var json_comments = new Array("
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diasdiem
June 22, 2009 9:40 PM
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The perks of Analog Books: No DRM, and free at your local public library, or dirt cheap at a used book store.

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9 replies
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HogwartsAlum
June 23, 2009 1:23 PM
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@diasdiem:

Can read in the bathtub and if you drop it, you're not out $400.

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Segador
June 23, 2009 1:04 PM
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@diasdiem: Have you been to a public library lately? Did you ever ask them where that hot new bestseller (or any popular book) was so you could check it out? Remember how they laughed and handed you a list 15+ people long waiting to check the same book out for 2 weeks each? That's why I don't go to the library anymore. That, and the moms checking out sacks of 30-50 of the best kids books/DVDs at a pop, but that's another story.

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Powerlurker
June 23, 2009 1:28 AM
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@doctor_cos:

Waiting for it to ship and arrive or paying the extortionate rates that the local bookstores charge

Heavy and expensive, or you buy it used and find that some idiot has highlighted EVERYTHING and drawn penises in the margins.

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wvFrugan
June 23, 2009 3:59 AM
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@Powerlurker:


Oooohh (think Merv Griffin), penises in the margins eh?!

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Anonymous
June 23, 2009 12:56 AM
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@doctor_cos: Pros: Being able to buy a book anywhere, anytime without having to search for a bookstore and hoping that they have th e book you want;

Not paying the ridiculous prices charged for a new best-seller;

Being able to have daily newspapers and magazines downloaded to the Kindle to read immediately;

Not being a luddite about new technology

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Rectilinear Propagation
June 23, 2009 12:04 PM
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Not being a luddite about new technology

@HughGabulous: Cons: Getting screwed by the new technology because you bought it before all the problems and restrictions were exposed.

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Drew5764
June 23, 2009 12:34 AM
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@doctor_cos: Being able to write in the margins.
Being able to quickly flip to a page.
Color.

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Fixta Fernback
June 23, 2009 2:11 AM
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@Drew5764: And when you get really irked with an analog biochem textbook, you can angrily slam it on the floor. Can't quite do the same with a Kindle.

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logicalnoise
June 22, 2009 9:50 PM
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@diasdiem: analog college textbooks:


perks-
.
.
.
.


cons-
expensive as hell
new editions come out bi-yearly if not yearly so your investment drops in value almost as soon as you buy them.
an entire industry of colleges cut off at the balls by the major publishers of the country.

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tdatl
June 22, 2009 10:25 PM
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@logicalnoise: I expect at some point within the next few years, Amazon & college textbook publishers will pay some university big $$$ to require incoming students to purchase a Kindle and to get all textbooks that way. They need to get the ball rolling. The publishers likely can cut afford to pay well any university doing this and still come out ahead.

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diasdiem
June 22, 2009 9:42 PM
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@diasdiem: Also, you can sell them when you're done with them.

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shepd
June 22, 2009 9:40 PM
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Why, oh why do people insist on joining the DRM racket?

For any media I buy that I intend to enjoy more than once, I will only ever buy a physical product (preferably DRM-free, although the DRM is okay if it's totally cracked [like in the case of DVDs]), or a totally DRM/hardware-lock-in-free format. For a book that would mean ASCII text, or a PDF that works in xpdf. An MS-word file would even be okay if it opens up in OpenOffice. Basically, if I can operate the download with any \"player\" I feel like, it makes it on my \"Can buy\" list. Otherwise, no thanks.

I don't feel all that bad for people getting burned by these devices; it was pretty obvious it was going to happen sooner or later.

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4 replies
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johnfrombrooklyn
June 23, 2009 1:48 PM
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@shepd: I guess you never buy console video games.

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shepd
June 23, 2009 4:39 PM
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@johnfrombrooklyn:

Actually, I do. I have a library of about 100 of them.

The DRM on consoles is *just* palatable. It's really on the edge, though. And it's only because console games are the best of a bad lot. The DRM at least lets me play it for as long as I like and never \"revokes\" my right to play it and (nowadays) doesn't try to purposely damage the console. This is unlike the modern day PC game that will go out of its way to wreck up your daemontools (amongst other things), and basically refuse to play unless you have a PC identical to the developer's so the DRM can work.

Of course, with consoles your console is pretty much identical to the developer's (although it isn't the same as their development console) so it's the saving grace that makes the DRM work. But, given the choice, I'd go with DRM-free. That's why I own a GP2X and am thinking about buying a Pandora (someday).

