25 replies

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GildaKorn

June 24, 2009 4:32 PM

About the inexpensive paper-book alternatives: Those $7-8 books just plain suck for reading. They're usually small enough to fit in a coat pocket, but the binding is cheaply done and the text is printed up to 5mm away from the binding, forcing you to either have to rotate the book around throughout the read, or destroy the binding by opening the book further.

Well bound paperback books seem to cost upwards of $12. Of course, I'm talking about new book pricing here.

Anyway, ya don't ever have to worry about crappy binding and print jobs again on the Kindle. Unless they manage to deliberately bork that up, anyway, but there'd be no incentive to do so, since it wouldn't cost them any less to have smaller print margins.

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Andrew Norton

June 24, 2009 3:18 PM

@Radi0logy: Yeah, I don't get the big deal about the Kindle. I was reading ebooks and carrying a dozen around with me on my Palm Vx 5+ years ago. Will I buy a kindle? hell no!

I have a bunch of textbooks around; journalism, law, English language, Government/politics. I don't think I've paid more than $3.50 for any of them. Goodwill has been a great source (especially the one in Macon, which has a separate bookstore, and gets a lot of their books from Mercer students).

I like ebooks for reading novels, but then again, for more 'serious' reading, I prefer dead-tree versions. It's easier to cross-reference, and check multiples at once.

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Project_J187

June 23, 2009 9:24 PM

@Radi0logy: I will just tackle the money aspect.

Kindle = $350
50 E-books = $500
50 \"real\" books = $1000

Read a lot and it pays for itself and then starts to save you money. Convenience, carrying around a bunch of books conveniently, ease of access to a store are all really secondary reasons to a power reader.

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FigNinja

June 24, 2009 5:54 PM

@Project_J187:

I will just tackle the money aspect.
Kindle = $350
50 E-books = $500
50 \"real\" books = $1000
Read a lot and it pays for itself and then starts to save you money. Convenience, carrying around a bunch of books conveniently, ease of access to a store are all really secondary reasons to a power reader.

Well, not everyone buys hardcover all the time and you can frequently find them for less than $20 but even if you're reading back catalog stuff, it still saves you a couple bucks usually.

What saves me money is the free samples. They give you a chapter or so for free that you can read on the device at your convenience. If you like it, click on the link at the end and you'll be reading the rest of it in less than a minute. Don't like it? Don't buy it. I venture to say most folks don't read a whole chapter at the book store before they buy something. I used to buy a lot of books I didn't like enough to finish. Since I did buy a lot of new release hardcovers at $15-$20 per, the Kindle paid for itself pretty quickly with just this feature. I didn't buy it to save money. I bought it for the convenience. I was pleasantly surprised that it saved me money, too.

I don't ever want to go back to paper books. Reading on a device is so much more comfortable. Yeah, it's overpriced for most people. Hard to justify if you're not an avid reader. New tech is often pricey. Eink isn't cheap. It'll get cheaper or another competing screen technology will replace it. Devices will get cheaper. Screens will get better on multifunction devices and more people will be reading on their phones, tablets, netbooks, etc. It's early adopter times. Most folks probably don't remember how overpriced the early mp3 players were and they only held a couple CDs worth of music.

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JulesNoctambule

June 24, 2009 11:45 AM

@Project_J187: '50 \"real\" books = $1000'

Does your city lack thrift stores?

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Radi0logy

June 24, 2009 3:22 AM

@Project_J187: Wow. A lot of responses. Can't even begin to tackle all of them, and of course people are entitled to their opinions on it. If they love it and think it is worth it, great, I wouldn't begrudge you.

But I wanted to mention a few things - First of all, has anyone ever heard of a public library? Seriously? Throwing around huge dollar figures and then saying real books cost $20 each is just sticking your head in the sand. Libraries have a much broader selection than Amazon (note I said broad, not better), and of course it is all free.

Secondly, hasn't anyone here ever used a book on tape or on CD? (also free at the library...) All the complaints about being unable to see the print or having to hold a baby seem a lot easier and cheaper to resolve than spending a grand on a little specifically designed tool.

I'll say again, I just don't get it... But I really appreciate all the input on it, have brought to my attention a number of good uses for it I hadn't thought of -- nothing worth a grand, mind you ;) But intriguing nonetheless.

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formergr

June 24, 2009 2:16 PM

@Radi0logy: I live in a city with a really cruddy public library system. The branch in my neighborhood is tiny, so you pretty much have to request any book in advance to get it. So no fun browsing :(

The online request system isn't badly done, but their hours aren't great, so it's difficult for me to find time to go pick up any books I requested to check them out.

