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winstonthorne
June 22, 2009 4:48 PM
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Chip is a better man than I. I would demand their first born.

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7 replies
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Julius Seizure
June 22, 2009 8:47 PM
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@winstonthorne: First born? Let's hope they haven't had a chance to breed yet... and let's make sure that it never happens.

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bairdwallace
June 22, 2009 7:29 PM
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@winstonthorne: The last thing you need to do if you're getting kicked off planes for weight issues is eat someone's first born.

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greenunicorns
June 22, 2009 6:20 PM
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@winstonthorne:

I'm very much against how litigious our society is, and how much people think a hiccup in product/service quality entitles them to some kind of punitive payments because they deserve it.

That said, Southwest better effing PAY Chip for his troubles. I'm so sick of how the airline industry treats its paying customers like prisoners. Chip, yourself (and other consumers) a disservice by not DEMANDING that they reimburse you for your time and anguish.

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greenunicorns
June 22, 2009 6:21 PM
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@greenunicorns: There was supposed to be a \"you're doing\" in that last comment.

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StutiCebriones
June 22, 2009 5:33 PM
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Depending on what you plan to do with it, that could be more expensive than a second ticket.

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dragonfire81
June 22, 2009 4:49 PM
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Well I commend the OP for wanting a very reasonable response for this issue, I'm rather shocked that we have such a bad customer service story on Southwest.

Am I wrong or don't a lot of folks around these parts usually RECOMMEND Southwest over say, Delta or United?

(or am I getting Southwest mixed up with another airline?)

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4 replies
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theblackdog
June 22, 2009 4:54 PM
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@dragonfire81: Actually most folks do, and Southwest has very good service considering the reputation that \"budget\" airlines tend to have.

However, when Southwest screws up, it tends to be a big-time screw up, remember the woman who was kicked off last summer because a flight attendant thought her skirt was \"too short\"?

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Oddfool
June 22, 2009 6:38 PM
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@theblackdog: Yes, and recently they had a paint job on one or more of their planes that had, I think it was, a Sports Illustrated swimsuit model. (Could have been different magazine.)

Soon, due to Chip's experience, we'll probably hear the airline come out with their new 'widebody' plane.

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Con Seannery's G1
June 22, 2009 5:44 PM
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@theblackdog: So, a good airline, good service, you just get an occasional employee on a power trip?

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bwcbwc
June 23, 2009 9:20 PM
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@Con Seannery's G1: Probably. As I recall Southwest also has a reputation for empowering their low-level employees and backing up their decisions, making it a fairly decent place to work, and if your employees are professional, you get better customer service. But if you get one who's ignorant/on a power trip/etc, the CS experience goes downhill that much further because you are unlikely to get a reversal from supervisors or anyone else at the airport.

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theblackdog
June 22, 2009 6:06 PM
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@Con Seannery's G1: For the most part. I've been flying them at least once a year for the past decade and I have only had one flight that ended up delayed. Never had lost luggage and haven't had a bad employee experience.

Also, their rewards program actually is easy to follow and they know it's a good idea not to screw around with their rules on that.

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Segador
June 22, 2009 4:51 PM
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@dragonfire81: Southwest service has always been stellar in the past. Let's hope that's not changing.

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vladthepaler
June 22, 2009 4:49 PM
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Whether or not he should be required to buy two seats, Southwest should be consistent and objective in its policy. If there's an official test that they use, that test should be performed at the passenger's request.

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2 replies
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jenjen
June 28, 2009 4:40 AM
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@vladthepaler:
Thank you. I posted a recap of Southwest's completely unworkable policy in a thread a while back and got slapped down. Leaving this at the discretion of the gate agent is completely ridiculous especially considering how full Southwest flights can be. If the flight is full, obviously you cannot buy a second ticket for your left butt cheek, you know? They seriously need to post objective measurable weight or hip measurements on their website so you can know in advance if you will be required to buy two seats. Also so you can do it in private and not while everyone at the gate snickers at you.

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JessMeNU
June 23, 2009 12:39 AM
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@vladthepaler: This!

The airline companies are complaining about lower sells this year, and yet they let TSA & themselves make it difficult for people to travel? Is it really a surprise that people are less incline to travel by plane and more incline to go drive to their vacation spot( or spend their money on other things)?

We are all consumers, we all now what it's like to be miss treated. This SHOULD be common sense.

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Vanilla5
June 22, 2009 4:49 PM
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I think Chip is correct in asking for what he's asking. He flies with them all the time, without incident and this kind of thing costs him and his employer time and money.

It's not like he IS too big and needs a 2nd seat. He's not - some idiot just thinks they can eyeball it and tell him he is. Unacceptable.

Get on it Southwest - this is not how you treat a loyal customer.

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Chumas
June 22, 2009 4:50 PM
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I hate to say this Chip, but sometimes being polite isn't going to win you that appology.

Dial up your local news station and let em know, and mention it's featured here on the Consumerist. Next thing you know, you'll have some free advertisement and Southwest has to acknowledge they fubar'd.

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2 replies
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eb0nyknight
June 22, 2009 5:42 PM
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@Chumas: Sad but true, the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

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greyer
June 28, 2009 1:52 AM
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@eb0nyknight: Not just the squeaky wheel; the squeaky wheel being interviewed on camera by a sympathetic and justifiably appalled reporter. The threat of a public relations fiasco can do wonders, especially when the stiffed person is so average most people watching can imagine themselves or a family member being treated the same way. It'll give SW the panic-fueled momentum to retrain those people so they don't keep insulting and alienating customers.