But, to be frank, I still modchip the consoles, because there's a lot more than just commercial games that the things can do. XBMC being a prime example.

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tdatl
June 22, 2009 9:52 PM
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@shepd: a bit of a cold attitude to take, but I must confess i'm with you... the Kindle is about DRM and nothing else. Music, books, whatever else... buying digitally protected content almost ensures you lose access at some point for some reason.


How great if the publishers of college textbooks can limit them to one student?! They can get off that treadmill of changing a few paragraphs/exercises or readings in that math or 1800s literature compilation to kill those awful used bookstores.


Goodbye libraries too... it's the end goal -- pay for everything & much more limited sharing. I don't see libraries disappearing any time soon, but I do see them as in the publishers' sights.


my wife & i got one for Christmas. We sold it on CL.

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Powerlurker
June 23, 2009 1:30 AM
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@tdatl:

You know, you CAN put free ebooks on your Kindle if you want. Amazon will even do the conversion for you.

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logicalnoise
June 22, 2009 9:40 PM
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amazon screwed up by not immeidtaly having a way to see how many downloads are allowed and the blame also rests on the increasingly annoying and blowhard publisher unions. First they blow up against robot text to speech now they inisist one ase by case download limits of books we're paying full price for.

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1 replies
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Rectilinear Propagation
June 23, 2009 12:06 PM
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@logicalnoise: At this rate book publishers will be in the Worst Company in America contest instead of the RIAA/MPAA.

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El_Fez
June 22, 2009 9:40 PM
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Ah, good ol' print. You dont find this level of dickery with hard copies!

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3 replies
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Corporate_guy
June 22, 2009 10:14 PM
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@El_Fez: If people wanted a printed copy, they would buy a printed copy. Since these people did not buy a printed copy, they must not want a printed copy. Get it?

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El_Fez
June 22, 2009 10:20 PM
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@Corporate_guy: I'm fine with their choice. If they want print, buy print. If they want digital, buy digital. I simply have no sympathy for them. Buy DRM crippled items (with the caviat that you go into the purchase full well knowing about the DRM), you lose the right to whine when you run headlong into that same DRM.

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Corporate_guy
June 22, 2009 11:00 PM
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@El_Fez: No you have the right to whine when they hide the restrictions. It's called fraud. And making a fuss about these drm schemes is the best way to kill these drm schemes.

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El_Fez
June 23, 2009 8:04 AM
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@Corporate_guy:
Hiding the restrictions? I've never even looked at the fine print on one of these things and I could tell you that buying digital books is a bad idea, that they could turn off your books at any time they want (Something akin to Microsoft's PlaysForSure music scam), prevent you from copying it to other computers, or otherwise cripple their product at their whim. So yeah, it may be hidden in the fine print that you can only download X number of times, anyone with a lick of sense should have know that was the case anyway.

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Corporate_guy
June 23, 2009 4:51 PM
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@El_Fez: But it wasn't in the fine print. The restrictions weren't stated anywhere.

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Jabberkaty
June 23, 2009 5:28 PM
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@Corporate_guy: I think El_Fez's point is that this is something that cripple most electronic mediums and should be expected. Yes, it's illegal not to report it, but unsurprising none-the-less.

Like blaming the toaster for not having a warning tag saying you'll get electrocuted if you bathe with it. Yep, most toasters have the warning label, but if you buy the one the doesn't have the label, don't be surprised if you still end up toasty in the tub.

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El_Fez
June 23, 2009 11:26 PM
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@Jabberkaty: Right in one. Go to the head of the class.

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fantomesq
June 23, 2009 1:51 AM
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@Corporate_guy: It does seem a bit wishy-washy. Either provide NO multiple downloads (with the ability to move your purchased titles to a new device manually) or provide unlimited downloads but lock them on the machines... doing half of both but not being upfront about it is an achilles heel for the service.

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redskull
June 22, 2009 9:58 PM
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@El_Fez: But haven't you heard? Print is dead!

Sorry to disappoint the world, but it's alive and well in my house.

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Paul Carr
June 22, 2009 9:43 PM
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This sounds like a customer service rep that did not know the answer and just made something up. However if that is not the case Amazon really needs to step up to this quickly and have full disclosure.

I really like Amazon and have always had good luck with them but this would be a killer on my plan to buy a kindle.

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enthreeoh
June 22, 2009 9:45 PM
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Steam provides the best of both worlds.

