![\"user-pic\"](\"/css/images/default.gif\")
I've seen spurned-customer blogs before, and this sounds like a good story for one. I'd love to read the whole story, complete with pics and docs and such, as it developed. Sounds like you're doing good work, keep it up!
I've seen spurned-customer blogs before, and this sounds like a good story for one. I'd love to read the whole story, complete with pics and docs and such, as it developed. Sounds like you're doing good work, keep it up!
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-929652-100x100.png\")
Wow...this is just absurd. Kudos to the OP for taping conversations, although it's really depressing that we as consumers have to spend that much time/energy/money getting what we deserve and have paid for.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-334332-100x100.png\")
@katstermonster: Yeah, but anymore, this is how the world works -- if you can't afford to lose it, don't give it to anyone.
OK, not to blame the OP, but I have NEVER had a computer delivered to me in \"anti-static plastic\". In fact, every computer I can think of has been delivered in static prone styrofoam or regular foam. Isn't the case of the computer itself supposed to ground any static sensitive components? And what exactly was damaged on the computer? I find it VERY hard to believe EVERYTHING on the computer was fried.
Also, if it was a Dell, can't you call up with your computer number and get a original receipt?
Sorry to be such a negative nelly, I would just like some clarification.
@AllToAll,ByMyMustard!_GitEmSteveDave: Has he had the machine professionally checked-out? Maybe the graphics card just jiggled loose during transit. I'd lift the skirt, make sure everything's where it's supposed to be, and if she still won't dance, then go after them.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-851357-100x100.png\")
@NegativeNelli_GitEmSteveDave: I also don't see how this packing method destroyed the PC. Did the OP put the PC in a static bag in the trunk of his car on the way to get it shipped?
The problem the UPS Store has is that they didn't prove that the PC worked before they packed it.
@HiPwr: Exactly. For some reason I am reminded of the episode of Seinfeld where Kramer offers to get Jerry's stereo fixed.
@TheStateOnDVD!_GitEmSteveDave: Most new components or laptops come in a static bag, true. But, just because the OP believes it was static discharge that killed his PC doesn't necessarily make it so. My money's on a flat drop from a good height. You know, just so the box hits with a flat side and doesn't show damage.
Seems like alotta the UPS guys are strong as an ox, and just about as caring with my packages....
@TheStateOnDVD!_GitEmSteveDave: I agree. I have a hard time believing that the packing job killed the laptop.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-329134-100x100.png\")
@TheStateOnDVD!_GitEmSteveDave: The ground has to *come from* somewhere - in your house, it comes from the ground plug of the outlet, which is in turn wired to a physical ground in the... ground. It travels via the power cord to your computer, and connects to the case there. If the computer is not plugged in, it is not grounded. That said, i doubt shipping peanuts killed the computer, unless they were poured INSIDE of it.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-157517-100x100.png\")
@Jakuub: Grounding the case isn't necessary, because the metal case of the computer will be constructed as a full cage around the inner machine, preventing any charge from building any potential across the sensitive components of the computer, at least in theory.
Of course, any exposed ports are fair game.
Computer equipment typically ships new in some sort of anti-static bag or overwrap, and then in the polystyrene foam. An exception might be made for a static-insensitive component (e.g. an empty chassis) but generally, this is the case.
Back on point, probably it isn't that everything is fried, but that doesn't change the fact that, for the end user, the computer doesn't work. He may not know or care (nor should he have to) why his computer doesn't work. UPS damaged it, UPS needs to make good, whatever that amounts to.
Also, please remember, not all who own or use computers are technical adepts. If my computer is b0rked, I fix it. If my wife's computer is b0rked, however, she doesn't fix it; I do. There is an unfortunate attitude amongst technical adepts to demand that all around us be technical adepts, also, and guess what? It just doesn't happen and that's tough shit.
@kc2idf: Really though, should ups have to replace the entire computer? Maybe they should just pay labor and replacement costs of the defective parts, even geek squad could probably repair the machine for less then $650.
The price sounds like it includes a monitor, has the monitor been tested separately? Why replace the monitor if there is no damage.
I agree UPS's #s are bullshit, but this guy seems to just want $$$ and is probably posting the email from that machine when he realizes a fuse was blown in his new place or something similar.
@Jakuub: IIRC, when installing computer components, I was always told to have the computer UNPLUGGED.
In all my years installing RAM, Vid Cards, HDD's, etc... I have unplugged all cords(video,ps2,usb,etc), the power, then pressed the power button to clear the caps, and finally touch the now un-energized computer on it's frame to ground myself to the computer.
Have I been doing it wrong?
@NegativeNelli_GitEmSteveDave: Yes, you have been doing it wrong.
Sure you unplug your computer, but you are still supposed to ground yourself. That's why computer-repair kits come with that little bracelet that clips to a metal surface.
@Adam Hammer: But that clip is supposed to clip to the computer case, right? I do touch, and keep touching throughout the entire process(my big hands and arms make all computer cases small) the case while working.
@ludwigk: In almost every computer I have worked on, unless it's been off for awhile, the caps hold onto a decent charge, and when pressed, you usually get at least a little spin out of the fan. I just do this to try and release any charge something maybe holding onto that might shock me and the system later on, like a cap. As for touching the case, if both mine and the cases potential was the same, wouldn't that be an equal charge, which would stop sparks? IIRC from when people work from helicopters on High tension lines, they touch the line with a probe to equal themselves with the line, which prevents them from getting shocked. As long as they are in touch with the line at one point, they can take their hand away, and no sparks:
@NegativeNelli_GitEmSteveDave: Well, not wrong per se, but depending on the device and PSU construction, pressing the power button may not actually do anything at all.
