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ajlei

May 29, 2009 4:09 AM

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Working at a bookstore, I'm surprised we don't have something like that. God knows we have the regulars who buy the books, presumably read them, return them saying they changed their mind, and repeat the following week. Providing they have their receipt, there really isn't a lot we can do. But hello people, bookstores != libraries.

19 replies

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anduin

May 30, 2009 7:11 AM

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@ajlei:
haha my brother did this for like 5 years at chapters/coles. He didnt bend the pages or the books spine enough to make it look like it had been used more than 1-2 openings.

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Anonymous

May 29, 2009 7:06 PM

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@ajlei: @ajlei: I've seen high school/college age kids at one local bookstore sitting at a table with a stack of books apparently writing a paper or doing homework. I'm seriously doubting that they bought the books they were using. It just amazed me that someone would do that at a bookstore. I expect to see that at a library, and I can almost accept people sitting around reading for pleasure at the bookstore, but I cannot imagine people sitting there doing research with books they have not (and probably will not) purchase. Yet there they were.

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May 29, 2009 4:13 PM

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@ajlei: As a customer, I'd rather have people do that than sit in the aisles and read. We've got a little Waldenbooks, and I don't know how many times I've nearly tripped over some little pissant in the manga aisle.

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May 29, 2009 1:36 PM

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@ajlei: I work in a bookstore as well. The problem with the company I work for is that there's coffee shops within the bookstore. Customers take the books to the coffee shop, sip and spill their coffee on the books, then return it to the shelf. THANKS! Annoys me every time.

But I've seen plenty of the same thing,customers reading books and coming back to exchange them a day later. Except our store hasn't pushed too many people away because our manager thinks it's bad customer service. She'd rather keep them coming in and happily exchanging books all the time. What the hell, I know.

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Eyebrows McGee (now with double the baby!)

May 29, 2009 2:38 PM

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@ChChChacos: Some stores have found this practice (letting people read-and-return, or read in store) increases sales. Apparently most of the folks doing it are poor college students or poor book lovers who eventually go on to have money and are now devoted customers and want to actually OWN the books.

I suppose it would depend on the demographic of your read-and-returners.

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May 29, 2009 11:41 AM

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@ajlei: I completely agree with something like this in a bookstore where it's a little hard to tell. I have had to return books and tried to do it immediately so I didn't get looked at funny. It was legit but I still worried.

However you can't really wear shoes and return them without noticing. Unless there's hours of prep work prior, the shoes are going to wear down. I bought a pair of Fit Flops and within the first 30 minutes of wearing them just in the living room, (and sitting down a lot), my foot had already left a visible outline.

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Rachacha

May 29, 2009 11:19 AM

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@ajlei: You could try an see if they are reading the book by asking them an obscure question about the book, or telling them that your favorite part was___________.

I am waiting for the day when bookstores have a sample copy on the shelf that people can pick up and skim, but when you want to purchase, there is a tamper seal across the book (ala the labels that are on CD case spines) that will let you know when the book has been opened.

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EYESONLY

June 1, 2009 5:00 AM

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@Rachacha: This is already how many textbooks are sold, but it would be a problem for ordinary books, since most bookstores aren't big enough to stock more than one copy of every single book they sell. Guess they could do it with the big sellers though (bestsellers, mass-market things, etc.).

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May 31, 2009 3:04 AM

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@Rachacha: that would be sweet!

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merist

May 29, 2009 2:35 PM

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I remember when a new Borders opened up in my town. It doesn't help that they have those big comfy chairs, but one saturday afternoon, I walked in and saw a family of four. Mom and Dad sitting in the big comfy chairs and the two kids on the floor in front of them each reading books (The kids had a stacks of them.) I was thinking WTF? Is this their living room?

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June 1, 2009 4:42 AM

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Oh, I've totally been guilty of that. I looove bookstores, and I especially love places like Borders where I can sip a coffee and read a book for awhile. My guess is, the store wants people to do that. It's such a comfortable atmosphere that people end up staying around longer, and eventually buying more -- at least that's what I end up doing.

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redskull

May 29, 2009 8:22 PM

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@merist: Exactly! I see this all the time. If bookstores don't want people treating them like a library, then perhaps they should do away with the plush chairs & the \"stay as long as you want and read the whole book for free\" policy.

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ShrikumariAmphisbaena

May 29, 2009 2:45 PM

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@merist: What you don't understand, is that Borders wants this to happen. You get the family in the store, they read the books, decide they want a coffee, a couple hot chocolates for the kids, maybe dad gets a scone. They just made $30. If they didn't want people to lounge in the store and read the material, they wouldn't have a coffee shop and chairs.

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calquist

May 29, 2009 6:11 PM

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@ShrikumariAmphisbaena: Yep, my old bookstore had no coffee shop and also not a single place to sit down. No public bathroom either (because we kept stock in the employee one).

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May 29, 2009 8:45 AM

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@ajlei: sadly, libraries are underfunded and rarely get the new releases any time close to their actual release date. So people turn the bookstore into a library. Of course, they could just read the book in the store and save you the hassle.

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quail

May 29, 2009 6:07 PM

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@bobcatred: Ever since libraries decided to become technology hubs, they have let new book purchases slide. In the late 70's I remember our local library would have a list of new books on order and would take your name on the waiting list for them. These were books that were being bought only a few months after their publication.

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sponica

May 29, 2009 3:49 PM

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@bobcatred: the town i grew up in had an awesome library...and the \"friends of\" the library were always on top of things. I remember putting my name on the waiting list for The Lost World when the book came out.
Now the town I live in...we had set aside a fun to update the library and the voters decided that we didn't need a new one and raided the trust fund to pay for other things. Last budget meeting someone said libraries were irrelevant, what with everyone having the internet...

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anduin

May 30, 2009 7:19 AM

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@sponica:
thats sad, if one thing Edmonton does (Canada) well is we have great libraries, movies, games, even these online suggestion boxes where you can suggest a book for them to get and 9/10 if its informative or interesting they'll get it in quantities of 5 or more (for the entire city). People don't give libraries enough credit for what they do for the community because the one's in their communities are just not properly equipped to make a difference. THe one near my home is especially PACKED around rush hour in the afternoons.

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Woden501

May 29, 2009 1:43 PM

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@bobcatred: Yeah for some that is true. My local library though is well supported by the community, and gets pretty much everything on the release date. Hell, they even have blu-rays, Xbox 360, PS3, PS2, and Wii games on top of a rather large DVD collection. If more communities would support their libraries like we do then they would be able to do that too, but some just can't afford to and sadly others just don't care...

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ajlei

May 29, 2009 10:07 AM

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@bobcatred: It seems like here (Portland) they seem to be doing pretty well. The one by my house always has a giant selection of new stuff, so maybe it's just a regional thing.

The thing about customers coming in and reading in-store is that sometimes they cause so much damage to the book (like trying to lay a mass market flat) or bend/tear the jacket on a new book that we have to damage out that book anyway.

Being a book person long before I worked in a bookstore, it appalls me how little care people use with books, especially if they aren't theirs. And of course, the same people who bend/tear up the store copies are the ones demanding a 20% discount because the dust jacket on the white book they want has some stray marks.

Actually, I'd better stop now before I really get going.

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JayDeEm

May 29, 2009 5:15 AM

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@ajlei: I had a friend back in high-school who used to do the same thing with computer games. This was before he had a drivers license, and well before they started tracking that kind of thing. Eventually he got a bad reputation in that store and they started denying him on returns.

It's a little creepy in a way, but I understand why retailers do this. I did my time in retail and saw my share of habitual returners. We would also get a lot of 'renters'... i.e. Buy camcorder, film wedding, return camcorder.

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barty

May 30, 2009 5:31 AM

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@JayDeEm: Radar detectors and FRS radios (when they were still relatively pricey 9-10 years ago) might as well have been sold with rubber bands when I worked at RadioShack back in the day. If someone came into the store wanting to buy a radar detector right before a big trip, anyone working on commission would usually hand off the sale to the manager so that when it came back (and they did about 90% of the time, usually returned to a store at the person's destination) at least it didn't go against the sales persons' commissions later. Usually the manager would take care of the sales people by transferring a sale to them later on. In the end it all worked out fairly well and was about the best we could do against the renting problem.

We argued that the return periods on certain items should be shortened or restocking fees implemented specifically to discourage this type of behavior, but it fell on deaf ears.

