![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-57429-100x100.png\")
If you can get a skimmer for $18 then I think I'm in the wrong line of work.
If you can get a skimmer for $18 then I think I'm in the wrong line of work.
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Why haven't the banks upgraded these ATMs so the card skimmers are hard to attach? My bank, Royal Bank, has machines protruding card slot. It seems like a simple and cheap fix.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-355966-100x100.png\")
@andrewe: We've begun a program of attaching what we call \"Anti-Skimming Devices\" on card readers about a month ago. They are similar to what you described, are green with a black lock symbol on them. They are not on all of our ATM's yet, the program is a pilot to see how effective they are.
@Timeus:
yay for royal bank, the card slot is a crazy looking thing now, however the drive through ones are still the old ones but luckily theres a video camera basically pointing right at the machine but not at the keys so it can see whatever you move toward the machine...including a skimmer
@andrewe: Even they can be screwed with.
Its basically impossible to use a scanner without some way in which they can hack it without the bank taking a PRO-active measure of checking the scanner every couple of hours.
\"I assume that no one has established standard procedures to handle this kind of thing yet\"
The skimmer is evidence of an attempted crime against you. As the victim, you have standing to file a criminal complaint.
In my opinion, the bank has nothing to do with it, and the police should be immediately notified. In fact, you shouldn't even be touching the damn thing, so you don't destroy any physical evidence there might be.
Giving it to the bank will probably mean they throw it away and keep it quiet so people don't get scared to use their ATMs.
@David Mays: I cannot begin to tell you how misinformed you are. Following that line of thought, I think we should let our customers know clearly, what our procedures are when this sort of things happen, if anything, to avoid the kinds of statements you made above.
We do not simply throw it away and hope no one finds out. Stop being so pessimistic please. The bank has \"everything\" to do with it. If we get notified, we can begin notifying all potentially effected customers and begin the process of safeguarding their accounts. If we don't get notified, potentially hundreds, maybe thousands of accounts are at risk for fraud depending on how busy a particular ATM is.
@Timeus:
Of course the bank would be notified - by the police whose job it is to investigate crimes. And obviously you're uptight about this story, because you're speaking as a bank employee of some kind. If you actually read the story, you would see that the bank in question didn't want the skimmer from the customer.
And as to \"stop being so pessimistic\"; how about the banks give us a reason not to be, for once.
@SpongeSteveSquareDave_GitEmSteveDave:
Yes, destroying evidence is a crime. Do you really think that would stop the bank from doing so? How many stories have we read on here about corporations violating the law???
That's very narrow conspiracy theory minded... Why even trust the feds then? You see stories about them being corrupt to... or even the government.. you see stories about them too.. or even your neighbor... or your family...
Timeus has been very helpful in his replies if you have read the previous post about skimmers. And he has nothing to do with this certain bank in Atlanta. If he was part of a greedy corporation wouldn't he encourage her to go out and spread the news that X competitor bank had card skimmers on their machines?
@miburo:
Conspiracy theory minded? No, it's called a healthy dose of skepticism.
Anyone who thinks they should blindly trust the banks needs their head examined.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-86807-100x100.png\")
@Timeus: Why do you keep saying \"we\"? We don't know who \"we\" are. The bank in question apparently didn't give a shit.
@Timeus: In fact, you shouldn't even be touching the damn thing, so you don't destroy any physical evidence there might be.
Despite what you see on TV, prints off something that is in public are just about useless in court. That includes the outside of a car, outside of a window, etc.
@David Mays: They probably will not \"throw it away\", unless they want to get fired by corporate security. Plus, destroying evidence used in the commission of a crime/possibly a felony is a crime.
A picture of the device on the ATM would be a lot more useful than just pictures of the device alone.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-129735-100x100.png\")
@rbb: The consumerist story that ran a few weeks ago referenced a site that had photos of skimmers installed on the ATMs. They were extremely difficult to spot in most cases. You can view the pics at: [www.networkworld.com]
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-243013-100x100.png\")
@rbb: That's what I'm looking for. I'd love to see what it looked like when it was on the ATM, so I can see what tipped the person off. The best I can figure now is that clear-ish plastic part in the middle, where you can see part of a cord. Then see pics of the ATM afterwards, on how it should be.
Believe me, I check every time now, but it's still hard to figure since there's no standard.
@rbb: Agreed. Unless this was stuck on the ATM crooked or falling off somehow, how can you tell? This looks just like the actual Bank of America ATM card slot, down to the clear plastic part for the flashing green light (though I imagine that wouldn't look quite the same in use).
now people are going to be breaking atm's all over the place looking for skimmers and I wont be able to withdrawal my money anymore! damn you all!