I recommend grounding yourself to the computer while its plugged in. You want ground potential and the computer's potential and your potential to all be the same. The method you have described would match your potential and the computer's potential, but they might not necessarily be ground.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-349596-100x100.png\")
@TheStateOnDVD!_GitEmSteveDave: Nope. You can also get those anti-static wrist cables that keep you grounded to the frame. I've always done what you do, though. Unplug, open the case, ground myself to the chassis and get on with my day. Never had issues in 10 years.
Not blaming the OP here, but the story seems a bit questionable (though definately plausible). How was he traveling across country to his new home? By plane, car, etc? Couldn't he of paid an extra baggage fee for the flight for his clothes if there wasn't that many, and carried on the laptop? Just seems weird that he would only choose to send a laptop and clothes.
I'm so confused.
@verucalise: Sorry, on the \"unplug\" part of this, you're wrong, unless you'll be working with the power supply; if the case isn't grounded, your anti-static strap doesn't do anything - the potential charge on your person is just also distributed to the case. The reason for unplugging when working with the PSU and power bits is so you don't kill yourself if you touch one of the 'always on' parts. I'm not trying to be an ass, just pointing out that you're risking frying your parts by unplugging your case before working.
@Jakuub:
I hate to break it to you but static electrcity is a relative thing, grounding the case to earth ground does nothing if you yourself are not grounded to earth ground. The problem is the electrical differential between you and the case, which you can reduce to nearly nil by touching an exposed metal pat of the case, and voila, no problem. Wrist straps are often more useful when your in a situation where you need to be contunuously grounded while working on the computer or other electronic part and are not really needed when just swapping parts in a careful fasion.
Also, you can risk frying your computer by plugging and unpluggin parts with the power supply plugged in, unless you can turn off the power supply while its still plugged in, which most power supplies these days do not support. This is because there are live power busses in a computer that is otherwise off, +5sb and sometimes +12sb. Most computers do have the appropriate buffering to handle hot swapping cards, so these busses may not be properly protected against surges. You may also wake the machine up by putting a card in, which may not be a good thing to do.
@kayfox: My replies were response to people using grounding straps on ungrounded cases. Regarding your claim that most power supplies don't support being turned off, I wouldn't know, I only work on my own machines, which do.
@verucalise: I've never moved anywhere and not brought my computer personally with me(years of carefully culling porn from the net is just too much to bear to lose :D ). From what I read from the article, he wanted to ship these things so he wouldn't have to hire a mover, so it seems he was driving everything else himself.
@kc2idf: I understand computer equipment in pieces is usually wrapped. But as I said, I have never had an assembled computer ship in a bag, but rather in a big ol box w/styrofoam. Heck, my Mac G3 had pieces of sheet plastic static clunged(?) to the case to prevent possible scratches, in addition to it being entombed in styrofoam.
@verucalise: Ooops, I'm assuming this is a laptop, yet it's never been stated. If it was a full desktop computer that would change the situation, which could complicate a move My bad yo.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-581631-100x100.png\")
@verucalise: I certainly hope it's not a laptop. Something you can shove in a backpack doesn't really need to go through this rigamarole to get from point A to point B.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-47390-100x100.png\")
Just to be a complete douche-waffle, I would begin a small claims court suit for my time and damages. Doesn't cost a whole lot, they have to show up or they lose, and you already have a ton of evidence.
Once the manager sees the paperwork land on his desk, they'll probably spit out the refund quicker than a pigeon over a BMW dealership does his business.
@Chumas: Agreed. The UPS Store manager is probably betting that the OP won't know or care how to get what he wants via small claims court. He's got a solid case. I hope this can be resolved another way, but I think it'd be great if the OP includes damages for his time, billed to an arbitrary hourly rate...hopefully something absurdly high.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-543146-100x100.png\")
@katstermonster: He may also be working at the assumption that he has to sue in the jurisdiction where the UPS store is located, as well.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-857746-100x100.png\")
Pack your own stuff, folks. I seriously can't stress that enough.
If it wasn't physically damaged and just \"doesn't work\", there's no way UPS is going to pay for that.
And UPS would never, ever, ever plug in your computer to make sure it's working before shipping it. EVER.
@Vanilla5:
\"pack it yourself\" doesn't work if UPS claims they have to personally pack the item according to the rules for the insurance coverage.
So, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-132151-100x100.png\")
@Vanilla5: But he said UPS needed to be the one to pack it in order to qualify for insurance.
My question, does anyone get paid out on large insurance claims? We've seen variances of this story repeated with every major carrier. Is there ever a happy ending? I ship a lot of expensive, fragile goods through ebay and always get it insured but if push comes to shove, will it actually do me any good?
@TinkishDelight: UPS does pay out larger insurance claims - with more scrutiny over the issue, of course.
But I recommend packing it yourself so you KNOW it's ok and could withstand a fall or belt burn. Learn how to pack with newspaper and things other than peanuts and learn how to do a 6-sided tape. Write the tracking number on the outside of the box on a side that the label is not on (not the bottom). I also recommend taking it to your local hub or center for shipping. This Pack & Ship Guarantee business? *sigh*
Just pack it yourself.
@Vanilla5: True, as you would need a monitor, and at least a keyboard if the computer is one that won't boot unless it detects a keyboard.