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floraposte
June 22, 2009 4:51 PM
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I don't entirely agree with his interpretation of the policy--it doesn't preclude employees' stopping of passengers, and in fact it pretty strongly suggests that that will happen. However, I would totally agree that he's within his rights to require them to stick to their stated policy about the lowered armrests being the definitive gauge. I also don't know that carrying around an apology would be sufficient, because there's no guarantee that anybody would stay the same size; I'd think instead that the statement should back up the need to judge customers by the armrest standard any time the customer requests that final judgment.

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Red_Eye
June 22, 2009 5:30 PM
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@floraposte: There is an inherent problem with the policy though. In my book at least. I am a large guy like Chip however my problem in airline seats isn't my belly rather its my broad shoulders which due to the shrinking seats are wider than the arm rests. There needs to be a standard set for all airlines by a government agency before we are all greased and stuffed naked into planes to minimize the amount of wasted space.

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johnva
June 22, 2009 6:12 PM
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@Red_Eye: Just to play devil's advocate, why is having broad shoulders any different from having a fat belly? In both cases you're taking up someone else's space. I do agree with you that the seats are way too small and close together (believe me, it sucks being 6'1\" on a plane), and I wouldn't mind seeing some government regulation in seat pitch as they HAVE been making that smaller and smaller. But planes have been the same number of seats across for a long time; it's more just that Americans have gotten bigger on the average rather than that the seats have gotten narrower. They can't really make them wider without losing a LOT of revenue (in stark contrast to how they could easily remove a row or two of coach seats without losing much money).

So while I agree that the seats being smaller than so many people is the real root of the problem, I do think that if they are going to have this policy, it should be applied objectively rather than based on the \"reason\" you can't fit in a seat. If you can't fit side-to-side, you should buy two seats, period. Regardless of whether it's because you're fat or wide-shouldered.

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jenjen
June 28, 2009 4:43 AM
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@johnva: Leg room is also an issue. I've been on a number of flights seated next to tall - but not wide - men where they physically have no choice but to spread their legs to fit into the tiny space in front of them, so I get to spend the flight with someone's knee in my space. Not as culturally objectionable as sitting next to a fat person of course.

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Oddfool
June 22, 2009 10:08 PM
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@johnva: \"They can't really make them wider without losing a LOT of revenue (in stark contrast to how they could easily remove a row or two of coach seats without losing much money).\"

Yes, I can see that doing this for all the rows in a plane, losing 1 seat each row would cause the airlines to lose money. However, they do not have to have wider seats in all the rows. They can do this with maybe 2 or 3 rows, and charge a higher rate for those seats. The higher fee for those seats can be the cost of the lost seat divided into the remaining seats, minus a bit for the lost luggage and passenger weight. (a $300 ticket would end up costing the user, say $440 to have the wider seat) The higher ticket cost for a wider seat would still be less than forcing the passenger to purchase 2 seats, and the wider seat would be safer than straddling 2 seats.

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arymede
June 24, 2009 12:07 PM
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@Oddfool: What a fantastic idea! If only airlines would do this... oh wait, they already do!


Do you not understand the concept of business class or first class?

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johnva
June 23, 2009 2:02 AM
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@Oddfool: Here's the problem, though: that's already available to fat people...they just have to buy two seats. So what we're really talking about is just making it cheaper for them. But why should other people (who aren't fat) not have access to those few larger seats? I know a lot of people would love to pay a bit more for them.

Also, this option already exists. It's called \"first class\". It's just that it's not only a little bit more expensive, for the reason I give above. A few people are willing to pay a lot more for first class, so the airlines charge a lot more. The airlines would not want to make a \"comfortable\" coach option with seats as big as first class seats, because then the people who fly first class would consider downgrading and paying a lot less. Since first class is very profitable for the airlines, they don't want to kill off the demand for it by making a cheaper alternative.

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cluberti
June 23, 2009 11:50 PM
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@johnva: Or, perhaps we could go back to the way it used to be when I first started flying - actual, regular-person-sized seats (I'm talking 5'10\" - 6'2\" comfortable in a chair) for MORE MONEY. Egads, the horror we should actually pay for what the flight costs the airlines rather than having them cattle-car us all to try and make a buck or three. It's the reason I don't fly anymore except for business, and then I fly first-class (taller with broad shoulders == very uncomfortable unless in 1st class).

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krista
June 23, 2009 8:08 AM
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@johnva: But since Southwest doesn't have First Class, they could have a row of larger seats without losing the \"extra\" revenue. If the seats were 1-1/2 times larger, the cost could be 1-1/2 times more. I think many larger passengers, as well as some average size passengers, would be willing to pay a little more for some extra room, and they could still use the seats for regular passengers if there wasn't a demand on a particular flight.

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johnva
June 23, 2009 2:41 PM
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@krista: Southwest is a bit of an anomaly, I agree. It might work better with their business model than with most other airlines.

What I don't see happening is a section of big seats reserved for obese people. I can see a section that is a bit bigger, and costs a bit more, open to anyone. But given that those seats would be in high demand by everyone, not just the obese, they airlines would not want to limit them to fat people only. They would be giving up too lucrative a revenue stream.

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Krobar
June 22, 2009 6:54 PM
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@johnva: I think Red_Eye's point was that he could pass the test while still being annoying to others and himself since his shoulders would be past the width of the armrests.

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johnva
June 22, 2009 6:56 PM
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@Krobar: I would think that the \"test\" should be something like that you have to be able to sit in the seat with the armrests down without any part of your body crossing the imaginary plane extending upwards and downwards from the armrest.

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Anathema777
June 22, 2009 4:56 PM
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@floraposte: I think that the letter of apology would also include the actual guidelines for determining whihc passengers need two seats. That kind of back up could definitely come in handy.

