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Jeff Talbert
April 7, 2009 8:09 PM
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Nice story. Only complaint. Why not make the images of use, some of the images are so small they are useless. Why cant you put full size photos linked...

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2 replies
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CFinWV
April 8, 2009 1:33 PM
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@Jeff Talbert: I can see them fine when I use [Ctrl][+]

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floraposte
April 7, 2009 8:37 PM
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@Jeff Talbert: They're small on the original page, too. Apparently it's a domain limitation.

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Verucalise (Est.February2008)
April 7, 2009 8:14 PM
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We have Stewarts gas stations around us, and they don't have ATM's per say. They have the little machine you swipe the card and put your PIN into and request the amount of money, and the cash is given to you out of the register by the cashier. The machine is right next to the register, and although not 100% foolproof- I feel safer using it. It's also only $1 to use it.


My credit union is usually the only place I use the ATM beyond Stewarts- I'm familiar with the machine so I'd probably notice something amiss pretty easily. It's probably safest to use an ATM within a bank if you can, where they are least likely to fiddle with the machine.

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wardawg
April 7, 2009 11:13 PM
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@verucalise: I actually read about a problem with these particular devices, though it's more of a problem for the store than the consumer. Someone had a problem with his slip printing out and when he asked the manager about it the manager opened up the machine (it wasn't locked) and input a 4 digit security code which he made no effort to hide and selected the reprint option. There was nothing on the slip indicating it was a reprint, making it incredibly easy to come in whenever you wanted and reprint the last persons transaction and get it cashed.

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Verucalise (Est.February2008)
April 8, 2009 1:54 PM
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@wardawg: After you swipe and input info into the really small machine, the stewarts employee has to input their own code- I was told this was to verify the amount I was asking for was available within the register, and also what employee cashed it out. They also initial the original receipt and give it to you, they keep the copy.


The machine I use to swipe my card is completely different from the machine that prints out the receipt.

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Catpain Blackudder
April 8, 2009 2:16 PM
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@verucalise: Stewarts: the happiest place on earth, and supposedly one of the few places around here where sales are up. Now if only they'd bring back Chocolate Butter Almond...

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Oligarch_GitEmSteveDave
April 7, 2009 8:55 PM
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@verucalise: Sadly, that made me think about the episode of Family Guy when they went down south, and the ATM was a guy standing in a box.

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wgrune
April 7, 2009 9:17 PM
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@Oligarch_GitEmSteveDave:


Ha, same here. \"You smell like the inside of my mama's purse.\"

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Jeff Clark
April 7, 2009 8:24 PM
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@verucalise: Am I the only one who thinks this seems even sketchier than just having an ATM?

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BeerManMike
April 7, 2009 8:17 PM
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I still don't see how they can \"install\" these without being caught.

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5 replies
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IrvinCentaur
April 8, 2009 1:27 PM
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@BeerManMike: Most ATMs have the little glass panel, or mirror panel where a camera should go, but there is no camera installed. Also ATM cameras will run at about 1 frame every 10 or 15 seconds (sometimes even longer) until a card is inserted (then it goes to standard real time video recording) basically to save space on the hard drive storing the video. Also the camera is completely separate from the ATM itself (the video is transmitted over Ethernet to a server or similar setup). And banks usually don't touch the ATM whatsoever. One service stocks the money, another service repairs the parts, another service stocks the paper and ink or envelopes if it has envelope deposit, and another service deals with the security (camera, checking for skimmers etc). So basically nobody cares about anything except what they are working on.

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forgottenpassword
April 7, 2009 8:41 PM
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@BeerManMike:


All they'd have to do was walk up to the atm at night & stick them in place. Wearing a skimask hides their identity.

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Saisu Mimen
April 8, 2009 8:05 AM
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@forgottenpassword:

I used to work for a security company that dealt with these types of cameras and can tell you that you're giving the thieves too much credit; a damn BASEBALL CAP pulled really low is enough to defeat them. Same goes for bank security cameras that are placed on the top of wall/ceilings or corners.

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Raekwon
April 7, 2009 9:22 PM
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@forgottenpassword: I would think gas stations would have the best monitoring but if you were fast and experienced you could probably install things quite fast. Also keep in mind things like RedBoxes are almost never monitored.

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nrich239
April 7, 2009 8:21 PM
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@BeerManMike: My buddy used to work for a bank - he told me that they never checked the security cameras on the machine until someone reported something (not all the money came out, screen broken, etc)

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Jeff Clark
April 7, 2009 8:23 PM
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Am I the only one who thinks this seems even sketchier than just having an ATM?

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1 replies
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Jeff Clark
April 7, 2009 8:25 PM
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@Jeff Clark: Dammit. This was supposed to be a reply up above.