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Travis Estell

May 29, 2009 6:06 AM

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@JayDeEm: Even worse than \"renting\"... when I worked at a grocery store, one woman would always want a refund for meat that she bought and had already eaten. She'd buy some steaks, grill them, eat them, and enjoy them--and then come back and ask for a refund because they were \"dry\" or some other nonsense. She wouldn't bring anything back into the store except for her receipt. I let it slide a few times, but when it became clear that she was just out to get free steaks, I reported her to the store manager and they cracked down on her.

I mean, realistically, if all of the meat from our store was consistently _that_ bad, why did she continue to buy it from us? Because she got away with getting it for free for so long.

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Daniels

May 29, 2009 3:40 PM

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@Travis Estell: Yep -- the grocery store I used to work in had a \"double your money back\" policy on meat the customer didn't like. That people have the gall to come back with the wrapper and ask for double their money back used to astound me.

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May 29, 2009 3:25 PM

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@Travis Estell: Ah, the Pig Head story.

My roomie's a butcher, and some lady had them order a hogs head (not normal fare) just for her. She paid for it, took it home, stewed it, and then brought it back (pretty much just a skull at that point) and returned it, just because the cashiers/front end manager couldn't tell the difference between a stewed and non-stewed pig head, and just the fact that grocery stores will do returns on almost anything, sadly.

Full hogs heads aren't super cheap, either, and the meat department had to eat the loss. My roomie couldn't decide whether to be pissed or laugh his ass off.

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Eldritch

May 29, 2009 4:51 AM

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@ajlei: Same here. I turn people away at my bookstore for it all the time.

","

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Lucky225

May 29, 2009 4:12 AM

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Wal-Mart does this if you *DON'T* have a receipt, however if the purchase was done via credit card I would just charge the company back as it's somewhat a violation of the card agreement since you don't need ID for credit card transactions. Some States also have laws also prohibit this scanning of driver license information. I think a class action law suit is in order for 'The Retail Equation', they may be getting away with this since it's only done on returns which might have some legal grey area loophole regarding Merchant Agreements/State laws, but this is ridiculous. By the way if Wal-Mart uses the same system, this system is beatable in many States simply by getting a State ID and a State Driver license if your State assigns 2 different ID numbers for ID and License, I do it all the time at Wal-Mart with my Texas ID and DL, if too many returns on the TX DL, I just go to another Wal-Mart and show my ID instead, works like a charm.

9 replies

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May 29, 2009 2:31 PM

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@Lucky225: So....are you buying dresses and returning them after the prom or *what*?

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Todd Miller

May 29, 2009 1:35 PM

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@Lucky225: Seems to me that if you're returning that much stuff at Wally World you got issues....

Personally, no one scans my driver's license for any reason.

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Lucky225

May 30, 2009 7:54 PM

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Hey don't hate, if I don't feel like buying tools, I rent them from wally world ;)

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May 29, 2009 7:29 AM

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@Lucky225: I believe Target has a similar policy that if you don't have a receipt, they'll need to see your ID.

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heybtbm

May 29, 2009 7:10 PM

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@krunk4ever:
If you don't have your receipt at Target...you're not returning anything.

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May 29, 2009 5:17 AM

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@Lucky225: WalMart doesn't scan in your entire license, they just enter your license number. They don't even enter your name. (Unless they've changed things recently.)

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Lucky225

May 29, 2009 6:13 AM

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@Don't take anything aaron8301 says seriously:

Hence why one ID w/ one number and a DL with another worx ;)

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rinse

May 29, 2009 6:34 AM

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@Lucky225: How many things are you returning at Wal-Mart...?

I'm reminded of this one time I was behind this one guy at Wal-Mart, and he was returning everything he needed for the weekend camping trip he must have just had. It was so blatant it actually made me angry -- for Wal-Mart!

Hope you're not one of those assholes that make retailers treat the rest of us the way they do on returns.

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May 29, 2009 4:33 AM

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@Lucky225: That seems like a lot of work and license/ID fees just to be able to return stuff.

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KidU

May 29, 2009 2:44 PM

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@Laura Northrup: Walmart is one of the few places that allows you to return items without a receipt. I have a friend (I know that sounds cliched, but I am being serious) that abuses this all of the time. We were going with some friends on spring break, and he said he needed to stop at WalMart to get groceries. So we stop, and he pulls out a bunch of videogames and software he got for free through a Microsoft survey program. He then went to the customer service desk, \"returned\" the games for $200, and bought his groceries. And THAT is why stores scan your license; too many people scam. Same reason places like Gamestop ask for names/numbers on trade-ins; they want to stop flippers/dealers from exploiting the system.

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May 29, 2009 7:09 PM

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Regarding Gamestop, some states and municipalities require them to operate under the same set of laws that regulate pawn shops, which are almost always required to take personal information so that if anything they receive is later reported stolen, they can give the info to the cops.

","

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Bruce

May 29, 2009 4:19 AM

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I'm sorry, I don't have my driver's license on me, how about my concealed carry permit, would that work for ya?!?

7 replies

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May 30, 2009 5:33 AM

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@Bruce: Thank you for the good laugh, man. That was great.

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May 29, 2009 11:49 AM

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@Bruce: I have often been tempted to hand over my Delaware CCDW permit as a photo ID. However, The only people who instantly recognize what it is are cops.
It has only a photo and the state seal on the front; one must read the back to figure out that it permits me to carry a concealed deadly weapon.
Carry permits are so rare in this state that it would first confuse a store clerk, and then (as their lips slowly moved through the text on the back) frighten or intimidate them. With my luck, they would interpret it as a robbery attempt.

In general, I avoid handing people a note that says \"I have a gun.\"

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May 29, 2009 5:19 AM

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@Bruce: I need not reveal I have a CCW permit - the holstered pistol on my hip gives it away.

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DH405

May 29, 2009 5:37 AM

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@Don't take anything aaron8301 says seriously: The key part of a CCW is the first C. Conceal. You're obligated to keep it HIDDEN.

If you're going about showing everyone that you have a firearm, please stop owning guns. You give the rest of us a TERRIBLE name.

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Ben_Q2

May 31, 2009 2:30 AM

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Depends where I am at. I only have it on when I am working. No matter where I go they know I have a weapon on me. As someone pointed out. Most people have no idea what a CCDW/CCW really is.

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May 29, 2009 2:31 PM

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@SMSDHubbard: ...Giving you a terrible name, how? It's legal for him to carry a gun, so....

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belch

May 29, 2009 7:12 AM

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@SMSDHubbard: As others have said open carry is legal in most places - in fact it's only completely outlawed in 7 states. www.opencarry.org/opencarry

Not to mention the fact that a permit, in most places, ALLOWS for concealed carry, but doesn't require it. Just like a drivers license allows for driving but doesn't require you to drive if you want to walk instead.

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MerryLifeAndaShortOne

May 29, 2009 7:01 AM

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Nothing really wrong with open carry. I do it fairly frequently. Of course, having a CCW makes it easier for me to carry a BUG as well! Of course, living in AZ, its not a huge deal, until the snowbirds come in from places like California. Besides, what kind of criminal OC's? Not too many, most prefer to hide.

Back to the topic: I'm wondering how the database is tracked. It seems strange to me that the stores have the capability to decode the magnetic stripe or the \"bar code\" (mine looks more like dots).

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dvdchris

May 30, 2009 5:44 AM

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@MerryLifeAndaShortOne: Actually, in Texas at least, the magnetic stripe seems to just store the information on the front in plain text in an easily readable format. Any mag stripe reader should be able to decode it.

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May 29, 2009 2:59 PM

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@MerryLifeAndaShortOne: Actually it makes perfect sense. The best deterent to good fake ID's / out of state ID's is to be able to tell the validity based on the magnetic strip. My local Circle K uses this for alcohol/tabacco/lottery purchases, and I've seen a few others do the same for age verification. I would wager state governments have embraced opening up at least some of the info to retailers.

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MerryLifeAndaShortOne

May 29, 2009 8:39 PM

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Thats understandable. I wonder if the computer tells them (cashier, barkeep, etc.) that the license is valid, or if it shows all the info, like address and such.

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sponica

May 29, 2009 3:51 PM

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@kamel5547: yeah i remember going to the bar/lounge around the corner from my brooklyn apartment and they scanned the ID.

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Skaperen

May 29, 2009 6:51 AM

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@SMSDHubbard: If open carry is legal in his jurisdiction, he's doing nothing wrong. Some states (I forget now, but I never lived in them so I didn't need to remember) allow open carry without permit and concealed carry with permit.

