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April 17, 2009 9:44 PM

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My grandfather used to spray pesticide all over his garden for over half a century, and he never had any non-smoking related health complications. Of course, he also used to make me pour used motor oil on ant hills as a child, so he wasn't the best environmentalist around. However, I digress. The point is, pesticides aren't the end of the world, and buying things \"organic\" doesn't necessarily mean a better product (although I gave no evidence to support that second part).

6 replies

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April 18, 2009 4:21 PM

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@start-as-you-mean-to-go-on: An example of the head wound thing for ya. Tired of seeing people attack you for it.
[www.msnbc.msn.com]

To the pesticide part... There are many \"natural\" ways to keep your garden safe that are considered pesticides. I am a friend of the earth but lumping all garden products, like what most environmentalist do, together as pesticides is flat out misinformation. My grandmother sprays lemon and banana oil on her garden and flowers... works better than the harsh chemical based pesticides.

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CFinWV

April 18, 2009 1:06 PM

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@start-as-you-mean-to-go-on: Because your grandfather said so... well, ok then!

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mmmsoap

April 18, 2009 4:42 AM

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@start-as-you-mean-to-go-on: The \"safety\" issue with pesticides is not as much about it being used on your garden. You are, after all, usually intending to eat that food, and manufacturers know this. Clearly you can't be spraying around poison-in-a-bottle, but for the most part if you don't drink it straight from the source, you're pretty okay.

However, the huge environmental impact comes from the actual production of these pesticides. Most are petroleum based, and the production of the pesticides uses far more energy than the corresponding increase in crop production grants, so it's an energy sink. Combine that with the fact that it doesn't make a ton of sense to spend so much fossil fuels on something that grows from free solar energy, and the fact that general industrial waste from pesticide production is pretty intense (and sadly, not dealt with by the pesticide industry as a whole) and it comes out as a negative-sum game in the end.

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Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!)

April 18, 2009 2:32 PM

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@mmmsoap: There will also be crop loss to pests no matter WHAT you do. Worldwide the average is around 50% ... first-world pesticided crops had traditionally been around 30%, but that number is creeping up to 40% (IIRC) because bugs adapt and you can only use so much poison and keep food edible ... and with modern organic methods you can achieve about 40% crop loss as well. So there's not as much of a benefit as people often thing.

We have a 300 square foot veggie garden (and a large \"other stuff\" garden). I'm not totally anti-pesticide (I went through the state Master Gardener program and we learned the science of pesticides, not the FUD of pesticides), but they're an expensive input, storing them makes me damn-ass nervous, especially with a baby on the way and with pets in the home (I can guarantee *I* won't ingest it but not my four-legged critters), and we haven't found them necessary.

The best bug prevention is other bugs, and one problem with pesticides is they kill indiscriminately -- they kill bees and praying mantises as well as \"bad\" bugs. A healthy, non-pesticided garden will draw spiders and cannibalistic mites and praying mantises and things that eat the \"bad\" bugs for you. Otherwise, we rotate the nightshades, don't let people smoke near the garden (tobacco mosaic), companion plant, and use chicken wire to keep out the mammalian pests.

In addition to what soap said about environmental impacts, some states are starting to ask home gardeners not to pesticide or to follow very strict timing rules, because home pesticide use is contributing to the bee population crash.

Anyhoo, last time we had a bug infestation it was aphids, so we just mail-ordered ladybugs. Problem solved! Cheaper than the pesticide we would have needed, no storage or ingestion issues, and ooooooh! pretty ladybugs!

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cuchanu

April 17, 2009 9:57 PM

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@start-as-you-mean-to-go-on:

Organic doesn't mean the food tastes better and I don't think people claim that. But to imply that pesticides are safe because your grandpa didn't die by them isn't really saying much. There are people that tried to commit suicide by shooting themselves in the head and they came out of it with a scratch. That doesn't mean bullets can't kill you.

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qxrt

April 17, 2009 11:08 PM

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@cuchanu: You must know some magical people, because I don't know anyone who can shoot themselves in the head and come out of it without a scratch.

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Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!)

April 18, 2009 2:24 PM

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@qxrt: My aunt (who's a vet) has a dog that a dude tried to shoot in the head, point-blank, with a shotgun. He DID shoot the dog in the head but failed to kill it ... the dog just ended up with a lobotomy and some brain damage. Which worked out for the dog, because he'd been abused, but no longer has any memory of that. (Anyway, the dog was rushed to the vet ER where my aunt was working and she adopted him because she adopts a lot of the hard cases; they don't have kids so don't have to worry about those borderline-adoptable animals that might hurt a child but aren't really problematic enough to be put down.)

Sweetest dog in the world now, but no short term memory. Can't even remember to finish eating, and every time you re-show him the food, he gets REALLY EXCITED that someone totally left food there! They call him Special Ed.

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Tim Pedersen

April 20, 2009 7:47 PM

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@Eyebrows McGee (on Twitter: LPetelle): hahahah awwwww snif.

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April 18, 2009 4:07 PM

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@Eyebrows McGee (on Twitter: LPetelle): That actually sounds like a really fun dog to have as a pet.

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April 18, 2009 3:48 AM

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@qxrt: The specification was people who tried. That's not to say they successfully shot themselves in the head -- maybe the bullet was a dud, or didn't chamber, or they were playing Russian Roulette, or...

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qxrt

April 19, 2009 7:55 AM

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@Charles Duffy: Yes, but if you're going to include people who tried to shoot themselves but didn't, then the analogy wouldn't work, because that would be comparable to someone who tried to eat pesticides but didn't. The poster's grandfather DID eat pesticides, but he didn't suffer ill effects.

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arl84

April 18, 2009 1:17 AM

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@qxrt: It's an extreme example but it really is possible to shoot yourself in the head and live

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April 17, 2009 11:45 PM

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@qxrt: I just assumed he worked at the Daily planet.