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Carso
June 22, 2009 4:56 PM
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@floraposte: I agree with your interpretation of the policy as written. I have a sense that if the employees in this situation have even read it, they got to the part that empowers them to make the call, and stopped reading/caring. I also agree that while an apology can be helpful in principle, I'd prefer a letter that more clearly outlines the policy so that I could produce it if the situation arose again. Although considering how stubborn the employees were the first time around, even a formal letter from an exec might not have helped.

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Carso
June 22, 2009 4:57 PM
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@Carso: Incidentally, it is ridiculous that this gentleman (or any passenger) should need to carry the airline's own policies with him as an enforcement tool. I strongly support re-education for the involved parties.

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katstermonster
June 22, 2009 4:52 PM
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Wow, 6'1\" and a few extra pounds is big enough to get hit by this policy? That would cover at least 5 of my guy friends, just going off the top of my head.


Chip handled this beautifully, I hope he gets what he asked for!

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4 replies
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XTC46
June 22, 2009 7:40 PM
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@kaceetheconsumer: I agree, Im 6'3' and about 320, and while I sure as hell am not comfortable in the seat (my legs press into the seat in front of me) I dont overflow into my neighbors seat, arm rests sit fine, and seatbelt fits fine. I fly quite a bit and have never had trouble. I stick with united though, they have always treated me very well.

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seattlemaninblue
June 29, 2009 4:28 PM
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@xtc46 - thinksmarter on twitter: With all due respect, I hope I never get seated next to you. At 320 I have trouble believing you don't spill over those narrow coach seats.

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Carso
June 22, 2009 5:36 PM
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@katstermonster: Airline seats are getting smaller and smaller, while Americans are getting larger and larger. I wonder if that will ever be an issue...

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Con Seannery's G1
June 22, 2009 5:53 PM
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@Carso: One day we will be so compressed by the seats that black holes will form and kill us all.

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Brain.wav
June 23, 2009 1:28 PM
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@Con Seannery's G1: For the record, using 70kg as an average mass, the Schwarzchild Radius for a human is 1.04x10^-25 meters. Those will be some small seats.

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ExtraCelestial
June 22, 2009 4:54 PM
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Goodness. I can't believe no less than 3 employees stopped what they were doing to argue with this poor man but not one of them could just check to see if what they were arguing was valid?

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4 replies
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thelushie
June 23, 2009 1:55 AM
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@TinkishDelight: See, that would have been the RIGHT thing to do. Doing the right thing is soooo last century.

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Vanilla5
June 22, 2009 5:14 PM
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@TinkishDelight: There you go with your crazy logic again!

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sirwired
June 22, 2009 4:54 PM
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Maybe he could just print out the policy and take it with him when he travels? It isn't a perfect solution, but it should get the job done.

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1 replies
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eb0nyknight
June 22, 2009 5:43 PM
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@sirwired: Considering they wouldn't even look up his customer history, I doubt the would pay attention to no stinkin' piece of paper he probably typed up himself (what they would say).

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Zyzzyva100
June 22, 2009 4:59 PM
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Wow, I hope this doesn't happen to me tomorrow with southwest. I am 6'2\" and a few extra pounds (pretty much all centered in the beer gut). Otherwise I am quite muscular. I have never had a problem fitting into an airline seat. Granted it is sometimes difficult to fit my knees in, and sometimes the armrests hit the top of my thighs, but they never fail to go down because of my gut. From this picture I would say I'm a bit smaller than Chip, so I suppose we will see what happens at the airport tomorrow.

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HRHKingFridayXX
June 22, 2009 5:03 PM
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Psh. Mr Friday is 6'7\" and 350 lbs. Not once has he been ejected or asked to purchase a second seat. Though we will think twice about booking through Southwest now...

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1 replies
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kaceetheconsumer
June 22, 2009 5:39 PM
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@HRHKingFridayXX: That's my feeling. I've never had a problem with armrests going down, nor needed a belt extender, but I do feel constrained in seats. I'm fat, no question about it, but I'm not into-the-next-seat fat.

Southwest is one of the few airlines with lots of flights/destinations in and out of Austin. We will now avoid them strongly when flying because we don't need the hassle of something like this at the start of a family vacation.

Although I do wonder how it would affect things to have my preschooler and skinny husband with me...

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TedSez
June 22, 2009 5:05 PM
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Actually, this seems like a brilliant plan on the part of the airlines. Shove in more and more tiny seats that are uncomfortable for everyone, and then humiliate all the slightly heavier passengers at the gate so they'll never fly with you again and you save on gas.

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3 replies
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jenjen
June 28, 2009 4:45 AM
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@TedSez: Plus it makes the whole experience that much nicer not having to look at awful fat people.

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Munchie
June 22, 2009 11:01 PM
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@TedSez: Are you sure the brilliant plan is not to maby sell more seats on low occupancy flights?

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SavitriPleiades
June 22, 2009 5:15 PM
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Hm, most Consumerist readers applauded when United said they were doing this, naively assuming that airlines would not use this as another way to profit. [consumerist.com]

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5 replies
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Rectilinear Propagation
June 22, 2009 5:41 PM
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@SavitriPleiades: The United policy states that you'll have to buy a second ticket if you can't fit in the seat. Southwest's policy says the same thing. The OP can fit in the seat.

They're not really using the policy as a way to profit in this instance because what they did went against policy.

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Anathema777
June 22, 2009 5:32 PM
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@SavitriPleiades: Yes, consumerist readers applauded when United decided that people who take up two seats should buy two. But that's totally not what this story is about. This is about a man who did not take up two seats and was being required to buy another.