GIGGLES AND BEER, PEOPLE. GIGGLES AND BEER.

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AbsoluteIrrelevance
April 7, 2009 8:24 PM
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So, in other words, these skimmers and cameras are so good we'll almost never spot them in the wild, unless they have crappy adhesive.

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2 replies
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IrvinCentaur
April 8, 2009 1:32 PM
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@AbsoluteIrrelevance: Actually, the surface of the ATM has a texture and is made with a plastic that resists most common adhesive and glues. They arent totally foolproof but it will keep someone from sticking something onto the ATM with double-side tape. The older ATMs that you see don't work as well, but the newer ATMs (like the NCR Universal in the similar Giz article) work really well against tape. Basically you need some epoxy or heavy duty glue to get these to stick properly to the ATM. The card readers also now are all translucent, and have security holograms, and 3D images so you can tell if it is covered, or partially covered with a skimmer. However tellers and bank managers usually don't touch the ATM whatsoever so its usually totally up to the customer to spot these.

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nrich239
April 7, 2009 8:28 PM
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@AbsoluteIrrelevance: I wonder is the braille is correct? If not, hire a blind person to detect fakes! BRILLIANT!

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Eldritch
April 7, 2009 8:33 PM
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So we can't eat nuts anymore, we can't use ATMs anymore, just adding to the list of stuff to watch out for...

FUCK THIS, I'M GONNA GO BACK TO BED AND WATCH CARTOONS. FLAPJACK IS ON.

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Nighthawke
April 7, 2009 8:39 PM
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One of the safe bets would be to tug on various components of the ATM and see if they come loose.

If some do, then deal with it.

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3 replies
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wildhare
April 8, 2009 6:12 PM
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@Nighthawke: My only question about \"dealing with it\" is that these devices may already contain credit card data. A similarly dubious person finding one could just cull the data for themselves.

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sega8800
April 7, 2009 9:21 PM
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@Nighthawke: you can't always do that when there's a line behind you.

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Xkeeper
April 8, 2009 10:21 AM
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@sega8800: Sure you can; just pretend to be a klutz.

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coan_net
April 7, 2009 8:41 PM
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I can see it now.

Guy walks into the bank and says \"Hey, I read about skimmers & camera's, and seen this camera pointed towards the ATM, so I ripped it out and here it is\".

Bank: \"That was our security camera. You do know you will have to pay for that.\"

Guy: \"Opps...\"

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5 replies
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Applekid
April 7, 2009 9:03 PM
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@coan_net: I know this junk is going to get me to tug on pretty much every chunk of plastic not perfectly flat against the surface of the ATM.

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Brunette Bookworm
April 7, 2009 9:20 PM
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@Applekid: I know. I'm already paranoid enough. My boyfriend is even worse. I don't know if I should send him the article or not.

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Oligarch_GitEmSteveDave
April 7, 2009 8:56 PM
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@coan_net: The banks cameras tend to be behind glass and hardwired and a pain to get out.

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howie_in_az
April 7, 2009 9:00 PM
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I don't like that the linked article keeps saying that he market is unregulated.

Also I lolled at the \"BANCO REAL\" card next to the fake key input thingy.

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2 replies
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floraposte
April 8, 2009 12:37 AM
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@howie_in_az: It's a Brazilian bank. Or are they known for a lot of skimming problems or something and that's why it's funny?

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howie_in_az
April 9, 2009 6:56 PM
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@floraposte: \"BANCO REAL\" just sounds like a scam -- I took it as \"REAL BANK, SWAERZ!\".

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Sunny Yeung
April 7, 2009 9:44 PM
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The Wells Fargo ATM I frequent has a display that is flush with the machine's surface. Also, when you insert the card, it holds the card until the end of the transaction. I suppose that to skimmer-proof this system, the ATM's card feeding mechanism can make some random movements on the card (to \"jerk around\" with the skimmer, if you will) before taking the card in for reading.

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cm22books
April 7, 2009 11:46 PM
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@Sunny Yeung: I work for a bank and we remotely installed a software that does just that. It shakes the card on the way into the reader in an effort to ruin the skimmer's read. ATM skimming losses were down over 40% the first month. Apparently it's not 100% foolproof.

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FuryOfFirestorm
April 7, 2009 9:49 PM
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The next time someone reports these to the police, the cops should leave the skimmers alone, except for the addition of a hidden tracking device. When the thief comes for the skimmer, the police can track him home and catch him. As a bonus, they'll probably find out all the other crimes/scams the asshole is running...

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econobiker
April 8, 2009 2:12 PM
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@FuryOfFirestorm: The \"hidden tracking devices\" only work on TV because they are fake...and they are very small on TV for the same reason.


