" Um, Pontiac G8 is pretty much a 5-series competitor and it looks great."
"GM is going to be discontinuing its best cars (including the Solstice and the G8)"
I really liked the Pontiac badge. It's dead. All my previous cars have been Pontiac's I learned a lot about auto repair from them.
" It's a shame that car companies have to be judged by non-enthusiast morons, "
They're called customers. You must be a GM marketer or executive.
"Corvette outperforms a 911 that starts at $27k more."
I drive on the street and my nerves only go up to 120mph. After looking at the 09 vette they did a great job. I was only looking at cars I could get for 30k or less though. It'll be a few years before that filters down to reality.
Top Gear at no point analyzed the resources used to build a Prius and their toll on the environment
). They did not present numbers showing how many KW-H were required to manufacture the car, mine the nickel for the batteries, transport it, etc... - they referenced a STUDY done by a MARKETING firm, and then pointed to a map and said "boy, I bet it costs a lot of energy to do all this" without actually providing any evidence whatsoever. When I was talking about costs, I was referencing the same study as Top Gear. As I said before, IN THIS STUDY, THEY REPRESENT ENERGY COST WITH DOLLARS, NOT UNITS OF ENERGY. The sale price and resale values are used to calculate ENERGY COST.My point was that this study is COMPLETELY INVALID, was not generated by engineers or anyone who is even remotely familiar with math and science, and has subsequently been used by every anti-Prius douchebag out there to claim that the Prius is an environmental disaster when it is not. THERE IS NO MERIT TO THIS STUDY!!!
And if you want to read the study yourself, just to see how much bullshit it contains:
@Techguy1138: Um, Pontiac G8 is pretty much a 5-series competitor and it looks great. The Caddy STS and CTS are also both nice looking. It's kind of ridiculous to base a claim that all GM vehicles look bad simply by looking at the mid-size, boxy luxury car bracket... The Solstice is still being made as far as I'm aware, and yes, GM is going to be discontinuing its best cars (including the Solstice and the G8) due to the restructuring because they're the most niche (Toyota sells a lot more ugly-ass Camrys than BMW does 5 series) vehicles, and they don't make enough money on them. It's a shame that car companies have to be judged by non-enthusiast morons, or else GM would be doing a lot better right now... Also, the base Boxster costs $3k less than a Corvette, while the Corvette outperforms a 911 that starts at $27k more.
]]>The corvette is nice. It outperforms anything in it's price range. It's too small for me ( 6'2") and I still think the Porsche looks nicer in the same(lower) price range.
You may not like the BWM styling but you didn't come up with any US badged cars that compete in the mid boxy size bracket. There may be great ones I just haven't seen 'em.
]]>How long are we going to keep this zombie car company alive?
]]>The Altima coupe does look pretty sweet though.
]]>Your right. GM and US cars in general are not comparable to Japanese or German cars but not in any way here that people hit on.
US cars are UGLY!
Let's just say I'm going though my midlife crisis and I have 30k to spend on any car I want, new or used.
GM seriously? the new malibu or caprice classic?
Compare their line up to basically any BMW. Cadillac should stack up pretty equal to bmw 5&7 series and falls short in terms of looks.
The Japanese cars have a small sporty style. The US has what? I can't even think a a comparable model.
Sports cars/muscle cars. The corvette out performs most anything. When it comes to looks If I have my 30k and I can get a used Targa or a used Corvette it's not even a contest.
Muscle cars, the charger(and I'm not a mopar man) is a US win here. The new Camero at least doesn't suck. The new Mustang ugh, just look at an BMW M3.
I want to like my car and the way I look in it. The us can't do that
]]>I even have a friend who works for GM and even he has stopped caring and is busy polishing up that resume. GM's spirit, from top to bottom, is broken. I don't think it can, or even should, be saved at this point.
]]>@Saboth: This is fantastic justification... Just because GM doesn't produce a better car in EVERY single market segment, all GM product is shit. Most people who dislike GM product haven't even been in one of their cars in the last 10 years. I personally would pick a Cobalt over a Civic / Fit, mostly because I've gotten quotes on them for 11k whereas you can't walk out of a dealership with a Fit / Civic for less than about 16k, and the Cobalt XFE has higher rated fuel economy (unfortunately, since I don't own one, I can't attest to it's real world fuel economy). Plus, most Hondas I've ever seen use a timing belt, which is a really nasty expense to have to replace every 60-100 thousand miles (not sure what the interval is on those specific cars). The Cobalt uses a timing chain - maintenance free, and should last at least 300k miles.