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June 24, 2009 2:06 PM

@Radi0logy: \"All the complaints about being unable to see the print or having to hold a baby seem a lot easier and cheaper to resolve than spending a grand on a little specifically designed tool.\"

I HATE listening to books on tape. LOATHE it. It takes FOREVER. I can read a 400-page pulp novel in 2, 2 1/2 hours. A good novel, 300 pages in 2 hours. (Something hard and dense, 200 pages in 2 hours.) 400 pages read out loud to you takes AGES and ages and ages. (Honestly, once I learned to read on my own, that was pretty much the end of me having my parents read to me, because I could go so much faster reading to myself.)

And YOU try and take a newborn to the library. :) Mine's 4 weeks old now and we've left the house three times (other than to go to the pediatrician). And we can only shop at places where I can take the cart to my car, or where I can carry things one handed AND operate the keys to the car with that hand. I could manage only a couple books at the library, and only if Himself didn't decide to start screaming his head off -- at which point I'm sure people would complain to the Consumerist about the lactating bitch at the library with her infant who is SO RUDE she actually brought a BABY to the LIBRARY and he made NOISE.

Like I said, I don't intend on spending a bunch of money on a Kindle at this time. But borrowing my mom's while she was visiting when I was breastfeeding WAS super-convenient. (I'm generally sticking with paperbacks of less than 500 pages -- can hold those one-handed -- and with the Daily Show on my laptop.)

(Also, my mother's READ the entire public library in her town. What makes you think that just because someone owns a Kindle, they don't also make use of the public library?)

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Sanveann

June 23, 2009 7:26 PM

@Radi0logy: My husband got me a Kindle 2 for Mother's Day (I guess as a way of saying, \"Thank you for bringing my two sons into the world sans pain medication\"), and I LOVE it! Here's why:

For one, I love to read, and we're pretty much OUT of space for books!

Second, you can find just about any book in the public domain online for free somewhere. You can't do that with regular books -- Barnes & Noble isn't giving away copies of Shakespeare or Austen.

Third, I like to read a lot while I travel, but I do NOT like toting along half a dozen books, or paying top dollar for cruddy books in airport bookstores. I remember when we went on our honeymoon, my husband was reading the Harry Potter books. Several of them were only out in hardcover at that point, and we ended up lugging them across the Atlantic and all over Scotland. :P

Fourth, it's very lightweight. I can easily hold it with one hand while, say, nursing the baby. I could NOT read \"Vanity Fair\" (which I recently finished on the Kindle) one-handed -- it's a 900-page book.

Fifth, it's got some cool features, like the text-to-speech and the ability to adjust text size. The TTS is really handy if, for example, you have to go to work but you were at a really exciting part in your book and can't stand to put it down :)

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@Radi0logy: My mom has one. She and my dad are currently cross-continentally married, so she flies constantly and she can burn through a 400-page book in a couple hours. This lets her carry a dozen books in the space of a single book and get new ones whenever she has wifi.

My mother reads a lot of popular fiction -- Janet Evanovich, Jodi Piccoult, that kind of thing -- and when she buys them hardcover, she reads them once (in two hours) and then passes them on to someone else or donates them to the library ANYWAY, so for her, the DRM cost for the Kindle isn't a big deal; she only WANTS to read them once.

I have also taught her how to download free ones so now she's doing that, too. :)

She came to take care of me after the baby arrived, and she spent a week sitting up nights with the baby in one hand and the Kindle in the other with her cute little Kindle light on. It is, in fact, way easier to turn pages one-handed on the Kindle, and it kept her place if she had to jump up and change a diaper or whatever (no hunting for a bookmark or flipping the book over open or whatever).

I played with hers and I don't think it's really for me -- I mostly buy books I intend to read repeatedly, and when I annotate, I like to annotate with a pen or highlighter, since I retain better when I can make the physical motions -- but it was really convenient for breastfeeding, easy to hold and turn pages in one hand, easy to put down at a moment's notice. I expect the device will get to the point where I'll find it more appealing (and that point would be \"way cheaper\" and with more features that appeal to me, though I don't know what those will be).

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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): @jesspark: My bad, whispernet, not wifi. It's not my toy. :)

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Megladon

June 23, 2009 3:46 PM

@Radi0logy:

I was going to buy one for my wife. We were going to move to asia, and with her able to read a 300 page book in less then 2 days, i figured it would be an easy way for her to get books and other things to read while we were overseas. Things came up that held us up from buying it and then the news came out that it costs more for books on this then printed books... Yes books that only cost royaltys to sell cost more then books that need to be printed, bound, transported, warehoused, and put on a shelf for resale... go figure. After that it wasnt worth buying it at even 1/4th the price.

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KarlB

June 24, 2009 8:02 PM

@Megladon:
> and then the news came out that it costs more for books on this then printed books...

Um... wrong. Try getting your \"news\" somewhere else.

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ionerox

June 23, 2009 3:37 PM

@Radi0logy: I don't own a Kindle, but I use the Kindle software on my iPhone to read books regularly.

I don't have a ton of room, and I love to read- so buying electronic books means I don't have to clean out my bookshelves so often (I buy physical copies of books I'll read over and over, or for certain authors). It's super convenient (downloading a book takes seconds).

