edge just right, snap. I begin to wonder if they weren't engineered that way to discourage services like NetFlix since Sony and the others want to sell BluRays, not rent them out.

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BytheSea

July 7, 2009 7:35 AM

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The Blurays get used more b/c they're a new collection and Netflix has less of them. Less disks, more use, more wear and tear.

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ZManGT

July 7, 2009 11:36 AM

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If this is a problem why not just use a cardboard sleeve like GameFly?

For those that don't know GameFly's games are shipped the same way as Netflix movies but there is a cardboard sleeve you put the game in first, I assume to help brevent the disk from breaking. Seems to work well as I've never had a problem.

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Alessar

July 7, 2009 12:28 PM

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When Netflix first added a $1 surcharge for bluray access, I happened to call them about something else and commented I didn't think it was unreasonable. The customer service rep was happy to hear from someone not complaining and explained offhandedly that they cost them a lot more to buy and *that they broke a lot more*. (When they added another $3 charge to my account for blu ray, I dropped bluray access; I looked at my record and had only rented 3-4 of that type of disk out of my last 50; possibly because I rent a lot of tv on dvd.)

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July 7, 2009 2:01 PM

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If this was a serious problem for Netflix they would have started using a a cardboard sleeve like Gamefly does. How would this be expensive to \"resdesign\"?

I doubt it's a problem. Blueray is just more expensive.

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Brunette Bookworm

July 7, 2009 4:21 PM

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I think a lot depends on your mail carrier and post office. I haven't had any cracked discs but people I work with have. Since I live in an apartment and have a small maibox, my mail person generally puts the discs either on top of the boxes or in front of my door.

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July 7, 2009 9:11 PM

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I don't have Blu-Ray, but over the many years I've had Netflix I've received quite a few badly damaged discs.. some that were completely snapped in half actually. I'd say that whatever force snapped those in half can easily crack another disc, regardless of whether it's 1mm thicker or whatever or not.
I've received about 20-30 in total that were unplayable. One time I received a copy of Dr. Dre's The Chronic for some reason (not a movie for those that don't know). I sent it back to them, but then they sent it back to me insisting that it was mine. I threw it away because it was cracked the second time around. I've also gotten 2 movies in the same sleeve. Those that have never had any problems at all are quite frankly incredibly lucky.

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July 7, 2009 9:12 PM

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This would be a good time for a poll...

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navstar

July 7, 2009 10:47 PM

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Never had a problem with any Netflix blu-rays. Now, Gamefly PS3 discs on the other hand.... lots of problems.

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larkknot

July 8, 2009 1:33 AM

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I had a PS3 game break like this - we thought we must have done it accidentally somehow, but it didn't show any other signs of damage like scratching - just an enormous crack radiating out from the middle.

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July 8, 2009 2:17 AM

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I am a Blockbuster Customer and have only once had a Blu Ray show up damaged, and it honestly looked more like a manufacturing defect than a crack. So far I have been very pleased at how effective the anti-scratch \"armor\" is on the disks.

Another thought is that while it is typical that a plasctic will become less ductile (bendable) when it becomes harder it is not necessarily the case, especially if we are talking about layers. Samurai swords are both hard and ductile thanx to multiple layers of materials.

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Anonymous

July 10, 2009 8:32 PM

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My last 3 NetFlix BluRay discs have been cracked and unplayable. 7 of my last 21 have been. Prior to December 2008 I never had a problem (and had rented nothing but BluRay since joining NetFlix in December 2007). My discs come from Hartford, CT and are shipped to zipcode 12538, fwiw.

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ekasbury

July 11, 2009 2:00 AM

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Netflix still rents Blu-Ray discs? Hmm. News to me.

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Anonymous

July 18, 2009 6:50 PM

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Your $1 figure is incorrect. You may have been referring to the previous surcharge that was added just last October. This time around, Netflix is charging its customers with Blu-Ray access up to $9 extra per month, depending on the plan they have For customers with the 3 dvd at a time plan, which I think is the most popular one, the surcharge is $4 per month. You can see the range of surcharges on the official Netflix blog.

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