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April 17, 2009 9:44 PM

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A mixture of 2 tablespoons dish soap and a gallon of water poured into a spray bottle will kill off most soft bodied insects in your garden.
You can also just spray them off with a blast from your water hose.
In big production farming, pesticides do have their place, but you don't have to use them in your back yard garden.
I have never and never will.

5 replies

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Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!)

April 18, 2009 2:34 PM

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@HappyCthulhu: \"You can also just spray them off with a blast from your water hose.\"

This was like the funnest thing EVER when we had an aphid infestation.

@mac-phisto: All gardeners find immense satisfaction in that. :D

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April 18, 2009 11:03 AM

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@HappyCthulhu: another organic solution i've come across is diatomaceous earth (DE), which you can pick up at most garden stores (like agway). here's a howto: [www.ehow.com]

it's basically a powder made of diatoms & is very effective against insects. i've never used it in a garden (b/c i've never had one), but will be trying this year. make sure you buy the plant-grade stuff, not pool-grade.

my favorite part is how it works. i guess these are akin to microscopic razors that cut the exoskeletons of insects & basically cause them to bleed out. is it wrong that i find immense satisfaction in that?

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wardawg

April 17, 2009 10:27 PM

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@HappyCthulhu: The soap in water trick (also sold commercially as insecticidal soap) doesn't kill all or exclusively soft bodied insects. It kills \"most\" insects which eat your plant (either hard of soft bodied) as they ingest the soap while eating the plant. Most insects don't have the capabilities to vomit and thus get sick and fall off the plant where they generally die of starvation or natural predators.

The caveat is that they still have to take bites of your plants before it works.

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April 18, 2009 1:17 AM

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@wardawg: No, they don't have to bite the plant for it to work.
It suffocates them.

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chiieddy

April 17, 2009 11:35 PM

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@wardawg: You can also plant a border of alternating marigolds and banana-peppers to keep pests out of your garden.

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wardawg

April 17, 2009 11:50 PM

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@chiieddy: Banana peppers don't grow so well up north! ;)

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chiieddy

April 18, 2009 12:14 AM

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@wardawg: I've seen them in MAINE! I didn't know about the peppers trick before that actually. The main Stonewall Kitchen outlet uses them for borders.

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wardawg

April 18, 2009 1:21 AM

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@chiieddy: Average temp during growing season in Maine: 18C/64F, average temp during growing season in northern Saskatchewan (that's in Canada): 10C/50F and regularly drops below freezing.

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April 17, 2009 9:47 PM

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my mom has grown a garden every year since I was 6. She has never EVER used any sort of chemicals or pesticides yet every year she grows huge tomatoes and other tasty veggies. her secret? she pulls weeds the second she sees them and waters them every day (sometimes she misses a day, but not often) she uses other tricks too (like making a newspaper grid around her onions to make it hard for weeds to grow and keeps the onions in place) and her gardens always seem fine. pesticides in home gardens are just another sign of how lazy people in America are getting...

1 replies

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April 17, 2009 9:50 PM

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@Swizzler121: Um, it takes about as much effort to treat a decent-sized garden with pesticides as it does to weed it. Are you calling my grandpa lazy, punk?

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April 17, 2009 9:49 PM

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i have an organic garden. my kid is never gonna eat poison.

6 replies

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TechnoDestructo

April 18, 2009 7:54 AM

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@pecan 3.14159265:

Secret Service guys can get a little target practice.

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April 18, 2009 12:15 AM

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@JohnDeere: This is the kind of ignorant thinking that the organic lobby loves.

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April 18, 2009 1:52 AM

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@Radi0logy: But there is a difference between growing a kitchen garden, which is what the Obama's are doing, and large production farming. (just as an aside, I do come from a family of large production wheat, soybean and cotton farmers)

Organic is easy to do for the backyard gardener.

The issue is that this \"lady\" is all bent out of shape because the President isn't going to dust everything down with sevin dust.

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April 18, 2009 1:20 PM

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@HappyCthulhu: ya, thats kinda my thing. my garden is barely 400 square foot. if your not lazy you dont need any pesticides. i get my little girl out to help me squish the bugs ourselves. especially the svb's. im not purposely gonna put poisons on our food.

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April 17, 2009 10:20 PM

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@JohnDeere: Unless he trick or treats in my neighborhood.

Muah-hahaha!

Just kidding :)

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Jim Topoleski

April 17, 2009 10:04 PM

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@JohnDeere: seriously... even water is poison if you drink enough of it.

And he's probably been breathing poison since day 1.

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XTC46

April 17, 2009 9:57 PM

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@JohnDeere: Your kid will probabaly eat poison, smoke poison (or second hand smoke), drink poison, etc. Its inevitable.

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redskull

April 17, 2009 9:51 PM

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My grandma did the dish soap thing too. She'd pour her dirty dishwater on her flowers to get rid of bugs.

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Erin Cummins

April 17, 2009 9:57 PM

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Dish soap + water gets rid of earwigs and most other buggies in the soil, cayenne and black pepper keep away rabbits and chipmunks, as do marigolds planted around the border of your veggie garden (their smell is a deterrent).

There are lots of videos online about keeping a natural garden. It's usually much cheaper (for me anyway) to use these methods instead of buying pesticide at the hardware store. I always end up with more tomatoes and green beans than I could ever eat.

4 replies

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Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!)

April 18, 2009 2:35 PM

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@Erin Cummins: Onions and other stinkies like garlic are also fairly effective at keeping away the rabbits.

So's chicken wire. :D

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April 18, 2009 12:23 AM

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@Erin Cummins: Our neighbor has a yard full of marigolds... there is a group of bunnies that LOVE to eat them.

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April 17, 2009 10:20 PM

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@Erin Cummins: We've used soap and water as well as cayenne with good results too.

