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dohtem
July 30, 2009 9:22 PM
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Someone get Mr. Cuomo on the phone!

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1 replies
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HiPwr
July 31, 2009 12:06 AM
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@dohtem: I thought Cuomo was an AG. Was there a law broken?

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Eldritch
July 30, 2009 9:32 PM
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Are airlines in Europe or Asia having problems like this? Is this an American airline problem or do other airlines do this shit too?

I'm just curious.

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6 replies
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LoveyH
July 31, 2009 6:18 AM
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@Eldritch:
Lufthansa charges $150 per ticket, or did in March when I called them to ask if I could change my return date on a round-trip ticket. Since it was my daughter and myself, it would have been $300. I decided not to do it.

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jamar0303
July 31, 2009 3:23 AM
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@Eldritch: In China, at least, most Asian airlines that fly out of there have \"open\" and \"closed\" tickets. Open tickets let you change dates, closed tickets don't (without a fee or not at all, depends on the airline). UA charged me US$210 to change a Shanghai-Chicago-Nashville ticket (that originally cost US$1860- JAL wanted less but my mom has \"brand loyalty\", though the fact that we've been delayed 4 hours on the first segment, missed our connecting flights, and were ill-treated by the UA customer service staff on 2 out of 3 trips like this means that we'll finally be flying JAL next time).

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rockasocky
July 31, 2009 1:11 AM
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@Eldritch: JAL charges $150 to change your ticket, so I don't think it's purely American.

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kepler11
July 30, 2009 11:13 PM
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@Eldritch: you may want to be thankful for US-based airlines, and their change fee policies, compared to some European discounters. At least US airlines let you change a ticket for a fee. With Ryanair and others, you'll never get to use that ticket again. And \"refund\"? What part of \"no refunds\" didn't you understand? (and actual quote from the head of Ryanair)

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nybiker
July 30, 2009 9:36 PM
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@Eldritch: +1. Yeah, inquiring minds want to know.

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TheWillow
July 30, 2009 9:55 PM
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@nybiker: I think Ryan Air, a frequent consumerist offender, is UK based.

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dohtem
July 30, 2009 10:12 PM
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@TheWillow: Ryan Air does trick anyone that it is a low cost carrier. If I understand correctly, your plane ticket pays for your seat and that's it. *Anything* else costs extra.

These American carriers are just using fees to make up for their failing business model.

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dohtem
July 30, 2009 10:17 PM
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@dohtem: oops.. that should read, \"Ryan Air does not trick anyone...\"

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Applekid
July 30, 2009 9:32 PM
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How about \"Every airline should weigh the likelihood they will have to stop being complete assholes when trying to get any business at all.\"?

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2 replies
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winshape
July 30, 2009 9:35 PM
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@Applekid:
Airline: Whatchoo gonna do about it? Drive from NY to CA? Ha!

This is borderline price-fixing and/or collusion.

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kepler11
July 30, 2009 11:16 PM
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@winshape: You all must be kidding me. Airlines have demonstrated that they have the worst pricing power of just about any industry. They're at the whim of customers (you and I) who will switch carriers over a $5 fare difference. Every route between 2 major cities has several carriers serving it, all dumping excess capacity on the market uncoordinated and undercutting each other. They're struggling to make a profit and you think they have price-fixing/collusion power?

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jamar0303
July 31, 2009 3:25 AM
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@kepler11: Then what do they have against letting more players into the market? obviously there's something going that's more than they let on. EU-US open skies disallows Euro carriers from flying intra-US routes but allows US carriers to fly intra-Euro routes. If the US carriers were really that weak how did that happen?

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Saboth
July 30, 2009 9:48 PM
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Hmm just makes me want to fly even less. Hope the government gets to work on those mass transit lines all over the US.

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TCama
July 30, 2009 9:52 PM
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Every traveler should weigh the likelihood they will have to change their itinerary prior to travel when assessing each fare type and price.

Translation: the more expensive classes of tickets allow you to cancel penalty-free. Buy these.

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nybiker
July 30, 2009 9:53 PM
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Where can we get a large-size version of the nice airplane photo shown for this story?

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wxchick
July 30, 2009 9:53 PM
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Does Amtrack or Greyhound charge change fees? I realize the airlines have most of the traveling public over a barrel because, as one commenter stated, who's going to drive from NY to CA? But still ... I'm pretty sick of them charging fees just because they can.