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RecordStoreToughGuy_starcommandseries.com
June 22, 2009 5:28 PM
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@SavitriPleiades: That's as may be, but it's beside the point. They didn't bother verifying whether he needed the extra seat or not; they just arbitrarily decided that he did.

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goodpete
June 22, 2009 5:28 PM
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@SavitriPleiades: I don't think anyone here has a problem with the policy of making very large customers pay for 2 seats. But this guy is not all that big. If he requires 2 seats, then so do I (6'1, 260lbs) and so do probably 20-30% of American men.

This should be an exception, not the rule. They should have to enforce that policy at most once or twice per flight. Once they start charging 10% of all fliers for 2 seats, that's just indication that their seats are too small, not that their customers are too large.

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kaceetheconsumer
June 22, 2009 5:43 PM
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@plamoni: But the United policy would make me buy two seats when I would currently pass the Southwest test. DDD boobs weigh a lot but they don't flop into the next seat. I'm fat, granted, but I can lower the armrests no problem.

The seats ARE too small. They don't accommodate 2/3 of FAA-approved car seats on width alone. We had to go to several stores to find a car seat for our daughter that would fit in an airplane seat, because the one in our car was several inches too wide, and it was average-sized.

This kind of policy is going to be used arbitrarily all the time. Lots of large but not two-seater people will face this. As soon as the public cried, \"Yeah, fatties, TAKE THAT!\" in response to the initial announcements, the airlines got the message that they could abuse anyone who isn't a stick.

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floraposte
June 22, 2009 6:25 PM
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@kaceetheconsumer: Except none of this is a recent phenomenon, including the width of airplane seats--those interiors are hardly new, after all. Southwest has been requiring oversize passengers to use two seats for some time, and I suspect Chip isn't the first person that got wrongly eyeballed.

Currently, the FAA's \"Childproof your Flight\" guidelines suggests that people should use a seat that's 16\" or narrower; that would fit into just about every seat, since 16.5\" seems to be the narrowest economy seat. Is this a new guideline? Are they approving wider ones?

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kaceetheconsumer
June 23, 2009 4:36 PM
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@floraposte: Our first car seat is 22\" wide and has the FAA approved logo on it. The second one we bought, the narrowest we could find at Target, Babies R Us, and two specialty stores, is 17\". It fits in the seat but not with the armrest down.

I had a *fun* flight from NZ to California for 14 hours with my arm in the air the whole time.

FAA approval is about safety checks. Size is a *suggestion*.

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kraftmayo
June 22, 2009 5:15 PM
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I partially agree with Chumas.

Be nice for a little while, give it another 10 business days, then become Southwest Airline's worst PR nightmare. Seems reasonable to me to give them ample time to resolve it, and then show them what happens when they treat loyal and intelligent customers like crap.

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Gaurav Dalal
June 22, 2009 5:16 PM
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So where was this policy when a plus-sized lady took over literally half my seat?

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4 replies
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Gaurav Dalal
June 22, 2009 11:01 PM
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@Gaurav Dalal: I should clarify I am talking about a 300+ lb person, who was obviously conscious of her weight issues. So what happens if all the seats are taken? Is the plus-sized person asked to leave or the person who complained of being uncomfortable get to leave?

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1234tu
June 22, 2009 5:36 PM
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@Gaurav Dalal: Could have somthing to do with the fact that about 75% of the airlines employees are plus sized ladies???

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NightSteel
June 22, 2009 5:22 PM
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@Gaurav Dalal: You should have summoned a flight attendant and pointed this out.

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sophistiKate
June 22, 2009 5:27 PM
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@NightSteel: Yes, he should publicly humiliate a real person, with real feelings because he didn't want to have to touch a yucky fat lady.

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EinhornIsAMan!
June 22, 2009 9:15 PM
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@sophistiKate: I guess you have not tact. There is a right way and a wrong way to go about complaining.

I would never say \"This fucking chonga/fat disgusting slob/lardass is dripping into my seat.\" You could summon a flight attendant and speak privately, or just be sensitive. I never seek to hurt people's feelings, but if I am polite and respectful while voicing a legitimate complaint and someone is still offended/humiliated, so be it.

And also, way to not respond directly to the person you are criticizing. Coward.

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Gann
June 22, 2009 8:59 PM
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@sophistiKate: He never said she was yucky. Inserting your own bias, perhaps?

@Gaurav Dalal: I've sat in a similar situation for a completely full 4 hour flight. 2/3 of a seat is not very comfortable. Instead of complaining, I opted to get fairly drunk. Next time I will complain instead.

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katstermonster
June 22, 2009 6:10 PM
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@sophistiKate: If someone placed their carrying baggage on my seat, I would draw attention to it. Touching is a far cry from losing half your seat to it.

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johnva
June 22, 2009 5:56 PM
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@sophistiKate: How is it \"public humiliation\" to just point out the facts that someone is oozing over into the next passenger's seat? If it's done relatively politely and discretely, then I don't see how it's \"humiliation\". If that's humiliating to people, then I would imagine going out in public is humiliating to them.

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floraposte
June 22, 2009 6:28 PM
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@johnva: How about because \"oozing\" is a mightily laden word? I've got nothing against a civilized complaint, but I don't think \"oozing\" belongs in it.

If the passenger can't fit in the seat with the armrests down, s/he's not sitting safely, and it's perfectly legitimate to point this out to the FA.

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johnva
June 22, 2009 6:36 PM
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@floraposte: I wouldn't actually say that in public in front of someone, obviously. I try not to be an asshole.

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eb0nyknight
June 22, 2009 5:45 PM
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@sophistiKate: As much as I disagree with that avenue, there is no reason (other than common decency) why he shouldn't.