I suppose I could just use the library, but my work hours & library hours don't mesh, and I have a nack for keeping books too long and having to pay too many late fees.

Sure, I wish the books were slightly cheaper (considering there is no physical medium to ship or store). But I just use my cash card rewards points to buy Amazon gift cards and I spend very little in the long run on my Kindle books.

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Cortina

June 23, 2009 3:31 PM

@Radi0logy: My mother bought one. She hadn't been able to read anything more than an US Weekly for two years because her eyesight had degraded to the point that nothing short of holding the book an inch or two from her eyes would resolve the text.

Before her eyesight went bad, she routinely read 15 or 20 books a month.

The Kindle has given her back one of her greatest joys, reading. I know it's easy to make fun of, but it has made an enormous difference in a 65 year old woman's quality of life.

It made my mama happy. I really can't think of any higher praise I can give it.

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HogwartsAlum

June 23, 2009 5:07 PM

@Cortina:

THAT is a great reason to get one.

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tinky XIII

June 23, 2009 3:50 PM

@Cortina: If it makes your mama happy, then all's right with the world.

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kateblack

June 23, 2009 3:42 PM

@Cortina: That's beautiful. And a good reason for authors and publishers to not be jerks about the text to speech capacity.

I make fun of the Kindle b/c I don't think it makes sense for MOST consumers. $350-400 for a device + $10/per book, when I can buy used books for $2-7-ish AND resell them? Makes no sense. As a tool to help the elderly and/or disabled, it does seem pretty great.

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jesspark

June 23, 2009 3:50 PM

@kateblack: I've never paid more than seven bucks and change for a book on Amazon (in fact, quite a few of them have been free, thanks to various promotions), and many of my ebooks are public-domain titles, meaning they're free of cost AND free of DRM. So, you're not automatically paying ten bucks per book.

As to the price of the device itself, keep in mind that that also includes Whispernet for those who live in an area with access to it. I can go online whenever I want without having to search for a wifi hotspot if I feel like downloading a new book or using the basic web browser, and that's free -- or, rather, it's built into the price of the Kindle. That may not be worth it to some people, but it's worth the extra cash to me!

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Amish Undercover

June 23, 2009 3:31 PM

@Radi0logy: I want to get one of the larger devices to carry PDFs. i'm not considering $450 (for the large screen size) but would consider it when the price dropped to $200 or $250 in a few years. That said, I'm not biased towards the kindle... any big screen reader will do provided it has been reviewed thoroughly by consumers for problems.

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jesspark

June 23, 2009 3:25 PM

@Radi0logy: That's fair -- I don't get why \"liking it\" seems to equate to \"fascinated with it,\" at least here on Consumerist. ;) I like mine, but the only reason I stare at it for hours on end is because I'm, you know, READING.

My wonderful book-loving parents gave me a Kindle this past Christmas; they each have a Kindle, as well, and we share an account on Amazon so we can all read the same books without paying for them more than once or having to wait until someone else is done reading to start. I love the fact that I can carry a good deal of my library with me wherever I go (a large portion of which are public-domain books legally downloaded for free from sites other than Amazon -- so there's no DRM, and did I mention the \"free\" part?), not buying a physical copy of a book cuts down on clutter in my little condo, and being able to go online to buy a new book or access the web with a very basic browser whenever I want is pretty convenient. Those are some of the main reasons that I like my Kindle.

Why did people love the iPod so much shortly after it came out, and continue to love it today? The iPod was expensive, and buying music from the iTMS involved the dreaded DRM at first, too... although you also had the option to put your own, DRM-less music on it. The Kindle is very similar, but a lot of people here on Consumerist seem to have a hate-boner for it without ever having used or even seen one.

Can you explain that? Are the people that rip on the Kindle the same people who sneer at the iPod? Or do they just not like reading that much?

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Nicole

June 23, 2009 3:37 PM

@jesspark: You can't put your own files on a kindle, though, can you?

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jesspark

June 23, 2009 3:45 PM

@Nicole: What Karita said. :)

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Karita

June 23, 2009 3:42 PM

@Nicole: Yes, you can. I don't know if you can do it on the iPhone, but with the Kindle, you can do it via your computer or via the Amazon Whispernet.

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Chris Walters

June 23, 2009 3:22 PM

@Radi0logy: I'm fascinated by how many people always say they don't get it. I see that statement over and over, and yet it seems like such a simple decision to me. Do you read a lot of books? Want to have a big collection that you take everywhere that doesn't require a bookshelf? You'd probably appreciate an ebook reader then.

It's pretty much the same decision process as moving from individual CDs and a home stereo to a portable MP3 player.

My guess is since reading (usually) takes longer per piece than listening to a song, and since many people only read at home, a lot of people don't feel the comparison applies. But if you read multiple books at once, or like to carry books and magazines and newspapers with you at all times, it makes more sense.

Maybe the Kindle doesn't make sense, but the idea behind it makes sense.