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-117360-100x100.png\")
@masterying01: Take your chances at merchants that offer PIN Debit cashback then.
If your luck is bad enough, you're hosed either way.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-307161-100x100.png\")
@masterying01: Yeah, with my luck, I'd go \"Hey! A skimmer!\" RIIIIIIP...and then the defacing an ATM charge.
I agree a pic of it on an ATM would help. I'm not sure if i would have spotted it if i needed cash in a hurry.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-505944-100x100.png\")
I noticed one of the ATMs attached to a branch of my bank has added a clear, bubble-like enclosure over the card slot, no doubt to prevent this sort of thing. The branch closest to me closed their drive-up ATM and now only offers the walk-up by the front door, where I suppose it's easy for the staff to check for the presence of overnight additions.
Anyone here from law enforcement that knows what crime has been committed by this and what should be done by all parties concerned?
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-65988-100x100.png\")
@Blueskylaw: Conspiracy to commit fraud would probably fly. Or the devices might meet the standard for being burglary tools--those laws are pretty broad.
@Blueskylaw: Until the skimmed cards are actually used, there isn't any theft or loss by any \"victim\". There is no such thing as \"attempted theft\" and \"theft\" of a number is not a theft until it involves actual loss. This would have to come under a computer crimes or a fraud statute...and most district attorneys don't like to prosecute those because they're too complicated for juries to understand.
@Canino: I would imagine that vandalism of private property may play into it though, even if no actual theft occurred. But, I disagree with you about the theft thing though. If I broke into your car and stole your CDs, that would be theft regardless of whether or not I listened to them.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-481129-100x100.png\")
@SabreDC: They're not stealing your physical card, though. Just the information from it. It would be like them ripping your CDs and then putting them back, without you ever noticing.
@radiantchains: I disagree. If I hack into your bank and wire money from your bank account to an offshore account, I didn't steal any physical dollars from your account. Theft can also include electronic information. It doesn't matter that the thief didn't take your physical card; they copied the information off your card without your consent (\"you\" hypothetically speaking). While it may not be the legal definition of \"theft\", it certainly fits the legal definition of fraud. Fraud includes \"intent to defraud\".
where in Atlanta was this found?
So, taking bets on how long it's going to be before a paranoid reader tries to remove a skimmer only to destroy an ATM. I say within the next two months.
@Andrew Mussey:
Yeah, seriously. I'm even on the lookout for them now but I don't want to be the idiot to be touching/trying to remove the card reader to find out it's the real thing and having myself on camera looking like a scammer.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-18555-100x100.png\")
There are standard procedures that banks follow for these things. Finding out what those procedures actually are is going to be extremely difficult unless you have a need to know.
It would be kinda like asking an armored car driver what his route is because... ya know... you're the curious type.
Diebold (the mfgr of most of the ATMs out there) has changed their designs lately to make it more difficult to install these things but it's not impossible.
Common sense rules. If it looks suspicious, don't use it.
@aja175: I agree. BOA primarily uses Diebold and NCR machines. We have some Valero machines as well at Diamond -shamrock gas stations in the south, but our primary vendors are Diebold and NCR.
These are not nearly as impressive as the banks' taxpayer dollar skimmers.
Isn't it interesting that both banks and law enforcement cry \"beware of identity theft\" but when the ball is in their court they drop it.
@Drew Biondo: EXACTLY
\"I asked the police what to do; they said give it to the bank. I asked the bank what to do, they said give it to the police.\"
That's pretty much what happened to me when I had my identity stolen.
@Definer-not-defined: That's why, if I ever find one of these, I will take it home and destroy it. It can't be considered \"destruction of evidence\" if no party is willing to admit it as evidence. Thus, it is just destruction of random plastic crap, and I do believe that is still legal.
@Drew Biondo: I won't lie, skimming devices are still uncommon to come across. I can't tell you how many times we've spoken to a technician who says, \"Well what do you know? I've heard of these things but this is the first time I ever saw one, what do you want me to do with it?\" Not to scare anyone, but I've spoken to more than one police officer who has said, \"Ok, what do you want us to do with it?\"
The bank has to tell these people what to do with them, a lot of the time. Some PD will hold the device as evidence while our investigations unit tries to build a case and find out who was responsible, some PD simply destroy it, it seems to vary frm one police department to the next.
I did some research for point of sale and store cards equipment a few years ago for a business I was involved in. I was a bit creeped out how easy it is to get enough equipment to read and duplicate magnetic cards.
