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MickeyMoo
June 4, 2009 1:24 PM
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All those linked CR articles are filled with a few too many \"may\" and \"might\"'s to make me comfortable about plunking down 20-30-40k on a dead brand of vehicle. Not to mention the bouncing Lemon Law checks and spotty quality control. I want to support Union labor, I want to buy American, but .... gotta pass on this one no matter how steep the discounts and incentives are.

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7 replies
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babyruthless
June 6, 2009 3:55 PM
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@MickeyMoo: My \"American\" Chevy Aveo was made in South Korea. And with ~50k miles on it, required a new transmission. And I was charged $500 for a new airbag clip system when, oops, turns out your clock was bad! Third new clock! And most of the repairmen treat me like crap because I'm a girl (\"Of course you have a seatbelt buckle. It would be impossible for you to not\"....Ok, so I technically had a seatbelt buckle, but it was between the back of the backseat and the interior of the trunk. Sorry I couldn't find it myself--it only required you to pull the backseat completely out of the car).


All in all, I'm dunzo with GM. I was raised in a GM family, dyed in the wool, and I have watched car after car after car die a premature death (2 cracked head gaskets--a Pontiac Bonneville and a Chevy S-10). My car is complete and utter shite (it was named as one of the 10 nails in GM's coffin), and I have had pretty lousy customer service. So, yeah, I have pretty much 0 sympathy, especially when the execs whine that their new cars are pretty good, they just have a bad rep. My car is a 2005, and I cannot wait till it dies and I can buy a Mini Cooper. Luckily, that shouldn't be too long.

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alexcassidy
June 4, 2009 10:05 PM
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@MickeyMoo: \"I want to support Union labor, I want to buy American, but .... gotta pass on this one no matter how steep the discounts and incentives are. \"


...so buy a Ford. Their lineup is better than it's been in years and you get an added bonus of supporting a company that hasn't yet taken a government handout =)

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Rectilinear Propagation
June 4, 2009 3:19 PM
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@MickeyMoo: I wanna know why they're still selling them for 20-40K. Don't the dealers that aren't getting the right to sell those new vehicles renewed have only until the 8th to get a customer to buy them?

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U-235
June 4, 2009 1:40 PM
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@MickeyMoo: Yeah, and there are pleanty of union-built made in America foregin brand cars that are a hell of a lot better than GM's. Makes it pretty easy to pass on their vehicles.

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Jim Topoleski
June 4, 2009 1:58 PM
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@tard: No, but swaying public opinion and convincing the American public unions caused this, while giving away HUNDREDS of billions to the banking industry certainly is.

Especially when you realize its that same banking industry that withheld the loans the 3 auto manufacturers where relying on, which caused them to spend all their profits that are at the root of this mess.

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MickeyMoo
June 4, 2009 2:11 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: One word: Aztek. Meaning that the corporate structure that was in place that allowed the Aztek to make it off a drawing board and into production is to blame. Badge engineering is to blame. My neighboors Cadillac who's armrest/door handle assembly came off the afternoon he drove it home from the dealer is to blame.


Sad to say but there was no profit. They've been riding on fumes for years. Iit's an ugly and complex situation, of which I am sure that the bailed out banks had a part in hastening. If GM and Chrysler had been making cars that lots of people actually wanted to buy, the situation wouldn't have been as dire. They may well have been able to downsize organically through attrition (given some Union cooperation) and tightening up the brand differentiation with some innovation instead of a badge and some different upholstery.