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HogwartsAlum

June 23, 2009 5:06 PM

@Chris Walters:

I do all those things and I don't want one. What if I break it or someone steals it?

Also, \"Publishers choose whether they apply DRM to their content and thus determine how many copies of each title can be downloaded to different Kindle devices at the same time.\"
I'm going to remember to ask about this if my book gets published.

(WHEN! WHEN! NOT IF!)

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doctor_cos wants you to remain calm

@Chris Walters:

It's pretty much the same decision process as moving from individual CDs and a home stereo to a portable MP3 player.

Not true. I have a portable MP3 player, fed from individual CDs I still have.
Can I get all the books I own onto the Kindle? For free? You see, I have already paid for them once, and don't see paying again. Kinda like with the CDs.

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HogwartsAlum

June 23, 2009 6:46 PM

@doctor_cos:

Ha! I feel the same way. Which is why I like to buy CDs as opposed to downloading music (which I do sometimes, and then back it up).

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theSuperman

June 23, 2009 3:15 PM

@Radi0logy: I think it seems kind of cool to have access to a bunch of books in one device. I don't own one, but if the price goes down to maybe around 100 bucks, then I would go out and get it.

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Jennifer Morris

June 23, 2009 3:14 PM

@Radi0logy: A co-worker of mine has one of these. According to her, the text is easier to read than an actual book, it's easier for her to use while on a treadmill, and it's generally more convenient than carry a bunch of books around. She's a pretty avid reader, so I guess I get why it's useful for her. Can't say I'm running out to get one any time soon though.

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ezacharyk

June 23, 2009 3:14 PM

@Radi0logy: I don't own one, but a I know several people who do. They like being able to carry a lot of books with them on the go. Say in the several hundreds, something not physically possible with real books.

There is also the ability to bookmark and make notes without actually ruining the book itself.

I don't think I will ever buy one, but I like the idea of being able to have several books on hand in case I want to read something different.

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takes_so_little

June 23, 2009 3:09 PM

Since you do not really own DRM'd material (it can be revoked by the publisher), let's call it what it is: rental. Set up the terms of the rental and state them publicly.

I don't have these problems with, say, books. I buy it, I own it, and if I treat it well, I always will.

1 replies

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Corydon

June 23, 2009 8:57 PM

@takes_so_little: Besides this, I have a real problem with not being able to lend/give/resell my used books. Borrowing and lending books is one of those things that makes you a real friend and for Amazon to be crippling that will probably keep me from buying a Kindle until that policy changes.

The whole thing about not being able to transfer books around doesn't bug as much as DRMed music does, so long as the upgrade process for the Kindle is easy enough (which it sounds like). I like that it pretty much completely bypasses the PC for storage purposes and uses Whispernet exclusively.

But without actually \"owning\" the books I \"buy\" (which means the ability to transfer the license to another account freely or for a fee), I'll stick with the old-fashioned kind.

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b612markt

June 23, 2009 3:11 PM

I'm as much of a gadget freak as anyone else, but this is ridiculous. Thanks, but no thanks, Amazon.

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dfx

June 23, 2009 3:19 PM

@b612markt: This is a surprise to whom? I know this may seem offensive, but smart people get their books off piratebay, read them on their netbooks/etc. Guess what, you can actually find more relevant books this way, they download in seconds, and you don't have DRM. How can you do this at a beach for example? Get a device of your choosing to read with and charge it using solar and some kind of ebook reader program. Cheaper than kindle..

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takes_so_little

June 23, 2009 4:01 PM

@dfx: \"I know this may seem offensive, but thieves get their books off piratebay...\"

There, fixed it for you.

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TechnoDestructo

June 24, 2009 12:18 AM

@takes_so_little:

They're pretty much synonymous these days, given the general trend in how companies treat paying customers.

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AlexJP

June 23, 2009 3:13 PM

This is like paying $10 for gasoline, and not being told how much gasoline you received.

It is dishonest to deliberately withhold facts about a product's capacity, limits or measures. And to do so for an artificial and arbitrary limit is flagrantly dishonest.

If this nonsense happened to me, I would think nothing of slapping Amazon with a Massachusetts chapter 93A demand letter. It is an unfair and deceptive act if there ever was one.

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Tiber

June 23, 2009 4:00 PM

@AlexJP: More than dishonest, how is this not illegal? We already found out about Comcast's previously hidden caps/throttling, NetFlix's mysterious slow delivery for heavy users, and this, and that's just the tip of the iceberg I'm sure. What is it going to take before Congress says enough is enough? Even the most die-hard libertarian would agree that capitalism requires transparency to function properly.

Could any experts in the subject weigh in on this?

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RvLeshrac

June 23, 2009 6:47 PM

@Tiber:
@AlexJP:

Most libertarians wouldn't agree, at least from what I understand of their talking points. Libertarians are for complete freedom from government regulation, and any law that restricts how a company does business is 'regulation'.