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donjumpsuit
July 30, 2009 9:55 PM
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I am so sick of companies as a whole. It's us against them. Credit card companies raise our APR for no reason, charge us $40 for being late by one day. Cable companies charge too much for internet, throttle amounts, won't let us buy only what we want. Recently a rental car company charged me $600 for a tow, and the credit card company wouldn't reverse it. I also had to pay a $175 fee, during the swine flu explosion because I didn't want to fly. It pisses me off to feel helpless. If they just treated consumers with respect, I wouldn't be attempting to fraud every company I come in contact with at all costs. So I can get free internet, free movies, free music. It seems I have to because I take the shaft all day long, I might as well get some sort of retribution, even if its not direct. Such as shame.

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5 replies
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enderx
July 31, 2009 2:15 AM
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@donjumpsuit: Get off the cross, somebody else needs the wood!

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kepler11
July 30, 2009 11:20 PM
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@donjumpsuit: I AGREE! I'm sick of these airlines serving so many cities and offering us different ways of getting places! I despise those rental car companies that offer a way to drive a car when I arrive in a different country. And let me tell you about those tow truck drivers -- I was happily sitting in my car stranded in the middle of nowhere, and this tow truck had the nerve to show up and see if I needed help!

I hate companies.

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HiPwr
July 31, 2009 12:08 AM
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@kepler11: Hey, I work for a company! Anyone else here work for a company?

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Paul Carr
July 31, 2009 4:31 PM
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@HiPwr: and I thought I was the only one!

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TheFlamingoKing
July 30, 2009 10:24 PM
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@donjumpsuit: Such a passive, defeatist attitude you take about your own money.

No credit card company forced you to take their money. A loan would have had terms and conditions around raising rates. But you chose an unsecured method of borrowing money from other bank users - don't be surprised if they change the terms since it's both within the agreement and since you've borrowed money from them with nothing to back it up.

Either you willingly signed a contract with your cable company, or you're free to switch cable companies tomorrow.

There's an open competitive market for tow trucks. Did you just use the one without price researching first?

You made a choice not to fly. The terms and conditions on your tickets were available when you bought them.

Stop feeling helpless and do something about it! People that believe that corporations just steamroll them and give them the shaft just don't realize that they have no power over you that you don't give them. It's your money, demand what you want with it!

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dohtem
July 30, 2009 10:33 PM
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@TheFlamingoKing: According to your post, \"doing something about it\" really means taking your money elsewhere.

What happens when the whole industry decides to stick it to consumers e.g. Airlines uniformly raising rates and fees. Are we supposed to just do without?

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TheFlamingoKing
July 31, 2009 3:06 PM
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@dohtem: Well, that is called collusion and that is when the government should step in. That won't happen as long as we have this merger of corporate lobbying and public politics, because the politicians don't serve the will of the people and work to ensure a free open market competition.

But the prior step to that is based in the fact that airlines are deregulated, and therefore given enough start capital, you can start your own airline fixing whatever \"problems\" the other airlines do that made you want to stop using them in the first place. If you come up with a good enough business plan and execution, you can get the capital you need. If people would take advantage of a situation and see that things get changed rather than sit and complain about it that would solve more problems, in my opinion.

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Nighthawke
July 30, 2009 10:01 PM
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Oh, I can see the airline passenger bill of rights passing as-is with that comment, with no input from the airlines, hands down.

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NeverLetMeDown
July 30, 2009 10:03 PM
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It's a very simple tradeoff - want a cheap ticket? Take the restrictions. Want fully refundable? Pay more.

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TheFlamingoKing
July 30, 2009 10:31 PM
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\"Why should we be charged $150 to change a $200 ticket because someone got sick and couldn't fly that day?\"

In order to keep ticket prices low, airlines need to maximize the number of people on each plane. If everyone could just change tickets whenever they wanted, it would make it impossible to forecast necessary routes and economically plan for the future. Plane tickets would shoot up to 1960's regulation era prices pretty fast.

Right now we have a market with a number of options. You can buy a cheap flight, and in order to keep those costs low, sacrifice amenities like free flight rebooking. Or you can purchase a more expensive ticket that allows those options.

Bottom line: if you use the force of government to make providers drop these fees, the overall price of tickets has to go up just for the airlines to maintain the current routes. Otherwise, smaller cities will lose their airports as less utilized routes get priced out of the market.

