var json_comments = new Array("
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theblackdog
May 12, 2009 1:00 PM
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Fair warning, MML folks are also trying to get to you via Twitter, if you get an E-mail that Qivana or teamqivana is following you, block them.

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Michael Bauser
May 12, 2009 6:32 PM
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@theblackdog: Yeah, the MLM types end up invading every social site. I used to get a lot of Excel Communications come-ons through ICQ, for some reason

The Excel guys were really easy to spot, because they would all use the same \"business opportunity\" come-on, and all listed \"Excel Communications\" as employer. It's like they had an ICQ annoyance script.

I wonder if the MLM companies have started encouraging their reps to use Twitter, or if that's all independent \"innovation.\"

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dreamsneverend
May 12, 2009 3:43 PM
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@theblackdog: I've noticed a wave of those recently. I see someone adds me and when I look at their profile it's all MML garbage.

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craigkay
May 12, 2009 1:06 PM
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@theblackdog:

That's okay - he could've said the MMA folks were trying to recruit you - which would bring about a whole new set of concerns.

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m4ximusprim3
May 12, 2009 5:56 PM
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@craigkay: Frank Shamrock wants YOU to buy Mona Vie!

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theblackdog
May 13, 2009 1:51 PM
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@m4ximusprim3: Oh god...Mona Vie, I had a co-worker who tried forever to get me to buy into it because he swore that he started taking it and it was making him feel so much better. He quit that after he went to his doctor and his bloodwork showed that the Mona Vie wasn't doing shit for him.

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Haltingpoint
May 14, 2009 4:45 PM
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@theblackdog: My gf's friend at work pitched her on this and talked about how they all buy the $60+ bottles of that crap and how much better her and her daughter feel using it.

I probably approached it the wrong way w/ my gf but I basically told her its just MLM crap, a cup of apple juice has more benefit than a bottle of that crap and that it was sweeping the affiliate marketing industry by storm because of how easy it was to scam people, to the point where the FDA/FTC have become involved.

She got pissed off because she didn't think they would lie to her and that they were trustworthy and not everything is a scam, etc. etc. Well, there's this little thing called the placebo effect...

Anyway, it really can be a difficult and sensitive matter to educate people who are otherwise intelligent but who still fall for this shit.

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Nytmare
May 12, 2009 1:04 PM
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I remember the feeling of nausea and betrayal that came over me when a car club member stood up to address our meeting and unexpectedly started into a sales pitch for long distance service from some MLM sales company. Fortunately some other members spoke up and cut him short. Man that was uncomfortable.

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4 replies
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CFinWV
May 12, 2009 2:34 PM
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@nytmare: I had a roomie in college that told me she was bringing some friends over and she wanted me to meet them. I walked into the living room to find an Amway display. I walked right back out.

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Parapraxis
May 12, 2009 7:17 PM
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@CFinWV:

man, and you got my hopes up too...

I should stop watching so much porn.

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zandar
May 12, 2009 3:04 PM
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@CFinWV: Been there done that, though it turned out to be Mormons. Mormonism and Amway are really pretty similar if you think about it.

I have a neighbor who buys these things hook, line and sinker and is always wanting me to buy in. I don't even listen to the pitch anymore. Because I like him, it makes me feel rude which sucks because he is the rude one for trying to get me involved in that bullshit.

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m4ximusprim3
May 12, 2009 6:03 PM
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@zandar: at least with amway you get to see your wife naked. that's a little consolation, no?

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czetie
May 12, 2009 7:30 PM
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@m4ximusprim3: I was really confused for a couple of minutes there. \"Wait, I get to see zandar's wife naked, and all I have to do is sit through an Amway pitch? What do I get if I actually buy something?\".

Then I figured it out. Time for coffee...

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greenunicorns
May 12, 2009 7:17 PM
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@m4ximusprim3:

Perhaps, but with Mormonism you get way more wives!

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czetie
May 12, 2009 7:30 PM
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@greenunicorns: You also get way more mothers-in-law...

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Skankingmike
May 12, 2009 1:04 PM
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[www.tni.com]

Don't forget Noni juice scammers

I have this guy that keeps trying to get me to buy his crappy juice drink and then \"buy\" into it. It's 700 dollars to be a \"dealer\" then you have to buy cases of the drink for 40 dollars a pop and then try to sell these things as profit?

Who's buying a 5+ dollar energy drink?

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6 replies
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SacraBos
May 12, 2009 3:47 PM
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@Skankingmike: We bought some Noni juice at Sam's Wholesale once. Tasted like drinking dirt mixed with water. Ugh.

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Skankingmike
May 12, 2009 4:15 PM
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@SacraBos: I didn't know they did retail now.

But if you sale enough or sign enough people up then you can go to Tahiti!

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rkaufman
May 12, 2009 3:18 PM
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@Skankingmike: My MOM loves that stuff. I had no idea how much she was spending on it. Holy hell.

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Julia789
May 12, 2009 2:02 PM
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@Skankingmike: Ughghgh. My evil father-in-law sells this crappy Noni juice. He has fake large-type brochures printed up saying it's proven to cure cancer. Then he takes it around retirement communities (where half the old folks have or have had SOME type of cancer, and the remaining old folks are terrified their cancer is coming soon) and sells cases of the stuff. Some of them have Alzheimers and can't even tell you what day it is. Many of them are just so happy to have a visitor they buy the damn juice. And to add insult to injury, he tries to get them to join the Mormon church after he sell them the juice. He's been \"banned\" from two nursing homes. Now he has to stick with \"active retirement communities\" where nurses are not supervising. He is just evil.

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Skankingmike
May 12, 2009 2:42 PM
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@Julia789: OMG! that's horrible and hilarious all at the same time.

You should write a book about him I would defiantly buy it.

The Mormon traveling swindling sales man that prays on old people and their fear of death.

Yea i read that it cures cancer too. somebody should tell the medical community oh wait they're the ones hiding this magical cure from the world!!!! :P

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Julia789
May 12, 2009 5:32 PM
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@Skankingmike: It is funny AND terrible! It's funny because it's so terrible, I think. I feel bad for the old people he preys/prays upon.


I say preys/prays because he literally preys upon them for juice sales and then prays with them asking them to join the Mormon church after he's sold them juice to cure their cancer. He tells them \"I can only save your body with the Noni juice, but to save your soul, you need the church.\" ::GAG::

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m4ximusprim3
May 12, 2009 6:06 PM
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@Julia789: that's pretty good actually. I like his holistic approach to salesmanship.

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ludwigk
May 12, 2009 3:14 PM
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@Skankingmike: No, a screenplay. It can be the modern-day snake oil salesman. And, I'm saying screenplay because I don't have the time to read a book right now.

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johnva
May 12, 2009 2:39 PM
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@Real Cheese Flavor: Amway (and some other MLMs) have a lot of the same aspects as religious cults, actually. The pressure, the fervor, the recruitment, the exploitation from the top, etc. Furthermore, Amway itself has long been associated with fundamentalist Christianity. Actually, a lot of MLMs spread especially quickly in churches because churches teach people that they should implicitly trust the other members of their church community. The MLMs prey on that instinct.

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bohemian
May 12, 2009 2:53 PM
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@johnva: Every friend or family member that has approached me with a MLM pitch got hooked up in it through church.
My sister in law that has had a creeping case of crazy over the years was stalking me about buying Airbonne, boy was that uncomfortable. She wouldn't take no for an answer and yes, she got hooked up with it through their church.
Like I needed another reason to dislike organized religion.

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Traveshamockery
May 12, 2009 3:30 PM
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@bohemian: If you're looking for reasons to dislike anything, you're going to find plenty of proof. A man is always quick to believe that which he wishes to be true.

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dragonfire81
May 12, 2009 3:50 PM
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@Coach Cal Is My Dream Weaver: I've been going to my church for awhile now and have never gotten sucked into an MLM scheme. I will also say there are people that I don't trust worth a damn. Just saying you're a christian is not enough for me to trust you.

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johnva
May 12, 2009 5:00 PM
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@dragonfire81: Probably depends on what kind of church it is. One thing I've noticed is that the more fundamentalist people are always trying to rip each other off. Don't know why that is, but it's just an observation from looking at their websites and such.

But in general I would imagine that the more \"culty\" your church is the more fertile ground it would be for MLMs and other confidence/affinity scams.

Also, someone volunteering that they are a \"Christian\" unprompted is for me a big fat warning signal to not trust a word they say. The people that are actually nice, good Christians (or other religions, for that matter, but Christians are the most dominant in America obviously) don't usually feel the need to tell everyone about it.

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johnva
May 12, 2009 3:16 PM
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@bohemian: I was trying to be diplomatic towards religion, but...yeah. You're right. Not getting badgered by dozens of MLM scammers is a good reason to avoid church, in and of itself.

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EdnaLegume
May 12, 2009 1:04 PM
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mary kay, avon, pampered chef, stampin up.... I feel so violated.

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17 replies
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lvhotrain
May 12, 2009 4:21 PM
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@EdnaLegume: Pampered chef stuff is tasty though.

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I_have_something_to_say
May 12, 2009 4:10 PM
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@EdnaLegume:

Mary Kay has done the lady I work with pretty well. She believes in the products, uses them and knows quite a bit about them. She does it part time and makes pretty good money at it. You have the have the right personality for it though. MLM is definitely not my thing.

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winshape
May 12, 2009 3:26 PM
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@EdnaLegume: Pampered Chef isn't that bad (full disclosure: I sold it for a while). It does have some great products at competitive prices more or less. The kit you have to buy to start out with at least has a bunch of functional stuff in it, like baking stones, utensils, etc.

It was also pretty profitable, as everyone gets excited about them. I got tired of always being in sales mode and balancing friendships with selling. I know how much I hated getting sold to and wanted to quit while I was ahead.