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Rachacha
June 4, 2009 4:12 PM
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@MickeyMoo: \"If GM and Chrysler had been making cars that lots of people actually wanted to buy, the situation wouldn't have been as dire\"


Exactly. All of the cars that I have ever owned have been GM Vehicles (I am not loyal to only GM, and I doo look at other brands when I am shopping, it is just that GM had the features that I was looking for…so I guess I am an existing GM customer, and their cars appeal to me, the exact demographic that they want to keep) I sat on a focus group before the new Malibu came out, looking at advertising, brochures and commenting on the car's design. The response from the focus group that I was in was not kind, comments like \"$h!+\" and \"Terrible\" were common place when it came to the looks and the design. These comments were from loyal GM customers as well as customers who were loyal to other brands. To be fair, there were some positive comments as well. What was interesting however was looking at the ad campaign that was finally used. Even though the focus group was very critical of it, they did not change one thing in the ad campaign. So they asked consumers what they wanted, the consumers told them, and they didn't listen...no wonder I have not seen many 2009 Malibu's on the road.

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H3ion
June 4, 2009 11:36 PM
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@Rachacha: FWIW, the Malibu is really not a bad car. Your opinion may be different but my daughter has been driving one for three years and has had exactly zero repairs other than scheduled maintenance.

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balthisar
June 4, 2009 1:53 PM
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@U-235: Which are union-built? Only the Madza 6 as far as I can tell.

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rdm
June 4, 2009 1:31 PM
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@MickeyMoo: Agreed, the risk is still there and is quite great even if the prices are a little better.

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Radi0logy
June 4, 2009 1:29 PM
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6. If I buy a Honda, will I have to worry about those things?

Answer: NO

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4 replies
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William Brinkman
June 4, 2009 4:29 PM
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@Radi0logy: I'll take a Cobalt SS over a mediocre Civic Si with a sketchy transmission any day.

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Heresy_Fnord
June 4, 2009 3:38 PM
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@Radi0logy: @Sean Masters: WTF are you talking about? GM hasn't been falling apart for 30 years. That's your perception. I love Saturn's cars and so do hundreds of thousands of loyal Saturn owners. Even modern GM cars are great.

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Heresy_Fnord
June 4, 2009 3:39 PM
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@Heresy_Fnord: @ddmeightball: Really? An old friend of mine has a Honda S2000 and it's \"VTEC\" variable timing failed in just under 2 years and was repaired multiple times and still never worked. The mechanic finally said they didn't know how to permanently fix it.

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ddmeightball
June 4, 2009 1:36 PM
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@Radi0logy:
7. If I buy a Toyota/Scion, will I have to worry about those things?


Answer: NO

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Anonymous
June 4, 2009 1:34 PM
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I have answers for #'s 1 and 5 my family owns a auto shop and has been experiencing these things first hand. #1 government is backing the warranties and on the auto shop side it takes them 30-60 days to get paid. For #5 parts are available but many dealerships where auto shops buy parts from for certain vehicle owe money the Gm and Chrysler so they are not able to procure parts till the dealerships are paid up with gm or Chrysler corporate which is why repair times are going up. Fyi the shop is in Houston on the West side

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missy070203
June 4, 2009 1:36 PM
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Now I don't feel so bad driving around in my Ford....

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militarydave
June 4, 2009 1:37 PM
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I'm just glad i'm a mechanic and work on my own car(s). i can't do everything (some things are shop specific), but the question is.... will 3rd party auto supply chains be able to get parts? and if so, we can only hope they don't raise their prices.


simply put.... they make too many cars that nobody wants, and they dont make them like they used to.

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3 replies
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HIV 2 Elway
June 4, 2009 2:32 PM
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@militarydave: You're a mechanic? How often do I really need to change my oil filter. The guys at the quick oil change dump ate constantly pushing that on me.

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Zach Quella
June 4, 2009 2:57 PM
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@HIV 2 Elway:

Uh... You're supposed to change that every time you change your oil.

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HIV 2 Elway
June 4, 2009 2:59 PM
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@Zach Quella: Shit, not oil filter air filter. How often does that need to be swapped out.

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Ragman
June 5, 2009 3:53 AM
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@HIV 2 Elway: If you're going to keep the car for at least 60,000 miles, you may want to consider a K&N filter.