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1 replies
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Coelacanth
July 31, 2009 1:52 PM
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@TheFlamingoKing: If you use the force of government to make providers drop these fees, the overall price of ticketes has to go up just for the airlines to maintain the current routes.


Agreed. However, I think there's something rather deceptive in advertising super-low airfare, only to be gouged by fees after a commitment has been made. Yes, they're all in the fine print, but there's something to be said about being honest and including the true cost upfront.


It helps people budget accordingly, and encourages competition, since the true cost is easy to compare without performing several annoying calculations. (Of course, this is exactly what the airline companies probably want people to avoid being able to do easily!)

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nybiker
July 30, 2009 10:53 PM
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My thought is why do the change / cancellation policies have to be so draconian? Especially when someone makes a mistake? We're all human and we make mistakes. We (especially us Consumerist readers) know to double-check things, but sometimes, stuff happens. If I book a flight in January for a trip in July and 30 minutes later I realize I made a mistake of some sort, why can't it be changed right then and there for a nominal fee (and by nominal, I mean what us consumers would consider nominal, not what the corporations think is nominal)? I am not arguing against any sort of fare change that might be incurred because I fix a mistake, but against the $150 change fee. And how about making the cancellation fee a graduated one? Again, 6 months out, it's not like they can't sell the seat. As one gets closer to departure time, the cancellation fee goes up. Same for a change fee. If the walk-up fare is $500 but I paid $200 6 months ago to leave on a Tuesday, but on Monday I want to change it to leave on Wednesday, well, I'll pay the $300 difference in fares, but why still the $150 or $200 change fare? Seems excessive to me.

/just my opinion, I could be wrong.

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1 replies
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NeverLetMeDown
July 31, 2009 4:29 PM
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@nybiker:


Most (but not all) airlines actually do have a 24 hour refund policy, but only if you book it through them (not through a travel agent though).


Also, the reason why, if you bought a $200 ticket, and want to change it to a $500 ticket, you can't just pay the $300 is because then everybody would just buy in advance if they _thought_ they were going, and change if they needed to, but if they didn't need to change, fly on the $200 ticket. It's designed to ensure that people who think they may need to make last minute changes buy the premium tickets.

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Thaddeus
July 30, 2009 10:57 PM
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I'm seeing mutiple fee-fees and a non-fee fee in our future.

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kepler11
July 30, 2009 11:11 PM
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wow, I thought for sure this must be Meg Marco posting this story.

Let's act like we're actually rational people and not for some silly reason expecting that a fee need have any relation to the price/costs underlying it. An iPod don't cost $300 to make, have you noticed? So let's just put aside that bit about $150 fee on a $200 ticket. It doesn't matter how much the ticket originally cost. And let's actually take time to think about the issues rather than knee-jerking.

Why should you be charged $150 to change your ticket?

Because: 1) you agreed to do so, 2) the airline could have simply not even allowed you to change it at all, and 3) that change fee allowed you to buy a cheaper ticket.

You decided to buy a cheap airline ticket that comes with restrictions, because that kind of ticket benefits both parties -- the airline can rely on you to show up for the flight (generally), and you get a cheaper ticket that if you wanted to be able to change it any time.

If the airline didn't charge anything to change your ticket (for whatever reason), why would people ever buy expensive refundable tickets then?

If you got sick at the last minute -- sorry, but you agreed to use that ticket, and it doesn't really matter to the airline why you're going to miss that flight. The same applies for many other kinds of ticket you buy where the value of it is in the specific time and date of the event. In exchange for certainty, you get a discount. Get travel insurance for the unexpected, if you hate the idea of a $150 change fee. But travel insurance isn't free either -- you pay to have options.

You may be surprised to know that some discount carriers will never give you a refund, or even let you use the credit towards a future flight, even with a fee if you wanted. How would you like that?

To the commenter just above, on why a mistake can't be corrected 30 minutes later -- it can, on some airlines. They'll let you change/cancel the ticket within 24 hours.

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calchip
July 30, 2009 11:16 PM
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I am mortified to hear that Southwest is considering jumping on the bandwagon of the other airlines in doing this.