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5 replies
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datafox
June 23, 2009 7:10 PM
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@enthreeoh:

Stardock is excellent with your own copy.

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Con Seannery's G1
June 22, 2009 9:53 PM
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@enthreeoh: You mean the program and service? Steam blows, buddy. Big time. I got fucked over by it and had to resort to an EECB because support couldn't be bothered to respond. Also, Steam doesn't do books for the Kindle.

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Con Seannery's G1
June 23, 2009 4:29 AM
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@Corporate_guy: I had lost an account with them. When I was putting in the password, it then locked down on me.

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Corporate_guy
June 23, 2009 4:54 PM
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@Con Seannery's G1: I had the opposite. I played counter strike before steam and upgraded to steam. Basically then didn't play it for like 4 years. I then logged in and all my games where still there.

But your issue is the same with anything that doesn't require the linking of billing info. If the recovery email doesn't work, and there is no billing info to verify. There is nothing they can really do if they want their security to be valid in any way.

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logicalnoise
June 22, 2009 9:51 PM
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@enthreeoh: and still allows companies to support broken DRM schemes. Steams great but it isn't perfect.

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Chris Walters
June 22, 2009 9:45 PM
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The downsides to print/analog/old-tech books: bulk, single instantiation, fewer methods of interactivity. The problems with the Kindle are good arguments against DRM--especially when it's draconian and foolishly implemented--not good arguments against ebooks in general.

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2 replies
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ophmarketing
June 22, 2009 11:29 PM
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@Chris Walters: I pretty much stopped demanding \"interactivity\" from my books around the same time bits of them stopped popping up when I turned the page...

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Chris Walters
June 22, 2009 11:46 PM
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@ophmarketing: And I still buy and marvel at pop-up books.

In this case, however, I mean accessing the content and doing stuff with it, including indexing, searching, compiling, mashing-up with other stuff, and so on. It could be as simple as curating a large library of content for a research project or a novel, or as weird as using bits of content from printed works to create/augment a new work, possibly in another medium entirely.

The physical book is just an object that happens to contain the intellectual content. I say that digital versions of books provide more flexibility when it comes to getting at the good stuff.

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ajlei
June 23, 2009 9:03 AM
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@Chris Walters: There are some amazing pop-up books out their. Robert Sabuda and Matthew Reinhart do a lot of children's tales (Cinderella, Peter Pan, etc) in popup and they always look great. And there's a really well-done Star Wars one -- just don't let it around any children, it'll be destroyed.

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qxrt
June 22, 2009 9:49 PM
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I never understood why the online community seemed so obsessed with Kindle, and stories like this just make it even harder to understand.

If I'm going to go from the tried-and-true book to some digital format, it should be better or at least equal to everything I can get from a paperback; DRM like this merely ensures that I never make the switch.

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1 replies
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Powerlurker
June 23, 2009 1:36 AM
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@qxrt:

Think of the Kindle as the Apple approach to ebooks. Take one part sexy industrial design, one part top-to-bottom integration, and one part access to a content provider with a large amount of content with easy availability and integration into said hardware and software. You aren't just buying Kindle: the ebook reader. You're buying Kindle: the ebook reader with instant access to and integration with Amazon's ebook store, much like the iPod+iTunes+iTunes store combination.

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HiPwr
June 22, 2009 9:51 PM
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I don't own a Kindle and I don't recall ever even holding one in my hand, so excuse my ignorance; why would you download a book more than once?

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2 replies
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Chris Walters
June 22, 2009 10:02 PM
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@HiPwr: If you own a Kindle and an iPhone, you can download the book to both devices. Amazon keeps track of where you are in the book and updates your bookmarks across both devices, so you can swap back and forth depending on which device you have access to.

That's basically what Dan was doing, except he had two iPhones and one Kindle and wanted the book to appear on all three.

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Corporate_guy
June 22, 2009 10:22 PM
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@Chris Walters: Yes he wanted it on all three, but he didn't know this would be a problem as Amazon doesn't disclose the limits.

But the more important issue is upgrades. When he upgraded the OS on the first iphone, that meant he had to redownload as if it was a completely different device. But Amazon won't let him redownload. So an iphone upgrade means you lose your books.

You also have the same problem if you get a new phone every year or two. In 2-4 years your books will hit their limit and you won't be able to put them on your newest phone. You are only using one phone at a time, but Amazon clearly doesn't have a way to account for this. And you may say, well big whoop, how many times do you read a single book? Well in the case of reference books and text books you might keep them around for a long while to reference.