People still have a right to be asses.

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Carso
June 22, 2009 5:38 PM
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@sophistiKate: I agree that public humiliation is not necessarily the best course of action - but it's not fair to ask him to sit in half a seat, either. How else could he have handled it?

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trujunglist
June 22, 2009 8:01 PM
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@Carso:

If you are worried about what the people around you might think, then you get up out of the seat, approach an attendant, and tell them what your problem is. That way it can be done so discreetly that the fat person will never even know it was you.

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Adrienne Willis
June 22, 2009 5:54 PM
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@Carso: I have no problems humiliating someone that is too fat and invading my space. I am a big girl myself (not sloppy fat but bigger than your average chick) and I never impose my size on you. I can sit next to you on a bus, train, plane, or anywhere, read the newspaper (WSJ or Times and fold it properly), do my own personal things and never once pass your personal space boundary. If I do I apologize and re-adjust.

If I am paying for a flight and you are encroaching upon my seat and making me uncomfortable I am making it known. I will be polite and ask you to stay in your seat as you are spilling into mine. If you cant comply and I have been patient and reasonable with you then the whole plane will know about my grievances.

Just because you are fat doesn't mean that everyone else should have to suffer.

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Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!)
June 22, 2009 5:18 PM
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\"The proverbial cherry on top of the whole ordeal was a backhanded apology by the final supervisor who said \"he was sorry that I was never stopped before.\" Now I was irate.\"

People who give non-apologies or backhanded apologies like that need to be bitch-slapped.

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floraposte
June 22, 2009 6:30 PM
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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): I'd like to add the \"I'm sorry if...\" and the \"I'm sorry that you...\" to that category. Nonapology apologies that suggest offense is all in the recipient's head. A pox on 'em.

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johnva
June 22, 2009 5:52 PM
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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): Unfortunately, if you bitchslap an airline employee who deserves it, even just verbally, you're a terrorist in this \"post-9/11 world\". Don't question the authorities, citizen.

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Carso
June 22, 2009 5:58 PM
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@johnva: I think you mean, \"Don't question the authorities, comrade!\"

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Carso
June 22, 2009 5:23 PM
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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): In this situation, I wouldn't necessarily rule it out. ;-)

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AirIntake
June 22, 2009 5:23 PM
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See if Air Canada or another Canadian airline travels to the locations you need to go to. It has been determined to be against the charter to require obese people to purchase a second seat, so they are required by law to get one for free.

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wrjohnston91283
June 22, 2009 5:59 PM
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@AirIntake:


Would that matter if the flight was between two US cities? Even though the airline co is Canadian, its all within US territory, so wouldn't our laws apply?

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johnva
June 22, 2009 6:00 PM
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@AirIntake: That's usually really really expensive if you're not actually going to somewhere in Canada.

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floraposte
June 22, 2009 6:31 PM
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@johnva: Isn't that cabotage? Thought that wasn't legal.

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johnva
June 22, 2009 6:34 PM
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@floraposte: Well, you can do something like get a connection in Canada (e.g., fly from New York, to Toronto, to somewhere else in the U.S.). It's just that the Canadian ticket systems will not be set up to make that easy/cheap.

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GreatWhiteNorth
June 22, 2009 5:27 PM
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Face it folks... the flight was probably overbooked and they took this opportunity to screw a passenger off the flight.

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1234tu
June 22, 2009 5:34 PM
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It seems like Southwest more or less tries to keep customers happy. This seems like yet another case of an employee who really needed to feel like a bigshot. What better way to feel like a bigshot that exerting power over someone who under other circumstances could easily tear you limb from limb? In all seriousness, the sad part is that some union rule probably protects the employees from any reprecussions. Seriously - what other industry allows basically the lowest level employee to more or less treat the customers as poorly as they see fit? Where I work there is more or less no acceptable reason for treating a client badly - and I guess the circumstances are not exactly the same - but anyone who treated a client badly because of the clients physical characteristics would probably not have the option to stick around until the end of the day.

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eb0nyknight
June 22, 2009 5:46 PM
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@1234tu: If that's true, then why did their supe and other employees, back the rude employee up?

This just sounds to weird (not that I am doubting it happened).

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Landru
June 22, 2009 6:16 PM
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@eb0nyknight: I sure that if a dozen SWA employees showed up, they would still have refused him. It sounds like the folks at Southwest stick together no-matter-what, regardless of how much first employee is wrong.


Too bad, it won't serve them well in the long run. They'll have a huge \"us vs. them\" mentality, and they will all end up sullen and mean, like employees at American Airlines.

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Biggbrother
June 22, 2009 5:59 PM
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I say call the media. If still no response from Southwest, get a lawyer.

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INsano
June 22, 2009 6:01 PM
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Flying sucks. Airlines suck. Airports and all therein suck. The entire industry was bankrupt several years ago, they can't afford bullshit like this. The whole experience feels dirty and cheap. What a long way air travel has fallen. Talk to someone over 50 about what it used to be like.

Come on bullet trains!

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johnva
June 22, 2009 6:06 PM
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@INsano: They can easily afford it. They'll just get another government bailout if they go bankrupt, like they have over and over again over the last few decades.

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Psychosocial
June 22, 2009 6:11 PM
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Chip, pray I'm on the jury buddy, you'll be a rich man.

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JGKojak
June 22, 2009 6:12 PM
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I'm 6-2 and 250- from the looks of it, they would have stopped me yet I have no trouble fitting into seating ever. I remember back when this extra seat thing started, quite a few around here were all for it-


I wasn't, and this is why-- it starts with the 1 in a million 500lb passenger, then big guys and gals who are well within healthy/normal limits are tagged.