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SpruceStreetPhil - in a new Pine flavor

May 29, 2009 12:55 PM

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@Skaperen: Virginia's one of the few bastions of open carry left on this coast.

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zentex

May 29, 2009 4:23 AM

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@Bruce: a smart CCW holder doesn't let on that they hold such a document ;-)

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Bruce

May 31, 2009 6:17 AM

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@zentex: Not when you're open carrying.... :)

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May 29, 2009 4:47 AM

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Good advice - advertise you have a CCW and your nickname becomes 'Target'.

The only time I have ever used my CCW as an ID was when I was buying some DVDs at Media Play (remember them?) and the extremely snotty clerk demanded my ID along with my credit card. And no, I didn't do or say anything to bring it on.

Amazing how her attitude immediately did a 180... my friend and I were surprised she didn't get whiplash!

","","

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Anonymous

May 29, 2009 4:24 AM

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JCrew tried to get my driver's license two years ago when I tried to return an unworn pair of pants with the receipt. I refused to give it over. I had the receipt along with the original credit card, and I was happy to give them another ID card with my photo on it... but they said they needed a \"government issued ID\", like a driver's license or passport. Are they CRAZY?

After I refused to play along with it (not having a specific reason, but just wanting to stand up against this surveillance/anti-privacy creep in our society), they got the manager, who quickly took the pants and credited my card. She never did explain why they needed a gov't-issued ID, but insisted that it was indeed store policy. I haven't bought an other thing at JCrew since.

2 replies

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Amish Undercover

May 29, 2009 3:43 PM

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@CecilCynortas: nice work. if companies aren't up front about their policies of collecting info, don't let them!

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May 29, 2009 1:59 PM

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@CecilCynortas: The funny thing is - for most states - the driver's license is a permit to drive and not based on \"foundation information\" (therefore NOT intended as an identification document). You could probably get a driver's license in some states easier than you could a credit card.

","","

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May 29, 2009 4:35 AM

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I smell a lawsuit down the road somewhere.

Where does it state that I could only return an item x number of times? Is this magic number expressed or implied anywhere when the original purchase is made? What if I have legitimate reasons for all the returns and is within the stores' policies?- is that inputted into this system? And why should the number of returns I made to another retailer have any bearing??

This seems rather draconian and is a huge invasion of privacy. If a customer has a return that's well within the stores' guidelines, then what's the problem?

7 replies

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May 30, 2009 8:07 PM

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@Neurotic1: The Uniform Commercial Code governs returns. Stores do not have to allow you to return anything.

If the store does allow returns it may set its own policies. The policies may require identification, heck they may require that you hop on your left foot when you make the return.

There is absolutely no right to return anything. Simply changing your mind will not get you a chargeback. If an item is defective -if it is not fit for its particular purpose that is another story, but simply returning something because you don't want it or because you changed your mind is a courtesy retailers extend to you and as the economy deteriorates the policies become more restrictive.

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barty

May 30, 2009 5:42 AM

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@Neurotic1: A lawsuit for what? Because a business takes steps to identify people who are blatantly abusing their return policies does not give someone any footing to file suit against that business.

I worked in a retail store where at some locations their return rate was as high as 30% of their sales. While the company-wide average was much, much less, these stores became the focus of the loss-prevention department while I was working there and actually uncovered a couple of theft rings.

Even where no criminal activity was attached, chronic returners usually return items in a condition that cannot be resold as new. As anyone can attest to, trying to get things back into a package from the way they were originally can be a chore in itself. Even then, we'd often get things back with cords stuffed into boxes unbundled, manuals missing, etc.. Even if the item itself had no obvious signs of use, getting someone to pay a new price for it was often a challenge.

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SabreDC

May 30, 2009 3:55 PM

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@barty: Let's not forget that these systems also track positives, not just the negative \"scamming\" possibilities. For example, if a specific item is returned 65% of the time, the retailer might expect that the item is not up to standards and they don't want to be associated with it to prevent future embarrassment, thus they sell a similar item from a different manufacturer or work out issues with their existing manufacturers.

I agree with all the posts that retailers should not have any right whatsoever to require government-issued ID unless that ID is specifically issued for this purpose (i.e. not a permit to drive or travel abroad like one post mentioned above) unless it is readily available to consumers (and I don't mean one 8x10 sign in the corner of the store behind the housewares) so they can choose not to shop there.

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dave_coder

May 29, 2009 1:50 PM

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@Neurotic1: Many people also rent. They buy things like a camera or laptop and return them a week later.

Don't forget that most retailers have a clause that says: \"We reserve the right to refuse any returns\". For good reason.

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drb023

May 29, 2009 7:29 AM

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@Neurotic1: They can also just stop selling to you, and then you won't have anything to return.

But the problem is with chronic returners, not just average customers. They cause retailers to lose big bucks.

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May 29, 2009 5:20 AM

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@Neurotic1: DING DING DING!

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May 29, 2009 5:17 AM

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@Neurotic1: Some people do it to get the free \"rewards\" you get from spending X amount of money. I have a friend who worked at Circuit City, and he said people would buy hundreds of dollars worth of electronics, get the free $100 gift card or whatever in the mail, and then return everything.

I imagine that just about everyone who's NOT scamming the system like this doesn't return things often enough to set off any alarms.

","

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rambow681

May 29, 2009 4:36 AM

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I wonder if you could tell them you don't drive and offer up your passport as a form of government issued ID instead.

5 replies

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Skater009

May 29, 2009 9:53 PM

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@rambow681: Not

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Etoiles

May 29, 2009 1:33 PM

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@rambow681: I used to work retail in NYC. There are a lot of folks without a driver's license in Manhattan and although many of them have the non-driver's state IDs that are more or less identical, a startling number -- both US citizens and foreign nationals -- use their passports as an everyday ID.

(I worked at GameStop, and when taking in trades we were subject to the NYC pawn shop laws, so we had to check and record ID for all of those transactions.)

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Camron

May 29, 2009 6:25 AM

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@rambow681: I tried using a passport once at Target (before I got my California driver's license). The customer service associate told me that Target records your driver license ID# if you don't have a receipt and thus would not be able to process a return without either a receipt or driver's license (or presumably an ID card).

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91004

May 29, 2009 5:27 AM

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Actually if Retail stores follow the same law as the banks, they must accept any form of available \"Government\" ID such as Drivers License, CCW Permit, Military ID, Passport, etc.......

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SabreDC

May 30, 2009 3:57 PM

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@91004: Interesting. I think I will take my voter registration card with me next time that only has my name and address on it (which is as much as they can get from the credit card company). I've seen some stores require government-issued *photo* ID, but I've also seen some that only require government-issued ID.

","

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PatrickIs2Smart

May 29, 2009 4:36 AM

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This happened to us one time while on vacation in CA. Our situation was a little different though. The VA license doesn't have a mag-strip on the back, but a barcode instead. When we went to return some stuff, the girl kept trying to slide my driver's license through her terminal, but it obviously wasn't working. I tried to tell her that it wouldn't read like a CA license would, but she insisted that that's how the register worked. A few minutes later she gave in and had to have her manager walk her through overriding the process.

5 replies

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June 1, 2009 7:04 PM

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@PatrickIs2Smart: \"The VA license doesn't have a mag-strip on the back, but a barcode instead.\"

My DL has a mag-stripe on the back, but it doesn't work for some reason. Whenever I get a new license, I store it in a special drawer for \"seasoning.\"

Said drawer contains a cornucopia of magnets (most of them rare-earth). Data goes in, but noise comes out ;)

Remember also that a 2-d barcode ([bit.ly]) can become useless with \"accidental,\" repeated dotting with a fine-point sharpie.

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May 29, 2009 8:53 AM

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@PatrickIs2Smart: Geez... I bet she's one of those cashiers. You know the ones, if your bill is $15.76 and you give them $16.01, they freak out and try to hand you the penny back.

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ajlei

May 29, 2009 10:14 AM

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@bobcatred: I always get the opposite of that.. I'll get a customer whose total is something like $12.25 and they'll give me two $5's, four $1's, and 75 cents.

Okay, so that particular situation only happened once, but I was perplexed as hell. I was trying to think what possible reason they could have to count out that much when they clearly had exactly $12.25 already. I ended up giving the lady back the extra $2.50, she took it back with an \"I'm not sure why you're giving this back to me but I like money!\" sort of look.

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Rachacha

May 29, 2009 11:26 AM

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@ajlei: Perhaps she was the cashier that bobcatred mentioned!

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May 29, 2009 5:17 AM

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@PatrickIs2Smart: When I first moved to California, I still had my Illinois ID. It was downright perplexing to most people who looked at it.