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ElleDriver
May 12, 2009 3:07 PM
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@EdnaLegume: I got invited to a Mary Kay party a few years back, having no idea about their notorious business background. It was weird and creepy, as the whole thing had a Stepford Wife-vibe, with all the reps wearing pink and showing off their latest \"jewels and diamonds\" they earned for their sales, and nattering about pink cars.

I was one of the few Asian folks who attended their party, and the senior \"Grande Dame\" MK lady personally approached me about becoming a rep, as I had potential to reach an \"untapped market\". (Because I apparently know ALL Asian people.) They hounded me for a year by phone to sign-up, until they gave up.

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HogwartsAlum
May 12, 2009 8:25 PM
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@ElleDriver:

I hate that! I went to one just because I wanted to purchase product (I actually like their products), but most of the presentation was about recruitment. I didn't CARE about selling the crap; I just wanted to buy lipstick!

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KyleOrton
May 12, 2009 5:41 PM
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@ElleDriver: Hey, if you see James from Taipei soon, tell him I say hi. Good guy, right?

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ElleDriver
May 15, 2009 2:53 AM
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@KyleOrton: Yes, yes he is. (He also told me to say hi to your mother for him.)

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Citizen Kang
May 12, 2009 3:51 PM
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@ElleDriver:

I apparently know ALL Asian people

I thought I recognized you at the meetings. You sit two rows up diagonally next to the guy with the nose ring. I don't believe that's your assigned space according to the seating chart.

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dragonfire81
May 12, 2009 3:55 PM
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@Citizen Kang: having been to several MLM \"parties\" (I got suckered by friends) I noticed at every one of them there was usually one or two black people and a bunch of white folks.

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ElleDriver
May 15, 2009 2:51 AM
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@dragonfire81: Holy crap YES! There were two black MK reps at the party! It's as if it's some weird quota they have to fulfill!

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floraposte
May 12, 2009 3:47 PM
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@ElleDriver: A friend had a Mary Kay party for the campy fun of it, which it was. I'm intrigued to hear the showing off of jewels is apparently a regular technique, as it was very oddly done at ours: the saleswoman was babbling about how because of Mary Kay she didn't need a man to buy her nice things, and this really wasn't a crowd of women who would wait for a man to buy them nice things. Maybe they get a little stuck in the one-note pitch without regard to their audience.

I bought nothing and got no grief for that, though, so points to her for civility.

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EdnaLegume
May 12, 2009 3:15 PM
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@ElleDriver: that is absolutely hilarious because that is EXACTLY how they are. (not mentioning how I know this)

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toolverine
May 12, 2009 2:24 PM
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@EdnaLegume:

MonaVie is another snake oil MLM brand.

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TheObserver
May 12, 2009 1:17 PM
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@EdnaLegume: MLM is one of the biggest scams in the universe. How unbelievable that in this information age people still fall for this gimmick that everyone will become financially successful hawking products no one wants or needs.


The average MLM prospect ends up buying their own products just to break even, as 90 percent of the population already knows what a scam these sales pitches really are.

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lincolnparadox
May 12, 2009 2:06 PM
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@TheObserver: For what it's worth, there are people who make a decent living on Mary Kay. But those are the people at the top of a pyrami-, er, multi-level-market. The lady driving the pink caddie had to have accumulated $4500 per month in wholesale orders for herself and her team. And that's just to have a free lease on the car. To actually own it, they need to make something like $100K in wholesale orders.

But, about 10% of MK consultants are doing that, because there are 100,000 pink caddies out there. I would imagine that it's a 40-hour a week job to sell $9000+ worth of makeup every month, team or no.

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Idontwearpants
May 12, 2009 2:46 PM
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@lincolnparadox: Or, you can just go to any Cadillac dealership and buy that pink DTS. They do sell them to the general public. All in all, it's not really all that more expensive than a regular DTS.

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Skankingmike
May 12, 2009 1:06 PM
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@EdnaLegume: but you can win a Pink Cadillac if you sell enough Mary Kay!

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bohemian
May 12, 2009 2:55 PM
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@Skankingmike: Hey, we had THREE pink Cadillac level Mary Kay reps in our neighborhood when I was a kid. Everyone lived in fear of being invited to yet another party.

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philipbarrett
May 12, 2009 2:31 PM
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@Skankingmike: you don't \"win\" it, you get the rights to it for as long as you keep selling at that level

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Skankingmike
May 12, 2009 2:43 PM
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@philipbarrett: the damned if i know about the inner workings of a scam company :P

So they lease a gas guzzling junk of a car to people if they sell over priced garbage?

Sign me up!

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snowburnt
May 12, 2009 2:07 PM
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@Skankingmike: \"win\" as in they pay the lease for you...Kind of like Arbonne and a Mercedes.

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snowburnt
May 12, 2009 2:06 PM
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@Skankingmike: ...and then continue selling it ad nauseum

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squinko
May 12, 2009 1:09 PM
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But I like Arbonne's and Avon's products. :( At least Avon has a catalog you can order out of. You have to go through one of those creepy women to get anything from Arbonne.

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6 replies
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SisterHavana
May 13, 2009 12:09 AM
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@squinko: I love Avon stuff too. I order mine from a woman at work, but around here there are also Avon kiosks in the mall. You can also order it right from the website.

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HogwartsAlum
May 12, 2009 8:28 PM
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@squinko:

I love Avon too, but there's no way I can order something every week. If they did a catalog every month or even every two weeks, that would make more sense.

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Outrun1986
May 12, 2009 4:50 PM
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@squinko: Tupperware will also last you FOREVER, so for some people it is a good investment. Some of the Tupperware in my house has been around longer than I have. Avon has some good products and of course some bad ones (avoid the clothes and shoes) but my family orders from them and is satisfied. Yes Tupperware is expensive but believe me, it lasts. Buy a cereal container now and you probably won't have to buy one for another 25 or more years.

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MrEvil
May 12, 2009 7:06 PM
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@Outrun1986: Ditto on that, my mom has Tupperware bowls and containers that are older than I am.

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Caroline Christy
May 12, 2009 2:49 PM
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@squinko: I sell Arbonne because all their products are vegan, just like me. If you miss their stuff squinko, I'll sell to you and promise not to be creepy. I'm not in it to make money.

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Raekwon
May 12, 2009 2:24 PM
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@squinko: I actually don't count Avon as MLM so much. Especially since they at least have a legitimate product. That and Tupperware dealers from the past.

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Urgleglurk
May 12, 2009 1:09 PM
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skanikingmike: LOL You're better off just buying the d--- Cadillac your self. It's cheaper.

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1 replies
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Skankingmike
May 12, 2009 1:38 PM
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@Urgleglurk: I know I've seen quite a few of those \"Mary Kay\" monsters out here in NJ.

They seem to pick on the uneducated who think they're smart.

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ChrisC1234
May 12, 2009 1:09 PM
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I honestly don't see how smart well-educated people can fall for these things, but I know several that have.

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3 replies
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Verucalise (Est.February2008)
May 12, 2009 7:11 PM
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@ChrisC1234: A close family member of mine who has been in professional SALES no less, is currently part of what I believe is a MLM. (Prepaid Legal Services) They exhibit all the red flags listed above. He is in his 50's, and quite a bit in debt... and truly believes this is his \"get rich\" scheme. Couldn't even afford to go grocery shopping at times (not just for him, but his wife and 2 grandsons) and laid $300+ down for a monthly \"plan\" plus a license to sell it.


Some people just feel the pressure to make money quick, and unfortunately your better judgement disappears when there's even a glimmer of hope you'll bring in an extra $100 a week.


It's horrific to get caught up in one of these.

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Shadowman615
May 13, 2009 5:00 AM
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@verucalise: There's a big section on \"prepaid legal\" in this article as well (also linked to in the \"related article\" above). The author comes to the same conclusion about them.

[www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com]

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spoco
May 12, 2009 1:58 PM
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@ChrisC1234: Greed is a nasty creature. I have a friend that was in an MLM cult - once he finally listened to some people he got out. Now he tells people the only way to make money in an MLM is to start one.

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Matt Palmer
May 12, 2009 1:09 PM
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Cutco is one of the worst for sure, taking advantage of college kids with their 'make money on spring break' posters all over campus promising 13 bucks an hour... Pure rubbish, the worst part is they have a halfway decent product.

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16 replies
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Bob_Mackey
May 13, 2009 12:50 AM
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I have not used a Cutco knife before, but I would be very surprised if they were actually good knives. They aren't forged; they have cheap plastic handles; the chef knives don't even appear to be the proper shape -- and all this at a cost comparable to the low-to-mid end Wusthof, Shun, and Henckels.

The fact that they're sold via MLM certainly doesn't help their case any.

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SteelersAreGo
May 12, 2009 8:29 PM
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@Matt Palmer: I was involved in Cutco for two days for the group interview thing. I got hired, blah blah, and walked the hell out as soon as they said you'd need to drop x hundred to buy the sample. I also wasn't comfortable with exploiting my loved ones.

Contrary to the opinions here, the knives aren't -that- good. Yes they will cut through a can. How many cans do you cook for dinner? I want a razor sharp knife that won't butcher a tomato, and Cutco ain't it. If you want to drop decent cash for knives, you can do better.

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Powerlurker
May 12, 2009 4:05 PM
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@Matt Palmer:

Cutco and similar businesses such as Southwestern books aren't scams on the same level as an MLM, and you can theoretically make some pretty decent money for a college kid if you know what you're doing and you're willing to work your ass off. A friend of mine in college did the door to door thing with Southwestern one summer, and even for being in a fairly crappy territory for sales (semi-rural North Carolina) he managed to pull in over 7 grand for it. The daughter of one of my mom's coworkers did the Cutco thing and made a lot of money doing it, I think it was somewhere around 14 grand for a summer of work. It can be profitable, but you have to be willing to do a lot of legwork and be good at sales.