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Cupajo
June 22, 2009 6:13 PM
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\"So, why did he suddenly get stopped at the gate and told he needed to buy a second ticket?\"

Because Southwest needs money.

Mystery solved.

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Anonymous
June 22, 2009 6:13 PM
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I'm a guy of similar dimensions to Chip who flies Southwest, and this really concerns me. Sure, flying sucks and is uncomfortable, but I don't overflow into the next seat. I went to email Southwest customer service, but their default form requests tons of contact info, and flight times. Without this I'm sure my email will be ignored. Does anyone have any thoughts on what is the best way to let Southwest know that this is generating a lot of very bad PR?

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DuncanHusky
June 22, 2009 6:33 PM
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Honestly, this is why my partner and I won't fly Southwest. We're both big guys, but we fit in airplane seats just fine, no seatbelt extenders or anything required. We don't object to their policies - it's actually pretty reasonable to mandate the comfort of every single paying passenger - but because of the possibility of random and capricious enforcement of those policies. And because of that, our money goes elsewhere.

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BustedFlush
June 22, 2009 6:46 PM
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[www.southwest.com]

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takes_so_little
June 22, 2009 6:46 PM
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@Gaurav Dalal: Clearly, the policy isn't being consistently enforced. That's sorta the point of the article, as I read it.

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Anonymous
June 22, 2009 6:49 PM
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ALL - Paula Berg here form Southwest Airlines. I was, of course, very sorry to learn that one of our Customers had a bad experience while traveling with us.

I attempted to leave a comment on Chip’s blog last Monday to a) apologize that the situation was handled poorly, and b) invite him to contact me offline. I don’t see the comment on his site today, so I must not have submitted properly. I will try again right now.

I know our Customer Relations Department will be responding to Chip, and I have asked that they please expedite his request. We value Chip’s business very much, and I am confident that our folks in CR will be able to address and resolve the matter to his satisfaction.

Paula Berg

Southwest Airlines

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nospacesinmyname
June 22, 2009 6:50 PM
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I'm just about the same size as chip and have never been stopped, i do however fill the entire seat, we've all seen mention of the harvard study done in the 50's of the train seats and 18\" being the minimum so why do these seats keep getting smaller?

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Stubtify
June 22, 2009 6:50 PM
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Why not pay per pound for travel? We do it for freight. And flying is becoming more and more like freight service than ever before. Anyone remember *meals* on flights?

Could use it as follows: Base fare is $105 + $.50 x your weight.

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pbg
June 22, 2009 6:57 PM
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ALL - Paula Berg here form Southwest Airlines. I was, of course, very sorry to learn that one of our Customers had a bad experience while traveling with us.


I attempted to leave a comment on Chip's blog last Monday to a) apologize that the situation was handled poorly, and b) invite him to contact me offline. I don't see the comment on his site today, so I must not have submitted properly. I will try again right now.


I know our Customer Relations Department will be responding to Chip, and I have asked that they please expedite his request. We value Chip's business very much, and I am confident that our folks in CR will be able to address and resolve the matter to his satisfaction.


Paula Berg
Southwest Airlines

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Cheapskate Brill
June 23, 2009 7:09 PM
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Nice to see the airline paying attention. Hopefully the supervisor will get a thorough talking to. It's one thing when a single front line employee screws up procedures, but it sounds like the supervisors think there job is to back up their staff 100% instead of actually resolving the issue.


I'd love to see an apology letter signed by the gate people. They don't even need to write it... just sign it.

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TheDude06
June 22, 2009 7:26 PM
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@pbg: It sounds like a canned line, I just want to clarify what you meant by \"resolve the matter to his satisfaction.\" He has listed specifically what it would take to resolve this to his satisfaction.

The response im expecting is for his ticket to be refunded, and thats it. I have no hope based on every airline CS story ive heard from friends/family/consumerist that there will be anything but the standard \"fuck you. what are you going to do, walk to omaha?\" attitude.

By the time we get to the gate, we have been poked,prodded,xrayed,barefoot and deprived of all reasonably priced beverages. We NEED some customer service!

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mizmoose
June 22, 2009 7:20 PM
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Although I'm a loyal Southwest flyer (though not as frequently) and always buy a 2nd seat up front, this is not the first time I've heard a story like this.

There are plenty of fat people who are still small enough to fit comfortably in one airliner seat, with or without an extender, and have both arm-rests go down (think \"pregnant shape\") with no problem.

I've of at least a dozen of these people suddenly being told, \"You must buy a 2nd seat\" in exactly this same situation, by Southwest - no check to make sure they fit, just a visual judgement and then refusal to admit they are either wrong or that they can't tell if someone needs a 2nd seat just by sight.

It's a hole in Southwest's otherwise good policy.

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WhoAsked You
June 22, 2009 7:46 PM
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I agree with most on here, OP was reserved and understanding, and more understanding than I would have been, but that's not a criticism of him, we are all different. At least he fought hard during and afterward, and kept his composure. Good for him.

If the busybodies are going to start doing this at security, or at the gate, then fine, they need a regulation size \"test seat\" for the \"fat suspects\" to sit in and establish it then, not unlike the \"stand here kid to see if you're tall enough for the ride\".

Unfortunately, that approach strips some dignity from the paid ticketholder, not sure I agree with it. Maybe if they had it curtained off like blood pressure test machines, that would be better.

In this case they have no leg to stand on, he is completely correct, they should be disciplined if not let go for 1. refusing to pull up his history at his request and I mean INSTANTLY 2. executives not responding via the avenues he tried, and I mean INSTANTLY.