Lots of good tips here: [ezinearticles.com]

Absolutely cheaper, and we usually have all of this stuff around anyway. A few large spray bottles of cayenne, water, soap, garlic and onion got us through last summer.

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pecan 3.14159265

April 17, 2009 10:17 PM

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@Erin Cummins: I'd plant veggies just to attract rabbits and chipmunks.

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April 17, 2009 9:58 PM

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For a home garden the ONLY time you should be applying pesticides is when you have something wiping out your crop. A 5-15% loss (random numbers) is not something to worry about on the home scale. Now when you wake up one morning and there are (bad) insects covering your garden, THEN you whip out the pesticides.

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WiglyWorm must cease and decist

April 17, 2009 9:59 PM

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Hmmm a cheap way to protect your garden from pests?

I know! Grow some plants in it!

2 replies

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WiglyWorm must cease and decist

April 17, 2009 10:02 PM

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@WiglyWorm: Oh, companion plants too.

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WiglyWorm must cease and decist

April 17, 2009 10:03 PM

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@WiglyWorm: You could also totally look into some beneficial weeds while you were at it.

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gStein_*|bringing starpipe back|*

April 18, 2009 12:20 AM

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@WiglyWorm: so, i was looking at your list of beneficial weeds, found nothing interesting, and closed the tab.
but when i closed it, i thought i saw something interesting, so i went back and looked again.
this line is in there:
# Cannabis -- clothes can be made out of hemp, as well as a form of paper both cheaper than and superior to wood-pulp paper.[citation needed] The seeds can also be used in most of the same capacities as soybeans, both for food and as a source of vegetable oil and fuel alcohol. Plant matter can be smoked or eaten for its mind-altering effects. Seeds are high in Omega 3 and 6; a great source of fiber, potassium & protein.[citation needed]

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Michael Belisle

April 18, 2009 7:25 AM

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@gStein: This is why I love/hate Wikipedia.

Especially the part where someone added \"citation needed\" instead of deleting it outright.

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WiglyWorm must cease and decist

April 17, 2009 10:05 PM

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So yeah, there's plenty of ways to do it cheaply, easily, and effectively. Farmers have been doing this for thousands of years and I don't think humans did all that badly for themselves.

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April 17, 2009 10:01 PM

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@ Swizzler121: Pesticides kill bugs, herbicides kill weeds. Weeding won't prevent bugs.

2 replies

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April 17, 2009 10:04 PM

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@blue_streak: that's what the daily watering is for. and when she's weeding she looks for bugs and such.

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April 17, 2009 11:00 PM

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@Swizzler121: What does she do when she sees the bugs, wave at them?

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April 18, 2009 7:42 AM

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@The_IT_Crone: She kills them with mind bullets, obviously.

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April 17, 2009 10:02 PM

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The thought of it being organic made her \"shudder?\" I think most backyard gardens are organic, crazy over-reacting Janet. What's wrong with a pesticide-free little garden?

5 replies

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April 17, 2009 11:15 PM

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@Crabby Cakes: Exactly what I thought. \"Oh noes, where's my chemicals\"? Doesn't make sense. What, you can catch syphilis from a cucumber that hasn't been properly chemically-treated or something?

Another thing that doesn't make much sense is the letter they sent. The closest they ever seem to get to a POINT is:

\"As you go about planning and planting the White House garden, we respectfully encourage you to recognize the role conventional agriculture plays in the U.S in feeding the ever-increasing population, contributing to the U.S. economy and providing a safe and economical food supply.\"

Otherwise, it reads like some sort of a let's-be-pen-pals thing, all \"hi, I heard you're going to start a garden. I like gardens too! Gardens are good! They give us food!\"

And even that line is so vague as to be nearly meaningless... okay, the average farmer produces enough food for 144 people, yay, I hereby official recognize him/her. Good job, well done. Now if you'll excuse me I've got six tomato plants to get settled.

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April 18, 2009 3:46 AM

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@bibliophibian:

Not only that, but there's something vaguely anti-home-gardening about the tone.

\"If Americans were still required to farm to support their family's basic food and fiber needs, would the U.S. have been leaders in the advancement of science, communication, education, medicine, transportation and the arts?\"

It's almost like saying that home-gardening efforts to produce your own produce are sending us back to the stone age, and that any properly patriotic American would stop mucking around and let the real pros who \"understand crop protection technologies\" do the job.

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WiglyWorm must cease and decist

April 17, 2009 10:06 PM

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@Crabby Cakes: Because when the president does it, he sets an example. An example which is potentially bad for their business.

Honestly, they'd have been better suited by not calling any attention to it at all.

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April 17, 2009 11:22 PM

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@WiglyWorm: Exactly, now they come off looking like crazy pesticide pushers! get off my lawn, crazy pesticidies!

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Verucalise (Est.February2008)

April 17, 2009 10:24 PM

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@WiglyWorm: Well said, took the words right out of my ... ummm, typing fingers?

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April 17, 2009 10:04 PM

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I live in the insect capital of the world, and I don't typically have insect problems in my garden. The only pest problems I had last year were doves and blue jays pecking holes in my tomatoes, for which I covered the plants in netting. My secret is lots of home made compost for good plant health, as well as planting varieties that like our climate.

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April 17, 2009 10:05 PM

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More than health, I think it's important to note that chemicals aren't conducive to a healthy ecosystem. They don't stay in your garden; they percolate into other areas, too, and eventually can make it back into streams and rivers where the water intake for water treatment plants) is.

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April 17, 2009 10:11 PM

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I'm not surprised. Some group wants the Obamas to \"get rid\" of their dog because it isn't a dog from a rescue dog organization.

5 replies

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April 18, 2009 12:25 AM

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@TerribleDecade: I know, I know! They get rid of it by turning it into a shelter. Then they happen to look in that same shelter for a dog and happen to find one they like. Everyone's happy!