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Eyebrows McGee (now with double the baby!)

May 29, 2009 2:39 PM

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@ULTRAPRISON!: Heh. I got accused of having a fake when I presented my Illinois ID for something while visiting California.

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puka_pai

May 30, 2009 8:42 AM

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@Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!): Congrats on the baby. Welcome to the world, Wee McGee!

When I came to Texas to visit my parents after they moved here, I wrote a check at Wal-Mart. Or tried to, anyway. They had no problem with the out-of-state check but the cashier absolutely refused to take my military dependent ID as one of the two forms of identification they required for an out-of-state check. So did her manager. \"I've never seen an ID like this before (really?!?) and I don't know how to tell if it's fake.\" First off, that's a stupid thing to say to a customer. Secondly, oh I dunno, maybe the hologram on the laminated sleeve might give you a clue? Especially if you compare it to the handout that's laminated to the counter right in front of you that shows valid forms of ID.

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May 30, 2009 12:17 PM

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@puka_pai: It's more fun when it's the TSA saying your Florida pre-magstripe driver's license is invalid when the issuing authority (Florida) has no problem with it. *****ing idiots. If they can't even determine a real gov't-issue ID from a fake one, there's a snowball's chance of them actually finding a real bomb. I guess The War Against Water continues for this very reason.

","

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WillG

May 29, 2009 4:38 AM

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Last time I was asked for my license to be scanned my reply was \"I'm sorry it's against my policy to let you scan my license.\" The clerk looked like he was going to argue the point but I just looked directly at his eyes till he looked away and completed the transaction.
Ya, it was kinda mean, I am 6'2 and around 270.

4 replies

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May 29, 2009 5:01 PM

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@WillG: I wonder what would have happened if the statement was \"I'm sorry it's against my religion to let you scan my license.\"?

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Daniels

May 29, 2009 3:45 PM

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@WillG: Wow, you bullied a minimum-wage cashier for stating his employer's policy. Color us all super-impressed.

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May 29, 2009 8:25 PM

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How did he bully him exactly? All he did was state his policy and didn't flinch. The clerk could've just told him to gtfo

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SabreDC

May 30, 2009 4:00 PM

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@trujunglist: Textbook definition of \"intimidation\". If the OP didn't intent to intimidate the clerk, why would he have made a point to mention his size and the fact that it was \"mean\"?

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dave_coder

May 29, 2009 1:51 PM

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@WillG: Good for you. Your a big man now sir.

","

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May 29, 2009 4:43 AM

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When you make returns at Walmart, Target, and other stores they take your license number also, so they can track to make sure you aren't \"returning\" things you didn't actually \"purchase\" on a frequent basis.

5 replies

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humphrmi

May 29, 2009 5:10 AM

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@morganlh85: OK that doesn't make sense, unless you left something out. I can see swiping DL's to compare your identity against a known scammer database (I don't agree with it, but I can see it.) But making sure you aren't returning something you didn't purchase? How does swiping a DL help that? They don't swipe your license when you buy it, so how would they match up what you bought (especially cash) with what you returned just based on your drivers license?

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May 29, 2009 5:03 PM

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@humphrmi: Problem was the vast amounts of bar code switching scammers who returned items for gift cards and then resold the cards for 50% of value in cash.

I really do not see how this works with the various people involved in illegal immigration who get often get fake id's for work purposes...

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SabreDC

May 30, 2009 4:03 PM

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@econobiker: Actually, a lot of illegal immigrants get completely legal IDs. Maryland, for example, is extremely lenient on illegal immigration. CASA of Maryland lobbies the government often to allow \"undocumented\" immigrants to maintain a driver's licenses. Even Governor O'Malley supports it.

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Bradford Johnson

May 29, 2009 2:19 PM

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@humphrmi: He means you could go into Walmart, STEAL an item (or just walk out the front door like I've heard of people doing with TVs), and then the next day try to return it without a receipt.

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Skaperen

May 29, 2009 6:56 AM

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@humphrmi: Read the complete sentence, including the \"on a frequent basis\" part. Some stores may just have their own database instead of using a shared one. If you have a pattern of too many returns, they begin to refuse the returns. It's then up to you to press the issue. If they feel you're not a worthy customer at that point, they can ask that you never return to their store. I don't know if they can tell the difference between someone that returns 1 in 20 items or 100 in 2000 items, though. The latter person might get more attention while actually being a better customer. If they do this with the credit card used for payment, maybe they can see it.

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wardawg

May 29, 2009 6:20 AM

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@humphrmi: Don't worry, big brother knows.

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smr13

May 29, 2009 4:50 AM

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I actually work for Finish Line. The Return policy is clearly stated on the back of each receipt, saying an ID must be presented for any Return/Exchange. Only managers can do returns. So the manager should have explained the reason she was scanning the ID. I always make sure I let the customer have an idea of why I am scanning their ID.

I agree scanning your ID seems like an invasion of privacy of some sort, however, it's no different than someone asking for your name and address(and drivers license number I suppose). The magnetic strip or the barcode on the back doesn't have any other special information than that.

11 replies

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Kimberly Gist-Collins

May 29, 2009 11:59 PM

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@smr13: What if I have a policy of not allowing people to scan my license? We could all print out a policy on a piece of paper that is our own official policy and hand it to the cashier to let them know that it is our policy not to show our license.

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May 30, 2009 8:10 PM

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@Kimberly Gist-Collins: Then you don't get to return the item.

Nothing other than a merchants largesse allows you to return anything. Once you have purchased something it is yours. There is no 'right' to return things.

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SabreDC

May 30, 2009 4:06 PM

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@Kimberly Gist-Collins: Yes. And include a receipt showing policy. In fact, there should be a single consumer policy that we can all show when we conduct business transactions. Of course, by the very rights that we claim to hold, we would be mandated to show it to all stores before they conduct business with us so they can back out prior to conducting transactions.

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smr13

May 30, 2009 12:44 AM

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@Kimberly Gist-Collins: Ok, well I would agree with your stance, but there's the fact that you wouldn't be returning or exchanging anything.

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May 29, 2009 2:32 PM

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@smr13: How does \"return policy on receipt\" work in those states where the return policy (sensibly) has to be accessible to the consumer before the purchase?

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smr13

May 30, 2009 12:42 AM

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@floraposte: Companies usually have handouts available at the register or something near the register to see. I know at our store, the return policy is right next to the register.

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May 29, 2009 2:48 PM

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@floraposte: I'm sure a clerk wouldn't mind hitting the button on the receipt printer that will churn out blank paper, tear off a piece, and let you read the policy. I don't know about Finish Line, but a lot of stores also have the return policy on a sign behind the registers.

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ehlaren

May 29, 2009 1:45 PM

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@smr13: Guess what, there is a diffference between \"ID must be presented\" and giving your ID to be scanned into a huge database and used in ways known and unknown.

\"it's no different than someone asking for your name and address\" is an incorrect statement. You are not going to remember my name and address, what I returned, and every other piece of information on there for all eternity like a computer database is. Also, it is NOT just your name and address. In my state it is every single thing except my social security number.

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smr13

May 30, 2009 12:40 AM

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@ehlaren: By saying \"it's no different than someone asking for your name and address\", I was stating that the information would be stored. I was simply stating that knowing someone's address and storing it and scanning an ID where the same information is there is no different.... Other than a driver's license number and a date of birth.

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shepd

May 29, 2009 1:40 PM

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What say I hand over a birth certificate? That's class A ID right there and there's no barcode, magstripe, or RFID to copy.

It also tells you nothing more than I'd already tell you, apart from my city of birth.

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SacraBos

May 29, 2009 1:12 PM

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@smr13: The Magstrip typically has name, address, date-of-birth, DL#, and some other tidbits. You know, enough information to likely do some identify theft should someone want to forge your ID.

If they want to track over-returns, use the name and (partial) CC number (or a hash of the CC#). They have that for the purchase, and the return, and that's all they should need.

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dougyfresh

May 29, 2009 5:04 AM

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I dunno this doesn't bug me too much. Even if an unscrupulous person tries using my OLN most law enforcement officers will still ask for bio information from the dispatcher if the DL is not in possession.

Oh and that Ed guy sure is cute in the picture ;)

1 replies

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Skater009

May 29, 2009 9:52 PM

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@dougyfresh: @WillG:

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ideagirl

May 29, 2009 5:07 AM

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I don't allow my license to be scanned, and I have never had a problem. I show it to them, and say \"Please don't scan it.\" If they question me, I tell them I was a victim of identity theft and it shuts them up. I wasn't, but I am sure I will be if I let everyone scan my license on demand.