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Rachacha
June 4, 2009 7:17 PM
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@HIV 2 Elway: It varries on your driving conditions. If you are driving on dusty dirty roads, your filter will get clogged faster than if you drive in the city. I was always told that you should check it periodically and replace it when you could no longer see light through it. On my vehicles, that is usually about every 12K-15K miles.

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balthisar
June 4, 2009 1:54 PM
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@militarydave: Thank GOD they don't make them like they used to. They used to be crap. They're actually pretty damned good these days, quality-wise. Sure, not as a good as Ford/Toyota/Honda, but better than most of the rest.

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Jim Topoleski
June 4, 2009 1:43 PM
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@Radi0logy: @ddmeightball: Yet

Both have had major build quality drops, and both are in serious trouble as well now.

The difference? The Japanese government supports its auto industry, while the US one goes out of its way to hang it by its neck.

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7 replies
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mzs
June 4, 2009 3:43 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: Toyota has in particular had almost across the board issues with quality over the last four years. Honda has had a few peculiar issues such as a string of self destructing transmissions in the Odyssey for two model years, but nothing across nearly all the models yet. Toyota used to over engineer everything to almost the same level that Mercedes Benz did in the in the W116 and W126 platforms, they no longer do. Honda still seems to engineer things to the same level as they always did which now is better than Toyota but was worse in the past. At least that is how I would generalize things from evidence like when I remove fasteners like bolts what color are they and how often are they showing signs of stress such as being stretched. Mazda and Toyota now tend to use the cheapest grade that will do, while Honda tends to use slightly better grades.

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ddmeightball
June 4, 2009 1:55 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: \"Both have had major build quality drops\"


And yet the quality is still better than anything \"Made in America\".

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LegoMan322
June 4, 2009 3:39 PM
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@ddmeightball: Have never bought American for these reasons. Sad to say but our cars are so substandard I refuse to waste the money on a really ugly car...Hello Ford. GM is at least more appealing in terms of looks...but Ford's cars are the ugliest I have ever seen. They just look cheap.

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captainpicard
June 4, 2009 2:18 PM
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@ddmeightball:


most of toyota cars are made in america from american suppliers built by american workers.

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Sean Masters
June 4, 2009 1:54 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: err, what? GM has been falling apart for the better part of 30 years, and bankrupt since 05/06. They hung themselves.

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tard
June 4, 2009 1:49 PM
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@Jim Topoleski:

\"The difference? The Japanese government supports its auto industry, while the US one goes out of its way to hang it by its neck.\"

Apparently funneling tens of billions of dollars into the industry is the same as \"hanging it by its neck\"?

WTF?

'tard

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doctor_cos wants you to remain calm
June 4, 2009 2:11 PM
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\"... it's likely that the resale value of its vehicles will drop\"
That would be strike 3 for my whim of buying a new Challenger.
I would like to thank all the folks who made this economic crisis possible, saving me at least $30K in this instance.

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BlazerUnit
June 5, 2009 5:06 AM
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@doctor_cos: No offense to your own reasoning, but I think resale value is a stupid stat when it's leaned on folks dumb enough to use their cars as investments.

Is it really matter that you lost less money on your Toyota/Honda/Nissan sedan at trade in time? Not in my opinion. The salesmen are still going to try and low-ball your trade, and also try and pack on costly extras if you decide to go ahead and buy.

You can just as easily play the depreciation game to your benefit by buying a lightly used domestic car, and roll the savings into a 'car repair account' that you might not dip into as much as you thought.

I say buy the car you know you want, and drive it until you're sick of driving it, sick of fixing it, or whatever. Even if CR doesn't like it, you can still use their findings as a heads-up for things that the car in question falls short in, possibly doing something in the aftermarket to fix it yourself.

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trujunglist
June 4, 2009 10:00 PM
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@doctor_cos:

Me too. I really wanted that freakin' Challenger, but damn, if the resale value is going to tank, I dunno.. I might want some new car a while down the line...

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formatc
June 4, 2009 2:38 PM
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@doctor_cos: I've been planning to buy a 2010 Camaro and the current situation hasn't really dissuaded me enough to give up. I still want one, and I'm not planning on reselling it any time soon. I'll probably be placing my order for one this Saturday.