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MauriceCallidice

June 23, 2009 7:17 PM

@RvLeshrac: Depends on the flavor of \"libertarian.\" There are libertarians who believe that one of the (few) legitimate roles of government is to intervene in cases of fraud. Others may disagree.

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AlexJP

June 23, 2009 4:10 PM

@Tiber: I know for a fact that the most die-hard libertarians would agree.

As far as it being illegal, one may be able to employ a state's weight-and-measures law against them. That is a little out of my depth though; I would just fire off a 93A letter calling the scenario unfair and deceptive.

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takes_so_little

June 23, 2009 3:16 PM

@AlexJP: \"This is like paying $10 for gasoline, and not being told how much gasoline you received.\"

That analogy only holds if the gas station has the power to, at some unforseen future date, revoke your right to your gas.

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AlexJP

June 23, 2009 3:22 PM

@takes_so_little: I don't agree that my analogy is inappropriate. But even if we accept that DRM is good, wholesome, and welcome, we still are faced with the same issue: The quantity of Kindle devices that can load the content is never disclosed.

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takes_so_little

June 23, 2009 3:29 PM

@AlexJP: I think you misunderstood. I'm saying you were too kind to DRM in your analogy. Your point was good, but you forgot that DRM purveyors can take the product away from you after you've \"bought\" it.

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Blueskylaw

June 23, 2009 3:16 PM

What is this world coming to when you give control over a simple thing such as reading to a corporation?
Then for some reason people complain that their rights are being trampled by a corporations desire to make money.

3 replies

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Brian James Schend

June 24, 2009 3:44 AM

@Blueskylaw: Umm, corporations have controlled access to books for a long time. It's just a different corporation now.

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JulesNoctambule

June 24, 2009 11:48 AM

@Brian James Schend: Except that Penguin or Random House don't confiscate your books out of nowhere or prevent them from being resold.

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FigNinja

June 24, 2009 9:27 PM

@JulesNoctambule:

Actually they are the ones that get to choose to have DRM, choose to have TTS, choose how many licenses you get. They can also choose to pull access to the book.

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ExtraCelestial

June 23, 2009 3:32 PM

@Blueskylaw: I'm not in agreement with the situation but that's not remotely what's happening. \"Corporations\" own the rights to creative material produced by their clients. This has nothing to do with some right to read. You can still read?! If you want 100% control over creative material, write a book. Stop being hysterical.

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ezacharyk

June 23, 2009 3:16 PM

I think it is very important that all DRM, whether on ebooks, software, games, movies etc, should be disclosed before purchase. This is a valuable consumer tool and will build better consumer relations in the long run.

People really do like it when companies are upfront about about their limitations. They may not like what is revealed, but they are happier knowing before hand than to find out afterward.

2 replies

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FigNinja

June 24, 2009 9:30 PM

@ezacharyk:

I agree. Amazon is pretty clear about most restrictions of the DRM if people bother to read the information provided on the site. The thing they are not clear about is how many licenses you get. If it were always six, then that would be fine. They give that number in the general documentation. If it isn't, they have absolutely no excuse for not putting that clearly on the project page.

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Rectilinear Propagation

June 23, 2009 4:15 PM

I think it is very important that all DRM, whether on ebooks, software, games, movies etc, should be disclosed before purchase.

@ezacharyk: I agree, especially since we're talking about things that you can't return once opened/downloaded.

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Zagroseckt

June 23, 2009 3:25 PM

Considering i was going to save and save and save for a kindle for the Text to speech (i am visually impaired) the no TTS on some books killed that. i now have a netbook and continue the task of. (for good books) 1 get used copy of book 2 hit IRC download same book in TXT format (saves time doing the OCR thing) 3. get netbook to read text on the go.

the netbook was cheep and with the screen closed / powerd off it lasts most of a day reading straight. about 5 hrs no wifi 2:30 with wifi/screen on full bright. it's only a 3cell battery.

best part is. books i bother getting are 100% text all i need to know is auther's name and the tytle i want.

I still think the kindel is pretty cool just wont buy one untill thees isues are taken care of.

NFB RULZ!!!
Natinoal Federation of the Blind.
---------------------------------
umm
ya i used to get the books on tape.
i have a walkman sized book on tape player (they run the tape SLOW and use 4 sepret tracks) BUT there bulky and ya loos the blasted tapes ... i prefer text....
or audible.com :p

3 replies

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FigNinja

June 24, 2009 9:31 PM

@Zagroseckt:

The TTS restriction on Kindle books is easily circumvented. A quick google search will tell you how.

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H3ion

June 23, 2009 4:06 PM

@Zagroseckt: Sony also makes a reader, equivalent to the Kindle. It may have text to speech (don't know for sure) but it's worth looking at.

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annexw

June 23, 2009 8:01 PM

@H3ion: No text to speech on the sony, but it does have a mp3 player and expandable memory, so that might be an option for using audible.com

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Cialis Cooper

June 23, 2009 3:30 PM

Why would you want to download the same book 6 times? I don't get it.