Yes, he should absolutely file suit against the airline for business damages, the cost of the lost ticket, mental anguish, etc., and perhaps even consider the ADA if they were treating him as overweight, which is a handicap. His choice not to, his life, but many on here agreee, it is more than warranted, and there wouldn't be anything \"WRONG\" with him if he did, I don't care what the \"personal responsibility\" Republican hypocrites say.

None of this would be an issue if BOEING, AIRBUS and the airlines gave a damn like they should and had reserved oversized and handicap passenger seats or sections as they should. Since they don't - ding ding - available open first class seat for you, sir...

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floraposte
June 22, 2009 8:20 PM
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@WhoAsked You: Actually, the configuration of the seats within the aircraft is up to the airline that orders the plane. That's why the seats can vary so widely from airline to airline on th same aircraft.

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J.T. Kent
June 22, 2009 7:47 PM
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Southwest will probably reply soon. They are usually pretty good about these things.

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Zagroseckt
June 22, 2009 8:00 PM
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go ahead and try to buy two seats... It dosnt work

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VittoreBabasaur
June 22, 2009 8:01 PM
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You know, it's precisely these sorts of things that give the flying public, including me, a short fuse when it comes to putting up with airline shenanigans, and specifically, the treatment we tend to get from the airport and flight staff.

This might sound harsh, but if I was an airline that valued their customers, I'd fire the offending staff immediately - because they were too foolish or arrogant to not only give the customer the benefit of the doubt, but they refused to look up his record when he asked them to.

Those people are not helping passengers OR the airlines they work for...

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Daniel Parmelee
June 22, 2009 8:02 PM
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I see people twice that size getting a single seat on airlines all the time. Sounds like the gate employees were power tripping.

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EinhornIsAMan!
June 22, 2009 9:10 PM
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@Gaurav Dalal: @sophistiKate: I've had shoulder surgery on my right side. If someone were so big sitting to the right of me that they spilled over into my seat and caused me to scrunch up my shoulders or sit poorly, it would cause excruciating pain and possibly injury

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EinhornIsAMan!
June 22, 2009 9:17 PM
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The most annoying people to sit next to aren't necessarily fat, but broad shouldered. I've sat next to people with the wingspan of a 747, and thin as they may be, it still kills my shoulders

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Joe Lachiana
June 22, 2009 9:44 PM
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should have hit em with a baloney stick and hot mustard to the eyes!

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calchip
June 22, 2009 9:49 PM
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I have flown Southwest quite a lot, and if they serve the markets I'm flying, they are the airline that I fly, period.

One of the things that makes Southwest an amazing airline is that there is a tremendous amount of authority granted to Southwest employees, all the way down to the very front line. The other thing is, Southwest generally hires amazing People (as they refer to them) and so will usually back them up.

The problem arises when you have somebody, such as this gate agent, who has a power-and-control issue. It ends up screwing up the whole system, because the supervisors want to empower the front line staff, and so are reluctant to overrule them.

However, in this case, I'd wager that the supervisors and the gate agents were probably all friends, and one probably didn't want to make the others look bad.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see Southwest issue a clarifying statement to ALL its People over this issue.

And to the person who said that Southwest is doing this for money... I seriously doubt it. They are about the only airline flying that has integrity, and has never played the shady games that the other airlines play. I really think this is just a gate agent with a hard-on for power and some supervisors who didn't see fit to overrule.

I would be very, very surprised if we don't hear some sort of over-and-above compensation (even though the OP hasn't asked for it) to make up for this, and some sort of clarification issued company-wide to ensure this doesn't happen again.

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notanignoramus
June 22, 2009 10:13 PM
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If they ever pulled that on me, I might just have to sit down on the floor at the jetway door. Yep, a good old fashioned sit in still works wonders, especially when you're large enough to truly be a stumbling block to normal operations. Nobody else would get on that plane until the situation was rectified (or I got moved.)
And seriously, although I am uncomfortable in airplane seats, I pull in my shoulders, keep the arm rests down, and just deal with it. Other than the elbow issues that ANY passenger might endure, I have NEVER spilled over into an adjacent occupied seat or had contact with the passenger on either side of me.
Nobody is going to force me to pay for an extra ticket, especially if the darned airline is already overselling (and therefore, overweighting) its own aircraft.

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BytheSea
June 22, 2009 11:03 PM
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I like his organization. Shows he can follow through on a nice big lawsuit. Take em to the ropes, big fella!

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Grrrrrrr, now with two buns made of bacon.
June 22, 2009 11:04 PM
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I think Chip's demands are more than reasonable. In fact, I don't think Southwest could ask for a more reasonable customer.

The fact that he flies twice a week shouldn't have anything to do with it as the regulation should be applied uniformly to anyone whether they fly twice a week or twice a year.

The regulation in this case is specific. No seatbelt extender, arm-wrests must go down. Not \"He looks fat, make him buy two seats.\" It sounds like more power-mad airline employees. Perhaps these Southwest employees should get together with that flight attendant who goes around badgering people about their in-flight cola-drinking habits.

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Deborah Aldridge
June 23, 2009 12:44 AM
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Sounds to me like they needed his seat, or they overbooked, and had to find an excuse to bump him. I'd ask if the flight was full when it took off.

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chgoeditor
June 23, 2009 1:33 AM
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Post your problem on Flyertalk.com on the WN board. There are several Southwest employees who post there as authorized representatives of the airline. They seem to be very responsive toward customer complaints, elevating problems to people who can deal with them, etc.

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John Davis
June 23, 2009 1:36 AM
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Thats pretty messed up dude. I have a feeling this guy is going to have bottom feeding, blood sucking attorneys lined up around the block looking to jump on that gravy train!

