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Let them raise the same ruckus they always do. They don't know where to draw the line.
Let them raise the same ruckus they always do. They don't know where to draw the line.
I think it's more messed up that some Catholics think unbaptized babies go to purgatory.
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@Kensuke Nakamura: No, no, no, unbaptized babies went to LIMBO. But Limbo's gone, because you couldn't get to heaven from Limbo, and that was messed up. Pretty much everybody goes to Purgatory, it's the stopping point on the way to Heaven. Only saints get to take the express elevator. :)
@Eyebrows McGee (popping ~May 29): I believe even saints can stop by Purgatory. By the time they're saints they're in heaven...but that usually takes years after their death. For example, Mother Theresa hasn't been made a saint yet, 12 years after she died.
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@Eyebrows McGee (popping ~May 29):
I grew up Catholic, and I stopped believing in Purgatory a long time ago.
@Eyebrows McGee (popping ~May 29): You know, I always felt that this life makes a pretty good Purgatory.
We have no definitive proof of the existence of God, and no known point at which you'll die and be judged. There is no known point of view besides your own, as various existentialist arguments make, so you can't be sure how much of the world is real and how much is part of the test (ie, you can't be certain of the past beyond your own lifetime of experience). People the world over show the ability for extreme compassion and extreme cruelty in their lives, though most fall in the middle.
Despite what happened in ancient times as chronicled in the old testament, God has a very hands-off policy of late. I mean, if we had a rain of killer barley bread (see Judges 7, some versions of the hagadya) over a major city today, I think you safely say that Church attendance would go up. Yet you don't see cool things like that any more.
So, yeah. What I was trying to say is that it's the ambiguity of this world, where really we know nothing for certain about the nature of God and the afterlife, or when we'd be going there, this world seems like one huge test of faith. Like what you'd expect from a God trying to judge those who don't QUITE make the grade.
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@Deranged_Kitsune: \"Yet you don't see cool things like that any more.\"
We don't see that anymore, really!? Tell that to the folks eating contaminated peanut butter paste, veggies with salmonella sauce, etc... It may not seem biblical, but it's basically the same thing.
One of my favorite stories concering a hands off God...
A man lived alone in a house threatened by flood. As one of his neighbors was packing up to evacuate he offered to take the man with him. The old man politely declined and said \"God will provide.\"
A while later the flood had really gotten going and the man was sitting on his front porch watching the water flow down the street. At this point a boat pulled up in his front yard and the man driving it asked if he needed help. Again the old man politely declined and said \"God will provide.\"
Hours later the flood had gotten REALLY bad and the man was on his roof. A Helicopter flew by and dropped a ladder. He just waved them off and said \"God will provide.\"
Shortly after that the water rose up over his house and the old man drowned.
The old man woke up in Heaven to see God standing over him. He was a bit suprised and asked... \"Lord, I was a man of faith who put myself in your hands. Why didn't you provide for my safety?\"
To which God replied...
\"I sent your neighbor, I sent a boat, and I even sent a Helicopter. What more did you want?\"
:)
@dadelus: The thing with biblical plagues and stuff was that it was BIBLICAL in nature. Not the results of human incompetence.
@Eyebrows McGee (popping ~May 29): A baby would spend like 2 minutes, if that, in purgatory. Not even. They have no real sin (Except the stupid Original Sin) and God would not judge them into punishment like hell or purgatory when they where unable to make a difference themselves.
As for Purgatory, it is punishment, not people deciding to hide because they are all shy and awkward around Superstar Jesus. Having seen God, being sent to your room, away from God's loving stare, makes people feel like shit. That is purgatory (and hell. Only difference is that you come back from purgatory). Some people think Hell is nothing other than knowing you will never ever see God again.
And as for the people in the wrong religion, it amounts to faith, good-will, and dedication. If you believe in a god, act kindly towards your other men (or atleast not unkindly), and follow the rules faithfully (unlike us non-practicing catholics, natch) then its treated like a 1:1 trade.
Shit, for the most part, if there is/has been only one god ever, then every religion amounts to worshipping the same god, with different names and ideas. It's like how people over time have conceived of fire, from an element to a god to a chemical reaction byproduct. Same thing.
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@dadelus: Your story reminds of the ol' joke: Guy keeps asking God to let him win the lottery. Every week, no luck. Finally, God tells him \"Hey, meet me half way: Buy a lottery ticket!\"
@dadelus: BAH!!!! Missed the part about it RAINING killer barley bread. Yeah, you win, we don't see that kind of stuff anymore.
Just caught the bit about killer barley bread. I will now be quiet and go work on my reading comprehension
*facepalm*
@Eyebrows McGee (popping ~May 29): Yeah, that's bothered me since I heard about the change in thought. Did they throw the babies out with the Limbo? Or did the poor unfortunate souls qualify for an upgrade in status to Purgatory and/or Heaven when their current accomodations were removed from doctrine?