3 replies

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ecwis

May 30, 2009 3:41 AM

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@ideagirl: I just demagnatized my driver's license so if they do try to scan it, it won't work.

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LucyTuzy

May 29, 2009 5:18 PM

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@ideagirl: Agreed. I don't necessarily have a problem with a company knowing my name and address, etc. But how many times have we heard that XYZ Inc has lost a laptop containing all customer information blah blah blah? They can make all the policies they want, but I'm not about to hand over that info so it can be lost or stolen later down the line.

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May 29, 2009 10:55 AM

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@ideagirl: I like that idea.

I'm usually ok with letting them run the mag strip on the back (we used to do it at the bank all the time, so I've been able to see exactly what's on the strip). What I have a problem with is when the physically take the license, put it on a scanner, and keep that on file.

I went to a bar one time and that's their normal policy. \"In case something happens and we need to know who you are.\"

Once I started asking questions about their network, how it was secured, what kind of data encryption solutions they had, and what their privacy policy was, they just looked at me and \"deleted\" the file from their database.

Now, I don't mind showing my ID to prove that I'm of legal drinking age, but scanning the front and keeping it on file, well that's just a little too much info for a damn bar.

Needless to say, I've not been back.

","","

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May 29, 2009 5:13 AM

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On a related note:

When I visited my medical specialist last week they stated that a new FDA policy requires them to photocopy a photo ID and keep it on file. Anyone know what is up with this?

7 replies

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September 3, 2009 1:47 PM

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@SarcasticDwarf: I recently had an appointment with the eye doctor and had the same experience of being told I had to provide my ID for them to scan. I asked for some clarification and I believe that what the receptionist did was place my driver's license on a scanner and saved a jpg of it (as opposed to swiping the magnetic strip).

They told me that this was because of some recently-enacted legislation called the \"Red Flag Rule.\" I've been hoping Consumerist would do a story on this (hint, hint). I think basically the Red Flag Rule is saying that anyone who is issuing you credit needs to take some steps to verify that you're really who you say you are. (And medical providers, because they are usually paid weeks after the visit, apparently fall into that category.)

The part I'm not getting is how having my personal information input into even more databases is going to protect me from identity theft.

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May 29, 2009 6:54 PM

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@SarcasticDwarf: Why in the hell would the United States Food and Drug Administration need your license information?

Tell them that they must treat it like PHI under HIPAA, and you'd like to see the controls in place before you give it to them.

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May 29, 2009 5:06 PM

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@SarcasticDwarf: Alot of the info that the doctor's office gathers if often for pursuing you for a bad debt and not for health care issues. This could be related.

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realserendipity

May 29, 2009 5:43 AM

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@SarcasticDwarf: [philosecurity.org]
I found this link that says its an FTC rule not FDA.

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Chumas

May 29, 2009 2:03 PM

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@realserendipity: *pokes*
Tag, you're it. hehe

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realserendipity

May 29, 2009 4:29 PM

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@Chumas:
EEE!!!Your cyberstalking me! *waves* Hiya Chumas!

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May 29, 2009 5:33 AM

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@SarcasticDwarf: That's really odd. I just checked the FDA website and found nothing on an updated/new policy for this. In the case of insurance, a lot of them require a photocopy of the identification...but the FDA could really care less who you are.

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May 29, 2009 5:28 AM

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@SarcasticDwarf: I wasn't aware of that. The first time I visited my current doctor (I'd say two years ago or so), they made a copy of my license and my insurance card. They get a copy of my new insurance card each year the first time I go in that year. I didn't think anything of it, I just figured if they got an insurance audit they'd need backup that the insurance was being used by the person on the insurance card.

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Anonymous

May 29, 2009 5:17 AM

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I actually work for Finish Line. I usually always try to explain to the customer that I am scanning or swiping it because that's how the company keeps up with fraudulent returns/exchanges.

I agree scanning your ID sounds like an invasion of privacy, but it's really no different than just knowing your name and address(and your drivers license number I suppose).

2 replies

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May 31, 2009 5:22 AM

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@ZeemanMarcellus:
What a \"coincidence\" that the two \"Finish Line employees\" responses read almost exactly the same. Astroturf much?

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ehlaren

May 29, 2009 1:48 PM

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@ZeemanMarcellus: \"it's really no different than just knowing your name and address(and your drivers license number I suppose).\"

Wrong.

You don't remember this information in your head till the end of time.

The information on a lot of ID barcodes is way more then the number, your name, and address.

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tom2133

May 29, 2009 5:26 AM

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I used to work at Sports Authority and we used to have a system that we would have to scan IDs for all returns/exchanges. They used the system to track returns to see if customers were not \"wardrobing\" or buying stuff to return it later after wearing it. It really turned into a horrible privacy issue, and we stopped using it to track receipted returns. Instead, we changed the system to track receipted returns (to ensure that certain transactions aren't being returned over and over in different locations) and track non-receipted returns based off of the drivers license number. More than 3 in a year meant the return was denied.

As for Walmart/Target, etc. - they're drivers license info, from what I've learned, is used to limit non-receipted returns. Walmart only offers 3 non-receipted returns in a 6 month period.

2 replies

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bravo369

May 29, 2009 6:15 AM

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@tom2133: i think that's just stupid though. all the stores have those reward cards now and bug you to sign up. great, so i sign up and do all my shopping at sports authority. with more shopping inevitably comes more returns for whatever reason. so now i'm being denied legit returns after i've spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars in the store.

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May 29, 2009 1:54 PM

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@bravo369: Don't worry - they've likely done the math to know where to draw the line so valued consumers like your hypothetical customer aren't hung up.

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AndyMan1

May 29, 2009 5:40 AM

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Went to a United Artists movie theater, bought my ticket, and when none of my other friends showed up for the movie (boohoo), I went to return the ticket. They didn't ask for ID, but did ask me to fill out a form with my name, phone number, and signature. I refused to do so, they still let me return it. No hassle.

So first and foremost: just say no. I really don't see why I should be required to present any more information for undoing a purchase than what I presented when I made the purchase in the first place.

4 replies

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September 4, 2009 5:06 AM

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As jennybeth said, its not really required for the phone number just put your name and sign it. Its for corporate purposes to make sure there's no fraud going around. Employees aren't supposed to do refunds and if they do we can at least verify that its a real person by calling. Also it keeps managers in line as one manager at my location was fired for buying tickets on his credit card then refunding them out as cash (using the register like an ATM) while it all balanced out its still against policy and they caught him because he used fake names on the refund drafts.

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Jfielder

May 29, 2009 3:04 PM

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@AndyMan1: Dang, that's cold. Get some new friends!

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jennybeth

May 29, 2009 1:40 PM

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@AndyMan1: It's because your ticket was already torn and couldn't be processed as a straight void. When I worked at a Regal, we also had to write down the time the ticket was turned in - I guess to prevent people from watching the whole movie and then trying to get a refund.

I believe the Name/Phone number is on there so that corporate could call and ask why you refunded your ticket (problems in the theater, too hot/cold, not the right movie, etc.). However, I don't think that's actually done in practice.

I very rarely had time to get the customer to fill those things out - we either used fake names or our own to fill them out. Peter Parker and Clark Kent were frequently returning tickets at our theater :-)

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sponica

May 29, 2009 3:56 PM

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@jennybeth: We were able to do a post-void on ripped tickets at AMC and we could void out unripped tickets. Corporate always got mad when we confused the two...

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May 29, 2009 5:45 AM

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the rental yard I use scans your drivers license on a little scanner mounted on the side of the register. When you're leaving with a $1000 piece of equipment, they have found it cuts down on theft quite a bit.

1 replies

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May 29, 2009 9:00 AM

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@geoffhazel: That's a little different than being required to give your personal information (i.e. your id and all info associated with it) when you want to return a product that you purchased.

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May 29, 2009 6:16 AM

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because ed was so anal. i wasted 4 mins of my time reading this article when he could have googled it to find out why they swipped his liscense. sheetz swipes mine to buy tobbacco.

google is your friend:). its also a safeguard against junkies who just found that recipt in the trash and go in , steal the shoes and return them.

3 replies

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SabreDC

May 30, 2009 4:14 PM

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@mikells43: As long as they don't swipe for MTO, I'm happy as a clam.

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May 29, 2009 9:17 AM

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@mikells43: In theory, yes.