5 replies

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Rectilinear Propagation

June 23, 2009 4:17 PM

@Cialis Cooper: The link to the previous article is busted: [consumerist.com]

Basically, it has to do with wanting the book on multiple devices and having to re-download the book every time you update your device.

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chiieddy

June 23, 2009 3:57 PM

@Cialis Cooper:
1. Device can hold x books (for ease I'm going to say 10, although we all know device can hold more).
2. User wants an 11th book.
3. User removes one book from device to make room for new book.
4. User finishes new book and wants the old book back.
5. Rinse and repeat.

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Cialis Cooper

June 23, 2009 4:35 PM

@chiieddy: @jesspark: Thanks. I just assumed there was some way to dump the book on to your harddrive and then reload it if you wanted it back on your device.

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chiieddy

June 23, 2009 4:59 PM

@Cialis Cooper: There is, but that would require people... doing it.

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jesspark

June 23, 2009 3:53 PM

@Cialis Cooper: Because you can download it to multiple devices -- say you have both a Kindle and an iPhone, and you also share your Amazon account with your spouse and your child. Assuming you all want to read the same book, that would involve using up four of the six available licenses.

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Rectilinear Propagation

June 23, 2009 4:24 PM

@jesspark, @chiieddy: I swear I thought I refreshed the page before replying.

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bunnycup

June 23, 2009 4:08 PM

Good post, Consumerist. I personally have a lot of hesitations and see a lot of infringing (on MY expectations as a consumer) problems with the DRM in the Kindle. Nevertheless, I (and family) are BIG readers who travel frequently.

Consumerist's labeling/disclosure suggestion is good, and I will not buy a Kindle for myself or as a gift until I see something identical or similar put in place.

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ElizabethD

June 23, 2009 4:21 PM

Clueless here: Is there any analog with the Kindle to checking out library books (or \"renting\" a movie online via Netflix)? I.e., the file would lock or expire after 30 days, and the fee would be hugely smaller than buying the book. I buy very few books new for financial reasons... Book sales, yard sales, Half.com, used on Amazon, but mostly the public library are my sources. I might be VERY interested in renting a book and viewing it on a device like the Kindle, especially if (as on Netflix) I had access to new mass-market books -- often hard to get at the library because ppl put holds on them and the wait can be months.

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RvLeshrac

June 23, 2009 6:52 PM

@ElizabethD:

The analogy between KindleDRM and Netflix would hold if you paid full retail price for each Netflix rental, for the ability to keep it forever, and if, at some point in the future, Netflix representatives showed up at your house to collect all of the movies you hadn't returned. Without warning. And without a refund.

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takes_so_little

June 23, 2009 7:00 PM

@RvLeshrac: Exactly. Rental, but with undisclosed terms. And high prices. Who WOULDN'T want one of these things?

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takes_so_little

June 23, 2009 4:42 PM

@ElizabethD: All Kindle purchases are potentially rentals. They won't tell you which ones, but the ones that are DRM'd are rentals, since you don't own them. They remain the property of the seller or publisher, who can revoke your rights to view it whenever they like. You hope it won't happen, not for a long time anyway, but you have no say.

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WelcomeToMyWorld

June 23, 2009 4:28 PM

Personally I've never used a Kindle and if they stay around $150 I know I won't ever buy one.

However my library has Kindle-type readers with pre-loaded books that can be checked out and used for free. It's just like any other library book. You return it within the time limit and there's no charge. You return it late and you pay a per-day late fee.

So you can try out the \"Kindle experience\" to see it you enjoy reading books on a screen, if your local library offers these. Then if this device makes sense for you, go ahead and purchase one.

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Corporate_guy

June 23, 2009 4:44 PM

I fail to see why they don't disclose this info and allow people to search for books based on DRM \"features\". The openness would basically put pressure on book sellers to drop the DRM. That could only help Amazon.

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BytheSea

So the person who said it was a problem with licenses vs. downloads was right. And most people don't want to put their books on more than 6 devices.

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Mary Marsala with Fries

June 23, 2009 5:39 PM

@BytheSea: Where do you get \"most people\" from? Especially considering how often even your average user upgrades computers and buys other devices, I don't think it's at all obvious that \"most people\" might not want or need to re-download a book quite a few times over the life of their ownership of it.

Here's a question: How many times have you taken a book that you owned and put it on a different shelf?

More than six?

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CFinWV

June 23, 2009 5:02 PM

@Radi0logy: I have a Sony eReader, I like not having to have a pile of books laying around. Same with CD's, I now buy digital copies to alleviate the clutter.

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Mary Marsala with Fries

June 23, 2009 5:38 PM

Yeah, my personal permanent boycott of evil DRM schemes aside (and any scheme that isn't clear with me about what it does is EEEEVIL, no contest), I just haven't been impressed with the Kindle on *so* many levels. The Consumerist is right -- there's no excuse for Amazon not to be on the ball with this. They had all the time & impetus in the world, and chose to ignore their customers' needs.