@Skankingmike: Dante accounted for that; if you were generally a good person but were not privy to believing in JC and The Big Man, or didn't accept JC as *Carlin voice* \"Your buddy\", you went to the first level of Hell. In reality it's pretty much where all the \"cool\" people went (Hellenic authors, epic poets, virtuous Pagans [they throw the best parties]). Limbo was separate and used to explain where those who were without sin, but could not accept JC went if they died before baptism.
Personally I have a bit of morbid excitement to see what the developers do with the forest of the suicides, I think it was level 7. Truly poetic, screwed up imagery.
@Skankingmike: @dadelus: Limbo was never \"official\" doctrine; it was one of those folk beliefs that takes on a life of its own. Basically, everybody goes to Purgatory, pretty much regardless of who or what they are. This is vastly simplified, but Catholics believe in something generally called \"baptism by will\" -- sort-of the idea is that at the end of your life/beginning of your afterlife, you see everything clearly, and you go, \"Oh! Right! NOW I see eternal truth!\" Where you go thereafter is a matter not of God sorting exactly, but of God sorting you according to your choice -- and since you see eternal truth, you become aware of your own suckiness, and you go hide out in Purgatory because you're so ashamed of your sinfulness you feel the need to hide yourself from God. God sits there and blasts his Care Bear Stare of love at you, until eventually you realize it doesn't matter that you suck, and then you go be in perfect happiness in Heaven. Saints may have achieved that perfect forgiveness on earth and so can take the direct ticket to Heaven. There's a common saying (in theology, anyway) that \"Catholics believe in Hell, they're just not sure there's anybody in it\" because, well, why would you pick eternal separation?
In theory, a baby (baptized or otherwise) probably goes to Heaven \"faster\" than me, because I'm going to be spending way more \"time\" in Purgatory feeling sucky about my sins, whereas babies didn't really have time to commit any.
As for people baptized in the \"wrong\" religion -- if it's a Trinitarian baptism (most Christian denominations), it \"counts\" for Catholicism. Otherwise, baptism by will.
But this is all very \"angels on the head of a pin.\" Nobody knows what happens after we die since it's not like we're getting memos from the afterlife, so it's all speculation and idle amusement for folks with a theological bent, really. The better answer is probably just, \"God is loving and merciful, I'm sure it will work out.\"
But if you like counting your angels on the head of a pin, there's the current fairly dominant theory. There are other theories out there, but in a multicultural world, most Catholics aren't very comfortable with the idea that good people would go to hell just for being in the wrong religion. :)
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@Eyebrows McGee (popping ~May 29): see, now why couldn't they explain it like that in ccd?
lmao on \"care bear stare of love\". that's awesome.
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@Eyebrows McGee (popping ~May 29): So, if I get this right, a Gandhi, say, would arrive in Purgatory, experience a relatively quick transition according to the Baptism By Will doctrine, passing by (Godwin alert!) a Christian Hitler.
I'm okay with that. One of the things that always bugged me about the process was a very bad Christian getting a FastPass over a non-Christian \"saint\", but it looks like their doctrine accounts for these discrepancies adeptly. It seems more accepting of multi-denominational differences than I supposed. Yay!
@Trai_Dep: In theory, yes. But still, angels on the head of a pin! It's all totally theoretical and most likely all entirely wrong. But it gives us all something to think about. :)
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It's the classic case of someone using shock value to sell something because they know the product can't stand up on it's own (see: Chuck Palahniuk's career).
Nothing new really, babies and little children have always been part of video games. There was those demon babies in Doom as cleek says. There are little girls in the game Bioshock where you can either save or 'harvest' them. There were even little baby zombies in the old super nintendo game 'Zombies ate my neighborhood.'
Nothing new, no big deal.
@TheObserver: I think the problem that some people would have with this is the implication that unbaptized babies don't get saved (go to Heaven) and are basically punished by being stuck in Limbo. It just starts a huge religious debate that doesn't belong in video games. Unless it's this: [www.mobygames.com]
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@squinko:
I'll never understand why people care where unbaptized babies go. Every day, people chop up fetuses after all. You'd think that would be a more pressing concern if you were of that turn of mind.
While Jonathan Knight sounds like a dumbass (\"they are based in the mythology of the medieval time\"?), I actually think the Divine Comedy would make for a pretty awesome video game. There's some great imagery in there, and \"giant, three-headed Satan encased in ice\" would be a sick final boss.
@Superawesomerad: Lame boss. He's stuck in ice. What's he gonna do, give you the cold shoulder?
Plus, Hell is the start level. Heaven is the final level.
I have but one simple request. And that is to have babies with frickin lightsabers for arms. Is that to much to ask?
Uh sir, we weren't able to swing that. We did manage to get babies with glowing eyes and blade arms.
You baby, get in me belly. I want my baby back, baby back, baby back.
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Why would Dante and Virgil encounter any animosity in Limbo?
@HiPwr: Yeah, Limbo's a happy place. Even in Dante it's full of righteous Pagans and what not -- Homer, Ovid, Socrates, Aristotle, Avicenna, Averroes, etc. -- in addition to the unbaptized babies. I believe the descriptions are meant to echo Greek literature descriptions of the Elysian Fields.