I am in the habit now of grabbing the hardware around the slot and giving it a little pull to see if it comes off. Is that enough? I would be interested to know how easy it was for Kelly to detach the device.
@Russell McLean: Yeah, I must look a bit OCD but I can't use an ATM now without tapping, scratching and rubbing every surface to check for stick-ons :-)
I atually found that by going into the bank, taking out cash and budgeting myself, I have been able to save money and avoid card skimmers, transaction fees and other complications. To be honest, since I decided to step backwards in time four years ago, I have only had one instance where I was flummoxed and had to return the next day to make my purchase. This actually turned out pretty good as it gave me the time second guess my purchase and I was happier with it in the end.
It is great that people are noticing the card skimmers, and that there is great advice on what to look for, and how to react if and when you find one. I do hope that a standard procedure can be put into place, even if it is on a bank by bank basis, or through your local police force, for reporting these things.
As a designer, I believe it is on us and the engineers to get many steps ahead of the scammers and design ATM's which are impossible to attach skimmers to.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-488475-100x100.png\")
@howman:
I just get cash back when I make a purchase. It's easier than trying to find an ATM that won't charge me a fee because it's not my bank.
This is extremely frustrating. I work as a Analyst in BOA's ATM Network Support Department, and as far as I know, unless I am mistaken, we did not receive any call about this possible site yesterday.
We have procedures for situations where an ATM skimming device is found. There's almost always a number on the ATM to call in the case of any emergency, that goes directly to our Corporate Security Department. They will contact us, unless a customer gets to my department first via Customer Service. We would immediately shutdown the ATM, dispatch a Second level technician to the site to evaluate the situation, remove the device, and send out a Privacy Event Notification to our investigations department as well as dispatch the police to meet our vendor tech on-site. We would also pull all ATM logs and submit that information with the Privacy Event Notification to notify all customers who were potentially effected.
In the future, if you ever come across a skimming device on an ATM, if you have the time, I know we appreciate a call to be notified. In this case, if anyone in my Department was notified about this device pictured above, and no one took action, they would lose their job. Trust me when I say, when a device is found, \"alarm and whistles\" go off in my department, upper management is notified and everyone gets involved.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-68654-100x100.png\")
@Timeus: interesting information. it sounds to me like although your particular department seems to have a solid protocol for dealing with this kind of problem. unfortunately, it also sounds like other departments either don't have as clear of a plan or aren't implementing it properly.
perhaps you could communicate this with your superiors. it sounds like other BOA departments should either know to call ANS immediately upon report of a skimmer, or develop a similar SOP to ensure that the integrity of your network remains intact.
@Timeus:
I've called the number on the ATM to report ATM problems (for TD Bank, not BoA) and the attitude was as close to \"we don't care\" as possible.
In this case, someone had attacked the three ATMs at my bank, destroying the card slot on one, another one was permanently stuck on \"TEMPORARILY OUT OF SERVICE\" and the last one the card slot had been damaged enough that I was the last customer that managed to use the thing. The ATMs were, however, repaired after a day or two (Perhaps because they were attached to a bank, I can't imagine it had anything to do with my call with the attitude I got on the phone). I switched banks a while after.
Another, separate, experience calling a similar number for Bank of Montreal when a few rolls of their proprietary receipt paper had been left lying around all night also resulted in the same uninterested attitude. I also switched banks over this one. I mean, seriously, do you really want it to be this easy for criminals to forge bank receipts? *sigh*
Note to banks: Take people calling your ATM numbers seriously. Or not. Up to you. I'm now with a bank that seems to give a crap (for the moment).
@shepd: I'll be honest that's very surprising to hear, sad as well. I know personally I take great pride in our fleet of ATMs. ANS is one of the best places I've ever worked. i love it at BOA. I would certainly hope anyone from BOA who got a call about an ATM issue would convey a sense of urgency to correct whatever the problem might be. Heaven knows though ultimately. I just do what I can.
@Timeus:
I work for Loomis and deal with B of A network support from time to time, and B of A machines running Aptra have to be the nicest machines out there (from an armored couriers view at least). I check for these skimming devices every cash swap or deposit pull I do, and have all our customers ATM network numbers in my phone in case there is a problem.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-410733-100x100.png\")
@Timeus: As someone who worked for BofA for many years until about six months ago, I can guarantee you that customer service is most likely NOT trained in this procedure. I don't recall it even being in the online procedure guide called Solution Center. I worked in the ATM/Check Card disputes department, so we got these calls routed to my team ALL the time. We never received this training in my department. And because outbound calls were discouraged (increases handle time, etc.) I doubt more than a few of us ever bothered to call ATM Network Support to inquire. It's only one of many things wrong with call centers all over the country - not just BofA.
