Stupid.

Some products that exist which are regularly used in the commission of crimes against ridiculously easy to break laws:

- Bicycles (Have you EVER seen someone ride one that spends more time following the rules of the road vs. violating them?)
- Sneakers (You haven't jaywalked today? Really? You need to get out more!)
- Cars (You've never done something illegal with one today? You remembered to use your turn signal 300 yards before every single turn and to leave 3 seconds of space between your car and the next at all times today?)

That's just a short list. And we're talking about the primary functions of these products, not some sort of weird side effect. Ban them all!

@PSN: kingpsyz: /bow

Unlike most movie or music companies, most reputable software companies that use licenses WILL replace your damaged physical media if you mail it to them, etc. So at least in that case the licensing thing goes both ways...they're still "supporting" their product years after you bought it.

As noted in earlier posts, anyone with basic knowledge of a PC (Windows or Linux) can find dozens of free software programs to rip, copy and/or convert any "protected" content into a common file format (such as MPEG) that can be recorded to or played from a Hard Disk.

While this device will make it easier on those who still seek guidance from "The Video Professor", any attempt to ban it will only help increase the sale of "Home Theatre" PCs and the amount of free money, pizza and beer geeks like myself receive for visiting friends' houses to pimp out their new PC with extra software.

I rarely reply, but your question hit the nail on the head. The economic crisis, the FDA not being able to protect consumers, patients unable to afford the supposed world's best medical care, law enforcement working for drug companies & protecting their turf, the U.S. Political & Judicial systems becoming corrupt beyond repair. It happened when the Texas conservative think tanks where able to put together a plan that has spanned at least a decade, with a history that goes all the way back to the first 'Right to Work' (Right to Corruption) State's induction. PAC money was a brilliant idea that has put corporate money at the forefront of all our current problems today. If you don't like progress and you want to keep a Nation of indentured servants. You do this by underfunding the United Nations and render it useless. You tear down Government oversight by underfunding it to the point of uselessness. then you point your finger at it and claim how ineffective Government is. You use fear of invasion, or attack to open the Social Security funds, spending them as fast as you can, speeding the agency's demise. The upside is you use the money to open up oil markets in middle eastern countries. You underfund Public Education in an effort to kill it and send it to the private sector. (No money in Education by the way, this will *never* work.) You use the 'baby boomers' #1 fear of paying higher taxes and you use that to your advantage. Basically this is something that could take hours to explain, but your question is the most relevant of all. Corporations are actively tearing down the American infrastructure to remove as many Tax burdens from the corporate sector as possible. Judges are beholding to corporate funding. The ideas from Texas keep on flowing and now the 10th Amendment movement. We already went through one war funded by Slavery. Now they want another revolutionary war and your very souls are at risk. America is being torn apart by greed. Problem is, nobody believes it and it may already be too late.

@Mari Walker:

Since you couldn't be arsed to read down a bit further I present this shit that happened earlier today:
@TCama:
Oh you mean the warning that plays on my television AFTER I HAVE ALREADY MADE MY PURCHASE, OPENED THE PRODUCT, AND PLACED IT IN A REPLAY DEVICE ALL BEFORE THIS WAS 'DISCLOSED'?
@TCama:
Again why is it the law? Because the MPAA and RIAA conned the FBI who should be working on mafia shit, terrorist threats, and aliens into enforcing a failure of a business model?

Because law abiding consumers are punished because they can't figure out how to stop their work from being pirated?

Haven't you ever noticed that big, sometimes red, warning that plays before the movie starts? The one from the FBI, saying that most of the stuff you want to do is, in fact, illegal?

This is why they outlawed computers in the sixties.

Hey, what's this, some sort of alternative nonsensical universe where anybody can buy the tools required to pirate movies and music! Whee!