Probably a simple contact problem. That, or if using a really heavy tower cooler, could be motherboard damage. But more than likely it has nothing to do with the case not being wrapped in anti-stat, since, well.. no one does that. Anti-stat is used for components mainly. Indeed immediately jumping on UPS for the price of the entire computer is just that little bit unreasonable.
Did he opt for \"replacement cost\" insurance? I learned the hard way that \"insurance\" will pay for the cost of your item minus depreciation, unless you specifically pay for the \"replacement cost\" option. He doesn't mention which type of insurance he opted for.
Also, did he take the computer in anywhere to have it looked at? It could be loose ram or a bad power supply.
If it were me, I'd have the computer checked, so that I have it in writing that the problem IS that there is static damage. I wouldn't want to go to court and say \"Your Honor, I think it could be the static from the Styrofoam, but I can't prove that and don't know for sure...\"
I admit, I don't know how this works \"for sure\", but the few times I've filed an insurance claim, the preference was always to repair the item if possible. It never occurred to me that I should demand a brand new item instead, or a check for the cash value of what the item would be new.
I would highly recommend he get UPS to issue the \"packer's fault\" finding in writing so he has that to take to court.
Having made a few moves and having computers not work upon arrival, thats not unusual. Has the OP checked to make sure that everything is plugged in on the inside of the laptop, that nothing has come loose such as ram, cables, etc? Those things come loose rather easily then being shipped. Last time I ordered a computer, the power cord on the inside came loose from the motherboard, simple fix on my end. Really need to diagnose what is wrong with the computer other than \"doesn't work\". It may be a very easy fix to avoid a lot of time and trouble.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-390548-100x100.png\")
Like an above poster I am also curious about what doesn't work on the computer? Has the OP taken it to someone to have it looked at? I have shipped computers in the past and have received others that will not post let alone boot up. Most of the time it's because a component (memory, video card, CPU) has come loose during shipping. Most likely the hard drive and data are still intact though.
$1700 seems to be asking a bit much. What exactly is wrong with the box? Was there a 3rd part used to inspect it to see what's wrong with it?
From what I read, OP received comptuer, computer doesn't work ie doesn't turn on, OP asked for full insurance money. Scuse me for being skeptical but a single loose wire that was disconnected while shipping could cause the computer to not turn on or work.
There's just too many questions to ask here before jumping the gun and asking for money.
@Alexandru Toader: I have a Mac Pro that's worth at least $2000 resale value. Easy to get up that high depending on the box.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-257467-100x100.png\")
@Alexandru Toader: 1700 is what he would pay to get a machine with similar specifications from the manufacturer he purchased it from
We've watched this business model trickle down from health insurance to extendend warranties and now to shipping insurance.
You pay for insurance now and if/when something goes wrong, the company refuses to pay. I call it the \"you give us extra money and we keep it\" business model. Frankly, I don't understand why people are surprised when this happens.
When I had kids I increased the amount of life insurance I carried. Before they would agree to the increase, the insurance company sent a nurse to my house to give me a brief physical. When they were satisfied as to the state of my health, they wrote the policy. It is up to the insurer (in this case The UPS Store) to satisfy themselves as to the condition of the thing they are insuring before accepting the insurance payment. The fact that the insurance payment was made HAS TO mean that The UPS Store was satisfied as to the terms of the deal (that they were insuring a working computer worth around $1700). Whether or not he turned on the computer in the store, or provided the appropriate documentation is irrelevant - The UPS Store, which has final say, accepted the terms of the deal when they accepted payment.
If UPS can prove the guy mailed a broken machine then they don't have to pay. The \"how do we know you didn't drop it right before walking into the store\" argument isn't valid. First of all, it presumes guilt (\"there's a chance you might have cheated us, so we're going to assume you did\"), and second, if that was a valid concern then it's up to the store to satisfy themselves that they're not being cheated before agreeing to insure the item.
@bishophicks: Except the guy is demanding $1700 for a computer where the most likely \"damage\" is a loose cable.
On what expertise are you basing the assumption that the damage is \"most likely a loose cable?\" Have you looked at the computer yourself? Are you a professional computer repair person?
Well I am a professional repair technician and I can tell you with no degree of uncertainty that the only cables inside the overwhelming majority of laptops cannot become jostled loose by shipping.
Speaking from experience, it is FAR more likely that the computer was not packed properly and handled roughly during shipping which resulted in non-cosmetic damage to one or more of the internal parts.
IMO, the UPS store needs to pay up. As an insurer, they have the right to refuse initial insurance on an item if they believe it was damaged to begin with. The store he shipped from obviously didn't think it was damaged when he gave it to them to ship ergo, they should pay up.
I have the sneaking suspicion that a small claims court will find something similar.
UPS is OK for books and stuff, but I'd never send something remotely fragile or valuable via UPS if I could avoid it. I've had stuff that UPS shipped arrive at my place looking like it was kicked across the US instead of being trucked.
That being said, I've never had an insurance claim with Fed Ex either, so I can't say how difficult it would be to get your $1,700 bucks back from them... Know why? Because my stuff arrives undamaged with Fed Ex!
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-488475-100x100.png\")
@Radoman:
FedEx tends to handle packages better than UPS, especially if you use Express. BUT:
In order to get full value for a claim, you HAVE to put the value on it at the time of shipping. You can't go back later and say \"Oh this was worth $1400.\" If you do not put the Declared Value on the package, they are only liable for $100.
Found this out the hard way.
@Radoman: Bah. I work in an office of 225 people and all of us have a Dell desktop and monitor. Every last one was shipped to us by UPS.
