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mrgenius
June 30, 2009 5:36 PM
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I just saw Food, Inc. I am never eating anything again!

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MauriceCallidice
June 30, 2009 10:08 PM
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@mrgenius: Remember: 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food.

Make sure your will's in order. :-)

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mrgenius
July 1, 2009 2:03 PM
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@MauriceCallidice: Well, I guess I have two more days then! :)

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Cat_In_A_Hat
June 30, 2009 5:55 PM
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@mrgenius: I saw it last friday and my grocery shopping trip on saturday was one interesting experience. The meat aisle will never look the same again.

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lastingsmilledge
June 30, 2009 5:41 PM
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if you're buying produce, there's an even simpler rule of thumb: if you're eating the skin, it's probably more important to buy organic.

i've worked produce all through college and now law school, and that's definitely influenced me to spend what little money i have on organics. opening boxes of non-organic apples and almost passing out because of the fumes will do that to you.

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Etoiles
June 30, 2009 6:03 PM
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@lastingsmilledge: I was just thinking that. An orange or pomegranate or banana (if I ate bananas, which I don't) that had pesticides on it wouldn't bother me so much, because the part I'm eating is under up to half an inch of peel.

On the other hand, if I could afford for all of my berries to be organic...

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SeniorPonzologist_GitEmSteveDave
June 30, 2009 5:45 PM
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@lastingsmilledge: Wow, your apples shipped in sealed containers? Any chance it was the natural ethylene gas that got you?

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lastingsmilledge
June 30, 2009 6:30 PM
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@SeniorPonzologist_GitEmSteveDave: the boxes are actually pretty well ventilated.... there's definitely a residue on the cardboard that you can feel and smell hours after emptying the box so i doubt it's just the ethylene. the paper wrappers that pears and eggplant are individually wrapped in are also laden with residue. there are so many other examples of the drawbacks of non-organics and benefits of organics.... the sulfur dioxide liners on grapes say \"DO NOT TOUCH - DISPOSE OF IMMEDIATELY\" but they are in contact with the grapes the whole time during transit. the organic salads often stay crisp two weeks after their expiration date, whereas the others start browning before they leave the store.

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Shoelace
June 30, 2009 5:43 PM
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If fruits and vegetables with pesticides are thoroughly washed and/or peeled, how much does that reduce the amount of pesticides ingested? Does this depend on the thickness of porousness of the food?

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Shoelace
June 30, 2009 5:43 PM
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Sorry - 'thickness OR porousness'

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crashfrog
June 30, 2009 5:44 PM
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Organic produce can have pesticides. Usually different pesticides, but organic cultivars are often bred for insect resistance by high levels of their own natural pesticides. (And it's not unknown for organic farmers to spray their produce with Bacillis thurengensis toxins, or even the bacteria itself, but that's pretty safe to eat.)

But \"natural\" doesn't mean \"safe to eat.\" (That's sort of the point, to be poisonous to the animals that eat them.) Organic celery, for instance, can often contain 100 times the normal concentrations of bergaptin, a carcinogenic toxin. Organic produce has even been subject to recalls because natural toxin levels were so high.

Personally I'd rather have the pesticides on the surface of the produce, where they quickly break down when exposed to water and sunlight, than expressed inside the produce itself.

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consumerfan
June 30, 2009 9:17 PM
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@crashfrog: Organic produce cannot have ANY artificial or processed pesticides.

Your example of organic celery is particularly misleading. First of all, there is no robust evidence that it's carcinogenic in humans (IARC 1987 [www.inchem.org]). Secondly, it's only activated by ultraviolet so unless you plan on eating celery and then going to a tanning salon, you're safe enough. Finally, there's an assumption you neglected to mention - that organic produce is unprotected by the farmer.

Now, I don't eat celery. But if I did, I'd eat organic celery since it absorbs pesticides more than most vegetables.

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crashfrog
June 30, 2009 9:56 PM
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@consumerfan: Organic produce cannot have ANY artificial or processed pesticides.

Not strictly true. Organic farmers can spray Bt toxin or organism, and they can use cultivars that express high levels of natural pesticides.