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Skankingmike
June 4, 2009 2:31 PM
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what about if somebody has a lease?

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econobiker
June 4, 2009 3:01 PM
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One opinion.


1. Is my warranty backed? Focus purchasing a vehicle in the middle or end of its model life cycle for reliability. See number 5.
2. What if my dealer closes? Go to another dealer who services that brand. Don't expect them to be really nice about it since you didn't buy the car there but they will be able to handle the repairs.
3. What if I want to sell my car? Sell it privately to get more money than dealers ever offer.
4. What if my brand is discontinued? Ask Plymouth and Oldsmobile owners about that.
5. Will parts and service be available? By focusing on buying a car in the middle or end of its model lifecycle parts should readily be available in the aftermarket. Ie go for the left over PT Cruisers for good support and parts. Any model out for 4 or more years should be ok. Do not go after brand new models or models of only 1 or 2 years on the market.


As they say YMMV- your mileage may vary...

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ddmeightball
June 4, 2009 3:05 PM
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@captainpicard: most of toyota cars are made in america from american suppliers built by american workers.\"


@AirIntake: \"From Japanese designs.....\"


Exactly Air.

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sanjsrik
June 4, 2009 3:42 PM
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what's an \"financial id expert\"?

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doctor_cos wants you to remain calm
June 4, 2009 4:18 PM
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@sanjsrik: Someone who helps with your subconcious financial needs?

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I Love New Jersey
June 4, 2009 3:49 PM
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Let me fix that first sentence for you:
Now that Chrysler and GM are getting nationalized, what does this mean for me?

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Skaperen
June 4, 2009 4:19 PM
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6. What if a vehicle defect has resulted in a death or a mountain of financially devastating medical bills? Can I sue?

A. No. Bankruptcy wipes out all past debts. The government decided that protecting people against defects is not important since they won't think about that during purchase decisions. You're screwed!

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Shane Elliott
June 4, 2009 4:41 PM
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I'd rather just buy my cars fro ma company who was responsive enough to consumers to never end up in this position. If you think about it, Chrysler and GM will still now have to go through all the screw-ups and bad releases that the better companies have already gone through before they ever get around to releasing models worth buying (assuming of course, that they ever even get that far before dying well-deserved deaths)

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henrygates
June 4, 2009 6:00 PM
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Should all these GM dealers then be selling their inventory at nearly used-car cost to get them off the lot?

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Onion_Volcano
June 4, 2009 6:13 PM
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@henrygates:
why would they? I thought GM was buying all unsold vehicles back after a certain point.

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heart.shaped.rock
June 4, 2009 6:41 PM
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@Onion_Volcano:
GM won't buy back the inventories, or so I've heard. That's why the dealers need to sell them NOW because after 6/9, they can't sell them any more. So, then what happens to the unsold inventory? Dunno. Maybe the dealers will sell them to other dealers who aren't getting shut down. But they have to do it by 6/9

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Anonymous
June 4, 2009 6:49 PM
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What about Technical Service Bulletin repairs?Are they still going to fix that stuff for free?After all it is not a recall, just oh this has broken on other cars like yours and we know it is a problem.

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Black-Cat
June 8, 2009 8:18 AM
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@WilletteAlmus: The government will handle that they say...isn't that reassuring?

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billbobbins
June 4, 2009 7:52 PM
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Remember that your GM warranty is actually a debt that GM owes you. In bankruptcy, GM does not have to repay this debt (i.e. service your vehicle). You do, however, have to keep making your car payment. With that in mind, WHO in their right mind would buy a GM product? So we're supposed to go to the government to fix our cars? Have you lost your mind? Try dealing with the IRS, the courts, public healthcare clinics or any other government agency and see how long you wait and the quality of service you get. Then remember that you while you could sue a carmaker in court, you can't sue Uncle Sam.