Obviously, UPS is capable of successfully shipping fragile electronics. As for UPS vs. FedEx, is there any evidence FedEx's package handling is demonstrably better than UPS's? Otherwise, I would assume they are pretty much the same.
@Radoman: So how do you send anything fragile then?
In the past month or so, I seem to remember every major shipper (USPS, UPS, FedEx) being caught in a similar story on this site. Customer buys insurance, goods are damaged during shipment, shipper refuses to pay for insurance over a technicality.
The insurance industry is in dire need of a watchdog, who can kick their asses in line over abuses like this.
@Radoman:
For books, it's all about USPS Media Mail, the absolute cheapest (an slowest) way to send large amounts of heavy books or other media around the country. It only costs about $22 to ship 50 pounds.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-429538-100x100.png\")
I had something like this happen with the USPS. They needed purchase receipts, so I printed out all my Newegge receipts, gave it to them... I got a refund. Granted, USPS \"pro-rated\" the costs by funding the absolutely CHEAPEST PARTS ONLINE to equate their \"value\" to. I think they chose eBay for some.
But once I provided the receipts from where I bought them? No problems. Took a month to get the money though, and again, it was only 50% of the value due to how they pro-rate it.
Just a heads up, Liability coverage as traditionally carried by most small businesses aren't meant to cover every possible scenario (I am speaking about the liability coverage the store would carry, not the coverage on shipping the customer purchased).Most liability policies have a \"your work\" exclusion. I would think failure to properly pack a box (when that was exactly what \"your work\" was in this situation) would fall under that exclusion. This type exposures are more traditionally contemplated under a Professional type policy (but I have never heard of this type store obtaining a Professional policy).
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-681073-100x100.png\")
So the moral of this story is, make sure your stuff is \"physically broken\" when UPS shows up to inspect it... easy enough.
It isn't the lack of anti-static packing material that killed the system. Static is not some magical force that zaps computers. Static to INTERNAL parts kills systems. Static to the exterior does nothing, as the machine is surrounded by metal shielding (to prevent RF problems) that will take care of any static charge.
The OP needs to find out what the problem actually is before filing a claim. If the problem is not due to physical damage, there is no claim. Shipping insurance is insurance against physical damage, not a guarantee that it will work on arrival. There is a difference.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-887707-100x100.png\")
@sirwired: That's not quite correct. Internal parts are protected from external static ONLY if the metal box is a 100% seal. If there is a static charge developed on any of the connectors, front or back, then those can result in voltage differences passed to the internal circuitry.
If the contents requires special packaging, which a computer does, then it is the party doing the packaging that is responsible if it was improperly packaged.
@Skaperen:
Most external connectors are protected against static discharge. Serial, VGA, USB, both PS/2 connecors, sound, etc all are protected or dont expose any circuitry that would be damaged by static discharge.
Also, the box does not need to be a 100% seal, it just needs to prevent any object from passing a static charge to the inside, as generally static dosent go floating through the air.
OP followed UPS's directions then had his computer delivered damaged. UPS admitted the damage was their fault, then delayed, and is now giving OP the runaround to avoid paying.
I hope the OP sues and wins for replacement costs of the shipped items, plus any and every other incidental cost he has incurred. I don't know how many valid public complaints it will take to force UPS to stop doing this to people, but I hope it happens soon.
@twophrasebark: UPS admitted to the error in packaging it wrong. If he got full replacement insurance, then they need to pay up for a replacement computer (and they keep his old computer). Or he needs to find out the cost of repair (maybe it is dead RAM or a loose connector), and they need to pay up for that.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-406173-100x100.png\")
@Skaperen:
That part of his story is kind of vague. Supposedly a driver came by and told him it wasn't packaged properly?
That's not how UPS does it.
Asked for more information, I don't think the OP has it.
I meant \"If asked...\"
What is wrong with the computer? Why not diagnose? You might only need a new mother board or power supply. I highly doubt everything is toast. Does it turn on at all?
Saying the computer doesn't work does not help in this situation.
@Corporate_guy: If the OP goes to court with what he's presented here, he'll lose because he can't demonstrate the specific damages. Not starting does not equate to $1700 replacement cost. Take the system to be diagnosed - the diagnosis fee is likely compensable as consequential damages - and then we'll actually know what the damages is - loose cables is a pretty good bet.
Since Consumerists are usually not too computer savvy I'll explain a few things:
1) Anti-Static packaging is used for components. THe computer does not need the packaging any longer while the components are inside because the case protects them.
2) UPS should not have to pay for an entire computer. Most likely there is only one part that is damaged and that \"damage\" is most likely a loose contact. The OP should get a repair estimate from a technician send it over to UPS and have them approve that repair. It'll probably be less then $100.
3) The OP can look up his original receipt through Dell. Pricing a current computer with current parts is not fair. He needs to tell them what a computer (that's a few years old) is worth.
@dave_coder: The part is probably the power supply unless something just came loose in shipping. I've never had a computer shipped in anti-static wrapping. Chips, yes.
@dave_coder: A computer case provides added protection from static charge damage. But it is not 100%. Static damage happens due to a difference in electrical charge voltage on different parts. This charge can still happen at the connectors. I have had a couple computers damaged by static electricity while inside their still-closed cases.
OTOH, static charge is less likely to be the damage. The more likely cause is cables knocked loose in shipping.
Keep in mind that major computer makers and retailers ship whole computers with minimal, or even no, static protection, and minimal physical protection. Yet most of the time they do arrive just fine.