@lauy: I should have been more clear on my reply, I apologize. Like I said to Poisonous Taoist, ANS has procedures for when a device is found. I cannot speak for what kind of procedures Customer Service would have, if any at all, when faced with this type of situation. I agree with you yes.
@Poisonous Taoist: I apologize, I should specified that ATM Network Support has procedures for when a skimming device is found. I couldn't speak for what Customer Service or any other department got trained on.
I was able to scan the barcode using my G1, but it didn't find anything.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-461138-100x100.png\")
Am I the only one that \"hides the keys\" when entering a PIN? You never know if there is a camera recording you entering your PIN, or someone watching you enter it.
I guess I'm paranoid, but I hit the keys with all four of my fingers held together so it's not clear which finger is hitting which key. Or I hold my four fingers together over the keypad and hit the key with my thumb, tucked under the fingers.
I just wondered if anyone else did that, too.
@Julia789: You're certainly not the only one.
For purchases, I almost always use a credit card (I took good care to avoid applying for cards issued by creditors who aren't known for good CS) anyway.
For ATM cash withdrawls, I guess I'm very paranoid. Aside from quickly inspecting the ATM for abnormalities, I have a habit of covering my fingers with a large black wallet and making \"scrambling motions\" with my fingers as well.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-433532-100x100.png\")
@Julia789: Yep, I 'casually' hold something - piece of paper, etc. - over the keying-in hand. I feel kind of foolish, but that's what it's come to.
I don't even do that. I hold my hand over it and if the people hovering over me are offended, well, then they can just back the hell off!!!!!!!
@Julia789:
No, you're not the only one.
People in line behind me especially make me paranoid. If I don't feel like I can do that, I do the transaction as credit.
@HogwartsAlum:
@usa_gatekeeper:
@azntg:
I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who does this. I feel less silly about it now!
Not only the hidden cameras that have been found alongside ATM skimmers, but people in line behind me make me paranoid as well.
In fact, I remember reading one story about a skimmer a couple of years ago where one guy installed the skimmer, then his lady friend would follow people to the ATM, pretending to be next in line and pretending to send text messages while in line. She was texting the PIN numbers to her partner.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-578479-100x100.png\")
If you're reading, Kelly - where in Atlanta? I'm in Vinings and have a BoA account, though I seldom use the ATMs.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-1797-100x100.png\")
if anyone in my Department was notified about this device pictured above, and no one took action, they would lose their job.
What about Bank of America tellers who give out money to somebody who presents ONLY a driver's license, and yet, tellers don't demand a bankcard, demand that the person punch in a PIN, or check the person's signature?
On seven separate occasions, in Texas and in California, B of A's tellers gave out my money ($12,000 total) to women who presented ONLY a fake driver's license in my name -- with the wrong expiration date.
I investigated and it seems B of A's computers aren't connected -- at many branches (a highly expensive procedure when a bank has gobbled up a bajillion little banks). According to my investigation, in many cases, the tellers CANNOT check these signature or read your bankcard; they just HOPE it's you.
When I complained about this -- instead of just saying, \"Oh, okay!\" to B of A's apparently making their customers more attractive victims to identity thieves with such practices -- the bank sent me a letter firing me as customer and telling me I had about a month to get my money out.
Any comments on this level of \"security\"?
@Amy Alkon: A license is perfectly adequate for identification, though if bars have magnetic readers banks should too.
Anyway, if the money was returned to you I don't see what the problem is. Banks hand out money to people with no ID and just a note saying \"Give me money\"
@orlo: You'd have a problem too if the money was returned only after an extended period of time was expended just trying to establish that you weren't the one who took the money to begin with.
Personally, in some respects, I think banks are no different than the TSA in terms of maintaining a security theater. Perhaps I've grown too pessimistic in this respect, I shudder to think how the banks will use their \"latest security procedure\" (e.g.: Chip and PIN, if it ever gets implemented here) against us if the crooks find a way to subvert it. God help the first few victims when this happens.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-917643-100x100.png\")
@Timeus: This is a fascinating discussion. Thanks for weighing in. It looks like the problem here is that the skimmer report was never escalated to anyone who was really accountable for it.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-932865-100x100.png\")
A couple months ago I was at the Toronto Dominion at 14th and 5th and noticed that the keypad was loose. Not sure if it was a skimmer or not, but I went in and reported it. Didn't have any unusual activity on the account, so it was probably not. Better if you see something out of the ordinary to say something.
Nope, I wouldn't even attempt to comment on it since that's not an area I work in.