Consider this - you pay for the DVD, but whenever you want to watch the movie, you have to sit through bullshit like the FBI warning and anything else they want to mark as unskippable. They're literally stealing time from you each time you want to enjoy your purchase. If you ever move, you need to take your whole DVD collection with you. And now, if you want your movies to look better you have to buy them AGAIN on blu-ray because you need to pay for the disc, which they tell you means nothing since you're "Really" paying for the license.

The industry currently has their cake and eats it too while we just look at the crumbs.

@johnfrombrooklyn: Can't make money? Are you serious? How about the OVERLY rediculous price you are charged at a theater to see a "quality" film? Don't tell me thats to cover wages and for maintenance. THOSE BASTARDS HAVE THE SAME MOLD GROWING ON THE CEILING OF THAT THEATER THAT WAS THERE IN 1995!! The people behind the counter make minimum wage. OH, BOOHOO, the poor studios. If they wouldn't make such a big deal of this, less and less people would know you could do it. How many people knew about Napster BEFORE they were sued? How many knew immeadiately after?

What you said is actually the logical conclusion of the MPAA's claims, not PSN's. Since they claim that when you buy a DVD you own a license to watch that movie, they should cheerfully replace any broken DVDs in order for you to continue to exercise your licensed right to watch the movie. They should also give you a copy of the movie in any future format of your choice for just the cost of the media, since you already bought the license to watch it when you bought the DVD.

This is actually how software licensing works--Through their business sales, you can buy from Microsoft a Media Kit (the CDs/DVDs and a "CD-Key" code) of Office (etc) for about $10-15 and a license to run said program for like $500. This allows you to buy only the media you need. A media kit has no license and no CD-Key, and it gives you no rights. A license gives you the right to run the program regardless of whether you own the media kit (CDs).

No. I assume they'll sell these for at least $200. The Xbox 360 is only $150. Netflix is only $15 or whatever. The software is free or donationware.
Plus, the Xbox, unlike the standalone device, can do a lot more, unless the standalone has Netflix streaming, 360 games, etc....
The only chance that this is somehow a better value is if they charge less than $100 or so, which is about as likely as Paris Hilton becoming a nun.

That's not what he's arguing at all. He's arguing that things you purchase should actually be yours. In the case of the theatre, you pay to see the movie on a large screen with good sound in a stinky room full of annoying people. You're not paying to always be able to watch it, you're paying for the 1-time experience. Kind of like hookers vs. girlfriends.
In the case of buying a DVD, you're obviously buying it to watch it more than once.

Ripping is copying audio/video to hard disk. Inline decryption would be an optional process which ought to be transparent to the user, hence the confusion.

But, if we're talking about whether something is legal or not, we need to be specific. Decryption is legal or illegal depending on who is doing it and how.

@johnfrombrooklyn:
Reading Comprehension... CATCH THE FEVER!

Where do I state such an outrageous thing?

If I buy something, I should own my copy of that item wholly. Should I be able to open a movie theatre and starts screening it for $1 a head? No.

But I should not be treated like a criminal for wanting to use what I bought.

I thought we settled this when people were taping TV shows.

Our government has gotten even more corrupt since then, so they're hoping they will have more success this time.

Ripping data is copying data, not decrypting data.

I want to be able to "tape" movies without paying for a subscription service (TiVo, etc). Like when I had my VCR. What is wrong with these people?

I thought we settled this when people were taping TV shows.

Here's my argument: the CSS isn't actually a copy protection mechanism; it's a playback control mechanism. I can copy it infinitely without breaking the CSS, so the CSS does nothing to prevent copying. Therefore, it doesn't fall under the DMCA. At least, that's the argument I'd make in court. I don't believe the mere assertion that it is a copy protection mechanism should be enough to count as making it illegal; otherwise, the industry could criminalize anything they wanted.

Sure it took a little while to copy them all over but I no longer need to hunt for disks. My PC also does a better job of upsampling the movie to 1080p then any normal upsampling dvd player does because I can apply filters to make it look as good as possible. It cost me like $600 to build, most of the price was from the Hard Drives but since I bought them a couple years ago I could probably make the same PC for half that price since storage prices are alot lower.