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AMetamorphosis
June 4, 2009 8:00 PM
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5 things to know if you bought GM or Chrysler


1. You over paid for your sub-standard automobile.
2. Your automobile will break down faster than a Toyota, Mazda or Honda.
3. You didn't really \" buy American \" since almost all automobile companies operate in a GLOBAL economy.
4. Your stuck with an automobile backed by the US Gub'ment ( need I say more ? )
5. You've paid twice for that car with all the billions of our tax dollars that were lent to these fossils.

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tokenfemale
June 6, 2009 12:45 AM
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@AMetamorphosis: Not only are you wrong, but your points are contradictory (see number 3 and 4) and don't make sense (I don't know what you mean by number 5, I pay taxes no matter what car I own).

I own a Saturn (fully paid off, which I'm quite proud of). Don't even TRY to say that I overpaid for my car. I didn't...because it's a SATURN. This is my second saturn, and I love it. Been great for me, hasn't had any major issues, and is almost 6 yrs old. All I want is for someone to be able to keep giving it oil changes and I'll be peachy. Based on the info linked from this article, I think I'll be fine.

I love my Saturn, love the brand, and am glad someone's buying them. It'll be better off when it isn't part of GM.

Meanwhile, my sister bought a Honda back in January, and hasn't gone a month without having it in the shop for at least a week.

How exactly is she better off?

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BlazerUnit
June 5, 2009 5:08 AM
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@AMetamorphosis: You're not helping anybody with this post.

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Black-Cat
June 8, 2009 8:23 AM
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@BlazerUnit: Seems to me like he is helping quite a bit. He is helping to re-enforce the fact that buying an Chevy or Dodge vehicle is one of the dumbest things a person could. And as for American built, it's quite obvious that most people don't know that all three Japanese car companies have plants here that make the cars and employ Americans; like Smyrna Tenn. If it wasn't Nissan moving there, people would still be having sex with their family members and not working.

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Anonymous
June 5, 2009 4:19 AM
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I own a 2009 Dodge Ram. Quality vehicle... solid design, good ride, excellent feature set... even with the new suspension and redesigned front grille, it's still a bloody solid vehicle. I expect to get many years of service out of this one as I've gotten out of all my Rams. I didn't \"buy american\" I bought the best truck for my dollar. Toyota and Nissan can't touch the Ram. That's just a simple fact of their target audience. No offense to their owners... it's just a different market (though they are trying to tap into that market with their full-size trucks.)

@AMetamorphosis: some advice for your list:

buy a truck. No, really. They're designed better, built better and last longer than any car. Buy a Tacoma or Frontier if you're worried about your carbon footprint.

Also, it would be a good idea to stop relying on conjecture and pop-culture references to pretend you've made a more intelligent choice by not buying a GM/Chrysler/Ford. It's just no becoming of an intelligent car buyer such as yourself. :) In other words, the schtick's getting old.

It's not the \"Gub'ment\" anymore. Obama's in charge. He's the one running the show.

And it's true, Japan props up its auto industry when it goes south (Nissan anyone? Nearly disappeared in the early 90's under crushing debt and substandard model choices... sound familiar?) Anyhow... this bailout is our response (albeit WAY too late) to the oft-discussed problem of GM's crushing obligations. Chrysler was buttsurfed by D-benz and the Germans milked that dry. (And tried to take Jeep with them to boot.) So, we know where they stood in terms of never getting any updated designs after the 300, and their car line missing the \"merger of equals\". Their trucks are still solid performers, even in a gas-starved economy because they just work well. :) Except if you ask a Ford owner. :)

So, lighten up... the world will acknowledge your superior choice in cars one day... until then, you don't have to put on a false aura of smug when referring to Chrysler and GM. And I'm not stuck with an automobile.. So, no... don't say anymore.

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Black-Cat
June 8, 2009 8:17 AM
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It really only boils down to one thing: will you get fucked? The answer is yes. Just go ahead and bend over now for the pounding.

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