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EYESONLY

April 17, 2009 11:41 PM

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@TerribleDecade: Agreed that it's silly to tell them to get rid of a dog they already have. I thought, though, that (at least from some quarters) the complaint was because they had said they would adopt a rescue dog--again, to set a good example and all that--and then didn't.

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pecan 3.14159265

April 18, 2009 3:39 AM

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@EYESONLY: They said they'd try, and I think that's where people get mixed up. They never said they absolutely would, they said they'd try.

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WiglyWorm must cease and decist

April 17, 2009 10:13 PM

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@TerribleDecade: Which would make perfect sense. Since your dog isn't a rescued dog (which is infeasible anyway since his daughter has allergies), put him in a shelter which will eventually euthanize him.

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Ratty

April 17, 2009 10:52 PM

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@WiglyWorm: A shelter dog vs. purchased dog has zero to do with allergies. There's no truly hypoallergenic dog, and beyond that shelters get filled with mixes that are the ones sold as hypoallergenic.

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mmmsoap

April 18, 2009 4:46 AM

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@Ratty: And \"purchased\" is not synonymous with \"puppy-mill\". There are plenty of good, safe, ethical breeders out there, and I'm assuming the Obamas found one of those. I know we're all taught that pet-store puppies are bad news, but there is a happy medium.

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April 17, 2009 11:00 PM

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@Ratty: Very difficult to find (although he is the President, I guess...), and they're often older. Granted, that's where I'll eventually get my hypoallergenic dog, but you do also run into the issue of not being able to train it from a young age, and you won't know about genetic health problems the way you might from a (reputable) breeder.

Long story short: some people need to spend less time looking for things by which to be offended. This comment not directed at Ratty. :)

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bohemian

April 17, 2009 10:17 PM

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I find the letter a bit humorous. Someone with a vested interest in people slowly poisoning themselves and the environment is freaked out because the White House is setting an example they are ill equipped to counter.

My mom always had a kitchen garden even when we lived in a large city. I don't remember her ever using anything on the garden besides water. Natural options are cheaper and usually don't require a run to the store. The closest I have come to using a chemical on our garden was cig butts soaked in a gallon jug of water and sprayed it on to get rid of a pest infestation.

Trying to put fear into people for not using chemicals is pretty silly.

3 replies

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April 17, 2009 10:28 PM

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@bohemian: DO NOT TREAT YOUR TOMATOS WITH ANYTHING THAT IS MADE WITH TOBACCO!!!!!, like your cig butt mix.

You can spread the tobacco mosaic virus to your tomatos.
In fact, I did that once just by touching my tomato plant with the hand that I had just smoked with.

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April 17, 2009 11:14 PM

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@HappyCthulhu: I thought you were going to warn us about Tomacco, in which case I'd have to point out that I think it was the Uranium that was the cause of that...

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April 17, 2009 11:29 PM

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@reynwrap582: Yeah, Tomacco was the first thing that came to my mind, too. And then an image of a nicotine-crazed cow with bloodshot eyes.

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arl84

April 18, 2009 3:09 AM

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@Chris Walters: Eeeew, these taste like grandma!

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April 17, 2009 11:03 PM

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@HappyCthulhu: Yeah I only found out about that last year. It's horrifyingly contagious.

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nbs2

April 17, 2009 10:17 PM

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With all the crap that attacks DC area gardens, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that some pesticides get used.

1 replies

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pecan 3.14159265

April 18, 2009 3:39 AM

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@nbs2: Mainly squirrels.

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Canino

April 17, 2009 10:25 PM

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I wonder if the Obamas had a vegetable garden at their home in Chicago, or if this is something to make people say, \"See, they're not elites, they're just like us!\"

4 replies

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Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!)

April 18, 2009 2:42 PM

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@Canino: There's been a groundswell of citizens asking the president -- Bush too, then Obama -- to plant out the White House lawn as a \"Victory Garden\" as Eleanor Roosevelt did during WWII. Lawns are expensive to maintain (and relatively useless and environmentally unfriendly), and showcasing home gardening in the nation's capital is good. But perhaps more to the point, more and more gourmet restaurants now maintain a garden to support the restaurant, and I believe the plantings in this garden are geared towards providing herbs and so forth for the White House chef, who is expected to be something of a trend-setter nationwide for cheffing.

Regardless of whether the Obamas gardened before, there's been a lot of citizen support for a White House garden, and on-grounds gardens for gourmet kitchens is a big and growing trend. What's the problem with it? It provides tasty food for state dinners AND teaches people about healthy eating and gardening. Oh teh noes, the do-gooders, doing inexpensive and useful good at the behest of their constituents!

I presume Bush was long since done with reading children's books when he was elected (Jenna and Barbara being too old for it), but I'm not going to bitch that he's \"grandstanding\" when reading to kindergarteners to promote childhood literacy and love of reading. Sheesh.

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April 17, 2009 10:29 PM

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@Canino: Whether or not they had a garden in Chicago, it's nice that they are doing one now.
Lead by example and all that.

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Canino

April 18, 2009 6:16 AM

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@HappyCthulhu: Lead by example and all that.

I don't need the obamas to be any kind of example for me, thanks. Especially if that \"leadership\" is fakery and grandstanding.

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April 20, 2009 2:38 PM

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@Canino: Does everything that Pres. Obama does have to be politically motivated and judged?

Seriously....we're talking about a garden....not Middle East peace.

Personally, I think this is a good example of some of the things that everyone should try to do, even if it's just a tomato plant in a pot on the porch.

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t-r0y

April 18, 2009 4:29 PM

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@Canino: I agree. Be who you are. I wouldn't be surprised if there was an opinion poll behind this decision.

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YourTechSupport

April 17, 2009 10:37 PM

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@HappyCthulhu: Chives, bitches! Chives!