Most of the pesticides we use, after all, are synthetic versions of chemicals plants had already evolved to defend against predation.

First of all, there is no robust evidence that it's carcinogenic in humans

From your link: \"5-Methoxypsoralen is probably carcinogenic to humans (Group 2A).\" Or from this study: \"These compounds have been reported to be carcinogenic, mutagenic, teratogenic, and to cause phytophotodermatitis (an epidermal reaction symptomized by bullous eruptions, pigmentation, and potential vesicle formation)...We observed for the first time that ingestion of bergapten and/or xanthotoxin decreased weight gain and birthrate of rats. \"

Secondly, it's only activated by ultraviolet

What, you mean like that found outside? Where celery is grown? Or like how you might get it on your hands as you handle it, and then go out in the sun?

Finally, there's an assumption you neglected to mention - that organic produce is unprotected by the farmer.

Well, they're not using pesticides, right?

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courtarro
June 30, 2009 8:46 PM
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@crashfrog: All the more reason to avoid celery. Yick.

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mmmsoap
June 30, 2009 5:55 PM
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Sure, if you're eating organic to strictly avoid pesticide consumption, these are decent rules of thumb to follow.

But there are a lot of other reasons to eat \"organic\", such as wanting to avoid excessive petroleum use (in pesticide and transport) or to support sustainable agriculture. Granted, there are definitely levels, and many big-brand \"organics\" aren't much better than the conventional versions, but there are options that are significantly better for the water supply, carbon-footprint, and livestock health.

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Ratty
July 1, 2009 12:44 AM
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@mmmsoap: At my grocery stores, organic is usually grown and shipped from overseas, and non-organic is local. So no, organic =/= petrol friendly.

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govkid201
July 1, 2009 12:13 AM
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@mmmsoap: After working in produce for a while I know that organics are much more wasteful than other produce. For the most part they are still shipped in wax coated cardboard which is not recyclable. Most organics come in boxes with paper separating each piece of fruit or vegetable because they are much more delicate than other produce.

there is no difference in transport. they arrive the same way as other produce and with more packaging nothing saved.
They also are not really sustainable. Think about it. organics are harder to grow so a farmer gets less produce per acre. that causes the soil to become nutrient depleted quicker than if they were to use conventional methods that add nutrients rather than remove them.

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crashfrog
June 30, 2009 9:11 PM
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@mmmsoap: \"Organic\" doesn't mean \"local\", though, or that they were brought to market on a bicycle.

And for many applications organic agriculture is fundamentally unsustainable, due to the higher land and water use.

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ekthesy
June 30, 2009 5:57 PM
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Another tip: eggs labeled USDA Organic are laid by cage-free chickens as part of getting the USDA Organic designation, even if the package doesn't say \"cage-free.\"

Not that \"cage-free\" is any picnic. Granted, the chickens aren't in battery cages the size of a shoebox, but they are often crammed into large barns cheek-to-jowl. Neither is a particularly enjoyable life.

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Mr_D
June 30, 2009 5:58 PM
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If you ask me? Never.

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GuinevereRucker
June 30, 2009 7:20 PM
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@Mr_D: Totally agree. I see it as a marketing ploy, and just like any other label on any other product, I'm immediately suspicious and usually disregard it.

Sometimes I feel like an \"organic\" label is just an excuse to mark something up 200%. Being cheap, it never tempts me.

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rudeskata
June 30, 2009 6:17 PM
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@Mr_D: If you go back a few generations all food was naturally produced. Factory \"farms\" aren't helping anyone but the companies exploiting them.

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Robert Synnott
June 30, 2009 7:48 PM
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@rudeskata: Also, even very developed countries had major food shortages from time to time, and the maximum possible world population bearing load was believed to be 2 billion. You know, it wasn't a utopia.

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rudeskata
June 30, 2009 8:50 PM
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@Robert Synnott: Population growth is a man made problem, same with the pollution cased by factory farms.

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satoru
June 30, 2009 6:16 PM
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If you want to avoid pesticides you're going to have to grow your own food. Organic food producers use pesticides. They just don't use synthetic ones, but they are pesticides none the less.