]]>One of the fun things they do is say the total cost of the vehicle is the initial sale price PLUS the value of the vehicle each time it is resold, assuming it is resold something like 5 times throughout it's lifetime - so therefore, better resale value means that the vehicle's production had more negative environmental impact!?!?!?! Anyway, this is just an example, there are plenty of sites debunking the study, and it's pretty shameless that Mr. Clarkson brought up such a baseless attempt to discredit the Prius, on the air.
Also, I would like to point out that the acid rain causing nickel mining facilities were cleaned up in the 70s and have a much smaller environmental impact today.
Finally, Top Gear did do a comparison between the Prius being driven at full throttle around a race course, and an M3 following it, and found the M3 got about 10-15% better fuel economy at that pace. He then used this to justify that it's not the car, it's how you drive it, which is again, only a half truth. Driven sedately, the Prius will achieve much higher fuel economy (duh) than the M3, they were just operating it much farther from optimal conditions. While Top Gear is a very entertaining show, please don't base your opinions on it - it's entertainment only, it is not factual and Jeremy Clarkson really is an ass who's willing to manipulate any facts to try to support his viewpoint.
]]>No, the problem isn't perception. GM still sells tons of cars. More than anyone in the US, even now. The problem is that they lose money on almost all of them. For some reason people can't seem to wrap their head around this. Changing "perception" and making more fuel efficient cars won't change the fact that they lose money on virtually every car they make.
Until this changes, GM is toast. And I've not seen a solution, either from GM or Barry O, that addresses or changes this.
]]>I don't have any numbers but I like Microsoft's counter-campaign. It's like in a political campaign where people get sick of the negative campaign. The MS ads don't directly attack Macs and unless you've seen the Mac Vs PC campaign you wouldn't know that they're digging at them.
]]>The problem with that is that these wundercars are only available in non-US markets. If they started selling some of their smaller European models here they'd be in better shape. Rather than giving the car companies $ to stay afloat, the government could change crash requirements to match those of Europe, and these cars could be available within a matter of weeks. They're already being made; no R&D sink or additional overhead.
]]>Try overstock. I wouldn't walk into a dealership without checking it first.
]]>You need a carabiner for your your keys.
I don't think there's a big enough keyring to put $6 Billion on though...
]]>Did anyone else notice...
"GM would also give the Treasury Department a majority stake in the company in return for taxpayers forgiving federal assistance so far."
So much for bailout "loans". That's about a $50 giveaway for every man, woman and child in the US. That is, of course, unless GM's stock rebounds and the US treasury makes a nice gain... ...yeah, that's going to happen.
]]>Honda nickel and dimes you every step of the way, they can make a 16 grand FIT equal 20 grand.
]]>The FIT? Trust me as the owner of one, its not all the write home about. It does lug shit though and gets great milage doing it, but even in its sport version which my wife owns, its not a "fun" car, more like appliance.
]]>@Guvmint_Cheese: Even sadder is that the guvmint will probably give them even more money.
You can buy an auto camry (EX?) or accord LX ith a fairly decent package (air, CD, etc) and it will cost you between 18-19K. That Malibu? Gonna cost you 25K plus (which is about how much a basic, but decently outfitted avalon costs).
The Pontiac Vibe is the exact same car as the Toyota Matrix. Why the hell is it 3 thousand bucks more expensive? It isn't labor costs. It's the fucking licensing fees the domestics are paying because they designed shitty cars and didn't keep up with the imports R&D/development (Toyota actually makes a ton of money licensing its hybrid technology for instance). Sigh.
]]>I'll give them 1-2 cars like the Malibu, etc...but honestly...HONESTLY do you think they have anything at all comparable to things like the Civic and Fit? Caval...I mean Cobalt? Lol....
]]>I want, I want, I want!
]]>The biggest difference is that the Mac guy makes fun of MS and Howie Long makes fun of potential customers. Hell, Apple's PC character comes across better than Howie.
]]>Thanks for delaying your inevitable bankruptcy till the last possible moment so I could repay my favors to the unions and leave taxpayers holding the bag. You're the best!"-BO
]]>It seems to work for Apple.
]]>Oh wait.......
]]>The problem is perception and fact are two different thing. Its a fact that their stuff has gotten a lot better, its the perception that it hasn't.
The biggest issue is GM has done a miserable job of proving to people its stuff is better, especially when you have people out there who are making it their special interest to convince people otherwise for financial and political gain.
]]>The worst part about this is by now, it feels like GM "loses" $6 billion like I "lose" my keys.
]]>Considering it's early May, it looks to me like GM passed with flying colors.
]]>