RT
www.anon-tools.tk

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thelushie
June 23, 2009 1:52 AM
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@Adrienne Willis: And if I were on that flight, I would tell you to shut up, grow up, and sit your fat ass down. No one cares.

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MrEvil
June 23, 2009 4:56 AM
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I hear ya Chip. I'm 6'4\" and have some extra poundage on me (and you bear a freakish resemblance to myself) and I hate being told where I can and can't sit. I've been shedding the pounds quite regularly the past 4 months, but it still sucks we get pulled from flights. I'm not that wide I can sit in alot of small chairs without issue.

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Anonymous
June 23, 2009 5:09 AM
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Looks like Southwest has tried to contact the OP several times and he hasn't responded to them. They have had this policy for a long time, and if you heard about a customer who was squeezed between two huge guys, you'd be on their side too. I think the truth lies somewhere in between and we obviously don't have the airline's side yet.

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chipware
June 23, 2009 4:47 PM
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@VilhelmDuge: They have not tried to contact me. Paula Berg said she tried to post comments to my blog, but I have yet to see any, and 30 other people didn't have a problem so I don't know what is going on there.

Paula did approach me on twitter and said a response would be forthcoming. I don't know if I consider twitter to be \"official\" communication when I have provided my email address and phone number to multiple Southwest entry points. Either way, I am patient and will let their internal processes play out.

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goldenmonkey
June 23, 2009 5:25 AM
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The last time we flew back from Sweden the woman at the desk asked my husband if I would like an entire row of seats. She said it in Swedish and probably didn't mean me to hear it, but he turns to me and says \"She wants to know if you'd like an entire row of seats?\" To which I of course said yes I would. Who wouldn't want the entire row at no extra cost? I'm not the most svelte person, especially not now, but then I wasn't morbidly obese either. 5'8\" and 160 pounds. I had no problem fitting into my economy class seat. Indeed, there was room to spare. And when I got on the plane the whole row was filled, so every now and then I wonder - was that Swedish ticket agent making a fat joke?

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Adrienne Willis
June 23, 2009 12:39 PM
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@thelushie: now why would you call me names? Because I asked the person to not encroach into my seat and they didn't comply that means I should sit there and be miserable? How do I need to grow up? Because I take personal responsibility for my size and never impose it on anyone else that warrants a shut up from you? When you explain to me how me all of the above then I may heed your advice, until then keep your mouth shut.

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Rectilinear Propagation
June 23, 2009 1:21 PM
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Because I asked the person to not encroach into my seat and they didn't comply that means I should sit there and be miserable?

@Adrienne Willis: No, but you don't have to let \"the whole plane...know about my grievances\" either.

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Anonymous
June 23, 2009 1:56 PM
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The only thing that Southwest did wrong was to not be consistent with their policy. As someone that also flies regularly can attest, it sucks to sit next to a big person. Chip isn't gigantic and could probably get the seat belt fastened but I guarantee you he is wider than the seat at the top which means he is going to be encroaching on someone elses seat that THEY paid for. I think the test should be width. If you are wider on any part of your body than seat width, you buy two seats. Having said all this, SW should have a standard policy. Getting to fly everyday without indecent, only to be nabbed one day, is frustrating.

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Adrienne Willis
June 23, 2009 2:56 PM
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@Rectilinear Propagation: excuse my non-clarification, I dont literally mean stand up and air it out, but a flight attendant will be called over and people will turn around and rubber neck which means they will hear my grievances.

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Forkboy2
June 23, 2009 4:20 PM
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I have no problem with SW's policy. But if they are going to enforce it, they need to do so consistently. I fly every week and every flight has at least 1 or 2 passengers MUCH larger than chip that squeeze into a single seat.

I say put a scale next to the boarding gate and come up with a height to weight chart to define who has to pay for a second ticket. That's the only fair way to enforce this type of policy.

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Anonymous
June 23, 2009 4:57 PM
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Chip, kudos to you for being the \"bigger man\", pun intended. So many times, when a person feels they have been wronged, they turn to the media or a lawyer for so called justice. I am an employee for Southwest and I cannot officially speak for the company. However, I apologize for the experience you described. From your description, you did all that you should have done and the Las Vegas staff did not. They should have had you take a seat on the aircraft to visually confirm if the armrests would remain down without you extending into the second seat.

Unfortunately, we are all just human beings and as such, we are prone to making mistakes. I hope that Southwest takes the time as they normally do and contact you soon. Thank you for choosing Southwest and I hope to see you on a flight in the future.

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chipware
June 24, 2009 6:20 PM
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Southwest sent me an email this morning. I now consider the issue resolved. I've posted it on my blog at [blog.paswater.com]

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jp
June 26, 2009 8:12 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but OP said he flies out of Vegas 2 times a week. Thats 4 times a month. Out of the same airport same airline. I did this out of Phoenix for 6 months and I actually knew the various gate agents by name. They even recognized me and would say things like, \"missed seeing you last week\". My point is, if he is flying that often out of the same airport, with the same gate agents that are stationed (home based) there, you would have thought some agents would have been around that could have recognized him from past encounters and helped out here.

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rwalford79
June 26, 2009 11:34 PM
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Ive personally had some of the best service in the skies, and at an airport by Southwest, so this is just really disgusting that they would treat a passanger that way.


Formerly a Customer Service Agent for one of the former leading airlines in the world, this is just upsetting that Southwest would treat their customers worse then my old company ever had.


I personally would not be as calm as Chip, Id be infuriated and be turning this into the media, likely right after I speak with EVERY supervisor, and EVERY Gate Agent, and EVERY Customer Service Agent, at the airport.

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