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consumerfan
June 30, 2009 9:47 PM
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@satoru: Sulfur is the most frequently used pesticide. It kills bugs but is \"not otherwise harmful to humans\".

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pecan 3.14159265
June 30, 2009 6:17 PM
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I'd love to eat organic peaches and strawberries to avoid pesticides but they seem so expensive right now (peaches anywhere from $2 to $3 a pound and strawberries at $3 a pound) that if I wanted any at all I have to buy regular - and on sale. Eating organic is awesome but I can barely justify a pound of peaches at $3 let alone more for the organic version. I know $3 doesn't seem like a lot but that only covers 4 or 5 peaches and usually not even that many. And I never see organic berries on sale.

I'll stick to taking advantage of .99 (on sale) red grapes that have ambiguous origins but won't make me feel guilty for spending money.

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idx
June 30, 2009 6:28 PM
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I like organic milk, it taste better and lasts much longer than the non-organic variety. Even though it costs about twice as much, I think I save money in the long run since I can't drink a gallon of conventional milk before it expires.

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stennieville
June 30, 2009 8:31 PM
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@idx: I only buy organic milk now. Regular milk was making me sick, I thought I was becoming lactose intolerant. I've switched to organic and it tastes better, lasts longer, seems colder somehow (? Not sure how that's possible), and does not play havoc with my tummy. Worth the extra $1/gallon to me.

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floraposte
June 30, 2009 7:00 PM
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@idx: Just look for ultra-pasteurized milk. That's what makes organic milk last longer, not its organic nature.

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neega
June 30, 2009 7:58 PM
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@floraposte: The organic pasteurized dairy I buy lasts long after the date on the bottle and is delicious. Ultra-pasteurization may extend shelf life but it removes taste.

It's surprising how much stuff has to be added back to whipping cream after it's been ultra-pasteurized to make it taste and act like whipping cream again. There should be one ingredient listed on a carton of cream: cream.

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stellarceltic
June 30, 2009 6:39 PM
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@idx: But you could probably drink a half gallon before it expires.

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satoru
June 30, 2009 6:31 PM
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The website is doesn't lay out some of the critical information needed. The scary table they lay out simply states the incident rate of detecting pesticides within a particular fruit after it has been washed and peeled. This isn't surprising since pesticides could come in through the outside of the fruit, or through the roots possibly.

What they don't list out is the actual levels detected in each case. For example, peaches is at the top of their list, but if the levels are very low, then unless you were eating an orchard full of peaches a day, it might not even reach toxic levels. Without such data, their chart is pretty meaningless. Recall before how a study detected drugs in the water supply, but at such low levels you'd have to snort a whole lake's worth to get high.

Not that organic doesn't have its benefits. I find that local organic food tastes better, since it is picked when it's ripe, and not picked to survive a 2-3 week truck ride to my supermarket. But if something isn't in season, then I don't find going organic really makes much of a difference in terms of taste.

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lpranal
June 30, 2009 8:06 PM
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@satoru: have to aggree:

The six measures of contamination we used were:
Percent of the samples tested with detectable pesticides
Percent of the samples with two or more pesticides
Average number of pesticides found on a sample
Average amount (level in parts per million) of all pesticides found
Maximum number of pesticides found on a single sample
Number of pesticides found on the commodity in total

It doesn't seem to matter if the pesticide is toxic or not, nor how toxic it is. Just that pesticides are there. I mean, technically milk can be used as a fungicide/pesticide (i've used it on plants, it works). I don't really care that every single peach they tested has a molecule of phosphorus on it, I want to know, on average, how many parts per million of potentially HARMFUL contaminants there are, on average. All that other BS looks like a great way to find false positives.

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Stephen Schenck
June 30, 2009 7:20 PM
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This information makes the assumption that low levels of pesticides are harmful. Seems like a no-brainer, but it's not the sort of assumption that should be made without being backed up by hard data.