This is just like it only takes 2 hours to process DNA results on TV versus the 2 to 4 weeks in the real world- with a \"rush\" on it.

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Sudonum
April 7, 2009 10:01 PM
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@FuryOfFirestorm:
Did you read the article where they said that some skimmers can transmit the data via 3G network so the thief never has to retrieve the skimmer?

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problemcat
May 4, 2009 4:46 PM
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@Sudonum: You're right, Sudonum. I'm married to an information security manager for a fortune 50 company...the horror stories he could tell you... Let's just say that this isn't the worst out there. Folks have other ways of getting information from stores without ever leaving their cars in the first place.

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Bs Baldwin
April 7, 2009 11:29 PM
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@Sudonum:

True, but most skimmers don't to keep size down.

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From the cubicle of PGibbons
April 8, 2009 6:04 PM
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@Bs Baldwin: How much data can a small movie and a text file be? Cost of a picturemail.

Cheaper than getting busted...

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batsy
April 7, 2009 10:57 PM
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Why aren't these people using their skills for something... I don't know, more productive? Something legal?

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econobiker
April 8, 2009 2:15 PM
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@batsy: Same arguement could be made for the Nigerian email scammers who spend hundreds of hours trolling for victims.


But the payout could end up being hundreds of thousands of dollars that some embezelling US based church accountant sends to a scammer who could only make $200 a month working legally in his country.

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Brawndo_The_Thirst_Mutliator
April 8, 2009 1:54 PM
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@batsy: Because doing things legal doesn't always get the same amount of payout. Criminal activity is kind of like the stock market, greater risk of loss (prison) greater risk of reward (lots of free money).

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Firethorn
April 8, 2009 2:12 PM
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@Brawndo_The_Thirst_Mutliator:


True statement; though it's more like gambling - most eventually get caught and on average lose money over working legitimately would have paid off.


Of course, I mostly bank on a military base. They'd be really interested in any of this stuff. Too many bored cops. Plus they get to wave the 'federal' conviction stick around. I still check though.

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Bs Baldwin
April 7, 2009 11:28 PM
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Just more stuff that the FTC, FCC, and/or FBI should be banning the sale of. Merchants do not need any of this equipment for legitimate business. Their POS machines come pre-built, the merchant services company gets the machines pre-built from the factory. If the machines breaks, the merchant services company gets the part straight from the factory. There is no need for a middle man in any part of this.

The same can be said for checks bought at an office supply store or third party company, there is no need and fraud increases. This is the type of stuff that the government needs to be cracking down on.

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shepd
April 8, 2009 8:12 PM
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@Bs Baldwin:

I'm not an EE (although I dabbled with it in College) and even *I* have enough knowledge to construct a magswpie reader/writer from nothing more than the parts you'd find in an old transistor radio (or five). You know, inductors, capacitors, resistors, transistors, etc.

The keypad reader is so easy it's beyond a joke to implement.

The video camera is tougher to replicate, since it requires a CCD. Of course, unless you want to ban all home video cameras and security cameras, I wouldn't need to worry much.

And the smartcards are actually easier to read/write, since they use a very standard interface (one that hooks indirectly up to a standard serial port)*. OF COURSE, banks use two-way encryption and other tactics that would make duplicating a card (supposedly) impossible. Which is unlike the magswipe, which you can actually duplicate with an iron. Yes, an iron.

* - I know how easy these are as I have actually built a smartcard (CAM) reader/writer from spare parts. It required an ATMEGA chip and some firmware for it downloaded from the internet. For those in the know, that should be enough...

So, banning the hardware is about as effective as banning paper and pencil during a war so people can't communicate with the enemy.

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From the cubicle of PGibbons
April 8, 2009 6:08 PM
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@Bs Baldwin: The \"government\" allowed Diebold (you know, the ATM manufacturers) to get involved in creating easily-riggable electronic voting machines with severely less protection than ATM machines. Say what you want about these ATMs, but your checking account is safer than your democracy by a factor of millions.

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Sudonum
April 8, 2009 3:49 PM
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@Bs Baldwin:
My FIL used to own a POS business (Micros Franchise). Do you know what Micros charges for what is basically an HP Printer? What they charge for parts? His techs used to be able to to buy these parts and repair the machines themselves for a fraction of the cost. That makes happy customers and repeat business. Micros basically bought him out to prevent him from undercutting them. He started getting calls from Micros National Accounts for parts and repairs outside his territory.

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z4ce
April 8, 2009 12:36 AM
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@Bs Baldwin:

ERrmm.. yeah.. restrict the hardware.. because NO ONE else in the world needs to read magnetic stripes... You see these everywhere.. gift cards, door access, computer authentication...