What to do? After getting the run-around from the Po-Po and the Bank, I guess the only thing to do is revise it to make it better and send card numbers to YOUR account.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-706988-100x100.png\")
@JN2: I believe the correct procedure after no one else will help, and if you can find them is to call the A-Team.
It would be neat if ATMs had something like lighted ring around/close to the card slot (or even the entire card slot) that changed colors and the ATM could ask before you enter your PIN, to select what color the ring is. There would need to be a way to override if someone couldn't see the colors. At the very least the system could alert the bank that the ATM needs to be inspected or if enough people get it wrong, just shut itself off.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-174344-100x100.png\")
Kelly I actually use that ATM a lot. Also I think I saw one at the Ansley BoA, though I haven't been back to check it. It was translucent GREEN and plastic, and It looked quality enough to be a design on the machine, though it's the only machine I've seen with a lighted green plastic card slot that stuck out about an inch.
The MAIN PROBLEM is that BoA has DOZENS of types of ATMs and they all look different. So it's hard to tell if the ATM is supposed to look one way or another. I think it should be bank personnel responsibility to check every ATM for card skimmers on a regular basis, like everyday. There should be no reason an ATM at a bank location should have this problem. I can understand if it is not a bank location.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-248759-100x100.png\")
Wouldn't this sort of crime be handled by the FBI?
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-21984-100x100.png\")
@Alessar: Only if the skimmer had a threat to the president written on it...
The FBI is clueless about these \"minor\" crimes either until a national corporation hand feeds them the evidence of a national scam crew or until the \"right\" politician is affected and starts screaming...
Compare this to the difficulties they seem to have with data breaches that expose(d) millions of records. This is small fish to them...
With that said, it looks like its time to get online for some card readers and then crank up the old plastic vacuum forming machine make skimmer shells. I am willing to bet that , right now, there is no law against making and selling ATM skimmers- just using them.
It's shocking to me that banks don't have people who check their machines every couple of hours for tampering.
It takes what, ten minutes?
Just another notch on the post, agreeing with the fact that banks could give jack squat about their customers identity.
@josh8241: That would increase labor. Which was what atms were around to eliminate in the first place.
(As an aside, I think that ATM fees were the first step for banks learning that \"negative action\" fees were more profitable than actually lending money. This lead down the route to huge overdraft fees, automatic overdraft protection, and non-sequential posting of debits etc that we find the banking industry slurping on now.)
@econobiker: I'm just talking about someone looking at the darn thing on their way into the bank, and then looking at it on their way out. They work there. They should know when their ATM doesn't look right.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-252038-100x100.png\")
this should be a new pasttime. Hunting for skimmers on atms. And hang them on your wall like trophies!
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-121022-100x100.png\")
I tell you what they should be doing is disable the skimmer but put them back on the ATM machines. Then have the police sit in an unmarked police car across the street with binoculars or something just to \"wait out\" the perp.
After sticking a few of these jerks in jail maybe the number of skimmer scamming incidents will decline.
One incident like this, generally isn't considered \"worth the time\" by the police. As someone pointed out, no crime took place, as the \"skimmer\" was still present.
It's tough to say, but think of it like a quote from Fight Club -
\"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.\"
That's nothing to do with any company policy regarding the issue. I'm simply talking about one solidarity issue. Always worth reporting to the appropriate company though.
Call Bank of America and ask if they would like to send a courier over to pick up the customer information or they would prefer you to put it on the curb with a BIG RED SIGN on it!
My credit union has brightly colored plastic guard devices around the ATM slots, making it impossible to attach a skimmer. They also made sure members are aware of what these look like.
I think that we should go to the European model of requiring all debit and credit transactions to have a PIN, and to have portable readers at businesses so your card is never out of your sight (where someone could have a skimmer under the counter/behind the bar/etc.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-406173-100x100.png\")
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-387114-100x100.png\")
Interesting that it has a bar code; just where does one go to buy one of these off the shelf for 18$?
@bigroblee:
I'm sure DealExtreme will get these in soon enough, and most likely for under $10
@bigroblee: I think the sticker is just there to protect the circuit behind it or to keep the wires flat. It could just have easily been a bit of duct tape.
@bigroblee: It's for an Adidas Woman's Response Court Skort.
[www.buy.com]
So the scammer is a girl into tennis, or someone going out with someone who plays tennis. Can't blame them of course, girls in tennis outfits are hot. Unless they let themselves go.....
@bigroblee: I wasn't able to find the UPC code but the prefix might belong to Agron Product Line Development System in Los Angeles, but I think they just handle some clothing lines.