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crashfrog
June 30, 2009 9:15 PM
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@Stephen Schenck: Not always a no-brainer. Just because something is toxic to an insect or to a plant doesn't mean that it's toxic to humans at any concentration.

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Stephen Schenck
July 1, 2009 2:46 AM
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@crashfrog: Yes, we realize it's actually not, hence \"seems like\".

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crashfrog
July 1, 2009 5:05 AM
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@Stephen Schenck: I guess I was agreeing and elaborating, not contradicting.

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randombob
June 30, 2009 7:22 PM
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I moved to a new region a couple of years ago. The culture here is steeped in local & organic, and a lot of the people try to adhere to the \"good husbandry\" philosophy. When me & my Fiancé made it up here, we aimed to work in some organic into our diet. After one shopping trip though, we decided that \"working it in\" was not an option, and it was worth the cost for us to just get on board immediately.

The flavor is better, it lasts longer, and it's better for you? Yeah what's not to like, eh?

I work out and take care of my body, and I'm typically a little more in touch with how diet/exercise affects a person. I have been eating healthy since long before I went \"organic.\" Almost immediately after going all-organic, I managed to drop about 2\" off my waistline. I was not fat, I'm unsuccessful weightlifter, and I HAD a 32\" waist before. That's right, I dropped down to 30\" waist. I didn't even know I had that much unnecessary weight to begin with, as I'm very lean anyway.

And no, I didn't just \"lose weight.\" I lost water weight/fat/other \"bad\" weight. My arm size stayed the same, I was still lifting the same amounts. The only difference was, I went organic, and my 6-pack turned into an 8-pack, and I've never been in better health in my entire life.

Yes, Organic is for real.

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crashfrog
June 30, 2009 9:20 PM
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@randombob: I've never noticed a better flavor in any organic product, and there's no evidence that organic is better for you (I worked for a few years in the field of agronomy.)

The changes to your diet were probably not just conventional to organic - you probably eat more fruits and vegetables altogether. But understand that your paying an extra dollar or more per fruit for something marketed as a panacea but not at all proven in effectiveness. The fact that you're paying more for the same thing might be why you think they taste better (it's a known bias in the human mind.)

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randombob
June 30, 2009 7:25 PM
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@randombob:
Also of note, the thing that I noticed the biggest taste difference in going organic was chicken. Oh my, I couldn't believe that CHICKEN had an actual FLAVOR. You don't get chicken with FLAVOR at the supermarket, you get some white meat that hopefully holds some barbeque sauce or teriyaki well.

But Organic free-range chicken HAZ A FLAVUR. I couldn't believe it.

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Stephen Schenck
June 30, 2009 8:44 PM
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@randombob: Anecdotes are not evidence.

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randombob
July 1, 2009 6:24 AM
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@Stephen Schenck:
Well I'm sorry dude, here how's this: loan me a freakin' scientist and boat-loads of money and I'll give you a mulit-million dollar study on the matter. If it was as simple as \"scientist A tasted my poop and concluded that it tasted the exact same as before I was on organic produce,\" then we wouldn't still be discussing it.

Remember, Eggs were good for you, then bad for you, then good for you, then bad for you, OH but wait, now they're good for you again.

@crashfrog: No my diet is the same. That's the reason I mentioned that I workout often and whatnot; I'm very regimented about my diet as I'm what's termed a \"Hard Gainer,\" and I have to count calories and amounts of this & that to make sure I'm eating ENOUGH. Trust me, my diet has not changed outside of \"going organic.\" I don't sit down for a meal unless some animal died to be on the damn plate. Now though it's an organic, free-range animal :-)

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JulesNoctambule
June 30, 2009 9:26 PM
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@Stephen Schenck: But they certainly make for interesting reading.

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Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!)
June 30, 2009 7:32 PM
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Apples are so bad we were not allowed to visit my grandfather (an apple farmer) during spraying season. At all. Ever. For any reason.

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joe18521
June 30, 2009 7:53 PM
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My insurance company reimburses me $200 dollars when I buy a member share of the Community Supported Agriculture program. This year, we split a share with a friend whose insurance also offers a similar benefit. We get 22 weeks of locally grown organic produce for about $25 per family after the insurance rebates.