Clearly Amazon needs a way to \"return\" books and set it up so they can time out(in the case of lost device). Such as making it so the device has to check-in online once every two weeks or a month to keep the book accessible. That way you can only have two active copies at once and have the ability to move the books around between devices.

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Chris Walters
June 22, 2009 10:37 PM
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@Corporate_guy:

Amazon could also copy the iTMS \"authorized computer\" model, where you register and deregister your devices as needed. Upgrade or crossgrade all you want, because you can always change the list of authorized devices.

This would also allow them to make it explicitly clear how many iPhones and Kindles you can have registered to a single account. (Currently it's hard to find that information.)

If it's true that publishers can determine your download limits on a per-title basis, then Amazon needs to make that explicit for each book before it's purchased. If you're going to use DRM, you have to be fair about it and tell the customer exactly what he can expect.

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fantomesq
June 23, 2009 2:04 AM
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@Chris Walters: I completely agree Chris but this would break Amazon's locked universe model.

Right now, part of Amazon's sales pitch to publishers/authors is that the content is locked into the devices in question and can not be copied to a computer, printed or otherwise redistributed.

In the iPhone's case the best model is that the downloaded books be synced to the computer before upgrade and automatically resynced after upgrade - much as they now do with songs, pictures, video and apps... it could preserve their locked universe if the works are otherwise inaccessible from the host computer.

We've seen how quickly Amazon buckles under to the publishers and abandons consumer friendly functions. If the publishers back out, the Kindle is reduced to public domain works.

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Karita
June 22, 2009 11:49 PM
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@Chris Walters: I just got a Kindle a few weeks ago. The site is very clear that six Kindles/iPhones can be registered to one account.

I didn't notice anything about download limits, though. In fact, a big selling point is that you can remove the book from a device, and it will always be there in your archive for when you want to download it again.

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Chris Walters
June 23, 2009 3:56 AM
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@Karita: Can you provide a link to the page that has that information? I swear I looked all over for it today but must have missed it. (I know I've seen it in the past.) Thx.

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Karita
June 23, 2009 3:46 PM
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@Chris Walters: Do you have a Kindle? If so, it's on the main page of the Manage My Kindle section of the Kindle Store at amazon.com. I honestly don't know if I ever saw that info before I got a Kindle - I don't even remember seeing it after I installed the iPhone app. But once I purchased the product and went to the website, it was obvious. But sorry, posting it would require me giving you my username and password. :)

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FreakinSyco
June 22, 2009 9:52 PM
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Submitted to Digg.

[digg.com]

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1 replies
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Corporate_guy
June 22, 2009 10:25 PM
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@FreakinSyco: Nice of you to join the party. Here is a reddit link that is two days old. [www.reddit.com]

It's like a waterfall. Reddit->Consumerist->Digg.

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Mariushm
June 22, 2009 9:55 PM
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There's also the fact that Amazon uses EVDO with fallback to 1xRTT whatever that is and probably made a deal with Sprint to pay them something like 5-10 cents for each book that's transferred to a Kindle device using their network.

So it's kind of hard to make a profit out of a $.99 book when a person downloads it 5 times.

Otherwise, DRM is the price they have to accept to get themselves on the market and convince publishers to sell their books through them. Once they reach a certain percent of the market, like Apple did with their iTunes store, they'll probably have the leverage to push for less restrictions.

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1 replies
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fantomesq
June 23, 2009 2:08 AM
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@Marius H: Or wait until the publishers panic at the idea of one company playing that big a role in the market and start allowing competitors to sell unprotected works in order to break the supposed market dominancew

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psyneo
June 22, 2009 9:59 PM
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Most Kindle books can have the DRM stripped out. I do so as soon as I can get the content to my computer and run the necessary Python scripts, which I keep in a folder on my Kindle. I made sure this was possible before I purchased my device.

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3 replies
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kbarrett
June 23, 2009 5:46 PM
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@psyneo: Don't get caught. Removing DRM is a DMCA violation, and actually a felony in the US.

As insane as that is ...

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psyneo
June 22, 2009 10:02 PM
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@psyneo: I understand the argument that \"you shouldn't have to\", but if I can circumvent an unjust practice, I'll do so rather than deny myself on principle.