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pecan 3.14159265

April 18, 2009 3:39 AM

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@YourTechSupport: Lulz. Thanks for that.

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sponica

April 17, 2009 10:32 PM

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So um, is dish soap organic? Last I checked, it wasn't something I'd want to be eating. granted it won't kill me, but ultra dawn can't be organic...and what happens when it gets drained into the aquifer?

5 replies

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TechnoDestructo

April 18, 2009 7:58 AM

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I wonder how many people go to college thinking they're going to major in \"organic chemistry\" and then get really confused.

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mmmsoap

April 18, 2009 4:47 AM

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@sponica: Not sure what kind of soap the original commenter was using, but there are plenty of non-petroleum based soaps out there. Seventh Generation is one good example.

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April 20, 2009 2:36 PM

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@mmmsoap: I make my mix from 2 tablespoons of regular Dawn dish soap and a gallon of water.

As for it going into the aquifer...not too worried about that because of the small amount of soap used.

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Aladdyn

April 17, 2009 11:06 PM

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@sponica: lol good call. You really cant avoid chemicals in the modern world, theres phalates in shampoos that are absorbed into your skin, chemicals in the air of course, and if you have municipal drinking water theres a good chance your drinking asbestos (flakes off the asbestos/concrete pipes that were popular in the past). Of course asbestos is actually a mineral and drinking it doesn't do anything bad but telling people they are drinking it usually freaks them out.

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April 18, 2009 12:22 AM

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@Aladdyn: The point is clearly that the organic lobby has a vested interested in pushing their inferior, less practical, more expensive, and horribly inefficient product. What's the best way to do that? Convince the plodding masses that the stuff used to efficiently grow crops is POISION OMG!! And will kill your kids. The standard rule seems to be --

1) Create more expensive product
2) Convince sheep that less expensive = dangerous
3) PROFIT!!! $$$$$$$

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Aladdyn

April 18, 2009 2:36 AM

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@Radi0logy: Yeah I always shudder when the wife wants to buy some fruit thats organically grown. Give me the cheaper fruit with the scary chemicals and ill wipe it off before i eat it.

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April 18, 2009 3:25 PM

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@Aladdyn: Yeah when you're in the store you compare side by side organic to regular fruits, the regular fruit is almost always bigger, firmer, and more delicious looking. And of course 40% cheaper.

I've trained the wife to not even see organic produce departments. Hell, we avoid Whole Foods and their insane 30% across the board up-charge completely.

I'm probably going to get this completely wrong, cause its been a few years, but I always think of asbestos (and not just cause you mentioned it before). Apparently, 98% of the asbestos from the earth is 100% ok to humans, including all the asbestos from the United States. But theres someplace, I believe in Africa, from where the produced asbestos causes health problems. People are too dumb to grasp the concept of \"good\" asbestos and \"bad\" asbestos, so they just get rid of all of it, even though its extremely good at what it does.

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DrNick

April 19, 2009 11:53 PM

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Look up Libby, Montana and keep your half-remembered completely inaccurate \"facts\" to yourself.

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JulesNoctambule

April 18, 2009 7:31 PM

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@Radi0logy: 'Yeah when you're in the store you compare side by side organic to regular fruits, the regular fruit is almost always bigger, firmer, and more delicious looking. And of course 40% cheaper.'

Really? Wow, where do you shop? None of the conventional fruit at our grocery store looks good at all. That's probably why I always end up at the farmer's market. Pesticide-free, local and even cheaper than the grocery store!

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Verucalise (Est.February2008)

April 17, 2009 10:36 PM

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They seem to be all up in arms about this organic garden, comparing it to commercial agriculture. There is no comparison. I have a small garden, and I would be furious if a local farmer stopped by and told me all the things I \"Could\" or \"Should\" be doing.

Next we will all be arguing whether cheese from Wisconsin is better than cheese from Vermont.

In other words, WHO CARES. It's the President's choice, and he made a decision he believed worked best for them. He just wanted some fresh veggies, that's all.

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Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!)

April 18, 2009 2:44 PM

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@verucalise_is#4!: \"I would be furious if a local farmer stopped by and told me all the things I \"Could\" or \"Should\" be doing.\"

Not only that, a lot of stuff commercial farmers do is illegal in your home garden, unless you live in a totally zoning-free area. And for some of the pesticides farmers use, you need a license and sometimes bonding/insurance. (One presumes this varies by state, of course.)

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humphrmi

April 17, 2009 10:37 PM

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My grandfather had a farm in New Mexico (my parents and grandmother always referred to it as \"The Garden\" but it was a couple of acres of crops plus some livestock, so... anyway...)

Since he built his farm during the dust bowl (and BTW built his house and garage himself) he had to dig his own wells at various points around the farm for irrigation and water service to the house.

The pumps consisted of whatever two-stroke and automobile engines he could get his hands on cheap, and every day he went out to \"The Garden\" and fueled up the pumps, started them, and began his daily routine.

This long and seemingly pointless comment does have a point, and that is: the various combustion engines he used to pump water also spewed various noxious gasses around the farm. Which did a great job of keeping the pests away. I never once saw my grandfather spray pesticides on his crops.

1 replies

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April 17, 2009 11:17 PM

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@humphrmi: Well there's the solution, and with the increase in greenhouse gases to go with it! (greenhouses = good for plants, right?)

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Sai

April 17, 2009 10:43 PM

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So I tried to read the letter in full. Maybe it's just me, but I'm actually trained in such things (partial English degree) and I still was unable to wade through the padding of bullcrap to get to what they were actually trying to say. Is that how politicking works? That is no way to make a point. =( The essaying protocols that were branded into my forebrain cry out and are silenced.

Oh, wait. In the last paragraph they give him a link with information on 'crop protection products' that is like the little emails that my mom sends me saying, \"You should check this out - I thought you might find it interesting :-)\".