If that isnt your cup of tea the Xbox 360 works as an excellent media center as well.

@johnva: It's illegal to rip a CSS encrypted DVD to your computer. I'm not arguing with you because I think it should be illegal, but because it is illegal under the DMCA. You aren't allowed to circumvent copy protection measures. I think it's bullshit and should be repealed, but it's the law.

Making a bit by bit copy of a DVD for personal backup wouldn't be illegal, but decrypting it is. I agree with you 100% that the argument about preventing piracy is dishonest, though.

@johnva: The most annoying part of the situation for me is that you are violating the DMCA by ripping a DVD because you are circumventing the CSS encryption on the disc, so it is illegal. It's perfectly legal to make a backup copy of a CD, cassette tape, vinly record, or VHS tape because that's allowed for under fair use and you don't have to bypass encryption to do it. So, if a DVD isn't protected by CSS or any other encryption, it is legal to make a fair use backup for your own personal use. But, you can't bypass the encryption or you're suddenly a criminal.

The DMCA needs to be reformed or (I'd prefer) repealed because it doesn't stop piracy. It just inconveniences end users.

I can think of dozens of laws that I don't think should be on the books and I bet so can anybody else. But a law is a law...

@johnva:
and also cost prohibitive

@TCama:
Oh you mean the warning that plays on my television AFTER I HAVE ALREADY MADE MY PURCHASE, OPENED THE PRODUCT, AND PLACED IT IN A REPLAY DEVICE ALL BEFORE THIS WAS 'DISCLOSED'?
@TCama:
Again why is it the law? Because the MPAA and RIAA conned the FBI who should be working on mafia shit, terrorist threats, and aliens into enforcing a failure of a business model?

Because law abiding consumers are punished because they can't figure out how to stop their work from being pirated?

That is illegal, though.

A few general responses:

1) Its not "piracy" to make a convenience copy for your own personal use-- no different than taping TV shows and storing them on my DVR- NOTE that some in the industry don't like DVRs either.

2) Its not an accepted facet of law that you "pre-emptively" prevent people from committing crimes. Otherwise, there would be no guns. You make movies conveniently easy to use/copy, that does NOT automatically mean you will make copies for all your friends.

3) I'm fairly tech savvy, but I hate ripping DVDs to my computer-- since my computer is NOT hooked to my main, big TV, it really does me no good. Most people would LOVE a small device that simply let's them rip movies to a hard drive for viewing- heck, I'd combine it with a DVR.

4) Like always, they're idiots-- when you force me to rip to my computer, I am MORE likely to burn DVDs, give 'em to my buddies. If I ripped to a DVR that was "locked" (i.e. no USB/firewire port- could only copy to another HD in real time), I would probably not bother ripping to my computer and copying for anyone. So, forcing me to use my computer makes me MORE likely to commit the supposed "crime", not less.

5) Something like this would be pretty easy to build- so they could sell the software (or make it available opensource) and people could LEGALLY build these machines anyway. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

6) You know what movies and TV shows I buy? QUALITY that I want to own and watch over and over. You know what I "pirate"? Crap. If I didn't pirate the crap, I'd not buy it and find better things to do with my time. So... I have a distinct feeling that if the QUALITY of the product went up... your profits would go up. Look into it.

The problem is we send nothing besides lawyers to Congress who know next to nothing about technology. (Judges too) They get "informed" from lobbyists from interests like the MPAA, who end up writing good portions of the legislation.

@MustyBuckets: Well said.

@mbnovik: I don't know if I'm lazy or stupid, but I tried to rip a DVD to my computer a few months ago and just gave up. I got to a certain point in the process and the thing just would not rip.

In the meantime, I will happily continue ripping my DVDs to my external hard drive. I feel totally morally justified in doing so, and there is little way I could be caught doing it.