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johnfrombrooklyn
June 23, 2009 1:51 PM
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@psyneo: I believe it's unjust that you may have money in your bank account while thousands of African children are starving. Therefore, please excuse me if I hack into your savings and send it to African NGOs. I realize that \"I shouldn't have to\" but I'll do so rather than deny myself on principle.

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psyneo
June 23, 2009 6:53 PM
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@johnfrombrooklyn: Your analogy is flawed. I'm not stealing. I'm purchasing something and removing a restriction that prevents me from using it however I please. That's a pretty extreme response.

I could just as easily have gone to bit torrent and found the book in TXT, DOC, or MS LIT format and converted it, but I downloaded it from the Kindle store and paid my ten bucks.

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datafox
June 23, 2009 7:13 PM
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@psyneo: You purchased something but what did you purchase? A license or the ownership. That is the sticky point of the law. Most likely you have a license.

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Tiber
June 23, 2009 3:21 PM
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@johnfrombrooklyn: What the h*** does that have to do with anything?

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post_break
June 22, 2009 10:21 PM
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This strikes me as ironic. You can \"buy\" the book however only transfer it to the device X amount of times? With the iPhone you could buy the $999 imrich app, delete it, and reinstall it as many times as you'd like. I don't understand the DRM going on here. Usually DRM is used to keep the customer from handing out the content, not keep the customer from getting the content from the source.

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enthreeoh
June 22, 2009 10:27 PM
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@Con Seannery's G1: Obviously they don't do books (they do games), but they do digital distribution with DRM that manages to not fail in every way.

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Daniel Norton
June 22, 2009 10:45 PM
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I ran into the same problem with magazines on the Kindle. I went to download an issue from a few months ago and found that it wasn't available in the list of downloads. It had been there a week before, and I wrote Amazon customer service to find out why the past issues (that I had received previously) were not available. Here is the response with the magazine name omitted:

Hello Daniel,

Thank you for your patience regarding your Kindle subscription to {The Magazine}.

Generally the last 7 issues of a subscription are available to download to your Kindle, but it appears that the publishers of {The Magazine} have restricted access to our Kindle customers to only provide the last 2 issues.

I apologize for any frustration this may have caused, but thank you for shopping with Amazon.com

Best regards,
{Your Friendly CSR}

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1 replies
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fantomesq
June 23, 2009 2:11 AM
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@Daniel Norton: But you PURCHASED content, not rented it right? Wow.

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ElizabethD
June 22, 2009 11:07 PM
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This happened to me with iTunes and individual songs. As I upgraded computers etc. over the years, I found I could not transfer music files onto the next device. Ugh.

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1 replies
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FigNinja
June 22, 2009 11:10 PM
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Amazon has stated that up to six devices on the same account can share the book. If you've downloaded it to six devices, then you have used all the licenses. You can re-download it over and over to one of those licensed devices, though. This story is really rather misleading. Now, if you have deregistered a device and want that license back, you have to contact CS to do that. It won't free it up automatically.

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4 replies
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jesspark
June 23, 2009 2:40 AM
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@FigNinja: I'm wondering if he shares his account and that's why he's running into this problem.

I share mine, for instance; my parents bought me a Kindle for Christmas, and we all have our Kindles on the same Amazon account. This means that I can read any books that my parents buy, but, with three people on the same account, we're using up those six licenses per title pretty quickly -- especially with my mom's new iPod Touch. That's four licenses out of six if everyone downloads the same book onto each Kindle or Kindle-friendly device. If Dad and I each got an iPod Touch/iPhone or upgraded to a new Kindle, we'd be hitting the limit.

When you share an account and start having more than one Kindle/iWhatever per person, those licenses disappear faster than you might think.

Anyway, I think you're right, and that the author doesn't understand the difference between downloads and licenses. I wish we had more information, such as whether he shares his account, or exactly how many devices he owns.

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jesspark
June 23, 2009 2:44 AM
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@jesspark: ...Aaannd, I just read the actual article rather than just the Consumerist summary. Yay, me!

Two iPhones and one Kindle shouldn't result in hitting the limit, unless the guy's sharing his account and someone else has downloaded those titles to multiple devices.

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trellis23
June 23, 2009 1:02 PM
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@jesspark:

Right, but he says he replace his iphone and ipod touch (at least the OS making it look new). So that's up to five devices. On top of that, you can see that he's been buying books since before the K2 was out, so he def. had a K1 and if he replaces his iphone so easily for the newest and greatest, it isn't a far reach to assume he replaced his K1 for a K2 especially since that's the picture he has.