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greenunicorns
May 12, 2009 7:39 PM
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@Powerlurker:

Yes, in all MLM schemes, you CAN make money if you bust your ass. But you get that for busting your ass in any company that isn't exploiting you, and there is a whole lot more you get too. Consider the benefits:

What you get for busting your ass in a real job:
-Lots of money.
-Health Insurance.
-Better at your job.
-Promotions
-Retirement plan
-Vacation

What you get for busting your ass in an MLM:
-Slightly to considerably more money than a minimum wage job.

Also, note that while most sales positions are commission based, a good company will give its salesforce a livable salary, and on top of THAT, pay good commission to good sellers, not to mention benefits, retirement plan, and vacation.

I also got a letter from the Vector marketing group. I tried to sign up, but when the person on the phone feigned ignorance about what I would be doing there, and about the strangely worded base pay, I chose not to go. It wasn't until a (stupid) friend of mine showed up at our door to sell my mother some knives that I put it all together and laughed in his face.

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Anonymous
May 12, 2009 3:23 PM
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@Matt Palmer: A friend of mine fell for one of those ads when I was in undergrad a few years ago. He ended up selling Cutco for a few months, and made a few thousands bucks out of it, but got tired of trying to set up appointments and ditched it for a real get-rich-slow job.

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CFinWV
May 12, 2009 2:42 PM
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@Matt Palmer: That reminds me... I have my family's old set and they need sharpening. Wonder if they still honor the lifetime sharpening deal.

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masterasia
May 12, 2009 2:41 PM
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@Matt Palmer:
I went to the Vector Marketing recruiting session.
They advertised it as a job paying $12.50. This was a lot back in the day when I was looking for summer jobs.

It started out as a regular job interview. People came dressed up in suits for this. After the interview, he told me that he would call me later to let me know if I was hired or not. My cousin and I both went together. He himself wasn't so smart so I didn't think he would get the job. He barely spoke any English at the time. Later on that day I got a call saying that I have been hired and that training would start tomorrow. I was so happy. I was 18 years old and I would be making $12.50 an hour while all my other college friends were still stuck at McDonald's making only $6 an hour. Also, during the whole interview there was not one mention about selling knives.

I began to suspect something when my cousin told me he got hired too. So we both went to the training together. It was the same guy that interviewed me doing the training. He started off by telling a the story of how poor he was before he started selling Cutco knives and now he's super rich and drives a Lexus and he just spent $10,000 in one night when he asked his girlfriend to marry him. He said he was only 25 years old.

He showed us the product. I thought it was a great product. Really.... they are really good knives. They sell themselves. These are the sharpest serrated knives I have ever seen. The butcher and vegetable knives weren't so bad themselves and they all come with a life time warranty which does work as advertise.

Long story short, the training session was going to be 3 days -> unpaid. One of the requirements was to buy a set of knives for yourself so you can demo it when selling the product. After the first break my cousin and I skedaddled out because we didn't have any money to buy their knives.

A few years later, I went back and bought the knives any way because they are cool knives to have. The serrated knives will cut almost anything. It's been almost 10 years and I have never sharpened any of the knives. They are quite expensive though, I remember shelling out $700 or so for them.

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GuinevereRucker
May 12, 2009 2:57 PM
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@masterasia: I had almost exactly the same experience. I too was excited to be \"hired\" (they picked me!). Then I found out what we'd be doing, and never came back.

The ads are intentionally misleading and don't say what you'll be doing at all.

And we got the knives as a wedding present :)

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Outrun1986
May 12, 2009 4:53 PM
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@GuinevereRucker: I would be a little wary of any job ad that did not tell me what I would be doing to make that money. Even moreso if I managed to pass an interview and they didn't tell me what I would be doing in the interview!

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GuinevereRucker
May 13, 2009 4:32 AM
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@Outrun1986: You're absolutely right, that's wise. Unfortunately being a poor college student at the time, I didn't see the obvious.

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razremytuxbuddy
May 12, 2009 2:56 PM
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@masterasia: I agree that Cutco knives are awesome. So I don't know why they use such a sleazy system for marketing their product. My brother sold them as his first job, so I saw what was wrong with their \"compensation system\" back then. I bought a few knives from him, and have bought several Cutco knives since then. I've always felt he should get a royalty for those subsequent sales.

The new Cutco associates, get started in the program at their expense, while Cutco basically harvests revenues and builds a mailing list from the associate's family and friends.

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TVarmy
May 12, 2009 2:18 PM
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@Matt Palmer: Protip: If you get a job interview letter from \"Vectrix,\" that's the parent company of Cutco. Just throw it out.

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snowburnt
May 12, 2009 2:09 PM
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@Matt Palmer: I knew one person who sold them. They had a set themselves. They were very good knives, but I would hate to try to sell anything door-to-door

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acarr260
May 12, 2009 1:49 PM
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@Matt Palmer: Those knives are dangerous to people like me who shouldn't have razor-sharp knives. My ex sold those (well, tried to sell them) for a summer.

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Matt Palmer
May 12, 2009 2:21 PM
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@acarr260: Sharp knives are actually safer than dull ones.
@ salvatorecondegni: I signed up for cutco just to get the starter set for 150 bucks instead of the 600 dollar retail cost, though you have to have a manager that will sell it to you at cost, most of them mark it up, but still below retail so they make a profit.

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salvatorecondegni
May 12, 2009 1:39 PM
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@Matt Palmer: You can see the starter kit on eBay after you've decided not to sell them anymore. You're almost guaranteed to make your money back and then some.

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salvatorecondegni
May 12, 2009 1:40 PM
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@salvatorecondegni: er... make that *sell the starter kit on eBay*

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dbshaw
May 12, 2009 1:11 PM
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When I was young a friend tried to get me into Amway. Though I was unable to find any obvious flaws in the pitch I eventually turned it down for 3 reasons:

1. For all the talk about how easy it was and how little time people could devote to it and still be successful, it seemed that Amway was all these people ever talked about. All their friends/acquaintances were in Amway, they were always either talking about the Amway meeting they just came from or were planning the next Amway meeting they were going to go to.

2. That the more successful members were constantly selling motivational books/tapes to the newer/less successful members seemed to give the entire enterprise the feeling of shyster and mark.

3. Finally and most tellingly, when I asked my friend how much HE was making, he looked at me as if I should know better, and said in a chiding tone that that was personal business. I agreed out loud and apologized but I was thinking \"But you are asking me to JOIN your BUSINESS! That is absolutely relevant information! I knew then I wasn't going to join.

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sleze69
May 13, 2009 12:58 PM
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@dbshaw: I did Amway for a couple years and, in all honesty, wasn't that bad of an idea. For the people that actually did the process, it did provide a descent income. The problems (and the reason I stopped were):


1- You alienate all your friends and family.

2- It is NOT easy. It is a LOT of hard work.


The sales material that they \"encourage\" you to buy actually helped me (and still helps me) deal with people in life in general. I look back on that time with a smirk.


BTW - does anyone here want to augment their income? Contact me.

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greenunicorns
May 15, 2009 5:21 PM
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@sleze69:

No. Don't contact him. Get a part-time weekend job at carmax or some leasing office at an apartment complex.

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econobiker
May 12, 2009 7:09 PM
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@dbshaw:


\"2. That the more successful members were constantly selling motivational books/tapes to the newer/less successful members seemed to give the entire enterprise the feeling of shyster and mark.\"


That is the way they REALLY make money free and clear of what ever system they are in...

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snowburnt
May 12, 2009 2:17 PM
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@dbshaw: I knew people doing Arbonne and Nutrilife (or something like that...not amway, he had part of his sales pitch devoted to telling you it wasn't amway).

They had a primary job that they were doing pretty well with, but they spend 90% of their time doing stuff to succeed in their MLM. I couldn't help wondering what they'd do when they got fired for time-theft.

Actually the Nutrilife guy (who was constantly yelled at for wearing this gaudy pin that said \"I lost weight! ask me how!\" around the office did get fired. The last I heard he was on unemployment.

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CFinWV
May 12, 2009 2:47 PM
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@Raekwon: Yea, one of my friends is hawking some raw foods scheme. I don't have a problem with the raw food way of life but create a group or something and dump your sales pitches in there.

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snowburnt
May 12, 2009 2:35 PM
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@snowburnt: One more thing on Nutrilife guy: He had a little tool box FILLED with vitamins. The thing reeked and he ended up taking about 30 pills during the time that I had to be around him.

Which leads me to my next point: don't take garlic pills unless your doctor tells you to. They stink and they make you stink

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Real Cheese Flavor
May 12, 2009 2:04 PM
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@dbshaw: Number two on your list is where quite literally all of the money was being made by the high level Amway distributors.

There is an ungodly amount of pressure to purchase books, tapes, and attend seminars and there is little or no return on that \"investment.\"

In fact, the first time I ever heard of mandatory binding arbitration was almost ten years ago when several large Amway distributor organizations forced arbitration agreements on people so that they couldn't be sued once folks wised up and realized they spent tens of thousands of dollars on motivational materials and didn't get shit in return.

I'm not one to usually use bad language, but fuck Amway.

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bohemian
May 12, 2009 3:08 PM
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@Real Cheese Flavor: Amway really becomes bizarre when you research the Prince Family (the ones that started Amway) and their kid Eric that owns Blackwater.

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chris_d
May 12, 2009 4:03 PM
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@bohemian:
Actually Pirnce is married to the daughter of Amway founder Rich (I think it's Rich) DeVoss.

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tcolberg
May 12, 2009 5:42 PM
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@chris_d: There's your trail of evangelism and crazy right there.

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sockrockinbeats
May 12, 2009 1:15 PM
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[www.pinktruth.com] is an awesome website full of ex-mary kay...employees? sellers? i dunno.


but it's very interesting, really shows how they operate.

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EdnaLegume
May 12, 2009 3:17 PM
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@sockrockinbeats: awesome site. I love sites like this! lol my MK friends will hate me now fo sho!