But from what I've read about this game, it is to the actual Divine Comedy as Disney's Hunchback is to Hugo's Hunchback. So, you know, whatevs. :)
@Eyebrows McGee (popping ~May 29): Wait, Quasimodo doesn't live happily ever after like the movie says?
When they came for every other piece of literature to butcher for movies or games, I said nothing. Why should I care if they take a classic and tit and gore it up for the unwashed masses? Why they will never come for my classic, the Divine Comedy. Surely such a piece would stand above such ignorant replication for the sake of a buck.
*cries*
It's a piece showing man's struggle from the darkness of sin of the light of redemption! It's filled with incredibly well put togethor allegory incorporating layers of myth! Babies in Limbo aren't violent! You bastards...
Also, on a side note. The Catholic Church might send just about everyone to Purgatory but unbaptised babies get a free pass. They go to heaven because the church finally got around to clarifying what original sin actually means. Purgatory is a place to purge away remnants of your personal failings which babies lack.
I know it's odd, my mother in law is still panicing about us getting our baby baptised the red hot second he pops out of the womb. It just makes her paranoid but I guess you have to understand, people who remember neighbor kids dying of polio can be a bit twitchy about these things.
Yeah yeah, odd religious scenarios but at the end of the day.....Babies go to Heaven.
That's why we need more abortion. Who else is going to help keep Heaven stocked with babies.
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Man, Dante's estate should start flinging some lawsuits.
Pat Benatar was right!
There are so many things wrong with this whole concept I don't know where to start. The babies wouldn't be first on my list though.
I still more freaked out by Ally McBeal's dancing baby...
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Remember the \"Totally Tasteless Joke Book\" series with its dead baby jokes???
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@mgy: way to ruin the link during the autoformat, consumerist. Anyway, just add a closing parenthesis on the end, and you're good to go.
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There was a Divine Comedy-based game for C-64 in the '80s (called Dante's Inferno) that had a section in which you had to dodge babies flying across the screen in one of the early levels. The more things change, the more they stay the same!
It'd be interesting if EA made an iPhone game out of this, simply to see what Apple would do regarding consistency in baby-killing apps.
Annoying, but I feel obligated to shift ultimate blame to squeemish PTA-types likely to run to Fox News to decry \"Apple's Baby-Killing Ways\". Geez, lady, why not volunteer for world peace, starving kids or helping your local animal shelter instead?
Add: anyone that thinks chubby babies are innocent has never had one pee on one side of me while throwing up down the back of my shoulder. They're evil!
And yes, I now insist on shrink-wrapped infant nieces before holding them. Eww!
(Poking at them with a stick from 6' away works well, too, until my sister wises up and complies with my perfectly reasonable demand)
How about a game where the current \"Pope\" (A Nazi, remember) has to
- Cover up past high church crimes from previous centuries
- Manipulate nations to go to war with each other to enhance the church's status / coffers
- Change rules and dogma to minimize and alienate gays, women, and other scapegoats through advocating / fighting the right laws and systems worldwide
- Start holy wars against rival religions
- Boink as many altar boys, young priests and monsignors as possible and excommunicate their parents and admirers when they complain...
- Make sure to maintain a heavy schedule of public communion denials for political opponents weekly.
We could call it \"Holy Wars\", \"The New Crusades\", etc. Of course I would call it \"Demons in Denial Land\".
Oh, I'm sorry - we have that in real life, don't we? lol
Yes and I hope I ruffled and startled as many Catholics as possible, who are ridiculously stupid to stay in an organization with a Nazi covering up wordlwide child molestation as it's \"spiritual\" leader. Revolting.
Finally, what do they call those training schools for priests? Semen-aries...
As long as I get to shoot a lot of towel heads in it, sounds spiffy. What do you think you'd be pricing the MSRP at?
And Beatrice becomes Lara Croft.
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Personally I think this is fine. Even the tasteless iphone game is ok. Sure its nothing more than shock value but who cares.
Now if it was Cooking Mama: Baby Cuisene. Then I would be scared.
It should be a public / community service game :)
I had another idea for a video game though...
Cathla-mole. Kinda like whack a mole, except the following pop up for you to hit:
Nazi Pope - \"You're A Sinner - Go To Hell\"
Child Molesting Priest - \"Come Here for Father's Blessing, Little Boy\"
Nun with Ruler \"Don't you speak up in class, sonny\"
Catholic Stepford Wife - \"Oh Father, Forgive me\"
Meh, try playing Drakenguard on the PS2 all the way through. It featured a Godzilla-sized, spread-eagled naked pregnant woman draped across Tokyo on fire. Giant demon babies with insect wings shot out of her vagina and attacked you. I still have nightmares about it.
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you had to kill like a million little flying demon babies in the last Doom.
@cleek: Those Cherubs can be considered liked emaciated versions of little cupids. Not technically human babies (But considering the whole Doom = Hell on mars angle)
@cleek: Same thing Dead space. Tons of babies that chuck stuff at you, forcing you to chop their misshapen bodies in half.
There's no misconception(ha!) about what they are. It's human babies transformed bad.
@cleek: Was about to say the very same thing. They're even called Cherubs and are noted by their distinct baby cry.