In reality, it may have a perfectly valid purpose, but it's not being handled well if the customer has to ask why you're swiping an ID AFTER it's swiped. Customers should be warned that their personal information is going to be stored in a database, possibly with a third party before they hand over the card.

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May 29, 2009 6:07 PM

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@bobcatred: Very little personal information is probably recorded. Most likely name and drivers license number.

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LatherRinseRepeat

May 29, 2009 6:28 AM

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I'm not sure about other states.. But here in CA, the drug stores (CVS, Walgreens, etc) scan your license whenever you purchase Sudafed and other OTC medication that contains pseudoephedrine.

From what I understand, they use that to track how much pseudoephedrine products you've purchased within \"X\" time frame. Cuz ya know.. They assume everyone that purchases Sudafed is operating a meth lab at home. *rolleyes*

7 replies

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Framling

May 29, 2009 8:40 PM

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@LatherRinseRepeat: They also have it behind the counter. Last time I bought it, I asked the guy at the counter if I'd get in trouble for making jokes about making meth, like at airport security. He said no, and that they do it all the time.

I didn't think to ask if he meant that they make jokes, or that they make meth.

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katieoh

May 29, 2009 2:11 PM

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@LatherRinseRepeat: As someone who worked in a pharmacy, I don't find it to be that absurd. They track the same things with controlled substances [Vicodin, etc, etc]

Idk, maybe it's just me, but I doubt you really need 200 tablets of pseudoephedrine in 2 weeks. You're up to something or your entire extended family is sick and you're buying the drugs for like 10 people. Meh.

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chatterboxwriting

May 30, 2009 10:29 AM

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@katieoh: I go through about 118 Sudafed in 2 weeks. I have had chronic severe sinus problems for years. If I don't take Sudafed exactly every four hours, I get such a bad sinus headache that I can't function and my entire day is shot as far as work, social activities, etc.

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SabreDC

May 30, 2009 4:19 PM

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@chatterboxwriting: You can definitely save a ton of money if you paid $200/month for a high deductible insurance plan (if you don't already have insurance) with a prescription copay of $10 or so and then go to the doctor to get a stronger, refillable prescription that lasts longer and doesn't require 118 doses in 2 week (but probably closer to 14-28). You're probably already paying about $12 per 20-pack of Sudafed...

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realserendipity

May 29, 2009 4:31 PM

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@katieoh:
Im not sure if the rules on controlled substances are the same countrywide (one would kind of hope so) but my local walgreens gives out the painkillers without an id and only verifies the address. THats wrong right?

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Stephmo

May 29, 2009 1:15 PM

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@LatherRinseRepeat: They do it in Ohio. Yes, I'm going to do crazy things with 48 tablets of sudafed!

Besides, I've been watching Breaking Bad - everyone knows you don't need sudafed anymore!

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May 29, 2009 12:47 PM

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@LatherRinseRepeat: What's funny are the number of stores that now have a \"policy\" in place for when someone doesn't have an ID that fits into their system. Bob from the photo department is going to look like one hell of a meth addict.

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May 29, 2009 9:30 AM

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@LatherRinseRepeat: That's federal law. If I recall correctly, it didn't have so much to do with the percentage of meth-heads to regular consumers, and more to do with the fact that meth labs have a nasty habit of blowing up and taking lots of people and property with them. Apparently giving druggies volatile chemicals to play with is a bad idea, who knew?

I have no idea if it's been successful or not in reducing the number of labs, or if it's just sent them overseas or what, but that was the idea at any rate.

","

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May 29, 2009 6:28 AM

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I appreciate that the submitter didn't harass the employees over it. A fair few folk turn hostile pretty darn quick when the ID request is made. Now, the 'policy' line is admittedly lame, should never be used, and I've tried to exorcise that word from my employees. The destiny of your ID information isn't any kind of trade secret. We have to look out for ourselves, too, same as anyone else.

5 replies

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I Love Christmas

December 27, 2011 4:20 AM

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Tuesday Morning Manager in SE Florida demanded my government ID to return items with the receipt (purchased 6 days prior). It is their recent \"Store Policy\" too.

I will purchase elsewhere.
....By the way, they refused my Florida CCW permit.
Refused again after I told them my fingerprints were needed for the permit.

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morlo

May 29, 2009 2:47 PM

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@ReverendBrown: Please post your driver's license info here. Or does that request bother you? Not what if I demand you post it or I'll take money out of your account? Feeling hostile yet?

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Skaperen

May 29, 2009 7:01 AM

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@ReverendBrown: So to avoid harassing the employees about it, ask for the manager.

Hey, if you (the store, not you personally) didn't need my ID to buy it, and didn't tell me I would need it for a return (before I pay for it), and you advertise that you do returns, then I say fraud. I might not even have an ID. Maybe I don't drive and took the bus to the store.

OK, so back to the manager. Faced with such a case, call the manager. If I'm a repeat returner without ID, the manager will recognize me.

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dave_coder

May 29, 2009 1:54 PM

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@Skaperen: The back of the receipt for the store in question actually says that you need ID to return something.

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smr13

May 29, 2009 1:30 PM

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@Skaperen: For example, if a customer gets the wrong size and realizes it 5 minutes after they do a purchase, we still have to scan the ID. It's pretty stupid, I agree, but there is no way around scanning an ID. We have people all the time who don't have IDs, but we cannot process the return unless they have an ID/Passport. If the customer complains about this, we cannot do anything because the system will not let continue without.

Also, managers are supposed to be the only ones doing returns anyways. So Ed was likely talking to a manager. And so if you are repeat returner, you're still going to need an ID.

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May 29, 2009 6:22 PM

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@smr13: Yes there is...people DON'T have to shop there and if the return is not made it could get you sued.

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smr13

May 30, 2009 12:55 AM

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@newfenoix: Uh, no... The manager on duty can determine whether any return can be accepted. The circumstance does not matter. It doesn't matter if you just bought a shoe 5 minutes ago, the manager has the right to decline the return. That's not likely at all, but the manager reserves the right to accept or deny any return.

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May 29, 2009 7:22 AM

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It occurs to me that the biggest concern is someone recreating my license with someone else picture to attempt to use it for illicit purposes (fraud, driving illegaly, etc..). Most concerning for me is the drivers license number itself. Anyone can throw an ID together, but making an ID that matches the address, name and ID number makes an ID that looks and feels legit. As far as I know those police laptops don't pull up your photo.

I live in Georgia and looked through the Georgia code pertaining to drivers licenses. I can find no mention of any definition of defacing or for that matter any section making defacing a license illegal, though im sure if one doesn't exist there is something general about \"official documents\".

I am not suggesting actually harming your license, but what about a little piece of coloured of opaque tape over the number to prevent it from being scanned in that can be easily removed to present to a law enforcement officer when needed? Or how about a sealed cellophane/plastic pouch with black over that part that can be easily ripped open to present to a law enforcement officer when needed?
Anyone have any information on the legality of that? The number doesn't mean anything to them, they cant cross reference it, they shouldn't care. All they should be interested in is my face, name, and address.
(Oh, and no way on earth would I let anyone scan my CCW permit, let alone present it to anyone other than a law enforcement officer)

1 replies

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Ronin-Democrat

May 29, 2009 1:38 PM

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@SidusNare:
They are scanning -reading- the magnetic strip on the license.

There was a story a few years back about a bar bouncer that was using the scanner data -name, address- to harass female customers..

I like the white lie a previous poster said -I was a victim of identity theft so i don't let anyone copy my data-

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KMan13 still wants a Pontiac G8

May 29, 2009 9:04 AM

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Keep in mind, places that do this are then going to use your information for direct mail advertising (JUNK MAIL!)

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Karl

May 29, 2009 9:11 AM

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When they scan your license, they get EVERYTHING that's printed on your license, and sometimes a bit more. This includes your DOB, address, height, weight, etc. In many cases there aren't any laws protecting them from using or selling this information any way they like.

Use a passport instead. Unless their policy explicitly mentions a drivers license or state ID card, you've met their return policy conditions (presenting a photo ID, presumably) and they should accept the return. Yet, they can't scan your passport, and even if they happen have a passport MRZ reader (which I've only seen at airports), they won't get nearly the same amount of personal information.

1 replies

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pecan 3.14159265

May 29, 2009 11:28 AM

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@Karl: I could understand this but the point is for them to track you by license. No license number means anyone skirting this can just bring their passport?

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May 29, 2009 9:33 AM

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1. Take a page out of Steve Wozniak's book and hand them your DoD ID. Department of Defiance, that is.