Last year I had a shipped computer (from a retailer) not working. At power on it beeped a code and displayed nothing (what most people might say as it would not even come on). I opened it up, unplugged every connector, board, and memory stick, and plugged them back in firmly. I closed it back up and it powered on and booted up just fine. Something was loose but it wasn't worth the trouble to find out what.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-101046-100x100.png\")
@dave_coder: How is 'pricing a current computer...' not fair?
The computer works. If you break it, you need to get me another computer that will do the same thing.
Unless you're going the other way, in which I can get a better computer now for $500 than I could a few years ago.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-483565-100x100.png\")
@doctor_cos: It's going to depend whether the insurance provides him with replacement costs (like home insurance) or just the value of the computer he sent (like car insurance). It should actually say, but I bet it's the latter.
I've emailed the consumerist about a very similar story I'm going through currently with the UPS STORE damaging an item I sold on ebay. I even included pictures! But, the consumerist never posted it or even emailed me to say thanks for your story. WTF?
I sold a rare vintage McIntosh MC2200 amplifier on ebay for $599. The buyer got a deal since it was worth $1000+ according to the audio bluebook.
It weighed 80lbs and was fairly fragile so I decided to have the UPS store pack it for the buyer. The buyer paid the UPS store directly with a credit card. He insured it for $1000 (it's actual value).
The amp arrived damaged. The buyer called the UPS store and filed the claim. He has been getting the run-around for 2 months so far. They want either of us to send them a link to the ebay sale showing what my buyer paid for the item. I assume they want this so they can pay him the $599 that he paid for the item.
We both refused to send them this info but did send them links from the audio bluebook and a site that has one of these amps for sale currently (Their price is $1200!).
It shouldn't matter what my buyer paid for the item on ebay. It should only matter what the item is worth AND what it was insured for.
I sure hope the UPS store pays out on this claim in full. I'm probably going to get a negative feedback on ebay for the transaction even though I had nothing to do with the packing or shipping of this item.
I will never use the UPS store again.
Their pack and ship promise\" is nothing but an advertising gimmick.
\"It should only matter what the item is worth AND what it was insured for.\"
I'm not sure that's how insurance works. You want to make money on the fact that it was damaged.
this happened to me as well. Moved across the country and shipped it all thru UPS. 2 boxes had things damaged. Some glass pots and picture frames smashed and the other box my tivo and external hard drive didnt work anymore. I filed a claim for the pots and such for under 100 bucks and got that no problem. No investigation or anything. I filed a 300 claim for the other box and they gave me shit for that saying it was my fault. They only wanted me to take pictures and send it to an email address. UPS is a damn joke and ive never shipped with them since. That insurance claim is another excuse to gouge you out of more money while the shippers play kickball with your box.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-104858-100x100.png\")
@bishophicks: I could not have said it better myself. Insurance used to be an educated bet against the possibility of whatever one was insuring against. It WAS a win-win for everyone when done correctly. Now it has become just another 'revenue stream' for most businesses. Why spend the time gauging your risk on the insured item/service when fighting tooth and nail against every claim is more effective and profitable?
OP should not count on the good faith of UPS or it's franchisee and should file a small claims suit.
@royceguy: I'd love to see him sue UPS in small claims if he didn't waive his right to a fair trial via a mandatory binding arbitration clause.
@royceguy: Why spend the time gauging your risk on the insured item/service when fighting tooth and nail against every claim is more effective and profitable?
Its like they learned from health insurance companies or somthing!
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-422781-100x100.png\")
I used to work for a company that insured people who were moving with major moving companies.
Most people did NOT understand that electronic items that don't work at destination were NOT covered. The logic being that simply MOVING some electronic items can cause them not to function, no matter how careful you are (i.e. inherent vice).
The only way the malfunction of electronic items was covered was if there was visible damage to the item or to the container they were shipped in.
So basically, they would say that if the box this guy shipped his computer in arrived in pristine condition, they would not be liable for the functionality of it. However, if the computer or the shipping container showed signs of abuse (crushed, dented, chipped, ripped tape, etc.) it could be be covered.
After seeing enough of these I have come to a conclusion. ALWAYS PACK YOUR OWN STUFF!!!
Can't agree with the OP here.
This sounds like OP had expensive equipment and relied on information from minimum wage employees to tell him what his rights were.
In addition, his story has some logical inconsistencies. How is UPS going to determine that they broke the computer if there is no physical damage evident? Anti-static bags? What? Even if this is somehow true, the burden is on the consumer to prove this very unlikely damage scenario.
This is extremely far fetched and is not going to be reimbursed by insurance.
@twophrasebark: UPS came out and determined the packaging caused the computer to not work. Just because that doesn't make sense (I agree, it doesn't!) doesn't mean that UPS can't decide that and have him proceed from that conclusion.
And this is *exactly* what the insurance he got is for - why would it not be reimbursed?
@coren:
That part of the story is very vague.
\"After some mixups on arranging to have a UPS driver come by and inspect the packaging, I'm finally told by UPS that the damage was caused by improper packing by the shipper (in this case, the UPS Store which is a franchise) and they can't discuss any of the claim details with me.\"
Since when do UPS drivers inspect packaging and make insurance determinations? The answer is... never.
This story has a lot of holes. If I call UPS and say \"My thing here is broken, shouldn't I get insurance reimbursement?\" and they say \"Yes, sure that's our policy\" ... well that don't mean much if I'm telling them one thing so I can get them to tell me another.
I think this story is a bunch of bologna.