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headcase

April 20, 2009 3:52 PM

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@Sai: You'd like \"Politics and the English Language\" by George Orwell. You can find it easily on the web if you haven't read it.

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April 17, 2009 11:06 PM

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No doubt if they make a Chicago style \"campaign contribution\" they will get what they want.

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Jeremy W. Simmons

April 17, 2009 11:12 PM

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When I was a kid, my parents had a garden, and I don't remember them using pesticides unless fertilizer is included in that. I think if it's not needed why add it? The letter just sounds silly; I don't see how using pesticides is going to help the economy, which is what I understood from that. I am all for going organic just to drive that lady crazy.

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April 17, 2009 11:14 PM

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I don't use them but that is no reason for anyone to \"shudder\". What a total drama queen!

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April 17, 2009 11:42 PM

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\"While a garden is a great idea, the thought of it being organic made Janet Braun, CropLife Ambassador Coordinator and I shudder.\"

The poor grammar makes me shudder.

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turkeyspam

April 17, 2009 11:44 PM

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Here's a novel concept: how about they keep their opinions to themselves? What a stupid bitch. Just because you are pro-pesticide doesn't mean everyone else has to be.

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kbrook

April 18, 2009 5:11 AM

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@turkeyspam: Could you maybe disagree with her without demeaning her at the same time? I'm pretty sure she's not a female dog - unless dogs developed opposable thumbs while I wasn't looking.

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Jonathan Drake

April 17, 2009 11:57 PM

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I don't have a garden (though I'd like to someday), but I've heard that ladybugs are awesome pest-killing little critters. Some people buy them in bulk, just for that very reason.

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rlee

April 18, 2009 12:05 AM

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\"... made ... I shudder\".

Ack! Classic over-correction. Should use \"me\", not \"I\".

1 replies

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April 18, 2009 2:08 PM

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@rlee: And the gerund properly takes a possessive, but it's such a common error to use the pronoun instead that it's tough to smack her for that.

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April 18, 2009 12:09 AM

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Anyone else waiting for the \"pro pesticide\" commercials to start popping up (much like the \"pro HFCS\" commercials).

\"Vegetables just taste better with DDT on them!!!\"

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PsiCop

April 18, 2009 12:13 AM

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The only pesticides I've used were powders to control grubs.

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richcreamerybutter

April 18, 2009 12:17 AM

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What if I wrote MACA a friendly letter and in which I described Bonnie McCarvel and Janet Braun as \"total dicks?\"

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Jennifer Gile

April 18, 2009 12:58 AM

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I do home-garden. I do not use pesticides. There's absolutely no reason to use them. By watering mindfully and encouraging birds to feast on the slugs and snails, our plants are robust and healthy.

Keep in mind that pesticides kill off the garden enemies and the garden friends. Pesticides are a waste of money and not worth the diminished food quality.

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Michael John Szabo

April 18, 2009 1:01 AM

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Well for a personal home garden there are certainly cheaper ways to do without pesticides, just go out everyday and squish all the bugs you see by hand. Less money, but more time consuming. So I have absolutely no problems with a home garden being organic.

In the case of the white house garden, where most likely I am paying the gardeners to squish those bugs it might be a different story. Gardener wages are higher than non-organic methods.

I do think organic farming on a commercial scale is a bit elitist and not as good as it first sounds. Sure if you made all the farms in the world organic there may be 0.002% less chance that somebody will get cancer, however this would also cause mass starvation and a lot more immediate deaths. I don't believe we are at a point where we could turn back the clock and go organic without problems.

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JulesNoctambule

April 18, 2009 7:38 PM

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@Michael John Szabo: 'In the case of the white house garden, where most likely I am paying the gardeners to squish those bugs'

You, personally? Or are you worried about that 1/16th of a penny of your taxes ending up in their salary? If it's the former, what's your base rate? I love to kill bugs and could use a summer job.

Of course, if you think you're paying the gardener, you probably think you're paying the cleaning staff as well. God forbid the home of our nation's leader be kept professionally clean, right? Tell you what -- I'm really pale, so an indoor job might be better than gardening. Fire them all and hire me! I'll keep the place dusted nicely for half the price.

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Tommy Sullivan

April 18, 2009 1:14 AM

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I have a personal garden. I don't use pesticides because I personally remove all pests within my garden... If I have a plant with a bunch of pests on it, I drown the plant until they die. Otherwise, I kill them with my knife.
I haven't run into a problem that couldn't be solved with those two methods, but I would imagine those are impractical when you're gardening on a scale larger than that of container gardens.

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jfischer

April 18, 2009 1:29 AM

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Pesticides have always been the last-ditch option. The concept of \"Integrated Pest Management\" implies that one is well-advised to use the least toxic alternative, as long as it works well enough.

IPM is all about measuring, regardless of what one's approach to controlling pests and pathogens might be. It should not matter if one uses crystals and incense or short-range battlefield tactical nuclear weapons, one should still verify the impact on the pest/pathogen.

Urban areas are isolated from the mainstream agricultural areas, and are therefore less likely to have infestation of many of the most common pests of food plants, so there may be little need for \"pest control\" or \"pathogen control\" in the Obama veggie garden. But the question about which tools to use against pests is PREMATURE before one has a detectable level of pests or pathogens, isn't it?

The trade group needs immediate medical attention to deal with the self-inflicted gunshot wound to the foot!

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April 18, 2009 2:27 AM

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I have a backyard garden. I use a small amount of fertilizer when I plant because our soil kind of sucks, but no pesticides. I grow easy things like tomatoes, lettuce, and a few strawberries. This year, I'm splitting a CSA share, but I'll still grow my own lettuce and tomatoes.

The last laugh was on me the first year I gardened in a city/in this city/in this region when mysterious varmints ate all of my basil just before harvest time.