2. Their written policy does not state they will request an ID. If they refuse to take the return without one, send the item to the store with certified mail and charge it back with your certified mail slip as proof you returned it. Costs you a few bucks to send it back, so it's probably better for everyone involved to just work it out. I still won't let a store scan my ID.

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May 29, 2009 10:14 AM

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It seems to me that if you're returning \"for cause\" (e.g., a defective item, using the implied warranty of suitability for instance) then the retailer has no ability to REQUIRE the ID, since the law REQUIRES them to issue the refund. You can dance and jig and call them morons, they still have to give you a refund if the flashlight you bought refuses to turn on, or if that Transformers toy broke the first time you tried to go from sports-car to battle-robot.

2 replies

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May 29, 2009 6:24 PM

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@Derek Balling: Your intuition on this would be wrong. Stores are not required to take returns period. Most will take returns with receipt and/or ID. Lacking BOTH? Keep in mind that you would need a receipt to prove to a court that you bought the item from the retailer. State law already limits what information they can record from your IDs so this really is a tempest in a teapot.

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May 29, 2009 4:55 PM

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@Derek Balling: There is no law that a merchant, any merchant, has to accept any returns whatsoever.

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donovanr

May 29, 2009 11:50 AM

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If they asked for my license I would have dropped the shoes on the counter, taken a picture of the person with the shoes and said, \"You didn't deliver what I ordered so I just returned them. I am now doing a chargeback on my Visa. If you fight it I will see you in court.\" Then walk away; leaving the shoes.

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Ihaveasmartpuppy

May 29, 2009 11:59 AM

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I put a piece of blue painters tape over part of the mag strip and bar code. I think that would keep it from scanning, and painters tape is easily removed in case its needed for more official use.

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donovanr

May 29, 2009 11:59 AM

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Another option would be to erase the mag strip. If some day a cop tries to use it he can just punch the numbers in.

That way you can happily hand your license over to the drone and mumble \"Slide this M.....\"

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Anonymous

May 29, 2009 12:31 PM

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Carry a standard NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) with you, and demand that the clerk sign it first. Google required all county inspectors to sign one before entering their facility in Atlanta even though they were government officials.

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GreatWhiteNorth

May 29, 2009 12:32 PM

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There are laws that govern who can ask for what pieces of ID. For example in Canada your Social Insurance Number can legally be requested by the government, your bank, and your employer. No one else has a right to it and you are not required to give it to anyone else and they can not legally demand it.

It would be interesting to know if there are similar laws governing who can demand the details on a drivers license or other government issued ID.

By the way Social Insurance Number is equivalent to Social Security except not likely to go bankrupt real soon. (sorry about the smart ass comment, couldn't resist)

1 replies

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GreatWhiteNorth

May 29, 2009 12:33 PM

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@GreatWhiteNorth: ... of course retailers will chose not to do business with you if you don't give up your rights...

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May 29, 2009 12:47 PM

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There is no way I will let my license get scanned again. Last year while being overrun with baby shower gifts I went back to Target a few times to return items with no receipt. Of course I didn't think anything of it because all the items were on the registry but were duplicates. Turns out they have a $180 limit per year and I was stuck with a bunch of items they wouldn't take. So what could I do but take it back to Wal-Mart who also has a similar policy, they only allow 3 returns without a receipt per year and I had two already. Basically don't let them scan your license or you are pretty much screwed in the future.

3 replies

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loueloui

May 30, 2009 7:26 AM

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@knicksyanks1: I hate those assholes at Target. I got a gift of a coffemaker, and a few bags of coffee pods for Christmas. Turns out it was the wrong kind of coffee for the machine.

Then the red shirted cretin tells me that I can only return 3 out of the 6 bags becvause that's all they allow in a year. These are not high dollar items, just a few bucks each but still.

A lot of these retailers use the 'Return Exchange' which is a similar company. Oh, and get this they're officially located in Brazil, so this is all nice and safe from US law.

Man, retail stores suck.

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May 29, 2009 2:58 PM

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@knicksyanks1: Wow. It is fraudulent returns just like you are admitting to at Walmart that are driving retailers to require ID to track (usually receipt-less) returns.

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June 1, 2009 3:11 PM

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@fantomesq: What is fraudulent? They get an unopened item and I get something else from the store. There is no money changing hands so you need to rethink your statements.

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June 1, 2009 3:54 PM

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@knicksyanks1: The transaction is fraudulent because you are availing yourself of a service that you are not entitled to. You are putting yourself forward as a Walmart customer knowing that Walmart does not extend return privileges to Target customers. Try this. Walk in with your purchase in a Target bag, tell them that you bought the product at Target and want to exchange it here. See how far you get.

Return privileges are there for the express use of their customers. Any abuse of this service makes returns more difficult on everyone.

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realserendipity

May 29, 2009 12:53 PM

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I'm not sure what a good solution would be but I absolutely refuse to allow someone to swipe my drivers license. I also will not give address, phone number, or any other personal information. I don't give clerks a hard time, I just simply say that I don't give out personal information and most enter in some random items.
Information on the license at a minimum has height, weight, dob, address, and sometimes have ssn or scan of fingerprint. Its almost like handing over someone a how to guide for stealing your identify.

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intooooo

May 29, 2009 12:53 PM

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Can they really deny you a return due to lack of license/state ID? What if you paid cash. Or if you don't have a license?

2 replies

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May 29, 2009 6:28 PM

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@Vitaly N.: Non-receipt, non-ID returns are taken on a case by case basis, but really, save yourself the hassle and carry ID.

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morlo

May 29, 2009 2:54 PM

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@Bill2me: Yes, you will not be able to return things. Returns cost money, and money is more important than customer service.

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May 29, 2009 1:13 PM

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It says right in Finish Lines FAQ [www.finishline.com] exactly why they need your I.D.

But they really should post this in store and maybe ask for permission to scan your personal information and shoot it across the interwebs to god knows where.

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Anonymous

May 29, 2009 1:17 PM

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I was asked to do this once, when I went to Lowes to pick up an internet purchased for in-store pickup. Providing the card I ordered on should have been enough (although, I tend to use the one-time-use card number generators that my credit card provides, so that's not an option even then.)

I talked my way out of it, on technicalities. I don't have a driver's license (just a state-issued ID), so I stuck with that, \"I don't have one.\" tact. I shouldn't have had to do that, however.

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I Love New Jersey

May 29, 2009 1:17 PM

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Doesn't this make it easier for identity theft?
It isn't like there is a good track record with companies and sensitive information.

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Bill2me

May 29, 2009 1:31 PM

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How exactly does this prevent anything?

I can see them collecting the data to identify people who frequently return things - but to what end?

Are these people going to be met by a \"No, You're not allowed to return things anymore.\" or \"You're banned from this store!\" someday? Obviously not.

There are mechanics in place to prevent the old \"find a receipt walk-in and return things off the shelves\" scam but I fail to see how even those can be avoided by scanning a license...

1 replies

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Anonymous

May 29, 2009 3:14 PM

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@Bill2me: after so many returns, the employee will tell them they need to bring in a receipt to process any further returns. they deny it till further proof of purchase can be obtained. at our store specifically, we're able to look up any receipt with any form of payment. if you paid cash, though, you have to remember a date and a good estimate of the transaction total. it's still possible to look it up, just a pain.

on the same note, if there's a customer constantly bringing in an unusual amount of returns without receipt, loss prevention keeps an eye on them. they might have been from an area store where they walked out the door with a bunch of items without buying..... all they need is tapes showing the person stole or otherwise unlawfully obtained the merchandise (switched tick's) and there will be a nice police car ride to their next residence. you don't have to worry about this unless you committed a crime. i'm just pointing out that this info. can help to catch a thief.

the show id for no receipt returns is clearly stated on a poster at the customer service desk. like i said, you can avoid it by bringing in a receipt or doing receipt look up.

with all that, i think when you have a receipt and they still require id, that's a bit much.

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grapedog

May 29, 2009 1:43 PM

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Well, that was easy, I will never shop at a Finish Line. I rarely return products...but I'll stop shopping at places that require my ID. There are so many friggin stores in this world that are looking for business right now.

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iCuRyZ2

May 29, 2009 1:47 PM

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So at what point do these stores actually use this \"store policy\" information to turn down a return of an item - EVER? I feel this is definately a potential risk for fraud in the near future. Driver's lic now have social security numbers and is definately the next target for theives. At what point do customers have a right to privacy? If I am buying a pair of pants that needs to be returned - why should it be recorded? How about the company using the same type of information for how many times I buy...and give me a discount for my frequency of buying in their store? Why focus on the negative!