Add to that, he may have had a replacement at some point, or has his partner or children sharing his account as well, and yes, he could easily have gone over the 6. Yes, that's all assumptions, but since he doesn't say... who knows. I would like to know more FACTS, because it is a scary notion. But having discussed in on the kindle boards at Amazon, no other people have had this problem that didn't find out in the end, that they had more than 6 licensed devices (old, and needed to be removed) on their account.

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twophrasebark
June 22, 2009 11:40 PM
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@FigNinja:

It doesn't say how many devices he download too.

I'm not sure you're understanding the story, but I could be wrong. Maybe I'm confused.

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FigNinja
June 23, 2009 12:32 AM
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@twophrasebark:

I understood the article just fine. I don't think the author understands the difference between downloads and licenses. I don't think Amazon makes it abundantly clear, either, so I'm not surprised.

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I Love New Jersey
June 22, 2009 11:48 PM
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What is wrong with reading actual books. I can buy dozens of books for the price of one of these stupid things.

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1 replies
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b.k.
June 23, 2009 12:31 AM
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\"You see, I was thinking about writing my story, so I bought this one on how to do it.\"

\"Why do you need 25 copies?\"

\"......in case I want to read it more than once.\"

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traezer
June 23, 2009 12:01 AM
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The Kindle makes me feel like a luddite. (also, I get all of my books for free at the library. Why buy something if its free?)

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jesspark
June 23, 2009 2:56 AM
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@traezer: You can (legally!) put tons of free books on the Kindle and carry them all around with you at one time -- plus, no late fees. ;) You don't have to buy a single thing from Amazon if you don't want to; the Kindle works independently of the site.

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BytheSea
June 23, 2009 12:45 AM
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If you can't find it mentioned anywhere, then maybe the CSR was wrong/high/new/trying to get fired and maybe the OP was having some other tech problem with his file folder. I wouldn't take it as truth from one letter and one CSR.

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kathyl
June 23, 2009 1:17 AM
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What a complete disappointment from the company that had one of the first high-profile DRM-free MP3 stores. I believe they were part of the pressure that forced Apple and iTunes to relent. Why would they forget that philosophy when it comes to their own device.

This makes me convinced that I'll never buy a Kindle as long as it would mean I'd have to agree to the draconian, ever-changing, never-good-for-me DRM restrictions inherent in the media I could purchase for the device. It's too bad, really. And Amazon, I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.

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fantomesq
June 23, 2009 2:16 AM
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@kathyl: Correction: Apple and iTunes never championed DRM - it was a requirement pushed by the music industry - the same music industry that tried to break Apple's dominance by providing non-DRM'd music to its competitors. Apple would have happily dropped DRM much sooner - it wasn't allowed to.

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vjmurphy
June 23, 2009 1:25 AM
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Amazon's MP3 download policy is even worse: you get 1 download, and if you don't make backups, you are screwed.

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HogwartsAlum
June 23, 2009 1:49 PM
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@vjmurphy:

Well good grief, you can buy a CD and if you don't rip it on your computer and you leave it in your car in 100-degree heat and it melts, you're screwed too.

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IISaiNtII
June 23, 2009 2:11 AM
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@vjmurphy: How is it their responsibility to ensure you make backups of YOUR data? Does a B&M store have to give you new products if yours are lost, stolen, or broken because you didn't keep track or take proper care of said items?
No.

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datafox
June 23, 2009 7:14 PM
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@IISaiNtII: But a B&M store will be able to replace a bad book or cd.

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IISaiNtII
June 23, 2009 1:29 AM
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Now, I'm no lawyer, but I consider my ability to interpret EULA's pretty up to par. Judging by what is said in their EULA above, these people need to be storing a permanent copy on their PC and transfer it to any desired devices (apparently at the limit of six devices).


Users can buy and download the content, then it's up to the user how it's distributed among their devices. It's not unusual to for a company (ie - iTunes music, iTunes videos) to allow only 1 download of their content per purchase.


Ignorance is bliss until you find out you're the one who's stupid.

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Xay
June 23, 2009 2:34 AM
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@IISaiNtII: The Kindle isn't set up in such a way that you can save a backup copy. It sends the book directly to the device - whether it is a Kindle, your iPhone, or iPod Touch.