\"Anti-Static packaging is used for components. THe computer does not need the packaging any longer while the components are inside because the case protects them.\"
Really now? How about the dozen exposed plugs on the back of the machine? You think that a static zapping a USB or DVI port isn't going to do any damage?
\"The OP can look up his original receipt through Dell. Pricing a current computer with current parts is not fair. He needs to tell them what a computer (that's a few years old) is worth.\"
Not really. He obviously had a customized, high-end machine. He shouldn't be forced to settle for a $400 POS that's going to die on him in a year.
If I were the OP, I'd double check what's wrong with the computer first. Like others mentioned, it could be something as simple as loose RAM or graphics card.
Now if the harddrive or other component was broken (due to rough handling) then it'd be UPS's fault and they should pay. Perhaps they would be more willing to pay for the price of the replacement parts?
Here are the steps:
1.) UPS assuming that the computer was broken prior to shipping is a non-issue and I would not even argue with them. They did not check it and you say it was working and they have no way of questioning this as they did not observe it in a non-working state before hand.
2.) Don't assume what is broken on the computer. Take it in and get a service quote at a computer repair place. You may have to pay for the repair first.
3.) Then approach UPS with the bill - if it is the whole computer then so be it or the bill may be less. In my opinion, you are also eligible for some money for downtime when you did not have a computer to use.
The above would win in small claims. I wouldn't even argue about the static peanuts, etc. as it ultimately does not matter. They packed it, they shipped it, and it was broken when you received it.
A little speculation on what could be wrong and what you can do yourself:
If you can open the chassis w.o voiding your warranty, check all cables are seated properly. Also check all ram modules are seated, together with any add-in cards - especially your graphics card - it is heavy and could have come lose from jostling of the package.
If you have absolutely no power on it, not even a fan spinning, it's probably the power supply. If you get error messages, look them up online. A hard drive can also relatively easily be damaged from being dropped - check if it is spinning up and/or making funny clicking noises. You can also try to boot from a WinXP install disk and go as far as to right before the install of XP, that'll also tell you if the machine is ok, including if the HDD can be accessed.
Otherwise I agree with other posters - have someone help you identify what the problem is so you can better justify why you think UPS broke it. After all, if it is just a component that has to be reseated, you can save yourself a lot of trouble with UPS.
If you still have some form of warranty with Dell, try contacting them and see if they can fix it. Don't tell them about UPS, though. Then, if they refuse a warranty repair because it has signs of being dropped, you will stand a lot better against UPS, with the computer manufacturer siding with you.
Good luck!
I've got a UPS account which I have used to ship heavy equipment cross-country. Once, UPS lost 3 packages, each worth about $300 each. I filed a claim, and they paid up in full. The process took some heavy phone work but my client had a check in hand about a week later.
Since the gear being shipped belonged to a client, the client had to provide proof of value and UPS issued the check directly to them.
A good rule of thumb is this:
If what you are sending is:
light & cheap - use USPS
heavy books (and totally worthless) - use USPS
heavy and cheap (worth under $500) - UPS
light and expensive/sensitive/urgent - use FedEx
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-368496-100x100.png\")
I smell SCAM, and it is not coming from UPS.
@FrugalFreak: Yes, that must be what's happening here, a scam, with backing from UPS to stick it to that UPS Store.
One suggestion is to require franchises to disclose that they are not part of the franchising company so the consumer knows that he may not have a claim against the franchising company, only against the local operation. At least the consumer could then decide whether it's worth dealing with the local store if he's moving out of the area.
If it were me, I would fly back across country go to that UPS store and get my $1700 out of that UPS store owner or break his legs!
RT
www.anon-tools.tk
The story is missing a lot of details.
First of all, it's not clear whether the computer was improperly packaged or not. A fully-assembled computer does not need to be packaged in anti-static packaging.
Second of all, it's not clear whether the computer was actually damaged in shipping. It's entirely possible, for example, the video card was simply dislodged, which wouldn't be the packer's or the shipper's fault.
If there's no sign of physical damage, it's quite likely the computer was packed and shipped properly. The insurance doesn't guarantee the computer will arrive in working condition -- at most it insures that it will be properly packaged and shipped.
When I worked as a big box store tech, we did not, and I repeat, did not use anti-static plastic on anything that wasn't a component. Laptops, desktops, they got shipped out without it. And 99.5% of them went out and came back ok. (The few that didn't were mis-shipped or had been whacked around in transit too much. Or, in one case, coated in sand, somehow.)
HOWEVER, we didn't just stick it in styrofoam chips, which is ridiculous (those things are staticy! they leave bits of styrofoam behind! ick!). We used bags of big, thick bubble wrap and appropriately-sized boxes, or foam/styrofoam pieces that were appropriately shaped to slot over the ends of the unit and to seal the laptop or desktop into the box so it wouldn't shuffle around (with the added bonus that it was away from the sides of the box on all sides, so that if UPS dropped it or punctured the box--which they did every now and again--that the unit was generally safe).
If they just shoveled his computer into a box filled with styrofoam packing peanuts, then... It's probably likely that it shuffled around in transit, got bonked around considerably, and stuff shuffled loose. Maybe static got it, but I'd say the packing job was inadequate to protect the computer regardless of the lack of anti-static bag.
There are a couple of things wrong with this post. 1.) UPS always asks for the broken item back. If they pay the insurance claim, they want the broken item. 2.) the UPS store owner shouldn't care one way or another if UPS was going to pay the claim. As a Mail and Parcel center owner, I have dealt with numerous claims, some bogus, some not.