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banmojo

May 29, 2009 1:58 PM

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given that the cost of returning items is ultimately passed on to ALL legit consumers, I fully support this concept.

1 replies

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morlo

May 29, 2009 2:58 PM

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@banmojo: These types of measures will also reduce sales, and with a decrease in volume prices will increase for the meek customers who remain.

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May 29, 2009 2:32 PM

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I thought the best reply so far was from: ideagirl who said:
\"I show it to them, and say \"Please don't scan it.\" If they question me, I tell them I was a victim of identity theft and it shuts them up.\"

Great idea, I will keep it in mind. However you really don't get much warning that they are going to 'scan' it.

If you are anti-Target you might take a look at my blog www.targetfiling.blogspot.com which is not in its 4th year. This is the blog that they sued for 23 months to shut down and couldn't do it (got tossed out in July 08). They objected to my having put up their Security Manual, it is still there FYI.

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May 29, 2009 2:48 PM

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While I understand the purpose ,ID scanning should be refused by the customer when possible.These types of systems are made to save cost,not to secure customer data.Even if the drivers license data isn't hacked externally,employees at the data company's HQ could just download all that juicy info on a flash drive for the right price.

Since companies won't pay my legal fees if they're connected to the theft of my identity,I will not provide any information that can be used as such.As someone who works in retail you *dont* have to do what they say.Decline politely,and if the staff is still being moronic contact the retailers head office.Once you get to district level management they'll do reasonably anything to resolve the issue

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May 29, 2009 3:04 PM

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Generally a store can't require ID for a purchase but they can require identification for a return because returning products is a privilege that can be suspended. You can refuse to produce ID but the store can also refuse to accept your return. It probably takes exceptions on a case-by-case basis. The ID requirement is there to flag and prevent fraud.

The Retail Equation is one of many solutions - many retailers use homegrown databases. State law - at least here in California - limits what information the retailer may store from the ID swipe. Most I have seen store name and Driver's License number.

Bad consumers make life more difficult on the rest of us but fraud is rampant. If you were the retailer would you not protect yourself?

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May 29, 2009 3:31 PM

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So do they just deny returns from foreign tourists? Say, those unused to the concept of requiring ID for return? I know I'd be perplexing them with my Chinese DL if they insisted on one (much in the way that I use my Tennessee one when ID is required in China).

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BeerManMike

May 29, 2009 3:35 PM

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Oh its another \"for YOUR protection\" kinda things... HEY! were going to put you in this railroad car and shackel you for your own protection! *whisper* \"then force you to work at a camp\" WHAT?! \"oh, nothing...\"

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jayphat

May 29, 2009 3:36 PM

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I work for CVS and we do it to keep track of sales of Psuedophedrine. So much easier than using paper and pencil and it tracks all stores, not just ours, so they can't go over the limit.

1 replies

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SabreDC

May 30, 2009 4:27 PM

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@jayphat: That's a Federal mandate that the government issued and its their ID card... that's slightly different than a corporation that is not connected to the government required government-issued ID for a non-mandated purpose.

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May 29, 2009 3:51 PM

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Was about to agree with person until I saw it was a return. You want to return something, you have to play by their rules.

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savdavid

May 29, 2009 4:01 PM

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The more we quietly hand over our personal information to business the more we will belong to them.

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May 29, 2009 4:32 PM

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I would tell the retailer that I don't have a license. I sometimes tell retailers I don't have a phone when they ask for my phone number.

I had to give a phone number and sign a receipt to Champs Sports to exchange a tee shirt that was marked incorrectly. Both cost the same amout, but they needed all sorts of information just to exchange something.

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May 29, 2009 5:47 PM

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I use my gov't issued work badge as ID from time to time. No barcode is on it and it's a federally produced ID.

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May 29, 2009 6:03 PM

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I don't know what's more scary a private business asking for your government ID or the fact that civilian equipment can scan government documents .

I might give some leway if a person is returning something without a reciept but for a return with a reciept or on record - NO WAY! .

But this is what happens when we have become so casual about giving out personal information that was never intended for ID purposes . The kids that witness this going on or even the teenage cashier handling the return are the ones to worry about in the future because to them asking and giving up personal information is a normal way of doing business .

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quail

May 29, 2009 6:16 PM

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An ex sister-in-law of mine was black listed from Target and Wal-Mart in the mid 90's. She made excessive returns. The family suspects that a friend of hers that worked at Sears would steal items, give them to the ex-in-law, and she'd return them without receipt for the cash or store credit. Can't blame the store for this policy or using a database service.

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Skater009

May 29, 2009 9:41 PM

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Simple stop shopping there and tell them why . Its a lame service and it is not needed.

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Skater009

May 29, 2009 9:44 PM

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Oh and by the way , it a state issued ID , ask them if they have pro-mission from the state to scan your state ID . in most states that is not allowed by law. that strip on the back is for gov use only like police Homeland sec . etc.

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Skater009

May 29, 2009 9:50 PM

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Sue them if they lose your info.

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May 30, 2009 12:11 AM

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Where I worked at Macy's in central Ohio, they didn't seem to really give a damn about who returned what. Especially sucks when you work on commission and people keep on buying shoes only to immediately return them the next day (after wearing them the night before at a club, of course).

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Erin Cummins

May 30, 2009 2:47 AM

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We did this at JoAnn Fabrics. If you have a receipt, no problem and no need to scan your license. If you don't have a receipt we need to scan your info as a way of tracking you. If you're the type of person who returns things without receipts often, to multiple stores, and investigation is started.

Lesson learned: keep your receipts.

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May 30, 2009 3:46 AM

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I hope that this isn't a repeat...I didn't read all of the replies.

Remember when they used to make you fill out that little form? Now they don't because the code on the back of the DL has all that information in it. At least that's what Target told me.

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May 30, 2009 12:19 PM

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Can anyone confirm/deny if ChoicePoint has gotten ahold of the returns database yet? I'm sure they'd love to be able to tell everyone what you buy & what you return.

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May 30, 2009 3:35 PM

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If chronic returners are a problem for a store the store should be able to come up with something else other than demanding you surrender your privacy for simply returning something which is your right with most stores .

The stores should use things like restocking or open box fees to stop the non-criminal returner . They should issue nothing but a store credit for the no reciept/shop lifter returner . The stores should check the returns used or not . I heard stationary stores get scammend on stuff like printer cartridges all the time with customers returning used ones in a new box .

In the end the consumer is the one who should refuse to do business with stores like this . But the consumer can't make a decision unless they know ahead of time that ID will be required for all returns .

Show me the privacy policy

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Anonymous

May 30, 2009 5:20 PM

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I work at a clinic and we were informed that there are new regulations that are being implemented to prevent identity theft. And, it's rare, but medical identity theft does occur. Someone will use your identity to get medical care. It's very dangerous as then if you receive care at the same facility they could think you have a different medical history or take different medications than you actually do. If you do a search on \"Red Flags Rule\" you will find out more about it.

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May 31, 2009 7:25 AM

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Well thanks to this article I will have to \"forget\" my D/L if I ever have to exchange something. I'll just pull out some other obscure form of ID like my military card or have the security guy at work print up some authentic looking ID card from a far away state. How is some minimum wage person going to know and why would they care?

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December 30, 2009 4:35 AM

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I've never had a store require me to swipe my license, but I recently had a very heated exchange with a cashier at Pep Boys who wouldn't give me a refund for a $4 item unless I gave her my name, home address, and home phone number. I had a receipt and had paid with a credit card and didn't understand why they needed my personal information to charge $4 back to my credit card. I questioned her repeatedly, and she gave me a different answer every time I asked her, none of which made sense. First it was \"because of fraud\", then it was to \"protect customers\", then it was \"store policy\". Yeah, we all know about those con artists who steal credit cards, buy $4 worth of merchandise, and then return it on the same stolen card. All for their own personal gain. Good to see the Pep Boys are looking out for me.

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I Love Christmas

December 27, 2011 4:10 AM

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Government ID requests here in SE Florida are over -the-top in the past 6 months. Merchants such as Tuesday Morning and All Physician Offices, Labs and medical testing sites such as Ultrasound, CT, MRI, etc. They copy or scan the ID into a computer.
My offers to show them the ID without scan or copying are denied along with denials to see my own Physician or also having the testing denied.

Of late I am fed up, as Physician offices and alike have frequent personnel changes, my concerns are great. Is the State Attorney General an appropriate contact for this?

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