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IISaiNtII
June 23, 2009 3:37 AM
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@xay: I've got no first-hand knowledge of the way it's set up, mostly because the job I do makes you leave any and all electronics at the door. But from the verbage used in the EULA's posted here, there should be some way (as jesspark has pointed out) to create a backup of the file/data to keep a user from having to repeatedly download.


Allowing people multiple downloads of the same digital product, to me, is a very kind way of saying \"We'll help you out if you lose your data, but don't expect us to babysit it.\" What if they decide to remove the content?


I think it would be fairly easy to find out what that maximum download number would be and should be fairly simple to show when purchasing, and that is an issue that lies on Amazon; to that extent, I do think there is a problem. Consumers have a right to know what the agreement is, IN WHOLE, and it isn't right that the download limit is not known to the people purchasing the book.

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Chris Walters
June 23, 2009 4:11 AM
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@IISaiNtII: You can download all copies of your books to your PC, then manually move those files back and forth to your Kindle. That's an intentional feature for customers who don't have access to the wireless connection.

The problem with the iPhone app is you can't do that. There's no way to manually add or remove books--it has to be done via Wi-Fi or 3G, and you have to rely on the copies that are on Amazon's servers.

Even if you make a backup on your PC, if Amazon won't send the book to your iPhone app then you can't read it on your iPhone.

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jesspark
June 23, 2009 3:02 AM
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@xay: Some people don't have access to Whispernet, which is what Amazon uses to send books to your Kindle, so these people transfer their books from their computer to their Kindle via USB -- meaning the book has to be on their hard drive in the first place.

So, yes, it IS set up in such a way that you can make backups.

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IISaiNtII
June 23, 2009 3:49 AM
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Apparently, Amazon has acted quickly in rectifying this ... somewhat:


[www.geardiary.com]

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Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
June 23, 2009 4:14 AM
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As long as there is DRM of any shape/form with the Kindle, I am not buying one. I will NOT be shackled to an arbitrary download/usage \"limit\" on something that I own. This is as asinine as a paperback book suddenly snapping shut and not allowing me to open it again because I've \"read it too many times.\" Ridiculous!

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b612markt
June 23, 2009 4:20 AM
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This is just nasty. Another reason to despise, loathe and avoid DRM.

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JulesNoctambule
June 23, 2009 4:26 AM
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Eh. The kind of books I enjoy the most would be worthless to me in a digital format. I'll leave the Kindle and DRM to those inclined to partake in it and stick with my non-digital collection of 19th and early 20th century handwritten cookbooks.

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HogwartsAlum
June 23, 2009 1:52 PM
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@JulesNoctambule:

I love old cookbooks. I don't cook much, but they're fun to read. I have one from 1910 and it took me about four readings before I figured out what \"forcemeat\" was.

Nobody say it! I know what you're thinking and that's not it! :)

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JulesNoctambule
June 23, 2009 11:19 PM
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@HogwartsAlum: I do a lot of cooking and I'm a bit of a magpie, so I have quite a lot! More than a thousand, actually. Forcemeat is hardly the oddest thing I've found in one -- pork cake, anybody?

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Bgeezy
June 23, 2009 2:19 PM
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@Segador: My library you can do just do it online and if its not in at one they will send it to another in the area which the site lets you do. I've never had to wait over 3 days for a book and had to wait for a week once for a mystery science theater dvd.

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Segador
June 24, 2009 8:52 PM
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@Bgeezy: Sadly, that's never been my experience.

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smirkette
June 23, 2009 2:37 PM
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But, as a previous commenter pointed out, you *can* back up your ebooks on a computer (I do). The big issue (also previously stated) is that Amazon is not being honest with its customers.

And all the anti-ebook reader comments are almost off topic; ebook readers are definitely a niche product. If you don't want one, don't get one. For folks who read a lot and travel a lot, they're fabulous. I love mine, even dealing with the false DRM BS & overpriced tech.

I hope Amazon steps up and becomes more transparent about what exactly their customers are getting.

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highpitch_83
June 23, 2009 2:47 PM
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This news reaffirms my decision to never purchase one of these. Thanks Consumerist!

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takes_so_little
June 23, 2009 3:21 PM
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@diasdiem: You can loan or even give an analogue book to someone.

If the bookseller goes out of business, or decides to change his/her business model, your right to read your analogue book will not be revoked.

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Black-Cat
June 25, 2009 6:12 AM
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Here's a novel idea: DON'T BUY THIS PILE OF SHIT and you won't have all of these problems. The idiots who buy these just keep feeding Amazon.

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