UPS fscked up two of my computers and a $300 monitor back in 1999. The computers looked like they were kicked around, and the monitor was dead on arrival. UPS stated that they weren't packed properly despite the fact that they were packed like kids with blankets, bubble wrap, foam, etc. UPS sucks ass, and you should sue them.
Hi, I have a similar story developing right now with UPS. I ordered the Magic Android phone from Amazon. I begun tracking the shipment and 5 days later i saw that it arrived (I'm from Sofia, Bulgaria). Excited i was waiting for the UPS delivery truck. Then i received a call from a distressed woman from the local UPS informing me that there was a problem with my phone.
The UPS packaging was open and the phone was missing. Well not a good news. The problem I have with that is that some UPS freak in Germany took the phone. I read Terms from UPS - they speak about damages and loss of shipment. I do not consider this to be either of the above. It's clearly a theft from within UPS.
So I'm now speaking to some UPS internal inspectors that are not very happy about the situation. They offered to pay me 100$ but the phone was 600$ - BTW i didn't buy the insurance. (yes i know i'm stupid...) Can you guys recommend me the best course of actions from now on?
I ran into the \"you must prove functionality prior to loading\" deal with movers. This really is standard if one hopes to collect on a damage claim for electronic machinery (excepting obvious exterior physical damage).
When I made my last move, I demonstrated the functionality of my TV and my audio equipment to the movers. They tried like heck to pretend they couldn't affirm that these things were functional. We ended up calling their boss and he told them they had to note that they witnessed that the equipment worked.
Stand up for yourselves, folks.
OP here. I'm going to address some of the common issues I've seen posted.
When I moved, I flew across the country. I didn't bring a lot of 'stuff' with me, so UPS was the most economical option. I brought 4 computers with me - a fileserver, a mac mini, a laptop, and the computer in question which is a custom-built tower. The mac mini and the laptop came with me on the plane (laptop in carryon, mac mini in checked luggage). The fileserver which contains all the data I cared about keeping was shipped via UPS, hard drives removed and packed separately. I was okay with shipping because I figured I'd be without the computer for a couple days, I had backed up copies of everything I cared about keeping, and hey, it's insured if anything goes really wrong, right? It's a OpenSolaris fileserver with one large ZFS pool . The computer they damaged was primarily used as my VMware box and gaming machine. I put it together myself with parts I bought at a local store that has prices that usually beat NCIX (Canada's newegg) when shipping was factored in. I used a Dell.com quote because I couldn't put together a price quote from any other place so quickly - I was literally flying out later that day. I chose to go UPS because it was about the same price as the airline was going to charge me to bring it as excess baggage, but the airline couldn't guarantee that my excess baggage would even make it on the same flight - according to the person I talked to at the airline, it would likely take several days which would involve a trip to the airport to pick up my stuff. That means a $46 round-trip cab ride to the airport. All told, this made UPS the more economical option.
I say I suspect it was static damage because quite frankly, I don't have the tools to determine for sure what the problem was. I didn't bring any tools with me beyond a leatherman, and absolutely no spare parts to test against. I was able to move the RAM to my fileserver to test, and that seems okay, but they don't have any other components in common other than the power supply (AMD vs Intel, onboard graphics vs PCI-E, etc) and I'm not about to start buying spare parts to test it out against known-good parts. I also don't know anyone in town well enough to ask to borrow a cup of motherboard. I didn't take it in to a shop to have them inspect and/or fix it because I didn't know what UPS wanted to do - I figured they wanted to see it before anyone else messed with it. And now, I won't take it in until I have a written guarantee that UPS will reimburse me for any costs associated with repair. There are no loose cables (first thing I checked after it wouldn't turn on), I reseated the GPU, RAM, all cables, and even reseated & repasted the CPU. Had to buy some heatsink paste to do that, since I didn't bring any with me.
As for the inspection, there was a lot of confusion about what was supposed to happen. This was what I was originally told via email from the UPS Store (most communication I've had with them was via email since they didn't have my new phone #):
\"I have called UPS Canada and started a claim for you. A driver is being sent out to inspect the package and they have asked that you put everything back in the box the way it was packed when it left our store here. \"
It took them several days to get a driver out, and then there was confusion over what was going on - based on the above, I thought that meant that the driver would inspect it. I've never had a damage claim through UPS or any other carrier before, so I didn't know what to expect. I got the computer back marked \"return to sender\" the next day because someone at UPS had mistakenly thought that there was data on the drive that I needed (my fault, I had worded it badly when I spoke to them - there was data on there that I didn't want SOMEONE ELSE to have, like a copy of my tax return, some data about a software dev contract I was working on, etc - anything I cared about keeping I have safely backed up on my fileserver - the drive I sent them had been wiped after being hooked up to my fileserver). UPS had their technicians (maybe a contractor?) inspect during the 24 hour period they had possession of it and UPS themselves determined that the damage was caused by improper packing - I was told this by 2 separate 1-800-CALL-UPS staff, one of which I have a recording.
If UPS/the UPS Store would like to fix the computer and have it function with the same specs I had it at before it fried, then that's fine. Hell, if they want to take the computer, melt it down to slag and buy me a new one with the same specs, that's okay, too. But given what's happened so far, I'm not going out-of-pocket to do that.