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gparlett
May 12, 2009 1:17 PM
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The worst thing about MLM schemes is how they destroy relationships. I hate having people who I considered friends trying to use me for personal profit. At this point the moment someone asks me if I would like to be my own boss I just cut ties with them for six months and then try back to see if their little fad is over. Sometimes the relationship never recovers. I had a friend I hung out with twice a week for years, who I considered a very close friend, who tried to get me involved in a deal selling water softeners (yes, I'm serious, an MLM selling Water Softeners). I kept trying to change the topic whenever we would hang out, but it was always about the water softeners. Finally I gave up and I honestly haven't seen that guy in six years. Hope the 'small business' worked out for ya bud.

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Gizmosmonster
May 12, 2009 5:36 PM
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@gparlett:
I lost a college roommate friendship to Amway. It still breaks my heart to think about it. Another friend lost his house and his marriage after spending everything build his USANA business. He lost most of his friends too. I now tell anyone who sounds even remotely like they are selling MLM to me that I won't even listen. Not for any reason.

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tcolberg
May 12, 2009 5:46 PM
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@Gizmosmonster: I've been reading this thread looking for people to start talking $h!t about USANA. I almost lost my best friend to it and did for a period of 18 months to two years (somehow she figured out to never ask me about buying anything or getting sucked in).

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chris_d
May 12, 2009 4:13 PM
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@gparlett:
\"The worst thing about MLM schemes is how they destroy relationships.\"
I have to agree. I have a good friend from college who doesn't ever call me anymore because he's too busy with scAmway stuff. He was never too good with women but after being in Amway he met a nice girl but later dumped her because she didn't want to be in Amway.

I wish I could go back in time and stop him from going to that Amway presentation.

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Guvmint_Cheese
May 12, 2009 3:10 PM
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@gparlett: So true. One of my best friends tried to get me into Market America (another cultish MLM). He went to one of their seminars and couldn't stop gushing about it. I found every blog post and article I could possibly locate online to convince him not to do it. When I researched it online, I found that a lot of their 'unfranchise' owners posted identical so-called articles about how it was not a scam. The mark of a scam is when there is coordinated effort to tell you about how it's not a scam.

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HungryTuna
May 12, 2009 3:40 PM
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@Guvmint_Cheese:


Market America cost me my relationship with my best childhood friend. Whenever I'd introduce him to friends, invite him to parties, etc.. He would cease the moment to try his sales pitch (hand out business cards, etc..)


It got so bad I severed our relationship and didn't even visit him in the hospital when he was diagnosed with Leukemia.

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johnva
May 12, 2009 2:47 PM
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@gparlett: MLM is specifically designed to do that - they spread via preexisting human relationships, much like a religion. It's actually a really effective technique (or at least, was, until there were 50 million of them) because people are psychologically primed to trust people they know (you're more likely to take the word of a friend, relative, member of your church, etc than that of a guy who knocks on your door unasked). Like religion, it feeds off of human relationships to sustain itself. Unlike religion, it lies and claims that you're going to get more money back than you put in, so it also exploits people's personal greed. Churches may be a money-making scheme too in some cases, but at least they are honest that you're not getting back a cut of the money you put in their coffers (or at least, most of them are...the prosperity gospel types are a bit more MLM-like).

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Raekwon
May 12, 2009 2:25 PM
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@gparlett: My friend's Facebook page has turned into a NUSKIN garbage science ad spam extravaganza. I really don't know how to tell him he is alienating us.

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Reid Antonacchio
May 12, 2009 1:51 PM
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@gparlett: Right there with you. It seems like everyone I bump into that I knew in High School has started one and is trying to recruit me. They all have the office depot business cards with some company name that they thought up on the spot. I avoid them at all costs.

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SanDiegoDude
May 12, 2009 1:18 PM
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I had a friend get scooped into the energy \"juice\" craze that whipped through recently. He tried for about 5 minutes to get me on board... I told him as much as I value our friendship, to never try to get me on board for a pyramid scheme again. He insisted it wasn't a pyramid scheme but quit trying to get \"sell\" me on it. About 6 months later we were watching some TV and an amway commercial came on. I asked him how his \"business\" was going... He said the Pyramid toppled and he was left 1000 dollars down after buying a bunch of crappy juice.

... Poor guy. His wife seems to do okay with her passion party thing she throws. All the ladies in our circle of friends love going to those...

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zandar
May 12, 2009 3:09 PM
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@SanDiegoDude: When I was a kid the moms had their tupperware parties, but really seemed to know how to handle it. They got drunk, ate pot-luck appetizers, gossiped and talked very little about tupperware. In the end they just all had a nice little collection of tupperware and some nice memories. I actually thought tupperware was a good influence in a weird way- without some external impetus like tupperware, isolated housewives of the sixties wouldn't have gotten to cut loose as much as they did.

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floraposte
May 12, 2009 6:39 PM
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@zandar: That's an interesting thought. I also suspect that the combination of low pressure, low cost, and high social component made them pretty workable, in that the hostess wasn't really bothered if people didn't buy much and most guests could usefully add a container or two.

I went to a Tupperware party in San Francisco about twenty years ago. It was fun, and I've still got a few things from it. It's about the only home marketing thing that I'd still be willing to attend.

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Fixta Fernback
May 12, 2009 1:20 PM
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I accidentally got roped into one of these abominations in Columbus, OH. In retrospect, I should have known what I was getting into. Always watch out for phrases like, \"Hands-on experience with clients\" since \"hands-on\" equals \"door-to-door\" and \"clients\" equals \"people who slam the door in your face\".

I had a great first interview with this company, which said that they provide marketing services for Time Warner. Since they said they do business with a major player such as Time Warner, I thought that it was a more legit business especially since their office in Columbus was quite attractive. However, the second \"hands-on\" interview was a four hour door-to-door excursion. I wouldn't have worn my suit (and I would have brought a gun) had I known I would be walking through crumby towns trying to sell people Time Warner cable.

Live and learn.

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pb5000
May 12, 2009 2:58 PM
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@.Xenn.: My sister interviewed with a similar company who resold phone service to businesses. They interview you and then ask if you'd like to join them for an all day interview for some \"on the job training\" which is enticed by the promise of free lunch. According to my sister, the job was walking into rite aids and cvs hassling the cashiers about their company phone lines, something they have no care or influence over in the first place. She said the first couple of stores they went into immediately kicked them out once they started talking, then the third must have gotten a tip from a neighboring one and wouldn't even let them in.

Also, the meeting place is on one end of town and they drive you to the other end of town to do your prospecting. My sister told the lady at lunch she wasn't interested and the lady left her at the restaurant, an hours drive from her car. Fortunately for my sis, it was our side of town so it wasn't difficult getting someone to meet her at the restaurant, but she still had to get to the other side of town to get her car later that day. It was a joke.

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deedub113
May 13, 2009 8:55 PM
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@pb5000: This sounds like the same \"company\" I got suckered into summer break of my Junior Year in college. This was in Centerline, MI and I responded to an Ad in the newspaper, saying something like \"Marketing Company seeking entry-level associates for a variety of positions. We work with top Fortune 500 companies!\" Being a naive college kid, I went along with it and they totally did some Jedi mind-trick on me, having me thinking it was legit. I should have known the minute I walked in the door for an interview. All I could hear was crazy clapping and shouting in the room next door.(they were pumping themselves up to go door-to door) On my first \"hands - on\" day we were doing exactly what Xenn was, trying to convince small businesses to change their phone service to AT&T. Totally harmless right?? LOL. So the trainer I was with was totally into it. I'll never forget as we walked through one business that clearly had a \"No Solicitation\" sticker on the front door. The business owner confronted her on this and was quite vocal about leaving if we didn't have a license or permit or something to be doing what we were doing. She said to him...\"Oh no problem sir, I have it in the car. We'll go get it and be right back.\" We leave, get to the car, and start pulling away. I said, \"Aren't we going back?\" She says, \"Oh no...we don't have anything like that\".

It was a horrible experience, however my BS detector for jobs is finely tuned!

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masterasia
May 12, 2009 8:28 PM
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@pb5000: Reminds me of this one time when I went to Orlando. I signed up for this Time-Share thing to get 2 free tickets to Sea World and a free lunch. When the lady that was showing us the Time Share found out I had no money and no intention of buying she became angry and starting yelling me for wasting her time and left me at the restaurant. I still got my free tickets and free lunch and didn't even have to stay for the whole thing. What was funny was that there was actually people buying this crap.

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anduin
May 13, 2009 1:10 AM
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@masterasia:
awesome, i did that too when i went to orlando, got a pair of tickets to universal :)

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Outrun1986
May 12, 2009 4:59 PM
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@pb5000: Ugh this is horrible, what happens if you have to shop at those stores in the future after the MLM collapses (everyone has to shop), then you will be remembered as the MLM lady that we had to kick out of the store and they might kick you out even if your just there to buy stuff.

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Fixta Fernback
May 12, 2009 4:06 PM
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@pb5000:

Yep. I can't even believe these companies are legal.

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TacoChuck
May 12, 2009 1:22 PM
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There is a social networking equivalent of MLM (almost now that I think about it, there are no upfront costs or things to buy ongoing). It is called [ZenZuu.com] . It is like facebook or myspace, but they claim to share back the ad revenue with you. You get people to sign up under your name and share in the revenue they generate. I think it goes down a few levels as well, so there is a definite upstream and downstream. If you decide to check them out, sign up with the link here for kicks.

There is a guy I walk my dog with and he bugged me for months to sign up under him. I finally did just to satisfy him, but I warned him ahead of time, I had no friends so it wasn't going to do much good. I find the idea at least interesting. I expect them to fail, but who knows.

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Haltingpoint
May 14, 2009 6:03 PM
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@TacoChuck: While the other responses have given you the lashing you deserve for tactlessly dropping an affiliate link in MLM discussions, there is one thing I want to point out.