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Aphex242
June 30, 2009 9:11 PM
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@Mr_D: Buy an organic apple sometime. Just one. You'll see.

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govkid201
July 1, 2009 12:16 AM
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@aphex242: we'll see that they are more expensive, don't last as long, create more waste in the packaging they are shipped it. in general they are drier and less sweet. believe me, I work in produce and we have to baby the organics compared to the regulars which are bigger and more flavorful.

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lastingsmilledge
July 1, 2009 4:30 AM
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@govkid201: i have a complete opposite experience than you (i also work in produce). i find that the organics last much longer, and the quality is dramatically better overall. the drawback that i see with organics is that they're usually smaller, but then again i'm not sure green peppers were meant to be the size of a football.


as for packaging, i haven't really noticed organics being more wasteful, but i'll keep an eye out.

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carlos_the_dwarf
June 30, 2009 9:16 PM
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Q: \"When Is It Worthwhile To Buy Organic?\"

A1: When you are a clueless BoBo sucker ready to be parted with your money as a religious offering to Gaia.

A2: When you are too lazy to just wash the fruit.

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Anonymous
June 30, 2009 10:20 PM
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I eat organic because the non organic stuff is commonly sprayed with a little gem called auxigro. This lovely growth enhancer/pesticide is 30 percent free glutamic acid. If I eat a bell pepper or potato that has been sprayed with this stuff I get anaphylactic shock symptoms. Oh joy. And yes I do have to avoid a lot of other stuff as free glutamic acid is a large portion of commercial food. But organic produce is a joy to eat. My kids are always asking for the good bananas -meaning the organic ones that I have to drive two hours to get :) I get most of my produce from a CSA and I love it!

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ChuckECheese
July 1, 2009 12:05 AM
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Word to the wise: If you sign up for email from Environmental Working Group/EWG, they will spam you hard, and you will have a hard time getting them to leave you alone.

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ZoeSchizzel
July 1, 2009 1:02 AM
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I never knew about apples and celery! Good to know. We haven't eaten conventional strawberries for years because of their reputation -- and since organic strawberries are so expensive, we just aren't eating strawberries.


We have definitely seen an improvement in overall health since going mostly vegetarian (with some fish and shellfish). My skin is clear, even in spots where I used to have trouble. No IBS, or cyclical digestive problems that used to plague my daughter and I at times. Eating \"right\" won't cure or prevent medical catastrophe, but it can't hurt -- so why do people ridicule those who are searching for a way to do the best they can to manage their health? Unless they're being preachy or condescending about it (which doesn't happen that often here in the burbs -- most are just middle class families trying to make reasonable choices) I think it's an admirable goal.


Plus when you eat a warm salad of organic roasted beets on organic field greens with organic feta and candied pecans (that you candied yourself) with a homemade olive oil/balasamic/mustard/thyme/honey dressing, you get to drink TWICE (or even THREE TIMES) as much beer than if you had eaten a cheeseburger. It's TRUE!

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djkatscan
July 1, 2009 6:44 AM
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I am allergic to anything with EDTA (Calcium Disoduim ETDA/disodium EDTA) and my husband found that this can be applied to the skin of fruits to reduce the appearance of bruising. I have eaten peaches for the last week with no problems, but when I ate cherries I became violently ill, and they were washed too.

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snowburnt
July 2, 2009 3:58 PM
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@Mr_D: Milk, if you don't drink a lot of milk.

I find that organic milk tastes better (and I drink skim...) and lasts FOREVER. It literally doesn't expire for 2 months on average. My wife and I take about that long to drink that much milk so we were pouring milk down the drain every week until we started buying organic.

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FrankenPC
July 2, 2009 8:56 PM
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Organic tends to taste a whole lot better. Try Safeway fruits next to organic fruits. It's a huge difference.

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JuliaJolie
July 6, 2009 10:31 PM
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@snowburnt: Or meat. Come on, people, think about what you're putting into your mouths. Eggs, meat and dairy alone are enough to make you think about how nasty and over-processed some of your food is over here.

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