Okay I work for this store: the computer wasn't just thrown into a vat of packing peanuts, it was wrapped in bubble wrap, and put into a fitted box with a layer of packing peanuts; this is the same way fine china is wrapped (and china doesn't get shattered??). There is no physical damage to this computer by the way, the only problem is that it won't turn on, which doesn't necessarily result from any physical damage during shipping. Also, why would we pay for an entire new computer if all that's needed is a new component or two?? If a person is so concerned about their high-priced electronics being shipped, then they should look after its travel themselves: any shipping company isn't really careful enough with these items, except when they're shipped in form-fitted packing material from the factory.
I've had many bad experiences with UPS and DHL. UPS smashed two computers I had shipped (They packed them) and one monitor (I packed)... I never saw a dime from them. Another time, I bought a dog from Texas and had to ship the dog carrier back to the breeder. Cost of shipping the carrier? $65.00 Cost of a new carrier? $50.00.
Then came DHL. I had about $800.00 worth of software shipped to me and happened to be watering my lawn the day it was delivered... as I stood in the yard with the hose, the truck drove by and threw the package in the front yard. Wow! My mother sent my kids some Christmas gifts one year and DHL made the delivery on time... to a house two blocks away. Thankfully the residents of said house brought them to me two days before Christmas.
Shipping and delivery companies suck... period. Pack your materials like Ace Ventura was going to deliver them, assume that every attempt to destroy the contents will be made, and hope for the best.
Just to clear up a few misconceptions.
UPS cannot disallow a damage claim that has been packaged by The UPS Store for the reason of \"insufficient packaging\" .
Sounds like they are denying the claim because they are disputing that it was damaged in-transit. For those of you who insist that you should always\" package it yourself\", will find that UPS is much more likely to deny that claim as they do not have the same contract with the general public
Your package did not have \"insurance\". You purchased \"declared value' from UPS through the UPS Store.
There is no third-party insurance. UPS gets more revenue selling coverage than they pay out in claims. They also act in the conflict-of interest position of claims adjuster.
The UPS Store is not responsible for this claim, No visable damage to the box or computer housing indicates that it was packaged adequately. If the computer was jarred enough to cause internal damage to the computer, that would be on UPS. UPS inspected the package and found no physical
damage to the computer, they can't then say that it was inadequately packed.
No one will simply replace your computer, on your word that it doesn't work. Get a reasonable repair estimate, and you may have a claim.
As someone who also had UPS play a round or two of rugby with electronic gear when shipping it to myself (and went through the same insurance nightmare), the only advice I can give is to 1) Pack it yourself since the stores apparently can't do much better; 2) Pony up the cash for overnight or 2nd day air. The less sorting facilities your stuff goes through, the less chance you have of opening a box and finding \"pile of computer\" instead of \"computer.\"
Also, use FedEx. The only time I ever use UPS now is when they're the only available shipping option from an e-commerce site.
i am having the same problem with u.p.s. i recently lost my mother to cancer and after some thought decided to move back to newfoundland. being a single disabled mother with an autisic child i did not have alot of money, so i sold most of my stuff just keeping the most important stuff.there were 18 small bankers boxes in total mostly containing papers ,pictures, unbreakables. in 5 boxes marked breakable was my mothers ashes and flowers from the funeral and my collection of blue mountain pottery. 70 peices in total. i now have 17 left they even broke a thick plastic vase from the funeral which i do not how is even possible.the funny thing is only things in boxes marked breakable were broken. i had a box with kitchen stuff,mixer .knives,meat slicer and in between it all was a indian figure which i did not care about and it did not break.in another box there was two glass picture frames not wrapped and again not broken. its like they saw breakable and decided to play soccer with them.they keep giving me the run around saying they are not going to do anything and its my problem. well i am not going to let this go. u.p.s has to stop doing this to people and take responiblity for their mistakes.my advice do not use u.p.s if you want your stuff to arrive in one peice something i wish i had known.
If they continue to stonewall and if you can prove they admitted their mistake in writing. I'd say take them to small claims court. Odds are they'll refer the case to their liability insurance who will just cut you a check rather than defend the suit in court. Most jurisdictions let you sue for up to $10,000 these days.
@ludwigk: Punitive Damages aren't normally awarded in a breach of contract case like this one. They're usually reserved for Tort cases where a personal injury has been suffered. They're sometimes allowed for consumers though, depending to the state's consumer protection laws, and usually requires the consumer to show that the business intentionally misrepresented information to the consumer.
@MrEvil:
Been there, done exactly this.
When I sued, I sued the UPS depot I dropped the package off and I sued the CEO (you can name multiple defendants here).
A couple of weeks later UPS' own lawyer (not the insurance company) called me to settle. I offered to settle at the cost of the package + $50 (which is what I had to pay to file). They accepted it right there on the phone and made good on it.
UPS, at least in Canada, only used their insurance company to refund the cost of the additional service they screwed up on (COD), which was about $8 or so.
GOOD LUCK! When I sued I attached ~40 pages of evidence, all the way from the clerk signed papers to receipts for the items to 3 months of transcript logs of phone conversations. I scanned and copied everything onto legal size paper so I could add a unique footer to each item so I could easily point to them in court. I expect my thoroughness is what sealed the deal.
And in my case, they only admitted to their mistake on the phone. But even if they didn't, there was no proof they collected the COD and there WAS proof UPS and I had a signed agreement that UPS would insure the package against that.
@MrEvil:
Sigh, whatever happened to just suing for the price to fix the computer? Get it checked out by a 3rd party, get a quote, then have the insurance pay for it.
Nowadays the steps have changed to:
1. broken item
2. complain to company
3. ???
4. profit!
@MrEvil: In order to take someone to small claims court, you have to sue them in their own town. Makes it a little tough as he moved across country.