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Vicky

April 18, 2009 3:32 AM

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In one of my horticulture courses it was explained to me that the average home gardener is not especially well served by using pesticides or even by using particularly time-consuming or costly fertilization schedules. Most backyard gardens are not large enough for the yield-per-acre increases to be practical. The yield on my corn patch was plenty for myself and my husband even though probably half of the ears were eaten up, and it was just a lot less frustrating to surrender the tomatoes to the stink bugs at the tail end of the season.

You'll inevitably lose a few plants to disease, fungus, insects, drainage problems, poor germination, or freak weather patterns. People whose entire livelihoods depend on their garden, who spend just about every waking minute of the entire growing season tending to them, are unable to save every plant. I just do what I can with the time I'm willing and able to spend and don't get too worked up about a spinach plant full of holes. A good gardening day involves a lot of sweat, mud, manure, worms, spiders, and bees. You win some, you lose some. It's marvelous.

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Shawn Vernon

April 18, 2009 3:41 AM

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I strongly suggest organic gardening. Here in the Dallas area we are blessed to have a radio show on each Sunday called \"The Natural Way\" with Howard Garrett (website:[www.dirtdoctor.com]). I have implemented a number of his methods and had great results. I use a plug of tobacco steeped in a coffee can with water and mix in a bit of dish soap and some cayenne pepper. It really cuts down on the bugs. When its time for the grass hoppers I simply sprinkle flour over the garden and it gums them up. The only thing I cant find an organic answer for is fire ants (although orange peels will make them move the mound about a foot or two). Happy Gardening and feed the birds.

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pecan 3.14159265

April 18, 2009 3:41 AM

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Anyone have an idea of what I could potentially grow in a window box or a terra cotta pot on my patio? I don't have a lawn so I can't plant anything in the soil, but I'd at the very least like to try for herbs because they're generally very expensive at the grocery store. I'm looking forward to my local farmer's market to open, but I'm not sure they'll be carrying herbs.

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JulesNoctambule

April 18, 2009 7:43 PM

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@pecan 3.14159265: Herbs should do nicely, though rosemary can get massive!

I just bought some dwarf variety heirloom tomatoes that will grow nicely in a pot, though I'm putting them in my yard. They were the Beryl variety, and I bought them from this couple: [nctomatoman.topcities.com] though they don't appear on the list.

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April 18, 2009 2:16 PM

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@pecan 3.14159265: Herbs tend to be very happy in windowboxes and small spaces--just take it easy on the water and avoid the temptation to give them any richer soil than you have to, as they're more flavorful in straitened conditions. They do like as much sun as possible, so south-facing is the best position for them. You've got plenty of time to start them from seed, too. I don't remember what part of the country you're in, but basil and cilantro tend to be pretty easy to grow. Oregano and rosemary are perennials, and thus tend to be slower from seed (but if you can overwinter them they'll be there for you next year).

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kbrook

April 18, 2009 3:50 AM

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Superthrive. My parents use it on the trees they grow for bonsai hobbyists and they swear by it.

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April 18, 2009 3:57 AM

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Having the right friends is only slightly more important than having the right enemies. The pesticide industry is a pretty good enemy to have.

Moreover, as others have pointed out, Bonnie McCarvel is a kook to insist that pesticide-based agriculture is \"conventional.\" It's only been used for about 60 years now, out of how many thousands of years of agricultural history?

If you're not aiming for maximal crop yields, there are some easy ways to prevent pests in your garden.

1. Don't overfertilize. Too much nitrogen will cause soft, lush green growth, which attracts pests. Many bugs can smell new growth from hundreds of yards away. It draws them like a beacon.

2. Water appropriately and use mulch. If a plant is stressed by too much or too little water, it's more vulnerable to pest damage. Also, mites and flea beetles want dry conditions to reproduce. Personally, if I see treehoppers on a pepper plant, it's usually a sign that the plant needs more water. Don't ask me about the science behind it.

3. Plant resistant varieties. There are cucumbers that are resistant to cucumber beetles, and squashes that are resistant to squash bugs.

4. Cover your plants.

5. Weed. If weeds are growing in or near your garden, they probably have pests. Get rid of those host plants.

6. Kill and deter ants. I pour boiling water in any nest I find around my garden. Ants bring scales, aphids, mealybugs, treehoppers, and all sorts of nasties.

7. Don't use pesticides. Pesticides kill everything, and the beneficials that keep the pests in check (ladybugs, lacewings, mantids, assassin bugs, cryptolaemus, etc) take much, much longer to come back after an application of pesticide. As predators, they have much longer reproductive cycles, compared to pests like aphids which can double their population every three or four days. So the more pesticide you use, the more you'll need.

Dish soap works okay. You can buy organic insecticidal soap if you don't want to use the stuff from your kitchen. But in my experience, it's not exactly harmless to the plants. Just as it destroys the waxy cuticle of bugs, it could (and does, I suspect) destroy or weaken the waxy surface of leaves. I do use it occasionally, but I don't use it very often. I'm more likely to use homemade garlic or chile spray.

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Brian James Schend

April 18, 2009 4:32 AM

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This reminds me of way back when...

George Daddy Bush said he didn't like broccoli, and boy were the broccoli farmers - pardon the pun - steamed.

That's life as prez. No matter what, people hate you.

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humphrmi

April 18, 2009 4:40 AM

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I'd like to make Janet Braun shudder. I bet I can do it too.

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zandar

April 18, 2009 10:42 AM

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what, does she think organic gardening will encourage e. coli? demon possession? This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard- well, I surf teh internets. This morning (so far).

Another thing you can do, while we're listing organic gardening tips, is companion planting. I'm going to grow some borage and summer savory in my garden this year, which attract a type of wasp that just loves to eat certain garden pests.