Fortunately, the finger I'm flipping them is available for infinite uses.

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P_Smith

June 23, 2009 5:51 PM

I you play with kindling, expect the risk of splinters or getting burned.

PDFs with no DRM are the only ethical way forward.

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RvLeshrac

June 23, 2009 6:55 PM

@P_Smith:

PDFs are inherently a DRM-full format (and PDFs are unreadable on massive numbers of devices due to the resources necessary for decoding). You really need a format that doesn't have any DRM, is fully cross-platform, but can be protected to limit distribution.

Password-protected archives of text files.

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P_Smith

June 23, 2009 7:07 PM

@RvLeshrac: I only said PDFs because they are widely used and can adjust to a screen or paper size easily. As long as it's not corrupted by unnecessary and greed-driven \"restrictions\", any format will do...although indexed and formatted files (headings, font sizes, indentation, etc.) are better than text.

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Dr. Eirik

June 23, 2009 6:05 PM

I actually have one sitting next to me right now. My wife bought it for me as a surprise for my birthday last year. I absolutely love it. I have easily 50-60 books on it right now, about half bought and half downloaded from (legal) free sites, with first chapter samples of about 50 more.

I'm a very eclectic reader. The last two books I read were \"1776\" (about the first year of the American Revoluton), then a sci-fi book called \"Fragment\". I'm just starting book 7 of \"The Dresden Files\" now. If I have a slow day at the office, and finish book 7, I can instantly buy book 8 and start reading. Or I can start on the biography of Albert Einstein I've had on it for the last couple months, or \"Darkly Dreaming Dexter\".

I can also jump into full author collections. I'm slowly working my way though the complete works of Arthur Conan Doyle (every book and short story he ever wrote in one file). I've bought similar, low priced collections from H.G. Wells and Lovecraft.

I've got a huge number of free sci-fi books from Baen, who give away copies of their authors early works to entice you to buy newer releases. I've found some very good works in those collections.

I also have found I read much faster on the Kindle. I'm not sure why, but I find it just easier.

There are drawbacks. Not everything is available in ebook formats. When I bought it, I managed to find four books in the \"Nero Wolfe\" mystery series on Amazon. Thankfully I bought all four because they have since vanished for reasons I haven't been able to find and no new ebook editions have come about that I've been able to locate. Even some new releases are simply not available, like any of the Harry Potter books (JK Rowling apparently doesn't like the idea of ebooks).

The last benefit is around the house. My wife hates clutter, and she views shelves of books as clutter. My book collection was banished to the garage when we moved last. Now, she's happy that an entire shelf of books takes up about as much space as two cell phones.

Oh, and the cost issue. When I first bought it, the cost of the books was always lower than the print version, and most books were less than $10. That isn't always true now, some books have crept higher. The most I have ever paid for a book myself was $9.99. I do have a couple of samples that I intend to buy where the books are $14.95. But the vast majority of what I've bought fall between about $5-$7. Oddly, $6.39 seems to be a rather standard price for some kinds of books.

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June 23, 2009 6:17 PM

@Dr. Eirik: \"My book collection was banished to the garage when we moved last.\"

Woah. Them'd be divorcin' words in our house.

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Anonymous

June 23, 2009 7:40 PM

I have a Kindle. Two, actually (I bought the original Kindle and was given a Kindle 2 in a giveaway). I seriously love it.

I'm a big reader; my husband and I between us have well over 2,000 books in the house. When we first married, we moved 3 times in two years. When I learned about books that weighed nothing and took no space, you can bet I sat up and took notice.

Most Amazon Kindle books are cheaper than their paper counterparts, and if they're not, I just don't buy them. In the meantime I can get out-of-copyright books (Tom Sawyer, Treasure Island, the Three Musketeers, Pride and Prejudice...) FREE, over Whispernet, from either Feedbooks or Mobileread. I get FREE, DRM-free in-copyright books from the Baen Free Library, and if I like that author I buy more DRM-free books from Baen, knowing that I can always re-download in other formats if I decide my next device will be a Hanlin or a Sony. I get FREE e-books from Tor when they do a promotion for a particular author or set of authors. And I get FREE e-books from Amazon when they do likewise.

But it isn't just about the number of books it can hold and it isn't just about the free books and the non-Amazon sources of books. For example, I can search within a document or across all documents with a few keystrokes--and I can do this while riding in a car or a plane. When I got lost in a strange city I typed a nearby address into Mapquest using Whispernet. When I've finished the 87 documents presently loaded I can buy more or download free classics, anywhere that Whispernet reaches.

As for why you might want to download a book to more than 6 devices, well, some of us keep our books. I have books I bought 30 years ago. Figure that electronic devices last about 5 years if you're careful and in 30 years you've easily gone through 6 devices. So, yes, the number of devices you can load a book to is obviously important to people like me.