One of the things that has always separated Southwest from the other greedy piece-of-$#!7 airlines is their pro-Customer attitude and friendly, flexible service. Particularly given that everything necessary to reschedule a flight can be done on the web, there's no justification for charging change fees, unless it's something really nominal like $5 or something.

The dinosaur airlines lost my business years ago and I really hope that Southwest continues to follow the policies that have made them so popular with their Customers for so long.

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1 replies
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kepler11
July 30, 2009 11:27 PM
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@calchip:
Why is there no justification for charging change fees? If customers are willing to pay them, why should a business not charge a fee? Why is even $5 ok if you believe that?

Why should Southwest charge extra to be first on board the airplane? Why should Southwest charge extra for your 3rd bag? Shouldn't it provide those things for free?

It's all a matter of degrees. If you're rational, you'll see that Southwest isn't different really. They just start charging at a different point. Don't be fooled into thinking they couldn't do the same things.

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aguacarbonica
July 30, 2009 11:29 PM
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I love Southwest, and I really hope it doesn't change.


You know, we always talk about e-mail bombing with complaints. But I for one am going to send a letter to Southwest to tell them about how amazing my experience with them has been so far and how I hope they will separate themselves from the fray.


If other people do the same thing, maybe they will see that it is financially advantageous for them to remain the way they are...

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3 replies
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golddog
July 31, 2009 9:06 AM
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@aguacarbonica: Be curious to see how much that changes if they actually buy Frontier...

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italianscallion33
July 31, 2009 6:02 AM
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@aguacarbonica: Tack my name onto the end of that email! I am a loyal Southwest customer now. I wanted to go visit my friends in Milwaukee (from Detroit) but they won't have SW till the fall, so I am driving because I hate dealing with other airlines.

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aguacarbonica
August 1, 2009 2:46 AM
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@italianscallion33:


I went to Milwaukee last weekend by way of Southwest at Chicago Midway + rental car.

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The-Seeker
July 30, 2009 11:33 PM
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Isn't nearly every flight oversold and there is typically always someone waiting on standby. So if you change your flight, someone is already there to take your place.
If the flight isn't oversold, it isn't full, so if you take a different flight, what difference does it make then.

Because they can is the answer.

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edguitar
July 31, 2009 1:50 PM
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@The-Seeker: Now that you touch the stand by issue, I ahve a story about it. I was in Charlotte waitng for my connection when US airwais asked if anyone was willing to go on a later flight, they would give youa 150 dollar voucher.
I felt like a smarty pants that day so i went to the counter and said to the lady, that I was interested only if they will offer me a voucher for the price I pay for my ticket ($300) they of course said no but made me wonder.
If Iwas on the situation to where I actualy needed to go on a alter flight they would've charged me 150 dollars plus the difference between the tickets. $150 pfft voucher that is just offensive.

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NeverLetMeDown
July 31, 2009 4:30 PM
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@edguitar:


It's not offensive, it's just less than you were willing to accept. Presumably, somebody else thought it was fair. If not, they would have kept raising the voucher to $600, at which point, if they had no takers, they would have started involuntarily bumping people.

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H3ion
July 31, 2009 12:45 AM
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Disclosure. Make the airlines provide the passenger with full and understandable information about all fees that the airline could charge. That way, the consumer could compare airlines and make his/her own decision. And no one could say that the passenger didn't know about the fee in advance.

Either that or go back to filing tarrifs with the FAA and the airlines can't change the rules without permission. That wasn't actually so bad.

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H3ion
August 1, 2009 2:29 AM
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@H3ion: @NeverLetMeDown: I'm more than willing to be proven wrong, but I remember that they had to file their fare schedule as part of the tariff, required approval of the filing, and couldn't change it without approval. I'm not sure that was a better system but at least it was somewhat consistent. The fare you were quoted on Monday was the fare you were charged on Wednesday.

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NeverLetMeDown
July 31, 2009 4:31 PM
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@H3ion:


The airlines do file tariffs with the FAA.

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italianscallion33
July 31, 2009 6:00 AM
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@H3ion: That's the issue with sites like expedia and travelocity. You have even less up front info about the airline-specific fees, it seems.

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RedwoodFlyer
July 31, 2009 2:54 AM
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Wow WSJ, way to jump to conclusions!

Southwest's CEO said \"We've got to be open-minded to anything, quite frankly,\" Mr. Kelly said.\" because a certain trio of Wall Street \"analysts\" who have disclosed that they hold many shares in AMR keep bringing up the issue of fees.