If someone provides you advice on a service online, and gives you a link, make sure you do your research if they hand you an affiliate link, because they have a vested interest in you signing up and are not an impartial source of advice.

Now that said, when I know I am going to sign up for something and a friend recommended that service to me, I may goa head and use their affiliate link because it costs me nothing and is a nice way of saying thanks.

Bottom line is, always do your research.

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Skankingmike
May 12, 2009 6:51 PM
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@TacoChuck: You know I have a time share in Boca..........

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snowburnt
May 12, 2009 4:43 PM
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@TacoChuck: You are one classy lassy.

Mods, can we get this disemvoweled?

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Delixer
May 12, 2009 4:16 PM
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@TacoChuck: lol, and the link going to your referral? You can tell a scam with words like \"If you decide to check them out, sign up with the link here for kicks\"...

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Reid Antonacchio
May 12, 2009 1:25 PM
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Good to see that you linked it to your profile

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ncboxer
May 12, 2009 1:25 PM
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Most people view Amway as different from your Pampered Chef parties. With Amway, the \"party\" you get invited to is just to convince you join Amway have your own parties to convince people to join Amway and buy their junk. Most people I know would view an Amway party as tacky and would be offended if their friends ambushed them with a party. But the very same people throw these stupid pampered chef or cosmetics parties and think nothing of it. Part of these parties is to get your hapless friends to order something (looking for the cheapest thing in the catalog), and half is to convince people to hold their own parties in order to generate income.

Both are the same in my mind. MLM at its finest. Very few people actually make money.

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seandavid010
May 12, 2009 1:27 PM
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Yeah, we've got one out here called Melaluca, which is essentially like Amway, and a bunch of those \"Sell alarm systems in the summertime\" places as well. God, I really need to get the hell out of here...

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IfThenElvis
May 12, 2009 1:47 PM
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I knew a suburban Dad who lost everything to Amway. He was sucked into the Amway hype and left his job to be a full time Amway rep. He spent more on books, tapes and seminars than he could ever make back in commissions. Like most reps he didn't want to sell to end users, he wanted to be at the top of the pyramid directing and taking a cut from others. The last time I saw him his wife and kids had left and friends were avoiding him.

I went to one meeting at his house before I knew what he he was up to. He was not so subtly following the play book, counting heads, and removing chairs from the room so that some people would have to stand.

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henwy
May 12, 2009 1:53 PM
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I've always thought of this sort of thing as a stupidity tax. It's like those people who send you checks asking only that you wire 90% of it onward. Pure stupidity tax.

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bohemian
May 12, 2009 3:04 PM
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@henwy: Oh yes. MLM marketing, giving half your income to the 700 Club (or nearest greedy evangelist), buying used cars from those self finance places that only tell you the monthly payment, check cashing stores, renting furniture.

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dragonfire81
May 12, 2009 3:45 PM
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@bohemian: How is an evangelist doing MLM? I'm missing a connection here.

And about the Vector thing, I'm pretty sure they pay commission only and the whole $13/hour BS is because that's you could POTENTIALLY make if you sold knives to everyone and their sister.

Cutco uses this method because it allows them to use an inexpensive workforce of contractors they do not need to pay benefits or give any perks to.

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Kaellorian
May 12, 2009 1:55 PM
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I'm surprised to see a dearth of MLM defenders here.

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sirwired
May 12, 2009 1:56 PM
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The easiest way to differentiate a barely-legal pyramid scheme (Amway, YTB, etc.) from a legitimate MLM (Avon, Tupperware, etc.) is to look at the sales emphasis.

If most of your training and expected sales is sale of \"the business\", it's a worthless pyramid.

If the focus of your training and sales is on actually selling stuff at a profit to real customers that aren't involved with the company, then it's likely to be an actual, legit, business.

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econobiker
May 12, 2009 7:13 PM
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@sirwired: The other easy way to suss them out is ask what the profit margins are on the products.


If they actually give an answer, it better be 30% or better to make a living. And it better be at a selling price close to retail store price...


Ie buy at $10 sell at $13 but only if the retail price is between $12.50 and $14.00. If the retail price is $9 then walk away...

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chris_d
May 12, 2009 4:25 PM
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@sirwired:
Excellent. I couldn't have said it better. The only thing I might add is that I just realized that if companies like Amway were about retailing products, why charge for \"training\" materials? If your goal is to sell products, you're going to want to make sure your salespeople are well trained. But they charge lots of money for materials and seminars because it's not about retailing products at all. In fact, the real money is in the \"training\" and the sign-up fees. Recruits think the training is there to help them sell the products (soap, toothpaste, etc.), but in reality, the soap, toothpaste, etc., is there to sell the training materials and seminars to the recruits! The retail products, which only the recruits end up buying (as my friend found out, there is no retail opportunity), are just icing on the cake.

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WelcomeToMyWorld
May 12, 2009 3:08 PM
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@sirwired: That's a good point. In a way, selling Girl Scout cookies could be called multi-level marketing, but it's definitely not a pyramid scheme.

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savdavid
May 12, 2009 2:04 PM
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When a friend starts pushing crap like this on me, I avoid them like the plague and it usually spells the end of our friendship. They won't listen to you if you try to tell them they made a big mistake (Kinda like Christians) because they have sunk too much money and faith into it (tithes and faith for Christians or any religion).

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Ayo
May 12, 2009 2:07 PM
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My girlfriend got mad at me when i told her that the Mona-Vie drink was a MLM scheme, and that the business model only makes since for the guys on the top of the pyramid. I explained to her about the faulure rate of first time \"salespeople.\"

She said I shouldn't be so negative.... pff.

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jamar0303
May 12, 2009 2:07 PM
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Speaking of which, there's a good reason why the biggies of the MLM world aren't going to die any time soon. They've got China. But since Chinese regulations on MLMs are tighter, they actually have to put out a bit- corporate has to fund TV commercials, print ads, etc. so you don't have to scrounge up customers yourself. And they don't encourage these \"party\" things either- I've been discreetly offered a business card while waiting for lunch at a restaurant, I've seen an Avon shop (of course stocked with actual products- I guess someone's making money), but never a \"party\".

Which brings me to one point- why is the US so lax on these things?

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Underpants Gnome
May 12, 2009 2:07 PM
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I like the commercial they run saying they have over 3 million people running their own businesses, and over 7 billion in sales. Meaning their average business does just over $2k in sales a year. And this is what they advertise, not even talking about franchise fees, the cost of your time, the cost of people like me laughing in your face, etc...

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h3llc4t, breaker of office dress codes
May 12, 2009 2:10 PM
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@snowburnt: My boyfriend was a Cutco rep for a few weeks when he dropped out of college. I think he sold one set total. To his mom. They're awesome knives though.

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zyodei
May 12, 2009 2:22 PM
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I once was stuck sharing a hotel room with a Quixtar (ie, Amway dot com) guy. We were there siteing out a Salt Lake City China town. The first thing he told me was that \"it's so great, you don't have to sell it.\" Then he spent the next three days trying to fucking sell it as I was trying to sleep. I wanted to slap his fat face. At the end, I forgot my tact and told him exactly what I thought about him, his so called \"independent business,\" and what he was doing with his life. He had sold his hardware store to hawk it..what a shame, at least that provides something useful to the world.

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econobiker
May 12, 2009 7:19 PM
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@zyodei: At the height of the dot.com boom my ex-wife and I were approached by a Quixtar couple via one of her work contacts. They were a classic early 40s cougar female and early 30s prey male couple. They spouted the Quixtar line (which I was able to verify was Amway doing Dot Com after they left) for the most of an evening dinner to which WE had invited them -(silly us).


About the best thing of the whole evening was looking at her surgically enhanced mammary glands which were promenently displayed via her too open dress. The ex-wife didn't like that either...

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revmatty
May 12, 2009 3:00 PM
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@zyodei: I knew a guy that did Quixtar for a while, alienated all his friends of course. The funniest thing was how aggressively he insisted that it was NOT Amway when he was trying to get people interested. I spent 30 seconds doing a whois on the domain and said \"See, owned by Amway\" and he told me I was an asshole. Which I am. He stopped talking to me, so I figure I came out ahead anyway.

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carline711
May 12, 2009 2:37 PM
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Sadly as a recent college graduate you see these all over when you're applying for jobs... Quixtar, Rockland, AG Concepts...

Now that I think about it, Consumerist should post some sorta MLM scam list. Hell, I'd contribute to that! Worth $10 if i can never have to interview with companies like that!

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chris_d
May 12, 2009 4:16 PM
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@carline711:
Prepare to be sued then. Scamway sues anyone who says anything negative about them, truth be damned.

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SteelersAreGo
May 12, 2009 8:40 PM
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@chris_d: And on the 8th day, the good lord created the countersuit... :)

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Jeangenie
May 12, 2009 4:01 PM
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@carline711: Definitely. It is a shame to see desperate folks think they have a lifeline and it turns out to be these predators.

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Teradoc
May 12, 2009 2:46 PM
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@carline711:
That is actually a good idea, a list like the Executive Carpet Bomb except it tells you what companies are what and infamous for and what to watch out for

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JGKojak
May 12, 2009 3:05 PM
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Even legit sales (for instance, reps for replacement windows) I often wonder about-- if a salesman is in your home, their is a cut they're taking from the product-- meaning that somewhere, you'll be able to buy it cheaper directly from a manufacturer or independent contractor.


We needeed replacement windows- had one window company tell me I had to spend $8000(!) When I said \"Whoa- that's way out of my league\" then suddenly he pretended to do some chicken-scratching on some paper, and said \"I can get them to you for $3800\". Same windows? \"Yes.\" Then get out of my house. How dare you try to take a $4000 commission off me and my family.

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spoco
May 12, 2009 3:17 PM
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@JGKojak: Window salesmen are the worst scum of the earth. The reason they don't get all of the attention is that most people never deal with them.