@MustyBuckets: I think that might be the quote of the century.

@DoubleEcho:
touche

@Sean Masters:
Again WHERE DOES IT STATE THIS ON THE PACKAGING IN PLAIN SIGHT?

What retailers inform the customer at time of purchase?

When a kid gets busted for shoplifting do they call the cops and say he was trying to illegally borrow the content on the discs?

Wasn't this settled before with Kaleidescape?

Kaleidescape was a DVD jukebox that ripped DVDs to an internal drive and served them up on a home network. It circumvented the DMCA by copying the files and leavign the DRM intact. It then used a fully licensed decrypter (CSS from the DVDCCA!) to playback the materials much like a normal DVD player.

They were sued by the DVDCCA and won mainly because someone at DVDCCA wasn't paying attention when they were selling licenses.

Fun read:
[www.eetimes.com]

The RIAA and MPAA both need to die fiery, painful deaths. Cut out the middlemen and let the actors and writers unions own the material they're producing.

@Bluth_Cornballer: HIGH FIVE!!

Amazing is most certainly context sensitive.

Besides, even if it's not amazing, that doesn't mean that they should block the sale of it just because someone might do something illegal with it, as long as it has a valid, legal purpose (it does). Restrict the sale? Maybe. But block?

And you don't need to break the "copy protection" in order to copy DVDs, technically. So this isn't even an anti-copying measure. It's just an attempt to control how digital video is used so that they can extract additional revenue themselves from all possible distribution channels. They probably don't want people to be able to do this because they want to re-sell you your whole DVD collection as a digital download in a few years.

But it seems like this product would too, if it can't actually write copies.

I'd be excited about this device, if I didn't have the sinking suspicion it would display "Buffering" every 10 seconds on the screen while playing the damn DVD.

Or unless the HD has just a huge capacity.

As such, this is not anything new really. It is just a lousy version of what already exists. The Big Deal is that this is from a well known company, rather than some shady online website.

Of course you're assuming that the DMCA should have been enacted in the first place. The law was passed to stop digital piracy, which it clearly does not do. It's real purpose is to eliminate otherwise perfectly legal new business models. Such as the case at issue here.

Take the Panasonic DMR-E50, for instance.

Heck, they talk about them in the Genshiken supplemental book and that was published in like 2005 or something.

@PSN: kingpsyz: I would say it happened about the time of the creation of the federal reserve. But really it was just handed off from landowners to businesses.

Morons.

What the hell is wrong with us as a nation? When did we let corporate intrests take over?

When did the hand off occur?

How did our ancestors survive without HOAs?
Did Davinci just sell people a license to his inventions and works?
Who would sue someone playing a phonograph publicly before the RIAA was invented?
How did the movie industry survive with any Tom, Dick, or Harry could see a movie projected on a large outdoor screen from the street?

This shouldn't even be an issue, if you buy a DVD it's yours. There's no EULA on the DVD box, and even if there was THERE SHOULDN'T BE. You buy something you should be able to do whatever you want with it.

If I want to make a mobile for my baby out of a Simpson's box set, or save a season's worth of a show to a hard drive, or if I want to project The Venture Bros. on the side of my house I should be able to.

The whole argument from the MPAA about stopping piracy is horseshit. Pirates will still make ripped DVDs and sell them at mom & pop liquor stores despite you denying me an awesome piece of hardware that could save me a alot of hassle.

The only one loosing here is the very customers they should be coddling because they're being forced into the pirates loving arms with their bully tactics against fair use.

Also, the argument that it could "enable" copying is kind of garbage since the encryption on DVDs doesn't actually prevent you from making a bit-for-bit copy of the encrypted media. So copying is already inherently enabled by default, without any special software to decrypt DVDs. Instead, the encryption is there to allow the DVD consortium to control which PLAYERS can play DVDs, in order to protect their licensing revenues. The whole argument that DVD encryption is about preventing piracy is fundamentally dishonest.