Kelly said that basically as a STFU - he obviously doesn't want to tell his investors to pound sand...but Wall Street thinking hasn't exactly helped the industry. When you buy assets with a 30 year lifespan, short term thinking is suicide.

The only \"fees\" Southwest has added are for pets - something they never offered before - and $25 for kids, which is 1/4th what AA charges.

Southwest NEVER said they are considering a change fee, and shame on the WSJ for drawing conclusions.

So glad they are losing subscribers!

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RedwoodFlyer
July 31, 2009 2:59 AM
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To everyone complaining about the fees: I don't like them either, so guess what? I avoid the legacy carriers at all costs. It's a shame that jetBlue implemented higher fees...but they needed to differentiate their new refundable tickets more.

The airline industry as a whole has never been cash-positive, so it's not fair to say they are \"ripping you off.\" The fact is that it is VERY expensive to transport people in a $60 million jet that holds 137 people. To paraphrase the economist Louis C.K., you should be glad you don't have to cross the country in a Conestoga Wagon with Indians shooting arrows at you....

Charging these fees is what allows reasonably priced tickets to and from anywhere (remember, Southwest is mainly about flying point-to-point, which limits the city-pair possibilities. When you have a connection in ATL, DEN, or wherever else, you're basically doubling the amount of flying involved = roughly doubling how much it costs to move you.)

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Lee Gibson
July 31, 2009 5:00 AM
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There is nothing more perishable than airplane tickets. As soon as that door shuts, every open seat is a liability.

Is it unfortunate? Sure. Would it be nice if there was enough profit margin in air travel for the carriers to defray this cost? Sure.

But if you want cheap airfare, this is what it costs.

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Rain
July 31, 2009 5:25 AM
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I'd pay extra to avoid that plane.

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italianscallion33
July 31, 2009 6:00 AM
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lol, nice photo.

I was in Sydney for a study abroad program, decided I could not afford to stay the recommended 2 extra weeks to go get drunk on the beaches further north, and a few friends decided the same thing. One of them called United, flirted with the CSR a bit, and got our tickets changed to 2 weeks earlier for FREE.

Granted, this is the exception, not the rule, but airlines are sometimes cool.

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cupcake_ninja
July 31, 2009 8:44 AM
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A spokesman for American proffers the following advice: \"Every traveler should weigh the likelihood they will have to change their itinerary prior to travel when assessing each fare type and price.\"

So in other words:
Got a confirmed case of Swine Flu or other highly contagious ailment? Fly anyway.

Who the heck would want to pay exorbitant, ridiculous fees in this craptastic of an economy?

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Skipweasel
July 31, 2009 10:58 AM
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This is starting to sound like Sirius Cybernetics Corporation's Complaints Division - the only part of the company to show a profit.

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nnj
July 31, 2009 12:59 PM
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Awesome pic.


Not that I am defending the airlines, but aviation is an expensive business. I know the fees are steep, but necessary. Filling a 757 from NY to Florida and back, at discount coach fares of around $189 couldn't cover the expenses alone in operating that flight.


Air fare is an extermely price sensitive issue. American Airlines scrapped their more leg room in coach because passengers were not willing to pay the extra $15 per direction.

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tailstoo
July 31, 2009 1:17 PM
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This is the new way to make larger profits - put fees on everything!

Think about it - what industry isn't feeing us to death anymore? It's making it so consumers have no idea of what their final cost will be, so it's harder to compare.

Go buy a ticket to a baseball game there's a fee.

Buy a car - how many fees are hidden after you get to a final price that they try to get away with?

How many fees are in your cell phone bill each month?

Go get new tires for your car - there's a fee for disposing the old tires, balancing, stems, etc.

Stay in a hotel - there are plenty of fees added in.

Outside of the most simple transactions, fees are being loaded in all over.

Unfortunately, because whole industries all jump on the bandwagon, it's almost impossible to avoid them.

What would it take for companies to be forced to go back to telling us what we would actually have to pay for things??

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theblackdog
July 31, 2009 2:03 PM
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Every traveler should weigh the likelihood they will have to change their itinerary prior to travel when assessing each fare type and price.

Yes, because I was really expecting to have an emergency appendectomy a few days before I was scheduled to fly out, asshole.

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