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serreca
May 12, 2009 3:15 PM
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned Kirby here yet.

We got suckered into a demonstration last year. They were masquerading as reps from a new carpet-cleaning company and offered to clean one room free. Against my better judgment, I agreed.

Two different people came back about 30 minutes later hauling all the Kirby boxes into my living room.

The vacuum seemed great but I was so put off by their methods, and having to buy on-the-spot, that I said no.

We eventually had to ask the salesman to leave when he'd been there about 2.5 hours and we wanted to eat dinner.

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spoco
May 12, 2009 3:20 PM
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@serreca: Holy crap. I consider my parents well educated, smart people, but damn it if they did not buy a Kirby when I was about 12. Never used the damn thing. I still mess with my dad about that.

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serreca
May 12, 2009 3:24 PM
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@spoco: It's a great product but it's *so* expensive. And not being able to sleep on it before spending over $1,000 for a vacuum cleaner? No thanks. I hate high-pressure sales tactics like that.

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spoco
May 12, 2009 3:28 PM
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@serreca: I bought an Oreck - $400 was too high for me, but its a nice product.

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Outrun1986
May 12, 2009 5:09 PM
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@spoco: We have an Oreck here too, we went into the store to buy it, and didn't invite a saleman into our house. Its really the only vacuum you can get that does not look like a freakin' robot and weighs 30lbs or more and will last more than a year. Its expensive but you get the vacuum and the canister vac so you don't have to buy a canister vac separate. We need to be able to haul it up the stairs, and I don't care to get a back injury from lifting and pushing my vacuum. The person at the store was extremely nice and did not try to push extras and the product comes with a warranty so you don't have to purchase an additional one. I appreciate a company that does not try to push extras these days. It was the most low pressure purchase my family has ever made.

The Oreck sells itself since it is a good product.

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spoco
May 12, 2009 5:39 PM
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@Outrun1986: We bought it out of direct mail. Of course we had friends that swore by them. I've had that thing for four years. Zero issues.

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econobiker
May 12, 2009 7:23 PM
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@spoco: We have an old Oreck that was from a relative's estate. Great little item though I wouldn't spend $ for one myself.


I can dig why they are used in hotel/motel housekeeping as it is very light weight and seems to leave very good vacuum tracks when pulled backward.

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HogwartsAlum
May 12, 2009 8:34 PM
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@econobiker:

There's an Oreck store here (or there was; I hope it's still there) and I plan on checking that out when my Riccar finally dies. Only it won't die.

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Jack T Ripper
May 12, 2009 3:16 PM
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There are several legitimate MLMs out there that have fine products. As it has been mentioned, Avon, Tupperware, Pampered Chef, Discovery Toys, Stampin' Up!, USANA, etc. are all very successful and long standing direct sales companies. You have to learn how to separate the real opportunities from the scams and opportunities that have really no potential for real income generation. Unless you are doing it just for the discount on proudcts (as many of the associates in previously mentioned MLMs do) then it is very hard to make money at that kind of thing unless you get in on the ground level of a really great opportunity.

Not all structures that look like a pyramid are scams. Take a look at the company you work for. Does it not look exactly the same way? The president at the top and then some VPs under him and Directors under them and Managers under them all the way down through all levels of middle management and finally to the peons. It is the way all corporations are structured. The concept of a 'pyramid scheme' is where you are basically just selling positions in the pyramid without having a product. Pay $200 for a position in the tree and then everybody you sign up for at the same price will roll money back up to you. You get $30 for everybody you sign up and $5 for everybody they sign up. It rolls up the tree and everybody gets rich, but none so much as the guy at the top. In the end all they are selling is a spot in the pyramid and no product. It is also called a Ponzi scheme. Don't get a Pyramid or Ponzi scheme confused with a genuine direct sales opportunity though.

I don't sell direct sales company products, but I have enough respect for education to know how to do my research when I see something questionable. Don't just hate all direct sales companies because you don't understand them. Sure there are a lot of scams to watch out for, but hating all MLMs because there are some that are scams is like hating all emails for the same reason. You just have to learn how to turn on your filters. ;)

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anduin
May 12, 2009 6:52 PM
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@ocdetails:
except that pyramid schemes are deceptive and try to hide what they really are, when you work for a corporation, most of the time you advance based on experience, merit of your work and not being a jackass.

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GeneticDisorder
May 12, 2009 3:23 PM
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I feel so left out...I have never been invited to join an MLM scam. I'd love to go to an Amway party with a box of Natural Ice under my arm and see how much fun it could be selling soap to my friends and family. \"Hey, how about a bowl of some of those Amway pretzels?!? Got any Amway shrimp? I hope you got a roll of Amway toilet paper because I don't think that bag of peaches I ate on the ride over is gonna mix well with malt liquor...\"

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theblackdog
May 12, 2009 5:25 PM
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@GeneticDisorder: That's what you get for not eating Amway Shrimp with your malt liquor ;-)

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Guvmint_Cheese
May 12, 2009 7:43 PM
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@theblackdog: I prefer the Dharma malt liquor myself. Now if they start up an MLM of Dharma Initiative products, count me in!

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trixare4kids
May 12, 2009 3:26 PM
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I've probably mentioned this before, but my father is in Amway (or quixtar or whatever it's called now) -- he's been in it for 10 years. He has NOTHING to show for it, except a garage full of Amyway products. I think he has ONE person \"downstream\" from him.

He used to try to get me into \"The Business\" -- once he even invited me down to his city for dinner, which turned out to be an Amyway meeting. UGH. I turned around and left.

He's always talking about \"The Business\" and saying things, like well, \"So and so is a Diamond in the business and he says blah blah blah.\"

Amyway isn't about selling products anymore as far as I can tell. Rather, it's in the business of selling motivational tapes and books from upstream to downstream.

My father is expected/required to buy all these materials from his \"upstream\" every single month.

These tapes and packages cost hundreds of dollars every month! And my poor father really thinks that if he listens to all these tapes, if he reads all these books he's going to be successful. Poor ol' dad. I've never listened to a tape, but I have browsed through some of his books while visiting his house and I have to say it's very poorly written crap.

Amyway is also in the business of seminars. My dad is required to attend these motivational seminars in other cities. So he had to fly or drive there, pay for a hotel, pay $200 for the seminar -- only to be kept awake for 48 hours with the stomping, cheering.. they work them into a frenzy not unlike any other religious organization or cult. It's BRAIN WASHING! My dad is required to buy two tickets to each seminar from his upstream person, even if he can't attend.

I just feel sorry for him. My father was always a joiner, getting himself involved with quirky things, but this has gone on for so long.

CULT CULT CULT CULT

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anduin
May 12, 2009 6:55 PM
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@trixare4kids:
how is he required, he doesn't have to do it... I feel bad for him but seriously, if someone can't figure out that a venture like that is a scam then there's no real sympathy for them.

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spoco
May 12, 2009 3:26 PM
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My wife and I have a legitimate small business on the side. Basically we have a web site set up, get people there through online advertising and sell items. We do okay and have always wondered if we needed to go full time with it.


My idea is to hire \"independent sales agents\" and pay them an unreal percentage of the profit as a commission. My worry is that folks will think its an MLM scam so I haven't pulled the trigger. I have watched MLM scams tear my wife's family apart - I don't want anything to do with them.

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Haltingpoint
May 14, 2009 8:32 PM
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@spoco: What you are looking for is called an affiliate program. The affiliate industry is HUGE and there are MANY successful affiliates out there. To get started, you need to find an affiliate network to run your offer, or host your own program with the software you can buy for it.

In order to attract affiliates who will be good and make you money, you need a product that sells, and a site that converts.

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h1dekikun
May 13, 2009 11:47 PM
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@spoco: @spoco: This is already being done at Clickbank. Basically on the site you are either a seller or a promoter. If you are a seller, you have a product, and you pay promoter a huge commission, like 30-80% on the final sale price.

If you are a promoter, your job is to find people willing to buy the product. Often the things being sold are niche e-books, so after the initial writing of them, aside from the time invested, its nearly 100% profit with no overhead.

The model wouldn't work so well with a tangible product, as there would be overhead involved.

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econobiker
May 12, 2009 7:26 PM
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@spoco: There are legit ways to recruit legit sales people. Or get a rep for your business who handles multiple businesses just as long as none of them compete with yours...

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temporaryerror
May 12, 2009 3:31 PM
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I, like many people had a friend in college that got suckered into the Quixtar thing. At first he would invite people over to \"hang out\" and just try and get us to do Quixtar. After a while no one would want to be around him, and everyone would weasel out of his invitations. He went so far as to make everyone listen to the seminars recorded live featuring the \"diamond level\" people talking about how much their life had changed on a 10 hr car ride...
fortunately, he wised up and dumped Quixtar, and he's an ok guy to be around again.

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Notsewfast
May 12, 2009 3:45 PM
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My mother got into Arbonne about 2 or 3 years ago, thinking she was going to make tons of cash, and my explanation was this:

A real company wants customers, not employees. Looking at the strategies that the managers laid out, it seemed that the goal was to have everyone that you know working for you, then have everyone that they know work for them, and so on. The problem is this: Say there is a potential customer base (people that will buy Arbonne products over alternatives) of 300 million globally; Ideally all 300 million of them would be employees and you would have no customers.

There is a point of saturation in a normal business where it becomes a 'cash cow', but Arbonne and the like only grow closer to implosion as their employee base grows and their customer base shrinks. Its totally unsustainable.

If your business' primary revenue is not from the products or services that it sells, run.

Needless to say, she stopped selling the stuff when she realized that she wasn't making any money.