Limiting access to the hardware isn't the answer. Heck, my standard dell laptop has a built-in smart card reader that newer credit cards use.

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Anonymous
April 7, 2009 11:52 PM
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Just more stuff that the FTC, FCC, and/or FBI should be banning the sale of.


Except Card Readers have more uses then CC and Debit card readers and banning them won't solve anything, I am sure most of them are already made in China anyway.

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menty666
April 8, 2009 1:00 AM
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I have a device that's attached to my ProPay account for recording credit card information when I sell at craft shows and the like. I always feel a little sketchy with it because it looks and acts a lot like a skimmer. I always make sure to tell my customers to watch on their statement for the charge from my business in the amount of ___. If they look nervous I make sure to tell them that my device is encrypted and I never see their complete number. Surprisingly, a lot of folks *don't* seem at all nervous about it.

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From the cubicle of PGibbons
April 8, 2009 6:09 PM
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@menty666: One more reason to use credit cards instead of debit cards.

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turkeyspam
April 8, 2009 6:20 AM
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I wonder how many more of these will have to be found, or worse, how many people will be victimized by them before they pass a law concerning it and make banks inspect their machines. And as another poster said: someone give these people a job! They are obviously smart.

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threeoutside
April 8, 2009 12:52 PM
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No one's asked this here, so I will: How, exactly, do I make sure my credit card never leaves my sight in a restaurant? Follow the waiter back to the back and watch him use it? Or better yet, insist that I perform the credit card procedure myself? I've read this many times over the years and I've never seen a good answer.

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smonkey
April 8, 2009 4:58 PM
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@threeoutside: When I was going across Scandinavia they acutaly would bring the machine to your table. It was about the size of a large calculator. You did the tip and everything on the machine and that was it. No one else touched your card.

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layton59
April 8, 2009 2:01 PM
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@threeoutside: I always pay for my meal at the cash register. Some restaurants do not like that because of deadbeats walking out on the bills. If the waiter/waitress has a problem, then insist they walk you to the cashier. That makes both sides of the transaction safer. I also write \"Tip On Table\" on the tip line when I leave the tip on the table, so that they can not go back and add in a bogus tip.

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problemcat
May 4, 2009 4:53 PM
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@layton59: \"Tip On Table\" written in is an excellent idea! I'll have to remember that one, because I've had them write in a bogus tip before, or actually, they altered the amount I wrote in. Grr.

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Jevia
April 8, 2009 4:40 PM
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@layton59: Not every restaurant has a cashier, however. What I don't understand is why America doesn't use the hand-held devices they have in Europe (well, in France at least). When you want to pay, the waiter brings the hand-held scanner and puts in the amount, you scan in your card, indicate if its debit or credit, push PIN if necessary, then accept the amount. A receipt prints out, which you can then add on the tip and you sign it. Your card never has to leave your hand.

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problemcat
May 4, 2009 4:55 PM
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@Jevia: Interesting. And what's to keep a shady employee from attaching a skimmer from one of these hand-held devices? Or, better yet, just use their own machine for some of the transactions?

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menty666
April 9, 2009 4:35 AM
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@Jevia: It cuts into slim profit margins. Right now x number of wait staff can all take turns using a handful of terminals. With individual wireless machines you need several machines plus extras to cover breakage/malfunctions, plus training and infrastructure. Then you have to factor in upkeep cost on the portable terminals.

I'm not saying it's not a good idea, just that unless you build a restaurant from scratch it's not cost effective. Even with a chain restaurant they have a boxed implementation approach with connections to the home office inventory management and sales reporting systems. Introducing new tech into that costs them more money in hardware, software integration, training, and customer service costs when orders go bad and a meal or two needs to be comped.

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vermontwriter
April 8, 2009 3:20 PM
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I have to say, I wonder if I really take the time to check out an ATM looking for hidden cameras, false covers, etc. how long before I'm being detained for questioning because of my suspicious activities. My credit union's ATMs all have security cameras on the machine. Seems to me there has to be a better way.

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From the cubicle of PGibbons
April 8, 2009 6:13 PM
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@vermontwriter: How about bringing a very bright light along and shining it upward in the area where a potential camera could hide? I think there are ways to kill the optics, or at least temporarily disable them.

For years, I have routinely covered the keypad with one hand and punched in numbers beneath - including a few \"phony\" actions to throw off the scent.

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sijrd
April 8, 2009 5:22 PM
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The only way to protect yourself is to protect your PIN. When using your ATM/Check Card/Credit Card shield your entry with your other hand and body. Someone could be watching you enter your pin from behind. They can't do anything with card info without the PIN. Don't forget to do this when using a POS or ATM.

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Danny Livewire
April 8, 2009 8:19 PM
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This is why using shady ATMs can have much more than a $2 service charge...

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