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April 18, 2009 12:08 PM

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It's not really our business if Michelle Obama had the Army Corps of Engineers till up a portion of the White House lawn for a vegetable garden, what's being grown there, how it's being grown, etc. The thing is, she's the First Lady, and that makes here interesting, so we are naturally curious. So she tells us the details.

Likewise, it's not the business of some \"Better Living Through Chemistry\" group that Mrs. Obama chooses to go organic. Yes, it requires more work, and yes, much of that work isn't really practical on the scale of Big Agriculture. This is all just a bunch of hooey designed to Carterize the Obamas. Besides, what did Laura Bush do for eight years when she was First Lady?

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Corine Houry-Kling

April 18, 2009 4:55 PM

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@HurtsSoGood: Well, apparently the Bush Whitehouse only ate organic foods, but I don't recall the pesticide industry being pissed off about it.

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flipnut

April 18, 2009 12:53 PM

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I grow peaches in SC, we've tried organic using just about every trick we can find. But in the end the bugs and the humidity here forces us to use some pesticides and fungicides. So we use a low spray program and only spray as needed.

In my home garden, I use Seven in a hand sprayer on the squash to squash bugs at bay since nothing organic works against them. Everything else survives just fine with our pesticides.

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April 18, 2009 2:19 PM

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I don't grow anything particularly prone to serious pest problems, like fruit, and I'm lazy and sloppy, so I think there's a serious risk I'd harm myself in the application of serious pesticides. Therefore I mostly hand-drown Japanese beetles (tried neem oil--I think they think it's salad dressing), use Liquid Fence against the rabbits, and swear a lot.

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tc4b

April 18, 2009 3:11 PM

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@undefined: @mmmsoap: \"Clearly you can't be spraying around poison-in-a-bottle, but for the most part if you don't drink it straight from the source, you're pretty okay.\"

If it's not poison (why \"Clearly,\" btw? says who?) then why can't you drink it?

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mmmsoap

April 18, 2009 5:56 PM

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@tc4b: It's all about exposure levels. While you might buy a 5 pounds of pesticides at a time, it's usually diluted heavily, then used as a fine mist on the actual product. At that level, it's not directly poisonous (as compared to, say, cyanide) in that it doesn't kill you instantly. On the other hand, exposure in high levels, especially over time, is a big problem.

Why \"clearly\"? Because the pesticide/agri-industry know they can't actually trust that anyone will remember to wash off their food, especially if people don't know exactly what's been on various veggies. Thus, the products they use have to be relatively safe for consumption at the low levels they're applied onto crops.

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April 18, 2009 3:40 PM

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OMG do these women not have anything else better to do with their time other than write that letter.... they should be docked in pay for whatever company time they used to write that letter.... people amaze me .... it isn't any of their business what someone plans to do with their personal garden.... If I were Mrs. Obama my reply would go a little something like this;

Dear Janet,

Thank you for sending me that very long winded letter about agriculture in America I learned alot about the numerous americans who work in this field and statistics on it's history, however; you did not clearly explain how or why you have any reason or purpose in telling me what I should do in my garden.

Go fuck yourself.
Sincerely,

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April 18, 2009 3:59 PM

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I never use insecticides and get great veggies in my garden.
I guess it's a secret though, since consumerist never publishes what I write.

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Anonymous

April 18, 2009 5:01 PM

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We have four chickens that lay eggs for us and live in a little red coop in our backyard. They are the best pest and weed control and fertilizing options out there. You can be lazy, sick the chickens on the garden (with netting over your plants of course!) and watch them dig up weeds, eat bugs, aerate the soil and crap all over the place. It's magic! Plus 4 eggs a day isn't half bad either.

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April 18, 2009 7:35 PM

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The problem with pesticides is that they don't degrade. Like almost all petroleum based products, they just keep building up in the soil and infiltrating the water table. The DIRECT danger of pesticides is the effect they can have in embryo genesis (fetus growth).

It's better to outsmart the bugs. Introduce natural enemies. Or use natural oils as a spray.

Even if I'm totally wrong and nothing has ever happened to anyone because of pesticides...why risk it? Humans do some amazingly stupid s**t. One of them is risking destruction, coming up to the point of catastrophic, systemic failure, then going OOPS! And having to do a massive back pedal. Why do we keep repeating this behavior?

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Overheal

April 18, 2009 7:36 PM

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I live in the carolinas, so for most pests I can keep a hatchery of Venus Fly Traps in the garden to attract and eat anything stupid enough to come across by petunias.

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April 18, 2009 9:44 PM

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I garden to reduce my grocery bill, and have the pleasure of taking a tomato off the plant, and then eating it mere minutes later. Or, like I used to do as a kid, go out to pick green beans, and end up bringing inside only a 1/4 of what I picked.

Why on earth would I use pesticides?

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April 18, 2009 11:25 PM

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We have a small garden, in which we grow easy things like pole beans, lettuce, tomatoes, jalapenos, and some herbs. I prefer to avoid use of pesticides whenever possible. The only pesticide I use is Sevin dust; and I usually only have to apply it once a season. If I notice that the ants have gotten out of control and are eating everything up, I do one application of Sevin. I don't think I applied any last summer at all.

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nacoran

April 19, 2009 3:51 AM

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You'll get a better crop if you use pesticides and chemical fertilizers and actually you may be being greener by the time you factor in the lower yields for the same amount of land cleared for growing and water use. That said, one of the reasons big farms have so many problems with pests is the concentration of one particular crop in an area. In a mixed garden if you get an infestation it may only affect certain plants. If you could figure out an easy way to intersperse crops on large tracks of land and still harvest them efficiently... If you don't mind the noise you I've heard having a few peacocks running around your garden eating bugs works great.

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April 20, 2009 6:03 AM

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Nope. That's the entire reason that I grow my own fruit and vegetables--so I can control what's in/on my family's food. Otherwise, I'd never bother.

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