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iConsumer
May 12, 2009 3:55 PM
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I'm not the only one that thinks the same of those Owen Corning basement people, am I? They quoted me something 10X what I was thinking a basement refinishing should cost - after telling me I shouldn't even want to finish as much of the basement as I did. After I told them no, they repeatedly called for months afterwords offering to lower the price - stating everything from sales, re-review & finding \"errors\" in the original quote, discussions with managers, etc... It seemed like a good product, but I wouldn't buy from them at any price now.

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lowercase
May 12, 2009 4:18 PM
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My parents did the Amway thing too, but only for a year or two before they got tired of it, then when the tapes/seminars thing blew up they bailed for good. Basically it came out that the top folks really were making more on tapes than on product, and a large group staged a revolt. No idea what happened there in the end though.

Like everyone else so far, they dumped far more into seminars, tapes, and weekly meeting time than they ever got back. Jeopardized relationships with friends & family, paid 10-30% more for amway products than equivalents at the store, etc, etc.

But here's the key to it all- when you tell your friends that it's a mistake and you don't want to hear about it, the cult is sending them tapes saying \"if your friends don't want in, they're not smart and they're not your friends.\"

The people who make it to the top are brilliant salesmen, but I'm convinced that anyone with the sales skills to make money at Amway could make triple in the first two years selling for a real company (even cars or real estate, doesn't matter), then start a legitimate entrepreneurship and become millionaires that way instead.

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Outrun1986
May 12, 2009 5:18 PM
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@lowercase: Yeah, the cult is basically telling you not to have friends if they are not into amway, quixtar or whatever the cult is. This is the way it destroys relationships and could ultimately destroy the person's life who bought into it. Its terrible really that there are tons of cults out there that set out to destroy relationships like this.

I am quick to dump friends so if this happened to me I wouldn't have any trouble losing the person for the rest of my life. Frankly I wouldn't want to be friends with someone dumb enough to buy into one of these schemes. I guess these schemes really help you identify who your true friends are, if they are willing to lose you over Amway or Quixtar then they probably won't make good friends in the future anyways. Money is king in this society and these schemes help you identify those people who value money over everything else.

But yeah I would kinda feel sorry for them because they are ruining it for themselves.

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cmdrsass
May 12, 2009 4:40 PM
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My favorite part about the MLM aftermath is the great length people go through to extol the virtues of that Cutco knife set or that Kirby vacuum in an effort to not feel like such a sucker.

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econobiker
May 12, 2009 7:29 PM
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@cmdrsass: I have bought and sold Cutco stuff through Goodwill, flea markets, and yard sales... never from a salesperson.

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Paddlacus
May 12, 2009 4:41 PM
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I have a friend who's involved with Primerica, the citibank mlm organization. I went to one of the meetings (I'd also been to a quixtar one) and was actually impressed. While it does involve getting others under you, what I liked was that you weren't selling STUFF, but rather financial services and advice, actually helping people organize their lives and get out of debt.

The thing you need to know about any mlm is that they are never easy. It's a start-up business like any other.

I remember at the quixtar meeting I went to, after listening for an hour about how I could \"live the dream\" and go on cruises for 8 months a year. I took a break and went to the parking lot and looked at what types of cars these dreamers had. One BMW - other than that it could have been a walmart parking lot.
Don't fall for hype, but from what I've seen, Primerica (at least the branch I saw) genuinely seem to be happy helping people. Too much work for me though.

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BeyondtheTech
May 12, 2009 8:47 PM
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@SameenaIshbob: Ya, I fell for the Primerica hype a few years back. I can't remember what level I got up to, but I will say that I did make some money (more than I invested in), but ultimately felt that I had better morals than my upline - I didn't want to scam or coerce people to having them join, friends and family started to avoid me, and the fact that they were so disorganized made me finally quit and get back to real life.

It taught me a lot though, and at least I can use that experience to my advantage, and spot the next hype before buying into it.

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timjohnson1717
May 12, 2009 4:45 PM
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I have been doing amway for a few months and i have not had any bad experiences, a close friend of mine has been doing it now for 14 months and is turning a nice profit.

It is not get rich quick, i have not attended a single seminar or bought a book or tape. I simply use the products in my life rather then buying them at the store, and promote the ones i enjoy, this is how our entire team does it and a few are already getting their 20k bonus checks.

there is nothing wrong with amway at all, they make great stuff, you just have to be smart enough to not give your money back to them through books and motivational crap.

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working class Zer0
May 12, 2009 5:03 PM
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I can't believe no one mentioned Primercia yet.
I went to a seminar and at the end the guy tells me
he wants $100.00. I don't think so. They also wanted you to start out by selling to family and friends (red flag for me), they also told me that I should take out a home equity loan and invest it (another red flag). In the end I didn't join. By the way they are owned by Citigroup.

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humphrmi
May 16, 2009 4:43 AM
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@working class Zer0: I used to get calls from Primerica all the time. The kicker was, most of what they sold was mortgages. In the early 2000's, that was easy money, no matter who you sold to. If someone in your family did a $700K refi, you got a half a point, they got some cash out of their property that would \"never go down in value\", and Primerica sold the mortgage to Citibank, and they securitized it and sold it to some investors with roman numerals behind their fund names. Everybody won. Until they didn't. We all saw what happened next.

It's no wonder Citicorp tried unsuccessfully to sell Primerica after things started going pear-shaped for them. Nobody wanted them, they were damaged goods. I do feel sorry for the people who got caught up in their swindle though.

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Gizmosmonster
May 12, 2009 5:29 PM
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USANA nearly ruined a dear friend's financial future. It is not about selling the overpriced vitamins, it is about bringing in more people to bring in more people to bring in more people.

She spent a fortune on classes and conventions and meetings, all about expanding her \"lines\" of people. She had a closet full of \"products\" nobody wanted to buy. But she had to spend $200 a month herself to keep her spot in the USANA family.

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Anonymous
May 12, 2009 6:51 PM
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Ugh. Most people experience the wrath of one company...Amway then Quixtar now Amway again or a company that doesn't fall far from the Amway tree.

I earn a multi-six figure income from home and have never once chased, pressured or lost any of my friends.

I get paid in the same manner as an affiliate program (like this web site!). I drive sales to my company and they reward me based on a % of those sales. The volume takes place on multi levels (much like any sales organization).

Every one has a story, but most of the time those stories do not deal in the reality of today's $100 Billion global direct sales marketplace that includes Network Marketing company owners like Warren Buffet, Richard Branson and Donald Trump.

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anduin
May 12, 2009 7:44 PM
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the discussions in this thread are some of the best ever, I love all the stories of people getting ripped off and how scammy these places are. At my university there were flyers everywhere sputing $17 !! an hour sales jobs that didn't mention company name, objectives, anything other than a a phone number and to be personable. Me and a friend called them before a class and asked them exactly what they were, turns out they too were one of these MLM companies asking us to go to a meeting to see what they're all about...like why wouldn't you just put it on the flyer, a website, anything to make it not look like a scam.

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robotwaste
May 12, 2009 7:49 PM
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My parents got stuck in some pyramid company selling Meleluca products. It was set up exactly like Amway, but they couldn't see how it was a pyramid scheme. It was like they were brainwashed.

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MFfan310
May 12, 2009 7:57 PM
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All this and no talk of the new cellphone/VoIP MLM scams, such as Lightyear Alliance?

I've seen posters for local representatives from \"Lightyear Wireless\" (a division of Lightyear Alliance) on campus. Their plans are junk (look ma, no unlimited calling!), and their phones are outdated models that are up to 3 years old (who wants an LG LX6100?). Plus their VoIP service is overpriced... Vonage and Comcast Digital Voice are cheaper, and probably more reliable. Heck, I would trust a magicJack before a MLM telco.

The good news: it doesn't look like anyone's buying their products... people are sticking with the well-known cellphone companies (AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, etc.), along with the likes of Verizon, Comcast, and Embarq for the their phone service.

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Anonymous
May 12, 2009 8:19 PM
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Amway is not a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal and they would have been shut down long ago were that the case. MLM is a viable business when done correctly and the company cannot police the actions of new members all the time due to the distributed nature of operations.

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humphrmi
May 16, 2009 4:55 AM
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@DelannaDufie: I've heard this argument before. \"Pyramid schemes are illegal, Amway is not illegal, therefore Amway is not a pyramid scheme.\" It's all based on a single court case that determined that Amway was not violating pyramid scheme laws.

OK, smart guy, can you join Amway without buying a kit? Back in the old days, that \"kit\" included such valuable items as: order forms. That was it. Then the court case that every Amway dealer loves to quote that proves that Amway is not a pyramid scheme also mandated that Amway has to include actual product in their starter kit.

So now it's legal, because the people who get you to sign up and buy the starter kit are actually selling you \"product\" (e.g. the samples in the kit),not just worthless paper.

Yay.

But as soon as you start attending your direct's meetings, you learn it's not about selling product anymore. It's about getting more people. Ask your friends. Ask your family. If they are put off because you asked, screw them. They never loved you to begin with.

Yeah, it's not a pyramid, just barely. And it is barely legal. But that doesn't mean that it's a viable business.

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dj_scribe
May 12, 2009 8:21 PM
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I haven't seen anybody mention \"Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing\" yet. Seems to be pretty popular around North Carolina. This MLM scheme...err, opportunity...seems to be centered around cell phone service and Dish Network service (also vitamins, alarm systems, identity protection). The claim is that if you are basically a reseller for those services (reselling to your friends and family), and you get a cut of their monthly statement (about 2%/month). But, like most of the others mentioned, your primary responsibility is growing the pyramid - where you'll get a percentage (1/4%) of the downstream sells.

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HogwartsAlum
May 12, 2009 8:38 PM
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Probably the worst experience I ever had with an MLM was when my aunt was selling that melaluca oil stuff. I was living in CA at the time, and she came out to see family (she's from CA originally) and stopped off in Santa Cruz to visit with me. I was really excited about seeing her and spending my lunch hour at work with her.