And yes, some libraries offer checkout of mobipocket e-books that can be read on the Kindle, though arranging that is not entirely trivial. The people at Mobileread can explain more if you're seriously interested.

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SteveZim1017

June 23, 2009 8:54 PM

This is all Oprah's fault. Kindle was dying the death it should have before Oprah sang its praises. Now the uninformed masses are buying it with no idea they are \"renting\" their books.

if not for oprah we would have a drm free version of the kindle that amazon would be begging people to buy (probably for a lot cheaper too)

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oldtaku

June 23, 2009 9:21 PM

The other LOL bit here is that besides not even owning the book you bought, the digital version is very often more expensive than the print version. How freaking insane is that?

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Sanveann

June 23, 2009 11:19 PM

@oldtaku: Not really .... I've only ever seen one or two cases where that's true.

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Amy Alkon

June 24, 2009 6:23 AM

Kindle books garner bloggers who link to them ZERO commission. You send Amazon a customer through your links (as an Amazon Associates member, as many bloggers are) and for just about everything else on Amazon, you'll get a little something for it (perhaps 6.5 percent). For Kindle books alone -- with zero shipping, etc. --you get ZERO.

I had planned a whole Kindle store and scrapped it in the wake of discovering this. I talked to two of the guys on the Kindle Team at LA Times Festival of Books, and afterward. And I even snail-mailed a letter to Jeff Bezon. Yet, no change.

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Anonymous

June 24, 2009 2:18 PM

The thing is, Amazon forces publishers to adopt their DRM. If you're a publisher and you want to publish into the Kindle store, you have to accept Amazon's DRM. But there are DRM-free book-buying/bookselling alternatives, like from Smashwords (my company).

It's probably safe to say that most Amazon customers don't know or don't care that their books are DRM'd, until, of course, they get surprised by glitches that inhibit their ability to lawfully enjoy their book.

Mark Coker
Founder
Smashwords

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ninjapoodles

June 24, 2009 4:06 PM

Someone earlier (I don't have time to find the comment again, sorry) asked about what you do if your Kindle breaks, and I can answer that. My Kindle was in a chair, and, we think, must've been sat upon. The screen was cracked on the inside, which obscured the text. Amazon replaced it, free, with next-day shipping, also free. I actually had my new Kindle before I'd sent back the broken one.

According to Amazon's data, Kindle owners tend to keep buying \"real\" books at about the same rate they always did--they just buy Kindle editions on top of that. I find that interesting (and true in my case--I just bought two new books yesterday). I definitely get MORE reading done since getting a Kindle for my birthday last year, simply due to the convenience factor. It's always in my bag, wherever I am, so any previously wasted time is now spent reading, wherever I happen to be.

It's much easier to read while lying down with a Kindle than a book, especially a hardback. Maybe not a big deal for most, but for someone who does a lot of reading in bed, maybe it is.

One plus that I haven't seen mentioned is this: My 6-year-old daughter is a voracious reader of \"chapter books.\" I can't afford to buy as many as she reads, even at the used book store in paperback. (Our thrift/used book stores have plenty of pulp paperbacks and Harlequin-type romances, but precious little in the way of childrens' titles.) Yes, we have a public library in a nearby town, but for the cost of the gas to get there and back, and the time involved (not even mentioning the hassle of keeping up with the stack of books she checks out each time), I can get her the titles she wants on the Kindle, instantly, for very little cost. Most of what she reads on the Kindle runs right around the $2 area. Things like the Junie B. Jones series, Beverly Cleary, etc. Classics are also quite inexpensive.

The most expensive thing she's read on the Kindle was Neil Gaiman's \"The Graveyard Book,\" for which she partially reimbursed me from her own money. That's the rule for if her purchases outstrip her Kindle \"allowance,\" and it's working well so far.

This is not diminishing her great love for \"real\" books in the least. Last night she was propped up in her bed with a huge hardback volume of \"The Complete Calvin & Hobbes.\"

An additional feature that I love, especially for kids, is the \"lookup\" feature. Instead of having to totally interrupt the flow of reading, if she stumbles across a word she's unsure of, she just pushes a button and links immediately to a dictionary entry of that word, then pops right back to where she left off.

I have in no way given up on libraries, book stores, or print books, but I absolutely love my Kindle. It's the kind of thing I'd never have bought for myself, so I'm grateful to have been given one.

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grapedog

June 24, 2009 8:45 PM

I have no desire to own a kindle, but there are a number of other book readers out there. I can't remember the name of the one my co-worker has, but if I had to buy an ebook reader, I would buy it over a Kindle. Only reason I would ever own one of these would be to purchase/pirate textbooks...

I was amazed at how easy it was to read those screens, or how similar to an actual book they really seemed.

I still prefer a book in hand...

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Black-Cat

June 25, 2009 6:02 AM

Amazing! Proprietary junk=problems! Does Apple make the Kindle?