The entire time, ALL she talked about was the damn melaluca crap. She gave me samples and told me about the business, and the blah blah blah blah-de-blah. I interrupted her at one point to ask about my cousins and she said \"Oh, they're fine,\" and went on talking about the damn tea trees. It ruined the visit completely.

Thankfully, this phase didn't last!

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Anonymous
May 12, 2009 8:46 PM
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Funny and sad,

Here we see the typical losers club forum, all started by an anti MLM zealot. lol Reality is, most fail because they quit, or worse, never put any effort into a home business to begin with. I have know many winners, and many losers in MLM, and the one thing that is always the same, quitters are losers and losers are quitters. lol

If you think MLM is so bad, then you never found a good company, it is as simple as that. I have researched them all, and I agree, most use hype of get rich quick which is a sure sign of a scam. Network marketing takes work, if not, they would have called it netNOwork marketing, but they didn't.

Heck, I am surprised no one mentioned Donald Trumps new MLM launching at end of year. Since his Apprentice highlighted ACN on one of his recent shows, you can count on the fact he will promote his deal on his show this fall. If the Trump name doesn't bring new awareness and feasability of MLM as a good part time income opportunity, nothing will. lol

Personally, if you find a company that offers true verifiable value, high demand, exclusive service or product and of high quality, anyone can succeed at MLM, not so in most businesses, so before you allow a bunch of losers posting how bad MLM is taint your desire for success, do your due diligence, there are hundreds of great companies out there to choose from, I have been full time online marketer for past ten years and would never go back to traditional business, or worse, a job. lol

You are what you make of yourself, and most are not cut out to be in their own business. There are leaders and followers, so if you are a follower, stick to the uncertainty of having a job, if you can find one in this economy. I target only recession proof businesses, and it is paying off big time.

Success to all,

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humphrmi
May 16, 2009 5:00 AM
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@TorreyEteocles: What is \"lol Reality\"? How are people who avoid scams losers? Oh wait, they don't line your pockets. Right.

What does \"lol If you think\" mean?

Who is Donald Trumps?

What does \"lol Personally\" mean?

What does \"lol You are what you make of yourself\" mean?

Clearly you're laughing out loud about the values you espouse. I guess they're a big joke.

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anduin
July 11, 2009 10:41 PM
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@humphrmi:
man he's been brainwashed big time... \"There are leaders and followers, so if you are a follower, stick to the uncertainty of having a job\" >.> Next thing you know he'll be telling us how great soylent green is

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ringo00
May 12, 2009 9:03 PM
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My wife is an Avon lady, but she has no delusions of grandeur about it. She makes something like $100 a month on it. It works out that her customers pretty much pay for her own products. Avon does have some quality products at pretty reasonable prices, though. She really likes the jewelry selection.

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trujunglist
May 12, 2009 9:06 PM
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I've been reading a lot of old comics lately and I find myself focusing intently on the MLMs in there... buy greeting cards, seeds, etc.
I think they're hilarious! The seeds thing - that sounds useful, I'd probably buy stuff and be able to sell quite a lot, especially in this economy. But greeting cards? How many of those can you sell? Same with wrapping paper.. maybe 1 tube! But look at all the fabulous (-ly worthless) prizes!

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subtlefrog
May 12, 2009 9:14 PM
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Maybe slightly OT, but what about the ones that don't actually sell, the \"Heal thine soul\" ones that rope you in and tell you how flawed you are, but you can be better if you just spend $199.99 on this seminar, oh, and bring a friend or two, too. Who also have to spend $199.99.

I had a friend who got wrapped up in one of these, and he started asking people in our department to lunch, people who didn't know him, and \"interviewing\" them about his best and worst qualities.

People started to avoid him. But nothing like when he starting trying to shove the cult-ahem - I mean group's literature down our throats.

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Dilbitz
May 12, 2009 10:54 PM
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I was suckered in to be a Mary Kay consultant once. It lasted two days. After buying the starter kit and telling the lady that I WAS NOT going to charge $3,000 of product onto my credit card, they told me that they wanted me to travel every weekend to some woman's house 30 miles away and pay a $20 fee to attend some get together to learn the tricks of the trade. And I was to wear makeup and a skirt every day to look the part. I completely lost it.


I am a Tshirt and jeans kind of girl and makeup is pretty much for funerals and weddings for me. I got stuck with the $100 starter kit, and I ended up selling the full size packages and almost broke even. Never will I set foot at a \"Facial\" Party again.

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Anonymous
May 13, 2009 3:47 AM
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When I was in college, this MLM group(which incidentally consisted of mostly members of 2 Asian frats and sorority) used a club message list to tell people about their business about setting up a website store or some other bs.

Me being me, I googled the business and found a bunch of negative posts about it. I then proceeded to post this info back onto the message list. These folks then found my info from the campus directory and threatened me. But in hindsight, it was all worth it if a few people didn't dump their money in the scam. I also remembered that the company went out of business too, no surprise there.

This has also made me leery of all MLMs, I got nervous when a close family friend tried to recruit us to Market America. They say they make money and all but I hate selling stuff and the whole thing reeks of a cult.

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Feminist Whore
May 13, 2009 4:00 AM
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@Dilbitz: !!! The \"facial parties\" I go to don't sound at all like the kind you go to! I think I've been had...

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nicolebuckingham
May 13, 2009 2:53 PM
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I've been approached by the best of them: Amway, Primerica, Melaluca, Arbonne, and AG. I've never fallen for any of them. I think I shattered the lives of the Quixtar couple who were trying to sign me up when I naively (I was only 22 at the time) deduced out loud that Quixtar makes so much money because they (the couple) buy Quixtar's products for everything. They looked pretty sad about it, and I was genuinely shocked to realize they had never put 2 and 2 together.

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gerrycomo
May 13, 2009 6:30 PM
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Ex-MLM distributor of many companies here. Haven't hopped on one since 2003.

I made very little money since I joined the Big A 13 years ago. I still love the concept though.

The products are still VERY expensive no matter the company. For example, at one point, I just wanted to buy multi-vitamins, just one bottle. I'd have to pay 50$ per month!

Okay, mlm vitamins were formulated to be better than bought at the drugstore and it's just that 50$ including exchange plus shipping EVEN on preferred customer promotion is A LOT. Better go on online auctions for cheaper mlm supplements!

I won't go for MLM juices though (shuddders)...

Anyway, the reasons the family and friends pitching their MLMs fail is:

1- They don't target other MLM distributors who actually understand the concept. Pitching to friends and family is the fastest way to be mentioned on a Consumerist MLM thread!:)

2- They don't sell their program on the BACK-END, where all the profits are. Instant failure the moment you pitch it on the front-end, guaranteed 100%.

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humphrmi
May 16, 2009 5:36 AM
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@gerrycomo: If you mention the term \"back end\" at a Big A Triple Trapezoid with Goldschlager Leaf meeting, they will look at you like you're speaking Swahili. I remember very well how this conversation went:

Them: You're not building your business.

Me: I'm trying. Tell me what to do. I want to succeed.

Them: Did you talk to your friends and family? Did you show them the benefits of Soilent Green?

Me: I did. They told me to fuck off.

Them: Oh my! Well obviously your friends and family don't support the business you're trying to build. You should find new ones.

In the end, I sold a few products that people really liked to a few friends who really wanted it a couple times a year, and my Upline / Downwind Double Dodecagon lost his precious place in line, and then The Big A dropped my membership for lack of an upline.

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golddog
May 14, 2009 3:14 AM
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\"Don't worry about Phil. Phil drives a corvette. He's doing just fine. Now. Calling cards are the wave of the future. They sell themselves\" - Michael Scott

I have a strict zero tolerance policy on MLM friends and family. They always get offended when I tell them they just joined a cult. Once the deprogramming takes, they always come back with their tail between their legs and tell me how right I was.

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CFinWV
May 14, 2009 2:01 PM
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@SteelersAreGo: I have the steak knives, they're awesome! But no, the veggie chopper knives aren't very good from what I hear. Guess it all depends what kind of knife you're looking for. The steak knives I have now are probably going on 30 years old and they still cut steak like butter. Now... if I try to cut a tomato, forget about it.

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BobbyMike
May 14, 2009 2:02 PM
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I find the inclusion of Arbonne on the list of pyramid schemes interesting. I guess the person you interface with is the one you judge the company by.

Pyramid schemes (like Amway/Quixtar) seem to put an emphasis on selling the business side of the equation (books/tapes/functions). Your upline makes money on that side (usually MUCH more than they do on the selling side). You can thank Dexter Yager for that. He's the creepy little crypto-fascist (masquerading as a Christian) that runs the biggest racket in that franchise. (I'm not saying that because I read about it on the internetz, when my wife and I were naive young glassblowers we were sucked into that hellhole by \"friends\".)

Arbonne provides free training and the emphasis is on the selling of product. They (Arbonne) forbid their consultants from selling business aids.

Disclaimer: my wife sells the product (3+ years) and makes enough each month to pay for our mortgage plus a little extra ($1000+). She doesn't latch onto people and suck them dry. She simply asks them if they want to try some free samples of her products. If they like them she tells them how much they cost and the relationship moves on from there.

Her business cards don't misrepresent who she is (they clearly say Arbonne on them). She has quite a few clients who were hounded by others to join the business, but just liked the skin care. They buy from her because she will just sell it to them without all the other hoopla.

She primarily sells the products because she likes them and didn't want to pay full price for them. Making our mortgage each month is a sweet extra for us.

Another thing to consider. Many women like to host parties (Partylite, Avon, Pampered Chef and yes, Arbonne) because they like the social aspect of it. Earning free products work into that too. They go into it knowing what to expect. They have a nice time out with some of their friends, try some products, look at some catalogs and perhaps make an order. No one gets a \"gotcha\" moment, unlike the \"Hey good buddy, I'd like to get together with you and the missus to discuss a business venture with you. How's Tuesday night at 8:00 sound?\" scam.

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